edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 10 November 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.10
Seen
Christine Runnegar, Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, James Cheney, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Stephen Cresswell, Timothy Lebo, Vinh Nguyen, Yogesh Simmhan
Regrets
Christine Runnegar
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Paolo Missier, Simon Miles
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Use a single notion of attribute-value pairs to character�ize entities, activities, use and generation. As a result, drop the notion of qualifier and its associated production. link
Topics
  1. Admin

    Primer has a good start. Group is looking to finish the first draft by the end of the week. It may not be completely in sink with PROV-O as that is still changing, in particular, with respect to accounts.

  2. PAQ

    Editors gave an overview of the updates. Editors believe it is ready to go to FPWD have asked for feedback before a vote next week.

  3. Update on PROV-O

    PROV-O is mostly done. Needs some final details to be sorted out with the use of n-ary relations.

  4. PROV-XML

    Discussed the need for PROV-XML. Clarified the role in the charter that prov-xml should be a "native" xml friendly serialization, not RDF/XML. James Cheney, Luc Moreau and Stephan Zednik would be interested in helping with it. Luc noted possible outside interest in prov-xml. The group showed interest in a possible native json serialization.

  5. PROV-Semantics

    Discussion on role of prov-semantics. Two possible roles: 1) to have a well defined mathematical model underlying PROV-DM 2) to facilitate mapping between serializations and the PROV-DM. Support was shown for a mathematical model to help clarify PROV-DM semantics.

  6. Prov-DM

    Approved a proposal to use a single notion of attribute-value pairs. Discussed various forums of derivation and how to simplify it in the data model.

15:47:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-prov-irc

15:47:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:47:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

15:47:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

15:47:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:47:29 <trackbot> Date: 10 November 2011
15:47:38 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

15:47:38 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes

15:47:57 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.10
15:48:13 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
15:48:41 <pgroth> Regrets: Christine Runnegar
15:49:12 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

15:54:01 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

15:54:08 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

15:56:31 <pgroth> any volunteers for scribe?

Paul Groth: any volunteers for scribe?

15:56:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:56:55 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

15:56:55 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

15:58:19 <Zakim> +??P55

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P55

15:58:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:58:48 <Zakim> +??P56

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P56

16:00:07 <Paolo> zakim, ??P55 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P55 is me

16:00:07 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

16:00:19 <pgroth> Scribe: Paolo

(Scribe set to Paolo Missier)

16:00:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

16:00:41 <Zakim> +??P64

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P64

16:00:48 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

16:00:53 <jcheney> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me

James Cheney: Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me

16:00:53 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

16:01:01 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.238.059.aaaa

16:01:17 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aabb

16:01:20 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me

16:01:20 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

16:01:41 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P64 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P64 is me

16:01:41 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

16:02:05 <Zakim> +[ISI]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[ISI]

16:02:19 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone?

Timothy Lebo: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:02:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, pgroth, Paolo, ??P56, [IPcaller], jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, Satya_Sahoo, Luc, +1.315.330.aabb, [ISI]

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, pgroth, Paolo, ??P56, [IPcaller], jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, Satya_Sahoo, Luc, +1.315.330.aabb, [ISI]

16:02:46 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

16:02:49 <tlebo> Zakim, aabb is tlebo

Timothy Lebo: Zakim, aabb is tlebo

16:02:56 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

16:03:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

16:03:22 <Zakim> +??P80

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P80

16:03:29 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P80 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P80 is me

16:03:29 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

16:03:57 <pgroth> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: Primer has a good start. Group is looking to finish the first draft by the end of the week. It may not be completely in sink with PROV-O as that is still changing, in particular, with respect to accounts.

16:04:02 <GK> zakim, who is on the phone?

Graham Klyne: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:04:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, pgroth, Paolo, ??P56, [IPcaller], jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, Luc, tlebo, [ISI], [IPcaller.a], khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, pgroth, Paolo, ??P56, [IPcaller], jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, Luc, tlebo, [ISI], [IPcaller.a], khalidbelhajjame

16:04:12 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-11-03

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-11-03

16:04:18 <pgroth> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Nov. 3 telecon

Paul Groth: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Nov. 3 telecon

16:04:19 <saty> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

16:04:23 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

16:04:29 <Curt> 0 (did not attend)

Curt Tilmes: 0 (did not attend)

16:04:30 <khalidbelhajjame> +0 (was not in last week)

Khalid Belhajjame: +0 (was not in last week)

16:04:30 <Paolo> +1

+1

16:04:41 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

16:04:43 <GK> Khalid, are you sure ??PP80 is you?

Graham Klyne: Khalid, are you sure ??PP80 is you?

