edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 07 June 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.06.07
Seen
Craig Trim, Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, James Cheney, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Tom De Nies
Regrets
Graham Klyne, Daniel Garijo
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Tom De Nies
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Approved Minutes of the May 31 2012 Telecon link
  2. leave role as currently defined link
Topics
  1. Admin

  2. Definition of role

    The working group had been discussing expanding the applicability of role on the mailing list. No consensus was reached. It was decided in the call to leave the definition as is.

  3. Contextualization

    The recent revision of the DM to deal with bundles introduced the notion of a provenance locator. An issue was raised about it's complexity. To address this issue, a construct of contextualization was introduced. This construct was discussed on the call and some clarifications were introduced. The conclusion was for the main discussion participants (Luc, Simon, Tim) to quickly come to a definition of contextualization to be included in the DM for review by the group.

  4. Collections

    There were some concerns about the notion of completeness to do with collections. Tim proposed a revision to eliminate this notion because of possible concerns around the open world assumption. After discussion, it became clear that the assertion of completeness did not violate the open world assumption. Luc was actioned to add text making this clarification in the DM text.

14:48:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-irc

14:48:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:48:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:48:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:48:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:48:40 <trackbot> Date: 07 June 2012
14:48:44 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:48:44 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

14:49:02 <pgroth> Agenda:http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.06.07
14:49:13 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:49:17 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

14:49:35 <pgroth> Regrets: Graham Klyne, Daniel Garijo
14:49:55 <pgroth> I need a scribe

Paul Groth: I need a scribe

14:49:59 <pgroth> anyone?

Paul Groth: anyone?

14:50:34 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:50:41 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

14:51:56 <pgroth> scribe anyone?

Paul Groth: scribe anyone?

14:54:31 <Zakim> +TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN

14:54:48 <pgroth> tom can you scribe?

Paul Groth: tom can you scribe?

14:55:01 <TomDN> noone signed up?

Tom De Nies: noone signed up?

14:55:05 <TomDN> sure

Tom De Nies: sure

14:55:09 <pgroth> no :-(

Paul Groth: no :-(

14:55:13 <pgroth> thanks

Paul Groth: thanks

14:55:23 <TomDN> np :)

Tom De Nies: np :)

14:55:26 <pgroth> Scribe: Tom De Nies

(Scribe set to Tom De Nies)

14:55:37 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:55:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P5, TomDN

14:55:47 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P5 is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P5 is me

14:55:47 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:57:02 <Zakim> + +1.661.382.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.661.382.aaaa

14:57:24 <Zakim> +Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc

14:58:01 <Zakim> -TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN

14:58:01 <Luc> @paul, we need to draft the f2f2 agenda

Luc Moreau: @paul, we need to draft the f2f2 agenda

14:58:32 <pgroth> @luc: yes. next week I'm "on vacation" visiting parents so will have time

Paul Groth: @luc: yes. next week I'm "on vacation" visiting parents so will have time

14:58:58 <Zakim> +TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN

14:58:58 <Luc> @paul: OK

Luc Moreau: @paul: OK

14:59:07 <TomDN> sorry, phone dropped off for a second there

sorry, phone dropped off for a second there

14:59:49 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

15:00:37 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:00:46 <Zakim> +tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo

15:00:48 <Zakim> + +44.131.467.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.131.467.aabb

15:00:49 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:00:49 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:00:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:00:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:01:04 <SamCoppens> zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN

Sam Coppens: zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN

15:01:09 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it

15:01:09 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me

Zakim, mute me

15:01:09 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should now be muted

15:01:30 <Zakim> +??P30

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30

15:01:48 <Zakim> +??P20

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P20

15:01:58 <Paolo> zakim, ??P20 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P20 is me

15:01:58 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

15:02:08 <stain> I'm in a meeting like GK and dgarijo, but I'll join when/if you come to collection

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I'm in a meeting like GK and dgarijo, but I'll join when/if you come to collection

15:02:17 <pgroth> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:02:23 <stain> and follow the hasProvenanceIn discussion on the chat

