None.
16:11:04 <sandro> Guest: Luc Moreau
16:11:09 <sandro> Guest: Paul Groth
16:12:43 <sandro> guest: Kai (Kai_) Eckert
16:11:28 <sandro> guest: Paolo Missier
<sandro> Guest: Satya Sahoo
<sandro> Guest: Yolanda Gil
16:12:07 <Zakim> +davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood ←
16:01:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-rdf-wg-irc ←
16:01:42 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
16:02:01 <sandro> Meeting: Provenance and RDF Graphs -- Coordination Telecon
16:02:13 <sandro> zakim, this is rdfg
Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdfg ←
16:02:17 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG(GraphsTF)12:00PM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG(GraphsTF)12:00PM ←
16:02:52 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Sept 15 -- Provenance Task Force -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15
Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: Sept 15 -- Provenance Task Force -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15 ←
16:02:58 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
16:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P0, Sandro ←
16:03:31 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
16:03:50 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer ←
16:03:51 <Zakim> +??P44
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P44 ←
16:04:03 <sandro> zakim, ??P2 is Paul_Groth
Sandro Hawke: zakim, ??P2 is Paul_Groth ←
16:04:03 <Zakim> +Paul_Groth; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Paul_Groth; got it ←
16:04:09 <kai_> zakim, ??P4 is me.
Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P4 is me. ←
16:04:09 <Zakim> +kai_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kai_; got it ←
16:04:58 <Zakim> +??P46
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P46 ←
16:05:06 <AndyS> zakim, ??P46 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P46 is me ←
16:05:06 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:05:36 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
16:05:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, Sandro, Paul_Groth, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P0, Sandro, Paul_Groth, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS ←
16:06:07 <sandro> zakim, drop ??P0
Sandro Hawke: zakim, drop ??P0 ←
16:06:07 <Zakim> ??P0 is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: ??P0 is being disconnected ←
16:06:09 <Zakim> -??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P0 ←
16:06:33 <Zakim> +gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc ←
16:07:14 <Scott_Bauer> plans to attend: Antoine Zimmermann, Ted Thibodeau, Andy Seaborne, David Wood, Gavin Carothers, Sandro Hawke, Steve Harris ** may attend: Ivan Herman, Scott Bauer, Pierre-Antoine Champin
Scott Bauer: plans to attend: Antoine Zimmermann, Ted Thibodeau, Andy Seaborne, David Wood, Gavin Carothers, Sandro Hawke, Steve Harris ** may attend: Ivan Herman, Scott Bauer, Pierre-Antoine Champin ←
16:07:22 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
Gavin Carothers: zakim, mute me ←
16:07:23 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted ←
16:07:33 <Scott_Bauer> ok sorry
Scott Bauer: ok sorry ←
16:07:54 <pgroth> Luc Moreau, pgroth, Kai, Paolo, MacTed
Paul Groth: Luc Moreau, pgroth, Kai, Paolo, MacTed ←
16:08:19 <gavinc> I don't think Ralph is going to be here, wasn't sure last night
Gavin Carothers: I don't think Ralph is going to be here, wasn't sure last night ←
16:08:35 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
16:08:35 <AndyS> Agenda -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15
Andy Seaborne: Agenda -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15 ←
16:09:29 <AndyS> Material -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph
Andy Seaborne: Material -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph ←
16:09:57 <Zakim> +Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc ←
16:10:02 <sandro> Luc Moreau, Paul Groth, Kai Eckert, Paolo Missier, Ted Thibodeau
Sandro Hawke: Luc Moreau, Paul Groth, Kai Eckert, Paolo Missier, Ted Thibodeau ←
16:10:44 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15#Admin
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15#Admin ←
16:10:48 <Zakim> +??P52
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P52 ←
16:11:01 <Paolo> zakim, ??P52 is me
Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P52 is me ←
16:11:01 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it ←
16:13:25 <Luc> @pgroth, is satya joining?
