edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 13 December 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.13
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, Hook Hua, Ivan Herman, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Tom De Nies, Trung Huynh
Regrets
Graham Klyne, Luc Moreau
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Paolo Missier
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Minutes of Dec. 06, 2012 Telcon link
Topics
  1. Admin

    Minutes were approved. Several action items were closed.

  2. Congrats CR

    The release of the candidate recs and other notes was discussed. Group members were encouraged to advertise the release. Jun, Ivan, Paolo and Hook agreed to send the announcement to various mailing lists. Editor's were reminded to make sure the various editor's drafts were marked as such.

  3. WG Implementations

    Group members were asked to fill out the implementation survey by the first week of January. This will allow us to check progress to meeting the exit criteria.

  4. PROV-AQ Reminder

    Paul walked through four major changes to the PROV-AQ document. Group members were asked to respond via the mailing list. The goal is to release a draft for review by the group the second week of Jan.

  5. PROV-Dictionary

  6. Prov-xml

    Stephan gave an update. We discussed the problem of upper case and lower case names causing some confusion about the relationship between PROV-XML and RDF/XML. One idea was to ensure that the document level elements were shown within examples.

  7. Namespace

    Brief updates on creating consolidated documents (XML, RDF, HTML) for hosting at the prov namespace.

15:15:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/13-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/13-prov-irc

15:15:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:15:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be PROV

15:15:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 45 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 45 minutes

15:15:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:15:23 <trackbot> Date: 13 December 2012
15:26:10 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: PROV WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.13

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

Ted Thibodeau: MacTed has changed the topic to: PROV WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.13

15:55:10 <pgroth> trackbot, start telcon

(No events recorded for 29 minutes)

Paul Groth: trackbot, start telcon

15:55:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:55:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be PROV

15:55:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

15:55:15 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:55:15 <trackbot> Date: 13 December 2012
15:55:17 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

15:55:17 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

15:55:26 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.13
15:55:35 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
15:55:40 <pgroth> Scribe: Paolo Missier

(Scribe set to Paolo Missier)

15:55:48 <pgroth> Regrets: Graham Klyne, Luc Moreau
15:57:07 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

15:57:35 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

15:57:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:57:54 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

15:57:54 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

15:58:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:59:01 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:59:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:59:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:59:10 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:59:10 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:59:17 <Paolo> zakim, [IPcaller] is me

zakim, [IPcaller] is me

15:59:17 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

15:59:39 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

16:00:36 <Zakim> + +44.131.467.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.131.467.aaaa

16:00:36 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

16:00:43 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P8 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P8 is me

16:00:43 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

16:01:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:01:36 <ivan> zakim, code?

Ivan Herman: zakim, code?

16:01:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan

16:01:44 <jun> zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Jun Zhao: zakim, [IPcaller] is me

16:01:44 <Zakim> +jun; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it

16:02:11 <Zakim> +ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +ivan

16:02:38 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aabb

16:02:44 <tlebo> zakim, I am aabb

Timothy Lebo: zakim, I am aabb

16:02:44 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

16:03:29 <pgroth> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: Minutes were approved. Several action items were closed.

<pgroth> Summary: Minutes were approved. Several action items were closed.
16:03:44 <Zakim> +??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37

16:03:49 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.818.731.aacc

16:03:56 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-12-06

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-12-06

16:04:02 <Zakim> + +329331aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aadd

16:04:02 <pgroth> Minutes of Dec. 06, 2012

Paul Groth: Minutes of Dec. 06, 2012

16:04:08 <TomDN> Zakim, +32 is me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, +32 is me

16:04:08 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN; got it

16:04:09 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

16:04:16 <ivan> +!

Ivan Herman: +!

16:04:17 <dgarijo> I wasn't there, +0

Daniel Garijo: I wasn't there, +0

16:04:18 <TomDN> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

16:04:19 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:04:23 <jcheney> zakim, aaaa is me

James Cheney: zakim, aaaa is me

16:04:23 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

16:04:25 <Paolo> 0 (not present)

0 (not present)

16:04:30 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

16:04:37 <hook> 0 (not present)

Hook Hua: 0 (not present)

16:04:41 <jcheney> 0 (not present; I seem to be listed as both present & absent)

James Cheney: 0 (not present; I seem to be listed as both present & absent)

16:04:43 <Curt> 0 (not present)

