edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 19 May 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
Seen
Carl Reed, Christine Runnegar, Daniel Garijo, Edoardo Pignotti, Eric Stephan, Graham Klyne, Iker Huerga, Ilkay Altintas, James Frew, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Jörn Hees, Kai Eckert, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Olaf Hartig, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Paulo Pinheiro da Silva, Sam Coppens, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Simon Dobson, Stephan Zednik, Timothy Lebo, Vinh Nguyen, Yogesh Simmhan, Yolanda Gil, david schaengold
Guests
Paolo Missier, Satya Sahoo, Yogesh Simmhan, Yolanda Gil
Regrets
Kai Eckert
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Simon Miles
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. minutes accepted link
  2. continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands link
  3. use incubator report access architecture as starting point for access and query task force F2F draft link
  4. use issue tracking to discuss concept definitions link
  5. start with informal definitions, grounded with example link
Topics
  1. Admin

    The last minutes were accepted, active Wiki topics are now linked from the front page, invited expert issues are still being resolved by the W3C, and all are encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.

    1. Last week's minutes

    2. Action items to review

    3. Invited experts update

    4. Scribes

  2. Data journalism example

    We will use the current example to start model discussions, but can continue to comment on it on the mailing list, and will extend it when we find it cannot illustrate an important concept.

  3. Provenance access and query task force

    The Provenance Access and Query Task Force will start from the incubator group report for developing a draft architecture. We will not design a query language, but will say how existing query languages/models work with the architecture.

  4. Concepts illustration

    We will have a Wiki page per concept and use the issue tracker to discuss definitions. Definitions will be informal and grounded with the example.

14:45:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-irc

14:45:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:45:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:45:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:45:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:45:07 <trackbot> Date: 19 May 2011
14:45:17 <luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:45:17 <Zakim> ok, luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes

14:45:40 <luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
14:45:55 <luc> Chair: Paul Groth
14:46:08 <luc> Scribe: smiles

(Scribe set to Simon Miles)

14:46:22 <luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

14:47:38 <luc> Regrets: Kai Eckert
14:51:15 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:51:17 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

14:51:28 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P12 is pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P12 is pgroth

14:51:28 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:51:37 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:51:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth

14:52:45 <Zakim> +luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +luc

14:52:47 <Zakim> -luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -luc

14:52:47 <Zakim> +luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +luc

14:53:42 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

14:53:55 <smiles> zakim, ??P21 is me

zakim, ??P21 is me

14:53:55 <Zakim> +smiles; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +smiles; got it

14:57:20 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aaaa

14:57:50 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

14:58:06 <Zakim> +DavidSchaengold

Zakim IRC Bot: +DavidSchaengold

14:58:30 <tlebo> What command do I use to associate my irc handle to my phone?

Timothy Lebo: What command do I use to associate my irc handle to my phone?

14:58:39 <Zakim> +??P30

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30

14:58:44 <pgroth> \me Zakim blah is blah

Paul Groth: \me Zakim blah is blah

14:59:13 <Zakim> + +1.858.210.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.858.210.aabb

14:59:15 <jorn> Zakim: ??P30 is me
14:59:23 <tlebo> \me Zakim P22 is tlebo

Timothy Lebo: \me Zakim P22 is tlebo

14:59:26 <Zakim> +??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35

14:59:32 <tlebo> Zakim P22 is tlebo

Timothy Lebo: Zakim P22 is tlebo

14:59:49 <jorn> Zakim, ??P30 is me

Jörn Hees: Zakim, ??P30 is me

14:59:49 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

14:59:50 <tlebo> Zakim, ??P22 is tlebo

Timothy Lebo: Zakim, ??P22 is tlebo

14:59:50 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

14:59:50 <Zakim> + +1.805.893.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.805.893.aacc

14:59:52 <Zakim> +??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37

15:00:12 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P37 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P37 is me

15:00:12 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:00:17 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

15:00:45 <Zakim> +SatyaSahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +SatyaSahoo

15:00:53 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?

Jörn Hees: zakim, who is talking?

15:00:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's there?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's there?

15:00:54 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pgroth.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, pgroth.

15:01:00 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4

15:01:03 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (28%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (28%)

15:01:28 <Zakim> +paolo_

Zakim IRC Bot: +paolo_

15:01:34 <Zakim> +olaf

Zakim IRC Bot: +olaf

15:01:51 <luc> Guest: Paolo (paolo_) Missier
15:01:54 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.633.aadd

15:02:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:02:14 <luc> Guest: Satya Sahoo
15:02:18 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the call?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's on the call?

15:02:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,

15:02:22 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.518.633.aadd, [IPcaller]

15:02:26 <Zakim> +Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh

15:02:32 <luc> Guest: Yogesh Simmhan
15:02:35 <jun> zakim, [IPcaller] is jun

Jun Zhao: zakim, [IPcaller] is jun

15:02:36 <Zakim> +??P40

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P40

15:02:40 <Zakim> +jun; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it

15:02:43 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P40 is me

James Cheney: Zakim, ??P40 is me

15:02:51 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:02:53 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:02:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,

15:03:03 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney

15:03:04 <frew> I am +1.805.893.aacc

James Frew: I am +1.805.893.aacc

15:03:06 <Zakim> +??P42

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P42

15:03:31 <zednik> I am +1.518.633.aadd

Stephan Zednik: I am +1.518.633.aadd

15:03:40 <dgarijo> Zakim, 1.805.893.aacc is frew

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, 1.805.893.aacc is frew

15:03:40 <Zakim> sorry, dgarijo, I do not recognize a party named '1.805.893.aacc'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, dgarijo, I do not recognize a party named '1.805.893.aacc'

15:03:45 <Zakim> +??P44

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P44

15:03:54 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

15:03:56 <Christine> Hi. Sorry everyone. I'm not sure how to assign myself. Calling using VOIP. (Thanks Luc, you did send instructions.)

