None.
<sandro> Present: AlexHall,AndySeaborne,AntoineZimmermann,ArnaudLeHors,CharlesGreer,DanBrickley,DavidWood,FabienGandon,GavinCarothers,GuusSchreiber,JeremyCarroll,LeeFeigenbaum,PatrickHayes,PeterPatel-Schneider,RichardCyganiak,SandroHawke,ScottBauer,SouripriyaDas,SteveHarris,TedThibodeau,ZheWu
15:55:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-rdf-wg-irc ←
15:55:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:55:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
15:55:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes ←
15:55:25 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:55:25 <trackbot> Date: 14 December 2011
15:57:04 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started ←
15:57:11 <Zakim> +Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus ←
15:58:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:58:38 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
15:58:39 <Zakim> +Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus ←
15:58:52 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
15:58:52 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:59:04 <Guus> [to Andy: I hope you can scribe, as I haven't seen Olivier for some time]
Guus Schreiber: [to Andy: I hope you can scribe, as I haven't seen Olivier for some time] ←
15:59:38 <Zakim> +sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro ←
15:59:52 <Zakim> +charlesgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: +charlesgreer ←
16:00:31 <Zakim> +Arnaud_LeHors
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud_LeHors ←
16:00:50 <Zakim> +BobF
Zakim IRC Bot: +BobF ←
16:01:10 <CharlesGreer> zakim, CharlesGreer is me
Charles Greer: zakim, CharlesGreer is me ←
16:01:11 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, BobF is me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, BobF is me ←
16:01:16 <Zakim> sorry, CharlesGreer, I do not recognize a party named 'CharlesGreer'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, CharlesGreer, I do not recognize a party named 'CharlesGreer' ←
16:01:20 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
16:01:22 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
16:01:24 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it ←
16:01:32 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (36%), AndyS (59%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (36%), AndyS (59%) ←
16:01:38 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
16:01:40 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
16:01:46 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
16:01:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, charlesgreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, charlesgreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, OpenLink_Software ←
16:01:48 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:01:51 <AndyS> scribe: Andy
(Scribe set to Andy Seaborne)
16:01:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, CharlesGreer, Arnaud1, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, FabGandon, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, mischat, SteveH, AndyS, mdmdm, davidwood, danbri, manu1, trackbot, NickH, manu,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AZ, CharlesGreer, Arnaud1, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, FabGandon, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, mischat, SteveH, AndyS, mdmdm, davidwood, danbri, manu1, trackbot, NickH, manu, ←
16:01:59 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
16:02:01 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP ←
16:02:02 <CharlesGreer> zakim, charlesgreer is me
Charles Greer: zakim, charlesgreer is me ←
16:02:05 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
16:02:09 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:02:13 <Zakim> +BernHyland
Zakim IRC Bot: +BernHyland ←
16:02:19 <Zakim> +cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri ←
16:02:21 <Zakim> +CharlesGreer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +CharlesGreer; got it ←
16:02:25 <davidwood> zakim, BernHyland is me
David Wood: zakim, BernHyland is me ←
16:02:31 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
16:02:48 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it ←
16:02:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, CharlesGreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, MacTed (muted), davidwood, cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, CharlesGreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, MacTed (muted), davidwood, cygri ←
16:03:15 <Zakim> + +33.1.41.41.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.1.41.41.aaaa ←
16:03:22 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
16:03:27 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[Sophia] ←
16:03:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, AZ, CharlesGreer, Arnaud1, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, FabGandon, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, mischat, SteveH, AndyS, mdmdm, davidwood, danbri, manu1, trackbot, NickH,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cygri, AZ, CharlesGreer, Arnaud1, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, FabGandon, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, mischat, SteveH, AndyS, mdmdm, davidwood, danbri, manu1, trackbot, NickH, ←
16:03:35 <AZ> zakim, +33.1.41.41.aaaa is me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, +33.1.41.41.aaaa is me ←
16:03:37 <CharlesGreer> zakim, CharlesGreer is me
Charles Greer: zakim, CharlesGreer is me ←
16:03:42 <Zakim> ... manu, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu, sandro, ericP ←
16:03:42 <FabGandon> Zakim, +33.1.41.41.aaaa is me
Fabien Gandon: Zakim, +33.1.41.41.aaaa is me ←
16:03:43 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:04:01 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:04:12 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
16:04:14 <Zakim> +CharlesGreer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +CharlesGreer; got it ←
16:04:18 <Zakim> sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named '+33.1.41.41.aaaa'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named '+33.1.41.41.aaaa' ←
16:04:20 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:04:20 <MacTed> Zakim, CharlesGreer is charlesgreer
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, CharlesGreer is charlesgreer ←
16:04:28 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:04:28 <FabGandon> Zakim, aaaa is me
Fabien Gandon: Zakim, aaaa is me ←
16:04:35 <Zakim> +gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc ←
16:04:36 <Zakim> +charlesgreer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +charlesgreer; got it ←
16:04:42 <Zakim> sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' ←
16:04:53 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:04:56 <AndyS> Guus: welcome
Guus Schreiber: welcome ←
16:05:42 <FabGandon> zakim, who is on the phone?
