Meeting Record

OWL WG F2F1 (Manchester, England)

Minutes of 06 December 2007

Seen

Achille Fokoue, Alan Ruttenberg, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Bijan Parsia, Boris Motik, Deborah McGuinness, Elisa Kendall, Evan Wallace, Giorgos Stoilos, Ian Horrocks, Ivan Herman, James Hendler, Jeremy Carroll, Joanne Luciano, Markus Krötzsch, Michael Smith, Pascal Hitzler, Peter Patel-Schneider, Ratnesh Sahay, Rinke Hoekstra, Sandro Hawke, Uli Sattler, Unknown Meeting_Room, Unknown cgi-irc, Unknown g-stoilos, Unknown jim, Unknown jjc, Unknown seanb, Vipul Kashyap, Vit Novacek, Zhe Wu

Scribe

Peter Patel-Schneider, Jeremy Carroll, Pascal Hitzler, Giorgos Stoilos

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

Our publications will refer to this work as "OWL 1.1" (not OWL 2.0, etc) link
Publish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF documents (as on the wiki right now) as First Public Working Drafts link

Topics

Welcome, Logistics, Introductions
Overview of language features and motivation
OWL 1.0 Implementation Experience
Introductions
History (including OWLED)
Imports
User Facing Documents
test cases

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09:16:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-owl-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-owl-irc ←

09:16:25 <pfps> ScribeNick: pfps

(Scribe set to Peter Patel-Schneider)

09:17:07 <pfps> Meeting: OWL WG F2F1 (Manchester, England)

09:17:29 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←

09:17:29 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-owl-irc#T09-17-29

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-owl-irc#T09-17-29 ←

09:17:34 <sandro> rrsagent, make record public

Sandro Hawke: rrsagent, make record public ←

09:17:51 <sandro> ==Going Around the Room ==

Sandro Hawke: ==Going Around the Room == ←

09:17:59 <sandro> Peter Haase

Sandro Hawke: Peter Haase ←

09:18:02 <pfps> Topic: Welcome, Logistics, Introductions

1. Welcome, Logistics, Introductions

09:18:13 <sandro> Boris Motik

Sandro Hawke: Boris Motik ←

09:18:15 <bmotik> I'm boris motik, University of Oxford

Boris Motik: I'm boris motik, University of Oxford ←

09:18:27 <sandro> Bernardo Cuenca Grau

Sandro Hawke: Bernardo Cuenca Grau ←

09:18:32 <jjc> SteveBattle

Scribe problem: the name 'jjc' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jjc: SteveBattle ←

09:18:37 <sandro> Steve Battle

Sandro Hawke: Steve Battle ←

09:18:47 <sandro> Jeremy Carroll

Sandro Hawke: Jeremy Carroll ←

09:18:57 <sandro> Peter Patel-Schneider

Sandro Hawke: Peter Patel-Schneider ←

09:19:35 <sandro> Uli Sattler

Sandro Hawke: Uli Sattler ←

09:20:08 <pfps> Carsten Lutz, Dresden

Carsten Lutz, Dresden ←

09:20:40 <pfps> Thomas Schneider

Thomas Schneider ←

09:20:53 <sandro> Michael Smith

Sandro Hawke: Michael Smith ←

09:20:59 <sandro> Bijan Parsia

Sandro Hawke: Bijan Parsia ←

09:21:10 <sandro> (Thomas and Carsten are guests today)

Sandro Hawke: (Thomas and Carsten are guests today) ←

09:21:37 <pfps> Sebastian Brandt

Sebastian Brandt ←

09:21:48 <sandro> (Sebastian also a guest today)

Sandro Hawke: (Sebastian also a guest today) ←

09:22:14 <pfps> Matthew Horridge

Matthew Horridge ←

09:22:28 <pfps> (Matthew is also a guest)

(Matthew is also a guest) ←

09:23:10 <sandro> Giorgos Stoilos

Sandro Hawke: Giorgos Stoilos ←

09:23:23 <sandro> Pascal Hitzler

Sandro Hawke: Pascal Hitzler ←

09:23:32 <sandro> Markus Krötzsch

Sandro Hawke: Markus Krötzsch ←

09:23:43 <sandro> (Markus is the primary person from Karsruhe)

Sandro Hawke: (Markus is the primary person from Karsruhe) ←

09:23:56 <sandro> Vit Novacek

Sandro Hawke: Vit Novacek ←

09:24:06 <sandro> Ivan Herman

Sandro Hawke: Ivan Herman ←

09:24:15 <sandro> Sandro Hawke

Sandro Hawke: Sandro Hawke ←

09:24:24 <sandro> Deborah McGuinness

Sandro Hawke: Deborah McGuinness ←

09:24:31 <sandro> Evan Wallace

Sandro Hawke: Evan Wallace ←

09:24:46 <sandro> Rinke Hoekstra

Sandro Hawke: Rinke Hoekstra ←

09:25:08 <pfps> Sean Bechhofer (guest from Manchester)

Sean Bechhofer (guest from Manchester) ←

09:25:15 <sandro> Sean Bechhofer (guest)

Sandro Hawke: Sean Bechhofer (guest) ←

09:25:18 <pfps> Robert Stevens (guest from Manchester)

Robert Stevens (guest from Manchester) ←

09:25:44 <sandro> Ian Horrocks

Sandro Hawke: Ian Horrocks ←

09:25:47 <pfps> Ian Horrocks (Uniersity of Manchester [sic])

Ian Horrocks (University of Manchester [sic]) ←

09:26:25 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←

09:26:25 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-owl-irc#T09-26-25

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-owl-irc#T09-26-25 ←

09:26:43 <pfps> s/Uniersity/University/

09:27:20 <pfps> Topic: Overview of language features and motivation

2. Overview of language features and motivation

09:27:27 <pfps> Speaker:  Bijan Parsia

Scribe problem: the name 'Speaker' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Speaker: Bijan Parsia ←

09:28:13 <pfps> Topic: OWL 1.0 Implementation Experience

3. OWL 1.0 Implementation Experience

09:28:26 <pfps> Speaker: Matthew Horridge

Unknown Speaker: Matthew Horridge ←

09:30:30 <pfps> Matthew: implementing OWL DL experience

Scribe problem: the name 'Matthew' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Matthew: implementing OWL DL experience ←

09:30:44 <pfps> Matthew: problems - RDF and imports

Unknown Matthew: problems - RDF and imports ←

09:31:09 <pfps> Matthew: internal API is known as the OWL API - based on OWL abstract syntax

Unknown Matthew: internal API is known as the OWL API - based on OWL abstract syntax ←

09:31:37 <pfps> Matthew: use of OWL API means that different concrete syntaxes can be used

Unknown Matthew: use of OWL API means that different concrete syntaxes can be used ←

09:32:02 <pfps> Matthew: problems with abstract syntax - distinguishing between, e.g., data and object properties

Unknown Matthew: problems with abstract syntax - distinguishing between, e.g., data and object properties ←

09:32:41 <pfps> Matthew: effort required - RDF parser is vast majority of effort, everything else is much easier

Unknown Matthew: effort required - RDF parser is vast majority of effort, everything else is much easier ←

09:33:08 <pfps> Matthew: similar situation for OWL 1.1 API

Unknown Matthew: similar situation for OWL 1.1 API ←

09:33:17 <pfps> Ivan: what is the "RDF parser"

Ivan Herman: what is the "RDF parser" ←

09:33:44 <pfps> Matthew: RDF parser is just triples to internal API, not dealing with RDF/XML

Unknown Matthew: RDF parser is just triples to internal API, not dealing with RDF/XML ←

09:33:59 <pfps> Matthew: RDF mapping - want to be fast, small, and streaming

Unknown Matthew: RDF mapping - want to be fast, small, and streaming ←

09:34:24 <pfps> Matthew: streaming was too hard, so the parser was not streaming

Unknown Matthew: streaming was too hard, so the parser was not streaming ←

09:34:31 <cgi-irc> hello!

Scribe problem: the name 'cgi-irc' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown cgi-irc: hello! ←

09:34:45 <pfps> Matthew: in new parser - parser is streaming, but still takes resources

Unknown Matthew: in new parser - parser is streaming, but still takes resources ←

09:35:12 <pfps> Matthew: OWL XML is very verbose - causes problems

Unknown Matthew: OWL XML is very verbose - causes problems ←

09:35:16 <Joanne> sorry to interrupt - how do I get audio?

Joanne Luciano: sorry to interrupt - how do I get audio? ←

09:35:30 <pfps> Jeremy: what is the size increase

Jeremy Carroll: what is the size increase ←

09:35:42 <pfps> Matthew: not sure - 3 to 5 times

Unknown Matthew: not sure - 3 to 5 times ←

09:36:10 <pfps> Matthew: triples to OWL API was problematic - inversing a non-deterministic mapping

Unknown Matthew: triples to OWL API was problematic - inversing a non-deterministic mapping ←

09:36:28 <pfps> Matthew: OWL 1.1 thus has two mappings

Unknown Matthew: OWL 1.1 thus has two mappings ←

09:36:45 <pfps> Matthew: e.g., subclass (see slides)

Unknown Matthew: e.g., subclass (see slides) ←

09:37:28 <pfps> Matthew: other problem - n-ary constructs go to n or n*n triples

Unknown Matthew: other problem - n-ary constructs go to n or n*n triples ←

09:38:42 <pfps> Matthew: failures of round tripping cause problems

Unknown Matthew: failures of round tripping cause problems ←

09:39:40 <pfps> Matthew: missing type triples make ontologies officially non-parsable

Unknown Matthew: missing type triples make ontologies officially non-parsable ←

09:41:22 <pfps> Matthew: in many cases there is a fix, but sometimes the fix is not local (may require looking at imported ontologies)

Unknown Matthew: in many cases there is a fix, but sometimes the fix is not local (may require looking at imported ontologies) ←

09:42:13 <Joanne> Sandro - When I dial into Zakim it responds that the conference is restricted.

Joanne Luciano: Sandro - When I dial into Zakim it responds that the conference is restricted. ←

09:43:40 <pfps> Jeremy: declaration is good style - RDF graphs are unordered - so declarations can be non-local

Jeremy Carroll: declaration is good style - RDF graphs are unordered - so declarations can be non-local ←

09:44:20 <pfps> Michael: searching for declarations require two passes - which can be expensive

Scribe problem: the name 'Michael' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Michael Smith Michael Sintek . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Michael: searching for declarations require two passes - which can be expensive ←

09:44:21 <sandro> Joanne, alas the hosts were not expecting anyone to call in at this hour, so the speaker phone is not set up yet.   We'll try it during the break, in about 60 minutes from now.

Sandro Hawke: Joanne, alas the hosts were not expecting anyone to call in at this hour, so the speaker phone is not set up yet. We'll try it during the break, in about 60 minutes from now. ←

09:45:26 <pfps> Alan: why not do typing "as seen"

Alan Ruttenberg: why not do typing "as seen" ←

09:45:48 <pfps> Boris: this requires deferring processing, and is hard

Boris Motik: this requires deferring processing, and is hard ←

09:45:59 <Joanne> OK, thanks. When I couldn't make the flight last night I vowed to get up early.

Joanne Luciano: OK, thanks. When I couldn't make the flight last night I vowed to get up early. ←

09:47:33 <pfps> Bijan: in any case, there is a lot of extra work to make the RDF parsing go through

Bijan Parsia: in any case, there is a lot of extra work to make the RDF parsing go through ←

09:47:41 <sandro> Joanne, sorry to not be able to reward that worthy vow!   (sorry to hear about the flight)

Sandro Hawke: Joanne, sorry to not be able to reward that worthy vow! (sorry to hear about the flight) ←

09:47:58 <pfps> Jeremy: there are implementations that do good jobs

Jeremy Carroll: there are implementations that do good jobs ←

09:48:23 <pfps> Bijan: no - there are bugs

Bijan Parsia: no - there are bugs ←

09:49:16 <pfps> Jeremy: but you do get benefits - use of RDF

Jeremy Carroll: but you do get benefits - use of RDF ←

09:49:34 <pfps> Bijan: but there is a cost

Bijan Parsia: but there is a cost ←

09:49:49 <pfps> Jeremy: multiple vocab is an attempt to fix this?

Jeremy Carroll: multiple vocab is an attempt to fix this? ←

09:49:51 <pfps> Bijan: yes

Bijan Parsia: yes ←

09:50:24 <Jeremy> Streaming OWL DL; ESWC 2004; JJ Carroll; LNCS 2004, ISSU 3053, pages 198-212

Jeremy Carroll: Streaming OWL DL; ESWC 2004; JJ Carroll; LNCS 2004, ISSU 3053, pages 198-212 ←

09:50:35 <pfps> Alan: compatibility means that there is no way out

Alan Ruttenberg: compatibility means that there is no way out ←

09:50:37 <Jeremy> describes a streaming approach to OWL DL species validation

Jeremy Carroll: describes a streaming approach to OWL DL species validation ←

09:50:43 <Jeremy> (but its hard)

Jeremy Carroll: (but its hard) ←

09:51:22 <pfps> Ian: if we make a better way, then the old versions will die out (eventually)

Ian Horrocks: if we make a better way, then the old versions will die out (eventually) ←

09:51:47 <pfps> Matthew: imports issues

Unknown Matthew: imports issues ←

09:51:57 <Joanne> Sandro... well, at least I can read Peter's scribing, which is very very good.

Joanne Luciano: Sandro... well, at least I can read Peter's scribing, which is very very good. ←

09:52:18 <pfps> Matthew: if //...foo.... imports //...bar... what does it mean?

Unknown Matthew: if //...foo.... imports //...bar... what does it mean? ←

09:52:30 <pfps> Matthew: name of an ontology or a location of an ontology

Unknown Matthew: name of an ontology or a location of an ontology ←

09:52:44 <pfps> Matthew: what if the name and the location don't match

Unknown Matthew: what if the name and the location don't match ←

09:53:49 <pfps> Matthew: imports on OWL DL is controlled by OWL S&AS 3.4

Unknown Matthew: imports on OWL DL is controlled by OWL S&AS 3.4 ←

09:54:09 <pfps> Matthew: OWL reference says imports is by location

Unknown Matthew: OWL reference says imports is by location ←

09:54:38 <pfps> Matthew: OWL guide says something confusing

Unknown Matthew: OWL guide says something confusing ←

09:55:25 <pfps> Matthew: want some direct and normative statement

Unknown Matthew: want some direct and normative statement ←

09:56:03 <Jeremy> section 5 OWL S&AS:

Jeremy Carroll: section 5 OWL S&AS: ←

09:56:05 <Jeremy> Definition: Let T be the mapping from the abstract syntax to RDF graphs from Section 4.1. Let O be a collection of OWL DL ontologies and axioms and facts in abstract syntax form. O is said to be imports closed iff for any URI, u, in an imports directive in any ontology in O the RDF parsing of the document accessible on the Web at u results in T(K), where K is the ontology in O with name u.

Scribe problem: the name 'Definition' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Definition: Let T be the mapping from the abstract syntax to RDF graphs from Section 4.1. Let O be a collection of OWL DL ontologies and axioms and facts in abstract syntax form. O is said to be imports closed iff for any URI, u, in an imports directive in any ontology in O the RDF parsing of the document accessible on the Web at u results in T(K), where K is the ontology in O with name u. [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

09:56:14 <pfps> Matthew: solution was by name (essentially)

Unknown Matthew: solution was by name (essentially) ←

09:56:28 <pfps> Matthew: what is the name of an ontology?