Luc Moreau: @pgroth, is satya joining? ←
16:13:34 <pgroth> I don't know
Paul Groth: I don't know ←
16:15:14 <pgroth> @Luc I have to leave in 40 minutes
Paul Groth: @Luc I have to leave in 40 minutes ←
16:15:36 <Luc> @pgroth OK
Luc Moreau: @pgroth OK ←
16:16:07 <Paolo> what's happening?
Paolo Missier: what's happening? ←
16:16:30 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
16:16:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Paul_Groth, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS, gavinc (muted), AZ, Luc, Paolo, davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Paul_Groth, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS, gavinc (muted), AZ, Luc, Paolo, davidwood ←
16:16:44 <Zakim> +Yolanda
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda ←
16:17:02 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo ←
16:17:27 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code? ←
16:17:27 <Zakim> the conference code is 7334 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7334 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed ←
16:17:32 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15
16:17:33 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
16:17:40 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
16:17:40 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
16:17:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:17:43 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:18:11 <Zakim> -Yolanda
Zakim IRC Bot: -Yolanda ←
16:18:37 <pgroth> Scribe: Satya Sahoo
(Scribe set to Satya Sahoo)
16:19:07 <satya> Luc: Introductions for the provenance WG
Luc Moreau: Introductions for the provenance WG ←
16:19:49 <satya> Luc: After the first provenance WG F2F, started work on two working drafts
Luc Moreau: After the first provenance WG F2F, started work on two working drafts ←
16:20:17 <satya> Luc: 1. First working draft describes the provenance "conceptual model"
Luc Moreau: 1. First working draft describes the provenance "conceptual model" ←
16:20:54 <satya> Luc: 2. Second working draft describes encoding the provenance conceptual model in OWL2
Luc Moreau: 2. Second working draft describes encoding the provenance conceptual model in OWL2 ←
16:21:26 <satya> Luc: 3. Third working draft describes the protocol for accessing and querying provenance information
Luc Moreau: 3. Third working draft describes the protocol for accessing and querying provenance information ←
16:22:24 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:22:25 <satya> Luc: In future, additional working drafts will be created including a Primer, XML encoding of the provenance conceptual model
Luc Moreau: In future, additional working drafts will be created including a Primer, XML encoding of the provenance conceptual model ←
16:22:53 <satya> Luc: questions?
Luc Moreau: questions? ←
16:23:15 <satya> David: The source of the requirement for encoding provenance model in XML?
David Wood: The source of the requirement for encoding provenance model in XML? ←
16:23:33 <sandro> luc: requirement for native XML serialization; some people want that; and JSON serialization. Non-RDF.
Luc Moreau: requirement for native XML serialization; some people want that; and JSON serialization. Non-RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:23:38 <satya> Luc: There has been interest in non-RDF serialization
Luc Moreau: There has been interest in non-RDF serialization ←
16:23:45 <gavinc> I'm confused how needing a JSON seralization means we need an XML serialization
Gavin Carothers: I'm confused how needing a JSON seralization means we need an XML serialization ←
16:24:07 <sandro> :-)
Sandro Hawke: :-) ←
16:24:31 <sandro> paul: plan to refer to group of triples by a URI
Paul Groth: plan to refer to group of triples by a URI [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:24:31 <satya> David: can you please repeat your initial query
David, can you please repeat your initial query ←
16:24:37 <pgroth> q+
Paul Groth: q+ ←
16:24:40 <Luc> @gavinc, this is a separate requirement, sorry for not being clear
Luc Moreau: @gavinc, this is a separate requirement, sorry for not being clear ←
16:24:50 <sandro> s/David:/David,/
16:25:01 <AndyS> I heard that there was a need for straight XML (charter) and now Luc finds he needs JSON (as well, presumably)
Andy Seaborne: I heard that there was a need for straight XML (charter) and now Luc finds he needs JSON (as well, presumably) ←
16:25:13 <satya> David: Is there a assumption that a group of RDF triples need to be referred to using an URI?