Curt Tilmes: 0 (not present)

16:04:48 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

16:05:01 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of Dec. 06, 2012 Telcon

RESOLVED: Minutes of Dec. 06, 2012 Telcon

16:05:03 <SamCoppens> Zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN

Sam Coppens: Zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN

16:05:03 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it

16:05:34 <Paolo> pgroth: tlebo still working on his action

Paul Groth: tlebo still working on his action

16:05:54 <Paolo> pgroth: we can close all issues around questionnaire

Paul Groth: we can close all issues around questionnaire

16:06:18 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:06:18 <Paolo> pgroth: stephan not on the call, we are closing the issues, we assume the questionnaires are done

Paul Groth: stephan not on the call, we are closing the issues, we assume the questionnaires are done

16:07:07 <Paolo> pgroth: action 151 done. will elaborate. action-153 also done

Paul Groth: ACTION-151 done. will elaborate. ACTION-153 also done

16:07:16 <Zakim> +??P49

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P49

16:07:35 <Paolo> pgroth: still open actions 154, 155

Paul Groth: still open actions 154, 155

16:07:47 <Paolo> jcheney: working on it, please leave it open

James Cheney: working on it, please leave it open

16:07:59 <Paolo> Paolo: er, wil get to that, thanks for the reminder

Paolo Missier: er, wil get to that, thanks for the reminder

16:08:18 <Paolo> pgroth: action 156 to be discussed in the XML section of the agenda

Paul Groth: ACTION-156 to be discussed in the XML section of the agenda

16:08:59 <tlebo> :-)

Timothy Lebo: :-)

16:09:01 <pgroth> Topic: Congrats CR

2. Congrats CR

Summary: The release of the candidate recs and other notes was discussed. Group members were encouraged to advertise the release. Jun, Ivan, Paolo and Hook agreed to send the announcement to various mailing lists. Editor's were reminded to make sure the various editor's drafts were marked as such.

<pgroth> Summary: The release of the candidate recs and other notes was discussed. Group members were encouraged to advertise the release. Jun, Ivan, Paolo and Hook agreed to send the announcement to various mailing lists. Editor's were reminded to make sure the various editor's drafts were marked as such.
16:09:36 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2012/12/12/a-major-release-of-prov/

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2012/12/12/a-major-release-of-prov/

16:09:51 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Call_For_Implementations

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Call_For_Implementations

16:09:54 <Paolo> pgroth: we went to CR, this implies a major release of the whole set of docs. now is the time to advertise these. may use blog and web page for this

Paul Groth: we went to CR, this implies a major release of the whole set of docs. now is the time to advertise these. may use blog and web page for this

16:10:22 <Paolo> pgroth: encourage people to comment, implement, use

Paul Groth: encourage people to comment, implement, use

16:10:39 <Paolo> Paolo: I will send to DataONE as I have done in the past

Paolo Missier: I will send to DataONE as I have done in the past

16:10:58 <Paolo> q+

q+

16:11:05 <pgroth> ack Paolo

Paul Groth: ack Paolo

16:11:45 <Paolo> Paolo: will send to DBWorld as well

Paolo Missier: will send to DBWorld as well

16:11:45 <jun> I can send to pub-lif list

Jun Zhao: I can send to hcls list

16:12:16 <jun> s/pub-lif/hcls/
16:12:33 <Paolo> ivan: will post to sem-web list

Ivan Herman: will post to sem-web list

16:12:42 <hook> there is also the Federation of Earth Science Information Partners (ESIP)'s semantic web mailing list and the preservation & stewardship mailing list

Hook Hua: there is also the Federation of Earth Science Information Partners (ESIP)'s semantic web mailing list and the preservation & stewardship mailing list

16:12:54 <hook> sure

Hook Hua: sure

16:13:24 <Zakim> +??P54

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P54

16:13:28 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/WorkingDrafts

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/WorkingDrafts

16:13:48 <tlebo> ok.

Timothy Lebo: ok.

16:13:53 <zednik> ok

Stephan Zednik: ok

16:13:56 <dgarijo> ok

Daniel Garijo: ok

16:14:01 <Paolo> pgroth: editors to update the drafts back to "editor's draft" status

Paul Groth: editors to update the drafts back to "editor's draft" status

16:14:20 <dgarijo> ok

Daniel Garijo: ok

16:14:28 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:14:29 <Paolo> pgroth: please dgarijo check the link to DC

Paul Groth: please dgarijo check the link to DC

16:14:55 <Paolo> pgroth: we've got nice PROV logos

Paul Groth: we've got nice PROV logos

16:14:55 <pgroth> Topic: WG Implementations

3. WG Implementations

Summary: Group members were asked to fill out the implementation survey by the first week of January. This will allow us to check progress to meeting the exit criteria.