Unknown Matthew: what is the name of an ontology? ←

09:56:47 <Jeremy> (that definition is clear)

Jeremy Carroll: (that definition is clear) ←

09:56:48 <pfps> Matthew: guide is confusing

Unknown Matthew: guide is confusing ←

09:57:42 <pfps> Matthew: test cases for OWL 1.0 were very useful - we need them for 1.1

Unknown Matthew: test cases for OWL 1.0 were very useful - we need them for 1.1 ←

09:57:55 <pfps> Matthew: OWL 1.1 SS diagrams were useful

Unknown Matthew: OWL 1.1 SS diagrams were useful ←

09:58:44 <pfps> jeremy: we need some time to talk about testing

Jeremy Carroll: we need some time to talk about testing ←

09:59:02 <pfps> Bijan: yes - infrastructure is needed

Bijan Parsia: yes - infrastructure is needed ←

09:59:12 <pfps> Jeremy: probably only need a short amount of time

Jeremy Carroll: probably only need a short amount of time ←

09:59:50 <pfps> Topic: Introductions

4. Introductions

10:00:06 <pfps> Alan Rector (guest from Manchester)

Alan Rector (guest from Manchester) ←

10:01:44 <ivan> Ratnesh Sahay (DERI)

Ivan Herman: Ratnesh Sahay (DERI) ←

10:01:45 <pfps> Ratnesh Sahay (DERI Galway)

Ratnesh Sahay (DERI Galway) ←

10:02:04 <pfps> Alan Ruttenberg

Alan Ruttenberg ←

10:02:27 <pfps> Topic: History (including OWLED)

5. History (including OWLED)

10:02:32 <pfps> Speaker: Bijan Parsia

Unknown Speaker: Bijan Parsia ←

10:04:14 <pfps> Bijan: OWLED - started in 2005 to let people interested in OWL design and use together

Bijan Parsia: OWLED - started in 2005 to let people interested in OWL design and use together ←

10:04:51 <pfps> Bijan: there was about 1.5 years of experiece in OWL - there were complaints (particularly QCRs and datatypes)

Bijan Parsia: there was about 1.5 years of experiece in OWL - there were complaints (particularly QCRs and datatypes) ←

10:06:32 <pfps> Bijan: idea for a "bug fix" update to OWL - things that are relatively easy and wanted

Bijan Parsia: idea for a "bug fix" update to OWL - things that are relatively easy and wanted ←

10:06:54 <pfps> Bijan: particularly wanted by users

Bijan Parsia: particularly wanted by users ←

10:07:52 <pfps> Bijan: workshop was (largely) to discover what this new version would be

Bijan Parsia: workshop was (largely) to discover what this new version would be ←

10:09:19 <pfps> Bijan: workshop was adjacent to ISWC 2005 - about 60 participants

Bijan Parsia: workshop was adjacent to ISWC 2005 - about 60 participants ←

10:10:21 <Michael_Smith> mailing list archives for initial owled community http://lists.mindswap.org/pipermail/owl/

Michael Smith: mailing list archives for initial owled community http://lists.mindswap.org/pipermail/owl/ ←

10:10:25 <pfps> Bijan: initial design of OWL 1.1 came out of the workshop

Bijan Parsia: initial design of OWL 1.1 came out of the workshop ←

10:11:11 <Michael_Smith> first msg: http://lists.mindswap.org/pipermail/owl/2005-November/000001.html

Michael Smith: workshop design summary: http://lists.mindswap.org/pipermail/owl/2005-November/000001.html ←

10:11:46 <pfps> s/first msg/workshop design summary/

10:12:02 <pfps> Bijan: desiderata for changes:

Bijan Parsia: desiderata for changes: ←

10:12:12 <pfps> Bijan: 1/ requested by major users

Bijan Parsia: 1/ requested by major users ←

10:12:21 <pfps> Bijan: 2/ have effective reasoning methods

Bijan Parsia: 2/ have effective reasoning methods ←

10:12:38 <pfps> Bijan: 3/ will be implemented

Bijan Parsia: 3/ will be implemented ←

10:13:27 <pfps> Bijan: (alternatively commitment from users, well understood, committment from implementers)

Bijan Parsia: (alternatively commitment from users, well understood, committment from implementers) ←

10:16:08 <pfps> Bijan: other goals: quiet whining, promote apps, improve spec, move forward, path for extensions, reduce species confusion (particularly DL/Lite)

Bijan Parsia: other goals: quiet whining, promote apps, improve spec, move forward, path for extensions, reduce species confusion (particularly DL/Lite) ←

10:16:48 <pfps> Bijan: example - move OWL-S to OWL DL

Bijan Parsia: example - move OWL-S to OWL DL ←

10:17:54 <pfps> Bijan: tool feature - coercion to OWL DL in Pellet

Bijan Parsia: tool feature - coercion to OWL DL in Pellet ←

10:18:07 <pfps> Jeremy: tools *should* do this

Jeremy Carroll: tools *should* do this ←

10:19:08 <pfps> Bijan: *mostly* get the right thing

Bijan Parsia: *mostly* get the right thing ←

10:19:44 <pfps> Bijan: there are still things that people want to do - e.g., lists

Bijan Parsia: there are still things that people want to do - e.g., lists ←

10:20:33 <sandro> Bijan: I implemented shadow lists -- RDF Lists with a parallel vocabulary, just a different namespace.  Pellet can do this silently.

Bijan Parsia: I implemented shadow lists -- RDF Lists with a parallel vocabulary, just a different namespace. Pellet can do this silently. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

10:20:49 <pfps> Jeremy: can rdf:list be fixed?

Jeremy Carroll: can rdf:list be fixed? ←

10:21:16 <pfps> Bijan: issues of modelling lists (eg, breaking them) affecting syntax

Bijan Parsia: issues of modelling lists (eg, breaking them) affecting syntax ←

10:22:09 <pfps> Alan: are lists necessary?

Alan Ruttenberg: are lists necessary? ←

10:22:18 <pfps> Bijan: yes

Bijan Parsia: yes ←

10:22:25 <sandro> Peter: List are only in RDF because OWL-WG demanded them.

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: List are only in RDF because OWL-WG demanded them. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

10:22:35 <sandro> Peter: We needed them for the OWL syntax

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: We needed them for the OWL syntax [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

10:23:28 <pfps> Deborah: consensus on what do to?

Deborah McGuinness: consensus on what do to? ←

10:23:50 <pfps> Bijan: no, just consensus on desiderata

Bijan Parsia: no, just consensus on desiderata ←

10:24:24 <pfps> Bijan: OWL 1.1 design is driven by the three main desiderata

Bijan Parsia: OWL 1.1 design is driven by the three main desiderata ←

10:24:56 <pfps> Carsten: are all three needed?

Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Carsten: are all three needed? ←

10:25:12 <pfps> Bijan: not in all cases, but in most cases

Bijan Parsia: not in all cases, but in most cases ←

10:25:43 <pfps> jeremy: some groups want stability

Jeremy Carroll: some groups want stability ←

10:26:37 <pfps> Bijan: main desiderata do lean towards stability

Bijan Parsia: main desiderata do lean towards stability ←

10:27:10 <pfps> Ivan: there is still a long process to use OWL, so change is bad

Ivan Herman: there is still a long process to use OWL, so change is bad ←

10:27:41 <pfps> Jeremy: HP didn't participate in OWLED due to financial desires

Jeremy Carroll: HP didn't participate in OWLED due to financial desires ←

10:28:24 <pfps> AlanRec: missing features in OWL have hindered uptake

Scribe problem: the name 'AlanRec' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown AlanRec: missing features in OWL have hindered uptake ←

10:28:37 <pfps> Bijan: currently missing feature is keys

Bijan Parsia: currently missing feature is keys ←

10:30:10 <pfps> Ivan: different markets - some want more features, some want no change

Ivan Herman: different markets - some want more features, some want no change ←

10:30:15 <pfps> Pfps: why?

Peter Patel-Schneider: why? ←

10:30:44 <pfps> Bijan: why should people who are only taking taking part of OWL care about OWL being extended?

Bijan Parsia: why should people who are only taking taking part of OWL care about OWL being extended? ←

10:31:05 <sandro> Sandro: This is "OWL Pixie Dust".    People want some of the OWL Magic, without really knowing what OWL is or does for them......

Sandro Hawke: This is "OWL Pixie Dust". People want some of the OWL Magic, without really knowing what OWL is or does for them...... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

10:31:38 <pfps> AlanRec: standards all change so why is new OWL a problem?

Unknown AlanRec: standards all change so why is new OWL a problem? ←

10:31:57 <Joanne> they might care if backwards compatability would break

Joanne Luciano: they might care if backwards compatability would break ←

10:32:03 <pfps> AlanRec: there are issues with backward compatibility

Unknown AlanRec: there are issues with backward compatibility ←

10:32:30 <sandro> AlanRec: Standards grow, with backward compatibility.   And sometimes there are mistakes that need to be fixed.

Unknown AlanRec: Standards grow, with backward compatibility. And sometimes there are mistakes that need to be fixed. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

10:32:39 <pfps> Ian: maintenance is needed

Ian Horrocks: maintenance is needed ←

10:33:31 <pfps> Deborah: users want transition path and backwards compatibility

Deborah McGuinness: users want transition path and backwards compatibility ←

10:33:33 <Joanne> and fixing mistakes or updating costs.

Joanne Luciano: and fixing mistakes or updating costs. ←

10:34:01 <Joanne> updating has costs associated with it is what I meant to say

Joanne Luciano: updating has costs associated with it is what I meant to say ←

10:34:38 <pfps> Ivan: we need to take care of stability concerns

Ivan Herman: we need to take care of stability concerns ←

10:35:53 <pfps> Bijan: model of development - do lots of work outside W3C, then quick recommendation, repeat roughly yearly

Bijan Parsia: model of development - do lots of work outside W3C, then quick recommendation, repeat roughly yearly ←

10:36:24 <pfps> Ivan: stability - vague uneasiness (mostly)

Ivan Herman: stability - vague uneasiness (mostly) ←

10:37:04 <pfps> Alan: what can we do to help?

Alan Ruttenberg: what can we do to help? ←

10:37:11 <pfps> Ivan; nothing, really

Ivan; nothing, really ←

10:37:54 <pfps> Sandro: if the perception is that OWL 1.0 is broken then that is bad

Sandro Hawke: if the perception is that OWL 1.0 is broken then that is even worse than the perception that things are unstable because we're working on 1.1 ←

10:38:07 <Jeremy_> Bijan quoted DannyAyers "Don't hurt the triples"

Jeremy Carroll: Bijan quoted DannyAyers "Don't hurt the triples" ←

10:38:12 <pfps> AlanRec: for me OWL 1.0 is not usable - so I need OWL 1.1

Unknown AlanRec: for me OWL 1.0 is not usable - so I need OWL 1.1 ←

10:38:43 <pfps> Bijan: look for people who have real blockage and try to help them

Bijan Parsia: look for people who have real blockage and try to help them ←

10:39:35 <pfps> Bijan; OWLED attendance and submissions have been growing

Bijan; OWLED attendance and submissions have been growing ←

10:39:35 <sandro> s/that is bad/that is even worse than the perception that things are unstable because we're working on 1.1/

10:40:06 <pfps> Bijan: many participants felt that OWLED gave them a voice

Bijan Parsia: many participants felt that OWLED gave them a voice ←

10:41:27 <pfps> Bijan: OWLED experience has been positive

Bijan Parsia: OWLED experience has been positive ←

10:43:37 <pfps> Bijan: testimonial from Kent Spackman (SNOMED person)

Bijan Parsia: testimonial from Kent Spackman (SNOMED person) ←

10:45:20 <sandro> adjourn for coffee

Sandro Hawke: adjourn for coffee ←

10:52:03 <Joanne> sandro - will you be hooking up audio?

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Joanne Luciano: sandro - will you be hooking up audio? ←

11:06:35 <sandro> Joanne, I'm trying to nudge the local host folks to do it.    hopefully soon.

(No events recorded for 14 minutes)

Sandro Hawke: Joanne, I'm trying to nudge the local host folks to do it. hopefully soon. ←

11:06:39 <sandro> (we're in break now)

Sandro Hawke: (we're in break now) ←

11:11:00 <Joanne> - I took a break too.. breakfast. thanks for looking into it.

Joanne Luciano: - I took a break too.. breakfast. thanks for looking into it. ←

11:11:10 <Joanne> hi Uli!

Joanne Luciano: hi Uli! ←

11:11:40 <Uli> Hi Joanne !

Uli Sattler: Hi Joanne ! ←

11:14:44 <Joanne> I'm good. Taking advantage of the break to make a cup of tea.

Joanne Luciano: I'm good. Taking advantage of the break to make a cup of tea. ←

11:16:02 <Joanne> I'm working on an influenza ontology at MITRE and one on Virulence Factors

Joanne Luciano: I'm working on an influenza ontology at MITRE and one on Virulence Factors ←

11:16:12 <Joanne> How are you?

Joanne Luciano: How are you? ←

11:16:45 <sandro> Joanne, I'm sorry, it turns out the local speaker phone is not available until after lunch.    :-(    We should have it this afternoon and all day tomorrow.

Sandro Hawke: Joanne, I'm sorry, it turns out the local speaker phone is not available until after lunch. :-( We should have it this afternoon and all day tomorrow. ←

11:17:35 <Joanne> OK, thanks for looking into it.

Joanne Luciano: OK, thanks for looking into it. ←

11:18:19 <sandro> ScribeNick: Jeremy

(Scribe set to Jeremy Carroll)

11:18:21 <Joanne> Sandro, are others dialing in? I saw others listed as remote participants

Joanne Luciano: Sandro, are others dialing in? I saw others listed as remote participants ←

11:18:32 <Joanne> are you starting up again?

Joanne Luciano: are you starting up again? ←

11:18:34 <sandro> Not yet, Joanne.

Sandro Hawke: Not yet, Joanne. ←

11:18:34 <Jeremy> Boris presents slides - anyone got URI?

Boris presents slides - anyone got URI? ←

11:18:37 <sandro> We starting up again.

Sandro Hawke: We starting up again. ←

11:18:59 <Jeremy> 1) extend expressivity

1) extend expressivity ←

11:18:59 <Joanne> Thanks. Are there slides I can access somewhere (URI)?

Joanne Luciano: Thanks. Are there slides I can access somewhere (URI)? ←

11:19:56 <sandro> Joanne, we're getting the slides sent out.

Sandro Hawke: Joanne, we're getting the slides sent out. ←

11:19:58 <Jeremy> 2) Bring spec closer to tools

2) Bring spec closer to tools ←

11:20:20 <alanr> hi Joanne

Alan Ruttenberg: hi Joanne ←

11:20:52 <Uli> Peihong Ke has joined as a guest/observer

Uli Sattler: Peihong Ke has joined as a guest/observer ←

11:21:01 <Jeremy> some features of OWL 1.0 which have not been implemented correctly

some features of OWL 1.0 which have not been implemented correctly ←

11:21:15 <Jeremy> 3) make spec cleaner and clearer

3) make spec cleaner and clearer ←

11:21:52 <Joanne> Hi Alan!  Is there a way to listen to the talks over skype? Are there slides anywhere so I can follow along with more than the scribe?

Joanne Luciano: Hi Alan! Is there a way to listen to the talks over skype? Are there slides anywhere so I can follow along with more than the scribe? ←

11:22:12 <Jeremy> (slides are on their way)

(slides are on their way) ←

11:23:06 <Jeremy> on slide 4

on slide 4 ←

11:23:14 <sandro> Boris: Every OWL API wants to provide "what are the classes in this ontology", but what does that mean for OWL?

Boris Motik: Every OWL API wants to provide "what are the classes in this ontology", but what does that mean for OWL? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

11:23:29 <Jeremy> discussion of mention; use; definition?

discussion of mention; use; definition? ←

11:23:53 <Jeremy> very difficult to decide

very difficult to decide ←

11:23:54 <sandro> Jeremy: Why do these quesiton matter?

Jeremy Carroll: Why do these quesiton matter? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

11:23:57 <Jeremy> between these

between these ←

11:24:03 <Jeremy> Jeremy: why does this matter?

Jeremy Carroll: why does this matter? ←

11:24:14 <IanH_> Boris's talk is available at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~horrocks/boris.ppt

Ian Horrocks: Boris's talk is available at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~horrocks/boris.ppt ←

11:24:25 <sandro> Boris: The tool builders need answers.   EG protege gives a list of classes.

Boris Motik: The tool builders need answers. EG protege gives a list of classes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

11:25:28 <sandro> Peter: If protege and swoop list different classes, who cares...???

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: If protege and swoop list different classes, who cares...??? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

11:25:56 <Jeremy> Bijan: if we can improve interop on this, we should ...

Bijan Parsia: if we can improve interop on this, we should ... ←

11:25:57 <sandro> Bijan: let's only have UI variance if it's useful.

Bijan Parsia: let's only have UI variance if it's useful. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

11:26:54 <Jeremy> alan: if these are design criteria they should be exposed

Alan Ruttenberg: if these are design criteria they should be exposed ←

11:27:30 <Jeremy> boris: there are some explicit answers in the new spec

Boris Motik: there are some explicit answers in the new spec ←

11:27:50 <Jeremy> boris: W3C should care, because these things are implicit

Boris Motik: W3C should care, because these things are implicit ←

11:28:40 <Jeremy> peter: I still haven't heard a useful answer for tool designers

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: I still haven't heard a useful answer for tool designers ←

11:29:11 <Jeremy> alan: two people are looking at some ontology in two different lists - "please look at class FooBar ..."

Alan Ruttenberg: two people are looking at some ontology in two different lists - "please look at class FooBar ..." ←

11:30:06 <Jeremy> peter: but there's lots of example where two different UIs are difficult to interop

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: but there's lots of example where two different UIs are difficult to interop ←

11:30:13 <Jeremy> jeremy: let's have tests

Jeremy Carroll: let's have tests ←

11:30:26 <Jeremy> bijan: serialization tests would be good -

Bijan Parsia: serialization tests would be good - ←

11:30:30 <Joanne> to alan. what do you mean "in two different lists?"

Joanne Luciano: to alan. what do you mean "in two different lists?" ←

11:30:35 <Jeremy> bijan: users care abotu serialization

Bijan Parsia: users care abotu serialization ←

11:31:10 <Jeremy> bijan: OWL API

Bijan Parsia: OWL API ←

11:31:36 <Joanne> to Jeremy..tests would be good, but what kind of tests do you mean?

Joanne Luciano: to Jeremy..tests would be good, but what kind of tests do you mean? ←

11:32:01 <Jeremy> Ratnesh: a java program on two different dev environments, my program should behave similarly

Ratnesh Sahay: a java program on two different dev environments, my program should behave similarly ←

11:32:20 <Jeremy> Ratnesh: we care more about behaviour of program, than behaviour of tool

Ratnesh Sahay: we care more about behaviour of program, than behaviour of tool ←

11:33:10 <Jeremy> Ian: the set of classes in an ontology should be well-defined

Ian Horrocks: the set of classes in an ontology should be well-defined ←

11:34:28 <Michael_Smith> Michael: for explanation and debugging it is useful to have a mapping from entity or axiom to ontology

Scribe problem: the name 'Michael' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Michael Smith Michael Sintek . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Michael: for explanation and debugging it is useful to have a mapping from entity or axiom to ontology [ Scribe Assist by Michael Smith ] ←

11:34:44 <Jeremy> jjc: isn't OWL 1.0 clear?

Unknown jjc: isn't OWL 1.0 clear? ←

11:35:03 <Jeremy> jjc: requires xx rdf:type owl:Class

Unknown jjc: requires xx rdf:type owl:Class ←

11:35:23 <Jeremy> boris: e.g. imports or inferred triples

Boris Motik: e.g. imports or inferred triples ←

11:35:47 <Jeremy> alan: what is the underlying design model?

