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Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 29 September 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.29
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Eric Stephan, Graham Klyne, James Cheney, Jörn Hees, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Simon Dobson, Stephen Cresswell, Timothy Lebo, Vinh Nguyen, Yogesh Simmhan, Yolanda Gil
Chair
Luc Moreau
Scribe
Yogesh Simmhan
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. minutes of Sep 22 telecon link
  2. release the data model document as a FPWD link
Topics
  1. Admin

    Last week's teleconference minutes were approved.

  2. First Public Working Drafts

    The PROV-WG formally approved the release of the data model document as a first public working draft. It is expected that the formal model document will be made available for internal review on Monday. Timetable for the PAQ document to be check with Paul; Graham's absence was noted.

  3. Connection Task Force

    Eric presented the Connection Task Force informal report. The group is invited to read the document and feedback comments.

  4. Primer

    Yolanda has joined Simon as editor of the primer. They will prepare a plan of actions, which they will present next week.

  5. Formal model document

    Satya updated us on the progress of the formal model document. A number of topics were discussed: subclassing, role, account, and named graph. Tim will explain how the concept of account can be captured in the ontology; this should help formulate requirements for named graphs. The importance of test/use cases was noted, and the team is encouraged to keep on building a catalogue of such cases.

14:39:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/29-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/29-prov-irc

14:39:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:39:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:39:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:39:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:39:21 <trackbot> Date: 29 September 2011
14:39:26 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:39:26 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes

14:39:39 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.29
14:39:48 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:39:58 <Luc> Scribe: Yogesh Simmhan

(Scribe set to Yogesh Simmhan)

14:40:36 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

<luc>Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: Last week's teleconference minutes were approved.

<Luc>Summary: Last week's teleconference minutes were approved.
14:56:12 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 15 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:56:17 <Zakim> +Vinh

Zakim IRC Bot: +Vinh

14:56:26 <Zakim> +Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh

14:57:19 <Luc> Hi Yogesh, everything setup for you

Luc Moreau: Hi Yogesh, everything setup for you

14:57:27 <Yogesh> Thanks Luc

Thanks Luc

14:57:42 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

14:57:55 <Zakim> +??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11

14:58:16 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.238.059.aaaa

14:58:28 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P11 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P11 is me

14:58:28 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

14:58:30 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me

14:58:30 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

14:58:39 <dgarijo> Hi everyone

Daniel Garijo: Hi everyone

14:58:58 <Zakim> + +1.509.967.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.509.967.aabb

15:00:19 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

15:01:09 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4

15:02:07 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aacc

15:02:35 <Yogesh> Luc: admin issues, release of 1st public working draft, hearing from eric about connection task force report, Simon give primer, and satya formal doc

Luc Moreau: admin issues, release of 1st public working draft, hearing from eric about connection task force report, Simon give primer, and satya formal doc

15:02:47 <Yogesh> Luc: any other issues? No.

Luc Moreau: any other issues? No.

15:02:49 <Luc> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of Sep 22 telecon

Luc Moreau: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of Sep 22 telecon

15:02:58 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

15:02:59 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-09-22

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-09-22

15:03:04 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:03:09 <Yogesh> +1

+1

15:03:10 <ericstephan> +1

Eric Stephan: +1

15:03:11 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:03:12 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:03:14 <dgarijo> -q

Daniel Garijo: -q

15:03:15 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:03:16 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:03:23 <StephenCresswell> +1

Stephen Cresswell: +1

15:03:44 <Luc> ACCEPTED: minutes of Sep 22 telecon

RESOLVED: minutes of Sep 22 telecon

15:03:53 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

15:04:16 <Zakim> +??P46

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P46

15:04:16 <Yogesh> Luc: action assigned to satya on doing named graph e.g.

Luc Moreau: action assigned to satya on doing named graph e.g.

15:04:28 <GK> zakin, ??P46 is me

Graham Klyne: zakin, ??P46 is me

15:04:35 <Yogesh> satya: paolo closed it last week.

Satya Sahoo: paolo closed it last week.

15:04:49 <pgroth> i think that action was closed

Paul Groth: i think that action was closed

15:04:53 <Luc> TOPIC: First Public Working Drafts

2. First Public Working Drafts

Summary: The PROV-WG formally approved the release of the data model document as a first public working draft. It is expected that the formal model document will be made available for internal review on Monday. Timetable for the PAQ document to be check with Paul; Graham's absence was noted.

<Luc>Summary: The PROV-WG formally approved the release of the data model document as a first public working draft.  It is expected that the formal model document will be made available for internal review on Monday. Timetable for the PAQ document to be check with Paul; Graham's absence was noted.
15:05:22 <Yogesh> luc: data model doc to be released this week as FPWD

Luc Moreau: data model doc to be released this week as FPWD

15:05:28 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:05:30 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:05:35 <Yogesh> luc: feedback from participants and is it ok to release?

