edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 12 April 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.12
Seen
Christine Runnegar, Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephen Cresswell, Timothy Lebo, Tom De Nies
Regrets
Paul Groth
Chair
Luc Moreau
Scribe
James Cheney
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Stick to the timetable, make minor changes, vote for formal release on 19th link
Topics
  1. Admin

    The minutes were approved. Open actions are due on Monday and should be discussed in the PROV-O telecon.

  2. PAQ

    A new draft of PAQ is available. Curt, Olaf, Sam, Tim and Luc agreed to review it, mostly by around April 20. Review questions are listed in the agenda.

  3. Word from the chairs

    Many detailed reviews are in. Some documents are ready to go, while others have significant problems. The strategy agreed at the F2F meeting for keeping to the timetable was reviewed.

  4. Release of documents

    The reviews and readiness for release of the main documents was summarized. PROV-O and PROV-PRIMER were generally agreed to be ready for release. PROV-N is also mostly ready, but some issues have been identified and will be worked on. The three reviews of PROV-DM-CONSTRAINTS by Graham, James and Tim identified a number of problems which block release. The reviews of PROV-DM were mixed, and there are some blocking issues. Two options were discussed: (A) revising the documents for synchronized release next week, or (B) delaying until challenging issues are resolved. The options were discussed, along with process issues concerning last call, and the group supported option A.

  5. Challenging issues

    Remaining challenging issues were discussed.

    1. PROV-DM-CONSTRAINTS

      James will help edit PROV-DM-CONSTRAINTS in advance of release, incorporating feedback from Graham and Tim.

    2. PROV-N

      PROV-N was mostly agreed to be ready to go, but would benefit from linking to allow naviagtion of the grammar. There are tools to turn YACC grammars into HTML with appropriate hyperlinks. Luc and Sandro will look into using existing tools.

    3. PROV-DM

      Many challenging issues remain in PROV-DM. The discussion addressed how to make progress on them without (mostly) slipping into technical discussion of the merits of different approaches.

      1. Specialization/alternate

        Specialization and alternate lack agreed informal definitions. Tim nominated Jim McCusker to formulate a proposal, and James and/or Tom de Nies may also discuss. The goal is to develop a natural language definition, agreed properties, and examples that are all consistent and that reflect the consensus.

      2. Responsibility

        One criticism of PROV-DM is the overloading of the term "responsibility" for both "association" and "delegation". Also, it may be counterintuitive to say that software agents can be "responsible". Issues should be raised to discuss and formulate a proposal.

      3. Collections

        The need for, and generality of, collections has been questioned in reviews. Several WG members expressed support since there are many colections on the Web and if PROV does not provide a standard way of describing the provenance of collections then people will invent lots of different ways. On the other hand, it is not yet clear that collections are important enough to be an integral part of PROV, since the same argument could be made about a lot of other data structures. Jun and Satya are to be assigned actions to come up with examples of limitations of the current proposal.

      4. Accounts

        Work on accounts has been delayed until after the release, Tim and Luc plan to look at it after release

      5. Invalidation/destruction

        Paul and Tim plan to discuss and develop a proposal for the invalidation/destruction event after the release

14:38:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-prov-irc

14:38:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:38:13 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:38:13 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes

14:38:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:38:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:38:15 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:38:15 <trackbot> Date: 12 April 2012
14:38:25 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.12
14:38:38 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:38:47 <Luc> Regrets: Paul Groth
14:39:00 <Luc> Scribe: James Cheney

(Scribe set to James Cheney)

14:39:07 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

14:39:17 <Luc> TOPIC: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: The minutes were approved. Open actions are due on Monday and should be discussed in the PROV-O telecon.

<jcheney> Summary: The minutes were approved.  Open actions are due on Monday and should be discussed in the PROV-O telecon.
14:54:31 <tdenies> tdenies (Tom De Nies) has joined #prov

(No events recorded for 15 minutes)

Tom De Nies: tdenies (Tom De Nies) has joined #prov

14:55:29 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:55:37 <Zakim> + +329331aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aaaa

14:56:17 <tdenies> Zakim, +329331aaaa is me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, +329331aaaa is me

14:56:17 <Zakim> +tdenies; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tdenies; got it

14:56:29 <tdenies> Zakim, mute me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, mute me

14:56:29 <Zakim> sorry, tdenies, muting is not permitted when only one person is present

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tdenies, muting is not permitted when only one person is present

14:58:22 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

14:58:57 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.238.059.aabb

14:59:10 <tdenies> Zakim, mute me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, mute me

14:59:10 <Zakim> tdenies should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: tdenies should now be muted

14:59:12 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aabb is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, +44.238.059.aabb is me

14:59:13 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

15:00:06 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9

15:00:27 <Zakim> +[ISI]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[ISI]

15:00:49 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

15:00:57 <bvillazo> bvillazo (Daniel Garijo) has joined #prov

Daniel Garijo: bvillazo (Daniel Garijo) has joined #prov

15:01:00 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see tdenies (muted), Curt_Tilmes, Luc, ??P9, [ISI], ??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tdenies (muted), Curt_Tilmes, Luc, ??P9, [ISI], ??P14

15:01:07 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aacc

15:01:16 <Zakim> -??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P14

15:01:24 <lebot> zakim, who is on the phone?