<pgroth> Summary: Group members were asked to fill out the implementation survey by the first week of January. This will allow us to check progress to meeting the exit criteria.
16:15:53 <Paolo> pgroth: please fill in implementation survey, so we know how we are going to meet our exit criteria

Paul Groth: please fill in implementation survey, so we know how we are going to meet our exit criteria

16:15:58 <dgarijo> **linked fix in the page**

Daniel Garijo: **linked fixed in the page**

16:16:07 <dgarijo> s/fix/fixed
16:16:26 <dgarijo> I will fill in a survey

Daniel Garijo: I will fill in a survey

16:16:28 <Paolo> pgroth: in particular if an impl.  builds upon (?) or connect with another impl

Paul Groth: in particular if an impl. builds upon (?) or connect with another impl

16:16:29 <jun> q+ what's the deadline?

Jun Zhao: q+ what's the deadline?

16:16:39 <pgroth> ack jun

Paul Groth: ack jun

16:17:01 <Zakim> +??P56

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P56

16:17:04 <Dong> Southampton will submit reports soon (by the end of 2012), 9 applications in total

Trung Huynh: Southampton will submit reports soon (by the end of 2012), 9 applications in total

16:17:13 <GK> zakim, ??p56 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p56 is me

16:17:13 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

16:17:20 <jun> ok, thanks!

Jun Zhao: ok, thanks!

16:17:20 <dgarijo> so, internal deadline: First week of January. Got it

Daniel Garijo: so, internal deadline: First week of January. Got it

16:17:21 <Paolo> pgroth: official deadline end of January, but internally fist week of Jan. would be ideal, so we know where our gaps are

Paul Groth: official deadline end of January, but internally fist week of Jan. would be ideal, so we know where our gaps are

16:17:29 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:17:53 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-AQ Reminder

4. PROV-AQ Reminder

Summary: Paul walked through four major changes to the PROV-AQ document. Group members were asked to respond via the mailing list. The goal is to release a draft for review by the group the second week of Jan.

<pgroth> Summary: Paul walked through four major changes to the PROV-AQ document. Group members were asked to respond via the mailing list. The goal is to release a draft for review by the group the second week of Jan.
16:18:29 <Paolo> pgroth: a number of issues on the list by GK

Paul Groth: a number of issues on the list by GK

16:18:34 <GK> I just joined the call.  Will trtyto field any questions.

Graham Klyne: I just joined the call. Will trtyto field any questions.

16:18:50 <pgroth> i think i will do it

Paul Groth: i think i will do it

16:18:57 <Paolo> GK: (very hard to hear)

Graham Klyne: (very hard to hear)

16:18:57 <ivan> graham, we do not understand you

Ivan Herman: graham, we do not understand you

16:19:00 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

16:19:25 <GK> OK.  VOIP problems again.

Graham Klyne: OK. VOIP problems again.

16:19:31 <Paolo> pgroth: (reporting for GK)

Paul Groth: (reporting for GK)

16:20:07 <Paolo> pgroth: major proposal ew need comments on: we introduced a description of content negotiation -- in spec. provenance services

Paul Groth: major proposal ew need comments on: we introduced a description of content negotiation -- in spec. provenance services

16:20:16 <Paolo> pgroth: this is new to the doc

Paul Groth: this is new to the doc

16:20:52 <Paolo> pgroth: also updated def. of prov services description, specifically on whether our use of RDF for service description is appropriate

Paul Groth: also updated def. of prov services description, specifically on whether our use of RDF for service description is appropriate

16:21:25 <Paolo> pgroth: also support for SPARQL query endpoints that can answer questions about provenance

Paul Groth: also support for SPARQL query endpoints that can answer questions about provenance

16:21:39 <Paolo> pgroth: does that reuire a new link type? (?)

Paul Groth: does that require a new link type? (?)

16:22:07 <Paolo> pgroth: also provenance pingback -- forward pointers to provenance

Paul Groth: also provenance pingback -- forward pointers to provenance

16:22:08 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:22:19 <GK> It's not using *provenance* from somewhere else…. it's generating provenance somewhere else...