Luc Moreau: feedback from participants and is it ok to release?

15:05:54 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

15:05:56 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:05:59 <Yogesh> satya: has been raising issues. Do we address issues and continue working on doc after its released?

Satya Sahoo: has been raising issues. Do we address issues and continue working on doc after its released?

15:06:08 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P10 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P10 is me

15:06:10 <GK> @Luc: I do *not* regard my comments today as blockers for release as FPWD

Graham Klyne: @Luc: I do *not* regard my comments today as blockers for release as FPWD

15:06:16 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:06:30 <Yogesh> luc: first draft that is publicly released. Keep working on doc.  To decide if there is anything blocking release.

Luc Moreau: first draft that is publicly released. Keep working on doc. To decide if there is anything blocking release.

15:06:57 <Yogesh> satya: is ok with releasing it.

Satya Sahoo: is ok with releasing it.

15:07:21 <Yogesh> luc: keep adding comments so readers know it is a work in progress.

Luc Moreau: keep adding comments so readers know it is a work in progress.

15:07:23 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:07:29 <Luc> ack satya

Luc Moreau: ack satya

15:07:29 <Zakim> +??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15

15:07:36 <jcheney> zakim, ??P15 is me

James Cheney: zakim, ??P15 is me

15:07:36 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:07:39 <smiles> I take a similar position to Graham - none of my comments blockers

Simon Miles: I take a similar position to Graham - none of my comments blockers

15:07:46 <Zakim> +Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda

15:08:17 <Yogesh> luc: need to vote formally on release. this is the first docs being released by group. Need to contact W3C director and point to the resolution.

Luc Moreau: need to vote formally on release. this is the first docs being released by group. Need to contact W3C director and point to the resolution.

15:08:25 <Luc> proposed: release the data model document as a FPWD

PROPOSED: release the data model document as a FPWD

15:08:40 <sandro> +1 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C)

15:08:58 <ericstephan> +1 (PNNL)

Eric Stephan: +1 (PNNL)

15:08:58 <satya> +1 (IE)

Satya Sahoo: +1 (IE)

15:08:59 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 (University of Manchester)

Khalid Belhajjame: +1 (University of Manchester)

15:08:59 <smiles> +1 (IE)

Simon Miles: +1 (IE)

15:09:00 <Yogesh> +1 (IE)

+1 (IE)

15:09:02 <pgroth> +1 (VUA)

Paul Groth: +1 (VUA)

15:09:02 <GK> +1 (Oxford U)

Graham Klyne: +1 (Oxford U)

15:09:03 <Curt> +1 (NASA)

Curt Tilmes: +1 (NASA)

15:09:09 <jcheney> +1 (U Edinburgh)

James Cheney: +1 (U Edinburgh)

15:09:16 <Paolo> Hi everybody I'm on IRC but not phone - call overlap

Paolo Missier: Hi everybody I'm on IRC but not phone - call overlap

15:09:26 <Yogesh> sandro: please add affiliation in parantheses after +1. Invited experts to say IE

Sandro Hawke: please add affiliation in parantheses after +1. Invited experts to say IE

15:09:28 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:09:38 <sandro> Yolanda: +1 (IE)

Yolanda Gil: +1 (IE) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:09:42 <dgarijo> (UPM)

Daniel Garijo: (UPM)

15:10:11 <dgarijo> yea, sorry about that :(

Daniel Garijo: yea, sorry about that :(

15:10:23 <Luc> ACCEPTED: release the data model document as a FPWD

RESOLVED: release the data model document as a FPWD

15:10:41 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

15:10:49 <pgroth> cool

Paul Groth: cool

15:10:56 <Yogesh> sandro: need to send email to a list of people about this. will send link.

Sandro Hawke: need to send email to a list of people about this. will send link.

15:11:15 <GK> q+, to say: need to use ReSpect features to generate the HTML

Graham Klyne: q+, to say: need to use ReSpect features to generate the HTML

15:11:16 <Yogesh> sandro: editors need to check all links are good, valid CSS/html, etc.

Sandro Hawke: editors need to check all links are good, valid CSS/html, etc.

15:11:20 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:11:53 <Yogesh> GK: need to use ReSpect features to generate the HTML. If so, output should be compliant (but not broken links)

Graham Klyne: need to use ReSpec features to generate the HTML. If so, output should be compliant (but not broken links)

15:12:00 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:12:27 <Yogesh> luc: editors of other two docs, whats the timetable?

Luc Moreau: editors of other two docs, whats the timetable?

