edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 28 September 2011

Seen
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Lee Feigenbaum, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Souripriya Das, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu
Scribe
Peter Patel-Schneider
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. accept minutes of 21 Sep http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-21 link
Topics
14:58:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-irc

14:58:39 <pfps> scribenick pfps

Peter Patel-Schneider: scribenick pfps

14:59:18 <gavinc> trackbot, start meeting

Gavin Carothers: trackbot, start meeting

14:59:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:59:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:59:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

14:59:23 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:59:23 <trackbot> Date: 28 September 2011
15:00:38 <pfps> scribenick: pfps

(Scribe set to Peter Patel-Schneider)

15:00:43 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:00:43 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus

15:00:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain, yvesr_,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain, yvesr_,

15:00:47 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP

15:01:30 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:01:30 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, MacTed

15:01:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain,

15:01:33 <Zakim> ... yvesr_, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... yvesr_, sandro, ericP

15:01:36 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 73394

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, this is 73394

15:01:36 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

15:01:38 <Zakim> +bhyland

Zakim IRC Bot: +bhyland

15:01:39 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:01:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, Tony, +33.4.77.42.aabb, +1.443.212.aacc, OpenLink_Software, Arnaud, +1.707.861.aadd, bhyland

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, Tony, +33.4.77.42.aabb, +1.443.212.aacc, OpenLink_Software, Arnaud, +1.707.861.aadd, bhyland

15:01:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain,

15:01:47 <Zakim> ... yvesr_, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... yvesr_, sandro, ericP

15:01:48 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:01:49 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider

15:01:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:01:51 <gavinc> zakim, aadd is me

Gavin Carothers: zakim, aadd is me

15:01:53 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:01:55 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:01:57 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it

15:01:58 <AlexHall> zakim, aacc is me

Alex Hall: zakim, aacc is me

15:01:59 <davidwood> zakim, bhyland is me

David Wood: zakim, bhyland is me

15:02:01 <Zakim> + +44.207.923.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.207.923.aaee

15:02:03 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, Tony is me

Scott Bauer: zakim, Tony is me

15:02:05 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

15:02:06 <pfps> scribenick: pfps
15:02:07 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

15:02:09 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it

15:02:14 <Guus> zakim, +31.20.598.aaaa is me

Guus Schreiber: zakim, +31.20.598.aaaa is me

15:02:17 <Zakim> +Guus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it

15:02:18 <Arnaud> fyi, I will have to drop at the hour

Arnaud Le Hors: fyi, I will have to drop at the hour

15:02:28 <pfps> topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:02:41 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:03:15 <yvesr_> Zakim, who's on the call?

Yves Raimond: Zakim, who's on the call?

15:03:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Scott_Bauer, +33.4.77.42.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, gavinc, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +44.207.923.aaee, PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, Scott_Bauer, +33.4.77.42.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, gavinc, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +44.207.923.aaee, PatH

15:03:15 <AZ> zakim, aabb is me

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, aabb is me

15:03:18 <PatH> I will have to drop out in 30 mins for a short while.

Patrick Hayes: I will have to drop out in 30 mins for a short while.

15:03:18 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:03:27 <yvesr_> Zakim, +44.207.923.aaee is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, +44.207.923.aaee is me

15:03:27 <Zakim> +yvesr_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr_; got it

15:03:32 <yvesr_> Zakim, mute me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, mute me

15:03:32 <Zakim> yvesr_ should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr_ should now be muted

15:03:37 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:03:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, gavinc, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, yvesr_ (muted), PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, gavinc, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, yvesr_ (muted), PatH

15:03:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, pchampin, PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cmatheus, pchampin, PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood,

15:03:41 <Zakim> ... trackbot, stain, yvesr_, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, stain, yvesr_, sandro, ericP

15:03:45 <Zakim> + +1.781.899.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.781.899.aaff

15:03:45 <zwu2> zakim, code?

Zhe Wu: zakim, code?