Alan Ruttenberg: what is the underlying design model? ←

11:35:47 <sandro> Alan: If the question is "What classes are mentioned in this ontology?" then we're fine.  It's not clear to me that any other question is relevant/important.   What motivates other questions?

Alan Ruttenberg: If the question is "What classes are mentioned in this ontology?" then we're fine. It's not clear to me that any other question is relevant/important. What motivates other questions? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

11:36:08 <Jeremy> boris: we want to design OWL 1.1 as an object model

Boris Motik: we want to design OWL 1.1 as an object model ←

11:36:51 <Jeremy> matthew: imports was too vague

Scribe problem: the name 'matthew' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown matthew: imports was too vague ←

11:38:49 <Jeremy> sebastian ?: many industrial users like object models

sebastian Brandt: many industrial users like object models ←

11:39:09 <Jeremy>  descriptions of triples are much less accesible

descriptions of triples are much less accesible ←

11:39:53 <ivan> s/?/Brandt/

11:40:19 <alanr> re: object oriented modeling of OWL. Cuts both ways: A lot of teaching OWL is unteaching object oriented thinking.

Scribe problem: the name 're' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown re: object oriented modeling of OWL. Cuts both ways: A lot of teaching OWL is unteaching object oriented thinking. [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←

11:40:21 <Jeremy> thanks ivan

thanks ivan ←

11:40:33 <Jeremy> slide 6

slide 6 ←

11:40:48 <Jeremy> expressivity enhancements uncontroversial

expressivity enhancements uncontroversial ←

11:40:50 <Jeremy> slide 7

slide 7 ←

11:41:02 <Jeremy> metamodelling needed also in OWL DL

metamodelling needed also in OWL DL ←

11:41:36 <Jeremy> e.g. an OWL-S type example

e.g. an OWL-S type example ←

11:42:07 <Jeremy> punning is a possible solution,

punning is a possible solution, ←

11:42:42 <Jeremy> applications want syntactic level, and don't want consequences

applications want syntactic level, and don't want consequences ←

11:42:58 <Jeremy> peter: which reasoners would require minor changes to support Hilog semantics

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: which reasoners would require minor changes to support Hilog semantics ←

11:43:21 <Jeremy> bijan/boris: easy to modify pellet

bijan/boris: easy to modify pellet ←

11:44:02 <Jeremy> (this is on last bullet points of slide 7)

(this is on last bullet points of slide 7) ←

11:44:12 <Jeremy> bijan: easy cases would be easy ...

Bijan Parsia: easy cases would be easy ... ←

11:44:22 <Jeremy> slide 8:

slide 8: ←

11:44:37 <Jeremy> B-nodes

B-nodes ←

11:44:45 <Jeremy> slide 9:

slide 9: ←

11:45:15 <Jeremy> jeremy: huge exlamation on first bullet

Jeremy Carroll: huge exlamation on first bullet ←

11:46:29 <Jeremy> bijan: OWL Semantics 1.0 is clear, OWL DL name, OWL Full location

Bijan Parsia: OWL Semantics 1.0 is clear, OWL DL name, OWL Full location ←

11:47:01 <Jeremy> alan: caching is a tool's issue

Alan Ruttenberg: caching is a tool's issue ←

11:47:09 <Jeremy> alan: caching does not break the spec

Alan Ruttenberg: caching does not break the spec ←

11:47:49 <Jeremy> bijan: some implementations change name when ontologies move

Bijan Parsia: some implementations change name when ontologies move ←

11:48:34 <Jeremy> alan: if I moved ontology from http:... to file:... then I can't import it, and then spec is broken

Alan Ruttenberg: if I moved ontology from http:... to file:... then I can't import it, and then spec is broken ←

11:48:51 <Michael_Smith> session on imports at 1400?

Michael Smith: session on imports at 1400? ←

11:48:51 <Jeremy> alan: disagrees with first bullet

Alan Ruttenberg: disagrees with first bullet ←

11:50:14 <Jeremy> we agree that we don't agree, but we're not clear what we don't agree on

we agree that we don't agree, but we're not clear what we don't agree on ←

11:50:18 <Joanne> alan, is the spec broken or the ontology broken?

Joanne Luciano: alan, is the spec broken or the ontology broken? ←

11:50:22 <Jeremy> slide 10

slide 10 ←

11:50:31 <alanr> I agree with everyone who disagrees with themselves

Alan Ruttenberg: I agree with everyone who disagrees with themselves ←

11:50:51 <Joanne> Then we are in agreement.

Joanne Luciano: Then we are in agreement. ←

11:51:55 <Jeremy> Bijan: we have session on annotations

Bijan Parsia: we have session on annotations ←

11:52:22 <Jeremy> Sebastian: annotations on axioms are useful

Scribe problem: the name 'Sebastian' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Sebastian: annotations on axioms are useful ←

11:52:55 <Jeremy> slide 11

slide 11 ←

11:53:38 <Jeremy> slide 12

slide 12 ←

11:54:46 <Jeremy> peter: all OWL DL reasoners are based on nonnormative docs

Scribe problem: the name 'peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown peter: all OWL DL reasoners are based on nonnormative docs ←

11:57:49 <Jeremy> (sorry scribe missed a bit)

(sorry scribe missed a bit) ←

11:58:03 <sandro> pfps, wiki draft of first session ready for cleanup (not sure if that's your job or not) at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F1_Minutes_Session_1

Sandro Hawke: pfps, wiki draft of first session ready for cleanup (not sure if that's your job or not) at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F1_Minutes_Session_1 ←

11:58:32 <Jeremy> bijan: it would be better if the implementors wer working more closely from normative docs

Bijan Parsia: it would be better if the implementors wer working more closely from normative docs ←

11:58:55 <Jeremy> ian: there is no claim that sean's nonnormative doc and normative spec say same thing

Ian Horrocks: there is no claim that sean's nonnormative doc and normative spec say same thing ←

12:00:22 <Jeremy> discussion on pellet and bnodes --

discussion on pellet and bnodes -- ←

12:00:36 <Jeremy> alan: pellet departs from spec

Alan Ruttenberg: pellet departs from spec ←

12:00:50 <Jeremy> bijan: we (pellet team) made choices

Bijan Parsia: we (pellet team) made choices ←

12:01:26 <alanr> alan: No reasoner completely implements spec. Didn't mean to pick on Pellet - it's just the one I know best

Alan Ruttenberg: No reasoner completely implements spec. Didn't mean to pick on Pellet - it's just the one I know best [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←

12:01:29 <Jeremy> slide 13

slide 13 ←

12:01:36 <alanr> Pellet is most complete, in my experience

Alan Ruttenberg: Pellet is most complete, in my experience ←

12:03:49 <Joanne> to Peter - thanks for the minutes. Pls add my name to those present.

Joanne Luciano: to Peter - thanks for the minutes. Pls add my name to those present. ←

12:05:08 <pascalhitzler> ScribeNick: pascalhitzler

(Scribe set to Pascal Hitzler)

12:05:36 <pascalhitzler> slide 15

slide 15 ←

12:07:26 <pascalhitzler> alan: interactoin of typing with RDF really a problem?

Alan Ruttenberg: interactoin of typing with RDF really a problem? ←

12:09:02 <pascalhitzler> alan: is the problem in the language or in the documentation of it?

Alan Ruttenberg: is the problem in the language or in the documentation of it? ←

12:09:46 <pascalhitzler> bijan: pellet does some repairs silently. spec could go in a similar direction

Bijan Parsia: pellet does some repairs silently. spec could go in a similar direction ←

12:10:10 <pascalhitzler> jeremy: questions on slide 15 answered on OWL 1.0 spec

Jeremy Carroll: questions on slide 15 answered on OWL 1.0 spec ←

12:10:55 <pascalhitzler> boris: some may be, but spec might need fixing or made more explicit

Boris Motik: some may be, but spec might need fixing or made more explicit ←

12:12:33 <pascalhitzler> ian: more clear spec desirable

Ian Horrocks: more clear spec desirable ←

12:13:15 <pascalhitzler> bijan: agrees about unclear parts in the spec

Bijan Parsia: agrees about unclear parts in the spec ←

12:14:23 <alanr> Alan agrees too. Took me a year, I reckon, to understand OWL

Alan Ruttenberg: Alan agrees too. Took me a year, I reckon, to understand OWL ←

12:14:24 <pascalhitzler> next session: on publication schedule and first public working draft

next session: on publication schedule and first public working draft ←

12:16:45 <pascalhitzler> vit: what short name to use?

Vit Novacek: what short name to use? ←

12:17:21 <dlm> hi

Deborah McGuinness: hi ←

12:17:23 <seanb> hello!

Scribe problem: the name 'seanb' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown seanb: hello! ←

12:17:31 <Rinke> hello?

Rinke Hoekstra: hello? ←

12:17:44 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Mapping_to_RDF_Graphs

Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Mapping_to_RDF_Graphs ←

12:17:53 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Semantics ←

12:17:59 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax

Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax ←

12:19:10 <pascalhitzler> collecting issues: (1) shortname

collecting issues: (1) shortname ←

12:19:22 <pascalhitzler> ivan: (1) should include namespace

Ivan Herman: (1) should include namespace ←

12:19:37 <pascalhitzler> (2) document titles

(2) document titles ←

12:19:58 <pascalhitzler> ian: need to decide if namespace is an issue

Ian Horrocks: need to decide if namespace is an issue ←

12:21:04 <pascalhitzler> (3) SOTD

(3) SOTD ←

12:21:13 <pascalhitzler> (4) WIKI extraction

(4) WIKI extraction ←

12:21:37 <pascalhitzler> (5) attribution etc.

(5) attribution etc. ←

12:22:23 <pascalhitzler> bijan: need to do editorial cleanup (part of (4))

Bijan Parsia: need to do editorial cleanup (part of (4)) ←

12:23:14 <pascalhitzler> bijan: deadlines need to be watched

Bijan Parsia: deadlines need to be watched ←

12:23:24 <pascalhitzler> about (1) short name (+ namespace)

about (1) short name (+ namespace) ←

12:24:01 <pascalhitzler> suggestions: owlwot, alan: owltoo

Scribe problem: the name 'suggestions' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown suggestions: owlwot, alan: owltoo ←

12:24:20 <pascalhitzler> alan: calling it OWL may overload and thus be difficult

Alan Ruttenberg: calling it OWL may overload and thus be difficult ←

12:24:58 <pascalhitzler> ... something neutral to version name?

... something neutral to version name? ←

12:26:10 <pascalhitzler> sandro: no problem with same names

Sandro Hawke: no problem with same names ←

12:26:18 <pascalhitzler> alan: might be confusing

Alan Ruttenberg: might be confusing ←

12:26:40 <Joanne> -> I've lost track of where we are... are we on the Mapping to RDF Graphs?

Joanne Luciano: -> I've lost track of where we are... are we on the Mapping to RDF Graphs? ←

12:27:15 <IanH_> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-guide/

Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-guide/ ←

12:27:20 <Joanne> thansk

Joanne Luciano: thansk ←

12:27:33 <IanH_> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/

Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/ ←

12:27:36 <ivan> current names: owl-features, owl-guide, owl-ref, owl-semantics, owl-test, webont-req

Ivan Herman: current names: owl-features, owl-guide, owl-ref, owl-semantics, owl-test, webont-req ←

12:27:46 <IanH_> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/

Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/ ←

12:27:55 <Joanne> which one at this moment?

Joanne Luciano: which one at this moment? ←

12:28:03 <IanH_> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/

Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/ ←

12:28:06 <pascalhitzler> sandro: using same name is only a problem if exactly the same document name is use

Sandro Hawke: using same name is only a problem if exactly the same document name is use ←

12:28:17 <IanH_> http://www.w3.org/TR/webont-req/

Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/TR/webont-req/ ←

12:28:30 <IanH_> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-xmlsyntax/

Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-xmlsyntax/ ←

12:28:59 <pascalhitzler> evan: so why not call it OWL1.1?

Evan Wallace: so why not call it OWL1.1? ←

12:29:15 <pascalhitzler> bijan: OWL1.1 is one possibility

Bijan Parsia: OWL1.1 is one possibility ←

12:29:26 <pascalhitzler> sandro: you want a URL which is the link to the latest version of the spec

Sandro Hawke: you want a URL which is the link to the latest version of the spec ←

12:29:49 <pascalhitzler> evan: you need a name which redirects to the short name?

Evan Wallace: you need a name which redirects to the short name? ←

12:30:21 <pascalhitzler> pfps: eventually pointers to owl1.1 docs might go away ...

Peter Patel-Schneider: eventually pointers to owl1.1 docs might go away ... ←

12:30:39 <pascalhitzler> ... but that's independent of the document names

... but that's independent of the document names ←

12:30:58 <sandro> I see ....     in going from 1.1 to 1.2 we're going to have the same problem, so yes, the short-name needs the version.    because the WD shadows the REC.

Sandro Hawke: I see .... in going from 1.1 to 1.2 we're going to have the same problem, so yes, the short-name needs the version. because the WD shadows the REC. ←

12:31:10 <Joanne> call it OWL-DL?  :-)

Joanne Luciano: call it OWL-DL? :-) ←

12:31:12 <pascalhitzler> ian: we can't use "owl-semantics" right now. ivan: because that's the working draft

Ian Horrocks: we can't use "owl-semantics" right now. ivan: because that's the working draft ←

12:32:06 <pascalhitzler> bijan: OWLWOT, OWLTOO looks strange

Bijan Parsia: OWLWOT, OWLTOO looks strange ←

12:32:16 <pascalhitzler> ... proposes OWL1.1 or OWL11 or OWL-11

... proposes OWL1.1 or OWL11 or OWL-11 ←

12:32:36 <pascalhitzler> ian: what about OWLTOO

Ian Horrocks: what about OWLTOO ←

12:33:01 <pascalhitzler> sandro: different names suggest different levels of compatibility

Sandro Hawke: different names suggest different levels of compatibility ←

12:33:06 <Joanne> what are we naming????

Joanne Luciano: what are we naming???? ←

12:33:27 <dlm> yes - current proposals are owl1.1  and owl1-1

Deborah McGuinness: yes - current proposals are owl1.1 and owl1-1 ←

12:33:28 <pascalhitzler> bijan: OWL1.1 (with any kind of minor changes)

Bijan Parsia: OWL1.1 (with any kind of minor changes) ←

12:34:23 <Joanne> I like OWL 1.1 - don't fix what aint broke :-)  (thanks!)

Joanne Luciano: I like OWL 1.1 - don't fix what aint broke :-) (thanks!) ←

12:34:44 <pascalhitzler> sugestions OWL 1-1, OWL11, OWL-1-1

sugestions OWL 1-1, OWL11, OWL-1-1 ←

12:34:59 <pascalhitzler> ivan: decision has to be formally recorded according to charter

Ivan Herman: decision has to be formally recorded according to charter ←

12:35:20 <pascalhitzler> ian: should discuss point (2) at the same time

Ian Horrocks: should discuss point (2) at the same time ←

12:35:33 <pascalhitzler> ... what is going to be named in document title?

... what is going to be named in document title? ←

12:35:42 <Joanne> pascal... the general name of the language?  (I'm looking forward to audio)

Joanne Luciano: pascal... the general name of the language? (I'm looking forward to audio) ←

12:35:58 <pascalhitzler> alan: procedural question: can we resolve this here? what about absent people?

Alan Ruttenberg: procedural question: can we resolve this here? what about absent people? ←

12:36:12 <pascalhitzler> bijan explains: may not resolve things which have not been on the agenda

bijan explains: may not resolve things which have not been on the agenda ←

12:36:29 <pascalhitzler> ppfs: may be arguable

Scribe problem: the name 'ppfs' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ppfs: may be arguable ←

12:36:52 <bmotik> a/ppfs/pfps

Boris Motik: a/pfps/pfps ←

12:36:53 <pascalhitzler> ivan: was the issue of document titles on the agenda?

Ivan Herman: was the issue of document titles on the agenda? ←

12:36:58 <bmotik> s/ppfs/pfps

12:38:13 <pascalhitzler> some discussion about which things that can be resolved in the F2F

some discussion about which things that can be resolved in the F2F ←

12:38:42 <pascalhitzler> alan: supports bijan that we should decide things, and people can appeal to chairs to reopen

Alan Ruttenberg: supports bijan that we should decide things, and people can appeal to chairs to reopen ←

12:38:47 <pascalhitzler> ... an issue

... an issue ←

12:39:19 <pascalhitzler> sandro: in this case: does it need to be decided right now?

Sandro Hawke: in this case: does it need to be decided right now? ←

12:39:41 <pascalhitzler> daborah: against owl2/owltoo

Scribe problem: the name 'daborah' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown daborah: against owl2/owltoo ←

12:39:59 <pascalhitzler> ian makes straw poll 1.1 against 2 (clear positive outcome for 1.1)

ian makes straw poll 1.1 against 2 (clear positive outcome for 1.1) ←

12:40:12 <pascalhitzler> ian: let's decide for 1.1

Ian Horrocks: let's decide for 1.1 ←

12:40:29 <pascalhitzler> proposed and resolved: it's going to be 1.1 (in some form)

proposed and resolved: it's going to be 1.1 (in some form) ←

12:40:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: Our publications will refer to this work as "OWL 1.1"  (not OWL 2.0, etc)

PROPOSED: Our publications will refer to this work as "OWL 1.1" (not OWL 2.0, etc) ←

12:41:50 <alanr> any objections?