15:12:51 <Yogesh> GK: Paul will make a call

Graham Klyne: Paul will make a call

15:12:56 <sandro> Here are the full publication rules for a First Public Working Draft: http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules?year=2011&uimode=filter&filter=Filter+pubrules&filterValues=form&docstatus=fpwd-wd-tr&patpol=w3c&rectrack=yes&normative=yes&prevrec=none#docreqs

Sandro Hawke: Here are the full publication rules for a First Public Working Draft: http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules?year=2011&uimode=filter&filter=Filter+pubrules&filterValues=form&docstatus=fpwd-wd-tr&patpol=w3c&rectrack=yes&normative=yes&prevrec=none#docreqs

15:13:02 <GK> s/ReSpect/ReSpec/
15:13:11 <pgroth> i think we need some more time before the paq is ready

Paul Groth: i think we need some more time before the paq is ready

15:13:20 <pgroth> maybe 1 week or so

Paul Groth: maybe 1 week or so

15:13:28 <Yogesh> Luc: issue with entities that was postponed. has dust settled?

Luc Moreau: issue with entities that was postponed. has dust settled?

15:13:56 <sandro> Luc, the steps for publication approval are: http://services.w3.org/xslt?xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl&docstatus=fpwd-wd-tr

Sandro Hawke: Luc, the steps for publication approval are: http://services.w3.org/xslt?xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl&docstatus=fpwd-wd-tr

15:14:10 <Luc> Thanks Sandro

Luc Moreau: Thanks Sandro

15:14:11 <Yogesh> GK: has enough info to draft the changes to entities. Will be away for 2 weeks after this week. Did not expect to do substantial work on it after this point.

Graham Klyne: has enough info to draft the changes to entities. Will be away for 2 weeks after this week. Did not expect to do substantial work on it after this point.

15:14:34 <Yogesh> GK: the doc can go out without the extra drafting, but will defer to Paul's call

Graham Klyne: the doc can go out without the extra drafting, but will defer to Paul's call

15:14:46 <Yogesh> luc: will talk 1:1 with Paul to understand issue.

Luc Moreau: will talk 1:1 with Paul to understand issue.

15:15:06 <pgroth> thanks

Paul Groth: thanks

15:15:37 <Yogesh> satya: formal model substantial work done , thanks to stian, khalid, daniel.

Satya Sahoo: formal model substantial work done , thanks to stian, khalid, daniel.

15:15:51 <Yogesh> satya: will have a call nect Monday, but will be able to release before that

Satya Sahoo: will have a call nect Monday, but will be able to release before that

15:16:10 <Yogesh> satya: will send mail to luc, paul and sandro to see if its ready to release

Satya Sahoo: will send mail to luc, paul and sandro to see if its ready to release

15:16:16 <Yogesh> luc: decision has to be made by group

Luc Moreau: decision has to be made by group

15:16:34 <Yogesh> luc: WG should have time to go through it before decision is made

Luc Moreau: WG should have time to go through it before decision is made

15:16:45 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:16:47 <Yogesh> satya: wull send link to WG and we can vote on next week's call

Satya Sahoo: wull send link to WG and we can vote on next week's call

15:16:48 <pgroth> q+ to ask whether we should go for

Paul Groth: q+ to ask whether we should go for

15:17:00 <GK> @pgroth - I wanted to draft a section discussing contexts and Entities, and the that provenance assertions *could* be applicable to multiple Entities.  Setting this out would make it easier to address some of the issues about contexts and anchors.

Graham Klyne: @pgroth - I wanted to draft a section discussing contexts and Entities, and the that provenance assertions *could* be applicable to multiple Entities. Setting this out would make it easier to address some of the issues about contexts and anchors.

15:17:12 <Luc> ack pgroth

Luc Moreau: ack pgroth

15:17:12 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask whether we should go for

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, you wanted to ask whether we should go for

15:17:21 <Luc> paul, what did you want say?

Luc Moreau: paul, what did you want say?

15:17:28 <pgroth> I'm not on the phone, but just wanted to ask whether we should wait for the ontology before releasing the conceptual model

Paul Groth: I'm not on the phone, but just wanted to ask whether we should wait for the ontology before releasing the conceptual model

15:17:32 <Zakim> + +1.512.524.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.512.524.aadd

15:17:53 <khalidbelhajjame> I don't think we should wait

Khalid Belhajjame: I don't think we should wait

15:17:57 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:18:03 <smiles> depends how long it takes to agree the formal model...

Simon Miles: depends how long it takes to agree the formal model...

15:18:04 <dgarijo> me neither. The ontology has to be still tested

Daniel Garijo: me neither. The ontology has to be still tested

15:18:18 <GK> That's a good question:  AFAICT, developers (@stain?) are working from the ontology doc.

