edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 20 October 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.10.20
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, James Cheney, Kai Eckert, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Reza B'Far, Ryan Golden, Satya Sahoo, Stephen Cresswell, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Yogesh Simmhan, Yolanda Gil
Regrets
Paolo Missier, Reza B'Far, Ryan Golden
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Stephen Cresswell
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics
  1. Admin

    The minutes of last meeting were approved. The only open action is dealt with under agenda item 5. Volunteers are needed to scribe.

  2. PROV-DM FPWD

    The document has been published. There is also a blog post by Ivan Herman. The WG is encouraged to spread the word to other communities, to blog, to tweet (#provwg), and to elicit comments to public-prov-wg@w3.org. Initial feedback is that it is too complex. Although the material may be inherently complex, there were suggestions that the document could be easier to understand if it presents the most commonly-used core material first, and to make some comparison with existing models such as OPM. It was also suggested that more realistic examples should be used instead of ones that seem contrived, and that showing its representation in RDF would help.

  3. Connection Task Force

    Kai reported on the recent Connection TF telcon, discussing what the future role of the TF would be. The proposal is firstly to collect mailing lists of interested communities, and secondly to reach out to specific groups through organising joint telcons involving appropriate WG members. It was agreed that this approach would help towards the Best Practice Cookbook deliverable from the charter, and that it would be preferable to begin that activity when friendlier documents have been produced - which would be around January 2012.

  4. PROV-O

    Tim reported on the RDF-WG F2F meeting. The WG has now resolved to make a distinction between the concepts RDF graph, graph container, and graph serialisation. This is helpful for us, but has led to a mismatch with the work of the SPARQL-WG. More interaction between the three WGs is required to ensure that the distinction is established and maintained. See Tim's explanation on wiki for details. The use of named graphs for accounts depends on this issue.

  5. Update PROV-O

    The status of the PROV-O document was discussed. The general consensus was that the document is ready for release if it contains all of the core concepts of the PROV-DM. It does not have to express all of the constraints at this stage. It should include some explanation of mapping of PROV-DM concepts, and some example of times associated with process executions.

  6. Discussion on Entity Attributes

    Graham reported that he and Jim Myers have reached consensus that having attributes as part of characterisation is worthwhile because it aids interoperability, and that it is not necessary to distinguish characterising and non-characterising attributes. It will be necessary to update document with this.

14:53:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-irc

14:53:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:53:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:53:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:53:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:53:47 <trackbot> Date: 20 October 2011
14:53:55 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:53:56 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started

14:54:11 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.10.20
14:54:15 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:54:22 <pgroth> Scribe: Stephen Cresswell

(Scribe set to Stephen Cresswell)

14:54:41 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

14:55:07 <pgroth> Regrets: Paolo Missier, Reza B'Far, Ryan Golden
14:55:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:55:58 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

14:55:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:56:09 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, [IPCaller] is me

14:56:10 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:56:50 <Zakim> +Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc

14:57:06 <pgroth> hey graham, just out of curiosity why do you also have two irc names?

Paul Groth: hey graham, just out of curiosity why do you also have two irc names?

14:57:51 <GK1> @paul I'm using two machines .. let's me track the IRC while digging around for dicuments, etc. :)

Graham Klyne: @paul I'm using two machines .. let's me track the IRC while digging around for dicuments, etc. :)

14:58:03 <Zakim> +Yogesh_Simmhan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh_Simmhan

14:58:04 <pgroth> cool :-)

Paul Groth: cool :-)

14:58:45 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

14:59:06 <GK> zakim, ??P10 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??P10 is me

14:59:07 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

14:59:11 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

14:59:56 <stain> hi, guys

Stian Soiland-Reyes: hi, guys

15:00:56 <Zakim> + +1.315.723.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.723.aaaa

15:01:09 <GK> Hi Stian

Graham Klyne: Hi Stian

15:01:10 <tlebo> Zakim, aaaa is tlebo

Timothy Lebo: Zakim, aaaa is tlebo

15:01:10 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

15:01:20 <Zakim> +??P26

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26

15:01:22 <Zakim> +stain

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain

15:01:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:01:32 <pgroth> Zakim, who is noisy?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is noisy?

15:01:35 <stain> note to self: always pause between the seven keys

Stian Soiland-Reyes: note to self: always pause between the seven keys

15:01:35 <kai> zakim, +??P26 is probably me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, +??P26 is probably me.

15:01:37 <Zakim> sorry, kai, I do not understand your question

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, kai, I do not understand your question

15:01:42 <Zakim> +[ISI]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[ISI]

15:01:43 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: stain (21%)

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: stain (21%)

15:01:43 <kai> zakim, ??P26 is probably me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P26 is probably me.

15:01:43 <Zakim> +kai?; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kai?; got it

15:01:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

15:01:51 <jcheney> zakim, [IPCaller] is ne

James Cheney: zakim, [IPCaller] is ne

15:01:51 <Zakim> +ne; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ne; got it

15:01:56 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.a]

15:02:09 <Zakim> +??P29

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P29

15:02:15 <stain> @kai does "probably" allow others to override..?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @kai does "probably" allow others to override..?

15:02:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:02:23 <kai> probably ;-)

Kai Eckert: probably ;-)

15:02:44 <dgarijo> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

15:02:44 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:02:48 <kai> Only zakim knows

Kai Eckert: Only zakim knows

15:02:55 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.633.aabb

15:03:03 <pgroth> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: The minutes of last meeting were approved. The only open action is dealt with under agenda item 5. Volunteers are needed to scribe.

<StephenCresswell> summary: The minutes of last meeting were approved.  The only open action is dealt with under agenda item 5.  Volunteers are needed to scribe.
15:03:03 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[OpenLink]

15:03:08 <pgroth> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of Oct 13 telecon

Paul Groth: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of Oct 13 telecon

15:03:13 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

15:03:13 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:03:14 <pgroth>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-10-13

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-10-13

15:03:16 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:03:17 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:03:25 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:03:26 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:03:26 <kai> +1

Kai Eckert: +1

15:03:27 <tlebo> 0 (did not attend)

Timothy Lebo: 0 (did not attend)

15:03:27 <StephenCresswell> +1

+1

15:03:33 <Zakim> +??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35

15:03:34 <jcheney> 0 (dna)

James Cheney: 0 (dna)

15:03:41 <stain> 0 (not read them yet)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: 0 (not read them yet)

15:03:48 <YolandaGil> 0

Yolanda Gil: 0

15:04:00 <pgroth> ACCEPTED Minutes from last week

Paul Groth: ACCEPTED Minutes from last week

15:04:01 <Zakim> +??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37

15:04:02 <GK> 0 (not present)

Graham Klyne: 0 (not present)

15:04:20 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: reviewing action items

Paul Groth: reviewing action items

15:04:44 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes

15:04:52 <StephenCresswell> ... Satya's action item on all items from data model in ontology .. we'll come back to it

... Satya's action item on all items from data model in ontology .. we'll come back to it

15:05:05 <StephenCresswell> ... scribes needed ...

