edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 18 August 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.18
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, David Corsar, Deborah McGuinness, Graham Klyne, Helena Deus, James Cheney, Jörn Hees, Kai Eckert, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Ralph Hodgson, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Stephen Cresswell, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Yogesh Simmhan, Yolanda Gil
Regrets
Khalid Belhajjame, Stephan Zednik
Chair
Luc Moreau
Scribe
Satya Sahoo, Daniel Garijo
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. the minutes of Aug 11 telecon link
Topics
  1. Admin

    Last week's minutes were approved.

  2. Provenance Implementation and Test Cases

    Lena updated the group on the second questionnaire. The working group is invited to comment on the second questionnaire before the next Aug 25 telcon.

  3. Connection Task Force

    Kai reported on progress, following Monday's teleconference on connection. The aim is still to produce an report by Aug 25; a structure has been outlined.

  4. Provenance Access Document

    Yogesh presented his work on applying the PAQ approach to the Access Scenario developed at the face to face meeting. This work resulted in a series of comments, for consideration by the PAQ document editors.

  5. Provenance Ontology

    Satya reported on progress on the ontology. The issue of uniformity of names was raised (choice of past or present tense, inclusion or not of a verb). Action on Luc to Poll the group about the conventions to follow.

  6. Provenance Model Document

    Paul wrote a section on shortcuts and extensions. The group is invited to comment on this section in the usual way.

14:31:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-prov-irc

14:31:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:31:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:31:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:31:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:31:43 <trackbot> Date: 18 August 2011
14:31:51 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:31:51 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 29 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 29 minutes

14:35:28 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.18
14:35:44 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:35:53 <Luc> Scribe: satya

(Scribe set to Satya Sahoo)

14:36:06 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

14:46:18 <Luc> Regrets: Khalid, Stephan Zednik
14:56:21 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 20 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:56:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:56:25 <Zakim> +Curt

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt

14:56:51 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

14:57:20 <Zakim> +??P1

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1

14:57:36 <Zakim> +satya

Zakim IRC Bot: +satya

14:57:37 <Luc> zakim, +??P1 is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, +??P1 is me

14:57:38 <Zakim> sorry, Luc, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Luc, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'

14:57:44 <Luc> zakim, ??P1 is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, ??P1 is me

14:57:44 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

14:57:51 <Luc> zakim, who is here?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is here?

14:57:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya

14:57:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot

14:58:11 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

14:58:24 <jorn> zakim, ??p22 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p22 is me

14:58:24 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

14:58:32 <Luc> topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: Last week's minutes were approved.

<luc>Summary: Last week's minutes were approved.
15:00:08 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aaaa

15:00:27 <Zakim> +??P33

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P33

15:00:41 <smiles> zakim, ??P33 is me

Simon Miles: zakim, ??P33 is me

15:00:41 <Zakim> +??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35

15:00:50 <Zakim> + +1.540.449.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.449.aabb

15:00:56 <Zakim> +smiles; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +smiles; got it

15:01:13 <Zakim> +??P41

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P41

15:01:20 <Yogesh> zakim, +1.540.449 is me

Yogesh Simmhan: zakim, +1.540.449 is me

15:01:27 <Zakim> +Yogesh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh; got it

15:01:29 <Zakim> +??P45

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P45

15:01:38 <Luc> zakim, who is here?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is here?

15:01:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, +1.315.330.aaaa, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, ??P45

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, +1.315.330.aaaa, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, ??P45

15:01:44 <Lena> zakim, ??P45 is me

Helena Deus: zakim, ??P45 is me

15:01:49 <Zakim> +Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda

15:01:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see StephenCresswell, Lena, tlebo, dcorsar, smiles, Yogesh, Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see StephenCresswell, Lena, tlebo, dcorsar, smiles, Yogesh, Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot

15:02:03 <Zakim> +Lena; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Lena; got it

15:02:03 <Lena> zakim, +??P45 is me

Helena Deus: zakim, +??P45 is me

15:02:04 <tlebo> Zakim, 315 is me

Timothy Lebo: Zakim, 315 is me

15:02:18 <Luc> @stain, are you ready to scribe? everything set up for you

Luc Moreau: @stain, are you ready to scribe? everything set up for you

15:02:20 <Zakim> sorry, Lena, I do not recognize a party named '+??P45'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Lena, I do not recognize a party named '+??P45'

15:02:23 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named '315'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named '315'

15:02:26 <tlebo> Zakim, aaaa is me

Timothy Lebo: Zakim, aaaa is me

15:02:52 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

15:03:45 <Zakim> + +1.858.210.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.858.210.aacc

15:04:06 <Luc> zakim, who is here?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is here?