Fabien Gandon: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:05:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, charlesgreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, MacTed (muted), davidwood, cygri, AZ, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Sophia], gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, sandro, charlesgreer, Arnaud_LeHors, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, MacTed (muted), davidwood, cygri, AZ, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Sophia], gavinc ←
16:05:43 <pfps> minutes look OK to me
Peter Patel-Schneider: minutes look OK to me ←
16:05:55 <FabGandon> zakim, [Sophia] is me
Fabien Gandon: zakim, [Sophia] is me ←
16:05:55 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +FabGandon; got it ←
16:06:20 <AndyS> Accept minutes of telecon of 2011-11-30
Accept minutes of telecon of 2011-11-30 ←
16:06:28 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb ←
16:06:38 <AndyS> Topic: review action items
16:06:51 <AndyS> (action 119 is done as well)
(ACTION-119 is done as well) ←
16:07:20 <AndyS> Actions for review - accepted and closed
Actions for review - accepted and closed ←
16:07:27 <AndyS> CLOSE action-122
CLOSE ACTION-122 ←
16:07:28 <trackbot> ACTION-122 Add list of XSD types to Concepts (assuming no objection from PatH or pfps) closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-122 Add list of XSD types to Concepts (assuming no objection from PatH or pfps) closed ←
16:07:31 <AndyS> CLOSE action-123
CLOSE ACTION-123 ←
16:07:31 <trackbot> ACTION-123 Summarize rdf:XMLLiteral options on the list closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-123 Summarize rdf:XMLLiteral options on the list closed ←
16:07:48 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
16:08:13 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
16:08:47 <Zakim> +??P39
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P39 ←
16:09:00 <swh> Zakim, ??P39 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P39 is me ←
16:09:00 <Zakim> +swh; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +swh; got it ←
16:09:08 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:09:08 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:10:32 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
16:10:32 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
16:11:23 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:11:23 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:12:50 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
16:12:50 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
16:13:30 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:13:30 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:13:40 <PatH> will do.
Patrick Hayes: will do. ←
16:15:27 <pfps> good schedule
Peter Patel-Schneider: good schedule ←
16:15:33 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
16:15:45 <AndyS> next telecons - 21/Dec; skip 28th and then 4/Jan
next telecons - 21/Dec; skip 28th and then 4/Jan ←
16:15:48 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:15:57 <AndyS> Sandro: at risk for 21/Dec
Sandro Hawke: at risk for 21/Dec ←
16:16:04 <swh> regrets for 21st
Steve Harris: regrets for 21st ←
16:16:08 <AndyS> ... but go ahead
... but go ahead ←
16:16:17 <Arnaud> I don't think I'll be able to make it next week either
Arnaud Le Hors: I don't think I'll be able to make it next week either ←
16:16:21 <Souri> regrets for 21-Dec and 28-Dec
Souripriya Das: regrets for 21-Dec and 28-Dec ←
16:16:55 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:17:14 <sandro> q+ to suggest a little discussion of LDEP workshop
Sandro Hawke: q+ to suggest a little discussion of LDEP workshop ←
16:18:08 <AndyS> Topic: Named Graphs
16:18:19 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0002.html
Sandro Hawke: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0002.html ←
16:18:37 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
16:18:55 <sandro> andy: graph literals in RDF graph, like N3
Andy Seaborne: graph literals in RDF graph, like N3 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:19:30 <sandro> andy: this isn't how they are used much, in the wild. and graph literals are quite big.
Andy Seaborne: this isn't how they are used much, in the wild. and graph literals are quite big. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:20:18 <sandro> andy: case 2 is what I though NGs were originally about. like the first one, but it's talking about the literals.
Andy Seaborne: case 2 is what I though NGs were originally about. like the first one, but it's talking about the literals. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:20:46 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
16:20:46 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
16:20:52 <sandro> andy: the IRI :graphLiteral1 is naming the literal. maybe :IRI_for_Graph_Literal_1
Andy Seaborne: the IRI :graphLiteral1 is naming the literal. maybe :IRI_for_Graph_Literal_1 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:21:04 <sandro> pat: literal or value?
Patrick Hayes: literal or value? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:21:14 <sandro> andy: Really IRI of value, I think.
Andy Seaborne: Really IRI of value, I think. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:21:35 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:21:36 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:21:52 <sandro> andy: Case 3a. Putting the Web in, referencing things, doing gets on them....
Andy Seaborne: Case 3a. Putting the Web in, referencing things, doing gets on them.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:22:14 <sandro> ... Using graph value, then talking about the GET operation that caused you to get it.
Sandro Hawke: ... Using graph value, then talking about the GET operation that caused you to get it. ←
16:22:49 <sandro> ... there's a URI, but it's different from where you go the data
Sandro Hawke: ... there's a URI, but it's different from where you go the data ←
16:23:22 <sandro> ... Case 3b, Sandro's Rolling Snapshot, similar, but it's the PUBLISHER who does it.
Sandro Hawke: ... Case 3b, Sandro's Rolling Snapshot, similar, but it's the PUBLISHER who does it. ←
16:24:08 <sandro> sandro: not necessarily the original publisher, but yes, the snapshot is a new gbox on the web.
Sandro Hawke: not necessarily the original publisher, but yes, the snapshot is a new gbox on the web. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:24:22 <sandro> andy: Case 4: my understanidng of jjc's web cache example
Andy Seaborne: Case 4: my understanidng of jjc's web cache example [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:24:43 <sandro> ... lossy, you've forgotten when you looked at the gbox. A commonly used pattern.
Sandro Hawke: ... lossy, you've forgotten when you looked at the gbox. A commonly used pattern. ←
16:24:57 <sandro> ... Case 5 -- primary Topic.
Sandro Hawke: ... Case 5 -- primary Topic. ←
16:25:01 <PatH> hi danbri. Andy is reviewing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0002.html
Patrick Hayes: hi danbri. Andy is reviewing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Dec/0002.html ←
16:25:37 <gavinc> ... can't case 4 become case 3b if you care about the details that get "lost" ?
Gavin Carothers: ... can't case 4 become case 3b if you care about the details that get "lost" ? ←
16:26:01 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
16:26:04 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:26:11 <sandro> sandro: CambridgeSemantics has a pattern of bundling data in graphs by a common subject
Sandro Hawke: CambridgeSemantics has a pattern of bundling data in graphs by a common subject [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:26:13 <gavinc> q+
Gavin Carothers: q+ ←
16:26:20 <sandro> (aka Case 5, sort of)
Sandro Hawke: (aka Case 5, sort of) ←
16:26:21 <Guus> ack Guus
Guus Schreiber: ack Guus ←
16:26:28 <Guus> ack gavinc
Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc ←
16:26:29 <LeeF> That's right, Andy's case 5 is pretty similar to how our tools often work by default
Lee Feigenbaum: That's right, Andy's case 5 is pretty similar to how our tools often work by default ←
16:26:32 <Zakim> + +44.117.230.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.117.230.aacc ←
16:26:38 <sandro> Gavin: combing 3b and case 4 -- that works pretty well
Gavin Carothers: combing 3b and case 4 -- that works pretty well [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:27:07 <sandro> gavin: If you apply 3b to 4, you're not losing info.