David Wood: Is there a assumption that a group of RDF triples need to be referred to using an URI? ←
16:25:20 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
16:25:25 <satya> Paul: Yes to David's question
Paul Groth: Yes to David's question ←
16:25:31 <gavinc> Ah, okay thanks AndyS
Gavin Carothers: Ah, okay thanks AndyS ←
16:25:49 <Luc> thanks, AndyS
Luc Moreau: thanks, AndyS ←
16:25:55 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
16:25:56 <satya> Paul: In query and access document, discusses use of URLs
Paul Groth: In query and access document, discusses use of URLs ←
16:25:58 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
16:26:24 <davidwood> I understand that provenance concerns resources other than RDF :)
David Wood: I understand that provenance concerns resources other than RDF :) ←
16:27:01 <satya> Luc: Uses an example scenario regarding an HTML document, the user tries to retrieve the provenance of the HMTL document
Luc Moreau: Uses an example scenario regarding an HTML document, the user tries to retrieve the provenance of the HMTL document ←
16:27:24 <satya> Luc: Assume the use of HTTP for retrieving the provenance of the HTML document
Luc Moreau: Assume the use of HTTP for retrieving the provenance of the HTML document ←
16:28:00 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:29:02 <satya> David: assumes that the resource and the provenance are distinct and can be independently accessed?
David Wood: assumes that the resource and the provenance are distinct and can be independently accessed? ←
16:29:02 <sandro> davidwood: Can I have provancence of an XL spreadsheet without modifying the spreadsheet?
David Wood: Can I have provancence of an XL spreadsheet without modifying the spreadsheet? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:29:42 <sandro> gavin, I think you mean "can't *require* modifying...."
Sandro Hawke: gavin, I think you mean "can't *require* modifying...." ←
16:29:49 <gavinc> errr, yes.
Gavin Carothers: errr, yes. ←
16:29:52 <satya> Luc: There are several mechanism to access the provenance, a document may contain a reference to source to retrieve the provenance
Luc Moreau: There are several mechanism to access the provenance, a document may contain a reference to source to retrieve the provenance ←
16:29:55 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:29:56 <sandro> gavin, Luc is sayin that's one option.
Sandro Hawke: gavin, Luc is sayin that's one option. ←
16:30:13 <davidwood> RDF WG Charter: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdf-wg-charter
David Wood: RDF WG Charter: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdf-wg-charter ←
16:30:45 <satya> David: Describing RDF named graphs, as described in the RDF WG charter
David Wood: Describing RDF named graphs, as described in the RDF WG charter ←
16:31:11 <satya> David: The description in the RDF WG charter is not definitive, will be decided by the WG
David Wood: The description in the RDF WG charter is not definitive, will be decided by the WG ←
16:31:20 <davidwood> RDF WG requirements: Define terminology in relation to named graphs
David Wood: RDF WG requirements: Define terminology in relation to named graphs ←
16:31:26 <davidwood> "Standardize a model and semantics for multiple graphs and graphs stores"
David Wood: "Standardize a model and semantics for multiple graphs and graphs stores" ←
16:32:04 <sandro> davidwood: THere will be times we want to discuss the proveance of a singel triples, a group of triples, and times we dont' care.
David Wood: THere will be times we want to discuss the proveance of a singel triples, a group of triples, and times we dont' care. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:32:11 <satya> David: Provenance of a single triple and provenance of a group of triples
David Wood: Provenance of a single triple and provenance of a group of triples ←
16:32:15 <satya> @Sandro :)
@Sandro :) ←
16:32:55 <satya> David: The teminology will be decided in future
David Wood: The teminology will be decided in future ←
16:32:59 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:33:03 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:33:10 <satya> @Sandro: thanks! It helps, I keep falling behind
@Sandro: thanks! It helps, I keep falling behind ←
16:34:07 <satya> Sandro: The proposal for named graph is minimal, it associated a URI to a group of triples (graph)
Sandro Hawke: The proposal for named graph is minimal, it associated a URI to a group of triples (graph) ←
16:34:40 <satya> Sandro: It was claimed that this met the requirements stated in the RDF WG charter
Sandro Hawke: It was claimed that this met the requirements stated in the RDF WG charter ←
16:35:22 <davidwood> Personally (chair hat off), I agree with Sandro on this.
