edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 15 June 2011

Seen
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Christopher Matheus, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Fabien Gandon, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Jeremy Carroll, Lee Feigenbaum, Matteo Brunati, Mischa Tuffield, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Richard Cyganiak, Scott Bauer, Souripriya Das, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu
Chair
David Wood
Scribe
Scott Bauer
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. to accept the summer telecon schedule. link
  2. Issue-59 was CLOSED because it was opened in error by the last RDF WG. See: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59 link
  3. Issue-62 was OPENED because we need to consider it properly. See: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/62 link
  4. to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same link
Topics
14:26:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-rdf-wg-irc

14:26:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:26:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:26:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 34 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 34 minutes

14:26:59 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:27:00 <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2011
14:55:42 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 28 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

14:55:49 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.861.aaaa

14:56:43 <Zakim> +Bernadette

Zakim IRC Bot: +Bernadette

14:57:01 <davidwood> Zakim, Bernadette is davidwood

David Wood: Zakim, Bernadette is davidwood

14:57:01 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

14:57:13 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
14:57:20 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.760.705.aabb

14:57:23 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:57:23 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:57:25 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:57:25 <Zakim> +Tony

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony

14:57:39 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me

Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is me

14:57:39 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it

14:58:49 <Zakim> +??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13

14:58:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

14:58:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, +1.760.705.aabb, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, ??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, +1.760.705.aabb, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, ??P13

14:58:51 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

14:59:01 <AZ> Zakim, Bernadette is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, Bernadette is me

14:59:02 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named 'Bernadette'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named 'Bernadette'

14:59:02 <mbrunati> zakim ??P13 is me

Matteo Brunati: zakim ??P13 is me

14:59:25 <gavin> If you were Bernadatte now your davidwood ;)

Gavin Carothers: If you were Bernadatte now your davidwood ;)

14:59:26 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P13 is me

Matteo Brunati: zakim, ??P13 is me

14:59:31 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mbrunati; got it

14:59:37 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

14:59:37 <LeeF> AZ, bernadette was davidwood, not you

Lee Feigenbaum: AZ, bernadette was davidwood, not you

14:59:54 <davidwood> AZ, Bernadette dialed from our office number earlier for the SWCG call, so I'm sure it is me now.

David Wood: AZ, Bernadette dialed from our office number earlier for the SWCG call, so I'm sure it is me now.

14:59:57 <Zakim> +[Sophia]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[Sophia]

15:00:09 <cmatheus> zakim, ??P6 is me

Christopher Matheus: zakim, ??P6 is me

15:00:09 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cmatheus; got it

15:01:08 <AZ> Zakim, +1.760.705.aabb is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, +1.760.705.aabb is me

15:01:08 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aacc

15:01:26 <AlexHall> zakim, aacc is me

Alex Hall: zakim, aacc is me

15:01:26 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

15:01:31 <Zakim> + +1.303.474.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.303.474.aadd

15:01:48 <Zakim> +??P18

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18

15:01:52 <AndyS> zakim, ??P18 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P18 is me

15:01:52 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:02:57 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:03:00 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

15:03:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:03:06 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:03:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:03:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:03:08 <pfps> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Peter Patel-Schneider: Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:03:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd, AndyS, MacTed, Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd, AndyS, MacTed, Souri

15:03:21 <Zakim> +??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28

15:03:30 <Zakim> +??P33

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P33

15:03:40 <pfps> Zakim, mute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: Zakim, mute me

15:03:42 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pfps, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

15:03:44 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P28 is yvesr

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P28 is yvesr

15:03:45 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:04:06 <mischat> zakim, ??�P33 is me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??�P33 is me

15:04:06 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '??�P33'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '??�P33'

15:04:38 <mischat> zakim, +??P33 is mischat

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, +??P33 is mischat

15:04:38 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'

15:04:46 <mischat> zakim, +??P33 is me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, +??P33 is me

15:04:46 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'

15:04:47 <Scott_Bauer> rrsagent, make records public

Scott Bauer: rrsagent, make records public

15:04:57 <davidwood> pfps, 61#

David Wood: pfps, 61#

15:05:20 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:05:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, ??P33

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, +1.303.474.aadd (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, ??P33

15:05:23 <zwu2> zakim, code?

Zhe Wu: zakim, code?

15:05:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2

15:05:31 <MacTed> Zakim, P33 is mischat

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, P33 is mischat

15:05:31 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I do not recognize a party named 'P33'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, MacTed, I do not recognize a party named 'P33'

15:05:33 <Scott_Bauer> Scribe: Scott_Bauer

(Scribe set to Scott Bauer)

15:05:34 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:05:34 <pfps> Zakim, MacTed is me

Peter Patel-Schneider: Zakim, MacTed is me

15:05:34 <Zakim> +pfps; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps; got it

15:05:45 <davidwood> scribenick: Scott_Bauer
15:05:58 <Zakim> +[Sophia.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[Sophia.a]

15:05:59 <Zakim> + +1.408.642.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.642.aaee

15:06:06 <MacTed> Zakim, ??P33 is mischat

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, ??P33 is mischat

15:06:06 <Zakim> +mischat; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it

15:06:09 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.415.586.aaff

15:06:15 <FabGandon> Zakim, Sophia.a is me

Fabien Gandon: Zakim, Sophia.a is me

15:06:15 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +FabGandon; got it

15:06:15 <MacTed> Zakim, pfps is OpenLink_Software

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, pfps is OpenLink_Software

15:06:17 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software; got it

15:06:23 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:06:23 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:06:36 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 June telecon:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 June telecon:

15:06:36 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08

15:06:38 <Scott_Bauer> Topic:  June 8 telcon minutes

1. June 8 telcon minutes

15:06:42 <MacTed> pfps - where are you calling from?  might +1.303.474.aadd be you?

