edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 13 September 2012

Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, Hook Hua, Ivan Herman, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Stephen Cresswell, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Tom De Nies, Trung Huynh
Regrets
Simon Miles, James Cheney, Curt Tilmes, Khalid Belhajjame, Graham Klyne
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Satya Sahoo, Daniel Garijo
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Minutes of the September 6, 2012 Telecon link
  2. to have responses to the issues in the agenda by tuesday link
  3. subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice link
Topics
  1. Admin

  2. F2F4

    The group was referred to the wiki page on the 4th face-to-face meeting. All members were encouraged to indicate their attendance either in-person or on the phone.

  3. Prov-o telcon

  4. PROV-Constraints Dissemination

    The prov-constraints document has gone last call and the editor's posted an associated blog entry. The group was encouraged to spread the information and encourage reviews. The following people agreed to send emails. Ivan to the semweb list. Satya to the HCLS mailing list. Luc to the provenance-challenge mailing list. James would be asked to send the news to the Dagstuhl mailing list.

  5. Resolving Issues

    Luc went through a list of issues raised externally on the PROV-DM and received feedback on his suggest replies. The group agreed to review his proposed replies by Tuesday of the following week. If there were no objections these would be sent as responses on behalf of the group.

  6. Subactivity

    The group discussed ISSUE-447 on whether to introduce subactivity based on external feedback. The resolution was to introduce a FAQ that would suggest the use of dcterms:hasPart but to leave this out of any official specs. Paul agreed to start this FAQ on the Semantic Web Activity wiki so that it could be updated in the future.

  7. Implementation Report

    Paul presented an structure for the implementation report. Stephan has produced an associated questionnaire that allows implementers to easily report their information. The group discussed the need for test cases. The group agreed that example test cases were good but that producing an actual test harness is probably not feasible.

14:24:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc

14:24:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:24:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:24:35 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:24:36 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:24:36 <trackbot> Date: 13 September 2012
14:24:52 <ivan> zakim, this will be prov

Ivan Herman: zakim, this will be prov

14:24:52 <Zakim> ok, ivan; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 36 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 36 minutes

14:57:49 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 32 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:57:56 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

14:58:25 <Zakim> +Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc

14:59:00 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

14:59:07 <pgroth> trackbot, start telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, start telcon

14:59:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:59:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:59:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:59:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:59:12 <trackbot> Date: 13 September 2012
14:59:15 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:59:15 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started

14:59:16 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aaaa

14:59:20 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:59:25 <pgroth> Scribe: Satya Sahoo

(Scribe set to Satya Sahoo)

14:59:36 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:59:36 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:59:37 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:59:44 <pgroth> Regrets: Simon Miles, James Cheney, Curt Tilmes, Khalid Belhajjame, Graham Klyne
14:59:51 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

15:00:42 <pgroth> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:01:32 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-09-06

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-09-06

15:01:37 <satya> Paul: Agenda items: updates on F2F, PROV-O admin issues, outstanding issues, and implementation reports

Paul Groth: Agenda items: updates on F2F, PROV-O admin issues, outstanding issues, and implementation reports

15:01:39 <pgroth> Minutes of the September 6, 2012 Telecon

Paul Groth: Minutes of the September 6, 2012 Telecon

15:01:52 <satya> +1

+1

15:01:58 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:02:08 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.818.731.aabb

15:02:51 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the September 6, 2012 Telecon

RESOLVED: Minutes of the September 6, 2012 Telecon

15:03:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:03:16 <jun> zakim, IPcaller is me

Jun Zhao: zakim, IPcaller is me

15:03:22 <Zakim> +jun; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it

15:03:27 <satya> Paul: Open action on Paulo, Paul still open

Paul Groth: Open action on Paulo, Paul still open

15:04:11 <satya> Paul: Action item regarding XML schema definition

Paul Groth: Action item regarding XML schema definition

15:04:13 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

15:04:23 <satya> Hook: Completed the XSD

Hook Hua: Completed the XSD

15:04:29 <satya> Paul: Action item on Hook closed

Paul Groth: Action item on Hook closed

15:04:52 <pgroth> Topic: F2F4

2. F2F4

Summary: The group was referred to the wiki page on the 4th face-to-face meeting. All members were encouraged to indicate their attendance either in-person or on the phone.