15:03:47 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

15:03:55 <sandro> zakim, aaff is Sandro

Sandro Hawke: zakim, aaff is Sandro

15:03:55 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro; got it

15:04:04 <Zakim> +??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34

15:04:12 <pchampin> zakim, ??P34 is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P34 is me

15:04:12 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

15:04:14 <pchampin> zakim, mute me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, mute me

15:04:14 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin should now be muted

15:04:28 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.265.aagg

15:04:33 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

15:04:33 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

15:04:39 <zwu2> zakim, aagg is me

Zhe Wu: zakim, aagg is me

15:04:39 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it

15:04:49 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

15:04:50 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted

15:04:52 <pfps> PROPOSED: accept minutes of 21 Sep  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-21

PROPOSED: accept minutes of 21 Sep http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-21

15:05:03 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:05:21 <pfps> RESOLVED: accept minutes of 21 Sep http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-21

RESOLVED: accept minutes of 21 Sep http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-21

15:05:33 <pfps> guus: action items - pending

Guus Schreiber: action items - pending

15:06:16 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:06:37 <yvesr_> done :)

Yves Raimond: done :)

15:06:49 <pfps> guus: 77 done, 89 [done], 90 done, 91 done

Guus Schreiber: 77 done, 89 [done], 90 done, 91 done

15:07:02 <pfps> guus: open actions

Guus Schreiber: open actions

15:07:08 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aahh

15:07:18 <Souri> zakim, aahh is me

Souripriya Das: zakim, aahh is me

15:07:19 <Zakim> +Souri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it

15:07:27 <pfps> guus: action 82 - Sandro?

Guus Schreiber: ACTION-82 - Sandro?

15:07:42 <pfps> sandro: no action yet - will try this week

Sandro Hawke: no action yet - will try this week

15:07:53 <pfps> guus: action 86 - Sandro?

Guus Schreiber: ACTION-86 - Sandro?

15:08:08 <sandro> action-86?

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-86?

15:08:08 <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Sandro Hawke to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-86 -- Sandro Hawke to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN

15:08:08 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/86

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/86

15:08:35 <pfps> sandro: 86 is either done or obsolete

Sandro Hawke: 86 is either done or obsolete

15:08:41 <pfps> guus: everything is to continue

Guus Schreiber: everything is to continue

15:08:43 <sandro> it's both!

Sandro Hawke: it's both!

15:09:07 <pfps> TOPIC: F2F planning

2. F2F planning

15:09:12 <pfps> guus:  anything to be done

Guus Schreiber: anything to be done

15:09:14 <sandro> is it disjunction and/or conjunction?  :-)

Sandro Hawke: is it disjunction and/or conjunction? :-)

15:09:22 <yvesr_> Zakim, unmute me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, unmute me

15:09:23 <Zakim> yvesr_ should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr_ should no longer be muted

15:09:51 <pfps> davidwood: note that times have changed (and are now aligned)

David Wood: note that times have changed (and are now aligned)

15:09:53 <yvesr_> Zakim, mute me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, mute me

15:09:53 <Zakim> yvesr_ should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr_ should now be muted

15:09:59 <ericP> sandro, do you know the foo to make sure the Stata doors are unlocked?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: sandro, do you know the foo to make sure the Stata doors are unlocked?

15:10:09 <ericP> if not, i'll dig into it

Eric Prud'hommeaux: if not, i'll dig into it

15:10:22 <sandro> please do, eric.

Sandro Hawke: please do, eric.

15:10:36 <pfps> guus: agenda for F2F2 is on the wiki, need to make sure that some open time remains

Guus Schreiber: agenda for F2F2 is on the wiki, need to make sure that some open time remains

15:10:53 <pfps> guus:  no need to change more right now

Guus Schreiber: no need to change more right now

15:11:15 <pfps> TOPIC: Turtle in HTML

3. Turtle in HTML

15:11:36 <pfps> guus: see message from Gavin

Guus Schreiber: see message from Gavin

15:11:57 <pfps> gavinc: document needs to be brought up before HTML task force

Gavin Carothers: document needs to be brought up before HTML data task force

15:12:13 <pfps> s/HTML/HTML data/
15:13:04 <pfps> ACTION gavinc: liase with HTML data task force to bring up Turtle in HTML document, etc.