Graham Klyne: That's a good question: AFAICT, developers (@stain?) are working from the ontology doc.

15:18:26 <ericstephan> don't wait

Eric Stephan: don't wait

15:18:32 <Yogesh> luc: doesnt see a sense that we should wait

Luc Moreau: doesnt see a sense that we should wait

15:18:44 <pgroth> ok

Paul Groth: ok

15:18:50 <tlebo> comments on the conceptual model from the public will facilitate the OWL development.

Timothy Lebo: comments on the conceptual model from the public will facilitate the OWL development.

15:19:09 <pgroth> seems like there is consensus to release on the irc

Paul Groth: seems like there is consensus to release on the irc

15:19:13 <Yogesh> GK: unclear about this. Stian has been doing prototyping based on ontology, not conceptual. There may be complementary info. But should not unecessarily hold things up.

Graham Klyne: unclear about this. Stian has been doing prototyping based on ontology, not conceptual. There may be complementary info. But should not unecessarily hold things up.

15:19:30 <Yogesh> luc: stian was implementing in OWL to inform the OWL design

Luc Moreau: stian was implementing in OWL to inform the OWL design

15:19:38 <Yogesh> luc: stian, do you have comments?

Luc Moreau: stian, do you have comments?

15:19:56 <Yogesh> who is here?

who is here?

15:19:59 <Yogesh> zakim, who is here?

zakim, who is here?

15:19:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Vinh, Yogesh, Curt_Tilmes, dgarijo, Luc, +1.509.967.aabb, ??P8, ??P4, +1.315.330.aacc, Satya_Sahoo, ??P46, khalidbelhajjame, Sandro, jcheney, Yolanda, ??P25,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Vinh, Yogesh, Curt_Tilmes, dgarijo, Luc, +1.509.967.aabb, ??P8, ??P4, +1.315.330.aacc, Satya_Sahoo, ??P46, khalidbelhajjame, Sandro, jcheney, Yolanda, ??P25,

15:20:03 <Zakim> ... +1.512.524.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.512.524.aadd

15:20:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see jorn, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, GK, tlebo, Paolo, StephenCresswell, satya, smiles, dgarijo, Curt, ericstephan, Yogesh, pgroth, Vinh, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see jorn, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, GK, tlebo, Paolo, StephenCresswell, satya, smiles, dgarijo, Curt, ericstephan, Yogesh, pgroth, Vinh, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot,

15:20:06 <Zakim> ... stain, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: ... stain, sandro

15:20:36 <Yogesh> luc: will take a few days before it is released. there will be an announcement that other docs will follow. we can proceed wth conceptual model and OWL spec will be ready soon

Luc Moreau: will take a few days before it is released. there will be an announcement that other docs will follow. we can proceed wth conceptual model and OWL spec will be ready soon

15:20:42 <dgarijo> @GK: @stain used the ontology to test it, yes. But he made also based on the definitions of the conceptual model, to help us improve it :)

Daniel Garijo: @GK: @stain used the ontology to test it, yes. But he made also based on the definitions of the conceptual model, to help us improve it :)

15:20:44 <Luc> Topic: Connection Task Force

3. Connection Task Force

Summary: Eric presented the Connection Task Force informal report. The group is invited to read the document and feedback comments.

<luc>Summary: Eric presented the Connection Task Force informal report. The group is invited to read the document and feedback comments.
15:21:04 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report

15:21:21 <Yogesh> ericstephan: 1st F2F meeting had preliminary thoughts.

Eric Stephan: 1st F2F meeting had preliminary thoughts.

15:21:52 <Yogesh> ericstephan: several suggestions on other communities, standards bodies inside W3C and other special interest areas

Eric Stephan: several suggestions on other communities, standards bodies inside W3C and other special interest areas

15:22:31 <Yogesh> ...Agreed that will develop a report and provide connections.

...Agreed that will develop a report and provide connections.

15:22:32 <Yogesh> ...Link is available online that shows the degrees of connections.

...Link is available online that shows the degrees of connections.

15:22:38 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:22:40 <Yogesh> ...Please thae a look and give feedback.

...Please take a look and give feedback.

15:22:54 <Yogesh> s/thae/take/
15:23:21 <Yogesh> luc: Nice to see potential impact on other commnities. What was rationale?

Luc Moreau: Nice to see potential impact on other commnities. What was rationale?

15:23:56 <Yogesh> ericstephan: "Connectivity Approaches to Community " summarizes ratonale. 1 star means we know them, but they dont know us.

Eric Stephan: "Connectivity Approaches to Community " summarizes ratonale. 1 star means we know them, but they dont know us.