<pgroth> Summary: The group was referred to the wiki page on the 4th face-to-face meeting. All members were encouraged to indicate their attendance either in-person or on the phone.
15:04:52 <satya> Paul: Please sign up for scribe

Paul Groth: Please sign up for scribe

15:04:58 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F4

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F4

15:05:04 <satya> Paul: Next agenda item regarding 4th F2F

Paul Groth: Next agenda item regarding 4th F2F

15:05:20 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

15:05:21 <satya> Paul: Please sign for the F2F either remotely or in person

Paul Groth: Please sign for the F2F either remotely or in person

15:05:28 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:05:34 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:05:35 <satya> Paul: Question regarding F2F?

Paul Groth: Question regarding F2F?

15:05:38 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-o telcon

3. Prov-o telcon

<pgroth> The group was informed that prov-o discussions would be folded into the main telcon and that the Monday telcon time slot was available for other discussions. It was suggested that the prov xml group could use the slot.

Paul Groth: The group was informed that prov-o discussions would be folded into the main telcon and that the Monday telcon time slot was available for other discussions. It was suggested that the prov xml group could use the slot.

15:05:51 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:05:54 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:05:56 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:06:01 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:06:16 <satya> Paul: PROV-O telcon was important for development of the ontology, currently responding to the comments

Paul Groth: PROV-O telcon was important for development of the ontology, currently responding to the comments

15:06:29 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:06:44 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:06:45 <Luc> q+ to suggest prov-xml team could use the prov-o slot

Luc Moreau: q+ to suggest prov-xml team could use the prov-o slot

15:06:46 <satya> Paul: Discussed with prov-o team to roll in the prov-o discussion items into the regular PROV call

Paul Groth: Discussed with prov-o team to roll in the prov-o discussion items into the regular PROV call

15:06:50 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:06:50 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to suggest prov-xml team could use the prov-o slot

Zakim IRC Bot: Luc, you wanted to suggest prov-xml team could use the prov-o slot

15:07:17 <Zakim> +TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN

15:07:19 <satya> Luc: PROV-XML team may want to use the PROV-O time slot on Monday for discussion

Luc Moreau: PROV-XML team may want to use the PROV-O time slot on Monday for discussion

15:07:22 <zednik> q+

Stephan Zednik: q+

15:07:23 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:07:29 <pgroth> ack zednik

Paul Groth: ack zednik

15:07:44 <satya> zednik: Agree if rest of the PROV-XML team agrees

Stephan Zednik: Agree if rest of the PROV-XML team agrees

15:07:51 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Tom De Nies: Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:07:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Satya_Sahoo, Luc, ??P2, +1.315.330.aaaa, Ivan, +1.818.731.aabb, jun, ??P8, ??P5, MacTed (muted), Luc., TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Satya_Sahoo, Luc, ??P2, +1.315.330.aaaa, Ivan, +1.818.731.aabb, jun, ??P8, ??P5, MacTed (muted), Luc., TomDN

15:07:57 <hook> sounds good

Hook Hua: sounds good

15:08:05 <TomDN> Zakim, Samcoppens is with TomDN

Tom De Nies: Zakim, Samcoppens is with TomDN

15:08:05 <Zakim> +Samcoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Samcoppens; got it

15:08:11 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:08:23 <satya> Paul: PROV-XML will use the monday timeslot for meetings

Paul Groth: PROV-XML will use the monday timeslot for meetings

15:08:26 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-Constraints Dissemination

4. PROV-Constraints Dissemination

Summary: The prov-constraints document has gone last call and the editor's posted an associated blog entry. The group was encouraged to spread the information and encourage reviews. The following people agreed to send emails. Ivan to the semweb list. Satya to the HCLS mailing list. Luc to the provenance-challenge mailing list. James would be asked to send the news to the Dagstuhl mailing list.

<pgroth> Summary: The prov-constraints document has gone last call and the editor's posted an associated blog entry. The group was encouraged to spread the information and encourage reviews. The following people agreed to send emails. Ivan to the semweb list. Satya to the HCLS mailing list. Luc to the provenance-challenge mailing list. James would be asked to send the news to the Dagstuhl mailing list.
15:08:27 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, mute me

15:08:27 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should now be muted

15:08:35 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-constraints/

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-constraints/

15:08:40 <satya> Paul: Next agenda item: PROV constraints dissemination

Paul Groth: Next agenda item: PROV constraints dissemination

15:08:57 <satya> Paul: Congrats to the editors of PROV constraints!

Paul Groth: Congrats to the editors of PROV constraints!