... scribes needed ...

15:05:05 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DM FPWD

2. PROV-DM FPWD

Summary: The document has been published. There is also a blog post by Ivan Herman. The WG is encouraged to spread the word to other communities, to blog, to tweet (#provwg), and to elicit comments to public-prov-wg@w3.org. Initial feedback is that it is too complex. Although the material may be inherently complex, there were suggestions that the document could be easier to understand if it presents the most commonly-used core material first, and to make some comparison with existing models such as OPM. It was also suggested that more realistic examples should be used instead of ones that seem contrived, and that showing its representation in RDF would help.

<StephenCresswell> summary: The document has been published.  There is also a blog post by Ivan Herman.  The WG is encouraged to spread the word to other communities, to blog, to tweet (#provwg), and to elicit comments to public-prov-wg@w3.org.  Initial feedback is that it is too complex.  Although the material may be inherently complex, there were suggestions that the document could be easier to understand if it presents the most commonly-used core material first, and to make some comparison with existing models such as OPM.  It was also suggested that more realistic examples should be used instead of ones that seem contrived, and that showing its representation in RDF would help.
15:05:22 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/10/18/first-draft-of-a-provenance-data-model-published/

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/10/18/first-draft-of-a-provenance-data-model-published/

15:05:26 <dgarijo> Khalid sends regrets

Daniel Garijo: Khalid sends regrets

15:05:28 <StephenCresswell> ... there's a blog post from Ivan

... there's a blog post from Ivan

15:05:35 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/

15:05:47 <StephenCresswell> ... is the official link to use

... is the official link to use

15:05:52 <pgroth> Twitter hashtag: #provwg

Paul Groth: Twitter hashtag: #provwg

15:06:17 <StephenCresswell> ... we want to encourage people to talk about on their blogs etc.

... we want to encourage people to talk about on their blogs etc.

15:06:23 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

15:06:30 <StephenCresswell> ... to get multiple perspectives

... to get multiple perspectives

15:06:40 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:06:43 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:06:45 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:06:49 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:06:51 <StephenCresswell> +q

+q

15:07:10 <pgroth> ack dgarijo

Paul Groth: ack dgarijo

15:07:12 <satya> @Paul: Was there a question for me? Sorry I joined a bit late

Satya Sahoo: @Paul: Was there a question for me? Sorry I joined a bit late

15:07:18 <pgroth> no satya

Paul Groth: no satya

15:07:33 <StephenCresswell> dgarijo: comments said that model was a bit complex, how are we going to make it more simple

Daniel Garijo: comments said that model was a bit complex, how are we going to make it more simple

15:07:44 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: a number of ways

Paul Groth: a number of ways

15:07:46 <pgroth> ack StephenCresswell

Paul Groth: ack StephenCresswell

15:07:47 <GK> q+ to note it may be the /presentation/ is seen as complex

Graham Klyne: q+ to note it may be the /presentation/ is seen as complex

15:08:22 <GK> The comment address should be in the draft

Graham Klyne: The comment address should be in the draft

15:08:35 <dgarijo> maybe more examples? The comments also wanted to see the RDF serialization (prov-o).

Daniel Garijo: maybe more examples? The comments also wanted to see the RDF serialization (prov-o).

15:08:36 <Luc> they can subscribe to the mailing list

Luc Moreau: they can subscribe to the mailing list

15:08:38 <StephenCresswell> where should the comments go?

where should the comments go?

15:08:48 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: to the mailing list

Paul Groth: to the mailing list

15:08:59 <Luc> instructions are at the beginning of document

Luc Moreau: instructions are at the beginning of document

15:09:13 <StephenCresswell> GK: Do they normally have a separate mailing list?

Graham Klyne: Do they normally have a separate mailing list?

15:09:17 <GK> Doc requests comments to public-prov-wg@w3.org

Graham Klyne: Doc requests comments to public-prov-wg@w3.org

15:09:18 <Luc> ... it's standard text from w3c

Luc Moreau: ... it's standard text from w3c

15:09:55 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:09:55 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:09:57 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:09:57 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to note it may be the /presentation/ is seen as complex

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to note it may be the /presentation/ is seen as complex

15:10:03 <satya> @GK: agree

Satya Sahoo: @GK: agree

15:10:05 <stain> @GK +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @GK +1

15:10:08 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:10:18 <StephenCresswell> GK: It may be not the model that is complex, or is it just the presentation of the model that is complex?

Graham Klyne: It may be not the model that is complex, or is it just the presentation of the model that is complex?

15:10:27 <jcheney> +q

James Cheney: +q

15:10:32 <dgarijo> @GK yes, maybe I didn't express myself correctly, sorry.

Daniel Garijo: @GK yes, maybe I didn't express myself correctly, sorry.

15:10:44 <stain> no,  not publiclally subscribable. I was redirected to password-protected   http://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/

Stian Soiland-Reyes: no, not publiclally subscribable. I was redirected to password-protected http://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/

15:10:59 <StephenCresswell> Luc: We have to explore presentation first, and then maybe think about why the model is complex, but maybe it needs to be complex

Luc Moreau: We have to explore presentation first, and then maybe think about why the model is complex, but maybe it needs to be complex

15:11:15 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

15:11:26 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:11:28 <paolo> zakim, ??p12 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??p12 is me

15:11:28 <Zakim> +paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +paolo; got it

15:11:31 <StephenCresswell> ... thinking about starting the data model with the most common relations

... thinking about starting the data model with the most common relations

15:11:37 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P12 (11%), ne (94%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P12 (11%), ne (94%)

15:11:37 <satya> @Luc: +1 we should concentrate on presentation but not try to modify the model itself to make it more readable

Satya Sahoo: @Luc: +1 we should concentrate on presentation but not try to modify the model itself to make it more readable