Christine Runnegar: Hi. Sorry everyone. I'm not sure how to assign myself. Calling using VOIP. (Thanks Luc, you did send instructions.)

15:04:11 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:04:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,

15:04:14 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, ??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, ??P8

15:04:14 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P8 is really me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P8 is really me

15:04:14 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:04:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:04:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,

15:04:58 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame

15:05:00 <frew> +q

James Frew: +q

15:05:39 <jorn> zakim, aad is zednik

Jörn Hees: zakim, aad is zednik

15:05:39 <Zakim> sorry, jorn, I do not recognize a party named 'aad'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, jorn, I do not recognize a party named 'aad'

15:05:40 <dgarijo> \me Type: "Zakim, <YOUR id> is me"

Daniel Garijo: \me Type: "Zakim, <YOUR id> is me"

15:05:45 <jorn> zakim, aadd is zednik

Jörn Hees: zakim, aadd is zednik

15:05:45 <Zakim> +zednik; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +zednik; got it

15:05:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's on the phone

15:05:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who's on the phone', pgroth

15:06:01 <jorn> zakim, aacc is frew

Jörn Hees: zakim, aacc is frew

15:06:01 <Zakim> +frew; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +frew; got it

15:06:04 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:06:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun,

15:06:09 <Zakim> ... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame

15:06:21 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19

15:06:21 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

15:06:27 <frew> zakim, frew is +1-805-893-7356

James Frew: zakim, frew is +1-805-893-7356

15:06:27 <Zakim> ++1-805-893-7356; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: ++1-805-893-7356; got it

15:06:37 <smiles> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
15:06:46 <Zakim> +Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda

15:06:52 <CarlOGC> zakim skype carl.n.reed CarlOGC

Carl Reed: zakim skype carl.n.reed CarlOGC

15:06:57 <GK> +??P44

Graham Klyne: +??P44

15:07:01 <pgroth>   http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-05-12

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-05-12

15:07:01 <luc> Guest: Yolanda Gil
15:07:01 <smiles> TOPIC: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: The last minutes were accepted, active Wiki topics are now linked from the front page, invited expert issues are still being resolved by the W3C, and all are encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.

15:07:01 <smiles> SUMMARY: The last minutes were accepted, active Wiki topics are now linked from the front page, invited expert issues are still being resolved by the W3C, and all are encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.
15:07:02 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Last week's minutes

1.1. Last week's minutes

15:07:13 <pgroth> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of 12 May telecon

PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of 12 May telecon

15:07:20 <simoninireland> +1

Simon Dobson: +1

15:07:21 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:07:21 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:07:22 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:07:23 <DavidSchaengold> +1

david schaengold: +1

15:07:23 <smiles> +1

+1

15:07:23 <SamCoppens> zakim, +??44 is SamCoppens

Sam Coppens: zakim, +??44 is SamCoppens

15:07:23 <Zakim> sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '+??44'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '+??44'

15:07:24 <frew> +1

James Frew: +1

15:07:25 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:07:26 <jorn> +1

Jörn Hees: +1

15:07:28 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:07:29 <Edoardo_and_David> +1

Edoardo Pignotti: +1

15:07:37 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

15:07:42 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:07:45 <iker> +1

Iker Huerga: +1

15:07:46 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:07:48 <SamCoppens> zakim, ??44 is SamCoppens

Sam Coppens: zakim, ??44 is SamCoppens

15:07:49 <Zakim> sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '??44'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '??44'

15:07:55 <GK> Zakim, who's on the phone?

Graham Klyne: Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:07:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1-805-893-7356, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1-805-893-7356, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,

15:08:01 <Zakim> ... zednik, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: ... zednik, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda

15:08:04 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?

Jörn Hees: zakim, who is talking?

15:08:14 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 25 (3%), pgroth (54%), DavidSchaengold (24%), ??P35 (51%), ??P44 (12%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 25 (3%), pgroth (54%), DavidSchaengold (24%), ??P35 (51%), ??P44 (12%)

15:08:16 <pgroth> RESOLVED: minutes accepted

RESOLVED: minutes accepted

15:08:17 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Action items to review

1.2. Action items to review

15:08:18 <pgroth>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

15:08:25 <tlebo> Zakim, ??P44 is SamCoppens

Timothy Lebo: Zakim, ??P44 is SamCoppens

15:08:25 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it

15:08:31 <SamCoppens> thanks

Sam Coppens: thanks

15:09:02 <smiles> pgroth: completed action to add links to examples (active topics from front Wiki page)

Paul Groth: completed action to add links to examples (active topics from front Wiki page)

15:09:14 <frew> zakim, +1-805-893-7356 is me

James Frew: zakim, +1-805-893-7356 is me

15:09:14 <Zakim> +frew; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +frew; got it

15:09:23 <smiles> ... I encourage all to add links to the front page when there are new active topics

... I encourage all to add links to the front page when there are new active topics

15:09:41 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:09:46 <pgroth> ack frew

Paul Groth: ack frew

15:09:54 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Invited experts update

1.3. Invited experts update

15:09:55 <smiles> pgroth: slowly resolving issues regarding getting everyone into the group, and on the mailing list

Paul Groth: slowly resolving issues regarding getting everyone into the group, and on the mailing list

15:10:07 <GK> Zakim, who's on the phone?

Graham Klyne: Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:10:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun,

15:10:10 <Zakim> ... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, SamCoppens, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, SamCoppens, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda

15:10:19 <smiles> satya: how soon will invited expert issues be resolved?

Satya Sahoo: how soon will invited expert issues be resolved?