15:09:19 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2012/09/12/last-call-constraints-of-the-provenance-data-model-2/

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2012/09/12/last-call-constraints-of-the-provenance-data-model-2/

15:09:37 <satya> Paul: Paolo, Luc created a blog post describing the PROV constraints

Paul Groth: Paolo, Luc created a blog post describing the PROV constraints

15:09:48 <satya> Paul: Please share the blog with others

Paul Groth: Please share the blog with others

15:10:05 <satya> Paul: Can someone volunteer to share this with various maling lists

Paul Groth: Can someone volunteer to share this with various maling lists

15:10:26 <satya> maling/mailing

maling/mailing

15:10:30 <pgroth> ivan to semweb list

Paul Groth: ivan to semweb list

15:10:53 <pgroth> satya to hclrs

Paul Groth: satya to hclrs

15:11:23 <satya> Paul: Luc can share with provenance challenge

Paul Groth: Luc can share with provenance challenge

15:11:23 <pgroth> luc provenance challenge mailing list

Paul Groth: luc provenance challenge mailing list

15:11:46 <satya> Paul: James to share with Dagstuhl mailing list

Paul Groth: James to share with Dagstuhl mailing list

15:11:46 <pgroth> james cheney to mailing list

Paul Groth: james cheney to mailing list

15:11:48 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:12:21 <pgroth> Topic: Resolving Issues

5. Resolving Issues

Summary: Luc went through a list of issues raised externally on the PROV-DM and received feedback on his suggest replies. The group agreed to review his proposed replies by Tuesday of the following week. If there were no objections these would be sent as responses on behalf of the group.

<pgroth> Summary: Luc went through a list of issues raised externally on the PROV-DM and received feedback on his suggest replies. The group agreed to review his proposed replies by Tuesday of the following week. If there were no objections these would be sent as responses on behalf of the group.
15:12:57 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:12:57 <satya> Paul: Issues raised for PROV-DM (primarily from Robert@Mayo clinic)

Paul Groth: Issues raised for PROV-DM (primarily from Robert@Mayo clinic)

15:13:02 <pgroth> Zakim, who's noisy

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's noisy

15:13:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who's noisy', pgroth

15:13:10 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (69%), ??P2 (9%), Ivan (9%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (69%), ??P2 (9%), Ivan (9%)

15:13:11 <pgroth> zakim, who is noisy?

Paul Groth: zakim, who is noisy?

15:13:17 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

15:13:17 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

15:13:27 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

15:13:29 <satya> Luc: Reviewed the feedback for comments that require changes to the data model

Luc Moreau: Reviewed the feedback for comments that require changes to the data model

15:13:41 <satya> Luc: Drafted responses to these specific issues

Luc Moreau: Drafted responses to these specific issues

15:14:00 <satya> Luc: ISSUE 532 regarding roles, to allow roles for more relations

Luc Moreau: ISSUE-532 regarding roles, to allow roles for more relations

15:14:17 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0141.html

Luc Moreau: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0141.html

15:14:31 <satya> Luc: WG decided against this as there was no satisfactory resolution

Luc Moreau: WG decided against this as there was no satisfactory resolution

15:15:24 <satya> Luc: Protocol to follow to resolve these issues - vote or put it up for discussion on a wiki page

Luc Moreau: Protocol to follow to resolve these issues - vote or put it up for discussion on a wiki page

15:15:53 <ivan> yes

Ivan Herman: yes

15:15:58 <satya> Paul: If there are no objections raised by a particular date, then confirm with the person who raised the issue

Paul Groth: If there are no objections raised by a particular date, then confirm with the person who raised the issue

15:16:14 <ivan> zakim, unmute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me

15:16:14 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should no longer be muted

15:17:22 <satya> Ivan: It is good to have a confirmation to the proposed solution, but it may not be always possible

Ivan Herman: It is good to have a confirmation to the proposed solution, but it may not be always possible

15:17:43 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

15:18:57 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:19:15 <satya> Paul: Let the WG consider the response by Monday and then get back to the person raising the issue

Paul Groth: Let the WG consider the response by Monday and then get back to the person raising the issue

15:19:28 <satya> Luc: Where should the response be posted?

Luc Moreau: Where should the response be posted?