David Wood: Personally (chair hat off), I agree with Sandro on this. ←
16:35:33 <satya> Sandro: Hope that concrete use cases can be shared by prov WG with RDF WG
Sandro Hawke: Hope that concrete use cases can be shared by prov WG with RDF WG ←
16:37:04 <satya> Luc: In SW community, there is a need to be able to make assertions about a group of triples and the RDF WG expects suggestions from prov WG
Luc Moreau: In SW community, there is a need to be able to make assertions about a group of triples and the RDF WG expects suggestions from prov WG ←
16:37:13 <sandro> luc: "Provenance and Access Query" -- the problem of how folks give metadata to RDF data.
Luc Moreau: "Provenance and Access Query" -- the problem of how folks give metadata to RDF data. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:37:31 <sandro> luc: ALSO, we need a way to scope provenance assertions that we've expressed as RDF.
Luc Moreau: ALSO, we need a way to scope provenance assertions that we've expressed as RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:37:48 <satya> Luc: Need mechanisms to scope provenance assertions, named graphs may be a mechanism to support it
Luc Moreau: Need mechanisms to scope provenance assertions, named graphs may be a mechanism to support it ←
16:38:17 <davidwood> q+ to ask how a provenance description can refer to a resource that doesn't have a URI.
David Wood: q+ to ask how a provenance description can refer to a resource that doesn't have a URI. ←
16:38:25 <satya> Sandro: Luc's example requirement is an advanced requirement for named graph
Sandro Hawke: Luc's example requirement is an advanced requirement for named graph ←
16:38:46 <gavinc> Can someone write down that "First use case"?
Gavin Carothers: Can someone write down that "First use case"? ←
16:39:22 <gavinc> was it "there is a need to be able to make assertions about a group of triples" ?
Gavin Carothers: was it "there is a need to be able to make assertions about a group of triples" ? ←
16:39:55 <satya> Luc: The first use case at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/provenance-access.html, describes a scenario for retrieving provenance in RDF/XML format of a HTML document
Luc Moreau: The first use case at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/provenance-access.html, describes a scenario for retrieving provenance in RDF/XML format of a HTML document ←
16:40:25 <satya> q+
q+ ←
16:41:04 <pgroth> ack sandro
Paul Groth: ack sandro ←
16:41:05 <Luc> ack sandro
Luc Moreau: ack sandro ←
16:41:11 <satya> Sandro: Need to take a first pass on named graph problem before trying to tackle issue of scoping (?)
Sandro Hawke: Need to take a first pass on named graph problem before trying to tackle issue of scoping (?) ←
16:41:13 <sandro> sandro: I suggest tacking the metadata problem (Luc 1) before the representation/serialization problem (Luc 2).
Sandro Hawke: I suggest tacking the metadata problem (Luc 1) before the representation/serialization problem (Luc 2). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:41:57 <satya> David: Worried about some of Luc's assertions related to the provenance use case
David Wood: Worried about some of Luc's assertions related to the provenance use case ←
16:42:29 <satya> David: What happens if a resource may not have a URI associated with it
David Wood: What happens if a resource may not have a URI associated with it ←
16:43:04 <MacTed> q+ to say that the perfect seems to be blocking a starting point
Ted Thibodeau: q+ to say that the perfect seems to be blocking a starting point ←
16:43:15 <satya> David: There is a divide in RDF WG - (a) all RDF comes from RDF databases (b) RDF comes from files on the Web
David Wood: There is a divide in RDF WG - (a) all RDF comes from RDF databases (b) RDF comes from files on the Web ←
16:43:21 <davidwood> ack davidwood
David Wood: ack davidwood ←
16:43:22 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask how a provenance description can refer to a resource that doesn't have a URI.
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to ask how a provenance description can refer to a resource that doesn't have a URI. ←
16:43:35 <satya> Paul: We would like to address both the issues
Paul Groth: We would like to address both the issues ←
16:44:17 <satya> Paul: An entity (file) is identified by a set of characteristics
Paul Groth: An entity (file) is identified by a set of characteristics ←
16:44:57 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:45:06 <Luc> ack satya
Luc Moreau: ack satya ←
16:45:56 <sandro> satya: "scoping" brings into question contextualizing, which I don't think the RDF/SemWeb folks have dealt with. There is an assumption that RDF is not related to context.