Stian Soiland-Reyes: and follow the hasProvenanceIn discussion on the chat

15:02:25 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-05-31

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-05-31

15:02:33 <pgroth> proposed Minutes of the May 31 2012 Telecon

Paul Groth: proposed Minutes of the May 31 2012 Telecon

15:02:38 <TomDN> +1

+1

15:02:42 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:02:44 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:02:46 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:02:48 <jcheney> 0 - missed it

James Cheney: 0 - missed it

15:03:02 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:03:07 <Paolo> 0 -- missed it

Paolo Missier: 0 -- missed it

15:03:11 <Zakim> +??P39

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P39

15:03:27 <KhalidBelhajjame> zakim, ??P39 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P39 is me

15:03:28 <Zakim> +KhalidBelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +KhalidBelhajjame; got it

15:03:31 <pgroth> accepted: Approved Minutes of the May 31 2012 Telecon

RESOLVED: Approved Minutes of the May 31 2012 Telecon

15:03:44 <Zakim> +??P41

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P41

15:04:01 <pgroth> sandro are you there?

Paul Groth: sandro are you there?

15:04:09 <TomDN> pgroth: we confirmed that sandro sent the announcement to the mailing lists, and Graham has reviewed the constraints document

Paul Groth: we confirmed that sandro sent the announcement to the mailing lists, and Graham has reviewed the constraints document

15:04:32 <pgroth> Topic: Definition of role

2. Definition of role

Summary: The working group had been discussing expanding the applicability of role on the mailing list. No consensus was reached. It was decided in the call to leave the definition as is.

<pgroth> Summary: The working group had been discussing expanding the applicability of role on the mailing list. No consensus was reached. It was decided in the call to leave the definition as is.
15:05:05 <TomDN> pgroth: to summarize: we talked last week about expanding the definition of role

Paul Groth: to summarize: we talked last week about expanding the definition of role

15:05:49 <TomDN> ... We tried to come to a revised definition during the week, that included both the object and subject of role

... We tried to come to a revised definition during the week, that included both the object and subject of role

15:06:06 <Zakim> +[GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice]

15:06:24 <satya> Zakim, GVoice is me

Satya Sahoo: Zakim, GVoice is me

15:06:24 <Zakim> +satya; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +satya; got it

15:06:27 <TomDN> ... No apparent consensus was reached

... No apparent consensus was reached

15:06:37 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:06:37 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:06:46 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

15:07:29 <TomDN> smiles: In my email, I wasn't suggesting that we would drop 'role' and just have 'type'.

Simon Miles: In my email, I wasn't suggesting that we would drop 'role' and just have 'type'.

15:07:46 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:07:48 <TomDN> ... I would propose keeping what we had, I liked the definition of role

... I would propose keeping what we had, I liked the definition of role

15:08:06 <TomDN> pgroth: What do you think about expanding the domain of role?

Paul Groth: What do you think about expanding the domain of role?

15:08:38 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:08:41 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:08:49 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:08:56 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

15:08:56 <TomDN> smiles: I don't have a strong objection to it, but I'm not quite sure what it imply

Simon Miles: I don't have a strong objection to it, but I'm not quite sure what it imply

15:09:07 <MacTed> Zakim, mute ??p3

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute ??p3

15:09:07 <Zakim> ??P3 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ??P3 should now be muted

15:09:50 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:09:57 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:10:08 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:10:13 <TomDN> Luc: Simon's suggestion seems good. We could keep the current definition and make sure all documents are compatible with it

Luc Moreau: Simon's suggestion seems good. We could keep the current definition and make sure all documents are compatible with it

15:10:15 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

15:10:42 <TomDN> Luc: Would it cause a problem if you could not use roles in the Dictionary context?

Luc Moreau: Would it cause a problem if you could not use roles in the Dictionary context?

15:10:58 <TomDN> tlebo: I would have to have an extention property

Timothy Lebo: I would have to have an extention property

15:11:50 <Paolo> no objection

Paolo Missier: no objection

15:11:54 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:11:56 <TomDN> pgroth: I think people just wanted to make role a bit more powerful, but were fine with the definition. Is there any objection to leaving role as it is?