15:19:37 <satya> Ivan: In the tracker

Ivan Herman: In the tracker

15:20:24 <satya> Ivan: The response should include links to the person's confirmation

Ivan Herman: The response should include links to the person's confirmation

15:20:49 <satya> Luc: ISSUE 525: Specialization and Alternate to be subtype of Influence

Luc Moreau: ISSUE-525: Specialization and Alternate to be subtype of Influence

15:21:15 <satya> Luc: WG resolution on this issue

Luc Moreau: WG resolution on this issue

15:21:29 <pgroth> note, working group members should respond to these suggestions by monday

Paul Groth: note, working group members should respond to these suggestions by monday

15:21:37 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:21:40 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:21:45 <satya> Luc: Questions/comments on ISSUE 525

Luc Moreau: Questions/comments on ISSUE-525

15:22:31 <satya> Luc: Include attributes for these relations, create patterns similar to the relations

Luc Moreau: Include attributes for these relations, create patterns similar to the relations

15:22:50 <satya> Luc: There was decision against this approach

Luc Moreau: There was decision against this approach

15:22:50 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:23:07 <satya> Paul: Should include this discussion in the response

Paul Groth: Should include this discussion in the response

15:23:49 <satya> Paul: Add a section to the wiki page for the issue to include updates

Paul Groth: Add a section to the wiki page for the issue to include updates

15:23:56 <pgroth> ivan?

Paul Groth: ivan?

15:24:42 <satya> Luc: ISSUE 507: wasAssociatedWith in DM, PROV-O includes this property and also an inverse relation - to include the inverse relation in DM

Luc Moreau: ISSUE-507: wasAssociatedWith in DM, PROV-O includes this property and also an inverse relation - to include the inverse relation in DM

15:25:03 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:25:29 <pgroth> ack ivan

Paul Groth: ack ivan

15:25:31 <satya> Luc: In relational design, we do not include inverse relations. PROV-O includes inverse relations due to OWL/RDF

Luc Moreau: In relational design, we do not include inverse relations. PROV-O includes inverse relations due to OWL/RDF

15:25:47 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:25:55 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:25:55 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:26:03 <satya> Ivan: Understands Luc's point, Is it necessary to have an inverse relation?

Ivan Herman: Understands Luc's point, Is it necessary to have an inverse relation?

15:26:08 <Zakim> +??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15

15:26:15 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P15 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P15 is me

15:26:15 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:26:22 <zednik> q+

Stephan Zednik: q+

15:26:37 <satya> Ivan: It is usual to have this pattern in an ontology, but it may lead to complexity

Ivan Herman: It is usual to have this pattern in an ontology, but it may lead to complexity

15:26:42 <pgroth> ack MacTed

Paul Groth: ack MacTed

15:27:06 <satya> Mac: The notion of what is a relation and what is its inverse is arbitrary

Ted Thibodeau: The notion of what is a relation and what is its inverse is arbitrary

15:27:07 <pgroth> ack zednik

Paul Groth: ack zednik

15:27:16 <satya> Mac: So, both should be there

Ted Thibodeau: So, both should be there

15:28:04 <satya> Stephen: There was a lot of discussion in PROV-O regarding this, it is currently a suggestion for the inverse properties (to ensure consistent naming)

Stephen Cresswell: There was a lot of discussion in PROV-O regarding this, it is currently a suggestion for the inverse properties (to ensure consistent naming)

15:28:19 <satya> Stephen: The inverse is not always explicitly specified

Stephen Cresswell: The inverse is not always explicitly specified

15:28:44 <satya> Ivan: Not sure what does it mean - are they part of the OWL file?

Ivan Herman: Not sure what does it mean - are they part of the OWL file?

15:29:02 <satya> Tim: They are not, the inverse are in a separate OWL file

Timothy Lebo: They are not, the inverse are in a separate OWL file

15:29:32 <satya> Ivan: Not convinced, not having them at all is a better solution

Ivan Herman: Not convinced, not having them at all is a better solution

15:30:10 <satya> Tim: PROV-O tried to reach a compromise and the current solution is after long discussion

Timothy Lebo: PROV-O tried to reach a compromise and the current solution is after long discussion

15:30:49 <satya> Luc: PROV-O does not include inverse relation, hence it is normative - so PROV-O and DM are aligned

Luc Moreau: PROV-O does not include inverse relation, hence it is normative - so PROV-O and DM are aligned

15:30:56 <satya> Luc: Will rephrase the answer

Luc Moreau: Will rephrase the answer

15:30:58 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:31:04 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/504

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/504

15:31:12 <ivan> issue-504?

Ivan Herman: ISSUE-504?