16:04:43 <StephenCresswell> +1

Stephen Cresswell: +1

16:04:47 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

16:04:56 <khalidbelhajjame> @Graham, not sure

Khalid Belhajjame: @Graham, not sure

16:05:07 <pgroth> ACCEPTED Nov 3. 2011 minutes

Paul Groth: ACCEPTED Nov 3. 2011 minutes

16:05:17 <pgroth>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

16:05:27 <khalidbelhajjame> @Graham, I will leave the call and come back and see

Khalid Belhajjame: @Graham, I will leave the call and come back and see

16:05:34 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.a]

16:06:10 <Paolo> Tim's action presumably taken care of

Tim's action presumably taken care of

16:06:19 <Paolo> Paul completed his action (42)

Paul completed his action (42)

16:06:24 <Paolo> Tim's action was 41 -- closed

Tim's action was 41 -- closed

16:06:28 <Zakim> +Yogesh_Simmhan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh_Simmhan

16:06:32 <pgroth> Reminder F2F2 Poll: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46974/f2f2_options/

Paul Groth: Reminder F2F2 Poll: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46974/f2f2_options/

16:06:49 <Zakim> +??P72

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P72

16:06:49 <Paolo> we are skipping action 40 at this time

we are skipping ACTION-40 at this time

16:06:53 <GK> zakim, ??pp80 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??pp80 is me

16:06:53 <Zakim> sorry, GK, I do not recognize a party named '??pp80'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, GK, I do not recognize a party named '??pp80'

16:07:06 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P72 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P72 is me

16:07:06 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

16:07:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

16:07:13 <GK> zakim, pp80 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, pp80 is me

16:07:13 <Zakim> sorry, GK, I do not recognize a party named 'pp80'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, GK, I do not recognize a party named 'pp80'

16:07:25 <dgarijo> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me

16:07:25 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

16:07:28 <GK> zakim, who is on the phone?

Graham Klyne: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:07:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, pgroth, Paolo, ??P56, [IPcaller], jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, Luc, tlebo, [ISI], khalidbelhajjame, Yogesh_Simmhan, khalidbelhajjame.a, dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, pgroth, Paolo, ??P56, [IPcaller], jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, Luc, tlebo, [ISI], khalidbelhajjame, Yogesh_Simmhan, khalidbelhajjame.a, dgarijo

16:07:39 <Paolo> TOPIC PROV-PRIMER

TOPIC PROV-PRIMER

<pgroth> Summary: Primer has a good start. Group is looking to finish the first draft by the end of the week. It may not be completely in sink with PROV-O as that is still changing, in particular, with respect to accounts.
16:08:18 <Paolo> smiles: good contribs but still got gaps

Simon Miles: good contribs but still got gaps

16:08:35 <Paolo> smiles: Stephan , Paolo, Yolanda to contribute to a complete draft by this week

Simon Miles: Stephan , Paolo, Yolanda to contribute to a complete draft by this week

16:08:53 <Paolo> smiles: so that the WG can start commenting

Simon Miles: so that the WG can start commenting

16:09:02 <Paolo> smiles: Stephan creating turtle examples

Simon Miles: Stephan creating turtle examples

16:09:08 <Paolo> smiles: smiles to complete the intro

Simon Miles: smiles to complete the intro

16:09:11 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

16:09:18 <Paolo> smiles: Yolanda to give it a check

Simon Miles: Yolanda to give it a check

16:09:36 <Paolo> smiles: then Paolo to translate turtle -> ASN

Simon Miles: then Paolo to translate turtle -> ASN

16:09:59 <Paolo> smiles:: accounts still missing. That's because it hasn't settled in PROV-O

Simon Miles: : accounts still missing. That's because it hasn't settled in PROV-O

16:10:06 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

16:10:06 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:10:18 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame

Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame

16:10:19 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.633.aacc

16:10:32 <tlebo> Account will be defined :-)

Timothy Lebo: Account will be defined :-)

16:10:36 <Paolo> Khalid: on account. PROV-O will not have explicit account, as named graphs will be used

Khalid Belhajjame: on account. PROV-O will not have explicit account, as named graphs will be used

16:10:52 <tlebo> Account will be part of the ontology :-)

Timothy Lebo: Account will be part of the ontology :-)

16:11:12 <Paolo> smiles: still, some encoding of them is needed for the examples

Simon Miles: still, some encoding of them is needed for the examples

16:11:15 <GK> q+ to note that ORE uses trix graph as a base class for ORE resource map, which also is a named graph

Graham Klyne: q+ to note that ORE uses trix graph as a base class for ORE resource map, which also is a named graph

16:11:22 <Zakim> + +1.937.343.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.937.343.aadd

16:11:23 <pgroth> Zakim, who's loud?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's loud?

16:11:24 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pgroth.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, pgroth.

16:11:51 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me

16:11:52 <Zakim> sorry, Luc, I do not recognize a party named '+44.238.059.aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Luc, I do not recognize a party named '+44.238.059.aaaa'

16:11:53 <Paolo> Tim: wil use named grpahs, but also RDF to express accounts. So it's going to be both

Timothy Lebo: wil use named graphs, but also RDF to express accounts. So it's going to be both

16:12:04 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:12:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, pgroth, Paolo, ??P56, [IPcaller], jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, Luc, tlebo, [ISI], khalidbelhajjame, Yogesh_Simmhan, khalidbelhajjame.a, dgarijo, Sandro,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt_Tilmes, pgroth, Paolo, ??P56, [IPcaller], jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, Luc, tlebo, [ISI], khalidbelhajjame, Yogesh_Simmhan, khalidbelhajjame.a, dgarijo, Sandro,

16:12:05 <Paolo> s/grpahs/graphs
16:12:07 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aacc, +1.937.343.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.518.633.aacc, +1.937.343.aadd

16:12:20 <Vinh> zakim, +1.937.343.aadd is me

Vinh Nguyen: zakim, +1.937.343.aadd is me

16:12:21 <Zakim> +Vinh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Vinh; got it