15:10:30 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q-

15:10:37 <Zakim> -SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens

15:10:44 <smiles> pgroth: don't know, this is an issue that the W3C handles

Paul Groth: don't know, this is an issue that the W3C handles

15:10:47 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes

15:11:01 <Zakim> +??P44

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P44

15:11:13 <GK> zakim, ??P44 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??P44 is me

15:11:13 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

15:11:16 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Scribes

1.4. Scribes

15:11:17 <smiles> pgroth: we need scribes for the next weeks - please add you names, else will pick on people

Paul Groth: we need scribes for the next weeks - please add you names, else will pick on people

15:11:36 <luc> see instructions http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp

Luc Moreau: see instructions http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp

15:11:53 <luc> we can help set up before meeting

Luc Moreau: we can help set up before meeting

15:12:03 <smiles> pgroth: the responsibility of scribes is to write summaries of what people say, and instructions are available at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp

Paul Groth: the responsibility of scribes is to write summaries of what people say, and instructions are available at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp

15:12:27 <pgroth>  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample

15:12:42 <smiles> TOPIC: Data journalism example

2. Data journalism example

Summary: We will use the current example to start model discussions, but can continue to comment on it on the mailing list, and will extend it when we find it cannot illustrate an important concept.

15:12:43 <smiles> SUMMARY: We will use the current example to start model discussions, but can continue to comment on it on the mailing list, and will extend it when we find it cannot illustrate an important concept.
15:12:56 <jorn> zakim,, who|s noisy

Jörn Hees: zakim,, who|s noisy

15:13:00 <Zakim> I don't understand ', who|s noisy', jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand ', who|s noisy', jorn

15:13:05 <smiles> pgroth: we decided to take an example-based approach, comments were received, are there any more?

Paul Groth: we decided to take an example-based approach, comments were received, are there any more?

15:13:09 <jorn> zakim, who's noisy

Jörn Hees: zakim, who's noisy

15:13:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who's noisy', jorn

15:13:38 <GK> zakim, who is talking

Graham Klyne: zakim, who is talking

15:13:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', GK

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is talking', GK

15:13:46 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?

Jörn Hees: zakim, who is talking?

15:13:50 <dgarijo> zakim, who is making noise?

Daniel Garijo: zakim, who is making noise?

15:13:54 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:13:58 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), +1.518.276.aaaa (4%), Yolanda (51%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), +1.518.276.aaaa (4%), Yolanda (51%)

15:14:09 <Zakim> dgarijo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (5%), pgroth (32%), Yolanda (43%)

Zakim IRC Bot: dgarijo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (5%), pgroth (32%), Yolanda (43%)

15:14:10 <smiles> YolandaG: likes the example, but where we illustrate what a provenance container is, we need to be clear that not all provenance may be in that container - one may need to access other areas to retrieve other provenance data for the resource

Yolanda Gil: likes the example, but where we illustrate what a provenance container is, we need to be clear that not all provenance may be in that container - one may need to access other areas to retrieve other provenance data for the resource

15:14:30 <Zakim> -smiles

Zakim IRC Bot: -smiles

15:14:35 <Zakim> +??P45

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P45

15:14:46 <jorn> zakim, ??P45 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??P45 is me

15:14:46 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:14:56 <jun> +1 to YolandaG

Jun Zhao: +1 to YolandaG

15:15:15 <luc> tlebo: multiple sources are not represented yet in the example

Timothy Lebo: multiple sources are not represented yet in the example [ Scribe Assist by Luc Moreau ]

15:15:25 <Zakim> +VinhNguyen

Zakim IRC Bot: +VinhNguyen

15:15:32 <pgroth> Zakim, mute YolandaG

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute YolandaG

15:15:32 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to YolandaG

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to YolandaG

15:15:35 <Zakim> +??P46

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P46

15:15:40 <pgroth> Zakim, mute Yolanda

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute Yolanda

15:15:40 <Zakim> Yolanda should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Yolanda should now be muted

15:15:55 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?

Jörn Hees: zakim, who is talking?

15:16:02 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:16:06 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (9%), pgroth (43%), DavidSchaengold (13%), ??P35 (14%), smiles (18%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (9%), pgroth (43%), DavidSchaengold (13%), ??P35 (14%), smiles (18%)

15:16:38 <smiles> CarlOGC: asks about incorporating a map into the example, and will send to the mailing list a few words to incorporate

Carl Reed: asks about incorporating a map into the example, and will send to the mailing list a few words to incorporate

15:16:49 <tlebo> would the group mind expanding the variables used in the scenario? (e.g. lcp1)

Timothy Lebo: would the group mind expanding the variables used in the scenario? (e.g. lcp1)

<luc> post meeting editing: lcp stands for local copy

Luc Moreau: post meeting editing: lcp stands for local copy

15:17:12 <tlebo> +1 to continuing with example.

Timothy Lebo: +1 to continuing with example.

15:17:27 <smiles> pgroth: can we proceed with example as is, and expand as we go along - nice to move on to discussing concepts

Paul Groth: can we proceed with example as is, and expand as we go along - nice to move on to discussing concepts

15:17:29 <GK> +1 to moving on, update example as needed.

Graham Klyne: +1 to moving on, update example as needed.

15:17:48 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for continuing to change the example along instead of trying to get right now

Khalid Belhajjame: +1 for continuing to change the example along instead of trying to get right now

15:17:55 <pgroth> proposal: continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands

PROPOSED: continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands

15:17:57 <YogeshSimmhan> +1

Yogesh Simmhan: +1

15:17:58 <jorn> +1

Jörn Hees: +1

15:18:00 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:18:02 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:18:02 <satya> I agree, we should start with the example and let it evolve

Satya Sahoo: I agree, we should start with the example and let it evolve

15:18:02 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:18:03 <olaf> +1 to moving on

Olaf Hartig: +1 to moving on

15:18:03 <smiles> +1

+1

15:18:04 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?

