edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 12 January 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.12
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Michael Lang, Olaf Hartig, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Stephan Zednik, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Daniel Garijo
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics
  1. Admin

  2. Prov-AQ changes

    Review of PROV-AQ changes in response to raised issues. Editors ask for review and response to solved issues. Editors still have a number of outstanding issues to address.

  3. Updates of Prov-DM

    review of outstanding older issues. Satya is in the process of checking whether the outstanding issues have been resolved or are superseded by new issues. He agreed to complete these by next week.

  4. prov-o

    Overview of the status of Prov-O. Team has prepared a list of outstanding issues on the document. This list will be circulated. Issues to do with the prov-dm will be raised soon.

  5. Prov-Semantics

    James has been updating the document to both address issues and attempt to follow the evolving discussion on the mailing list. Satya and Paul agreed to read the document and provide feedback.

  6. Accounts in Prov

    Accounts and identifiers are seen as deeply related. The group had a long discussion about what is and what is not being identified in the prov-dm, in particular whether records or entities were being identified or both. The group agreed that it was important to settle this soon to gain a clear understanding. It was agreed that Luc would write up an example and that discussion should continue on the mailing list.

16:00:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-irc

16:00:16 <Luc> are you back?

Luc Moreau: are you back?

16:00:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

16:00:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

16:00:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
16:00:20 <trackbot> Date: 12 January 2012
16:00:24 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be prove

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be prove

16:00:30 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

16:00:30 <jun> Yes! Glad to be back! First week back at work!

Jun Zhao: Yes! Glad to be back! First week back at work!

16:00:35 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started

16:00:38 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.12
16:00:39 <Luc> congratulations!

Luc Moreau: congratulations!

16:00:39 <dgarijo> Hi Jun!

Daniel Garijo: Hi Jun!

16:00:48 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
16:00:53 <Luc> only a few thousand messages to catch up with ;-)

Luc Moreau: only a few thousand messages to catch up with ;-)

16:00:53 <jun> @luc: thanks

Jun Zhao: @luc: thanks

16:01:03 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

16:01:05 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

16:01:05 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:01:06 <jun> @luc, yep:)

Jun Zhao: @luc, yep:)

16:01:11 <pgroth> Zakim, make logs public

Paul Groth: Zakim, make logs public

16:01:19 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

16:01:30 <pgroth> scribe?

Paul Groth: scribe?

16:01:40 <satya> I can scribe

Satya Sahoo: I can scribe

16:01:41 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

16:01:45 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:01:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs public', pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'make logs public', pgroth

16:01:53 <pgroth> Scribe: Daniel Garijo

(Scribe set to Daniel Garijo)

16:02:01 <dgarijo> although I have a bad sound quality today :(

although I have a bad sound quality today :(

16:02:03 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

16:02:10 <pgroth> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

16:02:23 <Zakim> +??P18

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18

16:03:01 <Zakim> +tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo

16:03:09 <dgarijo> pgroth: as usual, vote on the minutes of last week

Paul Groth: as usual, vote on the minutes of last week

16:03:12 <pgroth> Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-01-05

Paul Groth: Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-01-05

16:03:14 <dgarijo> +1

+1

16:03:15 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

16:03:20 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

16:03:23 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

16:03:23 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

16:03:23 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

16:03:26 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

16:03:31 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

16:03:39 <MLang> +1

Michael Lang: +1

16:03:43 <jcheney> zakim, ??P18 is me

James Cheney: zakim, ??P18 is me

16:03:51 <pgroth> Accepted Minutes January 5 2012

Paul Groth: Accepted Minutes January 5 2012

16:04:05 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

16:04:06 <dgarijo> pgroth: review of actions items

Paul Groth: review of actions items

16:04:21 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

16:04:26 <dgarijo> ... 1) Action on pgroth to write a blog on overview

... 1) Action on pgroth to write a blog on overview

16:04:40 <dgarijo> ... about the PROV activities

... about the PROV activities

16:04:47 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2012/01/11/feedback-welcome-an-overview-of-the-provenance-prov-family-of-specs/

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2012/01/11/feedback-welcome-an-overview-of-the-provenance-prov-family-of-specs/

16:05:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aa]

16:05:11 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, IPcaller.aa is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, IPcaller.aa is me

16:05:27 <Zakim> +sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro

16:05:34 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

16:05:39 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aacc

16:05:43 <Zakim> +??P46

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P46

16:05:45 <dgarijo> ... Luc had an action item to write a blog post with the diffs

... Luc had an action item to write a blog post with the diffs

16:05:57 <dgarijo> ... Satya had an action to look at a number of issues

... Satya had an action to look at a number of issues

16:06:12 <olaf> zakim, aacc is me

Olaf Hartig: zakim, aacc is me

16:06:14 <dgarijo> Satya: I have been working on it

Satya Sahoo: I have been working on it

16:06:23 <Zakim> +olaf; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +olaf; got it

16:06:57 <dgarijo> pgroth: please sign on the f2f page so I can make the appropriate arrangements

Paul Groth: please sign on the f2f page so I can make the appropriate arrangements

16:07:03 <dgarijo> ... we need scribes

... we need scribes

16:07:14 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-AQ changes

2. Prov-AQ changes

Summary: Review of PROV-AQ changes in response to raised issues. Editors ask for review and response to solved issues. Editors still have a number of outstanding issues to address.