Timothy Lebo: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see tdenies (muted), Curt_Tilmes, Luc, ??P9, [ISI], +1.315.330.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tdenies (muted), Curt_Tilmes, Luc, ??P9, [ISI], +1.315.330.aacc

15:01:26 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

15:01:28 <Zakim> +??P19

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19

15:01:31 <lebot> zakim, I am aacc

Timothy Lebo: zakim, I am aacc

15:01:31 <Zakim> +lebot; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +lebot; got it

15:01:35 <Zakim> +??P18

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18

15:01:37 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

15:01:42 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:43 <jcheney> zakim, ??p14 isme

zakim, ??p14 isme

15:01:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see tdenies (muted), Curt_Tilmes, Luc, ??P9, [ISI], lebot, ??P17, ??P19, ??P18, ??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tdenies (muted), Curt_Tilmes, Luc, ??P9, [ISI], lebot, ??P17, ??P19, ??P18, ??P14

15:01:46 <jcheney> zakim, ??p14 is me

zakim, ??p14 is me

15:01:47 <SamCoppens> zakim, SamCoppens is with tdenies

Sam Coppens: zakim, SamCoppens is with tdenies

15:01:50 <Zakim> I don't understand '??p14 isme', jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??p14 isme', jcheney

15:01:52 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:01:55 <bvillazo> Zakim, ??P19 is probably me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P19 is probably me

15:01:56 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it

15:02:00 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

15:02:03 <Zakim> +bvillazo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bvillazo; got it

15:02:04 <jun> zakim, ??P21 is me

Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P21 is me

15:02:11 <Zakim> +jun; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it

15:02:48 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:02:49 <jcheney> Luc: Minutes of the April 05 2012 Telecon

Luc Moreau: Minutes of the April 05 2012 Telecon

15:02:55 <Zakim> +??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24

15:03:16 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-04-05

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-04-05

15:03:28 <lebot> +0 did not attend.

Timothy Lebo: +0 did not attend.

15:03:30 <jcheney> +1

+1

15:03:31 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:03:32 <tdenies> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

15:03:32 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:03:33 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:03:34 <bvillazo> +0 (I didn't attend)

Daniel Garijo: +0 (I didn't attend)

15:03:36 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:03:37 <christine> +0 did not attend

Christine Runnegar: +0 did not attend

15:03:39 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:03:55 <jcheney> Approved minutes of the April 05 2012 Telecon

Approved minutes of the April 05 2012 Telecon

15:04:39 <jcheney> Luc: open actions

Luc Moreau: open actions

15:05:06 <jcheney> ... Six actions due on the 16th, to be reviewed at prov-o telecon

... Six actions due on the 16th, to be reviewed at prov-o telecon

15:05:12 <Luc> Topic: PAQ

2. PAQ

Summary: A new draft of PAQ is available. Curt, Olaf, Sam, Tim and Luc agreed to review it, mostly by around April 20. Review questions are listed in the agenda.

<jcheney> Summary: A new draft of PAQ is available.  Curt, Olaf, Sam, Tim and Luc agreed to review it, mostly by around April 20.  Review questions are listed in the agenda.
15:05:16 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

15:05:25 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html

Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html

15:05:32 <jcheney> Luc: New draft available

Luc Moreau: New draft available

15:05:53 <jcheney> ... needs reviewers

... needs reviewers

15:06:06 <lebot> When is the review due?

Timothy Lebo: When is the review due?

15:06:39 <Curt> I'll review PAQ

Curt Tilmes: I'll review PAQ

15:06:42 <jun> Olaf said via email that he could do it

Jun Zhao: Olaf said via email that he could do it

15:06:43 <SamCoppens> I can

Sam Coppens: I can

15:06:46 <Curt> Olaf also volunteered on mailing list

Curt Tilmes: Olaf also volunteered on mailing list

15:07:21 <Luc> reviewers Curt, Olaf, Sam, Tim(*), Luc(*)

Luc Moreau: reviewers Curt, Olaf, Sam, Tim(*), Luc(*)

15:07:36 <tdenies> Zakim, unmute me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, unmute me

15:07:36 <Zakim> tdenies should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: tdenies should no longer be muted

15:08:16 <jcheney> ... due April 20th tentatively

... due April 20th tentatively

15:08:38 <jcheney> ... Three questions for reviewers

... Three questions for reviewers

15:08:52 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:08:56 <jcheney> ... (see agenda) http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.12#PAQ

... (see agenda) http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.12#PAQ

15:09:02 <Zakim> +??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34

15:09:14 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P34 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P34 is me

15:09:14 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:09:16 <jcheney> Topic: Word from the chairs

3. Word from the chairs

Summary: Many detailed reviews are in. Some documents are ready to go, while others have significant problems. The strategy agreed at the F2F meeting for keeping to the timetable was reviewed.

<jcheney> Summary: Many detailed reviews are in.  Some documents are ready to go, while others have significant problems.  The strategy agreed at the F2F meeting for keeping to the timetable was reviewed.
15:09:46 <jcheney> Luc: Lots of detailed reviews are in, some blocking issues identified

Luc Moreau: Lots of detailed reviews are in, some blocking issues identified

15:09:46 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-02-02#resolution_1

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-02-02#resolution_1

15:09:57 <Luc> The strategy is to be time-driven along the proposed time table [1]. In case of slippage, the issue(s) causing slippage will be a candidate for removal. [1]http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2Intro#Revisited_Timetable

Luc Moreau: The strategy is to be time-driven along the proposed time table [1]. In case of slippage, the issue(s) causing slippage will be a candidate for removal. [1]http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F2Intro#Revisited_Timetable

15:10:02 <jcheney> ... Strategy from f2f meeting

... Strategy from f2f meeting

15:11:47 <jcheney> sandro: timetable important, should keep it updated w.r.t. reality

Sandro Hawke: timetable important, should keep it updated w.r.t. reality

15:12:08 <jcheney> Luc: last PROV-O release was in December 2011, need to update now

Luc Moreau: last PROV-O release was in December 2011, need to update now

15:12:33 <jcheney> ... had agreed on synchronized release

... had agreed on synchronized release

15:12:42 <jcheney> ... better for showing progress and getting feedback

... better for showing progress and getting feedback

15:13:12 <Zakim> +??P36

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36

15:13:29 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:13:45 <jcheney> ... comments?