15:04:37 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:04:41 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7

15:04:45 <kai> zakim, ??P7 is me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P7 is me.

15:04:46 <satya> scribe Satya

scribe Satya

15:05:07 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:05:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, tlebo, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, Lena, Yolanda, +1.858.210.aacc, ??P7, OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, tlebo, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, Lena, Yolanda, +1.858.210.aacc, ??P7, OpenLink_Software

15:05:25 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software  is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:05:25 <MacTed> zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: zakim, mute me

15:05:45 <satya> Luc: Covering the agenda items: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.18

Luc Moreau: Covering the agenda items: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.18

15:05:49 <Luc> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of Aug 11 telecon

PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of Aug 11 telecon

15:05:59 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:06:00 <satya> +1

+1

15:06:02 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:06:02 <kai> +1

Kai Eckert: +1

15:06:06 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:06:07 <Yogesh> +1

Yogesh Simmhan: +1

15:06:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, tlebo, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, Lena, Yolanda, +1.858.210.aacc, ??P7, OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, tlebo, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, Lena, Yolanda, +1.858.210.aacc, ??P7, OpenLink_Software

15:06:10 <dcorsar> +1

David Corsar: +1

15:06:25 <Zakim> +kai; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kai; got it

15:06:31 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

15:06:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see dgarijo, kai, StephenCresswell, Lena, tlebo, dcorsar, smiles, Yogesh, Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dgarijo, kai, StephenCresswell, Lena, tlebo, dcorsar, smiles, Yogesh, Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot

15:06:44 <Luc> ACCEPTED: the minutes of Aug 11 telecon

RESOLVED: the minutes of Aug 11 telecon

15:06:48 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:06:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:06:58 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P2 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P2 is me

15:07:01 <satya> Luc: A number of action items are open

Luc Moreau: A number of action items are open

15:07:20 <Zakim> -??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P2

15:07:23 <satya> Luc: Action 15 to Stephan

Luc Moreau: ACTION-15 to Stephan

15:07:50 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4

15:08:06 <satya> Lena: Stephan has completed the action item

Helena Deus: Stephan has completed the action item

15:08:18 <Helena> 2nd iteration to questionnaire: http://bit.ly/o7nR4n.

Helena Deus: 2nd iteration to questionnaire: http://bit.ly/o7nR4n.

15:08:24 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as ??P2, dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P2 as ??P2, dgarijo

15:08:39 <satya> Luc: Action 34 to James open

Luc Moreau: ACTION-34 to James open

15:09:25 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P4 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P4 is me

15:09:28 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:09:33 <satya> Luc: Action to Paul and Graham to clarify difference between resource and entity

Luc Moreau: Action to Paul and Graham to clarify difference between resource and entity

15:09:34 <Luc> TOPIC: Provenance Implementation and Test Cases

2. Provenance Implementation and Test Cases

Summary: Lena updated the group on the second questionnaire. The working group is invited to comment on the second questionnaire before the next Aug 25 telcon.

<Luc> Summary: Lena updated the group on the second questionnaire. The working group is invited to comment on the second questionnaire before the next Aug 25 telcon.
15:10:04 <satya> Luc: Update on Implementation task force

Luc Moreau: Update on Implementation task force

15:11:13 <satya> Lena: Updated the questionaire to clarify the following points: (a) define meaning of provenance, (b) privacy issue associated with response, (c) granularity of provenance

Helena Deus: Updated the questionaire to clarify the following points: (a) define meaning of provenance, (b) privacy issue associated with response, (c) granularity of provenance

15:11:18 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:12:24 <satya> Lena: Next step is to send the new questionaire to respondents of the first questionaire

Helena Deus: Next step is to send the new questionaire to respondents of the first questionaire

15:12:44 <satya> @Luc: James sent an email indicating he has completed his action item

@Luc: James sent an email indicating he has completed his action item

15:13:24 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:13:31 <satya> Lena: The working group is invited to respond to the second questionaire before the next Aug 25 telcon

Helena Deus: The working group is invited to respond to the second questionaire before the next Aug 25 telcon

15:13:39 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

15:13:39 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:13:46 <jorn> zakim, ??p21 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p21 is me

15:13:46 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:14:10 <satya> Luc: Can the issue raised by Deborah be accomodated?