Graham Klyne: It's not using *provenance* from somewhere else…. it's generating provenance somewhere else...

16:22:20 <Paolo> s/reuire/require
16:22:38 <GK> … i.e. using the resource, and being able to provide priovenance back to the resource spublisher

Graham Klyne: … i.e. using the resource, and being able to provide priovenance back to the resource spublisher

16:22:58 <GK> Im thinkl you giot it.

Graham Klyne: Im thinkl you giot it.

16:23:23 <Paolo> pgroth: please all look a these issues and contribute to the discussion on the list

Paul Groth: please all look a these issues and contribute to the discussion on the list

16:23:38 <Paolo> pgroth: hopefully all sorted by 2nd week in Jan

Paul Groth: hopefully all sorted by 2nd week in Jan

16:23:41 <GK> I also need to follow up some responses from LDP particpants

Graham Klyne: I also need to follow up some responses from LDP particpants

16:23:50 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-Dictionary

5. PROV-Dictionary

<pgroth> Tom  and Sam presented a draft of the prov-dictionary note. They went through some issues and changes that they wanted to discuss with the group. The conclusion was to circulate these with the group before an internal review.

Paul Groth: Tom and Sam presented a draft of the prov-dictionary note. They went through some issues and changes that they wanted to discuss with the group. The conclusion was to circulate these with the group before an internal review.

16:23:52 <TomDN> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/dictionary/prov-dictionary.html

Tom De Nies: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/dictionary/prov-dictionary.html

16:24:25 <TomDN> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/dictionary/PROV-Dictionary_discussion.txt

Tom De Nies: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/dictionary/PROV-Dictionary_discussion.txt

16:24:53 <Paolo> TomDN: need to open the txt file above to follow the discussion...

Tom De Nies: need to open the txt file above to follow the discussion...

16:25:28 <Paolo> TomDN: problems with the constraints and notation the editors did not like

Tom De Nies: problems with the constraints and notation the editors did not like

16:25:39 <Paolo> TomDN: txt file includes new proposed notation

Tom De Nies: txt file includes new proposed notation

16:26:28 <Paolo> TomDN: problem is that all membership must be in one relation. This won't work for long lists

Tom De Nies: problem is that all membership must be in one relation. This won't work for long lists

16:27:14 <Paolo> TomDN: propose the hadMember notation to align with Collections. multiple such statements are allowed

Tom De Nies: propose the hadMember notation to align with Collections. multiple such statements are allowed

16:27:44 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:27:56 <pgroth> ack ivan

Paul Groth: ack ivan

16:28:12 <tlebo> It's been a while since this group's made a design decision. Do we still remember how to do this ;-)

Timothy Lebo: It's been a while since this group's made a design decision. Do we still remember how to do this ;-)

16:28:19 <Paolo> TomDN: the proposed change is local to the dictionary doc

Tom De Nies: the proposed change is local to the dictionary doc

16:28:23 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:28:26 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

16:28:31 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

16:29:08 <tlebo> KeyValue pairs can be Entities.

Timothy Lebo: KeyValue pairs can be Entities.

16:29:09 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

16:29:18 <Paolo> smiles: is that really true that this has no effect in prov-n?  now the second parameter is no longer an entity

Simon Miles: is that really true that this has no effect in prov-n? now the second parameter is no longer an entity

16:29:38 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:29:41 <Paolo> TomDN: yes but that's one of the extensions for dictionary

Tom De Nies: yes but that's one of the extensions for dictionary

16:29:57 <pgroth> ack

Paul Groth: ack

16:30:00 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:30:30 <GK> Hmmm.. if entities can be key-value pairs, then maybe can align with LDP containers proposal more?

Graham Klyne: Hmmm.. if entities can be key-value pairs, then maybe can align with LDP containers proposal more?