Paul Groth: I think people just wanted to make role a bit more powerful, but were fine with the definition. Is there any objection to leaving role as it is?

15:12:04 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:12:11 <Luc> @paul, for avoindance of doubt, can you record a resolution?

Luc Moreau: @paul, for avoindance of doubt, can you record a resolution?

15:12:33 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

15:12:34 <pgroth> proposed: leave role as currently defined

PROPOSED: leave role as currently defined

15:12:37 <KhalidBelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:12:42 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:12:45 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:12:48 <TomDN> +1

+1

15:12:53 <jcheney> 0 - haven't been following but no objection

James Cheney: 0 - haven't been following but no objection

15:12:59 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:13:21 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:13:24 <MacTed> +0

Ted Thibodeau: +0

15:13:31 <CraigTrim> no objection

Craig Trim: no objection

15:13:39 <pgroth> accepted: leave role as currently defined

RESOLVED: leave role as currently defined

15:13:55 <pgroth> Topic: Contextualization

3. Contextualization

Summary: The recent revision of the DM to deal with bundles introduced the notion of a provenance locator. An issue was raised about it's complexity. To address this issue, a construct of contextualization was introduced. This construct was discussed on the call and some clarifications were introduced. The conclusion was for the main discussion participants (Luc, Simon, Tim) to quickly come to a definition of contextualization to be included in the DM for review by the group.

<pgroth> Summary: The recent revision of the DM to deal with bundles introduced the notion of a provenance locator. An issue was raised about it's complexity. To address this issue, a construct of contextualization was introduced. This construct was discussed on the call and some clarifications were introduced. The conclusion was for the main discussion participants (Luc, Simon, Tim) to quickly come to a definition of contextualization to be included in the DM for review by the group.
15:14:19 <TomDN> pgroth: Luc, can you give an overview?

Paul Groth: Luc, can you give an overview?

15:14:44 <TomDN> Luc: About a week ago, GK raised an issue that the provenance locator was too complex.

Luc Moreau: About a week ago, GK raised an issue that the provenance locator was too complex.

15:15:36 <TomDN> ... Reasons: Prov locator included things from the PAQ that would better not be mixed with the DM. THis was solved by removing these from the DM.

... Reasons: Prov locator included things from the PAQ that would better not be mixed with the DM. THis was solved by removing these from the DM.

15:15:49 <pgroth> @sandro are you there?

Paul Groth: @sandro are you there?

15:16:08 <TomDN> ... A second objection was that it seemed as a special case of derivation, and it might be better to use things that we already have.

... A second objection was that it seemed as a special case of derivation, and it might be better to use things that we already have.

15:16:11 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html

Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html

15:16:12 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:16:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, +1.661.382.aaaa, Luc, TomDN (muted), MacTed (muted), tlebo, +44.131.467.aabb, ??P30, Paolo, KhalidBelhajjame, ??P41, satya, ??P3 (muted), Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, +1.661.382.aaaa, Luc, TomDN (muted), MacTed (muted), tlebo, +44.131.467.aabb, ??P30, Paolo, KhalidBelhajjame, ??P41, satya, ??P3 (muted), Curt_Tilmes

15:16:15 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens

15:16:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see satya, jun, zednik, stephenc, CraigTrim, KhalidBelhajjame, smiles, Paolo, SamCoppens, tlebo, Curt, jcheney, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, Luc, dgarijo, MacTed,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see satya, jun, zednik, stephenc, CraigTrim, KhalidBelhajjame, smiles, Paolo, SamCoppens, tlebo, Curt, jcheney, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, Luc, dgarijo, MacTed,

15:16:15 <Zakim> ... stain, trackbot, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: ... stain, trackbot, sandro

15:16:29 <TomDN> ... We looked at this during the weekend, and came up with above.

... We looked at this during the weekend, and came up with above.

15:16:29 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html#term-contextualization

Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html#term-contextualization

15:17:01 <TomDN> ... The idea is that a relation can be introduced that says that some thing is a contextualization of another thing.