Alan Ruttenberg: any objections? ←

12:42:02 <sandro> RESOLVED: Our publications will refer to this work as "OWL 1.1"  (not OWL 2.0, etc)

RESOLVED: Our publications will refer to this work as "OWL 1.1" (not OWL 2.0, etc) ←

12:42:11 <sandro> (no abstentions, no objections)

Sandro Hawke: (no abstentions, no objections) ←

12:42:13 <pascalhitzler> ian: asks for objections, abstantions on that. none recorded

Ian Horrocks: asks for objections, abstantions on that. none recorded ←

12:43:12 <pascalhitzler> ivan: other specs seem to use similars to OWL11

Ivan Herman: other specs seem to use similars to OWL11 ←

12:43:31 <pascalhitzler> sandro: would like to postpone this and find out some background

Sandro Hawke: would like to postpone this and find out some background ←

12:44:05 <pascalhitzler> ian: straw poll: do we want "owl11" ?

Ian Horrocks: straw poll: do we want "owl11" ? ←

12:44:19 <sandro> PROPOSED: To ask for shortname "owl11-[whatever]"

PROPOSED: To ask for shortname "owl11-[whatever]" ←

12:45:00 <sandro> some interest in OWL-1-1

Sandro Hawke: some interest in OWL-1-1 ←

12:45:10 <pascalhitzler> some preference in OWL-1-1 mentioned

some preference in OWL-1-1 mentioned ←

12:45:25 <pascalhitzler> ian: what about namespace?

Ian Horrocks: what about namespace? ←

12:45:31 <pascalhitzler> ivan: tough one

Ivan Herman: tough one ←

12:45:43 <pascalhitzler> pfps: proposes brief discussion about it

Peter Patel-Schneider: proposes brief discussion about it ←

12:46:23 <pascalhitzler> pfps: should reuse the namespace

Peter Patel-Schneider: should reuse the namespace ←

12:46:32 <pascalhitzler> several people second reusing the namespace

several people second reusing the namespace ←

12:46:35 <sandro> Alan: I know now that I don't know whrether to resuse ns

Alan Ruttenberg: I know now that I don't know whrether to resuse ns [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

12:47:25 <pascalhitzler> straw poll on this: tendency for reusing namespace, but not uncontroversial

straw poll on this: tendency for reusing namespace, but not uncontroversial ←

12:48:32 <pascalhitzler> alan: if owl constructs change semantics then it may be difficult to reuse name space

Alan Ruttenberg: if owl constructs change semantics then it may be difficult to reuse name space ←

12:49:00 <pascalhitzler> ulrike: wasn't the idea not to change any of the constructs already present?

Scribe problem: the name 'ulrike' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ulrike: wasn't the idea not to change any of the constructs already present? ←

12:49:05 <pascalhitzler> ivan: are we sure this won't happen?

Ivan Herman: are we sure this won't happen? ←

12:49:12 <pascalhitzler> ian: we don't have to decide on this right now

Ian Horrocks: we don't have to decide on this right now ←

12:49:36 <pascalhitzler> bijan: new constructs should have new names

Bijan Parsia: new constructs should have new names ←

12:50:06 <pascalhitzler> ... we will add new things into to the namespace

... we will add new things into to the namespace ←

12:50:31 <pascalhitzler> ... expanding vocabulary is considered difficult by some people

... expanding vocabulary is considered difficult by some people ←

12:50:51 <pascalhitzler> ian: summary: tendency for reusing, but issue can be postponed

Ian Horrocks: summary: tendency for reusing, but issue can be postponed ←

12:51:11 <pascalhitzler> pfps: need to be careful on first working draft that it doesn't cause confusion in terms of namespace

Peter Patel-Schneider: need to be careful on first working draft that it doesn't cause confusion in terms of namespace ←

12:51:21 <alanr> Just to put it on the record, I also lean to reusing the namespace. Just worried about the unknown unknowns

Alan Ruttenberg: Just to put it on the record, I also lean to reusing the namespace. Just worried about the unknown unknowns ←

12:51:34 <pascalhitzler> bijan takes action to take care of this

bijan takes action to take care of this ←

12:52:02 <sandro> ACTION: Bijan to put alert box in all the documents about the status of the namespace

ACTION: Bijan to put alert box in all the documents about the status of the namespace ←

12:52:02 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-35 - Put alert box in all the documents about the status of the namespace [on Bijan Parsia - due 2007-12-13].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-35 - Put alert box in all the documents about the status of the namespace [on Bijan Parsia - due 2007-12-13]. ←

12:52:35 <sandro> Alan: say it "owl" subject to change, not "owl11" subject to change.

Alan Ruttenberg: say it "owl" subject to change, not "owl11" subject to change. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

12:52:39 <pascalhitzler> boris: old names are still in old namespace (current document)

Boris Motik: old names are still in old namespace (current document) ←

12:52:53 <Joanne> We need to be careful not to make "OWL" "OUCH"

Joanne Luciano: We need to be careful not to make "OWL" "OUCH" ←

12:52:56 <pascalhitzler> bijan: suggests to leave the two namespaces as they are right now

Bijan Parsia: suggests to leave the two namespaces as they are right now ←

12:53:10 <sandro> bijan: let's not make owl 1.1 implementors change anything right now.

Bijan Parsia: let's not make owl 1.1 implementors change anything right now. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

12:53:34 <Joanne> I agree with Bijan ... not make owl 1.1 implementors change anything right now

Joanne Luciano: I agree with Bijan ... not make owl 1.1 implementors change anything right now ←

12:53:37 <sandro> bijan: there are owl 1.1 ontologies on the web right now.

Bijan Parsia: there are owl 1.1 ontologies on the web right now. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

12:54:23 <pascalhitzler> alan: straw poll: leave as is with warnings (agreed)

Alan Ruttenberg: straw poll: leave as is with warnings (agreed) ←

12:54:43 <pascalhitzler> boris has action to do the changes (add warnings) in the docs

boris has action to do the changes (add warnings) in the docs ←

12:54:56 <Joanne> warnings are good

Joanne Luciano: warnings are good ←

12:55:14 <pascalhitzler> ivan about doc titles: suggests owl11 DL

ivan about doc titles: suggests owl11 DL ←

12:55:27 <sandro> Ivan: functional syntax doc is DL-only, so that should be in the title?

Ivan Herman: functional syntax doc is DL-only, so that should be in the title? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

12:56:15 <pascalhitzler> ian: functional syntax is not entirely irrelevant outside DL

Ian Horrocks: functional syntax is not entirely irrelevant outside DL ←

12:56:25 <pascalhitzler> alan: needs to be decided later

Alan Ruttenberg: needs to be decided later ←

12:56:43 <pascalhitzler> ian: see 1.0 docs on abstract syntax

Ian Horrocks: see 1.0 docs on abstract syntax ←

12:57:10 <pascalhitzler> bijan: in some way structural syntax specifies OWL Full

Bijan Parsia: in some way structural syntax specifies OWL Full ←

12:57:19 <pascalhitzler> ivan: but there are statements which cannot be expressed in it

Ivan Herman: but there are statements which cannot be expressed in it ←

12:59:11 <pascalhitzler> ... should not forget that this is an issue

... should not forget that this is an issue ←

12:59:27 <pascalhitzler> ian: action on this?

Ian Horrocks: action on this? ←

12:59:36 <pascalhitzler> ivan: need a list of editors first?

Ivan Herman: need a list of editors first? ←

12:59:50 <pascalhitzler> moving on to point (5)

moving on to point (5) ←

13:00:23 <pascalhitzler> alan: proposes for current draft that attributions should be as they are

Alan Ruttenberg: proposes for current draft that attributions should be as they are ←

13:00:39 <pascalhitzler> ... next draft if substantive changes, attributions should be reevaluated

... next draft if substantive changes, attributions should be reevaluated ←

13:01:08 <pascalhitzler> bijan: question is if chairs want to assign editors. bijan suggests chairs do that

Bijan Parsia: question is if chairs want to assign editors. bijan suggests chairs do that ←

13:01:11 <Joanne> Point 5: attribution etc. (reiterated)

Joanne Luciano: Point 5: attribution etc. (reiterated) ←

13:01:19 <pascalhitzler> alan: would like to not do that right now

Alan Ruttenberg: would like to not do that right now ←

13:02:17 <pascalhitzler> pfps: somebody needs to put more work into it soon ... credit should be given

Peter Patel-Schneider: somebody needs to put more work into it soon ... credit should be given ←

13:03:16 <pascalhitzler> ivan: seconds alan: currently mentioned people stay editors for the current version

Ivan Herman: seconds alan: currently mentioned people stay editors for the current version ←

13:03:32 <Joanne> pascal, where's the reference to attributions?

Joanne Luciano: pascal, where's the reference to attributions? ←

13:04:14 <pascalhitzler> some more discussio non editors for current version

some more discussio non editors for current version ←

13:04:17 <Joanne> where can I find the stuff being discussed about attributions?

Joanne Luciano: where can I find the stuff being discussed about attributions? ←

13:04:34 <Joanne> or does everyone mean - how to attribute people who contribute?

Joanne Luciano: or does everyone mean - how to attribute people who contribute? ←

13:05:10 <pascalhitzler> bijan: wants editors assigned now

Bijan Parsia: wants editors assigned now ←

13:05:43 <Joanne> ahh, ok, so "attributions" in the geneneral sense, it's not some weird obscure aspect of OWL semantics

Joanne Luciano: ahh, ok, so "attributions" in the geneneral sense, it's not some weird obscure aspect of OWL semantics ←

13:05:50 <pascalhitzler> alan proposes current authors are editors for the current version

alan proposes current authors are editors for the current version ←

13:06:34 <Joanne> I believe I have funding now that could support my ability to contribute as an editor

Joanne Luciano: I believe I have funding now that could support my ability to contribute as an editor ←

13:07:37 <pascalhitzler> ian: should now decide whose job it will be

Ian Horrocks: should now decide whose job it will be ←

13:08:06 <alanr> successful test

Alan Ruttenberg: successful test ←

13:08:23 <pascalhitzler> ian: proposal that boris, peter and bijan work  on syntax (they would agree)

Ian Horrocks: proposal that boris, peter and bijan work on syntax (they would agree) ←

13:08:40 <pascalhitzler> ian: bernardo, boris for semantics document? would agree as well

Ian Horrocks: bernardo, boris for semantics document? would agree as well ←

13:09:00 <pascalhitzler> ... bernardo, boris would also do the mapping document

... bernardo, boris would also do the mapping document ←

13:09:09 <pascalhitzler> ... are we happy if they do it?

... are we happy if they do it? ←

13:09:19 <pascalhitzler> ... straw poll on this: no objections

... straw poll on this: no objections ←

13:09:54 <pascalhitzler> was agreed that attributions will stay the same in current version of the documents as they are stated right now

was agreed that attributions will stay the same in current version of the documents as they are stated right now ←

13:10:36 <Joanne> so is there no room for me to contribute and be attributed?

Joanne Luciano: so is there no room for me to contribute and be attributed? ←

13:10:38 <pascalhitzler> ivan: doesn't it need to be called editor?

Ivan Herman: doesn't it need to be called editor? ←

13:10:58 <sandro> sandro: I doubt it

Sandro Hawke: I doubt it [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:11:13 <Joanne> ???

Joanne Luciano: ??? ←

13:11:15 <sandro> Ian: If it has to change from author to editor, then that can be chairs decision

Ian Horrocks: If it has to change from author to editor, then that can be chairs decision [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:11:15 <cgi-irc> Joanne, we're only talking about FPWD

Unknown cgi-irc: Joanne, we're only talking about FPWD ←

13:11:20 <pascalhitzler> editor/author question to be sorted by chairs

editor/author question to be sorted by chairs ←

13:11:27 <cgi-irc> We've not mentioned acknowledgements (for examle)

Unknown cgi-irc: We've not mentioned acknowledgements (for examle) ←

13:11:29 <pascalhitzler> moving to point (4)

moving to point (4) ←

13:11:34 <cgi-irc> And this is explicitly temporary

Unknown cgi-irc: And this is explicitly temporary ←

13:11:45 <pascalhitzler> editorial cleanup in the wiki plus wiki extraction

editorial cleanup in the wiki plus wiki extraction ←

13:11:53 <Joanne> what's FPWD?

Joanne Luciano: what's FPWD? ←

13:12:13 <Joanne> who's cgi-irc?

Joanne Luciano: who's cgi-irc? ←

13:12:17 <sandro> First Public Working Draft

Sandro Hawke: First Public Working Draft ←

13:12:27 <Joanne> thanks!

Joanne Luciano: thanks! ←

13:12:41 <pascalhitzler> about (4): issues from working drafts will stay

about (4): issues from working drafts will stay ←

13:13:05 <pascalhitzler> alan: useful comments should be left but scripted away

Alan Ruttenberg: useful comments should be left but scripted away ←

13:14:37 <pascalhitzler> concerning: resolution to publish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF documents as First Public Working Drafts

Scribe problem: the name 'concerning' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown concerning: resolution to publish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF documents as First Public Working Drafts ←

13:14:45 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF documents as First Public Working Drafts

PROPOSED: Publish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF documents as First Public Working Drafts ←

13:14:45 <pascalhitzler> ian: straw poll - no objections

Ian Horrocks: straw poll - no objections ←

13:14:52 <pascalhitzler> ... no objections

... no objections ←

13:15:34 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF documents (as on the wiki right now) as First Public Working Drafts

PROPOSED: Publish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF documents (as on the wiki right now) as First Public Working Drafts ←

13:16:05 <sandro> using http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=41712&public=1&order=org

Sandro Hawke: using http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=41712&public=1&order=org ←

13:16:12 <sandro> Formal Vote:

Sandro Hawke: Formal Vote: ←

13:16:26 <sandro> Abstain: W3C

Scribe problem: the name 'Abstain' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Abstain: W3C [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

13:16:32 <pascalhitzler> ian: formal vote on this (reminder: only one vote per member): W3C abstains, no objections

Ian Horrocks: formal vote on this (reminder: only one vote per member): W3C abstains, no objections ←

13:16:45 <sandro> In favor: all member orgs present in room.

Sandro Hawke: In favor: all member orgs present in room. ←

13:16:54 <alanr> joanne?

Alan Ruttenberg: joanne? ←

13:17:06 <alanr> if you are there, could you please vote on proposal?

Alan Ruttenberg: if you are there, could you please vote on proposal? ←

13:17:07 <Joanne> i'm here

Joanne Luciano: i'm here ←

13:17:15 <Joanne> in favor

Joanne Luciano: in favor ←

13:17:31 <IanH_> Anyone else out there who would like to vote?

Ian Horrocks: Anyone else out there who would like to vote? ←

13:18:03 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF documents (as on the wiki right now) as First Public Working Drafts

RESOLVED: Publish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF documents (as on the wiki right now) as First Public Working Drafts ←

13:18:25 <pascalhitzler> ian: lunch break now

Ian Horrocks: lunch break now ←

13:18:35 <sandro> Lunch.

Sandro Hawke: Lunch. ←

13:18:40 <pascalhitzler> bijan: thanks to sean for taking care of organisation ...

Bijan Parsia: thanks to sean for taking care of organisation ... ←

13:18:52 <sandro> scribe after lunch to be markus

Sandro Hawke: scribe after lunch to be markus ←

13:26:10 <sandro> Jeremy, Pascal -- http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F1_Minutes_Session_2 is ready for cleanup

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Sandro Hawke: Jeremy, Pascal -- http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F1_Minutes_Session_2 is ready for cleanup ←

13:27:24 <Joanne> Sandro, thanks. I hope the audio doesn't take too much time away from your lunch.

Joanne Luciano: Sandro, thanks. I hope the audio doesn't take too much time away from your lunch. ←

13:56:52 <MarkusK> scribenick MarkusK

(No events recorded for 29 minutes)

Markus Krötzsch: scribenick MarkusK ←

14:03:04 <IanH_> You can dial in to Zakim in the usual way

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Ian Horrocks: You can dial in to Zakim in the usual way ←

14:03:24 <Joanne> great, thanks!

Joanne Luciano: great, thanks! ←

14:03:42 <IanH_> Can you please dial in and say something so we can see if it works

Ian Horrocks: Can you please dial in and say something so we can see if it works ←

14:04:18 <IanH_> Can you please dial in and say something so we can see if it works

Ian Horrocks: Can you please dial in and say something so we can see if it works ←

14:06:00 <Joanne> hi sean. i just dialed into zakim

Joanne Luciano: hi sean. i just dialed into zakim ←

14:07:58 <MarkusK> topic: Imports

6. Imports

14:08:21 <MarkusK> wikipage: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports

Scribe problem: the name 'wikipage' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown wikipage: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:09:00 <Joanne> i just lost audio

Joanne Luciano: i just lost audio ←

14:09:14 <Joanne> did someone step on the phone?

Joanne Luciano: did someone step on the phone? ←

14:09:33 <Joanne> back on now. thanks!

Joanne Luciano: back on now. thanks! ←

14:09:53 <Joanne> loud and clear. thanks!

Joanne Luciano: loud and clear. thanks! ←

14:10:16 <MarkusK> pfps repeats imports definitions from OWL DL, OWL Full

Markus Krötzsch: pfps repeats imports definitions from OWL DL, OWL Full ←

14:10:24 <MarkusK> (compare http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Nov/0565.html)

Markus Krötzsch: (compare http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Nov/0565.html) ←

14:10:37 <IanH_> Peter's talk just sent by email and is also at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~horrocks/peter-talk.html

Ian Horrocks: Peter's talk just sent by email and is also at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~horrocks/peter-talk.html ←

14:11:19 <bijan> Text on screen is also on: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports

Bijan Parsia: Text on screen is also on: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports ←

14:12:22 <MarkusK> pfps: differences relate to whether ontology names or locations are assumed in import statements

Peter Patel-Schneider: differences relate to whether ontology names or locations are assumed in import statements [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:13:02 <MarkusK> bijan: not all ontologies have names, right?

