edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 26 April 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.26
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, James McCusker, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Olaf Hartig, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Tom De Nies
Regrets
Paul Groth, James Cheney, Paolo Missier, Satya Sahoo, Olaf Hartig, Simon Miles
Chair
Luc Moreau
Scribe
Tom De Nies
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. to accept minutes of 2012-04-19 teleconference link
  2. not to specify any other form of collection in PROV link
Topics
  1. admin

    Last week's teleconference minutes were approved.

  2. PAQ

    Reviews of the PAQ document are all in, and generally positive. The group felt that the editors should make minor changes and proceed with release of the document.

  3. Dublin Core Best Practice

    Daniel will produce a timetable and share it with the group next week (ACTION-79).

  4. Release of Documents

    It was checked that progress was being made on all documents approved for release. Prov-dm, -n, -primer are staged and ready to go. Prov-constraints should be ready by Friday and prov-o by Monday, and passed on to the Webmaster. The group is invited to think about external readers who could review some/all documents. Three blogs will be prepared to announce the release of documents (ACTION-80, 81, 82). Any other volunteer welcome!

  5. Definition of Alternate and Specialization

    During the last two weeks, Jim, Tom, and James have been busy refining the definitions of Alternate and Specialization. They have reached a compromise that they feel is good, preserving the spirit of the data model (in particular, a simple definition of entity) and compatible with the semantics as currently understood. The group is invited to review these definitions. A vote will take place next week, to incorporate these definitions into the documents, or to drop these concepts from documents on recommendation track.

  6. Collections

    It was explained that following last week's call, the term 'dictionary' is used for the kind of collection defined in prov-dm/prov-o, while the term 'collection' is used for the abstract notion of collection, without specific reference to its structure. We discussed whether other forms of collections were desirable. It was felt that defining other types of collections (e.g. sets or multi-sets) would be feature creep. The group supported a resolution not to specify any other form of collection in PROV.

14:52:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-prov-irc

14:52:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:52:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:52:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:52:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:52:30 <trackbot> Date: 26 April 2012
14:52:33 <Luc_> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:52:33 <Zakim> ok, Luc_; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc_; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

14:52:47 <Luc_> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.26
14:53:03 <Luc_> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:53:12 <Luc_> Regrets: Paul Groth, James Cheney, Paolo Missier, Satya Sahoo, Olaf Hartig, Simon Miles
14:53:26 <Luc_> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

14:53:35 <Luc_> zakim, who is here?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is here?

14:53:35 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has not yet started, Luc_

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has not yet started, Luc_

14:53:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc_, MacTed, Luc, stain, trackbot, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc_, MacTed, Luc, stain, trackbot, sandro

14:58:49 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:58:52 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

14:58:56 <Zakim> +TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN

14:58:58 <Zakim> -??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P21

14:58:58 <Zakim> -TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN

14:58:58 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

14:58:58 <Zakim> +TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN

14:58:58 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

14:59:10 <Luc_> zakim, ??P21 is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, ??P21 is me

14:59:10 <Zakim> +Luc_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc_; got it

14:59:28 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

14:59:36 <stain> hi

Stian Soiland-Reyes: hi

15:00:09 <stain> I can scribe, but only for 15 minutes - would need backup scribe

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I can scribe, but only for 15 minutes - would need backup scribe

15:00:11 <Luc_> we don't have a scribe. Could someone  volunteer?

Luc Moreau: we don't have a scribe. Could someone volunteer?

15:00:47 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Tom De Nies: Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:00:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, TomDN, ??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, TomDN, ??P8

15:00:57 <stain> Zakim: ??P8 is me
15:01:11 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[OpenLink]

15:01:12 <stain> Zakim, ??P8 is me

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, ??P8 is me

15:01:12 <Zakim> +stain; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain; got it

15:01:19 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

15:01:19 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:01:23 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:01:23 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:01:33 <TomDN> Zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN

Tom De Nies: Zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN

15:01:33 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it

15:01:54 <TomDN> I can do it (I hope)

Tom De Nies: I can do it (I hope)

15:02:07 <Zakim> + +1.720.708.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.720.708.aaaa

15:02:12 <stain> just type what people say,  prefix with say Luc:

Stian Soiland-Reyes: just type what people say, prefix with say Luc:

15:02:14 <Luc_> scribe: TomDN

(Scribe set to Tom De Nies)