15:31:12 <trackbot> ISSUE-504 -- Data Model Section 2.2.2 -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-504 -- Data Model Section 2.2.2 -- open

15:31:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/504

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/504

15:31:20 <satya> Luc: ISSUE-504, regarding bundles and collections

Luc Moreau: ISSUE-504, regarding bundles and collections

15:32:48 <satya> Luc: WG has discussed this issue on multiple points - WG resolved not to have identifiers on provenance assertions, bundles allow assertion of identifiers and make statements about bundles

Luc Moreau: WG has discussed this issue on multiple points - WG resolved not to have identifiers on provenance assertions, bundles allow assertion of identifiers and make statements about bundles

15:33:11 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:33:12 <satya> Luc: WG considers this as a good compromise

Luc Moreau: WG considers this as a good compromise

15:33:44 <satya> Paul: Include a change in definition of collections?

Paul Groth: Include a change in definition of collections?

15:34:33 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/503

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/503

15:34:55 <satya> Luc: ISSUE 503: regarding agents that adopt a plan

Luc Moreau: ISSUE-503: regarding agents that adopt a plan

15:35:35 <satya> Luc: wasAdoptedBy should be a new definition in PROV to allow plan to be assigned to agent without use of activity

Luc Moreau: wasAdoptedBy should be a new definition in PROV to allow plan to be assigned to agent without use of activity

15:35:42 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

15:35:42 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

15:36:05 <satya> Luc: Responded to Paul separately, not sure what is to be done here

Luc Moreau: Responded to Paul separately, not sure what is to be done here

15:36:22 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:36:32 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:36:41 <pgroth> ack dgarijo

Paul Groth: ack dgarijo

15:37:03 <satya> dgarijo: Does he have a use case that would justify the introduction of this new relation?

Daniel Garijo: Does he have a use case that would justify the introduction of this new relation?

15:37:15 <satya> Luc: Not to my knowledge

Luc Moreau: Not to my knowledge

15:37:23 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:37:23 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:37:37 <satya> dgarijo: We have enough relations to cover this use, so would not vote to have a new relation

Daniel Garijo: We have enough relations to cover this use, so would not vote to have a new relation

15:37:57 <dgarijo> that makes sense

Daniel Garijo: that makes sense

15:38:06 <satya> Paul: Is this relation an easy extension to existing PROV model?

Paul Groth: Is this relation an easy extension to existing PROV model?

15:38:40 <satya> Tim: Would it be a property chain or qualified association based rule?

Timothy Lebo: Would it be a property chain or qualified association based rule?

15:39:04 <satya> Paul: This suggestion can be included in the response

Paul Groth: This suggestion can be included in the response

15:40:16 <satya> Luc: Will edit the wiki page tomorrow and send mail - give time till Tuesday

Luc Moreau: Will edit the wiki page tomorrow and send mail - give time till Tuesday

15:40:35 <satya> Paul: Any objections to have responses to this discussion by Tuesday?

Paul Groth: Any objections to have responses to this discussion by Tuesday?

15:41:03 <pgroth> accepted: to have responses to the issues in the agenda by tuesday

RESOLVED: to have responses to the issues in the agenda by tuesday

15:41:20 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:41:57 <pgroth> Topic: Subactivity

6. Subactivity

Summary: The group discussed ISSUE-447 on whether to introduce subactivity based on external feedback. The resolution was to introduce a FAQ that would suggest the use of dcterms:hasPart but to leave this out of any official specs. Paul agreed to start this FAQ on the Semantic Web Activity wiki so that it could be updated in the future.

<pgroth> Summary: The group discussed ISSUE-447 on whether to introduce subactivity based on external feedback. The resolution was to introduce a FAQ that would suggest the use of dcterms:hasPart but to leave this out of any official specs. Paul agreed to start this FAQ on the Semantic Web Activity wiki so that it could be updated in the future.
15:41:58 <satya> Paul: Next agenda item is discussion about subactivity

Paul Groth: Next agenda item is discussion about subactivity

15:42:05 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/447

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/447

15:42:32 <satya> Paul: ISSUE 447, several request to introduce a sub activity relation in the model followed by mailing list discussion

Paul Groth: ISSUE-447, several request to introduce a sub activity relation in the model followed by mailing list discussion

15:43:38 <satya> Paul: It may be a good idea according to some members, but others have reservations that introduction of the new relation will have repurcussions across model and constrains (some of which may have not be considered at all)

Paul Groth: It may be a good idea according to some members, but others have reservations that introduction of the new relation will have repurcussions across model and constrains (some of which may have not be considered at all)

15:43:57 <satya> Paul: One proposed option is use dc partOf relation

Paul Groth: One proposed option is use dc partOf relation

15:44:19 <satya> constrains/constraints

constrains/constraints

15:44:24 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:44:24 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:44:32 <dgarijo> I think we should go for dcterms:hasPart.