15:24:20 <Yogesh> ...4 stars means we know a name/person who writes a section for us.

...4 stars means we know a name/person who writes a section for us.

15:24:23 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:24:23 <GK> q+ to ask if you are looking for additional help to build more definite links with lower star ratings; more generally, what are the specific actions you asosciate with different ratings?

Graham Klyne: q+ to ask if you are looking for additional help to build more definite links with lower star ratings; more generally, what are the specific actions you asosciate with different ratings?

15:24:28 <Luc> ack gk

Luc Moreau: ack gk

15:24:28 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if you are looking for additional help to build more definite links with lower star ratings; more generally, what are the specific actions you asosciate with

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to ask if you are looking for additional help to build more definite links with lower star ratings; more generally, what are the specific actions you asosciate with

15:24:31 <Zakim> ... different ratings?

Zakim IRC Bot: ... different ratings?

15:25:05 <Yogesh> GK: are you looking to strengthen the connections for low stars?

Graham Klyne: are you looking to strengthen the connections for low stars?

15:25:21 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:25:57 <Zakim> -??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P25

15:26:11 <Yogesh> ericstephan: stars are access to community. Completed the report after F2F but this is living doc that will add connections and increase stars.

Eric Stephan: stars are access to community. Completed the report after F2F but this is living doc that will add connections and increase stars.

15:26:28 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

15:26:32 <jorn> zakim, ??p25 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p25 is me

15:26:32 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:26:51 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:26:55 <Yogesh> Kai has been collaborating to get info

Kai has been collaborating to get info

15:28:12 <Yogesh> eGovenment group has an interest in provenance.

eGovenment group has an interest in provenance.

15:28:55 <Yogesh> stephen: have been on their conference call. They are interested in recommending an approach.

Stephen Cresswell: have been on their conference call. They are interested in recommending an approach.

15:29:56 <Luc> ack smiles

Luc Moreau: ack smiles

15:30:05 <Zakim> -Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh

15:30:14 <Zakim> +Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh

15:31:50 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:32:13 <Zakim> +??P40

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P40

15:32:31 <Paolo> zakim, ??P40 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P40 is me

15:32:31 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

15:32:58 <Zakim> - +1.512.524.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.512.524.aadd

15:33:23 <Yogesh> sorry, my IRC has been giving problems

sorry, my IRC has been giving problems

15:33:54 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:34:12 <Luc> Topic: Primer

4. Primer

Summary: Yolanda has joined Simon as editor of the primer. They will prepare a plan of actions, which they will present next week.

<Luc>Summary: Yolanda has joined Simon as editor of the primer. They will prepare a plan of actions, which they will present next week.
15:34:32 <Yogesh>smiles: put the skeleton together

Simon Miles: put the skeleton together

15:34:37 <smiles> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html

Simon Miles: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html

15:34:53 <Yogesh> looking for comments. Yolanda will coedit the primer. Will be talking tomorrow.

looking for comments. Yolanda will coedit the primer. Will be talking tomorrow.

15:35:11 <Yogesh> ...Yolanda suggested starting points for people from different perspectives.

...Yolanda suggested starting points for people from different perspectives.

15:35:36 <Yogesh> ...Others can volunteer next week to contribute to primer.

...Others can volunteer next week to contribute to primer.

15:35:47 <Yogesh> ...Will set out well defined actvities for them.

...Will set out well defined actvities for them.

15:36:05 <GK> @smiles: might want to copy overview diagram from the model doc?  I think it bears repeating :)

Graham Klyne: @smiles: might want to copy overview diagram from the model doc? I think it bears repeating :)

15:36:06 <Yogesh> ..Expect a primer by end of Oct as a draft for WG to consider.

..Expect a primer by end of Oct as a draft for WG to consider.

15:36:12 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:36:16 <Yogesh> Luc: Will have primer agenda for next week.

Luc Moreau: Will have primer agenda for next week.

15:36:39 <Yogesh> smiles: May not be able to make it next week. Will check if Yolanda can make it. Will send email.

Simon Miles: May not be able to make it next week. Will check if Yolanda can make it. Will send email.

15:36:39 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:36:50 <Yogesh> Yolanda: will be able to join next week.

Yolanda Gil: will be able to join next week.

15:36:56 <Luc> topic: Formal model document

5. Formal model document

Summary: Satya updated us on the progress of the formal model document. A number of topics were discussed: subclassing, role, account, and named graph. Tim will explain how the concept of account can be captured in the ontology; this should help formulate requirements for named graphs. The importance of test/use cases was noted, and the team is encouraged to keep on building a catalogue of such cases.