15:02:20 <stain> and don't be afraid to ask when something is unclear :)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: and don't be afraid to ask when something is unclear :)

15:02:32 <TomDN> ok, got it :)

ok, got it :)

15:02:34 <Zakim> +tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo

15:02:34 <stain> Luc_: just do like Stian says, type on the IRC

Luc Moreau: just do like Stian says, type on the IRC [ Scribe Assist by Stian Soiland-Reyes ]

15:02:41 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:02:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, TomDN, stain, MacTed (muted), +1.720.708.aaaa, tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, TomDN, stain, MacTed (muted), +1.720.708.aaaa, tlebo

15:02:44 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens

15:02:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, TomDN, Curt, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc_, MacTed, Luc, stain, trackbot, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, TomDN, Curt, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc_, MacTed, Luc, stain, trackbot, sandro

15:02:47 <Luc_> topic: admin

1. admin

Summary: Last week's teleconference minutes were approved.

<Luc_>Summary: Last week's teleconference minutes were approved.
15:03:27 <Zakim> +??P40

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P40

15:03:28 <TomDN> Luc: any other business?

Luc Moreau: any other business?

15:03:35 <Luc_> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-04-19

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-04-19

15:03:39 <GK> Oops, I'm late.  Still emailing.  Setting up now.

Graham Klyne: Oops, I'm late. Still emailing. Setting up now.

15:03:43 <Luc_> Proposed: to accept minutes of 2012-04-19 teleconference

PROPOSED: to accept minutes of 2012-04-19 teleconference

15:03:49 <TomDN> +1

+1

15:03:50 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:03:57 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:04:02 <stain> 0 (not there)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: 0 (not there)

15:04:08 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:04:15 <jun> 0(not there too)

Jun Zhao: 0(not there too)

15:04:23 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:04:32 <Luc_> Resolved: to accept minutes of 2012-04-19 teleconference

RESOLVED: to accept minutes of 2012-04-19 teleconference

15:04:33 <GK> (not there)

Graham Klyne: (not there)

15:04:52 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

15:05:14 <Zakim> +??P29

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P29

15:05:16 <Zakim> +??P43

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P43

15:05:41 <TomDN> Luc: are actions 73 and 74 complete?

Luc Moreau: are actions 73 and 74 complete?

15:05:43 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P43 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P43 is me

15:05:48 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:05:57 <dgarijo> Sorry to be late, +1 to the  minutes of last week.

Daniel Garijo: Sorry to be late, +1 to the minutes of last week.

15:06:03 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P14 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P14 is me

15:06:03 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:06:07 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/73

Stian Soiland-Reyes: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/73

15:06:07 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/73

Stian Soiland-Reyes: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/73

15:06:10 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/74

Stian Soiland-Reyes: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/74

15:06:13 <Zakim> - +1.720.708.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.720.708.aaaa

15:06:34 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

15:06:53 <dgarijo> yeah this are the actions I set a while ago I think.

Daniel Garijo: yeah this are the actions I set a while ago I think.

15:06:58 <Luc_> Topic: PAQ

2. PAQ

Summary: Reviews of the PAQ document are all in, and generally positive. The group felt that the editors should make minor changes and proceed with release of the document.

<Luc_>Summary: Reviews of the PAQ document are all in, and generally positive. The group felt that the editors should make minor changes and proceed with release of the document.
15:06:59 <dgarijo> *these

Daniel Garijo: *these

15:07:17 <Zakim> +??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24

15:07:18 <TomDN> Luc: paul told me all reviews for PAQ were received

Luc Moreau: paul told me all reviews for PAQ were received

15:07:20 <stain> Jun - yours is about http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/305

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Jun - yours is about http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/305

15:07:30 <TomDN> Luc: there are 2 options

Luc Moreau: there are 2 options

15:07:32 <tlebo> @jun, I think that is closed.

Timothy Lebo: @jun, I think that is closed.

15:07:35 <GK> q+ to comment that most outstanding comments have been addressed

Graham Klyne: q+ to comment that most outstanding comments have been addressed

15:07:54 <TomDN> ... release now, or make changes first and postpone release

... release now, or make changes first and postpone release

15:07:55 <Luc_> ack GK

Luc Moreau: ack GK

15:07:55 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to comment that most outstanding comments have been addressed

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to comment that most outstanding comments have been addressed

15:08:09 <TomDN> GK: been busy today going through comments

Graham Klyne: been busy today going through comments

15:08:16 <tlebo> @jun, I closed your action.