16:30:39 <Paolo> pgroth: if there are no issues with this, it's ok to go ahead with the changes, but give the group an opportunity to review them

Paul Groth: if there are no issues with this, it's ok to go ahead with the changes, but give the group an opportunity to review them

16:31:04 <tlebo> +1 on issue 1

Timothy Lebo: +1 on ISSUE-1

16:31:14 <Luc> just stepping in, without having heard the discussion: it may be problematic to have hadMember(c,{k,e})  {k,e} is not an entity, but e is

Luc Moreau: just stepping in, without having heard the discussion: it may be problematic to have hadMember(c,{k,e}) {k,e} is not an entity, but e is

16:31:22 <Paolo> TomDN: issue 2 is on completeness of dictionaries

Tom De Nies: ISSUE-2 is on completeness of dictionaries

16:31:32 <GK> cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/ldp/#linked-data-platform-container

Graham Klyne: cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/ldp/#linked-data-platform-container

16:32:16 <Paolo> TomDN: old notation (with the 'true" flag) is problematic -- see the comment in txt file, section 2

Tom De Nies: old notation (with the 'true" flag) is problematic -- see the comment in txt file, section 2

16:33:07 <Paolo> TomDN: proposed / alt 1: add complete attribute to dictionary itself

Tom De Nies: proposed / alt 1: add complete attribute to dictionary itself

16:33:11 <MacTed> GK - is there a conflict between LDP containers and what we're discussing (i.e., would what's here break LDP containers)?  note that PROV is general case, and LDP is a specific case, so they needn't be in perfect sync; e.g., LDP may be more restrictive

Ted Thibodeau: GK - is there a conflict between LDP containers and what we're discussing (i.e., would what's here break LDP containers)? note that PROV is general case, and LDP is a specific case, so they needn't be in perfect sync; e.g., LDP may be more restrictive

16:33:16 <GK> I'm worried that this might fall foul of RDF monotonicity

Graham Klyne: I'm worried that this might fall foul of RDF monotonicity

16:34:24 <Paolo> TomDN: proposed alt 2: start from EmptyDictionary, then insert

Tom De Nies: proposed alt 2: start from EmptyDictionary, then insert

16:34:38 <Paolo> TomDN: the result must be complete

Tom De Nies: the result must be complete

16:34:39 <GK> @MacTed - not seeing any breakage, just trying to make sure we're aware and making sure things can be used together.  I guess my thinking is that (if it makes sense) use LDP structure as base and focus PROV effort on container-based provenance

Graham Klyne: @MacTed - not seeing any breakage, just trying to make sure we're aware and making sure things can be used together. I guess my thinking is that (if it makes sense) use LDP structure as base and focus PROV effort on container-based provenance

16:34:43 <Paolo> q+

q+

16:34:54 <MacTed> GK - I'm not understanding your concern.  "RDF monotonicity" meaning?

Ted Thibodeau: GK - I'm not understanding your concern. "RDF monotonicity" meaning?

16:35:09 <tlebo> I'm not sure you'd "be sure" that it's complete in ALTERNATIVE 2... since other derivations could have inserted elements.

Timothy Lebo: I'm not sure you'd "be sure" that it's complete in ALTERNATIVE 2... since other derivations could have inserted elements.

16:35:25 <pgroth> ack Paolo

Paul Groth: ack Paolo

16:35:25 <GK> @macted - meaning that it should not be possible to invalidfate anyinference by adding a new RDF statement

Graham Klyne: @macted - meaning that it should not be possible to invalidfate anyinference by adding a new RDF statement

16:35:43 <MacTed> GK - "Linked Data Platform" is not parallel to nor core of "Linked Data" nor "RDF".  interpretation based on naming is unfortunate.

Ted Thibodeau: GK - "Linked Data Platform" is not parallel to nor core of "Linked Data" nor "RDF". interpretation based on naming is unfortunate.

16:36:36 <tlebo> +1 to "I'm telling you that I think it's closed" as opposed to relying on walking through a derivation to see.

Timothy Lebo: +1 to "I'm telling you that I think it's closed" as opposed to relying on walking through a derivation to see.

16:36:38 <Paolo> Paolo: does alt 2 really entail completeness?

Paolo Missier: does alt 2 really entail completeness?

16:36:41 <GK> i.e. whenever   a |= b   then a \/ x |= b for any x, where a, b and x are RDF graphs.

Graham Klyne: i.e. whenever a |= b then a \/ x |= b for any x, where a, b and x are RDF graphs.

16:37:01 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:37:37 <Paolo> pgroth: can we leave both of these in the draft and have people discuss/select?

Paul Groth: can we leave both of these in the draft and have people discuss/select?

16:37:54 <Paolo> TomDN: sec. 3 is on constraints

Tom De Nies: sec. 3 is on constraints

16:37:58 <GK> @macted - agreed, but if it makes sense to re-use it seems that would be a Good Thing.