Daniel Garijo: I think we should go for dcterms:hasPart.

15:44:35 <satya> Paul: Whether to include or leave out this?

Paul Groth: Whether to include or leave out this?

15:44:41 <zednik> q+

Stephan Zednik: q+

15:44:41 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:44:44 <satya> @Daniel +1

@Daniel +1

15:45:22 <Paolo> I expressed my view on the list -- I'd rather leave it out of the model

Paolo Missier: I expressed my view on the list -- I'd rather leave it out of the model

15:45:34 <pgroth> ack zednik

Paul Groth: ack zednik

15:45:35 <satya> zednik: Can this be included in the best practices document? But not include this in specs

Stephan Zednik: Can this be included in the best practices document? But not include this in specs

15:45:41 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:46:08 <satya> Luc: Daniel please clarify proposed use of dcterms:hasPart

Luc Moreau: Daniel please clarify proposed use of dcterms:hasPart

15:46:20 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:47:12 <satya> dgarijo: Keen to have it in a document, but not in ontology - is there a proposal for a best practices document as it would allow inclusion of some issues currently pending in PROV-O also

Daniel Garijo: Keen to have it in a document, but not in ontology - is there a proposal for a best practices document as it would allow inclusion of some issues currently pending in PROV-O also

15:47:52 <dgarijo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/bestpractices/BestPractices.html

Daniel Garijo: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/bestpractices/BestPractices.html

15:47:52 <Luc> @zednik: should it be an FAQ?

Luc Moreau: @zednik: should it be an FAQ?

15:47:59 <satya> zednik: (answering to Luc) Last F2F discussed creation of best practices document - it will be a note and not a spec

Stephan Zednik: (answering to Luc) Last F2F discussed creation of best practices document - it will be a note and not a spec

15:48:18 <satya> zednik: It will be a kind of FAQ, maybe part of FAQ

Stephan Zednik: It will be a kind of FAQ, maybe part of FAQ

15:48:30 <MacTed> +1 "this is a common need; here's how best to satisfy it with what we've done"

Ted Thibodeau: +1 "this is a common need; here's how best to satisfy it with what we've done"

15:49:17 <Luc> proposed: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice

PROPOSED: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice

15:49:19 <satya> Paul: We have identified the DC document as a best practice document, strongly support a FAQ document

Paul Groth: We have identified the DC document as a best practice document, strongly support a FAQ document

15:49:57 <satya> Paul: FAQ will sidestep the complications associated with a spec, so this FAQ can also be updated

Paul Groth: FAQ will sidestep the complications associated with a spec, so this FAQ can also be updated

15:50:00 <Luc> proposed: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice

PROPOSED: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice

15:50:12 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:50:24 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:50:29 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:50:31 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:50:32 <satya> +1

+1

15:50:34 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:50:34 <TomDN> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

15:50:39 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:50:41 <hook> +1

Hook Hua: +1

15:50:55 <satya> Tim: +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:50:57 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:51:06 <Dong> +1

Trung Huynh: +1

15:51:23 <Luc> accepted: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice

RESOLVED: subactivity relation will not be included in normative documents, but instead would be described in light weight document, such as FAQ/best practice

15:51:51 <satya> Paul: Will setup FAQ that can also be referenced when responding to feedback

Paul Groth: Will setup FAQ that can also be referenced when responding to feedback

15:51:56 <pgroth> action: setup faq

ACTION: setup faq

15:51:56 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - setup

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - setup

15:52:00 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:52:04 <ivan> ack ivan

Ivan Herman: ack ivan

15:52:11 <pgroth> action: pgroth setup faq

ACTION: pgroth setup faq

15:52:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-115 - Setup faq [on Paul Groth - due 2012-09-20].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-115 - Setup faq [on Paul Groth - due 2012-09-20].

15:52:16 <ivan>  http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Main_Page

Ivan Herman: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Main_Page

15:52:16 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:52:18 <pgroth> ack ivan

Paul Groth: ack ivan

15:53:14 <satya> Ivan: There is a SW activity wiki, which can be used after WG formally closes - create a separate section on the wiki that can be continously used

Ivan Herman: There is a SW activity wiki, which can be used after WG formally closes - create a separate section on the wiki that can be continously used

15:53:23 <satya> Paul: Nice idea

Paul Groth: Nice idea

15:53:45 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

15:53:45 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

15:53:49 <pgroth> Topic: Implementation Report

7. Implementation Report

Summary: Paul presented an structure for the implementation report. Stephan has produced an associated questionnaire that allows implementers to easily report their information. The group discussed the need for test cases. The group agreed that example test cases were good but that producing an actual test harness is probably not feasible.