Jörn Hees: zakim, who is talking?

15:18:06 <Edoardo_and_David> +1

Edoardo Pignotti: +1

15:18:07 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:18:09 <paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:18:11 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:18:12 <iker> +1 moving on

Iker Huerga: +1 moving on

15:18:15 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (27%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (27%)

15:18:18 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:18:19 <simoninireland> +1

Simon Dobson: +1

15:18:20 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:18:23 <jorn> zakim, please mute khalidbelhajjame

Jörn Hees: zakim, please mute khalidbelhajjame

15:18:23 <Zakim> khalidbelhajjame should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: khalidbelhajjame should now be muted

15:18:28 <VinhNguyen> +1

Vinh Nguyen: +1

15:18:35 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

15:18:37 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

15:19:01 <pgroth> proposal accepted

Paul Groth: proposal accepted

15:19:01 <smiles> RESOLVED: continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands

RESOLVED: continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands

15:19:02 <tlebo> +q

Timothy Lebo: +q

15:19:03 <DavidSchaengold> +1

david schaengold: +1

15:19:15 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

15:19:28 <smiles> tlebo: what are the next steps beyond making tweaks to scenario?

Timothy Lebo: what are the next steps beyond making tweaks to scenario?

15:19:33 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P8 is really me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P8 is really me

15:19:35 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:20:05 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:20:23 <smiles> pgroth: proceed as we have been doing by email to discuss example

Paul Groth: proceed as we have been doing by email to discuss example

15:20:40 <luc> ack tlebo

Luc Moreau: ack tlebo

15:20:46 <pgroth> ack dgarijo

Paul Groth: ack dgarijo

15:20:53 <smiles> dgarijo: proposal to add another example(s) on mailing list, to capture scientific domain

Daniel Garijo: proposal to add another example(s) on mailing list, to capture scientific domain

15:20:54 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

15:20:57 <jorn> zakim, who is noisy?

Jörn Hees: zakim, who is noisy?

15:20:58 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:21:11 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DavidSchaengold (59%), ??P35 (29%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DavidSchaengold (59%), ??P35 (29%)

15:21:17 <tlebo> q?

Timothy Lebo: q?

15:21:42 <jorn> zakim, please mute DavidSchaengold

Jörn Hees: zakim, please mute DavidSchaengold

15:21:42 <Zakim> DavidSchaengold should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: DavidSchaengold should now be muted

15:21:47 <tlebo> q?

Timothy Lebo: q?

15:21:52 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

15:22:08 <pgroth> zakim, ??P12 is pgroth

Paul Groth: zakim, ??P12 is pgroth

15:22:08 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

15:22:27 <tlebo> proposal: create an additional example for scientific domain.

PROPOSED: create an additional example for scientific domain.

15:22:51 <smiles> luc: we agreed last time to start with first example for discussing concepts, and bring other examples when they are found to be needed

Luc Moreau: we agreed last time to start with first example for discussing concepts, and bring other examples when they are found to be needed

15:22:54 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q-

15:23:33 <tlebo> +1 working with the example as is.

Timothy Lebo: +1 working with the example as is.

15:23:36 <smiles> pgroth: we need to move on discussing concepts, but can keep iterating

Paul Groth: we need to move on discussing concepts, but can keep iterating

15:23:58 <smiles> TOPIC: Provenance access and query task force

3. Provenance access and query task force

Summary: The Provenance Access and Query Task Force will start from the incubator group report for developing a draft architecture. We will not design a query language, but will say how existing query languages/models work with the architecture.

15:23:59 <smiles> SUMMARY: The Provenance Access and Query Task Force will start from the incubator group report for developing a draft architecture. We will not design a query language, but will say how existing query languages/models work with the architecture.
15:24:04 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0071.html

Paul Groth: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0071.html

15:24:15 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Access_and_Query_Task_Force

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Access_and_Query_Task_Force

15:24:31 <smiles> pgroth: there has been discussion of architecture on mailing list

Paul Groth: there has been discussion of architecture on mailing list

15:24:31 <smiles> ... any comments on how to get tf started?

... any comments on how to get tf started?

15:24:49 <Zakim> +paulo

Zakim IRC Bot: +paulo

15:24:50 <smiles> olaf: we agreed on a set of objectives for the task force in time for the F2F meeting

Olaf Hartig: we agreed on a set of objectives for the task force in time for the F2F meeting

15:25:20 <smiles> ... a including draft for access and query architecture

... a including draft for access and query architecture

15:25:21 <smiles> PROPOSED: base draft architecture on proposal in XG report at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov/

PROPOSED: base draft architecture on proposal in XG report at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov/

15:25:22 <iker> +1 olaf proposal

Iker Huerga: +1 olaf proposal

15:25:41 <GK> q+, to say I'm not sure how the provenance XG report really works as a foundation

Graham Klyne: q+, to say I'm not sure how the provenance XG report really works as a foundation

15:25:46 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Olaf's proposal

Khalid Belhajjame: +1 for Olaf's proposal

15:26:03 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:26:07 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:26:50 <smiles> GK: not clear from XG report what the problem trying to be solved is

Graham Klyne: not clear from XG report what the problem trying to be solved is

15:26:50 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.509.375.aaee

15:27:12 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:27:18 <smiles> ... will send thoughts to mailing list on this

... will send thoughts to mailing list on this

15:27:26 <paulo> q+

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: q+

15:27:41 <luc> ack satya

Luc Moreau: ack satya

15:27:46 <smiles> satya: agree with Olaf, but in XG report did not discuss query mechanism only access

Satya Sahoo: agree with Olaf, but in XG report did not discuss query mechanism only access

15:27:58 <smiles> ... will we discuss query separately?

... will we discuss query separately?