Ted Thibodeau: pfps - where are you calling from? might +1.303.474.aadd be you?

15:06:59 <Scott_Bauer> david:  Made changes but they were not promulgated

David Wood: Made changes but they were not promulgated

15:07:26 <Scott_Bauer> ... edited to capture resolution on issue-60

... edited to capture resolution on ISSUE-60

15:07:55 <Scott_Bauer> ... closed issue-60 in the tracker, but it doesn't show in the minutes

... closed ISSUE-60 in the tracker, but it doesn't show in the minutes

15:08:21 <pfps> zakim, aadd is me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, aadd is me

15:08:21 <Zakim> +pfps; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps; got it

15:08:25 <Scott_Bauer> ... will check with Sandro

... will check with Sandro

15:08:26 <gavin> Fixed

Gavin Carothers: Fixed

15:08:28 <pfps> q-

Peter Patel-Schneider: q-

15:08:38 <gavin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08 is now correct

Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08 is now correct

15:08:39 <MacTed> ack aadd

Ted Thibodeau: ack aadd

15:08:44 <MacTed> ack +1.303.474.aadd

Ted Thibodeau: ack +1.303.474.aadd

15:08:52 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:08:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, pfps (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, mischat, FabGandon,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavin, davidwood, AZ, Scott_Bauer, Ivan, mbrunati, LeeF, cmatheus, [Sophia], AlexHall, pfps (muted), AndyS, MacTed (muted), Souri, yvesr, mischat, FabGandon,

15:08:56 <Zakim> ... +1.408.642.aaee, +1.415.586.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.408.642.aaee, +1.415.586.aaff

15:09:15 <Scott_Bauer> Gavin: its all fixed

Gavin Carothers: its all fixed

15:09:38 <Zakim> +mhausenblas

Zakim IRC Bot: +mhausenblas

15:09:50 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me

15:09:50 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

15:10:06 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: problems with issue-58

Andy Seaborne: problems with ISSUE-58

15:10:20 <Scott_Bauer> David: closed presumed to be archaic

David Wood: closed presumed to be archaic

15:10:37 <AlexHall> I see the resolution in the minutes

Alex Hall: I see the resolution in the minutes

15:11:04 <gavin> I'll fix it ;)(

Gavin Carothers: I'll fix it ;)(

15:11:20 <LeeF> thanks, gavin

Lee Feigenbaum: thanks, gavin

15:12:03 <Scott_Bauer> David: I will fix it

David Wood: I will fix it

15:12:57 <pfps> Zakim, mute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: Zakim, mute me

15:12:58 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps was already muted, pfps

15:13:26 <AndyS> Absent any info, presume as per proposal (close, do nothing), but it does not actually say that in the issue tracker.

Andy Seaborne: Absent any info, presume as per proposal (close, do nothing), but it does not actually say that in the issue tracker.

15:13:53 <Scott_Bauer> David: The wiki is now correct

David Wood: The wiki is now correct

15:14:33 <Scott_Bauer> ... The minutes from June 8 are accepted

... The minutes from June 8 are accepted

15:14:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... Richard has claimed victory on action-59

... Richard has claimed victory on ACTION-59

15:15:12 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Documents

Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Documents

15:15:32 <Scott_Bauer> ... Peter had action-69

... Peter had ACTION-69

15:15:35 <pfps> yes, my action is done!

Peter Patel-Schneider: yes, my action is done!

15:16:19 <Scott_Bauer> ... passing by Dan, Sandro

... passing by Dan, Sandro

15:16:49 <davidwood> Scribes page proposes the summer telecon schedule: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes

David Wood: Scribes page proposes the summer telecon schedule: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes

15:17:22 <pfps> fine by m

Peter Patel-Schneider: fine by me

15:17:25 <pfps> s/m/me/
15:17:31 <Scott_Bauer> ... Any objections to the summer telecon schedule as shown

... Any objections to the summer telecon schedule as shown

15:17:52 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:18:02 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (13%), yvesr (82%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (13%), yvesr (82%)

15:18:07 <MacTed> Zakim, mute yvesr

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute yvesr

15:18:07 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr should now be muted

15:18:11 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, mute me

15:18:11 <Zakim> yvesr was already muted, yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr was already muted, yvesr

15:18:43 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to accept the summer telecon schedule.

RESOLVED: to accept the summer telecon schedule.

15:18:44 <Scott_Bauer> ... resolved to accept the schedule as written

... resolved to accept the schedule as written

15:19:23 <Scott_Bauer> ... Action 56 from Antoine.  Guus also not here.

... ACTION-56 from Antoine. Guus also not here.

15:19:47 <AZ> Scott, it's not for Antoine, it's Pierre-Antoine's action

Antoine Zimmermann: Scott, it's not for Antoine, it's Pierre-Antoine's action

15:19:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... Closing the action item for Guus

... Closing the action item for Guus

15:20:35 <Scott_Bauer> ... Pierre-Antoine for action 56 (correction to the above)

... Pierre-Antoine for ACTION-56 (correction to the above)

15:20:36 <AndyS> ping ericP (Q from chair)

Andy Seaborne: ping ericP (Q from chair)

15:20:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... leaving turtle document action open.

... leaving turtle document action open.