Luc Moreau: Can the issue raised by Deborah be accomodated?

15:14:16 <satya> Lena: It can be accomodated

Helena Deus: It can be accomodated

15:14:07 <Luc> Topic: Connection Task Force

3. Connection Task Force

Summary: Kai reported on progress, following Monday's teleconference on connection. The aim is still to produce an report by Aug 25; a structure has been outlined.

<Luc>Summary: Kai reported on progress, following Monday's teleconference on connection. The aim is still to produce an report by Aug 25; a structure has been outlined.
15:14:29 <satya> Luc: Update from the Connection task force

Luc Moreau: Update from the Connection task force

15:14:40 <kai> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report

Kai Eckert: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report

15:15:19 <satya> Kai: Summarizing information about groups who may be interested in working with the Provenance WG

Kai Eckert: Summarizing information about groups who may be interested in working with the Provenance WG

15:16:02 <satya> Kai: A telcon was held on Monday by connection task force

Kai Eckert: A telcon was held on Monday by connection task force

15:16:16 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:16:18 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:16:34 <satya> Kai: Working to create a formal report

Kai Eckert: Working to create a formal report

15:16:40 <satya> Luc: What are the next steps

Luc Moreau: What are the next steps

15:17:18 <Zakim> + +1.518.763.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.763.aadd

15:17:37 <satya> Kai: Weekly telcon will be scheduled for discussion and work towards to create a formal document

Kai Eckert: Weekly telcon will be scheduled for discussion and work towards to create a formal document

15:18:01 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:18:08 <Luc> ack smiles

Luc Moreau: ack smiles

15:18:09 <satya> Kai: A draft report will be available by August 25 for comments

Kai Eckert: A draft report will be available by August 25 for comments

15:18:35 <StephenCresswell> +q

Stephen Cresswell: +q

15:18:57 <satya> Smiles: Discussed with ? group and reviewed the 5 points identified by the connection task force

Simon Miles: Discussed with ? group and reviewed the 5 points identified by the connection task force

15:19:34 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:19:36 <smiles> W3C semantic news community group

Simon Miles: W3C semantic news community group

15:19:47 <satya> Smiles: In regular contact with W3C semantic news community group

Simon Miles: In regular contact with W3C semantic news community group

15:20:18 <smiles> @satya actually irregular :-)

Simon Miles: @satya actually irregular :-)

15:20:39 <Zakim> +??P29

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P29

15:20:49 <kai> q+

Kai Eckert: q+

15:20:58 <Luc> ack step

Luc Moreau: ack step

15:21:30 <GK> zakim, ??p29 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p29 is me

15:21:30 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

15:21:37 <kai> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connections_Template_Catalog

Kai Eckert: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connections_Template_Catalog

15:22:12 <StephenCresswell> I made contact with the Government Linked data WG - they have identified prov WG as a connection in their charter

Stephen Cresswell: I made contact with the Government Linked data WG - they have identified prov WG as a connection in their charter

15:22:29 <Luc> ack kai

Luc Moreau: ack kai

15:22:41 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:23:20 <satya> Stephen: Contacted with Government Linked Data WG and working with them to identify areas of possible collaboration

Stephen Cresswell: Contacted with Government Linked Data WG and working with them to identify areas of possible collaboration

15:23:20 <Luc> topic: Provenance Access Document

4. Provenance Access Document

Summary: Yogesh presented his work on applying the PAQ approach to the Access Scenario developed at the face to face meeting. This work resulted in a series of comments, for consideration by the PAQ document editors.