<Luc>Summary: Satya updated us on the progress of the formal model document. A number of topics were discussed: subclassing, role, account, and named graph. Tim will explain how the concept of account can be captured in the ontology; this should help formulate requirements for named graphs. The importance of test/use cases was noted, and the team is encouraged to keep on building a catalogue of such cases.
15:37:04 <satya> I guess the current structure of the Primer is initial version - so will comment later

Satya Sahoo: I guess the current structure of the Primer is initial version - so will comment later

15:37:59 <Yogesh> satya: had feedback. Luc raised an issue. satya has 2 sections to look into: extension section and formal semantics

Satya Sahoo: had feedback. Luc raised an issue. satya has 2 sections to look into: extension section and formal semantics

15:38:23 <Yogesh> ...will send email on Monday for WG to review

...will send email on Monday for WG to review

15:38:26 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:39:36 <Yogesh> satya: Will try to release a first version that may change based on feedback

Satya Sahoo: Will try to release a first version that may change based on feedback

15:40:13 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:40:30 <Yogesh> ...Discusssions on provenance container and entity and subclasses has led to changes. But cant provide a timeline for fixed ontology till a formal conceptual model is in place.

...Discusssions on provenance container and entity and subclasses has led to changes. But cant provide a timeline for fixed ontology till a formal conceptual model is in place.

15:40:33 <Luc> ack d

Luc Moreau: ack d

15:40:34 <GK> q+ to ask if there's a criterion for deciding what subclasses to define

Graham Klyne: q+ to ask if there's a criterion for deciding what subclasses to define

15:40:56 <Yogesh> dgarijo: Converging to stablility. Testing usecases.

Daniel Garijo: Converging to stablility. Testing usecases.

15:41:00 <Luc> ack gk

Luc Moreau: ack gk

15:41:00 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if there's a criterion for deciding what subclasses to define

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to ask if there's a criterion for deciding what subclasses to define

15:41:55 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:42:05 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

15:42:21 <Luc> yogesh, are you still here?

Luc Moreau: yogesh, are you still here?

15:42:32 <Yogesh> satya: agrees with GK. If we do not assert subclass of relationship, then we have limit entailments. Tradeoff.

Satya Sahoo: agrees with GK. If we do not assert subclass of relationship, then we have limit entailments. Tradeoff.

15:42:45 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:42:46 <Yogesh> ...We can keep all of them for now without asserting subclass of relationship.

...We can keep all of them for now without asserting subclass of relationship.

15:43:40 <Yogesh> satya: Have been discussing the use of roles. Associating qualifiers wth relationships, or with Process executions was discussed.

Satya Sahoo: Have been discussing the use of roles. Associating qualifiers wth relationships, or with Process executions was discussed.

15:44:32 <Yogesh> ...For now, agreed to use roles until there are clear cases highlighting its shortcomings.

...For now, agreed to use roles until there are clear cases highlighting its shortcomings.

15:44:54 <Yogesh> ...Similarly, time of process start and stop are assertions or qualifiers on the process entities, not relationships.

...Similarly, time of process start and stop are assertions or qualifiers on the process entities, not relationships.

15:45:29 <Yogesh> luc: Someone mentioned usecases being built. Is there a catalog? All cant go into fomal doc but may be useful to test interop.

Luc Moreau: Someone mentioned usecases being built. Is there a catalog? All cant go into fomal doc but may be useful to test interop.

15:45:47 <Yogesh> satya: Using crime scene scenario and the one stain has done.

Satya Sahoo: Using crime scene scenario and the one stain has done.

15:45:51 <tlebo> +q

Timothy Lebo: +q

15:46:18 <Yogesh> Luc: Is there something even smaller? Entity between two process executions with roles

Luc Moreau: Is there something even smaller? Entity between two process executions with roles

15:46:35 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:46:36 <tlebo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/ontology/components is collecting the individual OWL axioms and collects examples

Timothy Lebo: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/ontology/components is collecting the individual OWL axioms and collects examples

15:46:40 <Luc> ack tl

Luc Moreau: ack tl

15:46:43 <khalidbelhajjame> Stian has already encode the workflow provenance example.

Khalid Belhajjame: Stian has already encode the workflow provenance example.

15:46:43 <Yogesh> satya: Corolla car example would be useful

Satya Sahoo: Corolla car example would be useful

15:46:48 <khalidbelhajjame> It is in the mercurial

Khalid Belhajjame: It is in the mercurial

15:47:02 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:47:33 <Yogesh> Luc: can you put this link in the top level page?

Luc Moreau: can you put this link in the top level page?

15:47:37 <GK> I can see the readme

Graham Klyne: I can see the readme

15:47:40 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:48:12 <Yogesh> Luc: postponed discussions on accounts?

Luc Moreau: postponed discussions on accounts?