... The idea is that a relation can be introduced that says that some thing is a contextualization of another thing.

15:17:24 <TomDN> ... Something that is a contextualization of another presents all aspects of the latter in a given context specified by descriptions found in a bundle.

... Something that is a contextualization of another presents all aspects of the latter in a given context specified by descriptions found in a bundle.

15:17:44 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:17:56 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:18:03 <TomDN> ... Discussion with tim and simon seems to be reaching consensus.

... Discussion with tim and simon seems to be reaching consensus.

15:18:17 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:18:28 <TomDN> ... In time, the provenance locator would disappear form prov DM, and the contextualization remains

... In time, the provenance locator would disappear from prov DM, and the contextualization remains

15:18:37 <TomDN> s/form/from
15:19:15 <TomDN> pgroth: how does this relate to alternate/specialization?

Paul Groth: how does this relate to alternate/specialization?

15:19:48 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:19:56 <TomDN> Luc: difference with specialization is that contextualization looks at the aspects in a given context (bundle)

Luc Moreau: difference with specialization is that contextualization looks at the aspects in a given context (bundle)

15:20:06 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

15:20:25 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:20:33 <TomDN> smiles: At the moment it is a bit ambiguous

Simon Miles: At the moment it is a bit ambiguous

15:21:00 <TomDN> ... I suggest expressing contextualization as a relation between entity and bundle

... I suggest expressing contextualization as a relation between entity and bundle

15:21:20 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:21:30 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Paolo (10%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Paolo (10%)

15:21:30 <Luc> i couldn't understand simon

Luc Moreau: i couldn't understand simon

15:22:25 <TomDN> smiles: I don't have a problem with the current definition of contextualization, but changing the relationshi

Simon Miles: I don't have a problem with the current definition of contextualization, but changing the relationshi

15:22:40 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:22:43 <pgroth> ack Paolo

Paul Groth: ack Paolo

15:22:53 <TomDN> ... to an entity-bundle relationship might help distinguishing it from specialization

... to an entity-bundle relationship might help distinguishing it from specialization

15:23:57 <tlebo> contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to a "nonlocal" entity.

Timothy Lebo: contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to a "nonlocal" entity.

15:24:10 <TomDN> paolo: Is this as in importing provenance from a different bundle?

Paolo Missier: Is this as in importing provenance from a different bundle?

15:24:20 <pgroth> ack paolo

Paul Groth: ack paolo

15:24:36 <TomDN> ... saying that "everything I say in that bundle about this entity, is also true in this bundle"

... saying that "everything I say in that bundle about this entity, is also true in this bundle"

15:24:42 <Luc> bundle ex:run1     activity(ex:a1, 2011-11-16T16:00:00,2011-11-16T17:00:00)  //duration: 1hour     wasAssociatedWith(ex:a1,ex:Bob,[prov:role="controller"]) endBundle

Luc Moreau: bundle ex:run1 activity(ex:a1, 2011-11-16T16:00:00,2011-11-16T17:00:00) //duration: 1hour wasAssociatedWith(ex:a1,ex:Bob,[prov:role="controller"]) endBundle

15:24:59 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html

Paul Groth: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html

15:25:44 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:25:51 <TomDN> Luc: I think so (see example)

Luc Moreau: I think so (see example)

15:26:07 <TomDN> Paolo: this is close to what I had in mind

Paolo Missier: this is close to what I had in mind

15:26:32 <tlebo> contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to (the just-contextualized specialization of) the  "nonlocal" entity.

Timothy Lebo: contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to (the just-contextualized specialization of) the "nonlocal" entity.

15:27:02 <TomDN> Luc: it is not really "importing"

Luc Moreau: it is not really "importing"

15:27:25 <TomDN> ... That is an implementation choice, but it is not specified anywhere.

... That is an implementation choice, but it is not specified anywhere.

15:27:39 <Paolo> ack

Paolo Missier: ack

15:27:46 <Paolo> q?

Paolo Missier: q?