15:20:58 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile

15:20:58 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made

15:21:00 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:21:03 <davidwood> SPARQL/RDF WG Meeting regarding graph terminology:

David Wood: SPARQL/RDF WG Meeting regarding graph terminology:

15:21:03 <davidwood> 	Poll at http://www.doodle.com/iny935vc6n67vxpv

David Wood: Poll at http://www.doodle.com/iny935vc6n67vxpv

15:21:33 <Scott_Bauer> ... action item to schedule graph terminology discussion a poll is posted.

... action item to schedule graph terminology discussion a poll is posted.

15:21:46 <davidwood> Revisit RDF Postponed Issues

David Wood: Revisit RDF Postponed Issues

15:21:46 <Scott_Bauer> ... brings us back to postponed issues

... brings us back to postponed issues

15:21:55 <Scott_Bauer> Topic: Postponed issues

2. Postponed issues

15:22:04 <AZ> +1 to close it

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 to close it

15:22:04 <AndyS> Currently, 22/June and 6/July most "yes"s  -- 15:00 (UTC+01)

Andy Seaborne: Currently, 22/June and 6/July most "yes"s -- 15:00 (UTC+01)

15:22:20 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59

15:22:20 <davidwood> 	See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0063.html where Peter proposes to close as "opened in error".

David Wood: See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0063.html where Peter proposes to close as "opened in error".

15:22:30 <pfps> +1 to close 59

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to close 59

15:22:38 <Scott_Bauer> david:  issue 59 opened in error and proposal is to closse as suggested by Peter

David Wood: ISSUE-59 opened in error and proposal is to closse as suggested by Peter

15:22:39 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:22:42 <davidwood> +1 to close

David Wood: +1 to close

15:22:44 <cygri> +1 to close ISSUE-59

Richard Cyganiak: +1 to close ISSUE-59

15:22:46 <zwu2> +1 close

Zhe Wu: +1 close

15:22:50 <mbrunati> +1 to close

Matteo Brunati: +1 to close

15:22:55 <cmatheus> +1 close

Christopher Matheus: +1 close

15:22:58 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

15:23:01 <pfps> OK

Peter Patel-Schneider: OK

15:23:52 <Scott_Bauer> RESOLVED: Issue-59 was CLOSED because it was opened in error by the last RDF WG.  See: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59

RESOLVED: ISSUE-59 was CLOSED because it was opened in error by the last RDF WG. See: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59

15:23:52 <Scott_Bauer> ... issue-62 in relation to the turtle doc Guus to discuss with Eric.

... ISSUE-62 in relation to the turtle doc Guus to discuss with Eric.

15:23:57 <gavin> I did talk to eric last week!

Gavin Carothers: I did talk to eric last week!

15:24:01 <davidwood>  ISSUE-62: Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error"

David Wood: ISSUE-62: Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error"

15:24:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-62 Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error" notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-62 Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error" notes added

15:24:43 <Scott_Bauer> ... Richard proposed continuing issue-62 proposed to be moved from raised to open

... Richard proposed continuing ISSUE-62 proposed to be moved from raised to open

15:24:45 <davidwood> Propose to OPEN ISSUE-62 for later discussions

David Wood: Propose to OPEN ISSUE-62 for later discussions

15:25:02 <cygri> (I think it was danbri who proposed to continue this .... but i agree)

Richard Cyganiak: (I think it was danbri who proposed to continue this .... but i agree)

15:25:36 <Scott_Bauer> ... any objections to opening 62, hearing none it is open

... any objections to opening 62, hearing none it is open

15:25:36 <Scott_Bauer> RESOLVED: Issue-62 was OPENED because we need to consider it properly.  See: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/62

RESOLVED: ISSUE-62 was OPENED because we need to consider it properly. See: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/62

15:25:48 <Scott_Bauer> ... Moves us to issue-12

... Moves us to ISSUE-12

15:25:51 <davidwood>  ISSUE-12: Reconcile various forms of string literals

David Wood: ISSUE-12: Reconcile various forms of string literals

15:25:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-12 Reconcile various forms of string literals (time permitting) notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-12 Reconcile various forms of string literals (time permitting) notes added

15:26:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... Guus thought we were close to consensus.

... Guus thought we were close to consensus.

15:26:10 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/12

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/12

15:26:11 <davidwood> Are we reaching consensus: see thread starting with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0010.html

David Wood: Are we reaching consensus: see thread starting with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0010.html

15:26:11 <davidwood> No :) See William's proposal and resulting thread at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0069.html

David Wood: No :) See William's proposal and resulting thread at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0069.html

15:26:23 <Scott_Bauer> ... William made a proposal and I think we are not close.

... William made a proposal and I think we are not close.

15:26:23 <AndyS> ww sent regrets

Andy Seaborne: ww sent regrets

15:26:39 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:26:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+

Jeremy Carroll: q+

15:26:47 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

15:26:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... looking back on thread a contrary test case was stated.

... looking back on thread a contrary test case was stated.

15:27:07 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll

David Wood: ack JeremyCarroll

15:28:14 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: May need to take this off line.  The first working group put the lang treatments in late in the day.

Jeremy Carroll: May need to take this off line. The first working group put the lang treatments in late in the day.

15:28:29 <Scott_Bauer> ... late change to the desing of model and syntax.

... late change to the design of model and syntax.

15:28:53 <Souri> s/desing/design/
15:28:57 <Scott_Bauer> ... 2004 working group felt they weren't able to change the design and the intent of the rdf-wg wasn't clear.