15:12:01 <stain> @GK just needs some bass

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @GK just needs some bass

15:12:07 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:12:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, pgroth, Luc, Yogesh_Simmhan, GK, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, kai?, stain, ne, [ISI], ??P29, dgarijo, +1.518.633.aabb, MacTed (muted), ??P35, ??P37, Satya_Sahoo,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P3, pgroth, Luc, Yogesh_Simmhan, GK, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, kai?, stain, ne, [ISI], ??P29, dgarijo, +1.518.633.aabb, MacTed (muted), ??P35, ??P37, Satya_Sahoo,

15:12:10 <Zakim> ... paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: ... paolo

15:12:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see dcorsar, vinh, paolo, Lena, Christine, edoardo, Yogesh, YolandaGil, zednik, kai, jcheney, dgarijo, Curt, StephenCresswell, satya, Luc, tlebo, GK, GK1, Zakim, RRSAgent,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dcorsar, vinh, paolo, Lena, Christine, edoardo, Yogesh, YolandaGil, zednik, kai, jcheney, dgarijo, Curt, StephenCresswell, satya, Luc, tlebo, GK, GK1, Zakim, RRSAgent,

15:12:13 <Zakim> ... pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: ... pgroth, MacTed, stain, trackbot, sandro

15:12:34 <stain> > This is a response to a message apparently sent from your address to

Stian Soiland-Reyes: > This is a response to a message apparently sent from your address to

15:12:40 <paolo> +1 for a two-tier dissemination strategy

Paolo Missier: +1 for a two-tier dissemination strategy

15:12:43 <stain> > public-prov-wg@w3.org: Your message has NOT been distributed to the list

Stian Soiland-Reyes: > public-prov-wg@w3.org: Your message has NOT been distributed to the list

15:12:47 <paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:12:49 <stain> so it does not work to email from the outside either

Stian Soiland-Reyes: so it does not work to email from the outside either

15:12:50 <StephenCresswell> jcheney: Paolo was giving view of this at conference, he said it may be good idea to start with a subset of ideas that are familiar through OPM etc.

James Cheney: Paolo was giving view of this at conference, he said it may be good idea to start with a subset of ideas that are familiar through OPM etc.

15:12:50 <StephenCresswell> ... (gone quiet)

... (gone quiet)

15:12:52 <GK> q+ to say that I've been taking a shot at entioty/resource stuff

Graham Klyne: q+ to say that I've been taking a shot at entioty/resource stuff

15:12:56 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:13:01 <pgroth> ack jcheney

Paul Groth: ack jcheney

15:13:05 <StephenCresswell> ... (I didn't hear anything)

... (I didn't hear anything)

15:13:05 <pgroth> ack paolo

Paul Groth: ack paolo

15:13:40 <stain> ah, I just need to say it's allowed in the publication.. then it should be fine to post for outsiders, yes

Stian Soiland-Reyes: ah, I just need to say it's allowed in the publication.. then it should be fine to post for outsiders, yes

15:13:45 <StephenCresswell> Paolo: Make distinction between core concepts and newer things

Paolo Missier: Make distinction between core concepts and newer things

15:14:09 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:14:19 <StephenCresswell> ... people ask how it is different from OPM ... make distinction between top tier and second tier

... people ask how it is different from OPM ... make distinction between top tier and second tier

15:14:23 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:14:23 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say that I've been taking a shot at entioty/resource stuff

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say that I've been taking a shot at entioty/resource stuff

15:14:27 <YolandaGil> +1

Yolanda Gil: +1

15:14:33 <YolandaGil> q+

Yolanda Gil: q+

15:14:40 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

15:14:46 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:14:55 <StephenCresswell> GK: I've been starting to draft something about the issue of relationship between resources and entities, from developer perspective,

Graham Klyne: I've been starting to draft something about the issue of relationship between resources and entities, from developer perspective,

15:15:08 <StephenCresswell> ... intend to contribute

... intend to contribute

15:15:09 <pgroth> ack YolandaGil

Paul Groth: ack YolandaGil

15:15:47 <tlebo> FROM @MacTed ASK WHERE { [ foaf:nick "Tall Ted" ] foaf:holdsAccount [ foaf:accountName "MacTed" ] } . }

Timothy Lebo: FROM @MacTed ASK WHERE { [ foaf:nick "Tall Ted" ] foaf:holdsAccount [ foaf:accountName "MacTed" ] } . }

15:15:48 <StephenCresswell> Yolanda: Was trying extract core ideas to write primer document.

Yolanda Gil: Was trying extract core ideas to write primer document.

15:15:52 <paolo> q?

Paolo Missier: q?

15:15:57 <StephenCresswell> ... some of the examples are hard to relate to

... some of the examples are hard to relate to

15:16:38 <GK> Slightly related to this discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Oct/0156.html

Graham Klyne: Slightly related to this discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Oct/0156.html

15:16:44 <GK> Yolanda +1

Graham Klyne: Yolanda +1

15:16:45 <StephenCresswell> ... some of the the definitions , or how terms are used elsewhere in document, are confusing

... some of the the definitions , or how terms are used elsewhere in document, are confusing

15:17:12 <stain> @YolandaGil +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @YolandaGil +1

15:17:26 <tlebo> +1 to stop making contrived examples when there are many real examples to handle

Timothy Lebo: +1 to stop making contrived examples when there are many real examples to handle

15:17:29 <satya> @Yolanda +1

Satya Sahoo: @Yolanda +1

15:17:39 <StephenCresswell> ... may less contrived, more natural examples, more like the way we would use provenance, would help

... may less contrived, more natural examples, more like the way we would use provenance, would help

15:17:53 <tlebo> attempt of a list http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples

Timothy Lebo: attempt of a list http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples

15:17:54 <dgarijo> @Yolanda +1

Daniel Garijo: @Yolanda +1

15:17:55 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:18:10 <StephenCresswell> ... perhaps end-to-end example using linked data

... perhaps end-to-end example using linked data

15:18:46 <StephenCresswell> pgroth:  Would help to get a reflection of the data model in RDF would help

Paul Groth: Would help to get a reflection of the data model in RDF would help

15:19:00 <GK> @pgroth: +1 helps to see examples in RDF, but these can still look complicated

Graham Klyne: @pgroth: +1 helps to see examples in RDF, but these can still look complicated

15:19:18 <StephenCresswell> ... we should look at smaller things to help people understand what the data model says

... we should look at smaller things to help people understand what the data model says

15:19:20 <satya> @Paul +1 and maybe with an intuitive example will help

Satya Sahoo: @Paul +1 and maybe with an intuitive example will help

15:19:24 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:19:28 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:19:37 <StephenCresswell> ... it's nice to have the RDF as well as abstract syntax

... it's nice to have the RDF as well as abstract syntax

15:20:05 <dgarijo> we have some examples in RDF in the ontology document.