Satya Sahoo: "scoping" brings into question contextualizing, which I don't think the RDF/SemWeb folks have dealt with. There is an assumption that RDF is not related to context. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:46:02 <sandro> +1 agreed
Sandro Hawke: +1 agreed ←
16:46:10 <MacTed> Zakim, unmte me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmte me ←
16:46:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmte me', MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'unmte me', MacTed ←
16:46:16 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:46:16 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:46:22 <Luc> ack mact
Luc Moreau: ack mact ←
16:46:22 <Zakim> MacTed, you wanted to say that the perfect seems to be blocking a starting point
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, you wanted to say that the perfect seems to be blocking a starting point ←
16:47:05 <sandro> MacTed: I'm concerned that people are making very tight readings, when not warranted. downloading from web usually just mean viewing-in-browser.
Ted Thibodeau: I'm concerned that people are making very tight readings, when not warranted. downloading from web usually just mean viewing-in-browser. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:47:21 <satya> MacTed: Terminology used in description of use cases is not very specific, but is being interpreted in that sense
Ted Thibodeau: Terminology used in description of use cases is not very specific, but is being interpreted in that sense ←
16:47:22 <davidwood> +1 to MacTed. That's another reason we are being careful to define our terminology.
David Wood: +1 to MacTed. That's another reason we are being careful to define our terminology. ←
16:47:26 <sandro> MacTed: There is a need to talk about a collected set of triples. "Named Graph". A subset of triples.
Ted Thibodeau: There is a need to talk about a collected set of triples. "Named Graph". A subset of triples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:47:34 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:47:36 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:47:59 <sandro> q+ to mention Graphs issues
Sandro Hawke: q+ to mention Graphs issues ←
16:48:06 <satya> MacTed: There is a requirement to be able to refer to a collection of triples
Ted Thibodeau: There is a requirement to be able to refer to a collection of triples ←
16:48:13 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:48:47 <satya> MacTed: Should be able to refer to set of triples consistently by different persons/users
Ted Thibodeau: Should be able to refer to set of triples consistently by different persons/users ←
16:49:19 <satya> MacTed: There is communication gap between the RDF WG and prov WG and the call is help reconcile that
Ted Thibodeau: There is communication gap between the RDF WG and prov WG and the call is help reconcile that ←
16:49:42 <sandro> davidwood: The hope is RDF WG will publish it's chosen terms shortly.
David Wood: The hope is RDF WG will publish it's chosen terms shortly. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:49:47 <sandro> ... for public review
Sandro Hawke: ... for public review ←
16:49:51 <satya> David: Hope to define the terms in RDF WG
David Wood: Hope to define the terms in RDF WG ←
16:50:18 <satya> MacTed: The lack of terminology in prov WG is blocking progress
Ted Thibodeau: The lack of terminology in prov WG is blocking progress ←
16:50:27 <satya> David: Similar issue in RDF WG
David Wood: Similar issue in RDF WG ←
16:50:33 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:50:39 <Luc> ack sandro
Luc Moreau: ack sandro ←
16:50:39 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to mention Graphs issues
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to mention Graphs issues ←
16:50:50 <satya> Sandro: Temporarily agreed on some terms to help progress
Sandro Hawke: Temporarily agreed on some terms to help progress ←
16:50:52 <pgroth> q+
Paul Groth: q+ ←
16:51:10 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology ←
16:51:32 <gavinc> The temporary terms
Gavin Carothers: The temporary terms ←
16:51:47 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/1
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/1 ←
16:51:48 <satya> Sandro: Gsnap and GBox terms defined in RDF WG
Sandro Hawke: Gsnap and GBox terms defined in RDF WG ←
16:52:38 <satya> Sandro: We need to be explicit about the blank nodes - whether they can be shared
Sandro Hawke: We need to be explicit about the blank nodes - whether they can be shared ←
16:52:42 <satya> q+
q+ ←
16:52:47 <davidwood> I expect *any* resource to be ephemeral within some degree of time, so nothing we will do in the RDF WG or the Provenance WG will remove the 404 problem from the Web, nor do we need to try.