... 2004 working group felt they weren't able to change the design and the intent of the rdf-wg wasn't clear.

15:29:24 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

15:29:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... the question is should we fix the design or live with it.

... the question is should we fix the design or live with it.

15:30:31 <Scott_Bauer> David:  Owl wg expressed a concern in changing datatypes

David Wood: Owl wg expressed a concern in changing datatypes

15:31:01 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy:  Advantages of the current design is that it works well with DL

Jeremy Carroll: Advantages of the current design is that it works well with DL

15:31:21 <AndyS> Was there a specific example of what possible change messes OWL up?

Andy Seaborne: Was there a specific example of what possible change messes OWL up?

15:31:38 <Scott_Bauer> ... current design more targeted at more niave user

... current design more targeted at more niave user

15:32:24 <Scott_Bauer> David:  We already have plain strings.  Don't really buy the arguments we are breaking rdf

David Wood: We already have plain strings. Don't really buy the arguments we are breaking rdf

15:32:53 <davidwood> AndyS, IanH expressed concern over any change to datatypes because that would require changes in OWL.

David Wood: AndyS, IanH expressed concern over any change to datatypes because that would require changes in OWL.

15:33:49 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:  Language tags as datatypes have significant opposition.

Richard Cyganiak: Language tags as datatypes have significant opposition.

15:34:53 <Scott_Bauer> ... other proposal with not too much opposition to abandon the untagged strings and leave the tag literals as they are now.

... other proposal with not too much opposition to abandon the untagged strings and leave the tag literals as they are now.

15:35:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... leaving plain literals as syntatic sugar

... leaving plain literals as syntatic sugar

15:35:39 <Scott_Bauer> ... what problems would we still work out.  What does this mean for OWL.  Peter raised some concerns

... what problems would we still work out. What does this mean for OWL. Peter raised some concerns

15:35:58 <Scott_Bauer> ... some questions about how to deal with this in the syntaxs

... some questions about how to deal with this in the syntaxs

15:36:09 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to address OWL concerns

Jeremy Carroll: q+ to address OWL concerns

15:36:36 <Scott_Bauer> ... curious to hear if this would raise concerns in OWL and Sparql

... curious to hear if this would raise concerns in OWL and Sparql

15:36:58 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll

David Wood: ack JeremyCarroll

15:36:58 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to address OWL concerns

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to address OWL concerns

15:37:56 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: one of the constraints changes may break OWL.  They mean by OWL is OWL DL.  Mapping from triples into some other language.

Jeremy Carroll: one of the constraints changes may break OWL. They mean by OWL is OWL DL. Mapping from triples into some other language.

15:38:04 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

15:38:07 <pfps> zakim, unmute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, unmute me

15:38:07 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should no longer be muted

15:38:29 <davidwood> ack pfps

David Wood: ack pfps

15:38:30 <AndyS> SPARQL -- it's only result of DATATYPE("foo"@en) --> in detail, if class, not datatype, still err but unexpected?  SPARQL could just fib a bit and return rdf:LTS.

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL -- it's only result of DATATYPE("foo"@en) --> in detail, if class, not datatype, still err but unexpected? SPARQL could just fib a bit and return rdf:LTS.

15:38:32 <Scott_Bauer> ... cause a greater divergence between OWL and RDF.

... cause a greater divergence between OWL and RDF.

15:39:24 <Scott_Bauer> Peter: Any change to RDF (substantive) would be changes to OWL RL systems

Peter Patel-Schneider: Any change to RDF (substantive) would be changes to OWL RL systems

15:40:08 <Scott_Bauer> Alex: Some details might change in mapping layer, but mapping is transparent for us from rules to sparql queries.

Alex Hall: Some details might change in mapping layer, but mapping is transparent for us from rules to sparql queries.

15:40:23 <pfps> zakim, mute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, mute me

15:40:23 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should now be muted

15:40:34 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:40:45 <Scott_Bauer> David: Lacking some of the people who could support Richard's proposal are not here.

David Wood: Lacking some of the people who could support Richard's proposal are not here.

15:41:04 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

15:41:06 <zwu2> I have to leave early to attend a customer meeting

Zhe Wu: I have to leave early to attend a customer meeting

15:41:08 <Scott_Bauer> ... Ian is invited to express OWL concerns in the future

... Ian is invited to express OWL concerns in the future

15:41:12 <zwu2> bye

Zhe Wu: bye

15:41:20 <Zakim> - +1.408.642.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.408.642.aaee

15:41:48 <Zakim> +??P19

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19

15:41:54 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P23 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P23 is me

15:41:54 <Zakim> sorry, yvesr, I do not recognize a party named '??P23'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, yvesr, I do not recognize a party named '??P23'

15:42:00 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:  How does this related to sparql.  Two places where its affected.  Returning a lang type string currently causes an error.

Richard Cyganiak: How does this related to sparql. Two places where its affected. Returning a lang type string currently causes an error.

15:42:13 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P33 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P33 is me

15:42:13 <Zakim> I already had ??P33 as mischat, yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P33 as mischat, yvesr

15:42:14 <pfps> of course, it is not just OWL RL systems that have to change, but also OWL DL systems - my view is that most OWL DL implementers would not care too much, as long as the changes can be fit into OWL DL, changes to the OWL documents might be more problematic

Peter Patel-Schneider: of course, it is not just OWL RL systems that have to change, but also OWL DL systems - my view is that most OWL DL implementers would not care too much, as long as the changes can be fit into OWL DL, changes to the OWL documents might be more problematic

15:42:18 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

15:43:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... serializtion of sparql results xsd: string and plain literal are the same in the design with of those is supposed to be produced.   How should code be written.