Bijan Parsia: not all ontologies have names, right? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:13:15 <MarkusK> pfps: yes, only importable ontologies need a name.

Peter Patel-Schneider: yes, only importable ontologies need a name. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:13:23 <MarkusK> pfps: this appears to be a bug

Peter Patel-Schneider: this appears to be a bug [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:14:22 <MarkusK> boris: (1) there should be only one kind of import, not three

Boris Motik: (1) there should be only one kind of import, not three [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:15:17 <MarkusK> ... (2) it should be possible to reconstruct the location from whic some statement was imported from, e.g. for editing

Markus Krötzsch: ... (2) it should be possible to reconstruct the location from whic some statement was imported from, e.g. for editing ←

14:16:12 <sandro> zakim, this is owl

Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is owl ←

14:16:12 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_OWL(F2F)6:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_OWL(F2F)6:00AM ←

14:16:15 <MarkusK> bijan: the name and location can be different, the question is how to deal with it. This seems to be agreed on.

Bijan Parsia: the name and location can be different, the question is how to deal with it. This seems to be agreed on. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:16:42 <MarkusK> pfps: OWL1.1 imports are based on ontology names only

Peter Patel-Schneider: OWL1.1 imports are based on ontology names only [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:17:04 <MarkusK> ... this is completely different from OWL1.0, where the name must be the location.

Markus Krötzsch: ... this is completely different from OWL1.0, where the name must be the location. ←

14:17:25 <MarkusK> ... We do not have XML inclusions (a mechanism working with location only).

Markus Krötzsch: ... We do not have XML inclusions (a mechanism working with location only). ←

14:17:32 <Joanne> what are the implications of the differences?

Joanne Luciano: what are the implications of the differences? ←

14:17:49 <MarkusK> ... Summing up there are two different designs: name and location based importing.

Markus Krötzsch: ... Summing up there are two different designs: name and location based importing. ←

14:18:14 <MarkusK> pfps: various questions arise

Peter Patel-Schneider: various questions arise [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:18:30 <MarkusK> ... (1) should every ontology (be forced to) have a name?

Markus Krötzsch: ... (1) should every ontology (be forced to) have a name? ←

14:19:10 <MarkusK> ... (2) should name and location be the same (i.e. should the name always indicate the location)?

Markus Krötzsch: ... (2) should name and location be the same (i.e. should the name always indicate the location)? ←

14:19:51 <MarkusK> (3) should imports be by name or by location?

Markus Krötzsch: (3) should imports be by name or by location? ←

14:20:01 <MarkusK> s /(3)/... (3)/

Markus Krötzsch: s /(3)/... (3)/ ←

14:20:41 <MarkusK> Jeremy: this seems to be a general web architechture issue.

Jeremy Carroll: this seems to be a general web architechture issue. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:21:30 <MarkusK> Bijan: in general URIs are not locations, but there might be (multiple) hints for actually finding the document.

Bijan Parsia: in general URIs are not locations, but there might be (multiple) hints for actually finding the document. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:22:06 <Jeremy> Alan: are imports broken?

Alan Ruttenberg: are imports broken? [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

14:22:11 <Jeremy> Peter: no

Scribe problem: the name 'Peter' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Peter Patel-Schneider Peter Haase . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Peter: no [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

14:22:17 <Jeremy> Boris: yes

Boris Motik: yes [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

14:22:22 <Jeremy> Jeremy: no

Jeremy Carroll: no [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

14:23:00 <MarkusK> pfps: versioning is another problem

Peter Patel-Schneider: versioning is another problem [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:23:23 <MarkusK> Alan: this goes beyond the importing issue

Alan Ruttenberg: this goes beyond the importing issue [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:24:14 <MarkusK> pfps: every importable ontology needs some location, but it need not be on the web

Peter Patel-Schneider: every importable ontology needs some location, but it need not be on the web [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:25:08 <MarkusK> boris: a typical use case is that two ontologies (one importing the other) reside in some file repository and then are moved to the web. How do you support this?

Boris Motik: a typical use case is that two ontologies (one importing the other) reside in some file repository and then are moved to the web. How do you support this? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:25:14 <MarkusK> ... locations change ove time

Markus Krötzsch: ... locations change ove time ←

14:25:25 <MarkusK> ... this is not just a caching issue

Markus Krötzsch: ... this is not just a caching issue ←

14:25:37 <MarkusK> ... What they are doing in XML Schema may be a good solution.

Markus Krötzsch: ... What they are doing in XML Schema may be a good solution. ←

14:25:59 <MarkusK> ... When importing an ontology, I do not care where it lives. It might even have many copies.

Markus Krötzsch: ... When importing an ontology, I do not care where it lives. It might even have many copies. ←

14:26:18 <Achille> +1 for an approach similar to XML Schema

Achille Fokoue: +1 for an approach similar to XML Schema ←

14:26:47 <sandro> zakim, who is one the phone?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is one the phone? ←

14:26:47 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, sandro.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, sandro. ←

14:26:54 <sandro> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←

14:26:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joanne_Luciano, ??P2, [IBM]

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Joanne_Luciano, ??P2, [IBM] ←

14:26:54 <MarkusK> Alan: I suggest that names and locations might be different, but importing one ontologies from some location should also make this location a name for the ontology.

Alan Ruttenberg: I suggest that names and locations might be different, but importing one ontologies from some location should also make this location a name for the ontology. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:27:06 <sandro> Zakim, [IBM] is temporarily Achille

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, [IBM] is temporarily Achille ←

14:27:06 <Zakim> +Achille; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Achille; got it ←

14:27:11 <MarkusK> Bijan: I do not understand the proposal

Bijan Parsia: I do not understand the proposal [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:27:18 <sandro> Zakim, ??P2 is Meeting_Room

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, ??P2 is Meeting_Room ←

14:27:18 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room; got it ←

14:27:53 <MarkusK> Alan: every importable ontology has a name which is also a location, but it is possible that the same ontologies have different names in the sameAs-sense.

Alan Ruttenberg: every importable ontology has a name which is also a location, but it is possible that the same ontologies have different names in the sameAs-sense. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:28:39 <MarkusK> ... importing may lead to the inference (?) that two names refer to the same ontology.

Markus Krötzsch: ... importing may lead to the inference (?) that two names refer to the same ontology. ←

14:28:46 <MarkusK> All: clarification needed.

Scribe problem: the name 'All' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown All: clarification needed. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:29:07 <MarkusK> Alan: every name should be a location, they are linked together.

Alan Ruttenberg: every name should be a location, they are linked together. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:29:15 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q? ←

14:29:22 <Achille> q+

Achille Fokoue: q+ ←

14:29:58 <MarkusK> ... just if a name does not match its location, then this alternative name should be deduced.

Markus Krötzsch: ... just if a name does not match its location, then this alternative name should be deduced. ←

14:30:26 <MarkusK> Bernardo: when you have an ontology name occuring in documents in different locations, how do you know they are the same?

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: when you have an ontology name occuring in documents in different locations, how do you know they are the same? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:30:40 <MarkusK> Boris: well, it is just *the*, say, Wine ontology

Boris Motik: well, it is just *the*, say, Wine ontology [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:30:48 <MarkusK> Bernardo: but there could be versions

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: but there could be versions [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:30:59 <MarkusK> ... e.g. if someone adds axioms

Markus Krötzsch: ... e.g. if someone adds axioms ←

14:31:32 <sandro> Boris: It's like Java classpath --- it's DELIBERATELY left out of the spec, so name-to-location can be handled in different ways.

Boris Motik: It's like Java classpath --- it's DELIBERATELY left out of the spec, so name-to-location can be handled in different ways. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:31:43 <MarkusK> Boris: this is not specified, but a similar mechanism is found in including classes in Java. Java uses names but the application environment must resolve the locations.

Boris Motik: this is not specified, but a similar mechanism is found in including classes in Java. Java uses names but the application environment must resolve the locations. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:31:54 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

14:32:27 <Joanne> it would be useful for me to see a table of options and tradeoffs

Joanne Luciano: it would be useful for me to see a table of options and tradeoffs ←

14:33:00 <MarkusK> Jeremy: there are two cases: creating an ontology and publishing it, and the reverse, downloading and caching an ontology from the web.

Jeremy Carroll: there are two cases: creating an ontology and publishing it, and the reverse, downloading and caching an ontology from the web. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:33:13 <MarkusK> ... we should concentrate on the web/caching aspect, not on the publishing aspect.

Markus Krötzsch: ... we should concentrate on the web/caching aspect, not on the publishing aspect. ←

14:33:45 <MarkusK> Evan: Many people in ISO want to use URNs as a name, and these are not locations.

Evan Wallace: Many people in ISO want to use URNs as a name, and these are not locations. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:34:26 <MarkusK> Alan: I would also say that an ontology name is a URI, not always a URL, but to import it, you need a location which would then become a synonym.

Alan Ruttenberg: I would also say that an ontology name is a URI, not always a URL, but to import it, you need a location which would then become a synonym. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:34:38 <Michael_Smith> I second evan's observation that users choose ontology names that are intentionally not resolvable.  e.g., tag URIs

Michael Smith: I second evan's observation that users choose ontology names that are intentionally not resolvable. e.g., tag URIs ←

14:35:09 <bijan> +1 to that seconding; "on the web, names == locations" is just false.

Bijan Parsia: +1 to that seconding; "on the web, names == locations" is just false. ←

14:35:54 <Joanne> +1 agree, separate and deal with separtely - nice proposal on the phone now

Joanne Luciano: +1 agree, separate and deal with separtely - nice proposal on the phone now ←

14:36:19 <MarkusK> Achille: the inclusion mechanism of XML Schema (XML Schema import not XMLinclude) is a good solution.

Achille Fokoue: the inclusion mechanism of XML Schema (XML Schema import not XMLinclude) is a good solution. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:36:22 <Joanne> who was just speaking?

Joanne Luciano: who was just speaking? ←

14:36:30 <Joanne> about the configuration file?

Joanne Luciano: about the configuration file? ←

14:36:59 <MarkusK> ... names should not be tied to locations, but further sources should be used to resolve names.

Markus Krötzsch: ... names should not be tied to locations, but further sources should be used to resolve names. ←

14:37:01 <Jeremy> achille was speaking

Jeremy Carroll: achille was speaking ←

14:37:19 <MarkusK> Alan: is this consistent with my proposal for having many locations for some ontology?

Alan Ruttenberg: is this consistent with my proposal for having many locations for some ontology? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:37:36 <Joanne> Thanks. His proposal makes sense to me

Joanne Luciano: Thanks. His proposal makes sense to me ←

14:37:48 <MarkusK> Achille: yes, I would like some default mechanism that can be overwritten to specify alternative locations

Achille Fokoue: yes, I would like some default mechanism that can be overwritten to specify alternative locations [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:38:04 <MarkusK> Boris: I have two points.

Boris Motik: I have two points. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:38:15 <MarkusK> ... (1) how many ontologies are really on the Web?

Markus Krötzsch: ... (1) how many ontologies are really on the Web? ←

14:38:39 <MarkusK> ... (2) we should not specify in detail what tools are supposed to do when looking for ontologies

Markus Krötzsch: ... (2) we should not specify in detail what tools are supposed to do when looking for ontologies ←

14:38:43 <Achille> and the overwrite should be done outside the owl file

Achille Fokoue: and the overwrite should be done outside the owl file ←

14:39:18 <MarkusK> ... It would have been easier to leave tools some freedom for determining ontology locations, e.g. similar to CLASSPATH in Java

Markus Krötzsch: ... It would have been easier to leave tools some freedom for determining ontology locations, e.g. similar to CLASSPATH in Java ←

14:39:47 <MarkusK> Ian: Re (1) appliations may still refer to the web, but ontologies might stilll be local to some server

Ian Horrocks: Re (1) appliations may still refer to the web, but ontologies might stilll be local to some server [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:40:07 <Joanne> even if it's not "on the web" now, we need to support the case that the ontologies are on the web

Joanne Luciano: even if it's not "on the web" now, we need to support the case that the ontologies are on the web ←

14:40:15 <MarkusK> Boris: but aren't there also relevant uses of ontologies without any Web?

Boris Motik: but aren't there also relevant uses of ontologies without any Web? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:40:59 <MarkusK> Bijan: it is not out of scope to consider ontologies that are not on the web

Bijan Parsia: it is not out of scope to consider ontologies that are not on the web [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:41:11 <MarkusK> ... I am disagreeing with Alan.

Markus Krötzsch: ... I am disagreeing with Alan. ←

14:41:44 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aaaa ←

14:41:47 <MarkusK> ... I often created local copies of ontologies to modify them, while keeping internal names.

Markus Krötzsch: ... I often created local copies of ontologies to modify them, while keeping internal names. ←

14:42:15 <MarkusK> ... It shoud not happen that those modified copies then are deduced to be the same as the original one.

Markus Krötzsch: ... It shoud not happen that those modified copies then are deduced to be the same as the original one. ←

14:42:39 <MarkusK> ... I do not see what Alan's proposal buys us.

Markus Krötzsch: ... I do not see what Alan's proposal buys us. ←

14:43:21 <MarkusK> Ian: summing up, the problem could be that multiple (versions of) ontologies have the same name in their header, and those should not be considered the same.

Ian Horrocks: summing up, the problem could be that multiple (versions of) ontologies have the same name in their header, and those should not be considered the same. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:43:30 <MarkusK> Alan: this would only happen if both were imported.

Alan Ruttenberg: this would only happen if both were imported. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:44:06 <MarkusK> ... Considers, e.g. having three variants of one ontology:

Markus Krötzsch: ... Considers, e.g. having three variants of one ontology: ←

14:44:11 <MarkusK> ... B, B', B''

Markus Krötzsch: ... B, B', B'' ←

14:44:27 <MarkusK> ... depending on what you import you may get either

Markus Krötzsch: ... depending on what you import you may get either ←

14:44:43 <MarkusK> ... only if you import two at one time, these would be merged.

Markus Krötzsch: ... only if you import two at one time, these would be merged. ←

14:45:13 <MarkusK> Bijan: but didn't you say that locations and names then get equated (sameAs) on import. Why would this be good?

Bijan Parsia: but didn't you say that locations and names then get equated (sameAs) on import. Why would this be good? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:45:23 <Achille> q?

Achille Fokoue: q? ←

14:45:30 <Achille> q-

Achille Fokoue: q- ←

14:45:44 <MarkusK> Ian: these details should be discussed here, and the discussion must probably be taken offline at some point.

Ian Horrocks: these details should be discussed here, and the discussion must probably be taken offline at some point. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:45:56 <MarkusK> ... including clearly written-up proposals.

Markus Krötzsch: ... including clearly written-up proposals. ←

14:48:19 <bijan> Isn't this sent to the mailing list?

Bijan Parsia: Isn't this sent to the mailing list? ←

14:48:29 <MarkusK> Alan: responding to Jeremy saying that we should leave this to the caching mechanism. The reason that I would like to have "location punning" on names is that I would like to use different tools at one time.

Alan Ruttenberg: responding to Jeremy saying that we should leave this to the caching mechanism. The reason that I would like to have "location punning" on names is that I would like to use different tools at one time. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:48:52 <AlanR1> Alan Rector: Issues a) Scenarios please; b) if locations, need relative paths; c) relation between ontology name and base URI ("namespace")

Alan Ruttenberg: Alan Rector: Issues a) Scenarios please; b) if locations, need relative paths; c) relation between ontology name and base URI ("namespace") ←

14:50:13 <MarkusK> SebastianBrandt: I would like to partially agree with Boris: ontologies are often used offline to make money, but they still are developed online.

Scribe problem: the name 'SebastianBrandt' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown SebastianBrandt: I would like to partially agree with Boris: ontologies are often used offline to make money, but they still are developed online. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:50:18 <bmotik> Here is the part of the XML Schema specification about imports:

Boris Motik: Here is the part of the XML Schema specification about imports: ←

14:50:20 <bmotik> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-1/#composition-schemaImport

Boris Motik: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-1/#composition-schemaImport ←

14:51:19 <MarkusK> Matthew: when developing tools, we only found it reasonalbe to treat ontology URIs as names. Protege uses a lookup table to map onologies to local files.

Unknown Matthew: when developing tools, we only found it reasonalbe to treat ontology URIs as names. Protege uses a lookup table to map onologies to local files. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:51:43 <sandro> Bottom line:  is owl:imports like C #include (extended from filenames to URLs), or like java import (which needs classpath).