Daniel Garijo: we have some examples in RDF in the ontology document.

15:20:11 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:20:16 <tlebo> RDF/XML :-(

Timothy Lebo: RDF/XML :-(

15:20:17 <StephenCresswell> satya: linked data, bioinformatics, sensor data, has lots of examples

Satya Sahoo: linked data, bioinformatics, sensor data, has lots of examples

15:20:39 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:20:41 <StephenCresswell> ... maybe better than filesystem examples

... maybe better than filesystem examples

15:20:43 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

15:20:45 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q-

15:21:16 <StephenCresswell> pgroth:  We have the example that we all agreed on previously ... data journalism example

Paul Groth: We have the example that we all agreed on previously ... data journalism example

15:21:16 <satya> @Paul: I guess I am saying a non-computer science example may help?

Satya Sahoo: @Paul: I guess I am saying a non-computer science example may help?

15:21:21 <Luc> we have always said this example was a placeholder ... if someone has a better one, than let's use it. The data journalism is too long for prov-dm document.

Luc Moreau: we have always said this example was a placeholder ... if someone has a better one, than let's use it. The data journalism is too long for prov-dm document.

15:21:25 <GK> +1 (need examples that demonstrate simple ideas)

Graham Klyne: +1 (need examples that demonstrate simple ideas)

15:21:51 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:21:53 <StephenCresswell> ... concentrate on some simple things that everyone would need to say  e.g. authorship, quote relation

... concentrate on some simple things that everyone would need to say e.g. authorship, quote relation

15:21:53 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:22:17 <pgroth> Topic: Connection Task Force

3. Connection Task Force

Summary: Kai reported on the recent Connection TF telcon, discussing what the future role of the TF would be. The proposal is firstly to collect mailing lists of interested communities, and secondly to reach out to specific groups through organising joint telcons involving appropriate WG members. It was agreed that this approach would help towards the Best Practice Cookbook deliverable from the charter, and that it would be preferable to begin that activity when friendlier documents have been produced - which would be around January 2012.

<StephenCresswell> summary:  Kai reported on the recent Connection TF telcon, discussing what the future role of the TF would be.  The proposal is firstly to collect mailing lists of interested communities, and secondly to reach out to specific groups through organising joint telcons involving appropriate WG members.  It was agreed that this approach would help towards the Best Practice Cookbook deliverable from the charter, and that it would be preferable to begin that activity when friendlier documents have been produced - which would be around January 2012.
15:22:22 <tlebo> += http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples#Who_is_the_author_of_a_document

Timothy Lebo: += http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_OWL_ontology_component_examples#Who_is_the_author_of_a_document

15:22:22 <satya> We can revisit some of the example scenarios from the PROV XG also

Satya Sahoo: We can revisit some of the example scenarios from the PROV XG also

15:22:41 <tlebo> @satya, pointer to XG's list?

Timothy Lebo: @satya, pointer to XG's list?

15:22:47 <dgarijo> @satya: well, the first one wasn't the data journalism example?

Daniel Garijo: @satya: well, the first one wasn't the data journalism example?

15:22:48 <StephenCresswell> kai: We have telecon discussing what we will do with connection TF,

Kai Eckert: We have telecon discussing what we will do with connection TF,

15:22:54 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:23:01 <StephenCresswell> ... so far we have informal rep ... more or less finished

... so far we have informal rep ... more or less finished

15:23:09 <StephenCresswell> ... it should be a living document

... it should be a living document

15:23:09 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

15:23:21 <StephenCresswell> ... eric and kai will be a contact

... eric and kai will be a contact

15:23:34 <StephenCresswell> ... What will we do next?

... What will we do next?

15:23:45 <dgarijo> @tlebo: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov-20101214/#Analysis_of_The_State_of_the_Art

Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov-20101214/#Analysis_of_The_State_of_the_Art

15:23:53 <StephenCresswell> ... one thing is to identify mailing lists

... one thing is to identify mailing lists

15:23:55 <tlebo> thx

Timothy Lebo: thx

15:24:15 <StephenCresswell> ... we don't want to be seen as the people who actually communicate with all these connections

... we don't want to be seen as the people who actually communicate with all these connections

15:24:24 <satya> @Daniel: agree but maybe we should avoid CS jargon - since many of our targeted users are non-CS

Satya Sahoo: @Daniel: agree but maybe we should avoid CS jargon - since many of our targeted users are non-CS

15:24:29 <StephenCresswell> ... it would just add another step to communications

... it would just add another step to communications

15:24:45 <StephenCresswell> ... We brainstormed on what else we could provide

... We brainstormed on what else we could provide

15:24:51 <dgarijo> @tlebo: 5.3.1, 5.3.2 and 5.3.3 are the 3 3 scenario.

Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: 5.3.1, 5.3.2 and 5.3.3 are the 3 3 scenario.

15:25:05 <StephenCresswell> ... We thought about organising additional telecons

... We thought about organising additional telecons

15:25:25 <StephenCresswell> ... we other groups, e.g. creative commons

... we other groups, e.g. creative commons

15:25:31 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:25:41 <StephenCresswell> ... What does the group think?

... What does the group think?

15:25:44 <dgarijo> @Satya: what does CS mean?

Daniel Garijo: @Satya: what does CS mean?

15:25:55 <satya> @Tim: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Analysis_of_Disease_Outbreak_Scenario

Satya Sahoo: @Tim: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Analysis_of_Disease_Outbreak_Scenario

15:25:58 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: Still a lot to do in engaging with other groups

Paul Groth: Still a lot to do in engaging with other groups

15:26:13 <satya> @daniel: computer science

Satya Sahoo: @daniel: computer science

15:26:14 <Luc> q+ to mention the best practice deliverable

Luc Moreau: q+ to mention the best practice deliverable

15:26:21 <StephenCresswell> ... e.g. kai involved with DC group

... e.g. kai involved with DC group

15:26:26 <dgarijo> @satya: thx!

Daniel Garijo: @satya: thx!