... serializtion of sparql results xsd: string and plain literal are the same in the design with of those is supposed to be produced. How should code be written.

15:43:40 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

15:44:04 <davidwood> pfps, Alex (Revelytix) is an OWL RL implementor.

David Wood: pfps, Alex (Revelytix) is an OWL RL implementor.

15:44:11 <Scott_Bauer> Andy:  to the second point.  Policy should be consistant between rdf and sparql results.

Andy Seaborne: to the second point. Policy should be consistant between rdf and sparql results.

15:45:44 <Scott_Bauer> Lee:  One place to serialized it and do so in a simple form.  If rdf-wg goes in this direction charter implications may be affected.

Lee Feigenbaum: One place to serialized it and do so in a simple form. If rdf-wg goes in this direction charter implications may be affected.

15:45:54 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: no charter implications

Ivan Herman: no charter implications

15:46:12 <AlexHall> We are a RIF implementor. Presumably changes to OWL RL would be reflected as changes to the rules as expressed in the profiles doc. We can handle those changes quite easily.

Alex Hall: We are a RIF implementor. Presumably changes to OWL RL would be reflected as changes to the rules as expressed in the profiles doc. We can handle those changes quite easily.

15:46:21 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:  The one without the datatype markings should imply the other form is still valid.

Richard Cyganiak: The one without the datatype markings should imply the other form is still valid.

15:46:28 <LeeF> ivan, thanks, did not realize that XML results document was already in our charter, so that's something, at least

Lee Feigenbaum: ivan, thanks, did not realize that XML results document was already in our charter, so that's something, at least

15:46:31 <davidwood> AlexHall, Thanks

David Wood: AlexHall, Thanks

15:46:51 <Scott_Bauer> ... the consumer has to be prepared to deal with eithe form.

... the consumer has to be prepared to deal with eithe form.

15:47:36 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:47:38 <Scott_Bauer> David: Not sure where to take this discussion.

David Wood: Not sure where to take this discussion.

15:48:14 <Scott_Bauer> Andy:  have one proposal to point to.  Need a straw man proposal.

Andy Seaborne: have one proposal to point to. Need a straw man proposal.

15:48:23 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD

Jeremy Carroll: q+ to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD

15:48:48 <Scott_Bauer> David:  Asks Richard to prepare the proposal

David Wood: Asks Richard to prepare the proposal

15:48:50 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll

David Wood: ack JeremyCarroll

15:48:50 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention real disagreement and/or semantics of SHOULD

15:48:56 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:  I can do that

Richard Cyganiak: I can do that

15:49:16 <davidwood> Thanks to Richard

David Wood: Thanks to Richard

15:49:27 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list

ACTION: cygri to create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list

15:49:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-06-22].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-62 - Create up-to-date wiki page on ISSUE-12 proposal incl. arguments from the mailing list [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-06-22].

15:49:28 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:49:32 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy: For some reason literal design remains a very contentious issue

Jeremy Carroll: For some reason literal design remains a very contentious issue

15:50:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... It takes up a lot of time for the working group

... It takes up a lot of time for the working group

15:50:40 <Scott_Bauer> ... we will not make everyone happy

... we will not make everyone happy

15:50:57 <Scott_Bauer> David: There are too many ways to express literals

David Wood: There are too many ways to express literals

15:51:53 <pfps> zakim, unmute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, unmute me

15:51:53 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should no longer be muted

15:52:06 <ericP> i read that as a proposal to discuss the type faces used to represent the number 1 in RDF serializations

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i read that as a proposal to discuss the type faces used to represent the number 1 in RDF serializations

15:52:49 <Scott_Bauer> Peter:  OWL and RIF spent a lot of time hashing over the addition to literals.  If a larger change is made it's a big change to solve a tiny thing.

Peter Patel-Schneider: OWL and RIF spent a lot of time hashing over the addition to literals. If a larger change is made it's a big change to solve a tiny thing.

15:52:53 <ericP> (ref to jjc's concearn that literals are too difficult 'cause they matter to too many folks)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (ref to jjc's concearn that literals are too difficult 'cause they matter to too many folks)

15:53:11 <Scott_Bauer> ... strings with lang tags are not very comprehensive.

... strings with lang tags are not very comprehensive.

15:53:39 <Souri> I'll be happy if the only change we make is say that "abc" = "abc"^^xsd:string (and SPARQL query result could contain a string literal in either form and still be conformant)

Souripriya Das: I'll be happy if the only change we make is say that "abc" = "abc"^^xsd:string (and SPARQL query result could contain a string literal in either form and still be conformant)

15:53:40 <gavin> XML literals for language, oh god... No, no it isn't.

Gavin Carothers: XML literals for language, oh god... No, no it isn't.

15:54:04 <Scott_Bauer> ... deprecation of lang type literals would make me happy

... deprecation of lang type literals would make me happy

15:54:14 <LeeF> I'd be happy if Souri's happy

Lee Feigenbaum: I'd be happy if Souri's happy

15:54:29 <Scott_Bauer> David: Key argument is we have lang type literals and rdf literals

David Wood: Key argument is we have lang type literals and rdf literals

15:55:02 <davidwood> The key argument is that we have plain literals, rdf:plainLiteral, and xsd:string literals.

David Wood: The key argument is that we have plain literals, rdf:plainLiteral, and xsd:string literals.