... comments?

15:14:02 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:14:06 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

15:14:12 <pgroth> sorry

Paul Groth: sorry

15:14:17 <Luc> topic: Release of documents

4. Release of documents

Summary: The reviews and readiness for release of the main documents was summarized. PROV-O and PROV-PRIMER were generally agreed to be ready for release. PROV-N is also mostly ready, but some issues have been identified and will be worked on. The three reviews of PROV-DM-CONSTRAINTS by Graham, James and Tim identified a number of problems which block release. The reviews of PROV-DM were mixed, and there are some blocking issues. Two options were discussed: (A) revising the documents for synchronized release next week, or (B) delaying until challenging issues are resolved. The options were discussed, along with process issues concerning last call, and the group supported option A.

<jcheney> Summary: The reviews and readiness for release of the main documents was summarized.  PROV-O and PROV-PRIMER were generally agreed to be ready for release.  PROV-N is also mostly ready, but some issues have been identified and will be worked on.  The three reviews of PROV-DM-CONSTRAINTS by Graham, James and Tim identified a number of problems which block release.  The reviews of PROV-DM were mixed, and there are some blocking issues.  Two options were discussed: (A) revising the documents for synchronized release next week, or (B) delaying until challenging issues are resolved.  The options were discussed, along with process issues concerning last call, and the group supported option A.
15:14:34 <pgroth> zakim, who is on the call?

Paul Groth: zakim, who is on the call?

15:14:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see tdenies, Curt_Tilmes, Luc, ??P9, [ISI], lebot, ??P17, bvillazo, christine, jcheney, jun, Sandro, ??P24, Satya_Sahoo, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tdenies, Curt_Tilmes, Luc, ??P9, [ISI], lebot, ??P17, bvillazo, christine, jcheney, jun, Sandro, ??P24, Satya_Sahoo, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth

15:14:40 <Zakim> tdenies has tdenies, SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: tdenies has tdenies, SamCoppens

15:14:43 <jcheney> Luc: Had identified reviewers.  Most reviews are in now

Luc Moreau: Had identified reviewers. Most reviews are in now

15:14:46 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P36 is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P36 is me

15:14:46 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

15:14:54 <jcheney> ... any pending reviews?

... any pending reviews?

15:15:13 <jcheney> smiles: Christine may be reviewing primer

Simon Miles: Christine may be reviewing primer

15:16:06 <jcheney> christine: Will review if helpful

Christine Runnegar: Will review if helpful

15:16:42 <jcheney> Luc: MacTed's reviews not in - seems not to be on the call

Luc Moreau: MacTed's reviews not in - seems not to be on the call

15:16:51 <lebot> @macted, are you planning to review provo?

Timothy Lebo: @macted, are you planning to review provo?

15:16:51 <jcheney> ... overall recommendations:

... overall recommendations:

15:17:06 <jcheney> primer, prov-o: ready to release

primer, prov-o: ready to release

15:17:07 <pgroth> sorry I was late... did we get reviews for the paq

Paul Groth: sorry I was late... did we get reviews for the paq

15:17:20 <jun> @pgroth, yes we did

Jun Zhao: @pgroth, yes we did

15:17:21 <pgroth> reviewers for the paq?

Paul Groth: reviewers for the paq?

15:17:24 <jcheney> ... prov-n: mostly yes, but some issues raised by simon to be addressed

... prov-n: mostly yes, but some issues raised by simon to be addressed

15:17:28 <pgroth> @jun thanks

Paul Groth: @jun thanks

15:17:33 <jcheney> ... prov-dm-constraints: no

... prov-dm-constraints: no

15:17:48 <jcheney> ... prov-dm: mixed reviews, some blocking issues

... prov-dm: mixed reviews, some blocking issues

15:18:08 <jcheney> ... options: A. release early

... options: A. release early

15:18:43 <jcheney> ... vote on 19th, benefit: external feedback

... vote on 19th, benefit: external feedback

15:18:55 <jcheney> ... in parallel, start work on remaining issues

... in parallel, start work on remaining issues

15:19:21 <jcheney> ... option B. delay release, so that we tackle issues prior to last call

... option B. delay release, so that we tackle issues prior to last call

15:19:34 <jcheney> ... unclear how long release will be delayed

... unclear how long release will be delayed

15:19:49 <jcheney> ... won't get feedback

... won't get feedback

15:20:58 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:21:01 <jcheney> ... want to take vote on these

... want to take vote on these

15:21:11 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:21:40 <Luc> ack smi

Luc Moreau: ack smi

15:21:52 <jcheney> q+

q+

15:22:47 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:22:52 <Luc> ack jc

Luc Moreau: ack jc

15:23:27 <bvillazo> I agree with Simon: it would be useful to see if external feedback also agrees on the issues we already have for releasing the documents.

Daniel Garijo: I agree with Simon: it would be useful to see if external feedback also agrees on the issues we already have for releasing the documents.

15:23:47 <jcheney> jcheney: confirm we want to release synchronously.

James Cheney: confirm we want to release synchronously.

15:23:59 <jcheney> ... in what order do we decide what to drop (if anything)

... in what order do we decide what to drop (if anything)

15:24:07 <lebot> q+ let's go for A; my "yes-ish" for DM is not a show stopper, and my constraints "No" can be addressed with some meta-discourse and section renaming. We've been baking this iteration for long enough.