Gavin Carothers: If you apply 3b to 4, you're not losing info. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:27:21 <sandro> andy: 3b assumes some other machinery.
Andy Seaborne: 3b assumes some other machinery. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:27:23 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:27:29 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:27:45 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
16:28:23 <AndyS> Sandro: insight: I argued that case 5 was bad practice -- I now prefer "RESTful" description.
Sandro Hawke: insight: I argued that case 5 was bad practice -- I now prefer "RESTful" description. ←
16:28:27 <gavinc> sandro, case 5 -can- be restful.
Gavin Carothers: sandro, case 5 -can- be restful. ←
16:28:33 <LeeF> our case-5-quasi way CAN be used with the URIs dereferenceable to get the graph
Lee Feigenbaum: our case-5-quasi way CAN be used with the URIs dereferenceable to get the graph ←
16:28:37 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll
Zakim IRC Bot: +JeremyCarroll ←
16:28:41 <gavinc> +1 LeeF
Gavin Carothers: +1 LeeF ←
16:29:06 <danbri> q+ to sandro
Dan Brickley: q+ to sandro ←
16:29:23 <LeeF> the "naughty" bits of case 5 - as best i can tell - is that you are typing things as both :Graphs and :SomethingElse, when many people think those ought to be disjoint
Lee Feigenbaum: the "naughty" bits of case 5 - as best i can tell - is that you are typing things as both :Graphs and :SomethingElse, when many people think those ought to be disjoint ←
16:29:28 <pfps> I worry about the rather underspecified REST forming an underpinning (of anything).
Peter Patel-Schneider: I worry about the rather underspecified REST forming an underpinning (of anything). ←
16:29:52 <PatH> for the record, I am completely confused by Andy's message and his explanation.
Patrick Hayes: for the record, I am completely confused by Andy's message and his explanation. ←
16:30:09 <AndyS> danbri: RESTful sometimes one primary version. Q: what about multiple representations?
Dan Brickley: RESTful sometimes one primary version. Q: what about multiple representations? ←
16:30:49 <danbri> danbri: when I hear 'restful' I worry a bit, as people often conflate in a notion that the resource has essentially one primary representation (maybe + content neg) and don't also expect other complexities. SO for example, authenticated access to a personalised resource can still be restful.
Dan Brickley: when I hear 'restful' I worry a bit, as people often conflate in a notion that the resource has essentially one primary representation (maybe + content neg) and don't also expect other complexities. SO for example, authenticated access to a personalised resource can still be restful. [ Scribe Assist by Dan Brickley ] ←
16:31:19 <danbri> ...-> which means in practice, for any 'restful' url, you still need to keep track of the state of the deref transaction (user, http headers, date/time etc)
Dan Brickley: ...-> which means in practice, for any 'restful' url, you still need to keep track of the state of the deref transaction (user, http headers, date/time etc) ←
16:31:32 <PatH> does the machinery change the meanings of anything?
Patrick Hayes: does the machinery change the meanings of anything? ←
16:31:54 <pfps> In particular for RDF, how do we reconcile the difference between the graph-centered RDF and object-centered REST and also open/closed difference and single-/multi-valued difference.
Peter Patel-Schneider: In particular for RDF, how do we reconcile the difference between the graph-centered RDF and object-centered REST and also open/closed difference and single-/multi-valued difference. ←
16:32:06 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:32:10 <danbri> q-
Dan Brickley: q- ←
16:32:34 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
16:32:34 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
16:33:42 <sandro> andy: in 3b there isn't a trig document
Andy Seaborne: in 3b there isn't a trig document [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:33:48 <pfps> +1 to PatH
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to PatH ←
16:33:57 <sandro> PatH: I can't make semantic sense of this, and will work on it offline.
Patrick Hayes: I can't make semantic sense of this, and will work on it offline. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:34:43 <AndyS> Guus: possible strawpoll ; and discussions that have arisen
Guus Schreiber: possible strawpoll ; and discussions that have arisen ←
16:34:43 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:34:43 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:35:39 <sandro> cygri: Let's resolve the entire GRAPHS discussion by adopting RDF Dataset as in RDF Concepts. And do nothing on the semantics.
Richard Cyganiak: Let's resolve the entire GRAPHS discussion by adopting RDF Dataset as in RDF Concepts. And do nothing on the semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:35:47 <PatH> zakim, unmute me.
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me. ←
16:35:47 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
16:35:52 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:36:08 <sandro> cygri: Some issues about Default Graph, "no name", MAY have name, something. Datamodel from SPARQL, and nothing in Semantics.
Richard Cyganiak: Some issues about Default Graph, "no name", MAY have name, something. Datamodel from SPARQL, and nothing in Semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:36:16 <gavinc> Yes.
Gavin Carothers: Yes. ←
16:36:19 <sandro> guus: Graph name has to be an IRI?
Guus Schreiber: Graph name has to be an IRI? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:36:23 <sandro> cygri: Yes.
Richard Cyganiak: Yes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:36:24 <AndyS> q+ to ask that TBL emails get to the list
q+ to ask that TBL emails get to the list ←
16:36:26 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
16:37:04 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Close all graph model+semantics issues by accepting the RDF Datasets design [1] as the data model, and by adding no new semantics.