15:28:21 <smiles> pgroth: olaf's proposal was around access, fit into web architecture

Paul Groth: olaf's proposal was around access, fit into web architecture

15:28:33 <luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:29:57 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:30:15 <smiles> paulo: we have scenario with list of questions which could be posed, but should have queries which motivate problem, and design for answering the questions asked

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: we have scenario with list of questions which could be posed, but should have queries which motivate problem, and design for answering the questions asked

15:30:16 <Zakim> +??P45

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P45

15:30:25 <jorn> zakim, ??P45 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??P45 is me

15:30:25 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:30:34 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample#Provenance_Questions

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample#Provenance_Questions

15:31:18 <smiles> luc: discussions on access task force were good, and feedback on XG report was positive

Luc Moreau: discussions on access task force were good, and feedback on XG report was positive

15:31:31 <smiles> ... in those discussions, we were pointed to POWDER as something to consider

... in those discussions, we were pointed to POWDER as something to consider

15:32:06 <smiles> ... queries are in scope of this WG, but not intent of WG to design a query language for provenance

... queries are in scope of this WG, but not intent of WG to design a query language for provenance

15:32:40 <GK> +1 not designing a query language

Graham Klyne: +1 not designing a query language

15:32:45 <smiles> pgroth: two proposals to proceed: first, use incubator group report section to build on

Paul Groth: two proposals to proceed: first, use incubator group report section to build on

15:32:59 <GK> q+ to say not opposing use of XG doc

Graham Klyne: q+ to say not opposing use of XG doc

15:33:05 <pgroth> ack paulo

Paul Groth: ack paulo

15:33:07 <pgroth> ack luc

Paul Groth: ack luc

15:33:09 <YogeshSimmhan> +1 to olaf proposal to use XG report as starting point

Yogesh Simmhan: +1 to olaf proposal to use XG report as starting point

15:33:16 <Zakim> -Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh

15:33:18 <smiles> ... second, more crisply define the problems we are trying to solve first

... second, more crisply define the problems we are trying to solve first

15:33:42 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:33:44 <smiles> +1

+1

15:33:45 <Zakim> +Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh

15:33:45 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:33:45 <jcheney> +1 for starting point

James Cheney: +1 for starting point

15:33:46 <simoninireland> +1

Simon Dobson: +1

15:33:47 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:33:48 <jorn> +1

Jörn Hees: +1

15:33:49 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:33:50 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:33:50 <ericstephan> +1

Eric Stephan: +1

15:33:51 <DavidSchaengold> +1

david schaengold: +1

15:33:55 <jun> +1 for starting point

Jun Zhao: +1 for starting point

15:33:56 <GK> +1 (taking into account resevrations noted in email)

Graham Klyne: +1 (taking into account resevrations noted in email)

15:34:04 <satya> I also propose that we rename PAQ task force as provenance access task force

Satya Sahoo: I also propose that we rename PAQ task force as provenance access task force

15:34:05 <Edoardo_and_David> +1

Edoardo Pignotti: +1

15:34:09 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:34:11 <dgarijo> also, +1 to not designing a new query language.

Daniel Garijo: also, +1 to not designing a new query language.

15:34:25 <Zakim> -paulo

Zakim IRC Bot: -paulo

15:34:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:34:27 <ericstephan> ericstephan - is ericstephan - btw :-)

Eric Stephan: ericstephan - is ericstephan - btw :-)

15:34:34 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:34:34 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say not opposing use of XG doc

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say not opposing use of XG doc

15:34:38 <GK> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:34:51 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame

Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame

15:35:24 <smiles> khalid: if a query language is outside scope of the WG, we should be clear that we are only discussing access

Khalid Belhajjame: if a query language is outside scope of the WG, we should be clear that we are only discussing access

15:35:26 <smiles> RESOLVED: use incubator report access architecture as starting point for access and query task force F2F draft

RESOLVED: use incubator report access architecture as starting point for access and query task force F2F draft

15:35:30 <GK> q+ to say that identifying mechanisms to use existing QL is OK

Graham Klyne: q+ to say that identifying mechanisms to use existing QL is OK

15:35:37 <luc> It is still the case that we may want to explain how to use, say SPARQL, to query provenance

Luc Moreau: It is still the case that we may want to explain how to use, say SPARQL, to query provenance

15:35:48 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:36:36 <smiles> pgroth: could rename access and query task force to access only, but we also have reference to sparql endpoints etc in charter

Paul Groth: could rename access and query task force to access only, but we also have reference to sparql endpoints etc in charter

15:36:48 <Zakim> +paulo

Zakim IRC Bot: +paulo

15:36:57 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q-

15:36:57 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:37:00 <smiles> satya: not proposing new query language, but we can say how existing languages to fit into architecture

Satya Sahoo: not proposing new query language, but we can say how existing languages to fit into architecture

15:37:36 <smiles> GK: maybe it is in scope how to make use of existing query languages and mechanisms

Graham Klyne: maybe it is in scope how to make use of existing query languages and mechanisms

15:38:12 <smiles> TOPIC: Concepts illustration

4. Concepts illustration

Summary: We will have a Wiki page per concept and use the issue tracker to discuss definitions. Definitions will be informal and grounded with the example.

15:38:13 <smiles> SUMMARY: We will have a Wiki page per concept and use the issue tracker to discuss definitions. Definitions will be informal and grounded with the example.
15:38:31 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0018.html

Paul Groth: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0018.html

15:38:39 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration

15:38:45 <smiles> pgroth: asked people to discuss how example can be used to illustrate concepts from charter

Paul Groth: asked people to discuss how example can be used to illustrate concepts from charter

15:39:28 <paulo> q+

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: q+

15:39:29 <smiles> ... used scenario to propose examples for concepts - not many comments yet - are the concept examples reasonable?