15:26:27 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:26:47 <StephenCresswell> Luc: In charter we have Best Practive deliverable

Luc Moreau: In charter we have Best Practive deliverable

15:27:38 <StephenCresswell> ... would involve technical work on how integrate e.g. creative commons work

... would involve technical work on how integrate e.g. creative commons work

15:27:42 <YolandaGil> +q

Yolanda Gil: +q

15:27:45 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:27:45 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to mention the best practice deliverable

Zakim IRC Bot: Luc, you wanted to mention the best practice deliverable

15:28:05 <StephenCresswell> kai: That's sort of thing what we might discuss on new telcons

Kai Eckert: That's sort of thing what we might discuss on new telcons

15:28:39 <pgroth> ack YolandaGil

Paul Groth: ack YolandaGil

15:28:52 <StephenCresswell> kai: What can be our role where we are not bridge persons?

Kai Eckert: What can be our role where we are not bridge persons?

15:28:56 <Zakim> -stain

Zakim IRC Bot: -stain

15:29:15 <Zakim> +stain

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain

15:29:23 <paolo> have to leave, apologies

Paolo Missier: have to leave, apologies

15:29:42 <Zakim> -paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -paolo

15:29:44 <StephenCresswell> yolanda: There are not many people on connection TF, and it is too daunting to look at technical integration at all these areas ourselves

Yolanda Gil: There are not many people on connection TF, and it is too daunting to look at technical integration at all these areas ourselves

15:30:08 <StephenCresswell> ... we need to set up discussions in these separate areas

... we need to set up discussions in these separate areas

15:30:26 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:31:00 <StephenCresswell> ... telcons would be vehicle to get more people participating, and the outcome from calls would move us towards best practice deliverables

... telcons would be vehicle to get more people participating, and the outcome from calls would move us towards best practice deliverables

15:31:20 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: seems like a good way forwards

Paul Groth: seems like a good way forwards

15:32:12 <StephenCresswell> yolanda: Maybe people will be scared off by prov-dm document, and maybe we should hold off until we have more accessible documents

Yolanda Gil: Maybe people will be scared off by prov-dm document, and maybe we should hold off until we have more accessible documents

15:32:33 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: seems reasonable to wait for primer etc.

Paul Groth: seems reasonable to wait for primer etc.

15:32:40 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:32:53 <Luc> we should use the w3c teleconference system for those calls, and we need to book them ahead

Luc Moreau: we should use the w3c teleconference system for those calls, and we need to book them ahead

15:33:05 <Luc> +1 for January

Luc Moreau: +1 for January

15:33:14 <StephenCresswell> yolanda: maybe we can schedule for later ... e.g. December, January

Yolanda Gil: maybe we can schedule for later ... e.g. December, January

15:33:24 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-O

4. PROV-O

Summary: Tim reported on the RDF-WG F2F meeting. The WG has now resolved to make a distinction between the concepts RDF graph, graph container, and graph serialisation. This is helpful for us, but has led to a mismatch with the work of the SPARQL-WG. More interaction between the three WGs is required to ensure that the distinction is established and maintained. See Tim's explanation on wiki for details. The use of named graphs for accounts depends on this issue.

<StephenCresswell> summary: Tim reported on the RDF-WG F2F meeting.  The WG has now resolved to make a distinction between the concepts RDF graph, graph container, and graph serialisation.  This is helpful for us, but has led to a mismatch with the work of the SPARQL-WG.  More interaction between the three WGs is required to ensure that the distinction is established and maintained.  See Tim's explanation on wiki for details.  The use of named graphs for accounts depends on this issue.
15:33:33 <StephenCresswell> pgroth:  January seems best.

Paul Groth: January seems best.

15:33:45 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Reflections_from_RDF-WG_F2F2 : one good (3 terms), two bad (conflating GraphContainer and Graph; sd:name doesn't identify), one opportunity (reconciling SPARQL-WG, RDF-WG, PROV-WG)

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Reflections_from_RDF-WG_F2F2 : one good (3 terms), two bad (conflating GraphContainer and Graph; sd:name doesn't identify), one opportunity (reconciling SPARQL-WG, RDF-WG, PROV-WG)

15:34:26 <StephenCresswell> tlebo: Some feedback on F2F (named graphs)

Timothy Lebo: Some feedback on F2F (named graphs)

15:34:42 <StephenCresswell> ... they have resolved to distinguish

... they have resolved to distinguish

15:34:51 <StephenCresswell> graph containers and graph serialisations

graph containers and graph serialisations

15:34:58 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_named_graphs_to_model_Accounts

15:35:30 <StephenCresswell> ... the clear distinction will help proposal

... the clear distinction will help proposal

15:35:51 <StephenCresswell> ... they have some problem with the SPARQL WG

... they have some problem with the SPARQL WG

15:36:20 <StephenCresswell> ... vocabularies used to identify graph doesn't identify graph container

... vocabularies used to identify graph doesn't identify graph container

15:36:30 <StephenCresswell> ... needs to be solved in SPARQL WG

... needs to be solved in SPARQL WG

15:36:36 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:37:03 <StephenCresswell> pgroth:  Any impression on whether we just have to wait?

Paul Groth: Any impression on whether we just have to wait?

15:37:16 <StephenCresswell> tlebo: We need to be more proactive than that

Timothy Lebo: We need to be more proactive than that

15:37:43 <satya> @Tim: thanks! The distinction between g-snap and g-box seems to be special importance to this WG

Satya Sahoo: @Tim: thanks! The distinction between g-snap and g-box seems to be special importance to this WG

15:37:47 <satya> @tim: agree

Satya Sahoo: @tim: agree

15:37:50 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:37:54 <StephenCresswell> ... we need to interact more to make sure the clear distinction is established and maintained

... we need to interact more to make sure the clear distinction is established and maintained

15:38:29 <StephenCresswell> GK: Concerned that we become dependent on what SPARQL WG say

Graham Klyne: Concerned that we become dependent on what SPARQL WG say

15:39:19 <StephenCresswell> tlebo: Problem is that they have established RDF vocab to talk about endpoints, graphs etc., and they fail to make distinction

Timothy Lebo: Problem is that they have established RDF vocab to talk about endpoints, graphs etc., and they fail to make distinction

15:39:19 <Luc> there was a suggestion by Sandro to express the data journalism example, and trying to use some form of name graph, and learn from that

Luc Moreau: there was a suggestion by Sandro to express the data journalism example, and trying to use some form of name graph, and learn from that

15:39:37 <StephenCresswell> GK:  Their problem or ours?