15:27:47 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

15:28:17 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

15:28:24 <TomDN> smiles: In the current DM, we say that a bundle is a set of descriptions. There's no reason for that set not to be contradictory with other sets.

Simon Miles: In the current DM, we say that a bundle is a set of descriptions. There's no reason for that set not to be contradictory with other sets.

15:29:00 <TomDN> ... My concern is that with this contextualization, we seem to suggest that there is some sort of coherence.

... My concern is that with this contextualization, we seem to suggest that there is some sort of coherence.

15:29:55 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:30:09 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:30:24 <tlebo> q+ to propose the definition: contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to (the just-contextualized specialization of) the "nonlocal" entity.

Timothy Lebo: q+ to propose the definition: contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to (the just-contextualized specialization of) the "nonlocal" entity.

15:30:29 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:30:31 <TomDN> Luc: It's not our aim to imply any consistency

Luc Moreau: It's not our aim to imply any consistency

15:30:45 <TomDN> smiles: OK, but then we should specify this clearly.

Simon Miles: OK, but then we should specify this clearly.

15:30:46 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:30:47 <Zakim> -??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P12

15:31:09 <TomDN> tlebo: proposes the above definition.

Timothy Lebo: proposes the above definition.

15:31:19 <tlebo> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

15:32:13 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:32:28 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

15:32:31 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:32:42 <TomDN> pgroth: 1. How core is it to the model? 2. Are we close to a definition?

Paul Groth: 1. How core is it to the model? 2. Are we close to a definition?

15:33:45 <TomDN> Luc: There are examples of where we need this construct. And currently there is no way to assert them.

Luc Moreau: There are examples of where we need this construct. And currently there is no way to assert them.

15:33:53 <tlebo> BTW, my definition is paired up with the example that I focus on: tool:analysis01 {     tool:Bob1          prov:specializationOf [               a prov:Entity;  prov:ContextualizedEntity;               prov:identifier  ex:Bob;               prov:inContext ex:run1;         ];     . }

Timothy Lebo: BTW, my definition is paired up with the example that I focus on: tool:analysis01 {    tool:Bob1        prov:specializationOf [              a prov:Entity;  prov:ContextualizedEntity;              prov:identifier  ex:Bob;              prov:inContext ex:run1;        ];    . }

15:34:25 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

15:34:26 <TomDN> ... I like Tim's definition, and can agree with Simon's suggestion. We hope to converge within a few days.

... I like Tim's definition, and can agree with Simon's suggestion. We hope to converge within a few days.

15:34:45 <tlebo> bundles don't change.

Timothy Lebo: bundles don't change.

15:34:48 <TomDN> satya: What happens if the bundle is changed after a contextualization?

Satya Sahoo: What happens if the bundle is changed after a contextualization?

15:35:00 <TomDN> ... Does this propagate?

... Does this propagate?

15:35:21 <tlebo> +1 @luc, if the bundle changes, then you have a new bundle.

Timothy Lebo: +1 @luc, if the bundle changes, then you have a new bundle.

15:35:24 <TomDN> Luc: If a bundle changes, it is another bundle

Luc Moreau: If a bundle changes, it is another bundle

15:36:03 <TomDN> satya: So there is no way that we will link those "updated" bundles?

Satya Sahoo: So there is no way that we will link those "updated" bundles?

15:36:09 <tlebo> @satya, link a revised bundle to it's predecessor via PROV constructs specializationOf and wasRevisedFrom .

Timothy Lebo: @satya, link a revised bundle to it's predecessor via PROV constructs specializationOf and wasRevisedFrom .

15:36:17 <TomDN> ... (as is often done in the Semantic Web)

... (as is often done in the Semantic Web)

15:36:33 <tlebo> bundles are not buckets, they are sets of assertions.

Timothy Lebo: bundles are not buckets, they are sets of assertions.

15:36:59 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:37:01 <tlebo> we have ways to link the bundles -- existing PROV constructs.

Timothy Lebo: we have ways to link the bundles -- existing PROV constructs.