16:12:43 <pgroth> ack gk

Paul Groth: ack gk

16:12:43 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to note that ORE uses trix graph as a base class for ORE resource map, which also is a named graph

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to note that ORE uses trix graph as a base class for ORE resource map, which also is a named graph

16:12:43 <Luc> ... and also in prov-dm, accounts need to be finalized

Luc Moreau: ... and also in prov-dm, accounts need to be finalized

16:12:56 <Paolo> pgroth: fine, but work is still ongoing in PROV-O re: accounts, which explains why they are not in the primer at tis time

Paul Groth: fine, but work is still ongoing in PROV-O re: accounts, which explains why they are not in the primer at this time

16:13:01 <Paolo> s/tis/this
16:13:05 <tlebo> ORE - good pointer?

Timothy Lebo: ORE - good pointer?

16:13:11 <tlebo> thx!

Timothy Lebo: thx!

16:13:17 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:13:37 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:13:41 <Paolo> smiles:  distribution of first draft expected by start of next week

Simon Miles: distribution of first draft expected by start of next week

16:13:42 <tlebo> A rough example of account modeling: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/3ba83e9ffa92/ontology/components/Account/different-accounts-can-include-the-same-entity.ttl

Timothy Lebo: A rough example of account modeling: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/3ba83e9ffa92/ontology/components/Account/different-accounts-can-include-the-same-entity.ttl

16:13:48 <pgroth> Topic: PAQ

2. PAQ

Summary: Editors gave an overview of the updates. Editors believe it is ready to go to FPWD have asked for feedback before a vote next week.

<pgroth> Summary: Editors gave an overview of the updates. Editors believe it is ready to go to FPWD have asked for feedback before a vote next week.
16:13:56 <smiles> @Paolo shall I take over scribing now?

Simon Miles: @Paolo shall I take over scribing now?

16:14:10 <Paolo> @smiles:  yes please, much appreciated :-)

@smiles: yes please, much appreciated :-)

16:14:14 <smiles> Scribe: smiles

(Scribe set to Simon Miles)

16:14:42 <Paolo> I will do my other half next time :-)

Paolo Missier: I will do my other half next time :-)

16:14:46 <smiles> GK: Updated PAQ, as agreed for FPWD

Graham Klyne: Updated PAQ, as agreed for FPWD

16:15:01 <smiles> GK: Note, not yet fully proof read

Graham Klyne: Note, not yet fully proof read

16:15:43 <smiles> pgroth: Big changes are to align the PAQ with the terminology in DM, e.g. entity

Paul Groth: Big changes are to align the PAQ with the terminology in DM, e.g. entity

16:16:06 <smiles> ... and a decision about the format of headers for retrieving provenance info for a resource

... and a decision about the format of headers for retrieving provenance info for a resource

16:16:29 <smiles> ... and added a section to deal with incremental access to large amounts of provenance

... and added a section to deal with incremental access to large amounts of provenance

16:16:46 <smiles> ... Also compacted things, referring to DM

... Also compacted things, referring to DM

16:16:55 <smiles> ... Everyone please look at the document

... Everyone please look at the document

16:17:12 <smiles> GK: Closed issue tags in document but not tracker

Graham Klyne: Closed issue tags in document but not tracker

16:17:44 <smiles> ... Comment from Yogesh about not guaranteed to get identifier of entity in provenance data, so added note on this

... Comment from Yogesh about not guaranteed to get identifier of entity in provenance data, so added note on this

16:17:49 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:18:05 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:18:27 <smiles> Luc: Decide in next telecon whether to release FPWD?

Luc Moreau: Decide in next telecon whether to release FPWD?

16:18:42 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:18:43 <smiles> pgroth: Yes, would be good to know if there are any show stoppers by next telecon

Paul Groth: Yes, would be good to know if there are any show stoppers by next telecon

16:18:44 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:18:48 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:18:56 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

16:19:02 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

16:19:16 <smiles> tlebo: Will predicate hasProvenance be encoded in Prov-O?

Timothy Lebo: Will predicate hasProvenance be encoded in Prov-O?

16:19:52 <smiles> GK: Was included for discussion, but yes need to agree with other task forces (namespace, name, inclusion in ontology)

Graham Klyne: Was included for discussion, but yes need to agree with other task forces (namespace, name, inclusion in ontology)

16:20:08 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:20:25 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

16:20:32 <smiles> tlebo: Will start developing inclusion of hasProvenance into ontology

Timothy Lebo: Will start developing inclusion of hasProvenance into ontology

16:20:42 <smiles> satya: What is domain and range?

Satya Sahoo: What is domain and range?

16:20:53 <tlebo> owl Thing.

Timothy Lebo: owl Thing.

16:20:58 <smiles> GK: Domain is entity, range to be decided (account?)

Graham Klyne: Domain is entity, range to be decided (account?)

16:21:08 <tlebo> ProvenanceContainer?

Timothy Lebo: ProvenanceContainer?