<pgroth> Summary: Review of PROV-AQ changes in response to raised issues. Editors ask for review and response to solved issues. Editors still have a number of outstanding issues to address.
16:08:10 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html

Paul Groth: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html

16:08:29 <dgarijo> ... gk tried to address a number of issues

... gk tried to address a number of issues

16:08:52 <dgarijo> ... made a review and a bunch of editorial clarifications

... made a review and a bunch of editorial clarifications

16:08:57 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/5

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/5

16:09:04 <Zakim> +[ISI]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[ISI]

16:09:18 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.633.aadd

16:09:43 <dgarijo> ... question about xml examples. Do we want them? where should they come in?

... question about xml examples. Do we want them? where should they come in?

16:10:33 <dgarijo> ... ??? suggested pingback to know when the provenance has been recorded

... ??? suggested pingback to know when the provenance has been recorded

16:10:41 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.789.470.aaee

16:10:52 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

16:10:55 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:10:57 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:10:59 <dgarijo> ... pgrothhas to still to review the changes to see if completely agrees with it

... pgrothhas to still to review the changes to see if completely agrees with it

16:11:22 <Zakim> + +329331aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aaff

16:11:25 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:11:44 <pgroth> Topic: Updates of Prov-DM

3. Updates of Prov-DM

Summary: review of outstanding older issues. Satya is in the process of checking whether the outstanding issues have been resolved or are superseded by new issues. He agreed to complete these by next week.

<pgroth> Summary: review of outstanding older issues. Satya is in the process of checking whether the outstanding issues have been resolved or are superseded by new issues. He agreed to complete these by next week.
16:11:52 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm

16:11:57 <dgarijo> ... update on issues in prov-dm

... update on issues in prov-dm

16:12:06 <SamCoppens> zakim, +329331aaff is me

Sam Coppens: zakim, +329331aaff is me

16:12:06 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it

16:12:17 <dgarijo> ... most of the issues have been raised/resolved.

... most of the issues have been raised/resolved.

16:12:18 <Zakim> + +1.518.608.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.608.aagg

16:12:35 <Zakim> - +44.789.470.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: - +44.789.470.aaee

16:12:48 <dgarijo> Luc: we have to group the issues. 105 is still open.

Luc Moreau: we have to group the issues. 105 is still open.

16:13:03 <dgarijo> ... will follow up a response

... will follow up a response

16:13:15 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.789.470.aahh

16:13:52 <satya> @Luc, yes I am now reviewing the updates in DM and will respond to these issues soon

Satya Sahoo: @Luc, yes I am now reviewing the updates in DM and will respond to these issues soon

16:13:53 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:13:59 <dgarijo> ... tomorrow morning will start another pass on the document to prepare it for review by the next telecon

... tomorrow morning will start another pass on the document to prepare it for review by the next telecon

16:14:08 <Luc> @satya, thanks

Luc Moreau: @satya, thanks

16:14:08 <dgarijo> ... please satya review the pending issues

... please satya review the pending issues

16:14:09 <Zakim> - +44.789.470.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: - +44.789.470.aahh

16:14:21 <stain> zakim, +44.789.470.aahh is me

Stian Soiland-Reyes: zakim, +44.789.470.aahh is me

16:14:21 <Zakim> sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named '+44.789.470.aahh'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named '+44.789.470.aahh'

16:14:22 <dgarijo> satya: ok

Satya Sahoo: ok

16:14:52 <dgarijo> pgroth: are this already in your action?

Paul Groth: are this already in your action?

16:15:09 <dgarijo> Luc: no. That action is from several weeks ago

Luc Moreau: no. That action is from several weeks ago

16:15:20 <stain> the "vacant" conference bridge is fighting me

Stian Soiland-Reyes: the "vacant" conference bridge is fighting me

16:15:20 <dgarijo> pgroth: satya, replace the action with a new one.

Paul Groth: satya, replace the action with a new one.

16:15:32 <pgroth> Action: Satya to address issues in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm

ACTION: Satya to address issues in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm

16:15:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-52 - Address issues in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-01-19].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-52 - Address issues in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-01-19].

16:15:44 <pgroth> Topic: prov-o

4. prov-o

Summary: Overview of the status of Prov-O. Team has prepared a list of outstanding issues on the document. This list will be circulated. Issues to do with the prov-dm will be raised soon.