... used scenario to propose examples for concepts - not many comments yet - are the concept examples reasonable?

15:39:39 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:39:45 <pgroth> ack paulo

Paul Groth: ack paulo

15:40:19 <smiles> paulo: maybe limiting that example is so focused on a process

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: maybe limiting that example is so focused on a process

15:42:02 <smiles> ... use of process may blind us to cover all aspects we need

... use of process may blind us to cover all aspects we need

15:42:44 <paulo> q+

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: q+

15:42:48 <smiles> pgroth: we want to define the set of concepts we want to use, need a process for this activity

Paul Groth: we want to define the set of concepts we want to use, need a process for this activity

15:43:34 <smiles> ... (as in a process for the working group, not a process in the example/model)

... (as in a process for the working group, not a process in the example/model)

15:43:44 <luc> paul: explain what an issue is

Paul Groth: explain what an issue is [ Scribe Assist by Luc Moreau ]

15:43:54 <pgroth> What term do we adopt for concept 'xxx' and how do we define it?"

Paul Groth: What term do we adopt for concept 'xxx' and how do we define it?"

15:44:13 <luc> paul, please explain what an issue is

Luc Moreau: paul, please explain what an issue is

15:44:13 <smiles> pgroth: suggest we raise an issue for each concept in the charter of form above

Paul Groth: suggest we raise an issue for each concept in the charter of form above

15:44:30 <ericstephan> q+

Eric Stephan: q+

15:44:33 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/

15:44:39 <Zakim> - +1.509.375.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.509.375.aaee

15:44:45 <smiles> ... an issue is something which can be raised in the tracker for discussion until resolution

... an issue is something which can be raised in the tracker for discussion until resolution

15:44:57 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

15:45:27 <paulo> q+

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: q+

15:45:29 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.509.375.aaff

15:45:37 <smiles> pgroth: we raise issues for the initial set of concepts from charter, and if new concepts people can raise them as issues

Paul Groth: we raise issues for the initial set of concepts from charter, and if new concepts people can raise them as issues

15:45:41 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:45:43 <jorn> zakim, aaff probably is ericstephan

Jörn Hees: zakim, aaff probably is ericstephan

15:45:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaff probably is ericstephan', jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'aaff probably is ericstephan', jorn

15:45:44 <ericstephan> q+ again sorry

Eric Stephan: q+ again sorry

15:45:56 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

15:46:07 <jorn> zakim, ??P14 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??P14 is me

15:46:08 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:46:34 <jcheney> "issue" is just the name for something the tracker tracks...

James Cheney: "issue" is just the name for something the tracker tracks...

15:46:46 <smiles> paulo: consider questions we have to be answered with model, as we may have concepts which are not answering any question

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: consider questions we have to be answered with model, as we may have concepts which are not answering any question

15:46:46 <luc> paulo has got a point, we have a list of queries associated with the example

Luc Moreau: paulo has got a point, we have a list of queries associated with the example

15:47:04 <luc> a "w3c issue" is like a bug in bugzilla

Luc Moreau: a "w3c issue" is like a bug in bugzilla

15:47:35 <jcheney> some of them might be uncontroversial and so "resolved" immediately.

James Cheney: some of them might be uncontroversial and so "resolved" immediately.

15:48:13 <jorn> zakim, aaff is probably ericstephan

Jörn Hees: zakim, aaff is probably ericstephan

15:48:13 <Zakim> +ericstephan; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericstephan; got it

15:48:18 <smiles> luc: paulo is right that we do not want concepts not used in any queries, so we need to show how they are used to answer queries

Luc Moreau: paulo is right that we do not want concepts not used in any queries, so we need to show how they are used to answer queries

15:48:25 <smiles> ... we have a list of queries in the example and need to extend it over time

... we have a list of queries in the example and need to extend it over time

15:48:48 <smiles> PROPOSED: raise issue for discussing each concept definition

PROPOSED: raise issue for discussing each concept definition

15:48:49 <satya> for raising issue?

Satya Sahoo: for raising issue?

15:48:49 <simoninireland> +1

Simon Dobson: +1

15:48:49 <tlebo> +1 using tracker

Timothy Lebo: +1 using tracker

15:48:49 <Zakim> -Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yolanda

15:48:50 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:48:51 <ericstephan> +1

Eric Stephan: +1

15:48:52 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:48:52 <jorn> +1

Jörn Hees: +1

15:48:53 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:48:53 <smiles> +1

+1

15:48:53 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

15:48:54 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:48:54 <DavidSchaengold> +1

david schaengold: +1

15:48:54 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:48:54 <Altintas> +1

Ilkay Altintas: +1

15:48:55 <frew> +1

James Frew: +1

15:48:55 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:48:56 <paulo> q+

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: q+

15:48:57 <Edoardo_and_David> +1

Edoardo Pignotti: +1

15:48:58 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:48:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:49:00 <YogeshSimmhan> +1

Yogesh Simmhan: +1

15:49:00 <jcheney> q+

James Cheney: q+

15:49:58 <smiles> eric: can connection task force use these concepts to identify which groups they may pertain to?

Eric Stephan: can connection task force use these concepts to identify which groups they may pertain to?

15:50:25 <pgroth> ack paulo

Paul Groth: ack paulo

15:50:32 <pgroth> ack eristephan

Paul Groth: ack eristephan

15:50:41 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:50:51 <smiles> jcheney: when using issue tracker, there is a formal process for asking for comments from outside

James Cheney: when using issue tracker, there is a formal process for asking for comments from outside

15:51:20 <smiles> ... guidance says good to have examples to illustrate disagreements

... guidance says good to have examples to illustrate disagreements

15:51:30 <dgarijo> ack ericstephan

Daniel Garijo: ack ericstephan

15:51:31 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#formal-address

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#formal-address

15:51:34 <jcheney> q-

James Cheney: q-

15:52:06 <smiles> RESOLVED: use issue tracking to discuss concept definitions

RESOLVED: use issue tracking to discuss concept definitions

15:52:32 <smiles> pgroth: how to suggest definitions?