ACTION gavinc: liase with HTML data task force to bring up Turtle in HTML document, etc.

15:13:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-92 - Liase with HTML data task force to bring up Turtle in HTML document, etc. [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-10-05].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-92 - Liase with HTML data task force to bring up Turtle in HTML document, etc. [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-10-05].

15:13:52 <pfps> TOPIC: Liaison with Provenance WG

4. Liaison with Provenance WG

15:14:11 <pfps> guus: trust use case from Sandro http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-prov/2011Sep/0003.html

Guus Schreiber: trust use case from Sandro http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-prov/2011Sep/0003.html

15:14:33 <davidwood> q+ to ask what impact Turtle in HTML might have on RDF/JSON

David Wood: q+ to ask what impact Turtle in HTML might have on RDF/JSON

15:14:34 <pfps> guus: this appears to be a good, driving example

Guus Schreiber: this appears to be a good, driving example

15:15:00 <pfps> sandro: I can't speak for the PWG, even though I tried to provoke discussion of it there

Sandro Hawke: I can't speak for the PWG, even though I tried to provoke discussion of it there

15:15:30 <pfps> sandro: Richard had some comments, notably a set of actions

Sandro Hawke: Richard had some comments, notably a set of actions

15:16:03 <pfps> guus: how about RDF to show example(s)?

Guus Schreiber: how about RDF to show example(s)?

15:16:23 <PatH> this example seems very ambitious to me. ZDoes the Prov. grp consider it in their scope?

Patrick Hayes: this example seems very ambitious to me. ZDoes the Prov. grp consider it in their scope?

15:16:36 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

15:16:44 <pfps> sandro: one issue is when you need a "snapshot", e.g., "That's not right", but then the "that" is fixed

Sandro Hawke: one issue is when you need a "snapshot", e.g., "That's not right", but then the "that" is fixed

15:16:48 <AndyS> zakim, ??P3 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P3 is me

15:16:48 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:17:10 <pfps> sandro: Richard's proposal does not appear to speak to this

Sandro Hawke: Richard's proposal does not appear to speak to this

15:18:18 <pfps> guus: can we come up with some worked examples, showing potential RDF content?

Guus Schreiber: can we come up with some worked examples, showing potential RDF content?

15:18:34 <pfps> sandro: I'll try to work this into the conversation with Richard

Sandro Hawke: I'll try to work this into the conversation with Richard

15:18:57 <sandro> will post to public-rdf-prov@w3.org

Sandro Hawke: will post to public-rdf-prov@w3.org

15:19:08 <pfps> sandro: on the joint mailing list public-rdf-prov@w3.org

Sandro Hawke: on the joint mailing list public-rdf-prov@w3.org

15:19:52 <pfps> guus: can something be done on this at the F2F?

Guus Schreiber: can something be done on this at the F2F?

15:20:06 <davidwood> q-

David Wood: q-

15:20:07 <pfps> guus: we need to prepare something on this for F2F

Guus Schreiber: we need to prepare something on this for F2F

15:20:30 <pfps> sandro: can others do other examples?

Sandro Hawke: can others do other examples?

15:20:52 <pfps> guus: how about responding to the first example with potential solutions?

Guus Schreiber: how about responding to the first example with potential solutions?

15:21:44 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC

15:22:14 <pfps> the above link is the relevant page for this WG to edit on provenance

the above link is the relevant page for this WG to edit on provenance

15:22:23 <pfps> guus: volunteers to do something?

Guus Schreiber: volunteers to do something?

15:22:58 <pfps> gavinc: there is an example - i'll work on it

Gavin Carothers: there is an example - i'll work on it

15:23:36 <yvesr_> just got a nice use-case from Denni V - I asked him to write it up

Yves Raimond: just got a nice use-case from Denni V - I asked him to write it up

15:23:47 <yvesr_> about data wikis

Yves Raimond: about data wikis

15:23:59 <PatH> whatever you decide, it only works if everyone does it.