Graham Klyne: @macted - agreed, but if it makes sense to re-use it seems that would be a Good Thing.

16:39:25 <Zakim> +Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc

16:40:30 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:40:39 <Paolo> TomDN: seeking help with the very last constraint

Tom De Nies: seeking help with the very last constraint

16:41:32 <Paolo> jcheney: conclusion of the rule can be fixed and formalized (each member of d1 is also a member of d2 and vice versa)

James Cheney: conclusion of the rule can be fixed and formalized (each member of d1 is also a member of d2 and vice versa)

16:41:50 <Paolo> jcheney: this requires a more expressive logic than what we currently use

James Cheney: this requires a more expressive logic than what we currently use

16:42:00 <Paolo> q+

q+

16:42:08 <pgroth> ack Paolo

Paul Groth: ack Paolo

16:42:25 <MacTed> GK - I think LDP is too much moving target, and also too much "subset" to be considered for this re-use.

Ted Thibodeau: GK - I think LDP is too much moving target, and also too much "subset" to be considered for this re-use.

16:43:57 <Paolo> Paolo: last constraint effectively *defines* that provenance of dictionaries is complete

Paolo Missier: last constraint effectively *defines* that provenance of dictionaries is complete

16:44:42 <Paolo> pgroth: next steps: you could solicit a discussion on these issues, and then go for a proper review

Paul Groth: next steps: you could solicit a discussion on these issues, and then go for a proper review

16:45:10 <Paolo> pgroth: or: we do a draft first, then "discuss by review"

Paul Groth: or: we do a draft first, then "discuss by review"

16:45:12 <GK> @macted I more than partly agree.   OTOH, don't want to completely ignore what seems to be a significant effort.  I was specifically asked to consider LDP views for PROV-AQ stuff (which I know isn't the same thing, but the principle seems applicabl;e).

Graham Klyne: @macted I more than partly agree. OTOH, don't want to completely ignore what seems to be a significant effort. I was specifically asked to consider LDP views for PROV-AQ stuff (which I know isn't the same thing, but the principle seems applicabl;e).

16:45:52 <Paolo> TomDN: agree on option 1

Tom De Nies: agree on option 1

16:46:03 <Paolo> pgroth: so please start a discussion and then we will appoint reviewers

Paul Groth: so please start a discussion and then we will appoint reviewers

16:46:54 <Paolo> TomDN: nothing about prov-xml in the doc. are the prov-xml people planning to implement dictionaries? if so they would be best placed to add this part

Tom De Nies: nothing about prov-xml in the doc. are the prov-xml people planning to implement dictionaries? if so they would be best placed to add this part

16:47:05 <tlebo> seems like it's not stable enough to fill out the PROV-XML examples.

Timothy Lebo: seems like it's not stable enough to fill out the PROV-XML examples.

16:47:17 <Paolo> pgroth: best to first agree on these issues, add XML examples later

Paul Groth: best to first agree on these issues, add XML examples later

16:47:25 <TomDN> :)

Tom De Nies: :)

16:47:27 <tlebo> +1 great stuff, @TomDN

Timothy Lebo: +1 great stuff, @TomDN

16:47:28 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-xml

6. Prov-xml

Summary: Stephan gave an update. We discussed the problem of upper case and lower case names causing some confusion about the relationship between PROV-XML and RDF/XML. One idea was to ensure that the document level elements were shown within examples.

<pgroth> Summary: Stephan gave an update. We discussed the problem of upper case and lower case names causing some confusion about the relationship between PROV-XML and RDF/XML. One idea was to ensure that the document level elements were shown within examples.
16:47:35 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, mute me

16:47:35 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should now be muted

16:47:45 <TomDN> @tlebo, tnx!

Tom De Nies: @tlebo, tnx!

16:47:48 <Paolo> pgroth: status update?

Paul Groth: status update?

16:48:06 <Paolo> zednik: FPWD with good feedback from the group

Stephan Zednik: FPWD with good feedback from the group

16:48:23 <Paolo> zednik: still processing the feedback

Stephan Zednik: still processing the feedback

16:48:54 <Paolo> zednik: need to differentiate the two XML serial. that we have (one native, one for prov-o)

Stephan Zednik: need to differentiate the two XML serial. that we have (one native, one for prov-o)

16:49:16 <Paolo> zednik: will add naming conventions to the editor's draft. should be ready very soon

Stephan Zednik: will add naming conventions to the editor's draft. should be ready very soon

16:49:21 <smiles> Could someone raise an issue for the primer, so I can be clear what is required?