Graham Klyne: Their problem or ours?

15:39:48 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:40:11 <StephenCresswell> tlebo: Ours.  They could continue to ignore it and they would meet their aims.

Timothy Lebo: Ours. They could continue to ignore it and they would meet their aims.

15:40:26 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:40:39 <pgroth> Topic: Update PROV-O

5. Update PROV-O

Summary: The status of the PROV-O document was discussed. The general consensus was that the document is ready for release if it contains all of the core concepts of the PROV-DM. It does not have to express all of the constraints at this stage. It should include some explanation of mapping of PROV-DM concepts, and some example of times associated with process executions.

<StephenCresswell> summary: The status of the PROV-O document was discussed. The general consensus was that the document is ready for release if it contains all of the core concepts of the PROV-DM.  It does not have to express all of the constraints at this stage.  It should include some explanation of mapping of PROV-DM concepts, and some example of times associated with process executions.
15:40:47 <StephenCresswell> tlebo:  Discussion on named graphs for accounts is stalled by these problems.

Timothy Lebo: Discussion on named graphs for accounts is stalled by these problems.

15:41:00 <dgarijo> hmm, if we cannot use named graphs as accounts then we will have to include "accounts" on the ontology.

Daniel Garijo: hmm, if we cannot use named graphs as accounts then we will have to include "accounts" on the ontology.

15:41:10 <dgarijo> once again.

Daniel Garijo: once again.

15:41:32 <StephenCresswell> satya:  Luc joined ontology call and had suggestions before release of documents.

Satya Sahoo: Luc joined ontology call and had suggestions before release of documents.

15:41:48 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.509.375.aacc

15:41:50 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:41:57 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:41:58 <GK> q+ top suggest an approach to simplifyingpresentation of the D<M might be via the ontology

Graham Klyne: q+ top suggest an approach to simplifyingpresentation of the D<M might be via the ontology

15:42:05 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:42:12 <StephenCresswell> ... on data model, it might make sense to withhold prov-o until readablity of dm doc is improved

... on data model, it might make sense to withhold prov-o until readablity of dm doc is improved

15:42:24 <stain> @Luc +1 - let's do an agile first version

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @Luc +1 - let's do an agile first version

15:42:33 <stain> with lots of bugs :)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: with lots of bugs :)

15:42:37 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:42:38 <GK> q+ to suggest an approach to simplifying presentation of the DM might be via the ontology

Graham Klyne: q+ to suggest an approach to simplifying presentation of the DM might be via the ontology

15:42:41 <StephenCresswell> Luc: Would be worried to delay prov-o document, we need serialisation, for primer etc.

Luc Moreau: Would be worried to delay prov-o document, we need serialisation, for primer etc.

15:42:52 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:43:12 <StephenCresswell> satya:  we can go ahead and release

Satya Sahoo: we can go ahead and release

15:43:18 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:43:30 <jcheney> +q

James Cheney: +q

15:43:31 <tlebo> PROV-O is not the RDF serialization?

Timothy Lebo: PROV-O is not the RDF serialization?

15:43:33 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:43:33 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to suggest an approach to simplifying presentation of the DM might be via the ontology

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to suggest an approach to simplifying presentation of the DM might be via the ontology

15:43:37 <StephenCresswell> ...to clarify,  prov-o is not the RDF serialisation

...to clarify, prov-o is not the RDF serialisation

15:44:24 <tlebo> so, PROV-O is RDF serialization + axioms?

Timothy Lebo: so, PROV-O is RDF serialization + axioms?

15:44:31 <StephenCresswell> GK:  Maybe leave data model as it is, but look at ways through ontology and RDF representation, to make the simple things easy to say.

Graham Klyne: Maybe leave data model as it is, but look at ways through ontology and RDF representation, to make the simple things easy to say.

15:44:58 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:45:08 <StephenCresswell> satya: Agree.  Think we have covered the mapping of all the terms in data model.

Satya Sahoo: Agree. Think we have covered the mapping of all the terms in data model.

15:45:29 <dgarijo> @GK: Paul already proposed some shortcut fucntions

Daniel Garijo: @GK: Paul already proposed some shortcut fucntions

15:45:46 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:46:10 <StephenCresswell> GK: Shortcuts  may provide a less scary way to present examples

Graham Klyne: Shortcuts may provide a less scary way to present examples

15:46:12 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#prov-dm-extensions

Stian Soiland-Reyes: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#prov-dm-extensions

15:46:20 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-prov-dm-20111018/#common-relations

Daniel Garijo: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-prov-dm-20111018/#common-relations

15:46:50 <StephenCresswell> satya:  Are we considering these things to be part of core data model or as extensions?

Satya Sahoo: Are we considering these things to be part of core data model or as extensions?

15:46:54 <GK> My point was that the ontology could contain things not in the data model, or easier structures to represent DM structures

Graham Klyne: My point was that the ontology could contain things not in the data model, or easier structures to represent DM structures

15:47:04 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:47:05 <stain> q+

Stian Soiland-Reyes: q+

15:47:07 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: I consider them part of the core

Paul Groth: I consider them part of the core

15:47:19 <GK> .. i.e. not necessarily 1:1 correspondence between DM and O

Graham Klyne: .. i.e. not necessarily 1:1 correspondence between DM and O

15:47:35 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:47:55 <StephenCresswell> jcheney: Data model uses abstract syntax, ontology uses RDF, but describes constraints and specialisations

James Cheney: Data model uses abstract syntax, ontology uses RDF, but describes constraints and specialisations

15:48:06 <GK> I think the ontology effectively *does* define RDGF serialization

Graham Klyne: I think the ontology effectively *does* define RDGF serialization

15:48:13 <pgroth> the RDF falls out of the Ontology

Paul Groth: the RDF falls out of the Ontology

15:48:27 <stain> but not with any constraints of formats or implicit/explicit etc.

Stian Soiland-Reyes: but not with any constraints of formats or implicit/explicit etc.

15:48:28 <StephenCresswell> ... but doesn't describe mapping to ontology

... but doesn't describe mapping to ontology

15:48:38 <stain> I assume PAQ should come with some minimum serialisation expectations

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I assume PAQ should come with some minimum serialisation expectations

15:48:48 <GK> @pgroth yes that's what I meant to say :)

Graham Klyne: @pgroth yes that's what I meant to say :)

15:49:00 <stain> so you could use PROV-O in Manchester Syntax if you like, but don't expect too many applications to understand it

Stian Soiland-Reyes: so you could use PROV-O in Manchester Syntax if you like, but don't expect too many applications to understand it

15:49:01 <MacTed> I don't understand "RDF serialization" nor "XML serialization" in this context. "RDF/XML serialization", yes.  or Turtle, N-Triples, etc.