Patrick Hayes: whatever you decide, it only works if everyone does it.

15:24:19 <gavinc> Exactly.

Gavin Carothers: Exactly.

15:24:40 <sandro> sandro: maybe simplest solution is all script/turtle elements are the default graph, unless they have id tags.    This gives you a dataset serialization format (although only when the graph ids have the same base)

Sandro Hawke: maybe simplest solution is all script/turtle elements are the default graph, unless they have id tags. This gives you a dataset serialization format (although only when the graph ids have the same base) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:24:51 <pfps> guus:  please come up with interesting suggestions for proposals

Guus Schreiber: please come up with interesting suggestions for proposals

15:25:04 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

15:25:22 <sandro> Jan

Sandro Hawke: Jan

15:25:41 <Guus> Jan Wielemaker

Guus Schreiber: Jan Wielemaker

15:25:43 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

15:25:50 <AndyS> (implicit) base URIs considered harmful.

Andy Seaborne: (implicit) base URIs considered harmful.

15:25:52 <Guus> will ask him to look at examples

Guus Schreiber: will ask him to look at examples

15:25:54 <pfps> guus: i'll ask Jan Wielemaker to contribute

Guus Schreiber: i'll ask Jan Wielemaker to contribute

15:26:08 <davidwood> AndyS++

David Wood: AndyS++

15:26:45 <PatH> "My favorite quadstore", a contemporary love story.

Patrick Hayes: "My favorite quadstore", a contemporary love story.

15:26:54 <gavinc> www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Graphs-In-Turtle

Gavin Carothers: www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Graphs-In-Turtle

15:27:02 <pfps> guus: provenance will be a main topic at the F2F

Guus Schreiber: provenance will be a main topic at the F2F

15:27:55 <pfps> gavinc: work on serialization of all this

Gavin Carothers: work on serialization of all this

15:28:32 <pfps> gavinc: looking at what it would take to standarize something like TRIG or n-QUADS and how it could be compatible with Turtle

Gavin Carothers: looking at what it would take to standarize something like TRIG or n-QUADS and how it could be compatible with Turtle

15:29:11 <pfps> gavinc: proposal from me (GRAPH keyword); another like TRIG (see strawman page)

Gavin Carothers: proposal from me (GRAPH keyword); another like TRIG (see strawman page)

15:30:25 <pfps> gavinc: problem with TRIG is that it isn't n-quads (because TRIG has to have all the graph in one spot)

Gavin Carothers: problem with TRIG is that it isn't n-quads (because TRIG has to have all the graph in one spot)

15:30:36 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

15:30:40 <pfps> Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph

Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph

15:30:48 <ericP> q+ to say the semantics might be easier if each graph simply added to the "database" so repeats simply append

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say the semantics might be easier if each graph simply added to the "database" so repeats simply append

15:31:14 <pfps> Sandro: I don't like stateful syntaxes

Sandro Hawke: I don't like stateful syntaxes

15:31:52 <sandro> ericp

Sandro Hawke: ericp

15:32:28 <pfps> ericP: Turtle already has state - in [], prefixes, etc., so we wouldn't be too much worse

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Turtle already has state - in [], prefixes, etc., so we wouldn't be too much worse

15:32:35 <ericP> <G1> { <G2> { <s> <p> <o> } }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <G1> { <G2> { <s> <p> <o> } }

15:32:40 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

15:32:47 <Guus> ack eripP

Guus Schreiber: ack eripP

15:32:53 <ericP> <G1> {

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <G1> {

15:32:58 <Guus> ack aricP

Guus Schreiber: ack aricP

15:33:02 <AndyS> Turtle is only concat as whole files.  (bNode labels excepted) is that enough?

Andy Seaborne: Turtle is only concat as whole files. (bNode labels excepted) is that enough?