16:21:37 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:21:42 <smiles> satya: What provenance is may change across applications, need to assert about account or container itself

Satya Sahoo: What provenance is may change across applications, need to assert about account or container itself

16:21:46 <smiles> GK: Yes

Graham Klyne: Yes

16:22:00 <smiles> GK: Account or container is itself an entity

Graham Klyne: Account or container is itself an entity

16:22:00 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:22:00 <satya> @GK +1 for that point

Satya Sahoo: @GK +1 for that point

16:22:20 <dgarijo> @GK that sound good to me too

Daniel Garijo: @GK that sound good to me too

16:22:21 <pgroth> Topic: Update on PROV-O

3. Update on PROV-O

Summary: PROV-O is mostly done. Needs some final details to be sorted out with the use of n-ary relations.

<pgroth> Summary: PROV-O is mostly done. Needs some final details to be sorted out with the use of n-ary relations.
16:22:56 <smiles> satya: Fleshed out details on how to add qualifier info to predicates, modelled under class QualifiedInvolvement

Satya Sahoo: Fleshed out details on how to add qualifier info to predicates, modelled under class QualifiedInvolvement

16:23:16 <smiles> satya: Outstanding issues: need good name for QI to entity link

Satya Sahoo: Outstanding issues: need good name for QI to entity link

16:23:41 <tlebo> (we have been running with prov:entity, but prov:entityInQualification was suggested and sounds reasonable)

Timothy Lebo: (we have been running with prov:entity, but prov:entityInQualification was suggested and sounds reasonable)

16:23:44 <Paolo> apologies for checking out now --

Paolo Missier: apologies for checking out now --

16:23:46 <smiles> ... inference rules to apply to non-binary properties with new classes

... inference rules to apply to non-binary properties with new classes

16:24:03 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

16:24:24 <smiles> ... need clarifications on DM: can roles be associated with both entities and process executions?

... need clarifications on DM: can roles be associated with both entities and process executions?

16:24:35 <smiles> ... at the moment only one or the other

... at the moment only one or the other

16:25:03 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:25:05 <smiles> ... Moving forward, all terms except "entity in role" modelled, so working towards FPWD

... Moving forward, all terms except "entity in role" modelled, so working towards FPWD

16:25:06 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:25:09 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:25:13 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:25:53 <tlebo> The proposal is at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Qualifed_Involvements_in_PROV-O

Timothy Lebo: The proposal is at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Qualifed_Involvements_in_PROV-O

16:25:55 <smiles> satya: n-ary properties modelled as classes, can say 8 as denominator in division process

Satya Sahoo: n-ary properties modelled as classes, can say 8 as denominator in division process

16:26:05 <smiles> ... but cannot model role of process execution

... but cannot model role of process execution

16:26:15 <zednik> the process execution has a role (part or function) in itself?

Stephan Zednik: the process execution has a role (part or function) in itself?

16:26:19 <smiles> Luc: Please send an email explaining problem with example

Luc Moreau: Please send an email explaining problem with example

16:26:23 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:26:27 <GK> That ORE reference I mentioned for mentioning graphs in an ontology:  http://www.openarchives.org/ore/1.0/vocabulary.html#rem

Graham Klyne: That ORE reference I mentioned for mentioning graphs in an ontology: http://www.openarchives.org/ore/1.0/vocabulary.html#rem

16:26:29 <smiles> satya: sure

Satya Sahoo: sure

16:26:32 <tlebo> Thanks!

Timothy Lebo: Thanks!

16:26:54 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-XML

4. PROV-XML

Summary: Discussed the need for PROV-XML. Clarified the role in the charter that prov-xml should be a "native" xml friendly serialization, not RDF/XML. James Cheney, Luc Moreau and Stephan Zednik would be interested in helping with it. Luc noted possible outside interest in prov-xml. The group showed interest in a possible native json serialization.

<pgroth> Summary: Discussed the need for PROV-XML. Clarified the role in the charter that prov-xml should be a "native" xml friendly serialization, not RDF/XML. James Cheney, Luc Moreau and Stephan Zednik would be interested in helping with it. Luc noted possible outside interest in prov-xml. The group showed interest in a possible native json serialization.
16:27:16 <smiles> pgroth: In charter, have notion of natural XML serialisation of the DM

Paul Groth: In charter, have notion of natural XML serialisation of the DM

16:27:34 <smiles> ... due at 18 months, but can start thinking about now

... due at 18 months, but can start thinking about now

16:27:49 <smiles> ... want to know who is interested in starting to produce this serialisation

... want to know who is interested in starting to produce this serialisation

16:28:05 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

16:28:08 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:28:10 <jcheney> q+

James Cheney: q+

16:28:10 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:28:17 <pgroth> ack jcheney

Paul Groth: ack jcheney

16:28:55 <smiles> jcheney: Some people previously said that RDF can be expressed in XML, but sounds like in charter going straight from DM to XML

James Cheney: Some people previously said that RDF can be expressed in XML, but sounds like in charter going straight from DM to XML

16:29:03 <smiles> ... would be interested in being involved in some way

... would be interested in being involved in some way

16:29:32 <smiles> pgroth: Yes, in charter, straight from DM to XML, RDF/XML is not pretty XML

Paul Groth: Yes, in charter, straight from DM to XML, RDF/XML is not pretty XML

16:29:44 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:29:58 <GK> Presumable, want something that plays well with XML tooling, which RDF/XML does not.

Graham Klyne: Presumable, want something that plays well with XML tooling, which RDF/XML does not.