<pgroth> Summary: Overview of the status of Prov-O. Team has prepared a list of outstanding issues on the document. This list will be circulated. Issues to do with the prov-dm will be raised soon.
16:16:02 <satya> Meeting minutes from last PROV-O call: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2012-01-09

Satya Sahoo: Meeting minutes from last PROV-O call: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2012-01-09

16:16:07 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aaii

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.789.470.aaii

16:16:38 <dgarijo> satya: dgarijo has created a list of issues, and we have been resolving them

Satya Sahoo: dgarijo has created a list of issues, and we have been resolving them

16:16:53 <dgarijo> ... still have 3 main bullets to complete the list.

... still have 3 main bullets to complete the list.

16:17:12 <dgarijo> ... we have been recording the changes to make in the doc

... we have been recording the changes to make in the doc

16:17:27 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:17:34 <dgarijo> ... some issues have been raised.

... some issues have been raised.

16:17:56 <Luc> can you indicate what requires discussion with dm?

Luc Moreau: can you indicate what requires discussion with dm?

16:18:02 <dgarijo> +q

+q

16:18:16 <pgroth> ack dgarijo

Paul Groth: ack dgarijo

16:18:21 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:18:33 <pgroth> ack luc

Paul Groth: ack luc

16:18:49 <dgarijo> satya: you'll see the changes to the html doc soon (next telecon)

Satya Sahoo: you'll see the changes to the html doc soon (next telecon)

16:19:15 <dgarijo> Luc: can you identify what are the issues to be discused within dm?

Luc Moreau: can you identify what are the issues to be discused within dm?

16:19:15 <satya> Meeting minutes PROV_O: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2011-12-29

Satya Sahoo: Meeting minutes PROV_O: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2011-12-29

16:19:53 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2012-01-04#Did_not_get_to_in_this_telecon ?

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2012-01-04#Did_not_get_to_in_this_telecon ?

16:20:02 <dgarijo> satya: some concerns about making wasStartedBy and wasEndedBy subclasses of wasAssociatedWith

Satya Sahoo: some concerns about making wasStartedBy and wasEndedBy subclasses of wasAssociatedWith

16:20:41 <dgarijo> szednik: some classes seem to be modeling things with different semantics. Also actedOnBehalfOf

Stephan Zednik: some classes seem to be modeling things with different semantics. Also actedOnBehalfOf

16:21:42 <dgarijo> luc: some of the issues could be raised as issues against prov-o

Luc Moreau: some of the issues could be raised as issues against prov-o

16:22:20 <dgarijo> luc: none of the editors will be at f2f

Luc Moreau: none of the editors will be at f2f

16:22:49 <khalidbelhajjame> I ll be there

Khalid Belhajjame: I ll be there

16:22:51 <tlebo> I'll be calling in to F2F2.

Timothy Lebo: I'll be calling in to F2F2.

16:22:53 <dgarijo> satya: some of the authors are going to attend: Daniel, Stian, Khalid

Satya Sahoo: some of the authors are going to attend: Daniel, Stian, Khalid

16:22:56 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:22:57 <stain> not tim?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: not tim?

16:23:38 <dgarijo> pgroth: so, in summary, you will be raising issues against dm soon.

Paul Groth: so, in summary, you will be raising issues against dm soon.

16:23:42 <dgarijo> satya: yes

Satya Sahoo: yes

16:23:50 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:24:08 <jcheney> www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsStrawman

James Cheney: www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsStrawman

16:24:10 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-Semantics

5. Prov-Semantics

Summary: James has been updating the document to both address issues and attempt to follow the evolving discussion on the mailing list. Satya and Paul agreed to read the document and provide feedback.

<pgroth> Summary: James has been updating the document to both address issues and attempt to follow the evolving discussion on the mailing list. Satya and Paul agreed to read the document and provide feedback.
16:24:29 <dgarijo> jcheney: I've been updating what's there

James Cheney: I've been updating what's there

16:24:43 <dgarijo> ... answered some emails

... answered some emails

16:25:31 <dgarijo> ... diference between the 3 level and 2 level ???

... diference between the 3 level and 2 level ???

16:25:47 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsStrawman#Objects_vs._Things_vs._entities

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsStrawman#Objects_vs._Things_vs._entities

16:26:44 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:26:47 <dgarijo> ... what the alternatives are about this issue

... what the alternatives are about this issue

16:27:01 <Zakim> -??P46

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P46

16:27:15 <dgarijo> luc: this could be raised as an issue against the semantics

Luc Moreau: this could be raised as an issue against the semantics

16:27:35 <dgarijo> jcheney: will do that

James Cheney: will do that

16:27:40 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

16:28:20 <dgarijo> satya: Ithink the distinction between entities and real world entities is very important

Satya Sahoo: Ithink the distinction between entities and real world entities is very important

16:28:46 <stian> +1 to satua

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1 to satua

16:28:47 <dgarijo> ... the real world things have no relevance in our context

... the real world things have no relevance in our context

16:29:18 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:29:20 <Paolo> @satya: not relevant for the language, but important distinction for the semantics!