15:55:05 <Scott_Bauer> Peter:  Any OWL tool will handle any one of these and do the right thing

Peter Patel-Schneider: Any OWL tool will handle any one of these and do the right thing

15:55:31 <gavin> I don't think anyone was

Gavin Carothers: I don't think anyone was

15:55:46 <Scott_Bauer> David: Who's objecting to collapsing the definitions

David Wood: Who's objecting to collapsing the definitions

15:55:59 <LeeF> +10000 to leaving language tags aside :-)

Lee Feigenbaum: +10000 to leaving language tags aside :-)

15:56:08 <Scott_Bauer> Gavin:  How to do it is the contentious issue

Gavin Carothers: How to do it is the contentious issue

15:56:27 <Scott_Bauer> David:  Would someone be willing to write up the propsal

David Wood: Would someone be willing to write up the propsal

15:56:31 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:

Richard Cyganiak:

15:56:41 <Scott_Bauer> ... We have that already

... We have that already

15:57:04 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain

Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain

15:58:25 <Scott_Bauer> David:  Issue of contention was around sparql.

David Wood: Issue of contention was around sparql.

15:58:39 <AndyS> err - datatype("foo") is already xsd:string

Andy Seaborne: err - datatype("foo") is already xsd:string

15:59:07 <cygri> AndyS, but currently it needs an exception in the spec to make it so. that exception could go away

Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, but currently it needs an exception in the spec to make it so. that exception could go away

15:59:09 <yvesr> AndyS, so it's fine?

Yves Raimond: AndyS, so it's fine?

15:59:48 <AlexHall> I thought the SPARQL issue was around results serialization, not datatype("foo")

Alex Hall: I thought the SPARQL issue was around results serialization, not datatype("foo")

15:59:49 <AndyS> Yes - it's fine.  The output issue is same-as RDF and not covered.

Andy Seaborne: Yes - it's fine. The output issue is same-as RDF and not covered.

15:59:55 <Scott_Bauer> David:  Requestinng that Lee have a look at the page and provide comments re: sparql

David Wood: Requestinng that Lee have a look at the page and provide comments re: sparql

16:00:14 <AndyS> AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs

Andy Seaborne: AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs

16:00:22 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:00:27 <AndyS> AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs covered in this discussion

Andy Seaborne: AlexHall, yes - we are only talking simple literals - no langs covered in this discussion

16:00:29 <Souri> I am worried about "One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1"

Souripriya Das: I am worried about "One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1"

16:00:41 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give unrequested advice to chairs

Jeremy Carroll: q+ to give unrequested advice to chairs

16:00:45 <pchampin> what would be called a "plain literal" then, anyway?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: what would be called a "plain literal" then, anyway?

16:01:04 <davidwood> ack ivan

David Wood: ack ivan

16:01:05 <Scott_Bauer> Lee:  Spec has the data issue as an exception.  Main concern term that sparql uses for simple literals no longer exist it has a more far reaching effect.  Will take a look at it and take it to the sparql working group.

Lee Feigenbaum: Spec has the data issue as an exception. Main concern term that sparql uses for simple literals no longer exist it has a more far reaching effect. Will take a look at it and take it to the sparql working group.

16:01:05 <AndyS> Souri, +1 -- and the answer should be use "foo" form.

Andy Seaborne: Souri, +1 -- and the answer should be use "foo" form.

16:01:12 <ericP> i think that removing "plain literal" mostly involves removing rows from the operator mapping and conditions for the function definitions

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think that removing "plain literal" mostly involves removing rows from the operator mapping and conditions for the function definitions

16:01:18 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule

ACTION: Lee to take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule

16:01:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule  [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-06-22].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-63 - Take http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain to SPARQL WG to gauge the impact on SPARQL process and schedule [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-06-22].

16:01:28 <ericP> (having drafted most of the plain literal text)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (having drafted most of the plain literal text)

16:01:48 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan: procedural issue.  The problem of strings was in the charter as a time permits issue.

Ivan Herman: procedural issue. The problem of strings was in the charter as a time permits issue.

16:02:00 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:02:12 <pfps> zakim, mute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, mute me

16:02:15 <Scott_Bauer> ... it would be ok if the working group decided to postpone the issue

... it would be ok if the working group decided to postpone the issue

16:02:18 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should now be muted

16:02:27 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll

David Wood: ack JeremyCarroll

16:02:27 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give unrequested advice to chairs

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give unrequested advice to chairs

16:03:12 <Scott_Bauer> Jeremy:  If the discussion goes on and on, a proposal vote should be taken

Jeremy Carroll: If the discussion goes on and on, a proposal vote should be taken

16:03:28 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:04:09 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:04:31 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:  Yes it's a time permitting issue.  We understand what's not possible.   I would rather see the straw poll first.

Richard Cyganiak: Yes it's a time permitting issue. We understand what's not possible. I would rather see the straw poll first.

16:04:45 <AndyS> SPARQL issue -- simple literal used as return type and arg in various functions  - obvious changes though : would fix at least one current bug :-)

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL issue -- simple literal used as return type and arg in various functions - obvious changes though : would fix at least one current bug :-)

16:04:57 <davidwood> ack ivan

David Wood: ack ivan

16:05:05 <Scott_Bauer> ... I think we are close to finding something

... I think we are close to finding something

16:05:46 <Scott_Bauer> Ivan:  Issue has taken up a lot of energy.  Named Graphs is something we must do.

Ivan Herman: Issue has taken up a lot of energy. Named Graphs is something we must do.