15:33:03 <ericP>   <G2> { <s> <p> <o> }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <G2> { <s> <p> <o> }

15:33:05 <ericP> }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: }

15:33:15 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

15:33:28 <sandro> sandro: so good practice might be to start every turtle doc with "@graph . #go back to the default graph"   if you think there might be concats.

Sandro Hawke: so good practice might be to start every turtle doc with "@graph . #go back to the default graph" if you think there might be concats. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:33:29 <pfps> ericP: some of this can be addressed by fiddling with embedding

Eric Prud'hommeaux: some of this can be addressed by fiddling with embedding

15:33:46 <Guus> ack ericP

Guus Schreiber: ack ericP

15:33:46 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say the semantics might be easier if each graph simply added to the "database" so repeats simply append

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say the semantics might be easier if each graph simply added to the "database" so repeats simply append

15:34:06 <pfps> ericP: concatenation has some negative consequences

Eric Prud'hommeaux: concatenation has some negative consequences

15:35:01 <pfps> ericP:  line-orientation also runs counter to concatenability

Eric Prud'hommeaux: line-orientation also runs counter to concatenability

15:35:20 <LeeF> We repeat the same graph ID a fair amount

Lee Feigenbaum: We repeat the same graph ID a fair amount

15:35:30 <LeeF> (in our TriG documents)

Lee Feigenbaum: (in our TriG documents)

15:35:33 <LeeF> And it's additive

Lee Feigenbaum: And it's additive

15:35:38 <pfps> AndyS: the (?) implementation of TRIG actually allows graph id repetition

Andy Seaborne: the (?) implementation of TRIG actually allows graph id repetition

15:36:13 <pfps> gavinc: but the semantics may not be best

Gavin Carothers: but the semantics may not be best

15:36:34 <sandro>  = vs +=

Sandro Hawke: = vs +=

15:36:36 <pfps> sandro: N3 has an implicit "=", so concatentation isn't the intended meaning

Sandro Hawke: N3 has an implicit "=", so concatentation isn't the intended meaning

15:36:48 <pfps> ericP: which version of N3

Andy Seaborne: which version of N3

15:37:01 <ericP> s/ericP/AndyS/
15:37:16 <pfps> sandro: both

Sandro Hawke: both

15:38:15 <sandro> sandro: for this week, I'm inclined to go with @graph, since it's more clear to me what it means.

Sandro Hawke: for this week, I'm inclined to go with @graph, since it's more clear to me what it means. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:38:21 <ericP> with the curly braces approach, we have a short way to write the grammar:

Eric Prud'hommeaux: with the curly braces approach, we have a short way to write the grammar:

15:38:22 <ericP> [1]    	trigDoc 	   ::=    	( directive | trigGraph )*

Eric Prud'hommeaux: [1] trigDoc ::= ( directive | trigGraph )*

15:38:22 <ericP> [2]    	trigGraph 	   ::=    	IRIref "="? "{" turtleDoc" "}" "."?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: [2] trigGraph ::= IRIref "="? "{" turtleDoc" "}" "."?

15:38:37 <ericP> and lean on the turtle spec

Eric Prud'hommeaux: and lean on the turtle spec

15:38:52 <pfps> sandro: @graph form - semantics??

Sandro Hawke: @graph form - semantics??

15:39:20 <gavinc> @graph . #go back to the default graph

Gavin Carothers: @graph . #go back to the default graph

15:39:22 <pfps> gavinc: not complete

Gavin Carothers: not complete

15:39:32 <sandro> sandro: when you hit the end of the turtle file, do you know exactly which triples are in each named graph?

Sandro Hawke: when you hit the end of the turtle file, do you know exactly which triples are in each named graph? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:40:10 <pfps> guus: any relationship to documents

Guus Schreiber: any relationship to documents

15:41:09 <pfps> ??

??