David Wood: I expect *any* resource to be ephemeral within some degree of time, so nothing we will do in the RDF WG or the Provenance WG will remove the 404 problem from the Web, nor do we need to try. ←
16:52:52 <Luc> ack pgro
Luc Moreau: ack pgro ←
16:52:57 <sandro> (issue-21 is shared-bnodes)
Sandro Hawke: (ISSUE-21 is shared-bnodes) ←
16:53:20 <gavinc> ISSUE-21?
16:53:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- open ←
16:53:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21 ←
16:53:38 <satya> Paul: can the provenance WG conceptual model document help the RDF WG arrive at common terminology
Paul Groth: can the provenance WG conceptual model document help the RDF WG arrive at common terminology ←
16:54:02 <davidwood> q+ to ask whether the Provenance WG understands our g-* temporary terminology.
David Wood: q+ to ask whether the Provenance WG understands our g-* temporary terminology. ←
16:54:09 <satya> Luc: Yes, we can explore this
Luc Moreau: Yes, we can explore this ←
16:54:32 <pgroth> gotta go
Paul Groth: gotta go ←
16:54:36 <pgroth> good luck everyone
Paul Groth: good luck everyone ←
16:54:39 <davidwood> Thanks, Paul
David Wood: Thanks, Paul ←
16:54:56 <Zakim> -Paul_Groth
Zakim IRC Bot: -Paul_Groth ←
16:55:17 <satya> Luc: Struggled in the provenance WG to define a term for an resource - e.g.: ability to refer to a file at a location with some content and the same file with different content
Luc Moreau: Struggled in the provenance WG to define a term for an resource - e.g.: ability to refer to a file at a location with some content and the same file with different content ←
16:55:38 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:55:39 <satya> Luc: Sandro may be referring to the same problem
Luc Moreau: Sandro may be referring to the same problem ←
16:55:42 <AndyS> +1 to show and tell
Andy Seaborne: +1 to show and tell ←
16:56:01 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:56:06 <Luc> ack saty
Luc Moreau: ack saty ←
16:57:15 <satya> Satya: What is the plan for sharing of blank nodes and association of semantics with it?
Satya Sahoo: What is the plan for sharing of blank nodes and association of semantics with it? ←
16:57:32 <satya> Sandro: May modify the skolem function to address this
Sandro Hawke: May modify the skolem function to address this ←
16:58:12 <satya> David: Has the provenance WG understood the Gsnap, Gbox etc. being used by RDF WG
David Wood: Has the provenance WG understood the Gsnap, Gbox etc. being used by RDF WG ←
16:58:21 <davidwood> ack davidwood
David Wood: ack davidwood ←
16:58:21 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask whether the Provenance WG understands our g-* temporary terminology.
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to ask whether the Provenance WG understands our g-* temporary terminology. ←
16:58:30 <satya> Luc: No, we have not explored the terms
Luc Moreau: No, we have not explored the terms ←
16:58:48 <satya> @Luc: I have to leave
@Luc: I have to leave ←
16:58:52 <satya> sorry
sorry ←
16:59:13 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo ←
16:59:17 <sandro> scribe: sandro
(Scribe set to Sandro Hawke)
16:59:18 <Paolo> leaving too, thank you
Paolo Missier: leaving too, thank you ←
16:59:27 <Zakim> -Paolo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo ←
16:59:34 <sandro> luc: What are we doing next, procedurally?
Luc Moreau: What are we doing next, procedurally? ←
16:59:35 <gavinc> Luc: Wrapping up in the next 10 minutes, rather then talking about an example
Luc Moreau: Wrapping up in the next 10 minutes, rather then talking about an example [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ] ←
16:59:45 <sandro> davidwood: eg schedule next coordination call?
David Wood: eg schedule next coordination call? ←
16:59:56 <sandro> davidwood: After F2F, and after WDs.