PROPOSED: Close all graph model+semantics issues by accepting the RDF Datasets design [1] as the data model, and by adding no new semantics. ←
16:37:08 <sandro> AndyS: SPARQL docs currently say graph label is IRI, although machinery doesnt really care.
Andy Seaborne: SPARQL docs currently say graph label is IRI, although machinery doesnt really care. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:37:36 <Guus> ack PatH
Guus Schreiber: ack PatH ←
16:37:36 <sandro> PatH: In my email response to Richard, is that it involves Named Graphs. That seems to modify the semantics.
Patrick Hayes: In my email response to Richard, is that it involves Named Graphs. That seems to modify the semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:37:51 <AndyS> PatH: puzzled because it talks about named graph.
Patrick Hayes: puzzled because it talks about named graph. ←
16:37:52 <davidwood> Abstract Syntax for Working with Multiple Graphs: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph
David Wood: Abstract Syntax for Working with Multiple Graphs: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph ←
16:38:00 <sandro> cygri: Leave the Semantics as it is, leave working in RDF Concepts ED, and close all related open issue.
Richard Cyganiak: Leave the Semantics as it is, leave working in RDF Concepts ED, and close all related open issue. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:38:09 <AndyS> cygri: close issue with the current concept doc.
Richard Cyganiak: close issue with the current concept doc. ←
16:38:10 <JeremyCarroll> q+
Jeremy Carroll: q+ ←
16:38:37 <sandro> PatH: So the Concepts Document would refer to named graphs, and Semantic would be silent on it, leacing a muddle.
Patrick Hayes: So the Concepts Document would refer to named graphs, and Semantic would be silent on it, leacing a muddle. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:38:42 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:38:42 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:38:48 <sandro> cygri: Yes. But who would be opposed to that.
Richard Cyganiak: Yes. But who would be opposed to that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:39:14 <danbri> (can't we just make the list writeable to anyone who can post to w3c lists?)
Dan Brickley: (can't we just make the list writeable to anyone who can post to w3c lists?) ←
16:39:48 <sandro> Guys forward TimBLs email to list.
Sandro Hawke: Guys forward TimBLs email to list. ←
16:40:06 <sandro> JeremyCarroll: Named Graphs paper suggested a pragmatic treatment of named graphs.
Jeremy Carroll: Named Graphs paper suggested a pragmatic treatment of named graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:40:23 <sandro> ... because we couldnt change the formal semantics
Sandro Hawke: ... because we couldnt change the formal semantics ←
16:40:27 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:40:36 <sandro> ack JeremyCarroll
Sandro Hawke: ack JeremyCarroll ←
16:40:42 <gavinc> ack AndyS
Gavin Carothers: ack AndyS ←
16:40:42 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask that TBL emails get to the list
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask that TBL emails get to the list ←
16:40:50 <PatH> actually that paper did give a formal semantics. its not hard to do.
Patrick Hayes: actually that paper did give a formal semantics. its not hard to do. ←
16:41:15 <PatH> masybe jeremy didnt notice it :-)
Patrick Hayes: masybe jeremy didnt notice it :-) ←
16:41:20 <JeremyCarroll> :)
Jeremy Carroll: :) ←
16:41:22 <JeremyCarroll> -1
Jeremy Carroll: -1 ←
16:41:23 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: Let's close all the GRAPHS issues, with just the currenty text in RDF Concepts
STRAWPOLL: Let's close all the GRAPHS issues, with just the currenty text in RDF Concepts ←
16:41:34 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
16:41:37 <sandro> -1 I think we need to try harder, for a while, sadly
Sandro Hawke: -1 I think we need to try harder, for a while, sadly ←
16:41:38 <PatH> -1
Patrick Hayes: -1 ←
16:41:39 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
16:41:40 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
16:41:43 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
16:41:45 <MacTed> -1
Ted Thibodeau: -1 ←
16:41:46 <pfps> Richard's proposal has the consequence that RDF datasets are not handled in the RDF semantics - which is solely concerned with how RDF graphs work.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Richard's proposal has the consequence that RDF datasets are not handled in the RDF semantics - which is solely concerned with how RDF graphs work. ←
16:41:46 <AndyS> +0.5 (want to have dataset patterns)
+0.5 (want to have dataset patterns) ←
16:41:47 <pfps> +1
16:41:50 <charlesgreer> +1
Charles Greer: +1 ←
16:41:51 <AlexHall> +1
16:41:52 <gavinc> -0
Gavin Carothers: -0 ←
16:41:52 <zwu2> +1 (starts with)
16:41:56 <davidwood> -1, I'd love to end this, but won't in the face of Pat's -1
David Wood: -1, I'd love to end this, but won't in the face of Pat's -1 ←
16:41:57 <AZ> -0
Antoine Zimmermann: -0 ←
16:42:10 <swh> 0
Steve Harris: 0 ←
16:42:14 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
16:42:26 <pfps> I strongly agree with Sandro, that there needs to be a proposal to move forward.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I strongly agree with Sandro, that there needs to be a proposal to move forward. ←
16:42:29 <swh> maybe +0.5
Steve Harris: maybe +0.5 ←
16:42:35 <pfps> ... if there is any forward to move.
Peter Patel-Schneider: ... if there is any forward to move. ←
16:42:39 <pfps> q+
16:42:49 <AndyS> q+ to ask about starting points
q+ to ask about starting points ←
16:42:59 <AZ> q+ to say that there is a formal semantic in the current proposal
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ to say that there is a formal semantic in the current proposal ←
16:43:05 <davidwood> The same poll could yield different results in 12 months :)
David Wood: The same poll could yield different results in 12 months :) ←
16:43:07 <PatH> i dont feel we have rally started on this yet. I will try to get a prposal by next week.
Patrick Hayes: i dont feel we have rally started on this yet. I will try to get a prposal by next week. ←
16:43:08 <AndyS> Guus: minimal needed to add?