Timothy Lebo: @jun, I closed your action.

15:08:21 <TomDN> ... most issues are resolved

... most issues are resolved

15:08:32 <TomDN> ... 2 remaining

... 2 remaining

15:08:51 <TomDN> Luc: other reviewers on the call?

Luc Moreau: other reviewers on the call?

15:09:05 <TomDN> SamCoppens: early release is ok for me

Sam Coppens: early release is ok for me

15:09:38 <TomDN> Curt: satisfied with responses to his review

Curt Tilmes: satisfied with responses to his review

15:09:57 <Luc_> guidance to editors: address minor issues and aim at early release

Luc Moreau: guidance to editors: address minor issues and aim at early release

15:10:09 <TomDN> Luc: Now we aim for early release, and address minor issues

Luc Moreau: Now we aim for early release, and address minor issues

15:10:10 <Luc_> topic: Dublin Core Best Practice

3. Dublin Core Best Practice

Summary: Daniel will produce a timetable and share it with the group next week (ACTION-79).

<Luc_> Summary: Daniel will produce a timetable and share it with the group next week (ACTION-79).
15:10:39 <TomDN> Luc: wanted to have an update on progress

Luc Moreau: wanted to have an update on progress

15:11:28 <jun> @tlebo, thanks! I agree

Jun Zhao: @tlebo, thanks! I agree

15:11:36 <TomDN> dgarijo: discussed it with Kai. Some delay due to other priorities. Can continue now

Daniel Garijo: discussed it with Kai. Some delay due to other priorities. Can continue now

15:11:52 <TomDN> Luc: Can timetable be suggested?

Luc Moreau: Can timetable be suggested?

15:12:03 <Luc_> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:12:12 <TomDN> dgarijo: Should be possible to make next week

Daniel Garijo: Should be possible to make next week

15:12:15 <Luc_> topic: Release of Documents

4. Release of Documents

Summary: It was checked that progress was being made on all documents approved for release. Prov-dm, -n, -primer are staged and ready to go. Prov-constraints should be ready by Friday and prov-o by Monday, and passed on to the Webmaster. The group is invited to think about external readers who could review some/all documents. Three blogs will be prepared to announce the release of documents (ACTION-80, 81, 82). Any other volunteer welcome!

<Luc_> Summary: It was checked that progress was being made on all documents approved for release. Prov-dm, -n, -primer are staged and ready to go. Prov-constraints should be ready by Friday and prov-o by Monday, and passed on to the Webmaster.  The group is invited to think about external readers who could review some/all documents. Three blogs will be prepared to announce the release of documents (ACTION-80, 81, 82). Any other volunteer welcome!
15:13:00 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:13:10 <TomDN> Luc: Prov-DM Prov-N and Primer are in mercurial and ready to be handed over

Luc Moreau: Prov-DM Prov-N and Primer are in mercurial and ready to be handed over

15:13:14 <sandro> (sorry I'm late; previous meeting ran late, debugging mercurial.)

Sandro Hawke: (sorry I'm late; previous meeting ran late, debugging mercurial.)

15:13:33 <TomDN> ... Some final changes are made to CONSTRAINTS document, should be done by friday

... Some final changes are made to CONSTRAINTS document, should be done by friday

15:13:54 <TomDN> ... All documents should be ready for webmaster by the end of the week.

... All documents should be ready for webmaster by the end of the week.

15:14:08 <TomDN> ... some issues with PROV-O.

... some issues with PROV-O.

15:14:19 <stain> I did not fix the validation things that seemed to be fixed by Tim's automated-thingie-my-bob

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I did not fix the validation things that seemed to be caused by Tim's automated-thingie-my-bob

15:14:24 <stain> s/fixed/caused/
15:14:40 <TomDN> tlebo: Should be possible to get document ready by deadline on Monday

Timothy Lebo: Should be possible to get document ready by deadline on Monday

15:15:17 <TomDN> Luc: reviewers were happy with release as such. No blocking issues

Luc Moreau: reviewers were happy with release as such. No blocking issues

15:15:44 <TomDN> tlebo: We are making the document ready validation-wise

Timothy Lebo: We are making the document ready validation-wise

15:15:55 <TomDN> Luc: if necessary, the webmaster can help with this as well

Luc Moreau: if necessary, the webmaster can help with this as well

15:16:13 <TomDN> tlebo: will look into it this afternoon.

Timothy Lebo: will look into it this afternoon.