David Wood: After F2F, and after WDs. ←
17:00:06 <sandro> davidwood: 12th & 13th of october.
David Wood: 12th & 13th of october. ←
17:00:08 <sandro> q+
q+ ←
17:00:16 <gavinc> Could we get shared concrete examples BEFORE the next call?
Gavin Carothers: Could we get shared concrete examples BEFORE the next call? ←
17:00:22 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
17:00:39 <davidwood> Input: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph
David Wood: Input: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph ←
17:00:45 <gavinc> sandro: What input do we have?
Sandro Hawke: What input do we have? [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ] ←
17:01:16 <gavinc> luc: two kinds of requirements, none of them are expressed at the level of detail mentioned, using temp graphs
Luc Moreau: two kinds of requirements, none of them are expressed at the level of detail mentioned, using temp graphs [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ] ←
17:01:27 <gavinc> sandro: need use cases
Sandro Hawke: need use cases [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ] ←
17:02:02 <gavinc> sandro: Thought we could get some use cases durring this call
Sandro Hawke: Thought we could get some use cases durring this call [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ] ←
17:02:31 <gavinc> davidwood: Are there one or two use cases that you know we have?
David Wood: Are there one or two use cases that you know we have? [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ] ←
17:02:39 <sandro> sandro: I wanted uses cases before the F2F. Use cases like "communicating that Alice asserted certain triples (mutably, or immutably)".
Sandro Hawke: I wanted uses cases before the F2F. Use cases like "communicating that Alice asserted certain triples (mutably, or immutably)". ←
17:02:50 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
zakim, who is on the call? ←
17:02:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS, gavinc (muted), AZ, Luc, davidwood, MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS, gavinc (muted), AZ, Luc, davidwood, MacTed ←
17:03:53 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
17:03:59 <sandro> ted: Most of the use cases feel self evident, like what Sandro just said. An entity asserts triples; that collection needs to be referred to. If they have to be classed differently based on mutability, then they fall into one of two classes.
Ted Thibodeau: Most of the use cases feel self evident, like what Sandro just said. An entity asserts triples; that collection needs to be referred to. If they have to be classed differently based on mutability, then they fall into one of two classes. ←
17:04:03 <sandro> q-
q- ←
17:04:15 <sandro> ack AndyS
ack AndyS ←
17:04:19 <sandro> AndyS?
AndyS? ←
17:05:42 <sandro> AndyS: I think we need to get a lot more concrete on use cases. Some things hard to cover with g-star technology. Because we have two groups, and it's remote, we need VERY concrete cases, with real detail. Within that, decide on one or two we care about most, to be sure they can be done. Some risk that full set of requirements wont be met.
Andy Seaborne: I think we need to get a lot more concrete on use cases. Some things hard to cover with g-star technology. Because we have two groups, and it's remote, we need VERY concrete cases, with real detail. Within that, decide on one or two we care about most, to be sure they can be done. Some risk that full set of requirements wont be met. ←
17:06:04 <sandro> ... I can see us taking too long if make it too broad, so let's focus on VERY concrete things that matter.
... I can see us taking too long if make it too broad, so let's focus on VERY concrete things that matter. ←
17:06:11 <davidwood> q+
David Wood: q+ ←
17:06:17 <sandro> luc: What's hard to map to g-star?
Luc Moreau: What's hard to map to g-star? ←
17:06:23 <sandro> AndyS: yes, but no time right now.
Andy Seaborne: yes, but no time right now. ←
17:06:55 <sandro> AndyS: Show and tell could be good. Hard to tell the other side is bring precise.
Andy Seaborne: Show and tell could be good. Hard to tell the other side is bring precise. ←
17:07:30 <sandro> public-rdf-prov list?
public-rdf-prov list? ←
17:07:43 <AndyS> ack me
Andy Seaborne: ack me ←
17:08:12 <sandro> luc: Ted and Sandro write it down and let Prov-WG review it.
Luc Moreau: Ted and Sandro write it down and let Prov-WG review it. ←
17:09:10 <kai_> q+ to ask for bridge persons between the two groups
Kai Eckert: q+ to ask for bridge persons between the two groups ←
17:09:58 <sandro> kai_: We're looking for bridge group.