<Luc>Summary: Yogesh presented his work on applying the PAQ approach to the Access Scenario developed at the face to face meeting.  This work resulted in a series of comments, for consideration by the PAQ document editors.
15:24:34 <satya> Graham: Working to incorporate suggestions from Yogesh in the PAQ document

Graham Klyne: Working to incorporate suggestions from Yogesh in the PAQ document

15:24:58 <Yogesh> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenarioUsingPAQ

Yogesh Simmhan: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenarioUsingPAQ

15:25:36 <satya> Yogesh: Working to ensure that the PAQ document covers the scenarios discussed during the F2F

Yogesh Simmhan: Working to ensure that the PAQ document covers the scenarios discussed during the F2F

15:26:20 <satya> Yogesh: Discussing first scenario "Online HTML Documents D1 and D2 (Resource provider aware of provenance)"

Yogesh Simmhan: Discussing first scenario "Online HTML Documents D1 and D2 (Resource provider aware of provenance)"

15:27:17 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:27:49 <GK> @yogesh: this looks useful, material here useful for some in-document example sequences, I think :)

Graham Klyne: @yogesh: this looks useful, material here useful for some in-document example sequences, I think :)

15:28:00 <satya> Yogesh: The HTTP header captures both the provenance of the document and the context information

Yogesh Simmhan: The HTTP header captures both the provenance of the document and the context information

15:28:48 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:29:06 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:29:19 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

15:29:31 <jorn> zakim, ??p21 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p21 is me

15:29:31 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:29:40 <Zakim> +??P32

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P32

15:29:40 <satya> Yogesh: Two variations, one uses the anchor attribute and the second uses rel = "anchor"

Yogesh Simmhan: Two variations, one uses the anchor attribute and the second uses rel = "anchor"

15:29:46 <Zakim> + +1.650.386.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.386.aaee

15:30:06 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:30:33 <satya> Yogesh: Describes how the "oh yeah" feature can be implemented in the first scenario

Yogesh Simmhan: Describes how the "oh yeah" feature can be implemented in the first scenario

15:30:53 <satya> Yogesh: Moving to the second scenario: "Online Image Document D3 (Resource provider aware of provenance)"

Yogesh Simmhan: Moving to the second scenario: "Online Image Document D3 (Resource provider aware of provenance)"

15:31:36 <Zakim> -Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yolanda

15:32:08 <satya> Yogesh: There is no difference between this scenario (with image) and the first scenario (with document)

Yogesh Simmhan: There is no difference between this scenario (with image) and the first scenario (with document)

15:32:28 <satya> Yogesh: Describing the third scenario: "HTML Document D5 as Email attachment "

Yogesh Simmhan: Describing the third scenario: "HTML Document D5 as Email attachment "

15:32:59 <Zakim> +Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda

15:33:39 <satya> Yogesh: Use of "link" element to provide the provenance and anchor information

Yogesh Simmhan: Use of "link" element to provide the provenance and anchor information

15:33:40 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:34:17 <satya> Yogesh: Discussing the fourth scenario: " HTML Document D7 in the File System (Using provenance service)"

Yogesh Simmhan: Discussing the fourth scenario: " HTML Document D7 in the File System (Using provenance service)"

15:35:05 <satya> Yogesh: Again using the link element, but the provenance is from a "provenance-service"

Yogesh Simmhan: Again using the link element, but the provenance is from a "provenance-service"

15:35:51 <GK> My battery about to fail.  Yogesh, this looks good to me.  Sorry I probably won't hear you out.

Graham Klyne: My battery about to fail. Yogesh, this looks good to me. Sorry I probably won't hear you out.

15:36:14 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aaff

15:36:16 <Zakim> - +1.518.763.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.763.aadd

15:36:32 <satya> Yogesh: The provenance service returns a JSON file with template information (three templates)

Yogesh Simmhan: The provenance service returns a JSON file with template information (three templates)

15:36:57 <satya> q+

q+

15:37:19 <jorn> (fixed the GET target)

Jörn Hees: (fixed the GET target)

15:37:32 <GK> In practice, I'd expect just one of location or provenance templates to be present, though both as here would be legal.

Graham Klyne: In practice, I'd expect just one of location or provenance templates to be present, though both as here would be legal.

15:37:47 <satya> Yogesh: Three templates (a) provenance_service_uri, (b) location_template, and (c) provenance_template

Yogesh Simmhan: Three templates (a) provenance_service_uri, (b) location_template, and (c) provenance_template

15:38:01 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:38:09 <GK> Provenance service URI is not a template, just the other two.

Graham Klyne: Provenance service URI is not a template, just the other two.