Paul Groth: how to suggest definitions?

15:52:33 <tlebo> wiki?

Timothy Lebo: wiki?

15:52:34 <luc> a wiki page per concept?

Luc Moreau: a wiki page per concept?

15:52:44 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:52:47 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:53:03 <Edoardo_and_David> +1 a wiki page per concept

Edoardo Pignotti: +1 a wiki page per concept

15:53:05 <ericstephan> +1 luc's idea

Eric Stephan: +1 luc's idea

15:53:07 <jorn> +1

Jörn Hees: +1

15:53:12 <smiles> pgroth: once we have a wiki page per concept, then what?

Paul Groth: once we have a wiki page per concept, then what?

15:53:13 <satya> +1 for wiki page

Satya Sahoo: +1 for wiki page

15:53:15 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

15:53:16 <luc> so, when we raise an issue, we also create the corresponding wiki page

Luc Moreau: so, when we raise an issue, we also create the corresponding wiki page

15:53:22 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:53:29 <satya> Create a definition for the concept

Satya Sahoo: Create a definition for the concept

15:53:35 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:53:41 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:53:45 <GK> q+ to suggest that someone familiar with W3C support tools should make proposal (on list, with links) then have us throw rocks at it?

Graham Klyne: q+ to suggest that someone familiar with W3C support tools should make proposal (on list, with links) then have us throw rocks at it?

15:53:47 <smiles> tlebo: use wiki to represent current definition, have wiki link as part of the tracker (issue)

Timothy Lebo: use wiki to represent current definition, have wiki link as part of the tracker (issue)

15:53:57 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:53:58 <jorn> there are history links in the wiki, aren't they? so use them in emails?

Jörn Hees: there are history links in the wiki, aren't they? so use them in emails?

15:53:59 <Altintas> +1

Ilkay Altintas: +1

15:54:11 <luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:54:16 <luc> ack again

Luc Moreau: ack again

15:54:18 <luc> ack sorry

Luc Moreau: ack sorry

15:54:20 <smiles> pgroth: how to get first set of definitions?

Paul Groth: how to get first set of definitions?

15:54:21 <satya> from the XG final report?

Satya Sahoo: from the XG final report?

15:54:24 <luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:54:59 <smiles> GK: maybe more productive for someone familiar with W3C tooling put something initial together

Graham Klyne: maybe more productive for someone familiar with W3C tooling put something initial together

15:55:43 <GK> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:55:47 <smiles> luc: proposal of inviting submitting definitions is good, but some definitions may be mutually dependent, so need mechanism to cross-ref definitions

Luc Moreau: proposal of inviting submitting definitions is good, but some definitions may be mutually dependent, so need mechanism to cross-ref definitions

15:55:51 <luc> q-

Luc Moreau: q-

15:55:53 <satya> a note on the wiki page of the concept to cross-reference?

Satya Sahoo: a note on the wiki page of the concept to cross-reference?

15:56:23 <Zakim> -??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P3

15:56:28 <smiles> PROPOSED: idea is everyone allowed to submit own definitions, then merge

PROPOSED: idea is everyone allowed to submit own definitions, then merge

15:56:29 <GK> q+ to suggest suggested definitions should be grounded in example

Graham Klyne: q+ to suggest suggested definitions should be grounded in example

15:56:37 <luc> or is better to put one proposal, which get discussed?

Luc Moreau: or is better to put one proposal, which get discussed?

15:56:44 <tlebo> concept references within a definition can link via wiki link.

Timothy Lebo: concept references within a definition can link via wiki link.

15:56:58 <smiles> GK: in asking people to submit, could ask that grounded in example?

Graham Klyne: in asking people to submit, could ask that grounded in example?

15:57:04 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:57:32 <smiles> pgroth: (agree with GK, add to proposal above)

Paul Groth: (agree with GK, add to proposal above)

15:57:43 <satya> + 1 for proposal 1

Satya Sahoo: + 1 for proposal 1

15:57:51 <smiles> pgroth: alternative proposal to start with one definition, and edit (based on example)

Paul Groth: alternative proposal to start with one definition, and edit (based on example)

15:57:55 <luc> ... or propose alternative definition

Luc Moreau: ... or propose alternative definition

15:57:56 <tlebo> multiple working definitions could be placed onto the same concept's wiki page

Timothy Lebo: multiple working definitions could be placed onto the same concept's wiki page

15:57:57 <GK> q+ point of order: proposals not mutually exclusive?

Graham Klyne: q+ point of order: proposals not mutually exclusive?

15:58:53 <tlebo> what percentage of the working group can edit the wiki?

Timothy Lebo: what percentage of the working group can edit the wiki?

15:58:54 <smiles> GK: just suggesting that whatever process used, ground in example

Graham Klyne: just suggesting that whatever process used, ground in example

15:58:59 <luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:59:25 <jcheney> +q

James Cheney: +q

15:59:25 <GK> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:59:27 <luc> q-

Luc Moreau: q-

15:59:33 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

15:59:36 <smiles> luc: maybe difficult to come up with initial definitions - instead paraphrase something rather than formal definition

Luc Moreau: maybe difficult to come up with initial definitions - instead paraphrase something rather than formal definition

16:00:04 <smiles> jcheney: formal or informal definitions?

James Cheney: formal or informal definitions?

16:00:11 <paulo> q+

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: q+

16:00:16 <zednik> +1 informal

Stephan Zednik: +1 informal

16:00:20 <jcheney> q-

James Cheney: q-

16:00:23 <jorn> +1 for informal first...

Jörn Hees: +1 for informal first...