Timothy Lebo: q+ let's go for A; my "yes-ish" for DM is not a show stopper, and my constraints "No" can be addressed with some meta-discourse and section renaming. We've been baking this iteration for long enough.

15:24:21 <jcheney> Luc: plan to address concerns and release what we have after a week, not remove things by next week

Luc Moreau: plan to address concerns and release what we have after a week, not remove things by next week

15:24:30 <jcheney> ... any dropping will happen after the release

... any dropping will happen after the release

15:24:32 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:24:45 <lebot> q+ to say let's go for A; my "yes-ish" for DM is not a show stopper, and my constraints "No" can be addressed with some meta-discourse and section renaming. We've been baking this iteration for long enough.

Timothy Lebo: q+ to say let's go for A; my "yes-ish" for DM is not a show stopper, and my constraints "No" can be addressed with some meta-discourse and section renaming. We've been baking this iteration for long enough.

15:25:05 <jcheney> jcheney: then we will decide what to drop by last call release

James Cheney: then we will decide what to drop by last call release

15:25:30 <jcheney> pgroth: we can change until last call

Paul Groth: we can change until last call

15:25:54 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:25:58 <pgroth> thanks sandro

Paul Groth: thanks sandro

15:26:07 <jcheney> sandro: can change after last call but changes should be motivated by external review

Sandro Hawke: can change after last call but changes should be motivated by external review

15:26:14 <jcheney> ... any group input should happen before lc

... any group input should happen before lc

15:26:23 <pgroth> material change

Paul Groth: material change

15:26:37 <jcheney> Luc: no change?

Luc Moreau: no change?

15:26:59 <pgroth> it's key to get the ontology right for example

Paul Groth: it's key to get the ontology right for example

15:27:01 <jcheney> sandro: improving text is fine, but changes that break implementations are not, and require reverting to last call

Sandro Hawke: improving text is fine, but changes that break implementations are not, and require reverting to last call

15:27:06 <pgroth> before last call

Paul Groth: before last call

15:27:27 <jcheney> Luc: with several documents, what happens to others?

Luc Moreau: with several documents, what happens to others?

15:27:30 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:27:33 <jcheney> sandro: can be separated if we want

Sandro Hawke: can be separated if we want

15:27:53 <jcheney> lebot: recommend A, have been working on this for some time and external feedback needed

Timothy Lebo: recommend A, have been working on this for some time and external feedback needed

15:28:00 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:28:04 <Luc> ack lebot

Luc Moreau: ack lebot

15:28:04 <Zakim> lebot, you wanted to say let's go for A; my "yes-ish" for DM is not a show stopper, and my constraints "No" can be addressed with some meta-discourse and section renaming. We've

Zakim IRC Bot: lebot, you wanted to say let's go for A; my "yes-ish" for DM is not a show stopper, and my constraints "No" can be addressed with some meta-discourse and section renaming. We've

15:28:08 <Zakim> ... been baking this iteration for long enough.

Zakim IRC Bot: ... been baking this iteration for long enough.

15:28:25 <jcheney> Luc: any argument in favor of option b?

Luc Moreau: any argument in favor of option b?

15:28:34 <Luc> proposed: Stick to the timetable, make minor changes, vote for formal release on 19th

PROPOSED: Stick to the timetable, make minor changes, vote for formal release on 19th

15:28:39 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:28:43 <lebot> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:28:44 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:28:45 <jcheney> +1

+1

15:28:45 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:28:45 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:28:46 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:28:47 <tdenies> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

15:28:48 <bvillazo> +1 to A

Daniel Garijo: +1 to A

15:29:00 <SamCoppens> +1 for A

Sam Coppens: +1 for A

15:29:21 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:29:40 <Luc> accepted: Stick to the timetable, make minor changes, vote for formal release on 19th

RESOLVED: Stick to the timetable, make minor changes, vote for formal release on 19th

15:30:02 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:31:25 <Luc> ack smiles

Luc Moreau: ack smiles

15:31:36 <Luc> Topic: Challenging issues

5. Challenging issues

Summary: Remaining challenging issues were discussed.

<jcheney> Summary: Remaining challenging issues were discussed.
15:32:12 <jcheney> Luc: Outstanding problems for discussion/decisions

Luc Moreau: Outstanding problems for discussion/decisions

15:32:19 <jcheney> subtopic: PROV-DM-CONSTRAINTS

5.1. PROV-DM-CONSTRAINTS

Summary: James will help edit PROV-DM-CONSTRAINTS in advance of release, incorporating feedback from Graham and Tim.

<jcheney> Summary: James will help edit PROV-DM-CONSTRAINTS in advance of release, incorporating feedback from Graham and Tim.
15:32:57 <jcheney> ... Reviews identified consistent problems

... Reviews identified consistent problems

15:33:26 <jcheney> ... jcheney to help

... jcheney to help

15:34:04 <jcheney> lebot: biggest point: organization & navigation poor

Timothy Lebo: biggest point: organization & navigation poor

15:34:28 <jcheney> ... suggested naming/consistency and navigation improvements

... suggested naming/consistency and navigation improvements

15:34:52 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:34:58 <jcheney> Subtopic: PROV-N

5.2. PROV-N

Summary: PROV-N was mostly agreed to be ready to go, but would benefit from linking to allow naviagtion of the grammar. There are tools to turn YACC grammars into HTML with appropriate hyperlinks. Luc and Sandro will look into using existing tools.