15:38:49 <GK> Templates are used here to conform to REST principles of hypertext as engine of app state

Graham Klyne: Templates are used here to conform to REST principles of hypertext as engine of app state

15:38:52 <satya> Yogesh: Discussing the fifth scenario: "Online Image Document D4 (Using provenance service)"

Yogesh Simmhan: Discussing the fifth scenario: "Online Image Document D4 (Using provenance service)"

15:39:13 <Zakim> +??P26

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26

15:40:25 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:40:33 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:41:05 <Luc> ack sat

Luc Moreau: ack sat

15:41:49 <GK> There's a ref to the template spec in the actual document.

Graham Klyne: There's a ref to the template spec in the actual document.

15:42:02 <GK> It's currently IETF WIP.

Graham Klyne: It's currently IETF WIP.

15:42:39 <DeborahM> I was only on a cell phone before when the report happened on the connection to the open govt data working group and my irc does not show the previous notes.  Is there a place to see what was typed before on that status?  and is there an initial use case that is most appropriate to us?

Deborah McGuinness: I was only on a cell phone before when the report happened on the connection to the open govt data working group and my irc does not show the previous notes. Is there a place to see what was typed before on that status? and is there an initial use case that is most appropriate to us?

15:43:11 <jorn> DeborahM: could priv-msg it to you

Deborah McGuinness: could priv-msg it to you [ Scribe Assist by Jörn Hees ]

15:43:20 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:43:24 <Luc> ack smi

Luc Moreau: ack smi

15:43:44 <GK> @smiles - these are currently alternatives - we might chose, or allow both

Graham Klyne: @smiles - these are currently alternatives - we might chose, or allow both

15:44:01 <satya> Smiles: Are both the alternatives available to the users

Simon Miles: Are both the alternatives available to the users

15:44:24 <satya> Yogesh: This is an outstanding issue to be discussed

Yogesh Simmhan: This is an outstanding issue to be discussed

15:44:25 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:44:45 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:44:55 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

15:45:02 <satya> Yogesh: We either re-use anchor attribute or introduce an "anchor" relation

Yogesh Simmhan: We either re-use anchor attribute or introduce an "anchor" relation

15:45:06 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:45:51 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:45:52 <jorn> q+ what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email?

Jörn Hees: q+ what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email?

15:45:59 <satya> Luc: has Yogesh made suggestions/comments regarding the PAQ document?

Luc Moreau: has Yogesh made suggestions/comments regarding the PAQ document?

15:46:11 <Luc> ack jorn

Luc Moreau: ack jorn

15:46:12 <satya> Yogesh: Yes, Graham is working to address them

Yogesh Simmhan: Yes, Graham is working to address them

15:46:29 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:47:51 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:48:31 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:48:36 <jorn> what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email?

Jörn Hees: what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email?

15:48:45 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Ontology

5. Provenance Ontology

Summary: Satya reported on progress on the ontology. The issue of uniformity of names was raised (choice of past or present tense, inclusion or not of a verb). Action on Luc to Poll the group about the conventions to follow.

<Luc>Summary: Satya reported on progress on the ontology. The issue of uniformity of names was raised (choice of past or present tense, inclusion or not of a verb). Action on Luc to Poll the group about the conventions to follow.
15:48:52 <satya> Jorn: what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email?

Jörn Hees: what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email?

<luc>Scribe:dgarijo

(Scribe set to Daniel Garijo)

15:49:20 <dgarijo> satya: We had a telecon on Monday

Satya Sahoo: We had a telecon on Monday

15:49:37 <dgarijo> satya: tried to import an scenario to RDF as an example

Satya Sahoo: tried to import an scenario to RDF as an example

15:49:59 <dgarijo> ... other issues: with used, particpation and generation

... other issues: with used, particpation and generation

15:50:22 <dgarijo> ... also putting uses in the past tense rather than in present tense

... also putting uses in the past tense rather than in present tense

15:50:34 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:50:42 <dgarijo> ... transform isUsedBy into used

... transform isUsedBy into used

15:50:44 <ralph_> q+

Ralph Hodgson: q+

15:51:33 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:51:40 <dgarijo> ... if both used and generatedBy are subproperties of participation there are problems with the domains and ranges. Could we make inverse properties?

... if both used and generatedBy are subproperties of participation there are problems with the domains and ranges. Could we make inverse properties?