16:00:25 <Zakim> -??P42

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P42

16:00:32 <dgarijo> +1 to informal

Daniel Garijo: +1 to informal

16:00:33 <luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:00:34 <tlebo> re: formality, have both rdfs/owl statements and inform descriptions on same wiki page for the concept?

Carl Reed: formality, have both rdfs/owl statements and inform descriptions on same wiki page for the concept? [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

16:00:52 <smiles> paulo: agree on distinction between informal and formal definitions (are informal definitions actually definitions?)

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: agree on distinction between informal and formal definitions (are informal definitions actually definitions?)

16:01:23 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

16:01:28 <smiles> luc: half of wg did not belong to incubator, we are first trying to build a shared vocabulary

Luc Moreau: half of wg did not belong to incubator, we are first trying to build a shared vocabulary

16:01:36 <GK> +1 to building shared vocabulary

Graham Klyne: +1 to building shared vocabulary

16:01:53 <Zakim> +??P62

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P62

16:02:00 <zednik> +1 to building shared vocabularly

Stephan Zednik: +1 to building shared vocabularly

16:02:06 <jorn> Zakim, ??p62 is me

Jörn Hees: Zakim, ??p62 is me

16:02:06 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

16:02:06 <smiles> ... starting with a formal definition is not helpful, informal definition using paraphrasing, examples, graphical notation is better

... starting with a formal definition is not helpful, informal definition using paraphrasing, examples, graphical notation is better

16:02:19 <olaf> +1 for proposal 1 with informal definitions

Olaf Hartig: +1 for proposal 1 with informal definitions

16:02:28 <jun> + informal

Jun Zhao: + informal

16:02:30 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

16:02:30 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

16:02:31 <jorn> +1

Jörn Hees: +1

16:02:31 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

16:02:31 <tlebo> +1 formal +1 informal

Timothy Lebo: +1 formal +1 informal

16:02:33 <ericstephan> +1

Eric Stephan: +1

16:02:33 <frew> +1

James Frew: +1

16:02:34 <satya> +1 for informal

Satya Sahoo: +1 for informal

16:02:35 <Edoardo_and_David> +1

Edoardo Pignotti: +1

16:02:36 <pgroth> proposal  for informal to start

Paul Groth: proposal for informal to start

16:02:38 <smiles> pgroth: informal definitions to start?

Paul Groth: informal definitions to start?

16:02:39 <smiles> +1

+1

16:02:41 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

16:02:43 <paolo> +1 informal

Paolo Missier: +1 informal

16:02:44 <dgarijo> +1 informal

Daniel Garijo: +1 informal

16:02:44 <DavidSchaengold> +1 for informal

david schaengold: +1 for informal

16:02:45 <GK> +1 start informal, build shared vocab

Graham Klyne: +1 start informal, build shared vocab

16:02:46 <CarlOGC> +1

Carl Reed: +1

16:02:48 <YogeshSimmhan> +1

Yogesh Simmhan: +1

16:02:48 <Altintas> +1

Ilkay Altintas: +1

16:02:50 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

16:02:54 <Altintas> or informal

Ilkay Altintas: or informal

16:03:28 <Zakim> -frew

Zakim IRC Bot: -frew

16:03:31 <smiles> RESOLVED: start with informal definitions, grounded with example

RESOLVED: start with informal definitions, grounded with example

16:03:32 <smiles> pgroth: will set up web pages for concepts, issues for defining concepts

Paul Groth: will set up web pages for concepts, issues for defining concepts

16:03:32 <Zakim> -jun

Zakim IRC Bot: -jun

16:03:33 <smiles> ACTION: Paul to set up web pages for concepts, issues for defining concepts

ACTION: Paul to set up web pages for concepts, issues for defining concepts

16:03:34 <Zakim> -SatyaSahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -SatyaSahoo

16:03:35 <Zakim> -ericstephan

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericstephan

16:03:36 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.276.aaaa

16:03:39 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

16:03:41 <Zakim> -DavidSchaengold

Zakim IRC Bot: -DavidSchaengold

16:03:43 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

16:03:45 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:03:47 <Zakim> - +1.858.210.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.858.210.aabb

16:03:49 <Zakim> -olaf

Zakim IRC Bot: -olaf

16:03:51 <Zakim> -Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh

16:03:53 <Zakim> -paolo_

Zakim IRC Bot: -paolo_

16:03:55 <Zakim> -zednik

Zakim IRC Bot: -zednik

16:03:57 <Zakim> -VinhNguyen

Zakim IRC Bot: -VinhNguyen

16:04:01 <Zakim> -luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -luc

16:04:01 <smiles> rrsagent, set log public

rrsagent, set log public

16:04:03 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

16:04:07 <Zakim> -paulo

Zakim IRC Bot: -paulo

16:04:09 <Zakim> -??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P35

16:04:11 <smiles> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html smiles

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html smiles

16:04:15 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:04:17 <Zakim> -??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P4

16:04:21 <Zakim> -??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17

16:04:27 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

16:04:28 <smiles> trackbot, end telcon

trackbot, end telcon

16:04:28 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:04:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, DavidSchaengold, +1.858.210.aabb, jorn, tlebo, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, SatyaSahoo, paolo_, olaf,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, DavidSchaengold, +1.858.210.aabb, jorn, tlebo, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, SatyaSahoo, paolo_, olaf,

16:04:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:04:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:04:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:04:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items

16:04:32 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, Yogesh, jun, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, zednik, Yolanda, SamCoppens, frew, GK, VinhNguyen, paulo, +1.509.375.aaee, +1.509.375.aaff, ericstephan

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.518.633.aadd, Yogesh, jun, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, zednik, Yolanda, SamCoppens, frew, GK, VinhNguyen, paulo, +1.509.375.aaee, +1.509.375.aaff, ericstephan



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