<jcheney> Summary: PROV-N was mostly agreed to be ready to go, but would benefit from linking to allow naviagtion of the grammar.  There are tools to turn YACC grammars into HTML with appropriate hyperlinks.  Luc and Sandro will look into using existing tools.
15:35:19 <jcheney> ... request from Tim to navigate the productions

... request from Tim to navigate the productions

15:35:27 <jcheney> ... there is a tool that generates html from YACC

... there is a tool that generates html from YACC

15:35:43 <jcheney> ... would like to see if anyone can write such a grammar

... would like to see if anyone can write such a grammar

15:35:53 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:36:01 <jcheney> (I've used yacc, but is it that hard?)

(I've used yacc, but is it that hard?)

15:36:12 <Paolo> I missed the lastpart of your sentence

Paolo Missier: I missed the lastpart of your sentence

15:36:17 <jcheney> ok

ok

15:36:23 <lebot> @luc, sorry, I'm YACC-impaired :-(

Timothy Lebo: @luc, sorry, I'm YACC-impaired :-(

15:36:35 <jcheney> I can probably write something if someone else can maintain it

I can probably write something if someone else can maintain it

15:36:57 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:37:01 <stephenc> Interested in helping -  not sure exactly what you're asking for

Stephen Cresswell: Interested in helping - not sure exactly what you're asking for

15:37:16 <Paolo> antlr

Paolo Missier: antlr

15:37:52 <jcheney> YACC deals with LALR gramars, but if you just want to use it to generate html this shouldn't matter

YACC deals with LALR gramars, but if you just want to use it to generate html this shouldn't matter

15:38:10 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:38:10 <jcheney> Luc: Have LL grammar, SPARQL is also LL

Luc Moreau: Have LL grammar, SPARQL is also LL

15:38:22 <jcheney> sandro: Eric Prud'hommeaux has tools

Sandro Hawke: Eric Prud'hommeaux has tools

15:38:29 <pgroth> +10

Paul Groth: +10

15:38:46 <jcheney> http://www.quut.com/berlin/ht/yacc2html.html  ??

http://www.quut.com/berlin/ht/yacc2html.html ??

15:39:10 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

15:39:11 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:39:19 <jcheney> Luc: will coordinate with sandro to look into this

Luc Moreau: will coordinate with sandro to look into this

15:39:54 <jcheney> ... Want to ask about PROV-O status

... Want to ask about PROV-O status

15:40:21 <jcheney> lebot: current focus on feedback from reviews, no major issues.  RL constraint limits what can be done.

Timothy Lebo: current focus on feedback from reviews, no major issues. RL constraint limits what can be done.

15:40:32 <jcheney> ... need to iterate and include examples in cross-reference

... need to iterate and include examples in cross-reference

15:40:41 <jcheney> ... and check against ontology to stay in sync

... and check against ontology to stay in sync

15:40:50 <jcheney> q+

q+

15:40:57 <jcheney> Luc: issues in tracker?

Luc Moreau: issues in tracker?

15:41:35 <jcheney> lebot: backlog, being cleared slowly

Timothy Lebo: backlog, being cleared slowly

15:41:41 <khalidbelhajjame> @Tim, did you get the text I sent you on collections yesterday?

Khalid Belhajjame: @Tim, did you get the text I sent you on collections yesterday?

15:41:46 <jcheney> q-

q-

15:41:52 <jcheney> Subtopic: PROV-DM

5.3. PROV-DM

Summary: Many challenging issues remain in PROV-DM. The discussion addressed how to make progress on them without (mostly) slipping into technical discussion of the merits of different approaches.

<jcheney> Summary: Many challenging issues remain in PROV-DM.  The discussion addressed how to make progress on them without (mostly) slipping into technical discussion of the merits of different approaches.
15:41:54 <lebot> @khalid, via email?

Timothy Lebo: @khalid, via email?

15:41:56 <lebot> (no)

Timothy Lebo: (no)

15:42:02 <khalidbelhajjame> @Tim, yes

Khalid Belhajjame: @Tim, yes

15:42:03 <jcheney> ... how to address:

... how to address:

15:42:20 <khalidbelhajjame> @Tim, I ll send it again

Khalid Belhajjame: @Tim, I ll send it again

15:42:31 <jcheney> ... (and who to assign actions to address)

... (and who to assign actions to address)

15:42:35 <lebot> @khalid, I'll fight my spam filter again.

Timothy Lebo: @khalid, I'll fight my spam filter again.

15:42:44 <Zakim> -[ISI]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[ISI]

<jcheney> subsubtopic: Specialization/alternate
5.3.1. Specialization/alternate

Summary: Specialization and alternate lack agreed informal definitions. Tim nominated Jim McCusker to formulate a proposal, and James and/or Tom de Nies may also discuss. The goal is to develop a natural language definition, agreed properties, and examples that are all consistent and that reflect the consensus.

<jcheney> Summary: Specialization and alternate lack agreed informal definitions.  Tim nominated Jim McCusker to formulate a proposal, and James and/or Tom de Nies may also discuss.  The goal is to develop a natural language definition, agreed properties, and examples that are all consistent and that reflect the consensus.
15:43:16 <jcheney> ... specialization/alternate issue - thought there was consensus

... specialization/alternate issue - thought there was consensus

15:43:21 <jcheney> ... debate continues

... debate continues

15:43:42 <bvillazo> I would also want to remember everyone aout the issues pending review (offtopic, sorry).

Daniel Garijo: I would also want to remember everyone aout the issues pending review (offtopic, sorry).

15:44:10 <jcheney> ... any volunteers?

... any volunteers?

15:44:11 <lebot> q+ to throw McCusker under the bus.

Timothy Lebo: q+ to throw McCusker under the bus.