16:06:06 <Scott_Bauer> ... We should not just close it but set a deadline

... We should not just close it but set a deadline

16:06:23 <davidwood> Straw poll: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain

David Wood: Straw poll: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain

16:06:30 <Scott_Bauer> David: I want a straw poll right now.

David Wood: I want a straw poll right now.

16:07:58 <Scott_Bauer> Richard: Just to point out datatype is already xsd:string.  If you ask for a datatype it returns string

Richard Cyganiak: Just to point out datatype is already xsd:string. If you ask for a datatype it returns string

16:08:21 <pchampin> q+ to ask about the term "plain literal"

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to ask about the term "plain literal"

16:08:36 <pchampin> ack me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ack me

16:08:52 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask about the term "plain literal"

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to ask about the term "plain literal"

16:08:59 <pfps> ls

Peter Patel-Schneider: ls

16:09:10 <Souri> q+ to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."

Souripriya Das: q+ to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."

16:09:29 <pfps> zakim, mute me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, mute me

16:09:35 <davidwood> ack Souri

David Wood: ack Souri

16:09:38 <pchampin> ok

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ok

16:09:41 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps was already muted, pfps

16:09:47 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be

Zakim IRC Bot: Souri, you wanted to ask about the fourth item in the Issues: "SPARQL Results XML/JSON are hampered by the variability introduced by syntactic sugar. One of the two forms should be

16:09:52 <Zakim> ... forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."

Zakim IRC Bot: ... forbidden when answering queries over RDF 1.1."

16:10:27 <Scott_Bauer> Souri: variability.  Would we require sparql one of the two possible?  If we are required to return xsd:string

Souripriya Das: variability. Would we require sparql one of the two possible? If we are required to return xsd:string

16:10:37 <Scott_Bauer> ... That is a problem

... That is a problem

16:10:43 <LeeF> I imagine it's up to the SPARQL WG how to handle that in the XML format?

Lee Feigenbaum: I imagine it's up to the SPARQL WG how to handle that in the XML format?

16:10:55 <gavin> +1 LeeF, someone elses issue

Gavin Carothers: +1 LeeF, someone elses issue

16:11:04 <Scott_Bauer> David:  if you return quote: foo as a literal you should know that is an xsd:string

David Wood: if you return quote: foo as a literal you should know that is an xsd:string

16:11:13 <Scott_Bauer> Souri:  thats fine

Souripriya Das: thats fine

16:11:21 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:11:49 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:12:04 <Scott_Bauer> Pierre:  A suggestion.  Maybe we can keep the plain literal which are semantically an xsd:string

Pierre-Antoine Champin: A suggestion. Maybe we can keep the plain literal which are semantically an xsd:string

16:12:27 <LeeF> Pierre++

Lee Feigenbaum: Pierre++

16:12:35 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:12:39 <Scott_Bauer> David:  that makes a lot of sense to me

David Wood: that makes a lot of sense to me

16:12:50 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:  I agree with this absolutely

Richard Cyganiak: I agree with this absolutely

16:13:17 <LeeF> If RDF can do this by adjusting definitions of the existing terms that SPARQL Query leans on, that would be _great_

Lee Feigenbaum: If RDF can do this by adjusting definitions of the existing terms that SPARQL Query leans on, that would be _great_

16:13:37 <Scott_Bauer> David: lets take a quick straw poll

David Wood: lets take a quick straw poll

16:13:46 <pfps> like

Peter Patel-Schneider: like

16:13:48 <AndyS> +1 and preferred output form (SHOULD -- MUST is hard due to compatibility) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results (proposal needs updating to cover this case - not leave open)

Andy Seaborne: +1 and preferred output form (SHOULD -- MUST is hard due to compatibility) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results (proposal needs updating to cover this case - not leave open)

16:13:52 <davidwood> +1 to our current understanding of the proposal

David Wood: +1 to our current understanding of the proposal

16:14:00 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

16:14:02 <AlexHall> +1

Alex Hall: +1

16:14:03 <davidwood> +1 to AndyS

David Wood: +1 to AndyS

16:14:07 <LeeF> +1 with Cambridge Semantics hat on, reserving judgment with SPARQL WG chair hat on

Lee Feigenbaum: +1 with Cambridge Semantics hat on, reserving judgment with SPARQL WG chair hat on

16:14:11 <Souri> +1 to AndyS

Souripriya Das: +1 to AndyS

16:14:13 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:14:13 <mbrunati> +1

Matteo Brunati: +1

16:14:18 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

16:14:19 <cmatheus> +1

Christopher Matheus: +1

16:14:20 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:14:23 <gavin> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

16:14:28 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:14:45 <JeremyCarroll> +1

Jeremy Carroll: +1

16:14:45 <ivan> 1

Ivan Herman: 1

16:15:15 <gavin> Who cares about language tags? ;)

Gavin Carothers: Who cares about language tags? ;)

16:15:17 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

16:15:32 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to give more unsolicited advice

Jeremy Carroll: q+ to give more unsolicited advice

16:15:47 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll

David Wood: ack JeremyCarroll

16:15:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give more unsolicited advice

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to give more unsolicited advice

16:15:55 <Scott_Bauer> David:  We seem to agree on three quarter of this proposal

David Wood: We seem to agree on three quarter of this proposal

16:16:05 <Zakim> -FabGandon

Zakim IRC Bot: -FabGandon

16:16:16 <Scott_Bauer> David: Let's take a formal vote since there are no objectsions

David Wood: Let's take a formal vote since there are no objections

16:16:37 <Souri> s/objectsions/objections/
16:16:53 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSAL: Accept the proposal at  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain

PROPOSED: Accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain

16:17:11 <LeeF> Pat has spent a lot of time restating cygri's proposals, so I imagine he'd be happy with this

Lee Feigenbaum: Pat has spent a lot of time restating cygri's proposals, so I imagine he'd be happy with this

16:17:12 <JeremyCarroll> if pat wishes to object he can in the e-mail

Jeremy Carroll: if pat wishes to object he can in the e-mail

16:17:23 <JeremyCarroll> and then we deal with that next week

Jeremy Carroll: and then we deal with that next week

16:17:31 <JeremyCarroll> same for any wg member

Jeremy Carroll: same for any wg member

16:17:41 <davidwood> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results

David Wood: Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF and in SPARQL results

16:18:00 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

16:18:00 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

16:18:03 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:18:06 <AlexHall> +1

Alex Hall: +1

16:18:17 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

16:18:31 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

16:18:41 <Scott_Bauer> PROPOSED: Accept the proposal at  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain

PROPOSED: Accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain

16:19:07 <pfps> Where does the proposal talk about SPARQL?  All the SPARQL stuff is in the issues, right?

Peter Patel-Schneider: Where does the proposal talk about SPARQL? All the SPARQL stuff is in the issues, right?

16:19:22 <cygri> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same

Richard Cyganiak: Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same

16:19:29 <gavin> and recomend that any concrete syntax SHOULD use "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string

Gavin Carothers: and recomend that any concrete syntax SHOULD use "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string

16:19:34 <LeeF> pfps, just in the proposal that davidwood just wrote on IRC

Lee Feigenbaum: pfps, just in the proposal that davidwood just wrote on IRC

16:19:41 <AndyS> pfps - david's proposal says "SPARQL results"

Andy Seaborne: pfps - david's proposal says "SPARQL results"

16:19:51 <pfps> Of course, any change to RDF may impact SPARQL, and this does, but that is the main reason why we are doing this now, as opposed to later.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Of course, any change to RDF may impact SPARQL, and this does, but that is the main reason why we are doing this now, as opposed to later.

16:20:04 <davidwood> Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same

David Wood: Propose to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same

16:20:06 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

16:20:09 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

16:20:10 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:20:10 <cmatheus> +1

Christopher Matheus: +1

16:20:11 <mbrunati> +1

Matteo Brunati: +1

16:20:14 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

16:20:21 <JeremyCarroll> +1

Jeremy Carroll: +1

16:20:22 <pfps> ooh, right - I was looking at the wiki page

Peter Patel-Schneider: ooh, right - I was looking at the wiki page

16:20:23 <AlexHall> +1

Alex Hall: +1

16:20:23 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

16:20:26 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

16:20:27 <gavin> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

16:20:28 <AndyS> (give or take the unicode char 001C)

Andy Seaborne: (give or take the unicode char 001C)

16:20:29 <Scott_Bauer> David: Let's vote again on Richard's phrasing

David Wood: Let's vote again on Richard's phrasing

16:20:35 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:20:41 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same

RESOLVED: to accept the proposal at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/StringLiterals/AbolishUntaggedPlain with the modification that preferred output form (SHOULD) is "foo" not "foo"^^xsd:string in RDF; recommends that SPARQL and other WGs does the same

16:20:47 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

16:21:47 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

16:22:00 <Zakim> -mischat

Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat

16:22:01 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:22:12 <pfps> OWL already strongly suggests using "foo" in concrete syntaxes

Peter Patel-Schneider: OWL already strongly suggests using "foo" in concrete syntaxes

16:22:36 <Scott_Bauer> David: Lee will get back to me in relation to sparql

David Wood: Lee will get back to me in relation to sparql

16:22:48 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

16:23:00 <AndyS> ack me

Andy Seaborne: ack me

16:23:02 <Scott_Bauer> Andy: Compatability does matter

Andy Seaborne: Compatability does matter

16:23:36 <Scott_Bauer> Richard:  How do we make sure popular implementers are informed as soon as possible.

Ivan Herman: How do we make sure popular implementers are informed as soon as possible.

16:23:40 <gavin> rdflib already does this... sort of... via buggy string implementations ;)

Gavin Carothers: rdflib already does this... sort of... via buggy string implementations ;)

16:23:44 <cygri> s/Richard/ivan/
16:23:48 <Scott_Bauer> David: I suggest a blog post.

David Wood: I suggest a blog post.

16:24:47 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, who is speaking

zakim, who is speaking

16:24:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is speaking', Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is speaking', Scott_Bauer

16:24:58 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, who is talking

zakim, who is talking

16:24:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is talking', Scott_Bauer

16:25:23 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: -JeremyCarroll

16:25:27 <Scott_Bauer> David: Officially adjourned

David Wood: Officially adjourned

16:25:31 <mbrunati> bye

Matteo Brunati: bye

16:25:31 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:25:32 <AZ> bye

Antoine Zimmermann: bye

16:25:33 <Zakim> -cmatheus

Zakim IRC Bot: -cmatheus

16:25:33 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

16:25:34 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

16:25:34 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

16:25:35 <Zakim> -mbrunati

Zakim IRC Bot: -mbrunati

16:25:35 <Zakim> -[Sophia]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[Sophia]

16:25:37 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

16:25:38 <Zakim> -pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin

16:25:40 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

16:25:42 <Zakim> -gavin

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavin

16:25:44 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

16:25:56 <Zakim> -pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps

16:26:06 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

16:31:38 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer



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