15:37:23 <TomDN> @satya: indeed, the assertions don't change, just the bundle

@satya: indeed, the assertions don't change, just the bundle

15:38:03 <TomDN> Luc: See Tim's comment.

Luc Moreau: See Tim's comment.

15:38:22 <TomDN> ... I don't think we changed the semantics with this construct.

... I don't think we changed the semantics with this construct.

15:38:44 <TomDN> ... If you change a set of assertions, you need to give it a different name.

... If you change a set of assertions, you need to give it a different name.

15:38:55 <satya> agent(tool:ratedBob1, [perf:rating="good"])

Satya Sahoo: agent(tool:ratedBob1, [perf:rating="good"])

15:39:46 <TomDN> Luc:  It seems the concern is rather to the notion of bundle, than to contextualization?

Luc Moreau: It seems the concern is rather to the notion of bundle, than to contextualization?

15:39:49 <TomDN> satya: yes

Satya Sahoo: yes

15:40:25 <tlebo> @satya where is "bundle consistency" proclaimed in PROV? bundles are just sets of assertions, regardless of consistency.

Timothy Lebo: @satya where is "bundle consistency" proclaimed in PROV? bundles are just sets of assertions, regardless of consistency.

15:41:08 <tlebo> bundling assertions does not imply consistency.

Timothy Lebo: bundling assertions does not imply consistency.

15:41:36 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:41:37 <TomDN> satya: Since it is included as an example with the definition, it seems to someone reading the definition without knowing the discussion, that we are implying some semantics

Satya Sahoo: Since it is included as an example with the definition, it seems to someone reading the definition without knowing the discussion, that we are implying some semantics

15:42:24 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:42:24 <TomDN> pgroth: Since there seems to be some convergence to this construct, we should try to work toward a definition everyone agrees with via the mailing list

Paul Groth: Since there seems to be some convergence to this construct, we should try to work toward a definition everyone agrees with via the mailing list

15:42:38 <pgroth> Topic: Collections

4. Collections

Summary: There were some concerns about the notion of completeness to do with collections. Tim proposed a revision to eliminate this notion because of possible concerns around the open world assumption. After discussion, it became clear that the assertion of completeness did not violate the open world assumption. Luc was actioned to add text making this clarification in the DM text.

<pgroth> Summary: There were some concerns about the notion of completeness to do with collections. Tim proposed a revision to eliminate this notion because of possible concerns around the open world assumption. After discussion, it became clear that the assertion of completeness did not violate the open world assumption. Luc was actioned to add text making this clarification in the DM text.
15:42:41 <Paolo> (I'm afraid I am a lot more confused about this now than I was 1/2 hour ago...)

Paolo Missier: (I'm afraid I am a lot more confused about this now than I was 1/2 hour ago...)

15:43:10 <Zakim> + +7.894.70.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +7.894.70.aacc

15:43:11 <TomDN> pgroth: Tim proposed some changes to Collections

Paul Groth: Tim proposed some changes to Collections

15:43:22 <TomDN> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Jun/0133.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Jun/0133.html

15:44:10 <stainPhone> Zakim, +7.894.70.aacc is stain

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, +7.894.70.aacc is stain

15:44:19 <TomDN> tlebo: only changes that affect the DM:

Timothy Lebo: only changes that affect the DM:

15:44:21 <Zakim> +stain; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain; got it

15:44:29 <TomDN> ... - the notion of complete collection

... - the notion of complete collection

15:44:32 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:44:58 <TomDN> ... This optional attribute would be removed and changed to a domain extention

... This optional attribute would be removed and changed to a domain extention

15:45:19 <TomDN> ... This is based on several concerns received about 'complete' Collections

... This is based on several concerns received about 'complete' Collections

15:45:36 <TomDN> ... in an open world

... in an open world

15:46:06 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:47:02 <TomDN> Luc: Something more fundamental needs to be discussed...

Luc Moreau: Something more fundamental needs to be discussed...