Sandro Hawke: Bottom line: is owl:imports like C #include (extended from filenames to URLs), or like java import (which needs classpath). ←

14:53:12 <MarkusK> ACTION: Bijan to extend the wiki with information on imports and restructuring it if needed (with Sebastian)

ACTION: Bijan to extend the wiki with information on imports and restructuring it if needed (with Sebastian) ←

14:53:12 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-36 - Extend the wiki with information on imports and restructuring it if needed (with Sebastian) [on Bijan Parsia - due 2007-12-13].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-36 - Extend the wiki with information on imports and restructuring it if needed (with Sebastian) [on Bijan Parsia - due 2007-12-13]. ←

14:53:41 <MarkusK> ACTION: Alan Ruttenberg to write up his proposal on dealing with imports

ACTION: Alan Ruttenberg to write up his proposal on dealing with imports ←

14:53:41 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-37 - Ruttenberg to write up his proposal on dealing with imports [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-12-13].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-37 - Ruttenberg to write up his proposal on dealing with imports [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-12-13]. ←

14:57:50 <MarkusK> pfps: basic ideas of rich annotations

Peter Patel-Schneider: basic ideas of rich annotations [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

14:57:52 <Joanne> couldn't understand what AlanR said in response to the potentially infiinte nesting of annotations

Joanne Luciano: couldn't understand what AlanR said in response to the potentially infiinte nesting of annotations ←

14:58:26 <MarkusK> ... allow arbitrary syntax as annotations, including annotations

Markus Krötzsch: ... allow arbitrary syntax as annotations, including annotations ←

14:58:58 <MarkusK> ... annotations separated into "spaces" and some spaces may indicate that tools must understand the respective annotations (for extensions)

Markus Krötzsch: ... annotations separated into "spaces" and some spaces may indicate that tools must understand the respective annotations (for extensions) ←

14:59:38 <MarkusK> (pfps presents syntax slide)

Markus Krötzsch: (pfps presents syntax slide) ←

15:00:24 <MarkusK> pfps: keywords mayIgnore and mustUnderstand describe whether or not annotations are essential for semantics

Peter Patel-Schneider: keywords mayIgnore and mustUnderstand describe whether or not annotations are essential for semantics [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:00:28 <Joanne> I don't understand what "space" means

Joanne Luciano: I don't understand what "space" means ←

15:00:44 <MarkusK> ... yes, annotations with "mustUnderstand" may change the semantics, also of existing constructs

Markus Krötzsch: ... yes, annotations with "mustUnderstand" may change the semantics, also of existing constructs ←

15:01:12 <MarkusK> ... Each annotation belongs to some "space", given as part of the annotation syntax.

Markus Krötzsch: ... Each annotation belongs to some "space", given as part of the annotation syntax. ←

15:01:21 <Joanne> is it a structuring of "the annotation space"

Joanne Luciano: is it a structuring of "the annotation space" ←

15:01:41 <MarkusK> ... There is a "default space" for annotations without explicit space annotations.

Markus Krötzsch: ... There is a "default space" for annotations without explicit space annotations. ←

15:02:30 <MarkusK> Bijan: the term "annotation" is ambiguous. In OWL1.0 it was something given to an annotationProperty. In OWL1.1 it can be any piece of syntax.

Bijan Parsia: the term "annotation" is ambiguous. In OWL1.0 it was something given to an annotationProperty. In OWL1.1 it can be any piece of syntax. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:02:52 <MarkusK> pfps: Annotations may even exist without relating to any OWL object.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Annotations may even exist without relating to any OWL object. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:03:49 <IanH_> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

15:04:14 <MarkusK> Alan: do the axioms of the containing ontology also belong to each annotation space?

Alan Ruttenberg: do the axioms of the containing ontology also belong to each annotation space? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:04:27 <MarkusK> Bijan: no, unless one would import it explicitly.

Bijan Parsia: no, unless one would import it explicitly. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:04:45 <MarkusK> Boris: I do not understand the idea of "annotation spaces"

Boris Motik: I do not understand the idea of "annotation spaces" [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:05:13 <MarkusK> pfps: this is because some annotations are semantic extensions, that should be keeped separate from other annotations.

Peter Patel-Schneider: this is because some annotations are semantic extensions, that should be keeped separate from other annotations. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:06:04 <MarkusK> SebastianBrandt: I have another use-case: I have some annotations that are just user documentations, some that contain "code" that is used by the application, and even some that are generated automatically by my applications.

Unknown SebastianBrandt: I have another use-case: I have some annotations that are just user documentations, some that contain "code" that is used by the application, and even some that are generated automatically by my applications. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:06:24 <MarkusK> Jeremy: we should have a worked example that illustrates this

Jeremy Carroll: we should have a worked example that illustrates this [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:06:56 <MarkusK> Bijan: the Pronto extension to OWL provides some example

Bijan Parsia: the Pronto extension to OWL provides some example [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:07:19 <MarkusK> ACTION: Bijan to improve examples for rich annotations.

ACTION: Bijan to improve examples for rich annotations. ←

15:07:19 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-42 - Improve examples for rich annotations. [on Bijan Parsia - due 2007-12-13].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-42 - Improve examples for rich annotations. [on Bijan Parsia - due 2007-12-13]. ←

15:08:11 <MarkusK> Boris: it would also be useful if someone could explain in detail how to use this mechanism, starting from ontology creation up to external reuse.

Boris Motik: it would also be useful if someone could explain in detail how to use this mechanism, starting from ontology creation up to external reuse. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:08:24 <MarkusK> Bijan: I can do that after coffee

Bijan Parsia: I can do that after coffee [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:09:20 <Joanne> Bijan, count me in to your coffee break explaination

Joanne Luciano: Bijan, count me in to your coffee break explaination ←

15:09:43 <MarkusK> Alan: is there going to be an RDF serialisation to this?

Alan Ruttenberg: is there going to be an RDF serialisation to this? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:09:48 <MarkusK> Bijan: yes

Bijan Parsia: yes [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:10:07 <MarkusK> Alan: do annotations then distribute over differnt files?

Alan Ruttenberg: do annotations then distribute over differnt files? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:10:37 <MarkusK> Bijan: no, we can use reification to add extra annotation-space information

Bijan Parsia: no, we can use reification to add extra annotation-space information [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:10:45 <MarkusK> .. but there are many possibilities

Markus Krötzsch: .. but there are many possibilities ←

15:10:52 <MarkusK> s /../.../

Markus Krötzsch: s /../.../ ←

15:11:13 <MarkusK> pfps: I think the idea of annotation spaces changing the semantics of OWL is what is most controversial

Peter Patel-Schneider: I think the idea of annotation spaces changing the semantics of OWL is what is most controversial [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:12:01 <MarkusK> Bijan: semantic annotation spaces need to have a spec, e.g. to include RIF rules into OWL documents.

Bijan Parsia: semantic annotation spaces need to have a spec, e.g. to include RIF rules into OWL documents. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:12:14 <MarkusK> ... this spec then defines the intended semantics.

Markus Krötzsch: ... this spec then defines the intended semantics. ←

15:12:31 <MarkusK> ... The annotation space has a URI that may specify this semantics.

Markus Krötzsch: ... The annotation space has a URI that may specify this semantics. ←

15:13:30 <MarkusK> pfps: annotations usually have no semantics, exceptions being the mustUnderstand annotations that must be taken into account by tools in an adequate way.

Peter Patel-Schneider: annotations usually have no semantics, exceptions being the mustUnderstand annotations that must be taken into account by tools in an adequate way. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:14:03 <MarkusK> Ian: we did only talk about rich annotations, but not about the other OWL1.1 extensions to the OWL1.0 mechanism.

Ian Horrocks: we did only talk about rich annotations, but not about the other OWL1.1 extensions to the OWL1.0 mechanism. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:14:14 <MarkusK> .. this should also be discussed.

Markus Krötzsch: .. this should also be discussed. ←

15:14:20 <MarkusK> s /../.../

Markus Krötzsch: s /../.../ ←

15:14:33 <MarkusK> pfps: we can do that in the compatibility session tomorrow.

Peter Patel-Schneider: we can do that in the compatibility session tomorrow. [ Scribe Assist by Markus Krötzsch ] ←

15:14:41 <MarkusK> Coffee break.

Markus Krötzsch: Coffee break. ←

15:15:29 <Joanne> testing audio.... can someone check that you can hear me? I want to hear Bijan's explaination

Joanne Luciano: testing audio.... can someone check that you can hear me? I want to hear Bijan's explaination ←

15:41:30 <dlm> test

(No events recorded for 26 minutes)

Deborah McGuinness: test ←

15:43:19 <dlm> Thanks expressed to the Knowledge Web project for the dinner we are about to enjoy

Deborah McGuinness: Thanks expressed to the Knowledge Web project for the dinner we are about to enjoy ←

15:43:31 <dlm> Bijan about to present

Deborah McGuinness: Bijan about to present ←

15:43:56 <dlm> bijan will email his slides after presenting

Deborah McGuinness: bijan will email his slides after presenting ←

15:44:22 <dlm> Bijan will present 2 prior uses

Deborah McGuinness: Bijan will present 2 prior uses ←

15:44:23 <sandro> +Jeff_Pan

Sandro Hawke: +Jeff_Pan ←

15:44:29 <sandro> zakim, this is owl

Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is owl ←

15:44:29 <Zakim> sandro, this was already SW_OWL(F2F)6:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, this was already SW_OWL(F2F)6:00AM ←

15:44:31 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_OWL(F2F)6:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_OWL(F2F)6:00AM ←

15:44:35 <sandro> +Jeff_Pan

Sandro Hawke: +Jeff_Pan ←

15:44:40 <dlm> He is using one annotation space

Deborah McGuinness: He is using one annotation space ←

15:45:10 <dlm> one annotation blob includes who is responsible for the annotaiton (in this case self)

Deborah McGuinness: one annotation blob includes who is responsible for the annotaiton (in this case self) ←

15:45:27 <dlm> and sally checked it  (thus showing structured annotations with reference to self)

Deborah McGuinness: and sally checked it (thus showing structured annotations with reference to self) ←

15:45:55 <dlm> namespaces at top

Deborah McGuinness: namespaces at top ←

15:46:04 <dlm> ontology header next

Deborah McGuinness: ontology header next ←

15:47:47 <dlm> ontology uri, followed by comment (which expands to an rdfs comment)

Deborah McGuinness: ontology uri, followed by comment (which expands to an rdfs comment) ←

15:49:33 <IanH_> Two files:

Ian Horrocks: Two files: ←

15:49:36 <IanH_> http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~horrocks/prontoExample.owlfs

Ian Horrocks: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~horrocks/prontoExample.owlfs ←

15:50:24 <IanH_> http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~horrocks/ontoClean.owlfs

Ian Horrocks: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~horrocks/ontoClean.owlfs ←

15:50:27 <dlm> followed by 2 namespace declarations

Deborah McGuinness: followed by 2 namespace declarations ←

15:51:19 <dlm> going down to womanaged50Plus

Deborah McGuinness: going down to womanaged50Plus ←

15:55:21 <dlm> womanAged50Plus is a subclass of WomanWithBRCInShortTErm with certainty between .027 and .041

Deborah McGuinness: womanAged50Plus is a subclass of WomanWithBRCInShortTErm with certainty between .027 and .041 ←

15:55:33 <dlm> would be ignored if reasoner did not understand pronto

Deborah McGuinness: would be ignored if reasoner did not understand pronto ←

15:55:39 <Joanne> can someone repeat how to read the certainty "0.027;0.041"?

Joanne Luciano: can someone repeat how to read the certainty "0.027;0.041"? ←

15:56:00 <dlm> certainty between .027 and .041

Deborah McGuinness: certainty between .027 and .041 ←

15:57:20 <dlm> ? annotation and must understand would allow you to embed sbml into the document (from alan)

Deborah McGuinness: ? annotation and must understand would allow you to embed sbml into the document (from alan) ←

15:57:36 <Joanne> I thought I just said that?

Joanne Luciano: I thought I just said that? ←

15:57:52 <dlm> yes - sorry alan confirmed

Deborah McGuinness: yes - sorry alan confirmed ←

15:58:32 <dlm> boris - how should one encode constraints into an ontology?

Deborah McGuinness: boris - how should one encode constraints into an ontology? ←

15:58:35 <dlm> this could be a way

Deborah McGuinness: this could be a way ←

15:59:23 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←

15:59:34 <dlm> bijan notes ontoclean and pronto are working

Deborah McGuinness: bijan notes ontoclean and pronto are working ←

16:02:15 <dlm> alan r - we need rich linguistic representations for some applications

Deborah McGuinness: alan r - we need rich linguistic representations for some applications ←

16:02:29 <dlm> alan r - we need rich structure

Deborah McGuinness: alan r - we need rich structure ←

16:03:21 <dlm> alan r - a lot of information is provenance knowledge, its structure and how it was put together which is important for passing around between tools

Deborah McGuinness: alan r - a lot of information is provenance knowledge, its structure and how it was put together which is important for passing around between tools ←

16:03:57 <dlm> alan r - this is also a way of providing one type of representation and projecting it into an alternative representation

Deborah McGuinness: alan r - this is also a way of providing one type of representation and projecting it into an alternative representation ←

16:05:00 <dlm> alan r - want to take a model in owl and export it in another syntax

Deborah McGuinness: alan r - want to take a model in owl and export it in another syntax ←

16:05:58 <dlm> bijan - part of this "must understand" is a retrofit

Deborah McGuinness: bijan - part of this "must understand" is a retrofit ←

16:06:46 <dlm> sandro - must understand may be a reasonable option but there may be other options as well

Deborah McGuinness: sandro - must understand may be a reasonable option but there may be other options as well ←

16:07:16 <dlm> what if someone wanted to put in rif rules?

Deborah McGuinness: what if someone wanted to put in rif rules? ←

16:07:41 <sandro> Sandro: If every axiom had a URI, you could just use RDF (or OWL, or RIF)

Sandro Hawke: If every axiom had a URI, you could just use RDF (or OWL, or RIF) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:07:45 <dlm> one way you could interact with this is to make applications aware of the spaces

Deborah McGuinness: one way you could interact with this is to make applications aware of the spaces ←

16:07:51 <sandro> Bijan: yes

Bijan Parsia: yes [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:07:59 <dlm> ian - question to sandro - what are possibly better engineering solutions?

Deborah McGuinness: ian - question to sandro - what are possibly better engineering solutions? ←

16:08:05 <dlm> sandro - ummm

Deborah McGuinness: sandro - ummm ←

16:09:11 <dlm> sandro - extend the syntax

Deborah McGuinness: sandro - extend the syntax ←

16:09:31 <dlm> alan - this may lead to many different extensions ... maybe this is "too easy"

Deborah McGuinness: alan - this may lead to many different extensions ... maybe this is "too easy" ←

16:10:08 <dlm> jeremy - generally amused by mustunderstand that may be ignored

Deborah McGuinness: jeremy - generally amused by mustunderstand that may be ignored ←

16:10:27 <dlm> jeremy - concerning named graphs... what about serialization

Deborah McGuinness: jeremy - concerning named graphs... what about serialization ←

16:10:34 <dlm> into rdfxml

Deborah McGuinness: into rdfxml ←

16:11:04 <sandro> Bijan: you could reify, use literals, use separate documnets, etc ---- lots of ways to put named graphs in

Bijan Parsia: you could reify, use literals, use separate documnets, etc ---- lots of ways to put named graphs in [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:11:17 <dlm> jeff - mustunderstand is a nice idea to allow users to specify intended semantics...

Deborah McGuinness: jeff - mustunderstand is a nice idea to allow users to specify intended semantics... ←

16:12:14 <Zakim> +Vipul_Kashyap

Zakim IRC Bot: +Vipul_Kashyap ←

16:12:22 <dlm> alan  - is it the case that a mustunderstand on anything, then reasoners may not understand the semantics

Deborah McGuinness: alan - is it the case that a mustunderstand on anything, then reasoners may not understand the semantics ←

16:13:59 <dlm> alan r  - lets consider motivations

Deborah McGuinness: alan r - lets consider motivations ←

16:14:27 <dlm> 1: one wants to use editing tools

Scribe problem: the name '1' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Zhe Wu Alan Ruttenberg Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Rinke Hoekstra James Hendler Boris Motik Vipul Kashyap Vassilis Tzouvaras Suzette Stoutenburg Evan Wallace Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Elisa Kendall Jeremy Carroll Giorgos Stamou Achille Fokoue Anne Cregan Fabian Neuhaus Peter Patel-Schneider Bijan Parsia Steve Battle Jeff Pan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Sandro Hawke Vojtech Svatek Joanne Luciano Doug Lenat Fabien Gandon Evren Sirin Trackbot IRC Bot Peter Haase Vit Novacek Enrico Franconi Zakim IRC Bot Ivan Herman RRSAgent IRC Bot Michael Smith Deborah McGuinness Olivier Corby Tommie Meyer Ratnesh Sahay Conrad Bock Markus Krötzsch Pascal Hitzler Giorgos Stoilos . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown 1: one wants to use editing tools [ Scribe Assist by Deborah McGuinness ] ←

16:15:09 <Vipul> Cool!

Vipul Kashyap: Cool! ←

16:15:14 <Vipul> I just had coffee myself

Vipul Kashyap: I just had coffee myself ←

16:15:30 <Vipul> yes ... Got slides from evan

Vipul Kashyap: yes ... Got slides from evan ←

16:16:08 <dlm> sandro:  suggest people give feedback to bijan on the general scheme

Sandro Hawke: suggest people give feedback to bijan on the general scheme [ Scribe Assist by Deborah McGuinness ] ←

16:16:54 <dlm> Ivan: aestetic comment - word annotation is more what alan r was describing

Ivan Herman: aestetic comment - word annotation is more what alan r was describing [ Scribe Assist by Deborah McGuinness ] ←

16:17:14 <dlm> Ivan: mustunderstand is not an annotation

Ivan Herman: mustunderstand is not an annotation [ Scribe Assist by Deborah McGuinness ] ←

16:18:04 <Jeremy> Ivan didn't understand mustUnderstand ?!

Jeremy Carroll: Ivan didn't understand mustUnderstand ?! ←

16:18:40 <Joanne> It's reminds me of C++ (?) preprocessing if I"m remembering correctly

Joanne Luciano: It's reminds me of C++ (?) preprocessing if I"m remembering correctly ←

16:18:48 <dlm> Sebastian: any tool that finds something strange could just say I do not know what to do with it... he likes the structure

Unknown Sebastian: any tool that finds something strange could just say I do not know what to do with it... he likes the structure [ Scribe Assist by Deborah McGuinness ] ←

16:19:23 <Jeremy> The C preprocessor is, in many ways, too powerful ... give them enough rope ...