Kai Eckert: We're looking for bridge group. ←
17:10:19 <Luc> ack kai
Luc Moreau: ack kai ←
17:10:19 <Zakim> kai_, you wanted to ask for bridge persons between the two groups
Zakim IRC Bot: kai_, you wanted to ask for bridge persons between the two groups ←
17:11:00 <sandro> davidwood: Can we agree to only refer to things by URI ?
David Wood: Can we agree to only refer to things by URI ? ←
17:11:14 <davidwood> ack me
David Wood: ack me ←
17:12:03 <sandro> luc: Ultimately, we want to talk about provenance of resources, but we don't jhave the final story. Using URIs is definitely one of our hypotheses.
Luc Moreau: Ultimately, we want to talk about provenance of resources, but we don't jhave the final story. Using URIs is definitely one of our hypotheses. ←
17:12:12 <kai_> I ask people who are interested to help in the communication between the two groups to contact me.
Kai Eckert: I ask people who are interested to help in the communication between the two groups to contact me. ←
17:12:18 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
17:12:20 <sandro> luc: davidwood can you ask this to the new mailing list?
Luc Moreau: davidwood can you ask this to the new mailing list? ←
17:12:31 <sandro> kai_, why not just ask themt o join the list?
kai_, why not just ask themt o join the list? ←
17:12:36 <MacTed> from my perspective, Prov is *not* only interested in provenance of "web" resources nor "resources" per se -- but *entities*
Ted Thibodeau: from my perspective, Prov is *not* only interested in provenance of "web" resources nor "resources" per se -- but *entities* ←
17:13:04 <kai_> @sandro works, too :-)
Kai Eckert: @sandro works, too :-) ←
17:13:05 <davidwood> MacTed, what is an entity?
David Wood: MacTed, what is an entity? ←
17:13:13 <MacTed> a thing which can be named
Ted Thibodeau: a thing which can be named ←
17:13:26 <gavinc> Named with what? ;)
Gavin Carothers: Named with what? ;) ←
17:13:32 <davidwood> Named via a URI? ;)
David Wood: Named via a IRI? ;) ←
17:13:33 <gavinc> say ... an IRI? ;)
Gavin Carothers: say ... an IRI? ;) ←
17:13:45 <davidwood> s/URI/IRI/
17:14:28 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
17:14:38 <AZ> bye
Antoine Zimmermann: bye ←
17:14:42 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
17:14:43 <MacTed> preferably, yes -- IRI. my concern is not to limit to "resource" nor "web resource" -- because when docs are written that way, people take them to be not viable for concrete things
Ted Thibodeau: preferably, yes -- IRI. my concern is not to limit to "resource" nor "web resource" -- because when docs are written that way, people take them to be not viable for concrete things ←
17:14:43 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
17:14:44 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
17:14:45 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer ←
17:14:46 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
17:14:46 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
17:14:47 <Zakim> -kai_
Zakim IRC Bot: -kai_ ←
17:14:50 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
17:14:54 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
17:14:55 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG(GraphsTF)12:00PM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG(GraphsTF)12:00PM has ended ←
17:14:56 <MacTed> (where "concrete" means "not network transmissible")
Ted Thibodeau: (where "concrete" means "not network transmissible") ←
17:14:57 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, Scott_Bauer, Paul_Groth, kai_, AndyS, gavinc, AZ, Luc, Paolo, davidwood, Yolanda, Satya_Sahoo, MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Sandro, Scott_Bauer, Paul_Groth, kai_, AndyS, gavinc, AZ, Luc, Paolo, davidwood, Yolanda, Satya_Sahoo, MacTed ←
17:15:41 <davidwood> MacTed, REST allows *anything* to be a resource.
David Wood: MacTed, REST allows *anything* to be a resource. ←
17:15:51 <davidwood> …and thus named
David Wood: …and thus named ←
17:16:12 <sandro> ie Ted is talking about "Non-Information-Resources"
ie Ted is talking about "Non-Information-Resources" ←
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