15:47:28 <TomDN> ... Currently, we have a notion of empty Collection/Dictionary

... Currently, we have a notion of empty Collection/Dictionary

15:47:36 <TomDN> ... and a notion of insertion

... and a notion of insertion

15:47:37 <Zakim> -satya

Zakim IRC Bot: -satya

15:48:01 <Zakim> +[GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice]

15:48:17 <TomDN> ... If you start with an empty Dictionary, and insert something, you have full knowledge about the Dictionary

... If you start with an empty Dictionary, and insert something, you have full knowledge about the Dictionary

15:48:27 <satya> Zakim, [GVoice] is satya

Satya Sahoo: Zakim, [GVoice] is satya

15:48:27 <Zakim> +satya; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +satya; got it

15:48:30 <TomDN> ... Dito for removal

... Dito for removal

15:48:31 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:49:03 <Zakim> -??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P12

15:49:35 <TomDN> ... What we call a 'complete membership' when you are inserting into an empty Dictionary.

... What we call a 'complete membership' when you are inserting into an empty Dictionary.

15:50:17 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:50:18 <TomDN> ... The normal memberOf was added to allow insertion into an unspecified Dictionary

... The normal memberOf was added to allow insertion into an unspecified Dictionary

15:50:22 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:50:42 <tlebo> FWIW, my work on Dictionary was centering around the example at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership and http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl

Timothy Lebo: FWIW, my work on Dictionary was centering around the example at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership and http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl

15:51:02 <TomDN> pgroth: There's a difference between asserting that something is closed, and the thing actually being closed.

Paul Groth: There's a difference between asserting that something is closed, and the thing actually being closed.

15:51:14 <tlebo> +1 pgroth

Timothy Lebo: +1 pgroth

15:51:15 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:51:30 <stainPhone> q+

Stian Soiland-Reyes: q+

15:51:39 <pgroth> ack stainPhone

Paul Groth: ack stainPhone

15:52:13 <tlebo> I'm using Paul's former to agree with keeping "completeness" in (asserting that something is closed). I'm ignoring his latter (the thing actually being closed).

Timothy Lebo: I'm using Paul's former to agree with keeping "completeness" in (asserting that something is closed). I'm ignoring his latter (the thing actually being closed).

15:53:07 <TomDN> (could you put your question on IRC stain? (sorry, missed it))

(could you put your question on IRC stain? (sorry, missed it))

15:53:11 <stainPhone> Ok

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Ok

15:53:51 <TomDN> Luc: what the model allows it that if you inserted e1 in d1, and that lead to d2.

Luc Moreau: what the model allows it that if you inserted e1 in d1, and that lead to d2.

15:54:08 <TomDN> ... you can still have that you insert something into d1, and that becomes d3

... you can still have that you insert something into d1, and that becomes d3

15:54:27 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:55:09 <TomDN> pgroth: What is the conflict of what Tim proposes and the current DM?

Paul Groth: What is the conflict of what Tim proposes and the current DM?

15:55:20 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:55:22 <stainPhone> I asked if dictionary insertions and removals are strictly functional, or if you could have both wasInsertedFrom(a,b,(k1,v1)) and second wasInsertedFrom(a,b,(k2,v2)) with additional key value pair

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I asked if dictionary insertions and removals are strictly functional, or if you could have both wasInsertedFrom(a,b,(k1,v1)) and second wasInsertedFrom(a,b,(k2,v2)) with additional key value pair

15:55:33 <stainPhone> Luc said that no, only one assertion. (right?)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Luc said that no, only one assertion. (right?)

15:55:35 <TomDN> Luc: not much. If we drop the attribute, we can still assert everything. We have the same expressivity

Luc Moreau: not much. If we drop the attribute, we can still assert everything. We have the same expressivity

15:57:08 <KhalidBelhajjame> Yes Paolo, I remember the initial discussion

Khalid Belhajjame: Yes Paolo, I remember the initial discussion

15:57:14 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:57:18 <pgroth> ack Paolo

Paul Groth: ack Paolo

15:57:23 <tlebo> FWIW, I've catalyzed this proposal for a variety of people. I've personally withdrawn my objections, but haven't heard others continuing to object.