16:30:06 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:30:11 <smiles> jcheney: We should agree that this is indeed what is intended

James Cheney: We should agree that this is indeed what is intended

16:30:17 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:31:09 <smiles> Luc: Interested in this, have had questions from users on OPM XML and interested in Prov XML schema, and they may be interested in contributing

Luc Moreau: Interested in this, have had questions from users on OPM XML and interested in Prov XML schema, and they may be interested in contributing

16:31:26 <smiles> ... Has very early attempt at XML schema

... Has very early attempt at XML schema

16:31:29 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:31:50 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:31:54 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:32:03 <smiles> pgroth: 2 people interested, maybe need to bring in other experts from outside

Paul Groth: 2 people interested, maybe need to bring in other experts from outside

16:32:15 <zednik> xml - I may be able to help, but will not be able to lead

Stephan Zednik: xml - I may be able to help, but will not be able to lead

16:32:32 <GK> I might be interested in JSON :)

Graham Klyne: I might be interested in JSON :)

16:32:47 <khalidbelhajjame> Me too Graham

Khalid Belhajjame: Me too Graham

16:32:52 <smiles> Luc: questionnaire circulated showed interest in many serialisations, so some may be able to help with XML

Luc Moreau: questionnaire circulated showed interest in many serialisations, so some may be able to help with XML

16:32:52 <Curt> +JSON

Curt Tilmes: +JSON

16:33:07 <smiles> zednik: Yes, users interested in XML

Stephan Zednik: Yes, users interested in XML

16:33:15 <smiles> ... close to that of RDF

... close to that of RDF

16:33:24 <GK> (Even Zakim is interested, apparently :) )

Graham Klyne: (Even Zakim is interested, apparently :) )

16:33:25 <smiles> Luc: go back to those people?

Luc Moreau: go back to those people?

16:33:50 <smiles> Luc: First go back to those people for feedback

Luc Moreau: First go back to those people for feedback

16:33:51 <tlebo> @gk, could you write something at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts#Graham.27s_OBE_note ?

Timothy Lebo: @gk, could you write something at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts#Graham.27s_OBE_note ?

16:33:58 <smiles> zednik: will do so

Stephan Zednik: will do so

16:34:15 <smiles> Luc: may not be able to list on Wiki or email for privacy

Luc Moreau: may not be able to list on Wiki or email for privacy

16:34:38 <smiles> zednik: some users agreed to have feedback shared, can put document up on protected W3C site

Stephan Zednik: some users agreed to have feedback shared, can put document up on protected W3C site

16:34:43 <GK> @tlebo, sure

Graham Klyne: @tlebo, sure

16:35:00 <smiles> pgroth: Saw JSON interest on IRC, are people interest?

Paul Groth: Saw JSON interest on IRC, are people interest?

16:35:02 <pgroth> Interest in JSON note?

Paul Groth: Interest in JSON note?

16:35:15 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

16:35:16 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

16:35:17 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

16:35:21 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

16:35:23 <jcheney> +0.5 (what would we say exactly?)

James Cheney: +0.5 (what would we say exactly?)

16:35:23 <GK> +1 ... but not in a rush to do it

Graham Klyne: +1 ... but not in a rush to do it

16:35:25 <Curt> We use JSON internally, but I think RDF makes a better standard for interchange.

Curt Tilmes: We use JSON internally, but I think RDF makes a better standard for interchange.

16:35:27 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

16:35:36 <dgarijo> +0

Daniel Garijo: +0

16:35:52 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:36:01 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-Semantics

5. PROV-Semantics

Summary: Discussion on role of prov-semantics. Two possible roles: 1) to have a well defined mathematical model underlying PROV-DM 2) to facilitate mapping between serializations and the PROV-DM. Support was shown for a mathematical model to help clarify PROV-DM semantics.

<pgroth> Summary: Discussion on role of prov-semantics. Two possible roles: 1) to have a well defined mathematical model underlying PROV-DM 2) to facilitate mapping between serializations and the PROV-DM. Support was shown for a mathematical model to help clarify PROV-DM semantics.
16:36:37 <smiles> pgroth: Deliverable on semantics in charter, but up to us to decide what is usable and interesting for standard

Paul Groth: Deliverable on semantics in charter, but up to us to decide what is usable and interesting for standard

16:36:54 <jcheney> Two possibilities (not mutually exclusive):

James Cheney: Two possibilities (not mutually exclusive):

16:36:59 <GK> q+ to say that I think there's some confusion around DM, ASN and semantics

Graham Klyne: q+ to say that I think there's some confusion around DM, ASN and semantics

16:37:11 <jcheney> 1.  Developing a mathematical model of the "things", "entities", "processes", "events" and other relationships as in the PROV-DM, and explaining the PROV-DM statements in terms of this model. (current strawman)

James Cheney: 1. Developing a mathematical model of the "things", "entities", "processes", "events" and other relationships as in the PROV-DM, and explaining the PROV-DM statements in terms of this model. (current strawman)

16:38:17 <smiles> jcheney: Current strawman generated some discussion, but died down, also needs updating to current DM

James Cheney: Current strawman generated some discussion, but died down, also needs updating to current DM

16:38:52 <smiles> jcheney: Luc said was helpful, can provide some justifications for inferences

James Cheney: Luc said was helpful, can provide some justifications for inferences

16:39:33 <jcheney> 2.  Defining the mapping from PROV-DM to PROV-O (and maybe "PROV-XML") formally, e.g. using a datalog or ML-like notation.