Guus Schreiber: minimal needed to add? ←
16:43:25 <Guus> ack AZ
Guus Schreiber: ack AZ ←
16:43:25 <Zakim> AZ, you wanted to say that there is a formal semantic in the current proposal
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ, you wanted to say that there is a formal semantic in the current proposal ←
16:43:26 <PatH> rally/really
Patrick Hayes: rally/really ←
16:43:56 <AndyS> AZ: there is a semantic proposal already
Antoine Zimmermann: there is a semantic proposal already ←
16:44:02 <sandro> az: In the proposal about datasets, there is already a formal semantics. But it has never been discussed in telecons. It's been there since March. It's minimals. If you have several graphs, then you have several RDF interpretations. What follows from a dataset is what entails from each graph in it.
Antoine Zimmermann: In the proposal about datasets, there is already a formal semantics. But it has never been discussed in telecons. It's been there since March. It's minimals. If you have several graphs, then you have several RDF interpretations. What follows from a dataset is what entails from each graph in it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:44:51 <PatH> Im afraid I dont think that idea makes sense. But we can discuss it in email.
Patrick Hayes: Im afraid I dont think that idea makes sense. But we can discuss it in email. ←
16:44:57 <pfps> Can we have a pointer to this semantics?
Peter Patel-Schneider: Can we have a pointer to this semantics? ←
16:45:01 <AndyS> From memory - it seemed OK.
From memory - it seemed OK. ←
16:45:18 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
16:45:29 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (40%), AndyS (4%), davidwood (4%), AZ (15%), Peter_Patel-Schneider (37%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (40%), AndyS (4%), davidwood (4%), AZ (15%), Peter_Patel-Schneider (37%) ←
16:45:50 <sandro> pfps: Pat brought up negative consequences that resonated with people. What?
Peter Patel-Schneider: Pat brought up negative consequences that resonated with people. What? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:46:11 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
16:46:11 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
16:46:29 <sandro> davidwood: Pat said disconnect between RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics.
David Wood: Pat said disconnect between RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:46:30 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:46:38 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:46:42 <AndyS> ack pfpf
ack pfpf ←
16:46:49 <AndyS> ack pfps
ack pfps ←
16:46:55 <Guus> ack pfps
Guus Schreiber: ack pfps ←
16:47:02 <gavinc> Enough so that someone coming to RDF has some CLUE what's going on with named graphs. Right now or with the minimal statement you have to go and read all sorts of other documents to figure out what Named Graphs are used for. And then you find disagreement in those other documents, and then you end up editing TriG
Gavin Carothers: Enough so that someone coming to RDF has some CLUE what's going on with named graphs. Right now or with the minimal statement you have to go and read all sorts of other documents to figure out what Named Graphs are used for. And then you find disagreement in those other documents, and then you end up editing TriG ←
16:47:21 <sandro> pat: There are many entailments up for grabs. Which ones will be in Semantics?
Patrick Hayes: There are many entailments up for grabs. Which ones will be in Semantics? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:47:36 <sandro> Guus: If this is only about gboxes, then there should be no change to semantics.
Guus Schreiber: If this is only about gboxes, then there should be no change to semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:47:44 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:48:04 <JeremyCarroll> q+
Jeremy Carroll: q+ ←
16:48:12 <sandro> pat: When you say a URI names something, that statements has a lot of Semantic Weight. As we've demonstrated, there's a lot of potential misunderstanding over that usage.
Patrick Hayes: When you say a URI names something, that statements has a lot of Semantic Weight. As we've demonstrated, there's a lot of potential misunderstanding over that usage. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:48:26 <sandro> [ We need test cases! ]
Sandro Hawke: [ We need test cases! ] ←
16:48:28 <cygri> "http://example.com"^^xsd:anyURI is an IRI and doesn't denote anything in the formal semantics
Richard Cyganiak: "http://example.com"^^xsd:anyURI is an IRI and doesn't denote anything in the formal semantics ←
16:48:39 <AndyS> ack AndyS
ack AndyS ←
16:48:39 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about starting points
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about starting points ←
16:48:49 <PatH> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
16:49:13 <sandro> AndyS: Starting points? Are we targetting a design that does not invalidate what people are already doing? Or are we designing a clean sheet solution?
Andy Seaborne: Starting points? Are we targetting a design that does not invalidate what people are already doing? Or are we designing a clean sheet solution? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:49:13 <pfps> Why not just say that a named graph is a pair consisting of a URI and an RDF graph?
Peter Patel-Schneider: Why not just say that a named graph is a pair consisting of a URI and an RDF graph? ←
16:49:15 <JeremyCarroll> @cygri The formal semantics gives the value of "http://example.com" to that on e
Jeremy Carroll: @cygri The formal semantics gives the value of "http://example.com" to that on e ←
16:49:18 <JeremyCarroll> it is specified
Jeremy Carroll: it is specified ←
16:49:26 <sandro> guus: Charter says don't invalidate existing deployments.
Guus Schreiber: Charter says don't invalidate existing deployments. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:49:33 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:50:11 <sandro> Andy: Different people are using the semantics differently
Andy Seaborne: Different people are using the semantics differently [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:50:12 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give test case
Jeremy Carroll: q+ to give test case ←
16:50:30 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
16:50:45 <AndyS> Andy: current uses look like several different semantics / patterns of usage
Andy Seaborne: current uses look like several different semantics / patterns of usage ←
16:50:49 <sandro> Brad Allen of Elsevier: Named Graph == A document containing RDF that has a presence on the Web, as a container for that graph.
Sandro Hawke: Brad Allen of Elsevier: Named Graph == A document containing RDF that has a presence on the Web, as a container for that graph. ←
16:51:01 <PatH> a g-box
Patrick Hayes: a g-box ←
16:51:09 <LeeF> thats not what i think a named graph is
Lee Feigenbaum: thats not what i think a named graph is ←
16:51:18 <LeeF> tag:mygraph { ... some triples ... }
Lee Feigenbaum: tag:mygraph { ... some triples ... } ←
16:51:19 <LeeF> is a named graph
Lee Feigenbaum: is a named graph ←
16:51:21 <LeeF> not on the Web
Lee Feigenbaum: not on the Web ←
16:51:26 <danbri> I disagree
Dan Brickley: I disagree ←
16:51:47 <davidwood> Are we going to argue now about what a "document" is? I suspect that "document" has now been used in at least as many ways as "graph".