Timothy Lebo: FWIW, I've catalyzed this proposal for a variety of people. I've personally withdrawn my objections, but haven't heard others continuing to object.

15:57:53 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:57:58 <TomDN> Paolo: This seems to go back to a previous discussion we had about the Open World assumption, and why we introduced the notion of completeness in the first place

Paolo Missier: This seems to go back to a previous discussion we had about the Open World assumption, and why we introduced the notion of completeness in the first place

15:58:03 <Zakim> -satya

Zakim IRC Bot: -satya

15:58:10 <tlebo> yes, so I don't see anybody objecting.

Timothy Lebo: yes, so I don't see anybody objecting.

15:58:16 <stainPhone> Who are they?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Who are they?

15:58:18 <Luc> who was objecting?

Luc Moreau: who was objecting?

15:58:33 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:58:38 <TomDN> pgroth: does anyone object to leaving it as it is now?

Paul Groth: does anyone object to leaving it as it is now?

15:58:46 <TomDN> (silence)

(silence)

15:58:47 <stainPhone> I'll pay them a visit! ;)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I'll pay them a visit! ;)

15:59:08 <Zakim> +[GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice]

15:59:27 <Zakim> -??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P3

15:59:28 <TomDN> pgroth: Maybe we should just put somewhere: "You can assert completeness, but you can never guarantee it"

Paul Groth: Maybe we should just put somewhere: "You can assert completeness, but you can never guarantee it"

15:59:40 <tlebo> +1 paul, we're asserting it and not guaranteeing it. This is what resolved my objection.

Timothy Lebo: +1 paul, we're asserting it and not guaranteeing it. This is what resolved my objection.

15:59:41 <pgroth> action: Luc to add some text around collections to clarify completness

ACTION: Luc to add some text around collections to clarify completness

15:59:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-91 - Add some text around collections to clarify completness [on Luc Moreau - due 2012-06-14].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-91 - Add some text around collections to clarify completness [on Luc Moreau - due 2012-06-14].

15:59:46 <TomDN> Luc: will add some text for this.

Luc Moreau: will add some text for this.

16:00:12 <Paolo> well can you guarantee anything in provenance that you can express??

Paolo Missier: well can you guarantee anything in provenance that you can express??

16:00:13 <KhalidBelhajjame> bye

Khalid Belhajjame: bye

16:00:15 <Zakim> -??P30

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P30

16:00:19 <Zakim> -KhalidBelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -KhalidBelhajjame

16:00:21 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:00:23 <Zakim> - +44.131.467.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +44.131.467.aabb

16:00:24 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

16:00:24 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

16:00:26 <TomDN> no prob :)

no prob :)

16:00:27 <pgroth> thanks tom

Paul Groth: thanks tom

16:00:28 <Zakim> -stain

Zakim IRC Bot: -stain

16:00:32 <Zakim> - +1.661.382.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.661.382.aaaa

16:00:33 <SamCoppens> bye

Sam Coppens: bye

16:00:33 <Zakim> -[GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[GVoice]

16:00:38 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

16:00:40 <Zakim> -??P41

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P41

16:00:41 <tlebo> bye!

Timothy Lebo: bye!

16:00:42 <TomDN> @ Paolo: id say no, then it'd be called Trust

@ Paolo: id say no, then it'd be called Trust

16:00:43 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:00:44 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:00:45 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:00:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:00:52 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon

16:00:52 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:00:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TomDN, pgroth, +1.661.382.aaaa, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed, SamCoppens, Paolo, KhalidBelhajjame, satya, stain,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been TomDN, pgroth, +1.661.382.aaaa, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed, SamCoppens, Paolo, KhalidBelhajjame, satya, stain,

16:00:55 <Zakim> ... [GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: ... [GVoice]

16:01:00 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me

Zakim, unmute me

16:01:00 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should no longer be muted

16:01:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:01:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:01:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:01:01 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-actions.rdf :

16:01:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Luc to add some text around collections to clarify completness [1]

ACTION: Luc to add some text around collections to clarify completness [1]

16:01:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-irc#T15-59-41

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-irc#T15-59-41



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