Paolo Missier: @satya: not relevant for the language, but important distinction for the semantics!

16:29:55 <pgroth> Q?

Paul Groth: Q?

16:29:59 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:30:00 <Paolo> so "things" are not part of the description, but we are talking about the semantics here, i.e., the interpretaion of the language constructs

Paolo Missier: so "things" are not part of the description, but we are talking about the semantics here, i.e., the interpretaion of the language constructs

16:30:13 <dgarijo> luc: From the beggining we made a distinction between the record and the real world thing. Thus it is part of dm

Luc Moreau: From the beggining we made a distinction between the record and the real world thing. Thus it is part of dm

16:30:48 <satya> @Paolo: In our context that is any computer science application  - there are no real world things

Satya Sahoo: @Paolo: In our context that is any computer science application - there are no real world things

16:31:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:31:15 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

16:31:24 <pgroth> ack Paolo

Paul Groth: ack Paolo

16:31:35 <dgarijo> @satya: what about the provenance of Mona Lisa? That is a real world thing..

@satya: what about the provenance of Mona Lisa? That is a real world thing..

16:32:30 <dgarijo> Paolo: we're not talking about provenance within a specific system.

Paolo Missier: we're not talking about provenance within a specific system.

16:32:40 <stian> @dharijo no, you are talking about a characterisaton

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @dharijo no, you are talking about a characterisaton

16:32:45 <satya> @Daniel: No, the "Mona Lisa" in any application is a representation/abstraction of the real world thing - the real world thing is never part of any computer science application

Satya Sahoo: @Daniel: No, the "Mona Lisa" in any application is a representation/abstraction of the real world thing - the real world thing is never part of any computer science application

16:32:50 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:33:17 <dgarijo> pgroth: maybe we can pick this at the end of the call

Paul Groth: maybe we can pick this at the end of the call

16:33:46 <stian>  is it the painting? the model?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: is it the painting? the model?

16:34:02 <dgarijo> @stian, satya: ok

@stian, satya: ok

16:34:33 <stian> (have to go now)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: (have to go now)

16:34:35 <dgarijo> luc: will try to catch up with the tracker.

Luc Moreau: will try to catch up with the tracker.

16:34:41 <Zakim> - +44.789.470.aaii

Zakim IRC Bot: - +44.789.470.aaii

16:35:01 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:35:15 <dgarijo> jcheney: we have to identify where are we going to find this at the time of the f2f (next 2 weeks)

James Cheney: we have to identify where are we going to find this at the time of the f2f (next 2 weeks)

16:35:20 <Zakim> -sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro

16:35:43 <Zakim> -??P30

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P30

16:35:51 <dgarijo> ... alternate of, specialization of semantics.

... alternate of, specialization of semantics.

16:37:19 <dgarijo> pgroth: when do you like people to read the document?

Paul Groth: when do you like people to read the document?

16:37:49 <dgarijo> jcheney: people can look at it now and provide feedback

James Cheney: people can look at it now and provide feedback

16:38:01 <Paolo> sorry I have to go...

Paolo Missier: sorry I have to go...

16:38:33 <satya> I will review

Satya Sahoo: I will review

16:38:34 <dgarijo> pgroth: volunteers?

Paul Groth: volunteers?

16:38:52 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:38:52 <pgroth> \

Paul Groth: \

16:38:57 <dgarijo> ... pgroth, satya are volunteers.

... pgroth, satya are volunteers.

16:39:20 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

16:39:20 <pgroth> Topic: Accounts in Prov

6. Accounts in Prov

Summary: Accounts and identifiers are seen as deeply related. The group had a long discussion about what is and what is not being identified in the prov-dm, in particular whether records or entities were being identified or both. The group agreed that it was important to settle this soon to gain a clear understanding. It was agreed that Luc would write up an example and that discussion should continue on the mailing list.

<pgroth> Summary: Accounts and identifiers are seen as deeply related. The group had a long discussion about what is and what is not being identified in the prov-dm, in particular whether records or entities were being identified or both. The group agreed that it was important to settle this soon to gain a clear understanding. It was agreed that Luc would write up an example and that discussion should continue on the mailing list.
16:39:30 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

16:39:42 <dgarijo> tlebo: I haven't had a chance to answer all the people yet

Timothy Lebo: I haven't had a chance to answer all the people yet

16:39:44 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

16:39:59 <dgarijo> ... if anibody has something right now it will be ok

... if anibody has something right now it will be ok

16:40:02 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame

Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame

16:40:22 <dgarijo> khalid: how entities are differentiated in different accounts

Khalid Belhajjame: how entities are differentiated in different accounts

16:40:29 <dgarijo> ... ?