15:44:19 <Paolo> @daniel I just closed mine on ontology

Paolo Missier: @daniel I just closed mine on ontology

15:44:32 <jcheney> lebot: Nominates Jim McCusker

Timothy Lebo: Nominates Jim McCusker

15:44:45 <jcheney> q+

q+

15:44:52 <bvillazo> @paolo, thanks!

Daniel Garijo: @paolo, thanks!

15:44:57 <satya> me too

Satya Sahoo: me too

15:44:58 <jcheney> lebot: concerned parties - Graham, James?

Timothy Lebo: concerned parties - Graham, James?

15:45:00 <jun> me too

Jun Zhao: me to

15:45:04 <tdenies> I have some concerns as well

Tom De Nies: I have some concerns as well

15:45:06 <jcheney> ... Satya?

... Satya?

15:45:21 <satya> @james, concerns about specialization

Satya Sahoo: @james, concerns about specialization

15:46:20 <jcheney> lebot: will point Jim to IRC and definitions

Timothy Lebo: will point Jim to IRC and definitions

15:46:31 <jcheney> Luc: worth having 2 people to look at it?

Luc Moreau: worth having 2 people to look at it?

15:46:46 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

15:46:49 <jcheney> jun: would like to help but on the road

Jun Zhao: would like to help but on the road

15:47:08 <jcheney> ... in meetings

... in meetings

15:47:29 <tdenies> +q

Tom De Nies: +q

15:47:52 <pgroth_> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:47:53 <lebot> q-=

Timothy Lebo: q-=

15:47:55 <lebot> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

15:47:57 <Luc> ack leb

Luc Moreau: ack leb

15:48:40 <jcheney> jcheney: what is the specialization lead expected to do?

James Cheney: what is the specialization lead expected to do?

15:49:08 <jcheney> Luc: would like to see agreement that definitions for entity, specialization, alternate are fine

Luc Moreau: would like to see agreement that definitions for entity, specialization, alternate are fine

15:49:20 <jcheney> ... and examples in DM documents accurate

... and examples in DM documents accurate

15:49:26 <jcheney> ... and properties are supported

... and properties are supported

15:49:29 <lebot> entity, specialization, alternate definitions == okay. examples of each are also == okay. property properties (trans, reflex) == okay.

Timothy Lebo: entity, specialization, alternate definitions == okay. examples of each are also == okay. property properties (trans, reflex) == okay.

15:50:51 <jcheney> jcheney: let's make sure we're happy with the formal thing in semantics document.

James Cheney: let's make sure we're happy with the formal thing in semantics document.

15:52:33 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:52:33 <lebot> james busy next week, travel the following.

Timothy Lebo: james busy next week, travel the following.

15:52:41 <Luc> ack jc

Luc Moreau: ack jc

15:52:58 <jcheney> tdenies: concerns about alt/specialization

Tom De Nies: concerns about alt/specialization

15:53:05 <jcheney> ... not sure if 2 leads would be right way to go

... not sure if 2 leads would be right way to go

15:53:11 <jcheney> ... lots of chaos on discussion

... lots of chaos on discussion

15:53:25 <jcheney> ... jcheney to coordinate/formulate proposal?

... jcheney to coordinate/formulate proposal?

15:53:32 <jcheney> s/too/to/
15:53:36 <lebot> spec/alt interested parties: jun, tom, satya, tim, james, (graham?)

Timothy Lebo: spec/alt interested parties: jun, tom, satya, tim, james, (graham?)

15:53:38 <Luc> ack tom

Luc Moreau: ack tom

15:54:04 <pgroth_> we need one definition and should then vote

Paul Groth: we need one definition and should then vote

15:54:08 <pgroth_> in my opinion

Paul Groth: in my opinion

15:54:13 <khalidbelhajjame> Wouldn't it help speed up the process of reaching an agreement if the people that are opposed to the notion of specialization and alternate as it is in the current document participate in that effort?

Khalid Belhajjame: Wouldn't it help speed up the process of reaching an agreement if the people that are opposed to the notion of specialization and alternate as it is in the current document participate in that effort?

15:54:51 <lebot> spec/alt interested parties: jun, tom, satya, tim, james, (graham?), jim

Timothy Lebo: spec/alt interested parties: jun, tom, satya, tim, james, (graham?), jim

15:54:57 <jcheney> Luc: starting semantics seems like a good approach, but why can't we define things informally?

Luc Moreau: starting semantics seems like a good approach, but why can't we define things informally?

15:55:22 <lebot> +q to table this.

Timothy Lebo: +q to table this.

15:57:11 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:58:24 <jcheney> Luc: moving on...

Luc Moreau: moving on...

15:58:51 <pgroth_> can jim and james lead

Paul Groth: can jim and james lead

15:58:51 <lebot> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

15:58:52 <sandro> lebot, americans put things on a table, brits take things off a table, or something like that.

Sandro Hawke: lebot, americans put things on a table, brits take things off a table, or something like that.

15:59:03 <jcheney> ... process: Jim McCusker (via tim), James, Thomas to iterate over email

... process: Jim McCusker (via tim), James, Thomas to iterate over email

15:59:14 <lebot> american : table :-)

Timothy Lebo: american : table :-)

15:59:23 <jcheney> subsubtopic: Responsibility
5.3.2. Responsibility

Summary: One criticism of PROV-DM is the overloading of the term "responsibility" for both "association" and "delegation". Also, it may be counterintuitive to say that software agents can be "responsible". Issues should be raised to discuss and formulate a proposal.