<pgroth> Summary: Paul presented an structure for the implementation report. Stephan has produced an associated questionnaire that allows implementers to easily report their information. The group discussed the need for test cases. The group agreed that example test cases were good but that producing an actual test harness is probably not feasible.
15:53:51 <satya> Paul: Will set up a PROV subsection on SW wiki

Paul Groth: Will set up a PROV subsection on SW wiki

15:53:55 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/reports/prov-implementations.html

Paul Groth: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/reports/prov-implementations.html

15:54:13 <satya> Paul: Thanks to Dong and Stephan to creating the implementation document

Paul Groth: Thanks to Dong and Stephan to creating the implementation document

15:54:45 <satya> Paul: The skeleton of the document mirrors Stephan's questionnaire

Paul Groth: The skeleton of the document mirrors Stephan's questionnaire

15:55:18 <satya> Paul: Reviewing the implementation document

Paul Groth: Reviewing the implementation document

15:57:14 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:57:21 <satya> Paul: Comments/questions about the structure of the implementation document?

Paul Groth: Comments/questions about the structure of the implementation document?

15:57:24 <ivan> (looked fine to me...)

Ivan Herman: (looked fine to me...)

15:58:01 <satya> Tim: Are there instructions to allow responders to add to this document?

Timothy Lebo: Are there instructions to allow responders to add to this document?

15:58:09 <satya> Paul: Part of the questionnaire

Paul Groth: Part of the questionnaire

15:58:29 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:58:38 <satya> zednik: Questionnaire is a spreadsheet so should be easy to map to document

Stephan Zednik: Questionnaire is a spreadsheet so should be easy to map to document

15:59:21 <satya> Paul: Have a question about constraint section, it currently does not have a test case for implementation of the constraints

Paul Groth: Have a question about constraint section, it currently does not have a test case for implementation of the constraints

15:59:48 <satya> Paul: Should there be a test harness for this - concern that this will require significant work

Paul Groth: Should there be a test harness for this - concern that this will require significant work

15:59:50 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:00:06 <ivan> zakim, unmute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me

16:00:06 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should no longer be muted

16:00:08 <satya> Paul: Question is whether it is needed and who will do it?

Paul Groth: Question is whether it is needed and who will do it?

16:00:11 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:00:32 <satya> Ivan: Not sure about test case environment

Ivan Herman: Not sure about test case environment

16:01:08 <satya> Paul: This environment allows testing a set of provenance assertions to be valid or invalid

Paul Groth: This environment allows testing a set of provenance assertions to be valid or invalid

16:01:09 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.818.731.aabb

16:01:40 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.818.731.aacc

16:01:58 <satya> Ivan: Nice to have an environment to make testing easier, but making a complete test environment requires lot of effort so not sure it can be done

Ivan Herman: Nice to have an environment to make testing easier, but making a complete test environment requires lot of effort so not sure it can be done

16:03:00 <satya> Luc: I am implementing a validator and it involves lot of work - tests unification algorithm and requires lot of test cases (excludes temporal constraints)

Luc Moreau: I am implementing a validator and it involves lot of work - tests unification algorithm and requires lot of test cases (excludes temporal constraints)

16:03:35 <satya> Luc: Does not guarantee complete coverage and not sure when a stable state test cases can be shared with rest of WG

Luc Moreau: Does not guarantee complete coverage and not sure when a stable state test cases can be shared with rest of WG

16:04:19 <satya> Luc: So, not sure how the test cases can be re-used by others

Luc Moreau: So, not sure how the test cases can be re-used by others

16:04:44 <satya> Luc: May require development of a common API, so not an easy task

Luc Moreau: May require development of a common API, so not an easy task

16:05:09 <Dong> @zednik PROV-CONSTRAINTS now has 58 in total, I think the questionnaire still uses the constraints from the previous version of the document.

Trung Huynh: @zednik PROV-CONSTRAINTS now has 58 in total, I think the questionnaire still uses the constraints from the previous version of the document.

16:05:23 <satya> @Paul: sorry, I have to leave now can someone take over as scribe

@Paul: sorry, I have to leave now can someone take over as scribe

16:05:29 <pgroth> ok

Paul Groth: ok

16:05:29 <zednik> @dong, thanks I'll look into that

Stephan Zednik: @dong, thanks I'll look into that

16:05:34 <pgroth> can someone scribe?