Jeremy Carroll: The C preprocessor is, in many ways, too powerful ... give them enough rope ... ←

16:19:25 <dlm> Boris: useful to group certain types of properties into annotation or extension.... not sure that this should be in the ontology.

Boris Motik: useful to group certain types of properties into annotation or extension.... not sure that this should be in the ontology. [ Scribe Assist by Deborah McGuinness ] ←

16:20:27 <dlm> Boris:  this may be worthy of putting in a separate document

Boris Motik: this may be worthy of putting in a separate document [ Scribe Assist by Deborah McGuinness ] ←

16:20:54 <dlm> about to move on to user facing documents (and hoping for test discussion to come)

Deborah McGuinness: about to move on to user facing documents (and hoping for test discussion to come) ←

16:21:31 <dlm> ian - rich annotation mechanism but without notion of mustunderstand

Deborah McGuinness: ian - rich annotation mechanism but without notion of mustunderstand ←

16:21:37 <dlm> most people agree a good idea

Deborah McGuinness: most people agree a good idea ←

16:21:52 <Achille> +1 good idea

Achille Fokoue: +1 good idea ←

16:22:00 <Joanne> +1 good idea

Joanne Luciano: +1 good idea ←

16:22:04 <dlm> (jeremy objecting and, steve battelle abstained

Deborah McGuinness: (jeremy objecting and, steve battelle abstained ←

16:22:22 <dlm> that was for the general mechanism without semantics

Deborah McGuinness: that was for the general mechanism without semantics ←

16:22:27 <sandro> Jeremy is the only person not generally supportive of a rich annotation mechanism (ignore MustUnderstand issue)

Sandro Hawke: Jeremy is the only person not generally supportive of a rich annotation mechanism (ignore MustUnderstand issue) ←

16:22:34 <dlm> now general idea with flagging semantic intention

Deborah McGuinness: now general idea with flagging semantic intention ←

16:22:37 <Achille> +1 good idea

Achille Fokoue: +1 good idea ←

16:22:50 <dlm> good - 13

Deborah McGuinness: good - 13 ←

16:22:50 <Joanne> +1 good idea

Joanne Luciano: +1 good idea ←

16:23:04 <dlm> count good increased to 14 includes joanne

Deborah McGuinness: count good increased to 14 includes joanne ←

16:23:09 <Joanne> :-)

Joanne Luciano: :-) ←

16:23:59 <dlm> discussion about what the vote was...

Deborah McGuinness: discussion about what the vote was... ←

16:24:34 <dlm> some kind of decorating mechanism of the existing syntax that would indicate a semantic change

Deborah McGuinness: some kind of decorating mechanism of the existing syntax that would indicate a semantic change ←

16:24:36 <sandro> PROPOSED: decoration of existing syntax as a way to make a syntactic change

PROPOSED: decoration of existing syntax as a way to make a syntactic change ←

16:24:44 <dlm> revoting:

Scribe problem: the name 'revoting' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown revoting: [ Scribe Assist by Deborah McGuinness ] ←

16:24:45 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1 ←

16:25:06 <Joanne> +1

Joanne Luciano: +1 ←

16:25:54 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1 ←

16:25:56 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1 ←

16:25:57 <Joanne> +1

Joanne Luciano: +1 ←

16:26:00 <sandro> rerun -- not counting observers....

Sandro Hawke: rerun -- not counting observers.... ←

16:26:12 <dlm> in favor  14 (including the 3 remote participants)

Deborah McGuinness: in favor 14 (including the 3 remote participants) ←

16:26:58 <dlm> against - pfps, sandro, alan - 3 total

Deborah McGuinness: against - pfps, sandro, alan - 3 total ←

16:27:01 <dlm> abstain - hp

Deborah McGuinness: abstain - hp ←

16:27:48 <dlm> we could consider adding a swrl extension syntax to this proposal

Deborah McGuinness: we could consider adding a swrl extension syntax to this proposal ←

16:27:54 <dlm> alan - this may be out of scope

Deborah McGuinness: alan - this may be out of scope ←

16:28:06 <Joanne> Please note - I have to get on another conf call at 1630; I will monitor the call, but announce loudly if you move to Testing. I want to participate in that discussion if possible.

Joanne Luciano: Please note - I have to get on another conf call at 1630; I will monitor the call, but announce loudly if you move to Testing. I want to participate in that discussion if possible. ←

16:28:50 <Joanne> Monitor via the chat - need the phone for th eother conf call.

Joanne Luciano: Monitor via the chat - need the phone for th eother conf call. ←

16:29:01 <sandro> Add a hook for user-defined extensions.

Boris Motik: Add a hook for user-defined extensions. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:29:08 <sandro> s/Add/Boris: Add/

16:29:16 <Achille> q?

Achille Fokoue: q? ←

16:29:35 <dlm> feedback that it is reasonable to continue developing this

Deborah McGuinness: feedback that it is reasonable to continue developing this ←

16:30:10 <Zakim> -Joanne_Luciano

Zakim IRC Bot: -Joanne_Luciano ←

16:30:19 <Joanne> still on chat though!

Joanne Luciano: still on chat though! ←

16:30:31 <sandro> Alan: What worries me is that you can have an OWL document that doesn't look like an OWL document.

Alan Ruttenberg: What worries me is that you can have an OWL document that doesn't look like an OWL document. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:32:58 <Jeremy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Dec/att-0080/UFDTF_overview2.pdf

Jeremy Carroll: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Dec/att-0080/UFDTF_overview2.pdf ←

16:34:15 <sandro> scribenick: GiorgosStoilos

(Scribe set to Giorgos Stoilos)

16:34:36 <sandro> Topic: User Facing Documents

7. User Facing Documents

16:34:37 <GiorgosStoilos> Even wallace is presenting the status of User Facing Documents

Evan Wallace is presenting the status of User Facing Documents ←

16:34:57 <GiorgosStoilos> s/Even wallace/ Evan Wallace

16:35:22 <GiorgosStoilos> ...documents that will help users into owl 1.1

...documents that will help users into owl 1.1 ←

16:35:40 <GiorgosStoilos> ...like guide, overview, reference

...like guide, overview, reference ←

16:36:00 <GiorgosStoilos> evan: work mainly volunteered

Evan Wallace: work mainly volunteered ←

16:36:55 <GiorgosStoilos> ...should these documents be produced as part of the spec?

...should these documents be produced as part of the spec? ←

16:38:04 <GiorgosStoilos> ...what syntax to use for the examples, different users have different preferences...DL syntax

...what syntax to use for the examples, different users have different preferences...DL syntax ←

16:38:19 <GiorgosStoilos> ...abstract syntax, etc

...abstract syntax, etc ←

16:39:18 <GiorgosStoilos> evan: e.g. some docs use the DL side, while others use, like the Reference use a Semantic Web side (meaning RDF)

Evan Wallace: e.g. some docs use the DL side, while others use, like the Reference use a Semantic Web side (meaning RDF) ←

16:39:49 <GiorgosStoilos> no much progress has been done

no much progress has been done ←

16:41:47 <uli2> My (unfinished) tutorial with multiple syntaxes inline: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~bparsia/2007/owltutorial/

Uli Sattler: My (unfinished) tutorial with multiple syntaxes inline: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~bparsia/2007/owltutorial/ ←

16:42:03 <GiorgosStoilos> preference in producing an overview doc that is between OWL 1.1 overview and OWL overview

preference in producing an overview doc that is between OWL 1.1 overview and OWL overview ←

16:42:07 <sandro> Sandro: (rather contovercially) I hope the Semantic Web survives RDF.     [ That is, the goals of Semantic Web are important.  RDF may not be the best way to meet those goals.   I hope those goals are met, even if it mean moving beyond RDF. ]

Sandro Hawke: (rather contovercially) I hope the Semantic Web survives RDF. [ That is, the goals of Semantic Web are important. RDF may not be the best way to meet those goals. I hope those goals are met, even if it mean moving beyond RDF. ] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:44:00 <dlm> looking at the overview for 1.0, http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-features/

Deborah McGuinness: looking at the overview for 1.0, http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-features/ ←

16:44:01 <GiorgosStoilos> bijan: is working in a way to choose to preview an example in the syntax of your choice

Bijan Parsia: is working in a way to choose to preview an example in the syntax of your choice ←

16:44:18 <dlm> that overview suggestion might be drop section 1, and drop it from organizing section 2

Deborah McGuinness: that overview suggestion might be drop section 1, and drop it from organizing section 2 ←

16:45:05 <GiorgosStoilos> deb: looked in OWL 1.1 overview

Deborah McGuinness: looked in OWL 1.1 overview ←

16:45:47 <GiorgosStoilos> jeremy: a question is how much of the old docs we will use or start new ones

Jeremy Carroll: a question is how much of the old docs we will use or start new ones ←

16:47:20 <dlm> my comments were on starting from owl 1.0 overview

Deborah McGuinness: my comments were on starting from owl 1.0 overview ←

16:47:38 <dlm> (and integrating in the owl 1.1 overview diff info)

Deborah McGuinness: (and integrating in the owl 1.1 overview diff info) ←

16:47:40 <GiorgosStoilos> jeremy: do we want to extend the owl1.0 docs?

Jeremy Carroll: do we want to extend the owl1.0 docs? ←

16:48:34 <GiorgosStoilos> bijan: oposes to extending the owl 1.0 docs. Finds them confusing

Bijan Parsia: oposes to extending the owl 1.0 docs. Finds them confusing ←

16:49:16 <GiorgosStoilos> ...don't thinks that good "tutorials" could be written within the WG

...don't thinks that good "tutorials" could be written within the WG ←

16:50:30 <GiorgosStoilos> bijan: if people want to go forward then he proposes something like RDF Primer

Bijan Parsia: if people want to go forward then he proposes something like RDF Primer ←

16:51:16 <GiorgosStoilos> ian: thinks that an entry doc is very important and usefull

Ian Horrocks: thinks that an entry doc is very important and usefull ←

16:51:28 <GiorgosStoilos> bijan: what about the homepage?

Bijan Parsia: what about the homepage? ←

16:51:50 <GiorgosStoilos> ...contains motivation, intro, etc

...contains motivation, intro, etc ←

16:53:14 <GiorgosStoilos> mikeSmith: homepage could also be improved to serve as a better intro doc

Michael Smith: homepage could also be improved to serve as a better intro doc ←

16:53:43 <Vipul> q+

Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←

16:54:19 <Zhe> i'd like to see a doc with a complete list of new vocabularies and pointers to examples and semantics

Zhe Wu: i'd like to see a doc with a complete list of new vocabularies and pointers to examples and semantics ←

16:54:47 <GiorgosStoilos> alanRut: people are not learning OWL from the docs. Use them as refs rather than intros

Alan Ruttenberg: people are not learning OWL from the docs. Use them as refs rather than intros ←

16:55:38 <Joanne> It would be good to take a poll (if one's not been already) to see objectively how people are learning OWL.

Joanne Luciano: It would be good to take a poll (if one's not been already) to see objectively how people are learning OWL. ←

16:55:48 <GiorgosStoilos> bijan: exaplain some problems related to w3c for updating the docs

Bijan Parsia: exaplain some problems related to w3c for updating the docs ←

16:56:08 <Jeremy> bijan: proposes changing license on old OWL 1.0 UFD to allow derivatives

Bijan Parsia: proposes changing license on old OWL 1.0 UFD to allow derivatives [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

16:56:39 <Vipul> q

Vipul Kashyap: q ←

16:56:58 <Jeremy> bijan: this would allow (not this WG) to support the old docs (i.e. publish new versions outside this space)

Bijan Parsia: this would allow (not this WG) to support the old docs (i.e. publish new versions outside this space) [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

16:57:09 <sandro> Vipul, the chairs knows you want to talk, now.

Sandro Hawke: Vipul, the chairs knows you want to talk, now. ←

16:57:18 <Vipul> thanks

Vipul Kashyap: thanks ←

16:59:05 <GiorgosStoilos> vipul: agrees with alan rut

Vipul Kashyap: agrees with alan rut ←

16:59:44 <Jeremy> vipul: would like to have domain specific examples

Vipul Kashyap: would like to have domain specific examples [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

17:00:03 <Jeremy> vipul: how do we decide what goes where W3C or outside?

Vipul Kashyap: how do we decide what goes where W3C or outside? [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

17:00:23 <GiorgosStoilos> bernardo: agrees with bijan. Why does educational material go to rec?

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: agrees with bijan. Why does educational material go to rec? ←

17:01:16 <GiorgosStoilos> uli: what about updating old docs with links to new matterial

Uli Sattler: what about updating old docs with links to new matterial ←

17:01:46 <GiorgosStoilos> deb: don't see how this could be done

Deborah McGuinness: don't see how this could be done ←

17:01:56 <GiorgosStoilos> sandro: explains a way

Sandro Hawke: explains a way ←

17:02:20 <Vipul> Why not?

Vipul Kashyap: Why not? ←

17:02:46 <Vipul> I mean why should educational material/use cases/requirements not be part of the rec track?

Vipul Kashyap: I mean why should educational material/use cases/requirements not be part of the rec track? ←

17:03:00 <Vipul> I would like some clear guidance and criteria from W3C

Vipul Kashyap: I would like some clear guidance and criteria from W3C ←

17:06:49 <Vipul> Just forwarded Michel Dumontier's response to the OWL WG mailing list

Vipul Kashyap: Just forwarded Michel Dumontier's response to the OWL WG mailing list ←

17:06:55 <GiorgosStoilos> alanRut: asks for a clarification on sandros example

Alan Ruttenberg: asks for a clarification on sandros example ←

17:07:22 <pascalhitzler> Jeremy: RecTrack document means that author gets acknowledgement as W3C Document author, which in turn should mean more commitment towards the work.

Jeremy Carroll: RecTrack document means that author gets acknowledgement as W3C Document author, which in turn should mean more commitment towards the work. [ Scribe Assist by Pascal Hitzler ] ←

17:08:22 <bijan> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+ ←

17:09:03 <dlm> +1

Deborah McGuinness: +1 ←

17:09:10 <GiorgosStoilos> evan: a plain language doc that could be used by non-experts is very good

Evan Wallace: a plain language doc that could be used by non-experts is very good ←

17:09:13 <Vipul> Jeremy's response is "content independent"

Vipul Kashyap: Jeremy's response is "content independent" ←

17:09:47 <Vipul> Doesn't help me decide either way

Vipul Kashyap: Doesn't help me decide either way ←

17:11:41 <ivan> ack Vipul

Ivan Herman: ack Vipul ←

17:11:41 <ivan> ack bijan

Ivan Herman: ack bijan ←

17:12:43 <GiorgosStoilos> bijan: I am not highly against rectrack docs but more in favour for notes

Bijan Parsia: I am not highly against rectrack docs but more in favour for notes ←

17:13:25 <GiorgosStoilos> ian: put the rectrack non-rectrack aside and think about the docs

Ian Horrocks: put the rectrack non-rectrack aside and think about the docs ←

17:14:17 <GiorgosStoilos> ian: it seems from today that overall docs are not very good

Ian Horrocks: it seems from today that overall docs are not very good ←

17:16:00 <GiorgosStoilos> ian: come again to the question whether starting fresh docs or extending old ones

Ian Horrocks: come again to the question whether starting fresh docs or extending old ones ←

17:17:08 <GiorgosStoilos> ivan: has found guide docs of various groups very helpfull, like XML schema

Ivan Herman: has found guide docs of various groups very helpfull, like XML schema ←

17:17:12 <Zakim> +jim

Zakim IRC Bot: +jim ←

17:17:55 <GiorgosStoilos> ivan: if these docs have the blessing of the group then this is much better

Ivan Herman: if these docs have the blessing of the group then this is much better ←

17:18:35 <GiorgosStoilos> ....producing similar docs for the community would be good

....producing similar docs for the community would be good ←

17:19:17 <GiorgosStoilos> alanrut: do we agree that we need a reference doc

Alan Ruttenberg: do we agree that we need a reference doc ←

17:19:37 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1 ←

17:21:11 <Uli> ivan, if they are notes, they will still have the blessing of the WG?

Uli Sattler: ivan, if they are notes, they will still have the blessing of the WG? ←

17:22:05 <GiorgosStoilos> deb: because there are problems with existing ones does not mean we have to start with new ones

Deborah McGuinness: because there are problems with existing ones does not mean we have to start with new ones ←

17:23:52 <GiorgosStoilos> bijan: proposes a fresh "prime" doc as a replacement of overview and guide

Bijan Parsia: proposes a fresh "prime" doc as a replacement of overview and guide ←

17:24:57 <sandro> PROPOSED: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Overview' and 'Guide', we'll publish a new 'Primer' (written largely from scratch).

PROPOSED: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Overview' and 'Guide', we'll publish a new 'Primer' (written largely from scratch). ←

17:25:41 <Joanne> +1 I like the primer idea

Joanne Luciano: +1 I like the primer idea ←

17:26:18 <Joanne> How do we evaluate what we do (in general)?