15:41:26 <ericP> q+ to say that i fiddled with making trig lean on Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/Trig

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say that i fiddled with making trig lean on Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/Trig

15:41:43 <pfps> sandro: dataset = gbox, gsnap is different

Sandro Hawke: dataset = gbox, gsnap is different

15:42:08 <pfps> gavinc: need something that shows complete graph contents

Gavin Carothers: need something that shows complete graph contents

15:42:44 <pfps> sandro: yes

Sandro Hawke: yes

15:42:51 <sandro> sandro: maybe = syntax will be clearer these are gsnaps

Sandro Hawke: maybe = syntax will be clearer these are gsnaps [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:43:09 <sandro> (uh oh - phone problems - may drop off without warning.)

Sandro Hawke: (uh oh - phone problems - may drop off without warning.)

15:43:22 <pfps> ericP: i fiddled with making trig lean on Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/Trig

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i fiddled with making trig lean on Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/Trig

15:43:35 <AndyS> Why not make Trig simply  +Turtle (unnamed {} optional) +NQuads (outside {})

Andy Seaborne: Why not make Trig simply +Turtle (unnamed {} optional) +NQuads (outside {})

15:44:34 <pfps> sandro:  how about splitting the difference?

Sandro Hawke: how about splitting the difference?

15:44:43 <pfps> AndyS: the strawman is more line oriented

Andy Seaborne: the strawman is more line oriented

15:45:02 <ericP> q-

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q-

15:45:08 <pfps> AndyS: this helps with relationship to n-quads

Andy Seaborne: this helps with relationship to n-quads

15:45:22 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:46:37 <sandro> [....] is nesting, yeah.

Sandro Hawke: [....] is nesting, yeah.

15:46:43 <pfps> gavinc: trig introduces nesting to turtle, which doesn't have much

Gavin Carothers: trig introduces nesting to turtle, which doesn't have much

15:47:18 <yvesr_> although only one degree of nesting (in trig)

Yves Raimond: although only one degree of nesting (in trig)

15:47:28 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

15:47:59 <pfps> TOPIC: Status RDF Dataset proposal

5. Status RDF Dataset proposal

15:48:09 <pfps> Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph

Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph

15:48:33 <pfps> guus: as Richard is not here, let's move on

Guus Schreiber: as Richard is not here, let's move on

15:48:44 <pfps> guus: ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals

Guus Schreiber: ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals

15:48:58 <pfps> guus: Results of poll so far: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/tagged_literals/results

Guus Schreiber: Results of poll so far: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/tagged_literals/results

15:49:42 <pfps> guus:  the proposals with only a few "no" votes are 1 and 2d

Guus Schreiber: the proposals with only a few "no" votes are 1 and 2d

15:49:56 <pfps> guus: the other proposals are very likely to be problematic

Guus Schreiber: the other proposals are very likely to be problematic

15:50:41 <pfps> guus: option 2d has fewer prefer not votes, so it appears to be a more-liked solution

Guus Schreiber: option 2d has fewer prefer not votes, so it appears to be a more-liked solution

15:51:12 <AZ> +1 to go on with 2d

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 to go on with 2d

15:51:17 <pfps> guus: shall we spend *more* time discussing this, or should we just try for 2d

Guus Schreiber: shall we spend *more* time discussing this, or should we just try for 2d

15:51:20 <gavinc> +1 to go with 2d

Gavin Carothers: +1 to go with 2d

15:51:24 <LeeF> I'm happy with 2d

Lee Feigenbaum: I'm happy with 2d

15:51:37 <pchampin> +1 to go on with 2d

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 to go on with 2d

15:51:40 <yvesr_> guus++

Yves Raimond: guus++

15:52:08 <ericP> Arnaud, did you say that the current RDF spec says that language tags are normalized to lower case?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Arnaud, did you say that the current RDF spec says that language tags are normalized to lower case?

15:52:47 <pfps> davidwood: should we spend some time looking at cleaning up various uses of string literals

David Wood: should we spend some time looking at cleaning up various uses of string literals

15:53:05 <gavinc> ericP, yes

Gavin Carothers: ericP, yes

15:53:29 <pfps> guus: spending scarce F2F time may not be the best way

Guus Schreiber: spending scarce F2F time may not be the best way

15:54:07 <pfps> guus: can we put forward a proposal (next week?) in preparation for a final decision at the F2F?