15:48:36 <Yogesh> satya: Still some discussion between account, provenance collections and containers.

Satya Sahoo: Still some discussion between account, provenance collections and containers.

15:48:50 <Yogesh> ...Can definitely model container right now. Are accounts distinct?

...Can definitely model container right now. Are accounts distinct?

15:48:56 <Yogesh> Luc: Yes, in the conceptual model.

Luc Moreau: Yes, in the conceptual model.

15:49:28 <Paolo> Accounts can be nested, for example

Paolo Missier: Accounts can be nested, for example

15:49:38 <dgarijo> I saw accounts as something more specific than a prov container.

Daniel Garijo: I saw accounts as something more specific than a prov container.

15:49:43 <Yogesh> satya: can we rename container as something else?

Satya Sahoo: can we rename container as something else?

15:50:03 <dgarijo> so a container could, for instance, contain several accounts

Daniel Garijo: so a container could, for instance, contain several accounts

15:50:21 <Yogesh> Luc: named graphs are scoping construct for triples with metadata associated. But construct is not there is OWL.

Luc Moreau: named graphs are scoping construct for triples with metadata associated. But construct is not there is OWL.

15:50:26 <tlebo> named graphs can be described in OWL using http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql-service-description#

Timothy Lebo: named graphs can be described in OWL using http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql-service-description#

15:50:35 <khalidbelhajjame> I would suggest to keep them separate, while ProvenanceContainer is a (Random) bundle of assertions, accounts should be used when there is scoping. So, although structurally they are similar, semantically they are not.

Khalid Belhajjame: I would suggest to keep them separate, while ProvenanceContainer is a (Random) bundle of assertions, accounts should be used when there is scoping. So, although structurally they are similar, semantically they are not.

15:50:43 <Yogesh> ...How can we express accounts without named graphs in OWL?

...How can we express accounts without named graphs in OWL?

15:50:52 <Yogesh> satya: we'll need a class for that in OWL.

Satya Sahoo: we'll need a class for that in OWL.

15:50:54 <dgarijo> @khalid: +1

Daniel Garijo: @khalid: +1

15:51:11 <Yogesh> ...Containers are similar to scoping in named graphs.

...Containers are similar to scoping in named graphs.

15:51:34 <dgarijo> @khalid: but they are not disjoint. A container can be an account.

Daniel Garijo: @khalid: but they are not disjoint. A container can be an account.

15:51:40 <GK> I think it will depend very much on how the RDF group introduce named graphs...

Graham Klyne: I think it will depend very much on how the RDF group introduce named graphs...

15:51:42 <Yogesh> ...Containers bundle assertions and we can associate metadata with the cotainers.

...Containers bundle assertions and we can associate metadata with the cotainers.

15:51:48 <khalidbelhajjame> @daniel, yes

Khalid Belhajjame: @daniel, yes

15:51:56 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

15:52:10 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:52:13 <Yogesh> Luc: How will container class be instantiated into named graphs in RDF?

Luc Moreau: How will container class be instantiated into named graphs in RDF?

15:52:15 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-service-description describes named graphs

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-service-description describes named graphs

15:52:18 <GK> ... is as literals, then they can appear ibn OWL datatype properties, but the embedded RDF semantics may be opaque

Graham Klyne: ... is as literals, then they can appear ibn OWL datatype properties, but the embedded RDF semantics may be opaque

15:52:38 <tlebo> naming named graphs within a SPARQL endpoint (an approach): https://github.com/timrdf/csv2rdf4lod-automation/wiki/Naming-sparql-service-description%27s-sd%3ANamedGraph

Timothy Lebo: naming named graphs within a SPARQL endpoint (an approach): https://github.com/timrdf/csv2rdf4lod-automation/wiki/Naming-sparql-service-description%27s-sd%3ANamedGraph

15:52:46 <dgarijo> we can allways avoid usinog named graphs in owl: create class account and a relationship of containment to each of the other concepts.

Daniel Garijo: we can allways avoid usinog named graphs in owl: create class account and a relationship of containment to each of the other concepts.

15:53:00 <GK> ... if datasets (ala SPARQL) then I'm not sure how that would carry over.

Graham Klyne: ... if datasets (ala SPARQL) then I'm not sure how that would carry over.

15:53:29 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:53:32 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:53:33 <Yogesh> satya: no construct for provenance assertion in model. Should we model it in ontology?

Satya Sahoo: no construct for provenance assertion in model. Should we model it in ontology?

15:53:40 <Luc> ack tl

Luc Moreau: ack tl

15:54:01 <khalidbelhajjame> Ok, I see your point Satya. In that case, we can just explain that in the HTML document without adding explicit classes in the OWL ontology

Khalid Belhajjame: Ok, I see your point Satya. In that case, we can just explain that in the HTML document without adding explicit classes in the OWL ontology

15:54:03 <GK> Yes, "Provenance assertion" is an ASN construct; representation in RDF is just an RDF assertion, I think.