15:51:46 <dgarijo> +q

+q

15:52:00 <ralph_> The silent 'has' rule is a useful one

Ralph Hodgson: The silent 'has' rule is a useful one

15:52:38 <ralph_> drop 'is' from all predicates that have a suffix, such as 'of' - no need for 'is'

Ralph Hodgson: drop 'is' from all predicates that have a suffix, such as 'of' - no need for 'is'

15:52:45 <dgarijo> satya: James has been working on the formal semantics

Satya Sahoo: James has been working on the formal semantics

15:52:56 <satya> Discussion wiki for provenance formal model: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology

Satya Sahoo: Discussion wiki for provenance formal model: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology

15:53:03 <jcheney> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#PIL:0001

James Cheney: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#PIL:0001

15:53:03 <ralph_> consider 'usage' instead of 'uses'

Ralph Hodgson: consider 'usage' instead of 'uses'

15:53:30 <dgarijo> @ralph_: we took the names from the formal model :)

@ralph_: we took the names from the formal model :)

15:54:40 <jcheney> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#PIL:0001

James Cheney: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#PIL:0001

15:54:42 <DeborahM> One overriding discussion on the uses or used includes that we want consistency of tense in the entire model.  It may be that all of the roles/properties use past tense while the classes (if tense is included) may use present tense.  There is a start at the evaluation of how all of the roles look if we use past tense.

Deborah McGuinness: One overriding discussion on the uses or used includes that we want consistency of tense in the entire model. It may be that all of the roles/properties use past tense while the classes (if tense is included) may use present tense. There is a start at the evaluation of how all of the roles look if we use past tense.

15:54:50 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:55:00 <DeborahM> +

Deborah McGuinness: +

15:55:02 <ralph_> By 'silent has' I mean that a predicate that does not have any suffix  that forms a phrase should be raed as having a 'has'. This removes the need to have predicates that embody tense: 'hasRole', 'wasRole' and 'willHaveRole'

Ralph Hodgson: By 'silent has' I mean that a predicate that does not have any suffix that forms a phrase should be raed as having a 'has'. This removes the need to have predicates that embody tense: 'hasRole', 'wasRole' and 'willHaveRole'

15:55:17 <ralph_> raed -> read

Ralph Hodgson: raed -> read

15:55:18 <DeborahM> -1 for usage

Deborah McGuinness: -1 for usage

15:55:30 <dgarijo> -1 for usage

-1 for usage

15:55:43 <ralph_> no tense

Ralph Hodgson: no tense

15:56:39 <ralph_> Consider use of SKOS for labels

Ralph Hodgson: Consider use of SKOS for labels

<luc>Scribe: satya

(Scribe set to Satya Sahoo)

15:56:58 <dgarijo> why not rdf:label?

Daniel Garijo: why not rdf:label?

15:57:26 <DeborahM> one rationale for the best practices documents being a wiki page or html document but we expect this to evolve and we did not want it as part of the static document

Deborah McGuinness: one rationale for the best practices documents being a wiki page or html document but we expect this to evolve and we did not want it as part of the static document

15:57:26 <ralph_> because SKOS has more precise semantics - prefLabel, altLabel

Ralph Hodgson: because SKOS has more precise semantics - prefLabel, altLabel

15:57:46 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:57:51 <DeborahM> +

Deborah McGuinness: +

15:57:55 <DeborahM> +q

Deborah McGuinness: +q

15:57:56 <Luc> ack ral

Luc Moreau: ack ral

15:58:46 <Luc> action: Luc to poll the WG about use of tense (present or past) for properties

ACTION: Luc to poll the WG about use of tense (present or past) for properties

15:58:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Poll the WG about use of tense (present or past) for properties [on Luc Moreau - due 2011-08-25].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-36 - Poll the WG about use of tense (present or past) for properties [on Luc Moreau - due 2011-08-25].

15:59:10 <satya> @Daniel: thanks for help with scribing :)

@Daniel: thanks for help with scribing :)

15:59:22 <dgarijo> @satya: np

Daniel Garijo: @satya: np

15:59:41 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:59:45 <Luc> ack dga

Luc Moreau: ack dga

16:00:37 <Zakim> -??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P21

16:00:56 <satya> DanielG: Question about the "participation" - the current document does not describe "generation" as specialization of "participation"

Daniel Garijo: Question about the "participation" - the current document does not describe "generation" as specialization of "participation"

16:01:07 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:01:12 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

16:01:15 <jorn> zakim, ??p12 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p12 is me

16:01:22 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

16:02:13 <Luc> ack deb

Luc Moreau: ack deb

16:02:24 <dgarijo> the problem with grouping both relationships under participation is that you make process execution the domain of every relationship