15:16:27 <Zakim> -stain

Zakim IRC Bot: -stain

15:16:52 <TomDN> Luc: reason for synchronized release was to get external feedback. Would be good to identify the people we want to approach for this.

Luc Moreau: reason for synchronized release was to get external feedback. Would be good to identify the people we want to approach for this.

15:18:38 <Curt> Hook Hua, NASA/JPL will be a good reviewer for the whole package

Curt Tilmes: Hook Hua, NASA/JPL will be a good reviewer for the whole package

15:19:13 <TomDN> Luc: invites everyone to think about potential reviewers.

Luc Moreau: invites everyone to think about potential reviewers.

15:19:20 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

15:19:39 <TomDN> ... not necessary for them to review all documents, some of them is also ok

... not necessary for them to review all documents, some of them is also ok

15:19:44 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

15:19:47 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:20:08 <Luc_> ack kh

Luc Moreau: ack kh

15:20:25 <TomDN> Luc: Anyone here who would like to write a blog about changes since last release?

Luc Moreau: Anyone here who would like to write a blog about changes since last release?

15:20:32 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:20:43 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P8 (53%), khalidbelhajjame (95%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P8 (53%), khalidbelhajjame (95%)

15:21:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute ??p8

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute ??p8

15:21:08 <Zakim> ??P8 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ??P8 should now be muted

15:21:11 <TomDN> sorry, I didnt get that answer due to noise

sorry, I didnt get that answer due to noise

15:21:23 <MacTed> sorry, ??p8 ... the echo was just too much

Ted Thibodeau: sorry, ??p8 ... the echo was just too much

15:21:35 <TomDN> kh: workshop is end of may, 28th of may

Khalid Belhajjame: workshop is end of may, 28th of may

15:21:59 <stain2> Zakim, who is on the call?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, who is on the call?

15:21:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, TomDN, MacTed (muted), tlebo, ??P40, dgarijo, ??P29, khalidbelhajjame, ??P3, ??P24, Sandro, ??P10, ??P8 (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, TomDN, MacTed (muted), tlebo, ??P40, dgarijo, ??P29, khalidbelhajjame, ??P3, ??P24, Sandro, ??P10, ??P8 (muted)

15:22:01 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens

15:22:09 <stain2> I can do a blog post

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I can do a blog post

15:23:11 <TomDN> Jun: If necessary, I can write something about Prov-O

Jun Zhao: If necessary, I can write something about Prov-O

15:24:00 <jun> @stain2, that will be good to work together on the ontology post

Jun Zhao: @stain2, that will be good to work together on the ontology post

15:24:08 <TomDN> stain2: can work together with Jun on this

Stian Soiland-Reyes: can work together with Jun on this

15:24:26 <Luc_> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:24:41 <TomDN> Luc: specifications will be out next thursday, so time for the blog should be shortly after that

Luc Moreau: specifications will be out next thursday, so time for the blog should be shortly after that

15:24:45 <Luc_> topic: Definition of Alternate and Specialization

5. Definition of Alternate and Specialization

Summary: During the last two weeks, Jim, Tom, and James have been busy refining the definitions of Alternate and Specialization. They have reached a compromise that they feel is good, preserving the spirit of the data model (in particular, a simple definition of entity) and compatible with the semantics as currently understood. The group is invited to review these definitions. A vote will take place next week, to incorporate these definitions into the documents, or to drop these concepts from documents on recommendation track.

<Luc_> Summary: During the last two weeks, Jim, Tom, and James have been busy refining the definitions of Alternate and Specialization. They have reached a compromise that they feel is good, preserving the spirit of the data model (in particular, a simple definition of entity) and compatible with the semantics as currently understood. The group is invited to review these definitions. A vote will take place next week, to incorporate these definitions into the documents, or to drop these concepts from documents on recommendation track.
15:25:12 <TomDN> Luc: there were many discussions about alt/spec.

Luc Moreau: there were many discussions about alt/spec.

15:25:31 <TomDN> ... Solution should have support of the whole WG.

... Solution should have support of the whole WG.