David Wood: Are we going to argue now about what a "document" is? I suspect that "document" has now been used in at least as many ways as "graph". ←
16:51:48 <danbri> Lots of RDF people understand it as a kind of muddle between SPARQL datasets, and 'where/how I got it...'
Dan Brickley: Lots of RDF people understand it as a kind of muddle between SPARQL datasets, and 'where/how I got it...' ←
16:51:52 <sandro> a gbox on the web.
Sandro Hawke: a gbox on the web. ←
16:52:05 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:52:22 <danbri> ( re what-is-a-doc, http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/whatdoc.html )
Dan Brickley: ( re what-is-a-doc, http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/whatdoc.html ) ←
16:52:30 <davidwood> A "document" cannot equal a g-box in my world. A g-snap, surely.
David Wood: A "document" cannot equal a g-box in my world. A g-snap, surely. ←
16:52:30 <PatH> clearly the world needs restful-named g-boxes.
Patrick Hayes: clearly the world needs restful-named g-boxes. ←
16:52:37 <AndyS> Seems very like FROM NAMED in SPARQL -- a usage of the SPARQL RDF datasets
Seems very like FROM NAMED in SPARQL -- a usage of the SPARQL RDF datasets ←
16:52:41 <sandro> AndyS: I think that's what Dan Connolly had in mind for SPARQL datasets.
Andy Seaborne: I think that's what Dan Connolly had in mind for SPARQL datasets. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:52:45 <PatH> I suggest it also needs named graphs.
Patrick Hayes: I suggest it also needs named graphs. ←
16:53:22 <PatH> so we need to distinguish them.
Patrick Hayes: so we need to distinguish them. ←
16:53:33 <AndyS> cygri: world expects that case, we can give the world something like that (maybe more)
Richard Cyganiak: world expects that case, we can give the world something like that (maybe more) ←
16:53:47 <sandro> cygri:Sandro, Datasets are a step in the right direction to this, "what the world wants"
Richard Cyganiak: Sandro, Datasets are a step in the right direction to this, "what the world wants" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:54:43 <AndyS> cygri: non-denoting in "http://example/resource"^^xsd:anyURI
Richard Cyganiak: non-denoting in "http://example/resource"^^xsd:anyURI ←
16:55:02 <LeeF> BTW, i'd be prety happy with what pfps wrote above: named graph is a pair of (URI, RDF graph) -- since as I understand things, that's exactly how I've always used them
Lee Feigenbaum: BTW, i'd be prety happy with what pfps wrote above: named graph is a pair of (URI, RDF graph) -- since as I understand things, that's exactly how I've always used them ←
16:55:05 <AndyS> path: if we say "uri names X" then we need to say what "names" means
Patrick Hayes: if we say "uri names X" then we need to say what "names" means ←
16:55:13 <sandro> pat: If our spec says "named graphs", we need to be specific about what we mean by that phrase.
Patrick Hayes: If our spec says "named graphs", we need to be specific about what we mean by that phrase. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:55:19 <gavinc> "A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph. It is intended that triple statements made using that IRI are being made about the graph."
Gavin Carothers: "A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph. It is intended that triple statements made using that IRI are being made about the graph." ←
16:55:31 <danbri> PatH, don't just say consequences for entailments in RDF; say 'for what people do with RDF data...'
Dan Brickley: PatH, don't just say consequences for entailments in RDF; say 'for what people do with RDF data...' ←
16:55:42 <danbri> (for those whose eyes glaze over at mention of fancy logic stuff)
Dan Brickley: (for those whose eyes glaze over at mention of fancy logic stuff) ←
16:55:47 <sandro> q+ to ask if Pat can write down some test cases
Sandro Hawke: q+ to ask if Pat can write down some test cases ←
16:55:57 <AndyS> +1 to LeeF -- it's the minimal framework (but the looseness can lead to corner cases later)
+1 to LeeF -- it's the minimal framework (but the looseness can lead to corner cases later) ←
16:55:57 <LeeF> yeah test cases!
Lee Feigenbaum: yeah test cases! ←
16:56:26 <AndyS> cygri: It's a label.
Richard Cyganiak: It's a label. ←
16:57:16 <sandro> +1 JJC
Sandro Hawke: +1 JJC ←
16:57:30 <AndyS> Jeremy: can say different things about same URI.
Jeremy Carroll: can say different things about same URI. ←
16:57:41 <AndyS> q+ to say "patterns"
q+ to say "patterns" ←
16:57:50 <sandro> +1 JJC we need simple test cases to show things like an inconsistency when people dsay different things about the same graph.
Sandro Hawke: +1 JJC we need simple test cases to show things like an inconsistency when people dsay different things about the same graph. ←
16:57:50 <pfps> But why is it the job of RDF to do what Jeremy wants? For example, RDF doesn't make a=b and a/=b a contradiction.
Peter Patel-Schneider: But why is it the job of RDF to do what Jeremy wants? For example, RDF doesn't make a=b and a/=b a contradiction. ←
16:58:12 <LeeF> pfps++
Lee Feigenbaum: pfps++ ←
16:58:16 <LeeF> +1 even
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 even ←
16:58:27 <AndyS> "patterns" are an external semantics -- in-doc semantics mean too many people have to change
"patterns" are an external semantics -- in-doc semantics mean too many people have to change ←
16:58:28 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
16:58:30 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
16:58:39 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (67%), Scott_Bauer (51%), cygri (5%), JeremyCarroll (76%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (67%), Scott_Bauer (51%), cygri (5%), JeremyCarroll (76%) ←
16:58:48 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
Zakim IRC Bot: -JeremyCarroll ←
16:58:48 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:58:48 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:58:55 <PatH> pfps, graphs are central to RDF, and no other authority is going to make it clear for us.