Graham Klyne: Yes, "Provenance assertion" is an ASN construct; representation in RDF is just an RDF assertion, I think.

15:54:10 <Yogesh> tlebo: Variety of work is in draft, like sparql endpoint

Timothy Lebo: Variety of work is in draft, like sparql endpoint

15:54:21 <Yogesh> ...We can extend this vocabulary.

...We can extend this vocabulary.

15:54:46 <Yogesh> Luc: will you have a proposal on accounts and containers by the time the doc is released as FPWD?

Luc Moreau: will you have a proposal on accounts and containers by the time the doc is released as FPWD?

15:54:54 <satya> @Khalid, GK: +1

Satya Sahoo: @Khalid, GK: +1

15:54:55 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:55:01 <Yogesh> tleb: Will have a first draft on it.

Timothy Lebo: Will have a first draft on it.

15:55:02 <Luc> ack dg

Luc Moreau: ack dg

15:55:22 <tlebo> dgarijo: make prov:Account (don't use named graphs)

Daniel Garijo: make prov:Account (don't use named graphs) [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:55:46 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:55:57 <Yogesh> dgarijo: Named graphs are not yet standarized. Not helpful to reply on it.

Daniel Garijo: Named graphs are not yet standarized. Not helpful to reply on it.

15:56:06 <tlebo> sd:NamedGraph will need to be a subclass prov:Account - since accounts can be sitting elsewhere.

Simon Dobson: NamedGraph will need to be a subclass prov:Account - since accounts can be sitting elsewhere. [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:56:10 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

15:56:52 <GK>  Ah... with named graphs, can use owl:import?

Graham Klyne: Ah... with named graphs, can use owl:import?

15:56:55 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:57:00 <tlebo> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

15:57:01 <Luc> ack tl

Luc Moreau: ack tl

15:57:21 <Yogesh> satya: defers to ntology telecon, but what does sitting "elsewhere" mean?

Satya Sahoo: defers to ntology telecon, but what does sitting "elsewhere" mean?

15:57:33 <Zakim> -??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P25

15:57:50 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:57:55 <Luc> ack saty

Luc Moreau: ack saty

15:57:58 <tlebo> satya: can you capture your question?

Satya Sahoo: can you capture your question? [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:58:57 <Yogesh> Luc: Will be good to see a proposal for named graphs and go to RDF group and ask if they can support this

Luc Moreau: Will be good to see a proposal for named graphs and go to RDF group and ask if they can support this

15:59:08 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:59:28 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

15:59:28 <Yogesh> list attendees

list attendees

15:59:29 <Zakim> - +1.315.330.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.315.330.aacc

15:59:29 <Zakim> -Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yolanda

15:59:30 <Zakim> -??P46

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P46

15:59:31 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

15:59:32 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

15:59:32 <Zakim> - +1.509.967.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.509.967.aabb

15:59:33 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

15:59:40 <satya> Tm, What is the construct that we can use for set of provenance assertions other than named graphs

Satya Sahoo: tim, What is the construct that we can use for set of provenance assertions other than named graphs

15:59:42 <Luc> yogesh, i ll do the necessary incantations from here

Luc Moreau: yogesh, i ll do the necessary incantations from here

15:59:47 <Yogesh> thanks luc

thanks luc

15:59:49 <satya> s/Tm/tim
15:59:51 <Zakim> -Vinh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Vinh

15:59:53 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

15:59:55 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

15:59:56 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

15:59:59 <Zakim> -??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P8

16:00:00 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:00:01 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, set log public

16:00:07 <Luc> thanks for scribing, yogesh

Luc Moreau: thanks for scribing, yogesh

16:00:14 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:00:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/29-prov-minutes.html Luc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/29-prov-minutes.html Luc

16:00:14 <Yogesh> zakim, part

zakim, part

16:00:19 <Zakim> -??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P4

16:00:25 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Vinh, Yogesh, Curt_Tilmes, dgarijo, Luc, +1.509.967.aabb, +1.315.330.aacc, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, khalidbelhajjame, jcheney, Yolanda,

Zakim IRC Bot: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Vinh, Yogesh, Curt_Tilmes, dgarijo, Luc, +1.509.967.aabb, +1.315.330.aacc, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, khalidbelhajjame, jcheney, Yolanda,

16:00:30 <Zakim> ... +1.512.524.aadd, jorn, Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.512.524.aadd, jorn, Paolo

16:00:30 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon

Luc Moreau: trackbot, end telcon



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