15:26:12 <TomDN> ... If no consensus can be had, we follow the agreed procedure, and drop them from specification, and add them as notes

... If no consensus can be had, we follow the agreed procedure, and drop them from specification, and add them as notes

15:26:33 <Luc_> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/SpecializationAlternateDefinitions#Definitions_13_.28refinement_of_12.29

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/SpecializationAlternateDefinitions#Definitions_13_.28refinement_of_12.29

15:26:37 <Zakim> -??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P10

15:26:47 <TomDN> ... TomDN, Jim, james and chairs discussed this via email/wiki

... TomDN, Jim, james and chairs discussed this via email/wiki

15:27:36 <TomDN> ... Definition 13 is something they are happy with, and ask for support from the group. Vote will be next week

... Definition 13 is something they are happy with, and ask for support from the group. Vote will be next week

15:28:12 <TomDN> ... hopefully this will close the issue. If not, we will discuss more, but they will be dropped from the documents and added as notes.

... hopefully this will close the issue. If not, we will discuss more, but they will be dropped from the documents and added as notes.

15:28:33 <TomDN> JimMcCusker: We went through a number of iterations

James McCusker: We went through a number of iterations

15:28:47 <TomDN> ... trying to define clearly what an entity is

... trying to define clearly what an entity is

15:29:12 <TomDN> ... we agreed that an entity is something we use to talk about things in a particular way.

... we agreed that an entity is something we use to talk about things in a particular way.

15:29:13 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

15:29:28 <TomDN> ... explains definitions.

... explains definitions.

15:29:39 <stain> Zakim, ??P2 is me

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, ??P2 is me

15:29:39 <Zakim> +stain; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain; got it

15:29:51 <stain> Zakim, ??P2 is stain

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, ??P2 is stain

15:29:51 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as stain, stain

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P2 as stain, stain

15:30:02 <TomDN> ... We leave things open for alternates to be very distinct ways of looking at the same thing.

... We leave things open for alternates to be very distinct ways of looking at the same thing.

15:31:13 <TomDN> ... Special attention paid to lifetime of entities.

... Special attention paid to lifetime of entities.

15:31:41 <GK> exists general => exists specialization?  Other way round?

Graham Klyne: exists general => exists specialization? Other way round?

15:32:16 <GK> AHh.. I get it...

Graham Klyne: AHh.. I get it...

15:33:56 <JimMcCusker> An entity is a physical, digital, conceptual, or other kind of thing with some fixed aspects. Entities may be real or imaginary. (same as above)

James McCusker: An entity is a physical, digital, conceptual, or other kind of thing with some fixed aspects. Entities may be real or imaginary. (same as above)

15:34:04 <JimMcCusker> Two alternate entities present aspects of the same thing. These aspects may be the same or different, and the alternate entities may or may not overlap in time. (changed has to presents; rearranged & added time)

James McCusker: Two alternate entities present aspects of the same thing. These aspects may be the same or different, and the alternate entities may or may not overlap in time. (changed has to presents; rearranged & added time)

15:34:12 <JimMcCusker> An entity that is a specialization of another entity shares all aspects of the latter, and additionally presents more specific aspects of the same thing as the latter. In particular, the lifetime of the specialized entity contains that of any specialization. (changed has to presents; rearranged & added time)

James McCusker: An entity that is a specialization of another entity shares all aspects of the latter, and additionally presents more specific aspects of the same thing as the latter. In particular, the lifetime of the specialized entity contains that of any specialization. (changed has to presents; rearranged & added time)

15:34:44 <TomDN> TomDN: Pros of the definitions are: they avoid discussion about reflexivity/transitivity like we had before. Also they require minimal changes to existing documents

Tom De Nies: Pros of the definitions are: they avoid discussion about reflexivity/transitivity like we had before. Also they require minimal changes to existing documents

15:34:56 <TomDN> Luc: They are a good compromise.

Luc Moreau: They are a good compromise.

15:34:59 <Luc_> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:35:07 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:35:22 <stain> I wA

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I wA

15:35:54 <TomDN> kh: main difference is in definition is in alternateOf. More specifically, the overlapping/non-overlapping intervals.

Khalid Belhajjame: main difference is in definition is in alternateOf. More specifically, the overlapping/non-overlapping intervals.

15:36:02 <Curt> I like emphasis on "aspects".  Key to understanding will be good examples...

Curt Tilmes: I like emphasis on "aspects". Key to understanding will be good examples...

15:36:14 <TomDN> ... Concerns that "aspects" will be confusing.

... Concerns that "aspects" will be confusing.