Simon Miles: Could someone raise an issue for the primer, so I can be clear what is required?

16:49:40 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:49:54 <Paolo> pgroth: any feedback from xml people?

Paul Groth: any feedback from xml people?

16:50:13 <hook> we also got feedback from Stian on namespaces http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvXMLNamespaces

Hook Hua: we also got feedback from Stian on namespaces http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvXMLNamespaces

16:50:16 <Paolo> zednik: early to tell

Stephan Zednik: early to tell

16:50:29 <Paolo> pgroth: comments?

Paul Groth: comments?

16:50:29 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:50:38 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

16:51:04 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

16:51:40 <pgroth> -- prov:Entity

Paul Groth: -- prov:Entity

16:51:47 <pgroth> <prov:entity

Paul Groth: <prov:entity

16:52:01 <Paolo> pgroth: people who looked at the XMl in the primer under Turtle, thought it was for the RDF. that was confusing

Paul Groth: people who looked at the XMl in the primer under Turtle, thought it was for the RDF. that was confusing

16:52:09 <zednik> q+

Stephan Zednik: q+

16:52:10 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

16:52:18 <Paolo> pgroth: need to clarify

Paul Groth: need to clarify

16:53:04 <zednik> q-

Stephan Zednik: q-

16:53:42 <MacTed> putting an inline comment in the example(s) might be worthwhile...

Ted Thibodeau: putting an inline comment in the example(s) might be worthwhile...

16:54:02 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:54:02 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:54:19 <Paolo> smiles: problem is there are many examples, it would be messy

Simon Miles: problem is there are many examples, it would be messy

16:55:09 <Paolo> MacTed: there is a risk we are creating confusion, can't expect others to be clear about the distinction amongst the XML versions

Ted Thibodeau: there is a risk we are creating confusion, can't expect others to be clear about the distinction amongst the XML versions

16:55:09 <tlebo> @smiles, perhaps replace "XML Example (hide all)" with "PROV-XML Example (hide all)"+= link to prov-xml in every title to an example.

Timothy Lebo: @smiles, perhaps replace "XML Example (hide all)" with "PROV-XML Example (hide all)"+= link to prov-xml in every title to an example.

16:55:29 <Paolo> pgroth: it's just a matter of clarifying that prov-xml is not prov-o xml

Paul Groth: it's just a matter of clarifying that prov-xml is not prov-o xml

16:55:53 <zednik> q+

Stephan Zednik: q+

16:55:56 <Paolo> pgroth: only have one type of XML serial visible

Paul Groth: only have one type of XML serial visible

16:56:13 <pgroth> ack zednik

Paul Groth: ack zednik

16:56:13 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:56:13 <tlebo> -.5 to @pgroth 's "show only one"

Timothy Lebo: -.5 to @pgroth 's "show only one"

16:56:13 <smiles> @tlebo Could do, certainly, but I'm not clear if it completely solves the problem

Simon Miles: @tlebo Could do, certainly, but I'm not clear if it completely solves the problem

16:56:14 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:56:37 <tlebo> @smiles every bit throughout helps.

Timothy Lebo: @smiles every bit throughout helps.

16:56:43 <Paolo> zednik: technically it can be easy to add the message to convey the distinction without too much manual effort

Stephan Zednik: technically it can be easy to add the message to convey the distinction without too much manual effort

16:56:51 <pgroth> that's fair enough

Paul Groth: that's fair enough

16:56:53 <Curt> Would it be worth adding a sentence in the OVERVIEW saying PROV-XML is not an RDF/XML version of PROV-O (in addition to adding to primer)

Curt Tilmes: Would it be worth adding a sentence in the OVERVIEW saying PROV-XML is not an RDF/XML version of PROV-O (in addition to adding to primer)

16:57:00 <Paolo> zednik: we should present rather than hide the distinction

Stephan Zednik: we should present rather than hide the distinction

16:57:16 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:57:25 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:57:30 <MacTed> +1 present distinction, don't hid it.  confusion won't only come in *here* -- what happens when PROV-XML is encountered in the wild, and taken for RDF/XML?