Patrick Hayes: pfps, graphs are central to RDF, and no other authority is going to make it clear for us. ←
16:59:01 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (57%), AZ (4%), JeremyCarroll (16%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (57%), AZ (4%), JeremyCarroll (16%) ←
16:59:15 <cygri> ack me
Richard Cyganiak: ack me ←
16:59:15 <sandro> ack sandro
Sandro Hawke: ack sandro ←
16:59:17 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
16:59:27 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:59:39 <MacTed> ack JeremyCarroll
Ted Thibodeau: ack JeremyCarroll ←
16:59:39 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask if Pat can write down some test cases
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to ask if Pat can write down some test cases ←
16:59:42 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll ←
16:59:57 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:59:58 <PatH> will do.
Patrick Hayes: will do. ←
17:00:05 <PatH> in email soon.
Patrick Hayes: in email soon. ←
17:00:12 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
17:00:14 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give test case
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give test case ←
17:00:15 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
17:00:29 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
17:01:11 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
17:01:12 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
17:01:36 <sandro> andy: Patterns, an attempt to overlay semantics on a TriG document.
Andy Seaborne: Patterns, an attempt to overlay semantics on a TriG document. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:01:57 <sandro> andy: and then label documents as using particular patterns.
Andy Seaborne: and then label documents as using particular patterns. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:01:59 <PatH> test cases can also be petterns :-)
Patrick Hayes: test cases can also be petterns :-) ←
17:02:12 <PatH> patterns
Patrick Hayes: patterns ←
17:02:37 <gavinc> q+ to complain about not being able to work on TriG
Gavin Carothers: q+ to complain about not being able to work on TriG ←
17:03:43 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
17:03:47 <AndyS> ack me
ack me ←
17:03:47 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
17:04:01 <sandro> q+ to suggest what a test case might look like (Entailments/Consistency of comibinations of TriG and RDF Graphs)
Sandro Hawke: q+ to suggest what a test case might look like (Entailments/Consistency of comibinations of TriG and RDF Graphs) ←
17:04:04 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
17:04:12 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to say "patterns"
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to say "patterns" ←
17:04:41 <davidwood> +10 to MacTed
David Wood: +10 to MacTed ←
17:04:45 <danbri> yup
Dan Brickley: yup ←
17:04:59 <PatH> is that trerminology written down? pointer?
Patrick Hayes: is that trerminology written down? pointer? ←
17:05:18 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-10-12#resolution_1
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-10-12#resolution_1 ←
17:05:20 <davidwood> ^ Pat
David Wood: ^ Pat ←
17:05:23 <PatH> ta.
Patrick Hayes: ta. ←
17:05:43 <sandro> MacTed: We need to stick with g-box, etc, terms instead of the way we keep using confusing terms.
Ted Thibodeau: We need to stick with g-box, etc, terms instead of the way we keep using confusing terms. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:05:48 <pfps> I'm trying to figure out what overloading is happening with respect to "named graphs".
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm trying to figure out what overloading is happening with respect to "named graphs". ←
17:06:11 <PatH> my bad for using 'g-box'.
Patrick Hayes: my bad for using 'g-box'. ←
17:06:26 <sandro> pfps, is a named graph a pair of (name, graph) as in the RDF Concepts, or is it "A document containing RDF that has a presence on the Web, as a container for that graph".
Sandro Hawke: pfps, is a named graph a pair of (name, graph) as in the RDF Concepts, or is it "A document containing RDF that has a presence on the Web, as a container for that graph". ←
17:06:41 <PatH> i wasnt at the f2f :(
Patrick Hayes: i wasnt at the f2f :( ←
17:06:59 <PatH> awww
Patrick Hayes: awww ←
17:07:01 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
17:07:08 <PatH> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
17:07:09 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
17:07:09 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
17:07:16 <Guus> ack MacTed
Guus Schreiber: ack MacTed ←
17:07:24 <davidwood> <graph container> owl:sameAs "g-box", but the range of sameAs can't be a literal so we end up having the same conversation about denotation...
David Wood: <graph container> owl:sameAs "g-box", but the range of sameAs can't be a literal so we end up having the same conversation about denotation... ←
17:07:39 <PatH> fofl
Patrick Hayes: fofl ←
17:07:59 <sandro> gavin: First draft of TriG was posted a week and ahalf after F2F, and I've asked at every WG meeting since then about some language in it, and I keep getting different answers.
Gavin Carothers: First draft of TriG was posted a week and ahalf after F2F, and I've asked at every WG meeting since then about some language in it, and I keep getting different answers. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:08:10 <Guus> ack gavinc
Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc ←
17:08:10 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to complain about not being able to work on TriG
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to complain about not being able to work on TriG ←
17:08:23 <PatH> we need a group assignment to read and follow a bunch of documents.
Patrick Hayes: we need a group assignment to read and follow a bunch of documents. ←
17:08:47 <cygri> gavinc, you can't standardize the serialization when the model is still in flux. no surprise there
Richard Cyganiak: gavinc, you can't standardize the serialization when the model is still in flux. no surprise there ←
17:08:51 <AndyS> We are quoting from outside WG so safer to use g-* to understand those views.
We are quoting from outside WG so safer to use g-* to understand those views. ←
17:08:51 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
17:08:51 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to suggest what a test case might look like (Entailments/Consistency of comibinations of TriG and RDF Graphs)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to suggest what a test case might look like (Entailments/Consistency of comibinations of TriG and RDF Graphs) ←
17:08:53 <sandro> TriG document + RDF Graphs ===> Entailments / contradictions
Sandro Hawke: TriG document + RDF Graphs ===> Entailments / contradictions ←
17:09:26 <pfps> actually I don't see any problem with writing the serialization spec, it is just the "surround" that is difficult
Peter Patel-Schneider: actually I don't see any problem with writing the serialization spec, it is just the "surround" that is difficult ←
17:09:35 <gavinc> "A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph. It is intended that triple statements made using that IRI are being made about the graph."