Ted Thibodeau: I don't understand "RDF serialization" nor "XML serialization" in this context. "RDF/XML serialization", yes. or Turtle, N-Triples, etc.

15:49:09 <StephenCresswell> satya:  We tried to model DM classes and provide definitions.  What is mssing?

Satya Sahoo: We tried to model DM classes and provide definitions. What is mssing?

15:49:26 <pgroth> zakim, who is noisy?

Paul Groth: zakim, who is noisy?

15:49:33 <stain> XML serialisation CAN be a (restricted) RDF/XML serialisation

Stian Soiland-Reyes: XML serialisation CAN be a (restricted) RDF/XML serialisation

15:49:37 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (28%), ne (23%), Satya_Sahoo (4%)

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (28%), ne (23%), Satya_Sahoo (4%)

15:49:39 <GK> ACtually it's 2-stage:  model -> abstract RDDF (ontology does that), then given that RDF-syntax gives RDF/XML.

Graham Klyne: ACtually it's 2-stage: model -> abstract RDDF (ontology does that), then given that RDF-syntax gives RDF/XML.

15:50:26 <StephenCresswell> jcheney:  There's a deliverable about serialisation, is that intended to be serialisation of the of the ontology, or the mapping from the DM to the ontology?

James Cheney: There's a deliverable about serialisation, is that intended to be serialisation of the of the ontology, or the mapping from the DM to the ontology?

15:50:41 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:50:44 <pgroth> ack jcheney

Paul Groth: ack jcheney

15:50:46 <StephenCresswell> satya:  We will add some text on that.

Satya Sahoo: We will add some text on that.

15:51:05 <StephenCresswell> Luc:  On issue of time, there don't seem to be any time examples

Luc Moreau: On issue of time, there don't seem to be any time examples

15:51:16 <dgarijo> we talked about reusing some time ontologies.

Daniel Garijo: we talked about reusing some time ontologies.

15:51:28 <StephenCresswell> ... e.g. workflow example, can we have time in there?

... e.g. workflow example, can we have time in there?

15:51:33 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:51:41 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:51:42 <StephenCresswell> satya: We will add e.g. start and stop time of processes.

Satya Sahoo: We will add e.g. start and stop time of processes.

15:51:46 <dgarijo> like : http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/

Daniel Garijo: like : http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/

15:52:18 <tlebo> illustration of owl time: https://github.com/timrdf/csv2rdf4lod-automation/raw/master/doc/ontology-diagrams/owl-time.pdf

Timothy Lebo: illustration of owl time: https://github.com/timrdf/csv2rdf4lod-automation/raw/master/doc/ontology-diagrams/owl-time.pdf

15:52:39 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#prov-dm-extensions I mean

Stian Soiland-Reyes: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#prov-dm-extensions I mean

15:52:53 <stain> if you are required to understand the extensions if you are "PROV-DM compliant"

Stian Soiland-Reyes: if you are required to understand the extensions if you are "PROV-DM compliant"

15:53:11 <StephenCresswell> stain: Prov-DM extensions, are those something that we are required to understand?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Prov-DM extensions, are those something that we are required to understand?

15:53:16 <stain> or if it is optional, so that although PROV-O should have these terms, you don't need to understand it to be PROV-O compliant

Stian Soiland-Reyes: or if it is optional, so that although PROV-O should have these terms, you don't need to understand it to be PROV-O compliant

15:53:29 <StephenCresswell> Luc: they are part of the data model

Luc Moreau: they are part of the data model

15:53:49 <dgarijo> @Satya: entities?

Daniel Garijo: @Satya: entities?

15:53:59 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:54:00 <StephenCresswell> satya:  What are the domain and range of the relations?

Satya Sahoo: What are the domain and range of the relations?

15:54:13 <pgroth> ack stain

Paul Groth: ack stain

15:54:13 <GK> ?

Graham Klyne: ?

15:54:21 <StephenCresswell> Luc: entities

Luc Moreau: entities

15:54:22 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

15:54:23 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:55:08 <StephenCresswell> pgroth: It would be good to reflect everything in the DM into the ontology

Paul Groth: It would be good to reflect everything in the DM into the ontology

15:55:22 <StephenCresswell> ... not necessarily all the contraints

... not necessarily all the contraints

15:55:26 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:55:28 <tlebo> RDF examples for each construct are in the repository: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/ontology/components

Timothy Lebo: RDF examples for each construct are in the repository: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/ontology/components

15:55:41 <tlebo> not complete, not correct, but there :-)

Timothy Lebo: not complete, not correct, but there :-)

15:55:42 <GK> +1 need the vocabulary soonest, not nessecarily constraints

Graham Klyne: +1 need the vocabulary soonest, not nessecarily constraints

15:55:51 <StephenCresswell> satya: Primary aim should be to get all the terms modelled,

Satya Sahoo: Primary aim should be to get all the terms modelled,

15:56:13 <StephenCresswell> ... but if you don't define all the domain, range etc.

... but if you don't define all the domain, range etc.

15:56:28 <StephenCresswell> ... people have problems creating the RDF

... people have problems creating the RDF

15:56:43 <GK> +1 domain and range are helpful for generating RDF

Graham Klyne: +1 domain and range are helpful for generating RDF

15:57:14 <StephenCresswell> pgroth:  Domain and range are mostly there anyway, the hierachies are not so important at this stage.

Paul Groth: Domain and range are mostly there anyway, the hierachies are not so important at this stage.

15:58:01 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:58:02 <StephenCresswell> satya:  Agree, but OWL community won't like it.

Satya Sahoo: Agree, but OWL community won't like it.