... ?

16:40:46 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:40:49 <dgarijo> ... it's more a practical point of view.

... it's more a practical point of view.

16:41:06 <dgarijo> tim: TRIG syntax is a bit confusing in those examples.

Timothy Lebo: TRIG syntax is a bit confusing in those examples.

16:41:43 <dgarijo> ... how can we have this scoped entities without the dcterms:identifiers.

... how can we have this scoped entities without the dcterms:identifiers.

16:42:21 <dgarijo> khalid: so you think there could be problems having different entities scoped in different accounts

Khalid Belhajjame: so you think there could be problems having different entities scoped in different accounts

16:42:28 <satya> @Tim: +1, also having scoped identifiers (aka URI) is contrary to RDF semantics and global scope of URIs

Satya Sahoo: @Tim: +1, also having scoped identifiers (aka URI) is contrary to RDF semantics and global scope of URIs

16:43:09 <dgarijo> khalid: how do I identify an entity across different accounts.

Khalid Belhajjame: how do I identify an entity across different accounts.

16:43:24 <dgarijo> Tim. the same URI is mentioned in both named graphs.

Tim. the same URI is mentioned in both named graphs.

16:43:34 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:44:10 <dgarijo> ... there is no requirement that the inner accounts have to be mentioned in the outer accounts

... there is no requirement that the inner accounts have to be mentioned in the outer accounts

16:44:11 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:44:15 <dgarijo> khalid: thanks

Khalid Belhajjame: thanks

16:45:03 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:45:04 <dgarijo> pgroth: are you having problems with ids in dm?

Paul Groth: are you having problems with ids in dm?

16:45:18 <dgarijo> tim: maybe I'm misreading ids in dm

Timothy Lebo: maybe I'm misreading ids in dm

16:45:30 <dgarijo> luc: your interpretation is ok

Luc Moreau: your interpretation is ok

16:45:45 <dgarijo> ... I'm not sure that we have the same understanding of record

... I'm not sure that we have the same understanding of record

16:46:56 <dgarijo> tim: in the rdf world a reocrd is a triple or an rdf graph.

Timothy Lebo: in the rdf world a reocrd is a triple or an rdf graph.

16:46:57 <satya> @Luc, what are the columns of these tables - Entity, Agent, wasGeneratedBy?

Satya Sahoo: @Luc, what are the columns of these tables - Entity, Agent, wasGeneratedBy?

16:47:15 <dgarijo> luc: that would be routed in a specific subject.

Luc Moreau: that would be rooted in a specific subject.

16:47:23 <MacTed> s/routed/rooted/
16:48:03 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:48:03 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:48:03 <dgarijo> ... if we have an entity Luc in Boston type person type entity, everything would be rooted from that.

... if we have an entity Luc in Boston type person type entity, everything would be rooted from that.

16:48:07 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:48:10 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:48:10 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:48:12 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

16:48:38 <pgroth> ack MacTed

Paul Groth: ack MacTed

16:48:50 <dgarijo> MacTed: a record in my mind is a single row in a database. In the rdf world is a triple

Ted Thibodeau: a record in my mind is a single row in a database. In the rdf world is a triple

16:49:31 <dgarijo> luc: a record in dm is a set of triples in the rdf context

Luc Moreau: a record in dm is a set of triples in the rdf context

16:49:40 <zednik> record

Stephan Zednik: record

16:49:41 <zednik> noun |ˈrekərd|

Stephan Zednik: noun |ˈrekərd|

16:49:41 <zednik> 1 a thing constituting a piece of evidence about the past, esp. an account of an act or occurrence kept in writing or some other permanent form: identification was made through dental records | a record of meter readings.

Stephan Zednik: 1 a thing constituting a piece of evidence about the past, esp. an account of an act or occurrence kept in writing or some other permanent form: identification was made through dental records | a record of meter readings.

16:50:07 <dgarijo> MacTed: so you're changing the understanding of record that is different in many areas.

Ted Thibodeau: so you're changing the understanding of record that is different in many areas.

16:50:31 <dgarijo> ... I keep going in circles

... I keep going in circles

16:50:53 <dgarijo> ... the common terms are not used according to their common meanings.

... the common terms are not used according to their common meanings.

16:50:59 <dgarijo> luc: I disagree

Luc Moreau: I disagree

16:51:21 <dgarijo> ... nobody has suggested an alternative to this terms

... nobody has suggested an alternative to this terms

16:51:30 <zednik> database terminology is not common term usage

Stephan Zednik: database terminology is not common term usage

16:51:52 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

16:52:26 <dgarijo> satya: if an entity is mapped to a table, what would be the columns of the table?