Daniel Garijo: the problem with grouping both relationships under participation is that you make process execution the domain of every relationship

16:02:27 <satya> Luc: No consensus on "generation" as specialization of "participation"

Luc Moreau: No consensus on "generation" as specialization of "participation"

16:03:30 <satya> Deborah: Most of the ontologies use "present tense"

Deborah McGuinness: Most of the ontologies use "present tense"

16:03:35 <DeborahM> Considering action 36, I suggest that we will be most informed if we look at concrete options.  The poll could have two levels – abstract level – present or past – and then concrete level – get as concrete a listing as we can get and make a present vs past tense list and let people review the concrete list.

Deborah McGuinness: Considering ACTION-36, I suggest that we will be most informed if we look at concrete options. The poll could have two levels – abstract level – present or past – and then concrete level – get as concrete a listing as we can get and make a present vs past tense list and let people review the concrete list.

16:04:02 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:06:16 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:07:41 <ralph_> I mentioned CIDOC-CRM - ontologies for Musuems, ARt Collections and Cultural Heritage - this has some notions of provenance - see http://www.cidoc-crm.org/

Ralph Hodgson: I mentioned CIDOC-CRM - ontologies for Musuems, ARt Collections and Cultural Heritage - this has some notions of provenance - see http://www.cidoc-crm.org/

16:07:52 <MacTed> seems that one need is for a superProperty "input" of which the more specific inputs are subProperties...

Ted Thibodeau: seems that one need is for a superProperty "input" of which the more specific inputs are subProperties...

16:07:59 <ralph_> The standard is at http://www.cidoc-crm.org/docs/cidoc_crm_version_5.0.2.pdf

Ralph Hodgson: The standard is at http://www.cidoc-crm.org/docs/cidoc_crm_version_5.0.2.pdf

16:08:01 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Model Document

6. Provenance Model Document

Summary: Paul wrote a section on shortcuts and extensions. The group is invited to comment on this section in the usual way.

<luc>Summary: Paul wrote a section on shortcuts and extensions. The group is invited to comment on this section in the usual way.
16:08:11 <Luc>    http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#shortcuts-and-extensions

Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#shortcuts-and-extensions

16:08:34 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:08:47 <satya> q+

q+

16:09:20 <Zakim> -Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yolanda

16:09:37 <satya> ack satya

ack satya

16:10:30 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:10:33 <ralph_> q+

Ralph Hodgson: q+

16:10:39 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:10:42 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.276.aaff

16:10:43 <Zakim> -smiles

Zakim IRC Bot: -smiles

16:10:48 <Zakim> -??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P35

16:10:48 <Zakim> - +1.858.210.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.858.210.aacc

16:10:54 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:10:57 <Zakim> -satya

Zakim IRC Bot: -satya

16:10:57 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:10:59 <Zakim> -??P26

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P26

16:11:00 <Zakim> - +1.650.386.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.650.386.aaee

16:11:01 <Zakim> -kai

Zakim IRC Bot: -kai

16:11:08 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:11:09 <Zakim> -Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh

16:11:12 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

16:11:19 <Zakim> -??P32

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P32

16:11:20 <Zakim> -??P41

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P41

16:11:22 <Zakim> -Curt

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt

16:11:26 <Zakim> -Lena

Zakim IRC Bot: -Lena

16:17:32 <ralph_> quit

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Ralph Hodgson: quit

16:35:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, GK, in SW_(PROV)11:00AM

(No events recorded for 17 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, GK, in SW_(PROV)11:00AM

16:35:04 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

16:35:06 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], Curt, satya, Luc, jorn, +1.315.330.aaaa, +1.540.449.aabb, smiles, Yogesh, Yolanda, Lena, tlebo, +1.858.210.aacc, kai, MacTed, dgarijo, +1.518.763.aadd,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were [IPcaller], Curt, satya, Luc, jorn, +1.315.330.aaaa, +1.540.449.aabb, smiles, Yogesh, Yolanda, Lena, tlebo, +1.858.210.aacc, kai, MacTed, dgarijo, +1.518.763.aadd,

16:35:09 <Zakim> ... GK, +1.650.386.aaee, +1.518.276.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: ... GK, +1.650.386.aaee, +1.518.276.aaff



Formatted by CommonScribe