Ted Thibodeau: +1 present distinction, don't hid it. confusion won't only come in *here* -- what happens when PROV-XML is encountered in the wild, and taken for RDF/XML?

16:57:53 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

16:57:54 <tlebo> +1 to seeing the entire document. That's why PROV-O's examples have full TTL in every one.

Timothy Lebo: +1 to seeing the entire document. That's why PROV-O's examples have full TTL in every one.

16:58:05 <Paolo> Luc: XML examples contain just entities, if we added the context, would it be clear enough indication that it's native XML

Luc Moreau: XML examples contain just entities, if we added the context, would it be clear enough indication that it's native XML

16:58:09 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

16:58:20 <tlebo> (and adding the <xml> bit at the very top)

Timothy Lebo: (and adding the <xml> bit at the very top)

16:58:23 <Paolo> Luc: i.e., by adding the root elements to the examples

Luc Moreau: i.e., by adding the root elements to the examples

16:58:32 <zednik> +1 to show entire <prov:document> in xml examples

Stephan Zednik: +1 to show entire <prov:document> in xml examples

16:58:51 <pgroth> Topic: Namespace

7. Namespace

Summary: Brief updates on creating consolidated documents (XML, RDF, HTML) for hosting at the prov namespace.

<pgroth> Summary: Brief updates on creating consolidated documents (XML, RDF, HTML) for hosting at the prov namespace.
16:59:11 <Luc> @smiles: instead of say XML example, can we say PROV-XML example?

Luc Moreau: @smiles: instead of say XML example, can we say PROV-XML example?

16:59:11 <Paolo> pgroth: status update on XML namespace:?

Paul Groth: status update on XML namespace:?

16:59:36 <tlebo> yup, I"m fine with it.

Timothy Lebo: yup, I"m fine with it.

17:00:27 <tlebo> ah, sorry. I thought you were referring to the @xmlns: issue...

Timothy Lebo: ah, sorry. I thought you were referring to the @xmlns: issue...

17:00:30 <Paolo> pgroth: on merging multiple docs into one ns in XML:?

Paul Groth: on merging multiple docs into one ns in XML:?

17:00:42 <Paolo> zednik: need to look at what stian is proposing

Stephan Zednik: need to look at what stian is proposing

17:01:19 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/ns/prov#

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/ns/prov#

17:01:46 <Paolo> pgroth: need a glossary off the landing page

Paul Groth: need a glossary off the landing page

17:02:04 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

17:02:06 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

17:02:09 <MacTed> +1 "say PROV-XML example"

Ted Thibodeau: +1 "say PROV-XML example"

17:02:10 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

17:02:23 <tlebo> bye!

Timothy Lebo: bye!

17:02:25 <SamCoppens> bye!

Sam Coppens: bye!

17:02:27 <dgarijo> bye

Daniel Garijo: bye

17:02:29 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

17:02:30 <Zakim> -TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN

17:02:31 <Zakim> -jun

Zakim IRC Bot: -jun

17:02:32 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

17:02:32 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

17:02:34 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

17:02:35 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

17:02:35 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

17:02:36 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.818.731.aacc

17:02:36 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

17:02:36 <Zakim> -??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P37

17:02:36 <Dong> bye all

Trung Huynh: bye all

17:02:38 <Zakim> -??P54

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P54

17:02:40 <GK> Bye

Graham Klyne: Bye

17:02:40 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

17:02:43 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

17:02:45 <zednik> bye

Stephan Zednik: bye

17:02:47 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

17:03:00 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

17:03:04 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

17:03:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/13-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/13-prov-minutes.html pgroth

17:03:10 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon

17:03:10 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

17:03:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, MacTed, Paolo, Curt_Tilmes, +44.131.467.aaaa, dgarijo, jun, ivan, +1.315.330.aabb, tlebo, +1.818.731.aacc, +329331aadd, TomDN,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, MacTed, Paolo, Curt_Tilmes, +44.131.467.aaaa, dgarijo, jun, ivan, +1.315.330.aabb, tlebo, +1.818.731.aacc, +329331aadd, TomDN,

17:03:13 <Zakim> ... jcheney, SamCoppens, GK, Satya_Sahoo, Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: ... jcheney, SamCoppens, GK, Satya_Sahoo, Luc

17:03:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

17:03:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/13-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/13-prov-minutes.html trackbot

17:03:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

17:03:19 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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