Satya Sahoo: if an entity is mapped to a table, what would be the columns of the table?

16:52:43 <dgarijo> luc: activity, sart, end, etc.

Luc Moreau: activity, sart, end, etc.

16:52:49 <dgarijo> ... (example)

... (example)

16:53:13 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/overview.png

Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/overview.png

16:53:22 <tlebo> it's sounding like "expression" _was_ a better term (the original "record"). What motivated the rename?

Timothy Lebo: it's sounding like "expression" _was_ a better term (the original "record"). What motivated the rename?

16:54:11 <dgarijo> luc: satya, how are you suggesting to express that?

Luc Moreau: satya, how are you suggesting to express that?

16:54:15 <MacTed> :LucInBoston :wasWearing :whiteShirt

Ted Thibodeau: :LucInBoston :wasWearing :whiteShirt

16:54:27 <dgarijo> satya: Luc in Boston is an entity

Satya Sahoo: Luc in Boston is an entity

16:55:11 <tlebo> entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color "white"])

Timothy Lebo: entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color "white"])

16:55:35 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

16:55:40 <dgarijo> satya: discussion about the Luc in Boston entity.

Satya Sahoo: discussion about the Luc in Boston entity.

16:55:46 <GK> zakim, ??p3 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p3 is me

16:55:46 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

16:55:50 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:55:53 <Zakim> -[ISI]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[ISI]

16:56:41 <Luc> entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color "white", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])

Luc Moreau: entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color "white", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])

16:57:25 <Luc> entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color="white", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])

Luc Moreau: entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color="white", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])

16:57:34 <dgarijo> satya: I was trying to understand what an entity record mean. Luc in Boston has type person would be an entity record

Satya Sahoo: I was trying to understand what an entity record mean. Luc in Boston has type person would be an entity record

16:57:49 <dgarijo> Luc: I've extended what tim just posted

Luc Moreau: I've extended what tim just posted

16:58:19 <dgarijo> ... you would map this to a series of triples

... you would map this to a series of triples

16:58:41 <dgarijo> ... entity record seems to map to a set of triples

... entity record seems to map to a set of triples

16:58:54 <dgarijo> satya: this is an example of relational db to rdf

Satya Sahoo: this is an example of relational db to rdf

16:59:03 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:59:08 <dgarijo> luc: I'm not reinventing the world

Luc Moreau: I'm not reinventing the world

16:59:17 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/overview.png

Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/overview.png

17:00:08 <dgarijo> luc: I've posted the diagram of the document. That is how it would be recorded in a relational world

Luc Moreau: I've posted the diagram of the document. That is how it would be recorded in a relational world

17:00:43 <dgarijo> satya: it is an assertion about luc in boston. It is an important distinction to make

Satya Sahoo: it is an assertion about luc in boston. It is an important distinction to make

17:01:20 <tlebo> I'm wondering what motivation we had to rename "expression" to "record".

Timothy Lebo: I'm wondering what motivation we had to rename "expression" to "record".

17:01:36 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

17:01:57 <tlebo> +1 to satya pointing out the confusion of identifying the record or the characterized thing

Timothy Lebo: +1 to satya pointing out the confusion of identifying the record or the characterized thing

17:02:31 <tlebo> @luc, thanks.

Timothy Lebo: @luc, thanks.

17:02:31 <dgarijo> luc: I'd like to explain what pgrotho and pgrothhave been discussing. There are some inconsistencies in dm  and we're trying to resolve them.

Luc Moreau: I'd like to explain what pgrotho and pgrothhave been discussing. There are some inconsistencies in dm and we're trying to resolve them.

17:02:42 <tlebo> luc: too much "language association" and was inappropriate.

Luc Moreau: too much "language association" and was inappropriate. [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

17:02:44 <MacTed> so, "entity record" is a collection of (one or more) assertions about an entity...

Ted Thibodeau: so, "entity record" is a collection of (one or more) assertions about an entity...

17:02:44 <MacTed> (and an "entity record" is an entity in its own right, with assertions about it, etc.)

Ted Thibodeau: (and an "entity record" is an entity in its own right, with assertions about it, etc.)

17:03:07 <MacTed> some of the assertions about the "entity record" comprise the provenance of that record

Ted Thibodeau: some of the assertions about the "entity record" comprise the provenance of that record

17:03:10 <dgarijo> luc: every record has an id

Luc Moreau: every record has an id

17:03:20 <GK> +1 to Satya too (the "record" is artifact of ASN; shouldn't have representation in RDF translation)

Graham Klyne: +1 to Satya too (the "record" is artifact of ASN; shouldn't have representation in RDF translation)

17:03:20 <dgarijo> satya: no, every entity has an id

Satya Sahoo: no, every entity has an id

17:04:03 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

17:04:25 <GK> What Luc is now describing is artifact of "the relational view" i.e. an implementation detail for *some* implementations.