<jcheney> Summary: One criticism of PROV-DM is the overloading of the term "responsibility" for both "association" and "delegation".  Also, it may be counterintuitive to say that software agents can be "responsible".  Issues should be raised to discuss and formulate a proposal.
15:59:38 <jcheney> ... Graham criticized "software agents being accoutnable"

... Graham criticized "software agents being accoutnable"

16:00:18 <jcheney> ... overloading of "association" and "delegation" senses

... overloading of "association" and "delegation" senses

16:00:40 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:00:57 <jcheney> ... how to converge to common view?

... how to converge to common view?

16:01:10 <pgroth_> just would say that this was in wd3 no?

Paul Groth: just would say that this was in wd3 no?

16:02:07 <khalidbelhajjame> I think the latter option to rename the responsibility associated with "actedOnBehalfOn" would be a quick fix to this issue

Khalid Belhajjame: I think the latter option to rename the responsibility associated with "actedOnBehalfOn" would be a quick fix to this issue

16:02:10 <lebot> paul broke up

Timothy Lebo: paul broke up

16:02:14 <jcheney> pgroth: <breaking connection>

Paul Groth: <breaking connection>

16:02:30 <pgroth_> my point is that if there's not a quorom of objection

Paul Groth: my point is that if there's not a quorom of objection

16:02:36 <pgroth_> yes

Paul Groth: yes

16:02:36 <jcheney> Luc: suggetions/alternatives should be raised

Luc Moreau: suggetions/alternatives should be raised

16:02:59 <pgroth_> formal issue needs to be raised with suggested alternatives

Paul Groth: formal issue needs to be raised with suggested alternatives

16:03:14 <jcheney> subsubtopic: Collections
5.3.3. Collections

Summary: The need for, and generality of, collections has been questioned in reviews. Several WG members expressed support since there are many colections on the Web and if PROV does not provide a standard way of describing the provenance of collections then people will invent lots of different ways. On the other hand, it is not yet clear that collections are important enough to be an integral part of PROV, since the same argument could be made about a lot of other data structures. Jun and Satya are to be assigned actions to come up with examples of limitations of the current proposal.

<jcheney> Summary: The need for, and generality of, collections has been questioned in reviews.  Several WG members expressed support since there are many colections on the Web and if PROV does not provide a standard way of describing the provenance of collections then people will invent lots of different ways.  On the other hand, it is not yet clear that collections are important enough to be an integral part of PROV, since the same argument could be made about a lot of other data structures. Jun and Satya are to be assigned actions to come up with examples of limitations of the current proposal.
16:03:32 <jcheney> ... Graham questions why collections are in DM at all, and are key-value maps too restrictive

... Graham questions why collections are in DM at all, and are key-value maps too restrictive

16:03:46 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

16:03:50 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:04:12 <jcheney> smiles: collections important because many web resources are collections

Simon Miles: collections important because many web resources are collections

16:04:15 <jun> q+

Jun Zhao: q+

16:04:17 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:04:19 <Luc> ack sm

Luc Moreau: ack sm

16:04:30 <Luc> ack jun

Luc Moreau: ack jun

16:04:59 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

16:05:02 <jcheney> jun: agree collections important, but concerned that model is so restrictive

Jun Zhao: agree collections important, but concerned that model is so restrictive

16:05:02 <Curt> q+

Curt Tilmes: q+

16:05:54 <jcheney> Luc: examples?

Luc Moreau: examples?

16:05:57 <christine> apologies, I need to leave

Christine Runnegar: apologies, I need to leave

16:06:03 <christine> ?quit

Christine Runnegar: ?quit

16:06:07 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

16:06:09 <jcheney> jun: think collections can express things but too complicated

Jun Zhao: think collections can express things but too complicated

16:06:58 <jcheney> satya: collections are important, but key-value pairs are over-specifying; issues with insertion and deletion expressions

Satya Sahoo: collections are important, but key-value pairs are over-specifying; issues with insertion and deletion expressions

16:07:27 <Luc> ack

Luc Moreau: ack

16:07:33 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:07:36 <Luc> ack sat

Luc Moreau: ack sat

16:07:36 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q-

16:07:42 <Luc> ack pao

Luc Moreau: ack pao

16:07:54 <jcheney> Paolo: collections simplified to containers of anything, minimal insertion, deletion, membership operations

Paolo Missier: collections simplified to containers of anything, minimal insertion, deletion, membership operations

16:08:29 <pgroth_> the debate should be held offline

Paul Groth: the debate should be held offline

16:08:31 <jcheney> ... sets of entities rather than key-value maps?

... sets of entities rather than key-value maps?

16:08:35 <pgroth_> but it's a clear criticism

Paul Groth: but it's a clear criticism

16:08:50 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:08:52 <pgroth_> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:09:05 <Luc> ack cur

Luc Moreau: ack cur

16:09:15 <jcheney> Curt: Agree that collections are important, people will want to represent provenance, but that's true of a lot of other important things

Curt Tilmes: Agree that collections are important, people will want to represent provenance, but that's true of a lot of other important things

16:09:28 <jcheney> ... Is this so fundamental to provenance that it needs to be in PROV-DM

... Is this so fundamental to provenance that it needs to be in PROV-DM

16:09:56 <jcheney> ... or could it be built on top later?  Believe it is separable from the fundamental concepts of PROV-DM

... or could it be built on top later? Believe it is separable from the fundamental concepts of PROV-DM

16:10:03 <smiles> @Curt agreed that it is separable (but still seems particularly important)

Simon Miles: @Curt agreed that it is separable (but still seems particularly important)

16:10:07 <pgroth_> so curt suggests a note

Paul Groth: so curt suggests a note

16:10:11 <jcheney> ... Don't mind putting it in but could be a separate effort

... Don't mind putting it in but could be a separate effort

16:10:18 <jun> @Paolo, I'll be happy with a set:) But I'll take this offline

Jun Zhao: @Paolo, I'll be happy with a set:) But I'll take this offline

16:10:27 <lebot> +1 curt, it does stand alone well. (but whether that means remove it, who knows...)