Paul Groth: can someone scribe?

16:05:43 <dgarijo> I can

Daniel Garijo: I can

16:05:45 <pgroth> thanks

Paul Groth: thanks

16:05:52 <pgroth> scribe: dgarijo

(Scribe set to Daniel Garijo)

16:05:52 <satya> thanks Dani!

Satya Sahoo: thanks Dani!

16:06:10 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

16:06:19 <dgarijo> Ivan: we need test cases when we can infer additional things. If it can be automatized, good.

Ivan Herman: we need test cases when we can infer additional things. If it can be automatized, good.

16:07:03 <dgarijo> Luc: the complete normal form is not necessarily represented in Prov.

Luc Moreau: the complete normal form is not necessarily represented in Prov.

16:07:04 <Zakim> -??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P10

16:07:24 <dgarijo> Ivan: that is a lot of work. This formats may have their own live after the group finishes

Ivan Herman: that is a lot of work. This formats may have their own live after the group finishes

16:08:00 <dgarijo> Paul: even if we divide ourselves, we can't guarantee complete cover

Paul Groth: even if we divide ourselves, we can't guarantee complete cover

16:08:58 <stain> hm, how 10 minuets becomes an hour.. I missed the whole thing!

Stian Soiland-Reyes: hm, how 10 minuets becomes an hour.. I missed the whole thing!

16:09:00 <dgarijo> Ivan: that's different. Test cases are never 100% complete (corner cases not covered). It should be possible to come up with a collection of test cases that the group supports. If not, we have a problem

Ivan Herman: that's different. Test cases are never 100% complete (corner cases not covered). It should be possible to come up with a collection of test cases that the group supports. If not, we have a problem

16:09:30 <stain> is it still going on? Where in the agenda are we?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: is it still going on? Where in the agenda are we?

16:09:45 <dgarijo> ... everybody will have to have his own test cases and be able to report them back to us

... everybody will have to have his own test cases and be able to report them back to us

16:09:54 <dgarijo> @stain: we are discussing the implementation

@stain: we are discussing the implementation

16:09:57 <stephenc> SPARQL working group have a nice vocabulary for defining their test cases.

Stephen Cresswell: SPARQL working group have a nice vocabulary for defining their test cases.

16:10:27 <dgarijo> pgroth: the next thing to do is to find how to define the test cases.

Paul Groth: the next thing to do is to find how to define the test cases.

16:11:06 <dgarijo> Ivan: there are many other groups that have been doing this. It may be worth taking a look

Ivan Herman: there are many other groups that have been doing this. It may be worth taking a look

16:11:19 <Dong> ok, sure

Trung Huynh: ok, sure

16:11:24 <Zakim> +stainPhone

Zakim IRC Bot: +stainPhone

16:11:29 <dgarijo> pgroth: stephen, dong would you take a look at that?

Paul Groth: stephen, dong would you take a look at that?

16:11:34 <dgarijo> stephen: ok

Stephen Cresswell: ok

16:11:41 <dgarijo> pgroth: we are out of time

Paul Groth: we are out of time

16:11:53 <dgarijo> ... we'll catch up online

... we'll catch up online

16:11:59 <Zakim> - +1.315.330.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.315.330.aaaa

16:12:07 <Dong> thanks, bye

Trung Huynh: thanks, bye

16:12:11 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:12:12 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

16:12:13 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:12:14 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:12:14 <Zakim> -TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN

16:12:15 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.818.731.aacc

16:12:15 <Zakim> -??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P2

16:12:18 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:12:20 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

16:12:22 <Zakim> -stainPhone

Zakim IRC Bot: -stainPhone

16:12:26 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:12:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:12:30 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon

16:12:30 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:12:30 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Satya_Sahoo, Luc, +1.315.330.aaaa, Ivan, +1.818.731.aabb, jun, MacTed, TomDN, Samcoppens, dgarijo, +1.818.731.aacc, stainPhone

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Satya_Sahoo, Luc, +1.315.330.aaaa, Ivan, +1.818.731.aabb, jun, MacTed, TomDN, Samcoppens, dgarijo, +1.818.731.aacc, stainPhone

16:12:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:12:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:12:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:12:39 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-actions.rdf :

16:12:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: setup faq [1]

ACTION: setup faq [1]

16:12:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc#T15-51-56

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc#T15-51-56

16:12:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: pgroth setup faq [2]

ACTION: pgroth setup faq [2]

16:12:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc#T15-52-11

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-prov-irc#T15-52-11



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