Graham Klyne: What Luc is now describing is artifact of "the relational view" i.e. an implementation detail for *some* implementations.

17:04:43 <dgarijo> tim: let luc describe the problem, and we try to solve it offline

Paul Groth: let luc describe the problem, and we try to solve it offline

17:04:58 <dgarijo> luc: coming back what satya was saying

Luc Moreau: coming back what satya was saying

17:05:01 <Zakim> -SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens

17:05:05 <tlebo> s/tim/pgroth/
17:05:23 <dgarijo> ... luc in boston in my view is not the key of the record.

... luc in boston in my view is not the key of the record.

17:05:36 <dgarijo> @tlebo: thanks, sorry.

@tlebo: thanks, sorry.

17:05:42 <Luc> entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color="black", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])

Luc Moreau: entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color="black", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])

17:06:16 <Luc> entity id + account id = natural key for entity record

Luc Moreau: entity id + account id = natural key for entity record

17:06:21 <satya> exactly - so luc_in_boston is key for Entity "Luc in Boston"

Satya Sahoo: exactly - so luc_in_boston is key for Entity "Luc in Boston"

17:06:22 <dgarijo> ... luc in boston could have different color of tshirts, but it would be the same entity

... luc in boston could have different color of tshirts, but it would be the same entity

17:06:28 <satya> not the record

Satya Sahoo: not the record

17:06:32 <tlebo> luc: white and black shirt on same :luc_in_boston

Luc Moreau: white and black shirt on same :luc_in_boston [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

17:07:19 <satya> @Luc, then we need a distinct identifier for the record itself

Satya Sahoo: @Luc, then we need a distinct identifier for the record itself

17:07:30 <Luc> entity_reocrd_id001 - entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color="black", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])

Luc Moreau: entity_reocrd_id001 - entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color="black", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])

17:07:52 <dgarijo> ... an approach to this is to have an entity record Id that would be the key for that record. Now I would need an extra column

... an approach to this is to have an entity record Id that would be the key for that record. Now I would need an extra column

17:08:08 <satya> @Luc: ok

Satya Sahoo: @Luc: ok

17:08:14 <dgarijo> ... if we do that, that's great.

... if we do that, that's great.

17:08:15 <dgarijo> ...

...

17:08:24 <GK> @satya - isn't the record its own identifier?

Graham Klyne: @satya - isn't the record its own identifier?

17:08:25 <dgarijo> ... we can simplify a lot of the text

... we can simplify a lot of the text

17:08:25 <tlebo> entity(:luc_in_boston_on_Monday, [shirt_color="black", location=Boston, name="luc", specializationOf=:luc_in_boston_in_July])

Timothy Lebo: entity(:luc_in_boston_on_Monday, [shirt_color="black", location=Boston, name="luc", specializationOf=:luc_in_boston_in_July])

17:08:30 <MacTed> "Named Graph"  :-)

Ted Thibodeau: "Named Graph" :-)

17:08:34 <tlebo> entity(:luc_in_boston_on_Tuesday, [shirt_color="white", location=Boston, name="luc", specializationOf=:luc_in_boston_in_July])

Timothy Lebo: entity(:luc_in_boston_on_Tuesday, [shirt_color="white", location=Boston, name="luc", specializationOf=:luc_in_boston_in_July])

17:08:43 <Luc> entity id + account id = natural key for entity record

Luc Moreau: entity id + account id = natural key for entity record

17:08:46 <dgarijo> ... but from the rdf perspective may not be nice. It would imply new ids

... but from the rdf perspective may not be nice. It would imply new ids

17:09:15 <satya> @Luc: the natural key for entity record is something different from key for entity

Satya Sahoo: @Luc: the natural key for entity record is something different from key for entity

17:09:27 <tlebo> @luc, but that throws the benefits of URIs out the window (and violates AWWW)

Timothy Lebo: @luc, but that throws the benefits of URIs out the window (and violates AWWW)

17:09:36 <satya> @GK: I didn't understand

Satya Sahoo: @GK: I didn't understand

17:09:39 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

17:09:39 <GK> I think we are trying to turn ASn "records" into implementation artifacts, when they are explicitly an *abstract* syntax for talking about provenance assertions.

Graham Klyne: I think we are trying to turn ASn "records" into implementation artifacts, when they are explicitly an *abstract* syntax for talking about provenance assertions.