Joanne Luciano: How do we evaluate what we do (in general)? ←

17:27:02 <GiorgosStoilos> jim: asks about where the specification of OWL Full would go. Does not see it in OWL 1.1. functional syntax

Scribe problem: the name 'jim' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jim: asks about where the specification of OWL Full would go. Does not see it in OWL 1.1. functional syntax ←

17:28:37 <GiorgosStoilos> jeremy: agrees with jim. It would be helpfull to have a doc which explains to non-experts features of owl full

Jeremy Carroll: agrees with jim. It would be helpfull to have a doc which explains to non-experts features of owl full ←

17:31:31 <Evan> test

Evan Wallace: test ←

17:31:34 <g-stoilos> jim: gives an example of inverseFunctional DatatypeProperties

Scribe problem: the name 'g-stoilos' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown jim: gives an example of inverseFunctional DatatypeProperties [ Scribe Assist by Unknown g-stoilos ] ←

17:31:42 <Jeremy> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#InverseFunctionalProperty-def

Jeremy Carroll: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#InverseFunctionalProperty-def ←

17:32:00 <Jeremy> jim's question is where would such text go if we do not have a document like OWL Reference

Jeremy Carroll: jim's question is where would such text go if we do not have a document like OWL Reference ←

17:32:24 <Jeremy> particularly:

Scribe problem: the name 'particularly' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown particularly: [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

17:32:26 <Jeremy> NOTE: Because in OWL Full datatype properties are a subclass of object properties, an inverse-functional property can be defined for datatype properties. In OWL DL object properties and datatype properties are disjoint, so an inverse-functional property cannot be defined for datatype properties. See also Sec. 8.1 and Sec. 8.2.

Scribe problem: the name 'NOTE' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown NOTE: Because in OWL Full datatype properties are a subclass of object properties, an inverse-functional property can be defined for datatype properties. In OWL DL object properties and datatype properties are disjoint, so an inverse-functional property cannot be defined for datatype properties. See also Sec. 8.1 and Sec. 8.2. [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←

17:33:54 <g-stoilos> ian: maybe we will decide to have such a documents (like the reference)

Ian Horrocks: maybe we will decide to have such a documents (like the reference) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown g-stoilos ] ←

17:34:54 <GiorgosStoilos> bijan: functional syntax must not change since it is the formal specification

Bijan Parsia: functional syntax must not change since it is the formal specification ←

17:35:07 <sandro> PROPOSED: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Overview' and 'Guide', we'll publish a new 'Primer' (written largely from scratch).

PROPOSED: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Overview' and 'Guide', we'll publish a new 'Primer' (written largely from scratch). ←

17:35:55 <Jeremy> To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Overview' we'll work from OWL OVerview 1.0

Jeremy Carroll: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Overview' we'll work from OWL OVerview 1.0 ←

17:35:56 <Achille> 0

Achille Fokoue: 0 ←

17:36:59 <Jeremy> To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of  'Guide', we'll publish a new 'Guide'

Jeremy Carroll: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Guide', we'll publish a new 'Guide' ←

17:37:19 <Vipul> q+

Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←

17:37:34 <Jeremy> To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Guide', we'll work from OWL Guide 1.0

Jeremy Carroll: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Guide', we'll work from OWL Guide 1.0 ←

17:37:39 <Vipul> I need a clarification

Vipul Kashyap: I need a clarification ←

17:37:42 <Vipul> Hello!

Vipul Kashyap: Hello! ←

17:38:43 <hendler> (can each of the things we are being asked to strawpole on be put up one at a time? - and I cannot see IRC from before joining, of course)

James Hendler: (can each of the things we are being asked to strawpole on be put up one at a time? - and I cannot see IRC from before joining, of course) ←

17:39:03 <Vipul> Perhaps working towards a document set like:

Vipul Kashyap: Perhaps working towards a document set like: ←

17:39:16 <Vipul> An introductory document between OWL 1.1 Overview and OWL Overview from Rec. (without the species of OWL emphasis)

Vipul Kashyap: An introductory document between OWL 1.1 Overview and OWL Overview from Rec. (without the species of OWL emphasis) ←

17:39:26 <Vipul> A document intended as a language reference written in plain english

Vipul Kashyap: A document intended as a language reference written in plain english ←

17:39:28 <sandro> PROPOSED-1: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Overview' and 'Guide', we'll publish a new 'Primer' (written largely from scratch).

Scribe problem: the name 'PROPOSED-1' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown PROPOSED-1: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Overview' and 'Guide', we'll publish a new 'Primer' (written largely from scratch). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:39:38 <Vipul> Requirements with traceability

Vipul Kashyap: Requirements with traceability ←

17:39:54 <sandro> PROPOSED-2: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Overview' we'll work from OWL OVerview 1.0

Scribe problem: the name 'PROPOSED-2' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown PROPOSED-2: To meet our charter deliverable of covering the intent of 'Overview' we'll work from OWL OVerview 1.0 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:40:54 <Jeremy> no not really (to jim)

Jeremy Carroll: no not really (to jim) ←

17:41:00 <GiorgosStoilos> pfps: Aparently we should have 3 proposals: i) old docs, ii) fresh docs iii) prime proposal (bijan's)

Peter Patel-Schneider: Aparently we should have 3 proposals: i) old docs, ii) fresh docs iii) prime proposal (bijan's) ←

17:41:21 <hendler> wish I'd joined call earlier - incremental seems a lot less work than starting from scratch

James Hendler: wish I'd joined call earlier - incremental seems a lot less work than starting from scratch ←

17:42:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: Refresh the old documents (otherwise, start mostly from scratch).

PROPOSED: Refresh the old documents (otherwise, start mostly from scratch). ←

17:42:25 <GiorgosStoilos> straw poll: YES=refresh docs NO=start new ones.

straw poll: YES=refresh docs NO=start new ones. ←

17:42:50 <hendler> but no way to say yes to some docs and no to others?  shouldn't we do this doc by doc?

James Hendler: but no way to say yes to some docs and no to others? shouldn't we do this doc by doc? ←

17:43:43 <Zakim> +Joanne_Luciano

Zakim IRC Bot: +Joanne_Luciano ←

17:44:06 <GiorgosStoilos> ian: lets go doc by doc

Ian Horrocks: lets go doc by doc ←

17:44:20 <Vipul> Forwarded Christine's response to the OWL WG

Vipul Kashyap: Forwarded Christine's response to the OWL WG ←

17:45:09 <GiorgosStoilos> straw poll on =overview=

straw poll on =overview= ←

17:45:14 <hendler> overview = YES

James Hendler: overview = YES ←

17:45:15 <sandro> PROPOSED: 'Overview' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL Overview

PROPOSED: 'Overview' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL Overview ←

17:45:42 <Elisa> +1

Elisa Kendall: +1 ←

17:45:45 <hendler> +1

James Hendler: +1 ←

17:45:48 <Achille> 0

Achille Fokoue: 0 ←

17:45:54 <Zhe> +1 (like to see delta)

Zhe Wu: +1 (like to see delta) ←

17:45:58 <Vipul> +1

Vipul Kashyap: +1 ←

17:46:06 <Joanne> 0 (just rejoined)

Joanne Luciano: 0 (just rejoined) ←

17:46:07 <sandro> pro in room - 4

Sandro Hawke: pro in room - 4 ←

17:46:24 <Vipul> +1 to start from scratch

Vipul Kashyap: +1 to start from scratch ←

17:46:33 <GiorgosStoilos> votes for no in room - 9

votes for no in room - 9 ←

17:46:34 <sandro> con in room - 9

Sandro Hawke: con in room - 9 ←

17:46:46 <sandro> Ian: essentially a tie....

Ian Horrocks: essentially a tie.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:47:54 <hendler> I VOTE YES

James Hendler: I VOTE YES ←

17:47:56 <Elisa> +1

Elisa Kendall: +1 ←

17:47:57 <GiorgosStoilos> ian: people from the call are confused

Ian Horrocks: people from the call are confused ←

17:48:00 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1 ←

17:48:09 <Joanne> +1

Joanne Luciano: +1 ←

17:48:19 <GiorgosStoilos> count on room: 3

count on room: 3 ←

17:48:25 <Vipul> +1 for NO

Vipul Kashyap: +1 for NO ←

17:48:28 <GiorgosStoilos> total for yes: 7

total for yes: 7 ←

17:48:28 <Achille> abstain

Achille Fokoue: abstain ←

17:48:40 <GiorgosStoilos> votes for no=12 (11 + vipul)

votes for no=12 (11 + vipul) ←

17:48:57 <Vipul> OK

Vipul Kashyap: OK ←

17:49:00 <Vipul> -1 then

Vipul Kashyap: -1 then ←

17:49:17 <sandro> PROPOSED: 'Requirements' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL publication

PROPOSED: 'Requirements' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL publication ←

17:49:27 <GiorgosStoilos> next doc to poll =requirements=

next doc to poll =requirements= ←

17:50:04 <GiorgosStoilos> voting for yes:

voting for yes: ←

17:50:08 <Achille> 0

Achille Fokoue: 0 ←

17:50:12 <sandro> Ian: Yes mean keep current document and warm it up.

Ian Horrocks: Yes mean keep current document and warm it up. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:50:12 <Zhe> 0

Zhe Wu: 0 ←

17:50:18 <Vipul> -1

Vipul Kashyap: -1 ←

17:50:18 <GiorgosStoilos> count on the room: 2

count on the room: 2 ←

17:50:23 <hendler> -1

James Hendler: -1 ←

17:50:24 <GiorgosStoilos> voting for no

voting for no ←

17:50:25 <Elisa> -1

Elisa Kendall: -1 ←

17:50:31 <Joanne> +1 voitn for no

Joanne Luciano: +1 voitn for no ←

17:50:40 <GiorgosStoilos> room: 12

Scribe problem: the name 'room' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown room: 12 ←

17:50:49 <hendler> so it's not just the phone that is confused :-)

James Hendler: so it's not just the phone that is confused :-) ←

17:51:15 <sandro> PROPOSED: 'Formal Specification' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL publication

PROPOSED: 'Formal Specification' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL publication ←

17:51:37 <GiorgosStoilos> next doc =Reference=

next doc =Reference= ←

17:51:42 <hendler> +1 for reference

James Hendler: +1 for reference ←

17:51:44 <GiorgosStoilos> Starting vote from YES

Starting vote from YES ←

17:51:44 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1 ←

17:51:49 <Elisa> +1

Elisa Kendall: +1 ←

17:51:53 <Achille> 0

Achille Fokoue: 0 ←

17:52:00 <sandro> PROPOSED: 'Descriptive Specification'' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL publication

PROPOSED: 'Descriptive Specification'' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL publication ←

17:52:14 <sandro> (skipping Formal Spec because it's not user facing)

Sandro Hawke: (skipping Formal Spec because it's not user facing) ←

17:52:29 <GiorgosStoilos> count yes (refresh) in the room: 4

count yes (refresh) in the room: 4 ←

17:52:36 <GiorgosStoilos> voting for no

voting for no ←

17:52:37 <Joanne> +1 start fresh

Joanne Luciano: +1 start fresh ←

17:52:37 <Vipul> -1

Vipul Kashyap: -1 ←

17:52:48 <GiorgosStoilos> count in room for no: 13

count in room for no: 13 ←

17:53:10 <sandro> PROPOSED: 'GUIDE'' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL publication

PROPOSED: 'GUIDE'' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL publication ←

17:53:14 <hendler> +1 yes for Guide

James Hendler: +1 yes for Guide ←

17:53:14 <Achille> 0

Achille Fokoue: 0 ←

17:53:19 <Elisa> +1

Elisa Kendall: +1 ←

17:53:22 <GiorgosStoilos> voting for yes:

voting for yes: ←

17:53:24 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1 ←

17:53:37 <GiorgosStoilos> room for yes: 2

room for yes: 2 ←

17:53:43 <Vipul> -1

Vipul Kashyap: -1 ←

17:53:46 <GiorgosStoilos> voting for no

voting for no ←

17:53:56 <Joanne> +1 do new!

Joanne Luciano: +1 do new! ←

17:54:00 <GiorgosStoilos> room for no: 13

room for no: 13 ←

17:54:40 <hendler> but this means we cannot do incremental?

James Hendler: but this means we cannot do incremental? ←

17:56:26 <pfps> rough "page size" for Overview 14 - Reference 50 - Guide 38

Peter Patel-Schneider: rough "page size" for Overview 14 - Reference 50 - Guide 38 ←

17:56:33 <dlm> An introductory document between OWL 1.1 Overview and OWL Overview from Rec. (without the species of OWL emphasis)

Deborah McGuinness: An introductory document between OWL 1.1 Overview and OWL Overview from Rec. (without the species of OWL emphasis) ←

17:56:38 <dlm> from evan

Deborah McGuinness: from evan ←

17:57:31 <Vipul> +1

Vipul Kashyap: +1 ←

17:57:48 <GiorgosStoilos> ian: maybe not have a poll on evan's suggestion (above) since it is currently not clear

Ian Horrocks: maybe not have a poll on evan's suggestion (above) since it is currently not clear ←

17:58:32 <dlm> ha ha from joanne

Deborah McGuinness: ha ha from joanne ←

17:58:50 <Joanne> I want to stay!

Joanne Luciano: I want to stay! ←

17:59:10 <GiorgosStoilos> topic: test cases

8. test cases

18:00:01 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q? ←

18:00:05 <GiorgosStoilos> jeremy: explains some ways for doing tests

Jeremy Carroll: explains some ways for doing tests ←

18:00:40 <GiorgosStoilos> ...every feature in the spec must have a test

...every feature in the spec must have a test ←

18:00:49 <Joanne> both are important

Joanne Luciano: both are important ←

18:01:26 <ivan> ack Vipul

Ivan Herman: ack Vipul ←

18:02:04 <GiorgosStoilos> jeremy: in owl test was a normative doc

Jeremy Carroll: in owl test was a normative doc ←

18:02:14 <GiorgosStoilos> ivan: not in sparql

Ivan Herman: not in sparql ←

18:02:16 <hendler> note that to be able to leave PR, one must document that every feature is implementable, and the tests are a way to do that

James Hendler: note that to be able to leave PR, one must document that every feature is implementable, and the tests are a way to do that ←

18:03:10 <hendler> +1 to postponing the decision

James Hendler: +1 to postponing the decision ←

18:03:18 <GiorgosStoilos> ivan: don't need to decide now about normative or non

Ivan Herman: don't need to decide now about normative or non ←

18:03:56 <GiorgosStoilos> alanRut: put test cases on wiki

Alan Ruttenberg: put test cases on wiki ←

18:04:05 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test_Case_Experiment

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test_Case_Experiment ←

18:04:45 <GiorgosStoilos> ian: what will happen with existing test, will they be on the wiki

Ian Horrocks: what will happen with existing test, will they be on the wiki ←

18:05:09 <Zakim> -Achille

Zakim IRC Bot: -Achille ←

18:05:16 <Joanne> response to alanr - would have to update the tests!

Joanne Luciano: response to alanr - would have to update the tests! ←

18:05:17 <hendler> do we have any commitment on archivability of the wiki?

James Hendler: do we have any commitment on archivability of the wiki? ←

18:05:29 <sandro> yes

Sandro Hawke: yes ←

18:05:58 <hendler> and can it be frozen so it cannot be changed after some point (i.e. something that goes to Rec shouldn't have a "live document")

James Hendler: and can it be frozen so it cannot be changed after some point (i.e. something that goes to Rec shouldn't have a "live document") ←

18:08:47 <sandro> test cases on wiki -- Sandro coding, Bijan as user, Alan, Jeremy

Sandro Hawke: test cases on wiki -- Sandro coding, Bijan as user, Alan, Jeremy ←

18:09:01 <Zakim> -Meeting_Room

Scribe problem: the name 'Meeting_Room' does not match any of the 46 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Meeting_Room ←

18:09:35 <sandro> ACTION: Sandro to develop scripts to extract test cases from wiki, coordinating with Bijan, Jeremey, Alan.

ACTION: Sandro to develop scripts to extract test cases from wiki, coordinating with Bijan, Jeremey, Alan. ←

18:09:36 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-43 - Develop scripts to extract test cases from wiki, coordinating with Bijan, Jeremey, Alan. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-12-13].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-43 - Develop scripts to extract test cases from wiki, coordinating with Bijan, Jeremey, Alan. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-12-13]. ←

18:09:36 <Joanne> do we view test cases as sameas evaluation?

Joanne Luciano: do we view test cases as sameas evaluation? ←

18:09:43 <hendler> we phone folks just got cut off - meeting room left the wiki...

James Hendler: we phone folks just got cut off - meeting room left the wiki... ←

18:09:43 <Jeremy> (meeting adjourned)

Jeremy Carroll: (meeting adjourned) ←

18:09:55 <Jeremy> something went wrong with phone

Jeremy Carroll: something went wrong with phone ←

18:09:56 <sandro> We got hung up on.....

Sandro Hawke: We got hung up on..... ←

18:10:01 <Zhe> i can hear someone typing

Zhe Wu: i can hear someone typing ←

18:10:02 <Jeremy> but we decided to adjourn

Jeremy Carroll: but we decided to adjourn ←

18:10:41 <Zakim> -jim

Zakim IRC Bot: -jim ←

18:10:55 <Evan> Zakim was cut off because we went past our scheduled time

Evan Wallace: Zakim was cut off because we went past our scheduled time ←

18:11:31 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←

18:12:30 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.603.897.aaaa ←

19:59:04 <Zakim> -Joanne_Luciano

(No events recorded for 106 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -Joanne_Luciano ←

20:04:04 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Vipul_Kashyap, in SW_OWL(F2F)6:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, Vipul_Kashyap, in SW_OWL(F2F)6:00AM ←

20:04:07 <Zakim> SW_OWL(F2F)6:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL(F2F)6:00AM has ended ←

20:04:08 <Zakim> Attendees were Joanne_Luciano, Achille, Meeting_Room, +1.603.897.aaaa, Elisa_Kendall, Vipul_Kashyap, jim

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Joanne_Luciano, Achille, Meeting_Room, +1.603.897.aaaa, Elisa_Kendall, Vipul_Kashyap, jim ←

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