Timothy Lebo: +1 curt, it does stand alone well. (but whether that means remove it, who knows...)

16:10:38 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

16:10:38 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:11:02 <pgroth_> a note would give us more time but would also not have the "weight" of a recommendation

Paul Groth: a note would give us more time but would also not have the "weight" of a recommendation

16:11:04 <jcheney> khalid: if we don't include collections, then many people will hack it later

Khalid Belhajjame: if we don't include collections, then many people will hack it later

16:11:20 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:11:24 <Luc> ack kha

Luc Moreau: ack kha

16:11:35 <jcheney> ... defining members as key-value pairs is general

... defining members as key-value pairs is general

16:12:03 <jcheney> Luc: technical discussion on mailing list, actions for jun and satya

Luc Moreau: technical discussion on mailing list, actions for jun and satya

16:12:16 <SamCoppens> Sorry, need to go

Sam Coppens: Sorry, need to go

<jcheney> subsubtopic: Accounts
5.3.4. Accounts

Summary: Work on accounts has been delayed until after the release, Tim and Luc plan to look at it after release

<jcheney> Summary: Work on accounts has been delayed until after the release, Tim and Luc plan to look at it after release
16:12:25 <jcheney> ... accounts: downgraded to minimal role in WD4, back burner until rest reorganized

... accounts: downgraded to minimal role in WD4, back burner until rest reorganized

16:12:47 <jcheney> ... Plan to work on this after synchronized release; related to annotations

... Plan to work on this after synchronized release; related to annotations

16:13:01 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:13:09 <pgroth_> +q

Paul Groth: +q

16:13:23 <jcheney> ...volunteers?

...volunteers?

16:13:49 <jcheney> lebot: plan to look at it, may be able to help

Timothy Lebo: plan to look at it, may be able to help

16:13:59 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg

16:14:16 <jcheney> pgroth: should be lightweight (agreed at F2F2)

Paul Groth: should be lightweight (agreed at F2F2)

16:14:30 <jcheney> ...needed for provenance of provenance

...needed for provenance of provenance

16:14:32 <lebot> q+ to say I'd like to take more away :-)

Timothy Lebo: q+ to say I'd like to take more away :-)

16:14:45 <jcheney> Luc: discussion after document release

Luc Moreau: discussion after document release

16:14:48 <lebot> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

16:14:59 <pgroth_> great

Paul Groth: great

16:15:08 <jcheney> lebot: prefer to take things away

Timothy Lebo: prefer to take things away

16:15:12 <pgroth_> happy to chime is as well

Paul Groth: happy to chime is as well

16:15:25 <jcheney> Luc: need to fix date for proposal for WG

Luc Moreau: need to fix date for proposal for WG

<jcheney> subsubtopic: Invalidation/destruction
5.3.5. Invalidation/destruction

Summary: Paul and Tim plan to discuss and develop a proposal for the invalidation/destruction event after the release

<jcheney> Summary: Paul and Tim plan to discuss and develop a proposal for the invalidation/destruction event after the release
16:15:36 <jcheney> ... appetite for invaludation/destruction?

... appetite for invaludation/destruction?

16:15:46 <pgroth_> suggest we should produce a final version

Paul Groth: suggest we should produce a final version

16:15:50 <pgroth_> me

Paul Groth: me

16:15:52 <jcheney> ... technical issues: is someone willing to help with this

... technical issues: is someone willing to help with this

16:16:10 <lebot> I'd like to help with destruction

Timothy Lebo: I'd like to help with destruction

16:16:12 <jcheney> pgroth: would like to come up with a proposal for a vote

Paul Groth: would like to come up with a proposal for a vote

16:16:16 <smiles> I'm also happy to give feedback

Simon Miles: I'm also happy to give feedback

16:16:36 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

16:16:36 <jcheney> Luc: adjourned

Luc Moreau: adjourned

16:16:37 <Zakim> -lebot

Zakim IRC Bot: -lebot

16:16:37 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

16:16:38 <Zakim> -??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P9

16:16:38 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:16:38 <Zakim> -??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P3

16:16:40 <Zakim> -jun

Zakim IRC Bot: -jun

16:16:40 <Zakim> -bvillazo

Zakim IRC Bot: -bvillazo

16:16:43 <Zakim> -tdenies

Zakim IRC Bot: -tdenies

16:16:44 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

16:16:44 <pgroth_> luc do you want a call?

Paul Groth: luc do you want a call?

16:16:46 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:16:54 <Zakim> -??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17

16:17:25 <jcheney> rrsagent, set log public

rrsagent, set log public

16:17:26 <pgroth_> rrssagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrssagent, make logs public

16:17:51 <jcheney> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:17:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-prov-minutes.html jcheney

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-prov-minutes.html jcheney

16:18:06 <jcheney> trackbot, end telcon

trackbot, end telcon

16:18:06 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:18:06 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been tdenies, Curt_Tilmes, Luc, [ISI], +1.315.330.aacc, lebot, jcheney, SamCoppens, bvillazo, jun, Sandro, Satya_Sahoo, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been tdenies, Curt_Tilmes, Luc, [ISI], +1.315.330.aacc, lebot, jcheney, SamCoppens, bvillazo, jun, Sandro, Satya_Sahoo, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth

16:18:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:18:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:18:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:18:15 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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