15:36:25 <Luc_> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:36:28 <Luc_> ack kh

Luc Moreau: ack kh

15:36:44 <TomDN> JimMcCusker: We settled on aspects because it's the most efficient way to talk about everything an entity can be

James McCusker: We settled on aspects because it's the most efficient way to talk about everything an entity can be

15:36:55 <stain> Wander slightly what is the meaning of alternate , first line says entity is a thing, second  that entity a aspect

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Wander slightly what is the meaning of alternate , first line says entity is a thing, second that entity a aspect

15:37:04 <TomDN> ... It's  not an exclusive view, but also not a fixed set of attributes

... It's not an exclusive view, but also not a fixed set of attributes

15:38:01 <TomDN> ... the meaning is that of the natural language meaning of aspects. No special definition required.

... the meaning is that of the natural language meaning of aspects. No special definition required.

15:38:21 <Luc_> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:38:46 <TomDN> kh: Why was it necessary to relax the definition of alternate to non-overlapping intervals.

Khalid Belhajjame: Why was it necessary to relax the definition of alternate to non-overlapping intervals.

15:39:15 <Luc_> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:39:19 <TomDN> Luc: this is to accomodate examples like the "customer in chair at 6pm or 7pm" one

Luc Moreau: this is to accomodate examples like the "customer in chair at 6pm or 7pm" one

15:39:45 <TomDN> Luc: Vote will be next week

Luc Moreau: Vote will be next week

15:39:52 <Luc_> topic: Collections

6. Collections

Summary: It was explained that following last week's call, the term 'dictionary' is used for the kind of collection defined in prov-dm/prov-o, while the term 'collection' is used for the abstract notion of collection, without specific reference to its structure. We discussed whether other forms of collections were desirable. It was felt that defining other types of collections (e.g. sets or multi-sets) would be feature creep. The group supported a resolution not to specify any other form of collection in PROV.

<Luc_> Summary: It was explained that following last week's call, the term 'dictionary' is used for the kind of collection defined in prov-dm/prov-o, while the term 'collection' is used for the abstract notion of collection, without specific reference to its structure.  We discussed whether other forms of collections were desirable. It was felt that defining other types of collections (e.g. sets or multi-sets)  would be feature creep. The group supported a resolution not to specify any other form of collection in PROV.
15:40:37 <TomDN> Luc: Update on current status: Collections are now called Dictionaries in the DM

Luc Moreau: Update on current status: Collections are now called Dictionaries in the DM

15:40:51 <khalidbelhajjame> @Luc, yes

Khalid Belhajjame: @Luc, yes

15:41:06 <TomDN> ... Changes are made to prov-o document as well.

... Changes are made to prov-o document as well.

15:41:22 <stain> There might be a few Collections hanging about still :)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: There might be a few Collections hanging about still :)

15:41:28 <JimMcCusker> I need to drop off, thanks all!

James McCusker: I need to drop off, thanks all!

15:41:29 <TomDN> Jim: Acknowledges that these changes are being made today

Timothy Lebo: Acknowledges that these changes are being made today

15:41:46 <tlebo> ( http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/prov-o#description-collections still needs to be updated to reflect the name change)

Timothy Lebo: ( http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/prov-o#description-collections still needs to be updated to reflect the name change)

15:41:53 <TomDN> Luc: Do we want another, concrete kind of collection in the model?

Luc Moreau: Do we want another, concrete kind of collection in the model?

15:41:55 <JimMcCusker> s/Jim/Tim
15:42:08 <Luc_> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:42:12 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:42:18 <Zakim> -??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P3

15:42:38 <TomDN> kh: One way to try to answer this is to look what kind of provenance is required.

Khalid Belhajjame: One way to try to answer this is to look what kind of provenance is required.

15:42:48 <TomDN> ... do we need order, duplicates, ... ?

... do we need order, duplicates, ... ?

15:43:24 <TomDN> kh: Dictionary as it is now is very general. Can be mapped to most possible collections when required

Khalid Belhajjame: Dictionary as it is now is very general. Can be mapped to most possible collections when required

15:43:41 <TomDN> ... So most cases will be covered already.

... So most cases will be covered already.

15:43:53 <tlebo> q+ to say that "Collections" have always been defined as "Dictionaries", so adding anything other than a Dictionary is feature creep. Leave Collections as the hallow superclass.

Timothy Lebo: q+ to say that "Collections" have always been defined as "Dictionaries", so adding anything other than a Dictionary is feature creep. Leave Collections as the hallow superclass.

15:44:00 <Luc_> ack kha

Luc Moreau: ack kha

15:44:07 <TomDN> ... As they are now, dictionaries are very expressive, which is great.