Gavin Carothers: "A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph. It is intended that triple statements made using that IRI are being made about the graph." ←
17:09:42 <pfps> ... without any consensus on how named graphs are supposed to work
Peter Patel-Schneider: ... without any consensus on how named graphs are supposed to work ←
17:09:54 <PatH> we might need a new format for webbish test cases involving containers.
Patrick Hayes: we might need a new format for webbish test cases involving containers. ←
17:10:10 <AndyS> sandro: IRI labels the graph
Sandro Hawke: IRI labels the graph ←
17:10:15 <PatH> +1 pfps
Patrick Hayes: +1 pfps ←
17:10:27 <AndyS> ... workign out what "labels" can be
... workign out what "labels" can be ←
17:10:29 <Zakim> -Arnaud_LeHors
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud_LeHors ←
17:11:41 <LeeF> yup
Lee Feigenbaum: yup ←
17:12:06 <AndyS> pfps: parser/grammar outputs a dataset.
Peter Patel-Schneider: parser/grammar outputs a dataset. ←
17:13:04 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: We'll use TriG as our multigraph syntax, given we agree on some little details. TriG is a syntax for serializaing an RDF Dataset.
STRAWPOLL: We'll use TriG as our multigraph syntax, given we agree on some little details. TriG is a syntax for serializaing an RDF Dataset. ←
17:13:04 <cygri> danbri++
Richard Cyganiak: danbri++ ←
17:13:12 <MacTed> TriG as opposed to ... N-Quads? something(s) else?
Ted Thibodeau: TriG as opposed to ... N-Quads? something(s) else? ←
17:13:13 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
17:13:14 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
17:13:15 <cygri> -1
Richard Cyganiak: -1 ←
17:13:16 <pfps> +1
17:13:17 <zwu2> +1
17:13:20 <PatH> 0
Patrick Hayes: 0 ←
17:13:24 <sandro> +0 not sure
Sandro Hawke: +0 not sure ←
17:13:26 <swh> +1 (but only internally, not published)
Steve Harris: +1 (but only internally, not published) ←
17:13:36 <AlexHall> +1
17:13:41 <danbri> +1
Dan Brickley: +1 ←
17:14:00 <sandro> cygri, prefers in n-quads
Sandro Hawke: cygri, prefers in n-quads ←
17:14:10 <AndyS> +1 TriG and N-quads (c.f. Turtle and N-triples)
+1 TriG and N-quads (c.f. Turtle and N-triples) ←
17:14:13 <AZ> 0
17:14:15 <MacTed> +0 I generally prefer not to implicitly bless anything, when it's possible to present multiple (so I'm likewise against presenting *only* in N-Quads, if both are viable)
Ted Thibodeau: +0 I generally prefer not to implicitly bless anything, when it's possible to present multiple (so I'm likewise against presenting *only* in N-Quads, if both are viable) ←
17:14:29 <LeeF> I'm +1 for N-quads too
Lee Feigenbaum: I'm +1 for N-quads too ←
17:14:38 <LeeF> since we're now discussing that :)
Lee Feigenbaum: since we're now discussing that :) ←
17:14:43 <PatH> I have to leave very soon.
Patrick Hayes: I have to leave very soon. ←
17:14:46 <AndyS> Not only N-Quads - unreadable at scale (scale = 2+ graphs)
Not only N-Quads - unreadable at scale (scale = 2+ graphs) ←
17:15:18 <PatH> im feeling pentagonal.
Patrick Hayes: im feeling pentagonal. ←
17:16:00 <sandro> np, Andy
Sandro Hawke: np, Andy ←
17:16:29 <sandro> guus: Thanks everyone.
Guus Schreiber: Thanks everyone. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:16:32 <zwu2> bye
17:16:38 <PatH> bye
Patrick Hayes: bye ←
17:16:43 <sandro> ... sounds like we need to pay more attention to our graphs terminology
Sandro Hawke: ... sounds like we need to pay more attention to our graphs terminology ←
17:16:57 <sandro> ... and work on what needs to be added for Graphs.
Sandro Hawke: ... and work on what needs to be added for Graphs. ←
17:17:11 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
17:17:12 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
17:17:12 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
17:17:13 <Zakim> -swh
Zakim IRC Bot: -swh ←
17:17:13 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
17:17:13 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
17:17:15 <Zakim> -danbri
Zakim IRC Bot: -danbri ←
17:17:17 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
17:17:21 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
17:17:23 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
17:17:26 <Zakim> - +1.443.212.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.443.212.aabb ←
17:17:27 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer ←
17:17:34 <Zakim> -charlesgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: -charlesgreer ←
17:17:42 <Zakim> -sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro ←
17:17:45 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
17:17:48 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
17:17:57 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
17:17:57 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-rdf-wg-irc#T17-17-57
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-rdf-wg-irc#T17-17-57 ←
17:18:16 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
17:21:01 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
17:27:28 <Zakim> -FabGandon
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -FabGandon ←
17:27:29 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
17:27:30 <Zakim> Attendees were Guus, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud_LeHors, LeeF, Scott_Bauer, MacTed, cygri, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, AZ, gavinc, charlesgreer, FabGandon, +1.443.212.aabb, zwu2,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Guus, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud_LeHors, LeeF, Scott_Bauer, MacTed, cygri, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, AZ, gavinc, charlesgreer, FabGandon, +1.443.212.aabb, zwu2, ←
17:27:34 <Zakim> ... PatH, swh, Souri, danbri, JeremyCarroll, Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: ... PatH, swh, Souri, danbri, JeremyCarroll, Arnaud ←
Formatted by CommonScribe