Guus Schreiber: can we put forward a proposal (next week?) in preparation for a final decision at the F2F?

15:54:13 <ericP> gavinc, wasnt' that why we gave up on the datatype approach?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, wasnt' that why we gave up on the datatype approach?

15:54:18 <pfps> davidwood: OK

David Wood: OK

15:54:27 <ericP> oh well, i'm not going to push anything

Eric Prud'hommeaux: oh well, i'm not going to push anything

15:54:51 <pfps> guus: i'll propose a resolution for next week (but maybe the initial proposer would be better)

Guus Schreiber: i'll propose a resolution for next week (but maybe the initial proposer would be better)

15:55:20 <AndyS> ericP - yes - sec 6.5 of "concepts"

Andy Seaborne: ericP - yes - sec 6.5 of "concepts"

15:55:40 <pfps> sandro:  we need to try to make a final resolution - no backsliding!

Sandro Hawke: we need to try to make a final resolution - no backsliding!

15:56:41 <pfps> ACTION guus: propose a resolution for next week on language-tagged-literals

ACTION guus: propose a resolution for next week on language-tagged-literals

15:56:05 <pfps> TOPIC: AOB

6. AOB

15:56:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-93 - Propose a resolution for next week on language-tagged-literals [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-10-05].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-93 - Propose a resolution for next week on language-tagged-literals [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-10-05].

15:57:01 <pfps> guus: adjourned

Guus Schreiber: adjourned

15:57:07 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

15:57:08 <yvesr_> bye!

Yves Raimond: bye!

15:57:08 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

15:57:10 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

15:57:10 <AZ> bye

Antoine Zimmermann: bye

15:57:11 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

15:57:11 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

15:57:11 <Zakim> -yvesr_

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr_

15:57:13 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

15:57:13 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus

15:57:14 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

15:57:14 <zwu2> bye

Zhe Wu: bye

15:57:16 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

15:57:17 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

15:57:20 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider

15:57:24 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

15:57:28 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

15:57:34 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

15:57:36 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer

15:58:31 <pfps> rrsagent, please set logs world-visible

rrsagent, please set logs world-visible

15:58:40 <pfps> rrsagent, please draft minutes

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:58:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-minutes.html pfps

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-minutes.html pfps

15:59:16 <pfps> rrsagent, please set minutes world-visible

rrsagent, please set minutes world-visible

15:59:16 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please set minutes world-visible', pfps.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'please set minutes world-visible', pfps. Try /msg RRSAgent help

16:08:17 <Zakim> -pchampin

(No events recorded for 9 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin

16:08:19 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

16:08:20 <Zakim> Attendees were +33.4.77.42.aabb, +1.443.212.aacc, Arnaud, +1.707.861.aadd, Peter_Patel-Schneider, MacTed, gavinc, AlexHall, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, Guus, PatH, AZ, yvesr_,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +33.4.77.42.aabb, +1.443.212.aacc, Arnaud, +1.707.861.aadd, Peter_Patel-Schneider, MacTed, gavinc, AlexHall, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, Guus, PatH, AZ, yvesr_,

16:08:22 <Zakim> ... +1.781.899.aaff, Sandro, pchampin, +1.650.265.aagg, zwu2, EricP, +1.603.897.aahh, Souri, AndyS, LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.781.899.aaff, Sandro, pchampin, +1.650.265.aagg, zwu2, EricP, +1.603.897.aahh, Souri, AndyS, LeeF

16:08:48 <pfps> rrsagent, please draft minutes

rrsagent, please draft minutes

16:08:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-minutes.html pfps

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-minutes.html pfps

16:09:14 <gavinc> Those aren't are minutes system btw ;)

Gavin Carothers: Those aren't are minutes system btw ;)

16:10:26 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/

Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/



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