James Cheney: 2. Defining the mapping from PROV-DM to PROV-O (and maybe "PROV-XML") formally, e.g. using a datalog or ML-like notation.

16:40:04 <smiles> jcheney: We might not just want to specify data model and serialisations separately, but also formally how we map from DM to those representations, what it means to be a correct translation

James Cheney: We might not just want to specify data model and serialisations separately, but also formally how we map from DM to those representations, what it means to be a correct translation

16:40:49 <smiles> jcheney: Don't want to have multiple translators between each pair of serialisations, want to translate to Prov-DM and back

James Cheney: Don't want to have multiple translators between each pair of serialisations, want to translate to Prov-DM and back

16:41:07 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:41:12 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

16:41:12 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say that I think there's some confusion around DM, ASN and semantics

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say that I think there's some confusion around DM, ASN and semantics

16:42:14 <smiles> GK: Concerned that there is a confusion between the DM and the RDF representation (as James said, but focus more on concepts)

Graham Klyne: Concerned that there is a confusion between the DM and the RDF representation (as James said, but focus more on concepts)

16:42:49 <smiles> ... concerned about pushing RDF concepts into DM without RDF semantics, better for DM to be above the RDF structure

... concerned about pushing RDF concepts into DM without RDF semantics, better for DM to be above the RDF structure

16:42:56 <satya> @GK +1 for not conflating DM and RDF semantics'

Satya Sahoo: @GK +1 for not conflating DM and RDF semantics'

16:43:16 <smiles> ... formal semantics, independent from OWL, for DM could help with this

... formal semantics, independent from OWL, for DM could help with this

16:43:39 <smiles> ... then may be possible to prove that RDF semantics corresponds to abstract DM

... then may be possible to prove that RDF semantics corresponds to abstract DM

16:43:48 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:43:49 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:43:55 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

16:44:25 <tlebo> +1 for adding a DM semantics. Some of the inferences in the DM writeup are difficult to follow from its narrative.

Timothy Lebo: +1 for adding a DM semantics. Some of the inferences in the DM writeup are difficult to follow from its narrative.

16:44:41 <smiles> satya: Not clear how mapping is related to formal semantics, why not just translation

Satya Sahoo: Not clear how mapping is related to formal semantics, why not just translation

16:44:46 <GK> @satya - isn't this like prrof-theoretic and model-theoretic laters?

Graham Klyne: @satya - isn't this like prrof-theoretic and model-theoretic laters?

16:44:47 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:44:52 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:45:02 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:45:26 <jcheney> q+

James Cheney: q+

16:45:31 <pgroth> ack jcheney

Paul Groth: ack jcheney

16:45:32 <smiles> Luc: James' suggestion 2 is good from interoperability point of view, regardless of whether part of formal semantics activity

Luc Moreau: James' suggestion 2 is good from interoperability point of view, regardless of whether part of formal semantics activity

16:45:48 <tlebo> q+ to ask about mechanics of a concrete language for DM, and it's mapping to XML and RDF and JSON.

Timothy Lebo: q+ to ask about mechanics of a concrete language for DM, and it's mapping to XML and RDF and JSON.

16:46:14 <satya> @GK, I guess but not sure in context of DM and its semantics

Satya Sahoo: @GK, I guess but not sure in context of DM and its semantics

16:46:14 <GK> q+ to respond to luc - I think there's a difference between interop and provable equivalence of representations/transforms

Graham Klyne: q+ to respond to luc - I think there's a difference between interop and provable equivalence of representations/transforms

16:46:37 <smiles> jcheney: We already talk about how to translate ASN to Prov-O in Prov-O document, so thought useful to have more mathematically precise defn of that in formal semantics

James Cheney: We already talk about how to translate ASN to Prov-O in Prov-O document, so thought useful to have more mathematically precise defn of that in formal semantics

16:47:02 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

16:47:02 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to ask about mechanics of a concrete language for DM, and it's mapping to XML and RDF and JSON.

Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to ask about mechanics of a concrete language for DM, and it's mapping to XML and RDF and JSON.

16:47:03 <satya> @James - I think we need it

Satya Sahoo: @James - I think we need it

16:47:08 <smiles> ... if we have one deliverable of formalisation, then a formal mapping to serialisation should go there

... if we have one deliverable of formalisation, then a formal mapping to serialisation should go there

16:47:45 <smiles> tlebo: How does mechanics of formal semantics work? How different to, more precise than the serialisations?

Timothy Lebo: How does mechanics of formal semantics work? How different to, more precise than the serialisations?

16:48:17 <satya> @James - In addition, as WG we have the responsibility for defining the mappings between the different representations (DM, PROV-O, XML, JSON)

Satya Sahoo: @James - In addition, as WG we have the responsibility for defining the mappings between the different representations (DM, PROV-O, XML, JSON)

16:48:54 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

16:49:02 <smiles> jcheney: First thought of what goes in formal semantics is like RDF semantics, e.g. what you can write in the language

James Cheney: First thought of what goes in formal semantics is like RDF semantics, e.g. what you can write in the language

16:49:07 <Paolo> zakim, ??P2 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P2 is me

16:49:07 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

16:49:30 <tlebo> what do you mean by "scope" :-)

Timothy Lebo: what do you mean by "scope" :-)

16:49:45 <tlebo> naming or account partitioning

Timothy Lebo: naming or account partitioning

16:50:02 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:50:34 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:50:44 <smiles> ... If we have semantics abstracts from what you have to write down, then can express self-consistency of scoping rules etc..