... As they are now, dictionaries are very expressive, which is great.

15:44:37 <tlebo> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

15:44:57 <TomDN> tlebo: Collections actually always were Dictionaries, except for the name.

Timothy Lebo: Collections actually always were Dictionaries, except for the name.

15:45:38 <TomDN> ... adding more features would be feature-kreeped

... adding more features would be feature-creep

15:45:48 <TomDN> (spelling of that last one? )

(spelling of that last one? )

15:45:56 <Luc_> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:46:05 <GK> (I'm staying silent for now, as my earlier email seems to have struck a nerve and I'm considering my response.)

Graham Klyne: (I'm staying silent for now, as my earlier email seems to have struck a nerve and I'm considering my response.)

15:46:06 <stain> Creep

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Creep

15:46:17 <TomDN> Jun: agrees, adding more would make the model look more like a datastructure

Jun Zhao: agrees, adding more would make the model look more like a datastructure

15:46:41 <TomDN> s/kreeped/creep
15:47:04 <TomDN> GK: Still not completely convinced that we need Collections. Simpler is better.

Graham Klyne: Still not completely convinced that we need Collections. Simpler is better.

15:47:05 <Luc_> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:47:05 <tlebo> @gk, you mean Dictionaries?

Timothy Lebo: @gk, you mean Dictionaries?

15:47:33 <tlebo> @gk @luc thx

Timothy Lebo: @gk @luc thx

15:47:44 <GK> (I mean any kind of collection)

Graham Klyne: (I mean any kind of collection)

15:47:50 <Luc_> Proposed: not to specify any other form of collection in PROV

PROPOSED: not to specify any other form of collection in PROV

15:47:58 <TomDN> GK: Any kind of collection/dictionary

Graham Klyne: Any kind of collection/dictionary

15:48:13 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:48:16 <jun> yes

Jun Zhao: yes

15:48:20 <stain> +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1

15:48:22 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:48:24 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:48:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 (except if we find a case that justifies coming up with another kind of collections)

Khalid Belhajjame: +1 (except if we find a case that justifies coming up with another kind of collections)

15:48:29 <TomDN> +1

+1

15:48:35 <MacTed> +0

Ted Thibodeau: +0

15:48:38 <sandro> +0

Sandro Hawke: +0

15:48:53 <GK> (abstain)

Graham Klyne: (abstain)

15:49:10 <Luc_> ACCEPTED: not to specify any other form of collection in PROV

RESOLVED: not to specify any other form of collection in PROV

15:49:24 <Curt> (I'm fine with just dictionary, but I do think there is some merit for 'set'..)

Curt Tilmes: (I'm fine with just dictionary, but I do think there is some merit for 'set'..)

15:49:36 <Luc_> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:49:48 <tlebo> bye!

Timothy Lebo: bye!

15:49:51 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

15:49:52 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

15:49:53 <Zakim> -??P40

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P40

15:49:54 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

15:49:55 <TomDN> Luc: If evidence should present itself to add more kind of collections, issue could be reopened. But for now, closed

Luc Moreau: If evidence should present itself to add more kind of collections, issue could be reopened. But for now, closed

15:49:56 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

15:50:00 <zednik> bye

Stephan Zednik: bye

15:50:01 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

15:50:03 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

15:50:04 <stain> Set is done easily with URI as keys

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Set is done easily with URI as keys

15:50:07 <Zakim> -??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P24

15:50:09 <Zakim> -??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P8

15:50:10 <Zakim> -stain

Zakim IRC Bot: -stain

15:50:13 <TomDN> bye

bye

15:50:18 <Zakim> -TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN

15:50:35 <Luc_> rrsagent, set log public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, set log public

15:50:46 <Luc_> rrsagent, draft minutes

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, draft minutes

15:50:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-prov-minutes.html Luc_

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-prov-minutes.html Luc_

15:50:55 <Luc_> trackbot, end telcon

Luc Moreau: trackbot, end telcon

15:50:55 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

15:50:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TomDN, Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, stain, MacTed, SamCoppens, +1.720.708.aaaa, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, dgarijo, Sandro, stain

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been TomDN, Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, stain, MacTed, SamCoppens, +1.720.708.aaaa, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, dgarijo, Sandro, stain

15:51:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

15:51:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-prov-minutes.html trackbot

15:51:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

15:51:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items

15:51:05 <Zakim> -Luc_

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc_



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