15:58:18 <stain> example of XSD which happen to produce RDF/XML: https://github.com/myGrid/scufl2/blob/master/scufl2-rdfxml/src/main/resources/uk/org/taverna/scufl2/rdfxml/xsd/scufl2.xsd produces https://github.com/myGrid/scufl2/blob/master/scufl2-rdfxml/src/test/resources/uk/org/taverna/scufl2/rdfxml/example/workflowBundle.rdf

Stian Soiland-Reyes: example of XSD which happen to produce RDF/XML: https://github.com/myGrid/scufl2/blob/master/scufl2-rdfxml/src/main/resources/uk/org/taverna/scufl2/rdfxml/xsd/scufl2.xsd produces https://github.com/myGrid/scufl2/blob/master/scufl2-rdfxml/src/test/resources/uk/org/taverna/scufl2/rdfxml/example/workflowBundle.rdf

15:58:23 <pgroth> Topic: Discussion on Entity Attributes

6. Discussion on Entity Attributes

Summary: Graham reported that he and Jim Myers have reached consensus that having attributes as part of characterisation is worthwhile because it aids interoperability, and that it is not necessary to distinguish characterising and non-characterising attributes. It will be necessary to update document with this.

<StephenCresswell> summary: Graham reported that he and Jim Myers have reached consensus that having attributes as part of characterisation is worthwhile because it aids interoperability, and that it is not necessary to distinguish characterising and non-characterising attributes.  It will be necessary to update document with this.
15:58:33 <stain> .. but you get strange double-nesting due to the property-class nature of RDF/XML

Stian Soiland-Reyes: .. but you get strange double-nesting due to the property-class nature of RDF/XML

15:58:35 <GK> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Oct/0142.html

Graham Klyne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Oct/0142.html

15:58:54 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

15:58:57 <StephenCresswell> GK: Link is to one of most recent messages,

Graham Klyne: Link is to one of most recent messages,

15:59:11 <StephenCresswell> ... discussion between GK and Jim has converged

... discussion between GK and Jim has converged

15:59:15 <Zakim> +tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo

15:59:24 <StephenCresswell> ... to having attributes as part of characterisation

... to having attributes as part of characterisation

15:59:46 <StephenCresswell> ... to aid interoperability

... to aid interoperability

16:00:16 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:00:25 <StephenCresswell> ... Also agreed we don't have to distinguish between characterising and non-characterising attributes

... Also agreed we don't have to distinguish between characterising and non-characterising attributes

16:00:33 <tlebo> I haven't read the most recent emails on this, but the last time we talked about this, "characterizing attributes" were trying to reinvent owl.

Timothy Lebo: I haven't read the most recent emails on this, but the last time we talked about this, "characterizing attributes" were trying to reinvent owl.

16:00:33 <Zakim> -Yogesh_Simmhan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh_Simmhan

16:00:54 <Luc> q+ to ask if you still consider that attributes still have a given value for some interval

Luc Moreau: q+ to ask if you still consider that attributes still have a given value for some interval

16:00:58 <satya> @tim: +1

Satya Sahoo: @tim: +1

16:00:58 <tlebo> (sorry, call also dropped)

Timothy Lebo: (sorry, call also dropped)

16:01:13 <stain> should we do a proposal and vote?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: should we do a proposal and vote?

16:01:39 <StephenCresswell> Luc: Didn't mention whether a given attr has fixed value for some interval

Luc Moreau: Didn't mention whether a given attr has fixed value for some interval

16:01:43 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:01:53 <tlebo> all attributes are fixed in an entity, no?

Timothy Lebo: all attributes are fixed in an entity, no?

16:02:10 <StephenCresswell> GK: Any attr for entity is fixed for entity in what interval that entity exists.

Graham Klyne: Any attr for entity is fixed for entity in what interval that entity exists.

16:02:26 <Zakim> -[ISI]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[ISI]

16:02:31 <StephenCresswell> GK: Argument for interop came from jim.

Graham Klyne: Argument for interop came from jim.

16:02:32 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:02:32 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to ask if you still consider that attributes still have a given value for some interval

Zakim IRC Bot: Luc, you wanted to ask if you still consider that attributes still have a given value for some interval

16:02:33 <dgarijo> gotta go, sry.

Daniel Garijo: gotta go, sry.

16:02:43 <Zakim> -??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P35

16:03:03 <StephenCresswell> ... looking at provenance challenge, the attrs were introduced to enable conversion of information between different formats

... looking at provenance challenge, the attrs were introduced to enable conversion of information between different formats

16:03:08 <Zakim> -kai

Zakim IRC Bot: -kai

16:03:10 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:03:19 <kai> sorry, have to leave timely

Kai Eckert: sorry, have to leave timely

16:03:37 <tlebo> what is the brewing proposal we may vote on?

Timothy Lebo: what is the brewing proposal we may vote on?

16:03:40 <StephenCresswell> ... the approach I was suggested could be seen as a dual to that

... the approach I was suggested could be seen as a dual to that

16:04:06 <StephenCresswell> Luc:  We will try to get that articulated so we can make the case in the doc.

Luc Moreau: We will try to get that articulated so we can make the case in the doc.

16:04:28 <StephenCresswell> ... are there aspects of the document which conflict with what you agreed with Jim?

... are there aspects of the document which conflict with what you agreed with Jim?

16:04:49 <StephenCresswell> GK:  Will clarify this.

Graham Klyne: Will clarify this.

16:04:53 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:05:09 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

16:05:39 <StephenCresswell> satya: What GK said is exactly what frames and slots do, and that carries over to OWL.

Satya Sahoo: What GK said is exactly what frames and slots do, and that carries over to OWL.

16:05:49 <tlebo> just as PROV is avoiding the Time and Location discussions, it should also avoid being a schema language.

Timothy Lebo: just as PROV is avoiding the Time and Location discussions, it should also avoid being a schema language.

16:06:18 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:06:42 <StephenCresswell> satya:  To make it clear, it would help you don't explicitly carry around attributes of entity to be able to define it properly, that is done by typing information

Satya Sahoo: To make it clear, it would help you don't explicitly carry around attributes of entity to be able to define it properly, that is done by typing information

16:06:48 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

16:06:49 <Zakim> -stain

Zakim IRC Bot: -stain

16:06:52 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:06:53 <Zakim> -??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P37

16:06:56 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:06:57 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

16:06:57 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:07:03 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

16:07:05 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:07:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:07:11 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon

16:07:11 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:07:11 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Luc, Yogesh_Simmhan, GK, Curt_Tilmes, +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, stain, [ISI], kai?, ne, dgarijo, +1.518.633.aabb, MacTed,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, Luc, Yogesh_Simmhan, GK, Curt_Tilmes, +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, stain, [ISI], kai?, ne, dgarijo, +1.518.633.aabb, MacTed,

16:07:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:07:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:07:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:07:13 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items

16:07:15 <Zakim> ... Satya_Sahoo, paolo, +1.509.375.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Satya_Sahoo, paolo, +1.509.375.aacc



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