... If we have semantics abstracts from what you have to write down, then can express self-consistency of scoping rules etc..

16:50:56 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

16:50:56 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to respond to luc - I think there's a difference between interop and provable equivalence of representations/transforms

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to respond to luc - I think there's a difference between interop and provable equivalence of representations/transforms

16:51:37 <smiles> GK: In SW area, model theoretic semantics maps OWL/RDF expressions to objects in domain of discourse (set theory)

Graham Klyne: In SW area, model theoretic semantics maps OWL/RDF expressions to objects in domain of discourse (set theory)

16:52:28 <smiles> GK: With regards to interoperability, difference between demonstrating interoperability and formally proving equivalence

Graham Klyne: With regards to interoperability, difference between demonstrating interoperability and formally proving equivalence

16:53:07 <smiles> ... Pat Hayes formal semantics of RDF is a useful intro to model theoretic semantics

... Pat Hayes formal semantics of RDF is a useful intro to model theoretic semantics

16:53:08 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

16:54:14 <smiles> satya: Important to define mappings from DM to serialisations, but how necessary to define semantics of DM/ASN itself? Is outcome that we are defining a new language, ASN?

Satya Sahoo: Important to define mappings from DM to serialisations, but how necessary to define semantics of DM/ASN itself? Is outcome that we are defining a new language, ASN?

16:54:23 <Luc> we would give the semantics of DM not ASN!

Luc Moreau: we would give the semantics of DM not ASN!

16:54:29 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:55:08 <smiles> pgroth: Some agreement for a need for formal semantics of DM (suggestion 1 by James)

Paul Groth: Some agreement for a need for formal semantics of DM (suggestion 1 by James)

16:55:51 <Luc> we would give the semantics of DM not ASN!

Luc Moreau: we would give the semantics of DM not ASN!

16:55:51 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:56:07 <Paolo> @satya: the semantics is of the model not the language

Paolo Missier: @satya: the semantics is of the model not the language

16:56:27 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:56:59 <smiles> jcheney: To move forward, first need to catch up with DM and compare with strawman

James Cheney: To move forward, first need to catch up with DM and compare with strawman

16:57:25 <smiles> ... regardless of whether mapping is formal semantics or not, still clear it is useful and focus on first

... regardless of whether mapping is formal semantics or not, still clear it is useful and focus on first

16:57:55 <satya> @Paolo: I will reserve my comments (till we have more details of the formal semantics of DM means)

Satya Sahoo: @Paolo: I will reserve my comments (till we have more details of the formal semantics of DM means)

16:57:55 <GK> James mentioned a datalog approach: I think that could be used to build in formal semantics from FoL - for which there exists a model theory.

Graham Klyne: James mentioned a datalog approach: I think that could be used to build in formal semantics from FoL - for which there exists a model theory.

16:58:11 <satya> @GK, ok that makes sense

Satya Sahoo: @GK, ok that makes sense

16:58:22 <smiles> ... Also happy for anyone interested to be involved, starting with mapping from Prov-DM to Prov-O

... Also happy for anyone interested to be involved, starting with mapping from Prov-DM to Prov-O

16:58:22 <GK> There was a proposal by R V Guha and (I think) Pat Hayes, many years ago, to do something sikilar for RDF.

Graham Klyne: There was a proposal by R V Guha and (I think) Pat Hayes, many years ago, to do something sikilar for RDF.

16:58:22 <satya> @James - I can help you with that

Satya Sahoo: @James - I can help you with that

16:58:45 <pgroth> TOPIC: Prov-DM

6. Prov-DM

Summary: Approved a proposal to use a single notion of attribute-value pairs. Discussed various forums of derivation and how to simplify it in the data model.

<pgroth> Summary: Approved a proposal to use a single notion of attribute-value pairs. Discussed various forums of derivation and how to simplify it in the data model.
16:59:06 <pgroth> Proposed: Use a single notion of attribute-value pairs to characterize entities, activities, use and generation. As a result, drop the notion of qualifier and its associated production."

PROPOSED: Use a single notion of attribute-value pairs to characterize entities, activities, use and generation. As a result, drop the notion of qualifier and its associated production."

16:59:23 <Paolo> @satya: set-theoretical interpretation is usually what works with data models

Paolo Missier: @satya: set-theoretical interpretation is usually what works with data models

16:59:35 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Nov/0122.html

Paul Groth: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Nov/0122.html

16:59:54 <GK> +1 (but have separate concern about the phrasing using "characterozation")

Graham Klyne: +1 (but have separate concern about the phrasing using "characterozation")

16:59:57 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

16:59:57 <smiles> pgroth: any objections?

Paul Groth: any objections?

16:59:57 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

17:00:01 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

17:00:04 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

17:00:16 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

17:00:16 <smiles> tlebo: what was the intent of the distinction?

Timothy Lebo: what was the intent of the distinction?