17:09:50 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

17:09:51 <MacTed> G-box would give the ontology of the accounts (i.e., the schema of the "entity records")

Ted Thibodeau: G-box would give the ontology of the accounts (i.e., the schema of the "entity records")

17:09:51 <MacTed> G-snaps would be the account ("entity record") instances

Ted Thibodeau: G-snaps would be the account ("entity record") instances

17:09:51 <MacTed> G-texts are the serializations of those instances

Ted Thibodeau: G-texts are the serializations of those instances

17:09:59 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

17:10:03 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

17:10:13 <dgarijo> pgroth: the issue is clear.

Paul Groth: the issue is clear.

17:10:46 <dgarijo> tim: trying to respond to Luc about naming the resource within the account.

Timothy Lebo: trying to respond to Luc about naming the resource within the account.

17:10:53 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

17:11:05 <dgarijo> luc: luc in Boston is the name of the entity.

Luc Moreau: luc in Boston is the name of the entity.

17:11:30 <dgarijo> MacTed: so the entity could have 1 million entities

Ted Thibodeau: so the entity could have 1 million names

17:11:40 <dgarijo> ... and be referring to the same thing

... and be referring to the same thing

17:11:44 <GK> Why does ASN use URIs anyway?

Graham Klyne: Why does ASN use URIs anyway?

17:11:45 <MacTed> s/entities/names/
17:11:56 <MacTed> s/names/URIs, identifiers, names/
17:11:59 <tlebo> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

17:12:38 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

17:13:21 <dgarijo> ... problem on discovering other descriptions of the same entity the first time that I'm going to describe it. How do I know that there are others?

... problem on discovering other descriptions of the same entity the first time that I'm going to describe it. How do I know that there are others?

17:13:22 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

17:14:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

17:14:51 <dgarijo> luc: the uri luc in boston is not enough to identify the records

Luc Moreau: the uri luc in boston is not enough to identify the records

17:15:09 <dgarijo> ... that is why you need to know which account belongs to

... that is why you need to know which account belongs to

17:15:11 <tlebo> @luc, then you mistakenly named luc in account 2.

Timothy Lebo: @luc, then you mistakenly named luc in account 2.

17:15:45 <Luc> @tlebo, why?

Luc Moreau: @tlebo, why?

17:15:47 <tlebo> @luc, you knew that they are different, but named them the same thing.

Timothy Lebo: @luc, you knew that they are different, but named them the same thing.

17:15:56 <dgarijo> satya: adding the acocunt id + the record does not make it an ? entity record?

Satya Sahoo: adding the acocunt id + the record does not make it an ? entity record?

17:16:18 <Luc> @tlebo, no, it's intentional, I am giving two hypothesis about what luc did

Luc Moreau: @tlebo, no, it's intentional, I am giving two hypothesis about what luc did

17:16:20 <dgarijo> luc: raising issues might be the best thing

Luc Moreau: raising issues might be the best thing

17:16:32 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

17:16:35 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

17:16:36 <Zakim> -olaf

Zakim IRC Bot: -olaf

17:16:37 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

17:16:38 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

17:16:38 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

17:16:39 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

17:16:40 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

17:16:42 <Zakim> -??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P31

17:16:43 <Zakim> - +1.202.223.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.202.223.aabb

17:16:46 <Zakim> - +1.443.708.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.443.708.aaaa

17:16:59 <Zakim> - +1.518.608.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.608.aagg

17:17:02 <Curt> zakim, +1.202.223.aabb is me

Curt Tilmes: zakim, +1.202.223.aabb is me

17:17:02 <Zakim> sorry, Curt, I do not recognize a party named '+1.202.223.aabb'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Curt, I do not recognize a party named '+1.202.223.aabb'

17:17:09 <Zakim> -??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P9

17:17:16 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

17:17:21 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

17:17:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-minutes.html pgroth

17:17:21 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

17:17:25 <pgroth> trackbot, end telecon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telecon

17:17:25 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

17:17:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.443.708.aaaa, [IPcaller], Luc, +1.202.223.aabb, MacTed, Satya_Sahoo, tlebo, jcheney, sandro, khalidbelhajjame, +49.302.093.aacc, olaf,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been +1.443.708.aaaa, [IPcaller], Luc, +1.202.223.aabb, MacTed, Satya_Sahoo, tlebo, jcheney, sandro, khalidbelhajjame, +49.302.093.aacc, olaf,

17:17:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

17:17:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-minutes.html trackbot

17:17:28 <Zakim> ... [ISI], +1.518.633.aadd, +44.789.470.aaee, SamCoppens, +1.518.608.aagg, +44.789.470.aahh, +44.789.470.aaii, GK

Zakim IRC Bot: ... [ISI], +1.518.633.aadd, +44.789.470.aaee, SamCoppens, +1.518.608.aagg, +44.789.470.aahh, +44.789.470.aaii, GK

17:17:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

17:17:29 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-actions.rdf :

17:17:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Satya to address issues in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm [1]

ACTION: Satya to address issues in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm [1]

17:17:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-irc#T16-15-32

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-irc#T16-15-32



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