17:00:22 <jcheney> @satya, @paolo: The strawman is an attempt to map PROV-DM in terms of sets/functions.

James Cheney: @satya, @paolo: The strawman is an attempt to map PROV-DM in terms of sets/functions.

17:00:56 <Paolo> good, thanks

Paolo Missier: good, thanks

17:00:59 <smiles> Luc: Attributes were in context of entities, fixed in characterisation interval; relations did not have durations

Luc Moreau: Attributes were in context of entities, fixed in characterisation interval; relations did not have durations

17:01:00 <Zakim> -Yogesh_Simmhan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh_Simmhan

17:01:12 <jcheney> @GK: Yes, datalog is interpretable in terms of FO model theory; however, dealing with things that change over time seem hard to model this way.  Still, datalog good as a lightweight formalism.

James Cheney: @GK: Yes, datalog is interpretable in terms of FO model theory; however, dealing with things that change over time seem hard to model this way. Still, datalog good as a lightweight formalism.

17:01:13 <smiles> ... but distinction did not bring much, so better to merge

... but distinction did not bring much, so better to merge

17:01:37 <GK> @jcheney if functions themselves are sets of pairs, that maybe starts to look like a model theory?

Graham Klyne: @jcheney if functions themselves are sets of pairs, that maybe starts to look like a model theory?

17:01:44 <pgroth> Accepted: Use a single notion of attribute-value pairs to character�ize entities, activities, use and generation. As a result, drop the notion of qualifier and its associated production.

RESOLVED: Use a single notion of attribute-value pairs to character�ize entities, activities, use and generation. As a result, drop the notion of qualifier and its associated production.

17:02:05 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Nov/0087.html

Paul Groth: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Nov/0087.html

17:02:23 <tlebo> Tim's notes on Luc's response: attriubtes on entities (duration, characterization, etc) same for PEs. but for Relations (didn't have durations). ATTRIBUTE-values were for Entity+PEs, NAME-values were on Relations.

Timothy Lebo: Tim's notes on Luc's response: attriubtes on entities (duration, characterization, etc) same for PEs. but for Relations (didn't have durations). ATTRIBUTE-values were for Entity+PEs, NAME-values were on Relations.

17:02:26 <jcheney> @GK: Correct, using functions doesn't take us out of set theory/model theory semantics.

James Cheney: @GK: Correct, using functions doesn't take us out of set theory/model theory semantics.

17:02:52 <satya> @Paul: I also need additional clarification

Satya Sahoo: @Paul: I also need additional clarification

17:02:58 <smiles> pgroth: Fairly well accepted, except for Simon's objection

Paul Groth: Fairly well accepted, except for Simon's objection

17:03:05 <tlebo> q?

Timothy Lebo: q?

17:03:12 <satya> @Paul: I did not have time to respond to this issue

Satya Sahoo: @Paul: I did not have time to respond to this issue

17:03:15 <smiles> Luc: actually very few voted either way

Luc Moreau: actually very few voted either way

17:03:49 <smiles> Luc: we haven't got enough support yet to resolve here, need to understand what Simon is saying

Luc Moreau: we haven't got enough support yet to resolve here, need to understand what Simon is saying

17:04:01 <GK> I was unclear about dependedUpon/eventuallyDerivedFrom distinction.

Graham Klyne: I was unclear about dependedUpon/eventuallyDerivedFrom distinction.

17:04:04 <tlebo> I'm confused by the use of multiple proposals; will try to read and comment on email.

Timothy Lebo: I'm confused by the use of multiple proposals; will try to read and comment on email.

17:04:23 <tlebo> (but I did get the impression that much of those predicates were redundant)

Timothy Lebo: (but I did get the impression that much of those predicates were redundant)

17:04:37 <GK> I think the transitivity issue is a different one

Graham Klyne: I think the transitivity issue is a different one

17:04:38 <smiles> Luc: we need a notion of transitive derivation, good examples of non-transitive when linked to activities, but unclear on wasEventuallyDerivedFrom

Luc Moreau: we need a notion of transitive derivation, good examples of non-transitive when linked to activities, but unclear on wasEventuallyDerivedFrom

17:04:42 <Paolo> general proposal: in addition to recording  objections on the list (which may have veto effect), keep an exact count of the people who vote on the list -- the support to a proposal

Paolo Missier: general proposal: in addition to recording objections on the list (which may have veto effect), keep an exact count of the people who vote on the list -- the support to a proposal

17:05:05 <GK> simplification is good!

Graham Klyne: simplification is good!

17:05:06 <smiles> pgroth: Goal is to simplify

Paul Groth: Goal is to simplify

17:05:10 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

17:05:11 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

17:05:12 <Zakim> -[ISI]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[ISI]

17:05:13 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

17:05:15 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

17:05:17 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

17:05:22 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.633.aacc

17:05:23 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

17:05:33 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

17:05:35 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

17:05:39 <Zakim> -??P56

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P56

17:05:41 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

17:05:52 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

17:05:54 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

17:05:57 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

17:05:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-prov-minutes.html pgroth

17:06:00 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

17:06:04 <Zakim> -Vinh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Vinh

17:06:04 <pgroth> trackbot, end telecon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telecon

17:06:04 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

17:06:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

17:06:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-prov-minutes.html trackbot

17:06:06 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

17:06:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

17:06:06 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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