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Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 17 November 2014

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.11.17
Present
Robert Sanderson, Alexandre Bertails, Arnaud Le Hors, Sandro Hawke, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Andrei Sambra, Ashok Malhotra, Steve Speicher, Henry Story, Ted Thibodeau
Chair
Arnaud Le Hors
Scribe
Robert Sanderson
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Minutes of Nov 10 are approved link
  2. close ACTION-150 link
Topics
14:58:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/17-ldp-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/17-ldp-irc

14:58:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public

14:58:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP

14:58:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

14:58:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
14:58:12 <trackbot> Date: 17 November 2014
14:59:21 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started

14:59:28 <Zakim> +azaroth

Zakim IRC Bot: +azaroth

14:59:47 <Zakim> +Alexandre

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alexandre

15:00:01 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

15:00:16 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:00:26 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:01:46 <Zakim> +deiu

Zakim IRC Bot: +deiu

15:02:05 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ashok_Malhotra

15:02:14 <Zakim> -Alexandre

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alexandre

15:02:41 <Zakim> +Alexandre

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alexandre

15:02:57 <Zakim> +[IBM]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM]

15:03:09 <SteveS> zakim, [IBM] is me

Steve Speicher: zakim, [IBM] is me

15:03:09 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveS; got it

15:04:39 <Zakim> + +33.6.47.14.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.6.47.14.aaaa

15:05:26 <bblfish> zalim, aaaa is me

Henry Story: zalim, aaaa is me

15:05:32 <bblfish> zakim, aaaa is me

Henry Story: zakim, aaaa is me

15:05:33 <Zakim> +bblfish; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bblfish; got it

15:05:55 <azaroth> ScribeNick: azaroth

(Scribe set to Robert Sanderson)

<azaroth> chair: Arnaud
<azaroth> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.11.17
15:06:04 <azaroth> TOPIC: Minutes of last meeting

1. Minutes of last meeting

15:06:18 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-11-10

Arnaud Le Hors: http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-11-10

15:06:20 <azaroth> Arnaud: I suggest we approve them, objections? Hearing none,

Arnaud Le Hors: I suggest we approve them, objections? Hearing none,

<azaroth> RESOLVED: Minutes of Nov 10 are approved

RESOLVED: Minutes of Nov 10 are approved

15:06:35 <azaroth> ... Next meeting will be next week, Nov 24.

... Next meeting will be next week, Nov 24.

<azaroth> topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues

2. Tracking of Actions and Issues

15:06:47 <azaroth> Arnaud: Nothing new in tracker, one action on LD Patch.

Arnaud Le Hors: Nothing new in tracker, one action on LD Patch.

15:06:49 <betehess> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/ldpatch/ldpatch.html#grammar-production-add

Alexandre Bertails: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/ldpatch/ldpatch.html#grammar-production-add

15:07:02 <azaroth> Alexandre:  Pasted in a link to the page I just pushed

Alexandre Bertails: Pasted in a link to the page I just pushed

15:07:22 <azaroth> ... Page about Patch.

... Page about Patch.

15:07:34 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Close the action, and discuss later in the call

Arnaud Le Hors: Close the action, and discuss later in the call

15:07:37 <bblfish> action-150?

Henry Story: ACTION-150?

15:07:37 <trackbot> action-150 -- Alexandre Bertails to Add support for arbitrary text/turtle for the add operation in ldpatch -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-150 -- Alexandre Bertails to Add support for arbitrary text/turtle for the add operation in ldpatch -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN

15:07:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/150

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/150

<azaroth> RESOLVED: close ACTION-150

RESOLVED: close ACTION-150

15:07:46 <azaroth> TOPIC: Status of the specs

3. Status of the specs

15:07:56 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Eric, do we have the call yet?

Arnaud Le Hors: Eric, do we have the call yet?

15:07:58 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:08:06 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:08:06 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it

15:08:08 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:08:08 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

15:08:09 <azaroth> Eric:  Pinging Ralph on IRC now, not set up yet

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Pinging Ralph on IRC now, not set up yet

15:08:33 <azaroth> Arnaud: Need to get this done soon.

Arnaud Le Hors: Need to get this done soon.

15:08:46 <azaroth> ... Sent a request to move paging to CR

... Sent a request to move paging to CR

15:08:52 <azaroth> ... SHould be able to have a single call for both

... SHould be able to have a single call for both

15:09:12 <azaroth> ... Please lets not delay it any further. Out of charter at the end of the month, would like to be PR by then

... Please lets not delay it any further. Out of charter at the end of the month, would like to be PR by then

15:09:33 <azaroth> ... Happy at the same time to see updated reports coming in

... Happy at the same time to see updated reports coming in

15:09:44 <azaroth> ... Makes the story better. Thank you Steve for keeping up with them

... Makes the story better. Thank you Steve for keeping up with them

15:10:03 <azaroth> ... Looking at paging, what's the status of the tests?

... Looking at paging, what's the status of the tests?

15:10:07 <azaroth> ... Anyone working on it?

... Anyone working on it?

15:10:24 <azaroth> ... Have a draft ready, with pointer to suite, but more a framework and we have to develop the tests

... Have a draft ready, with pointer to suite, but more a framework and we have to develop the tests

15:10:35 <azaroth> ... I know Steve has been working on some, but is anyone contributing?

... I know Steve has been working on some, but is anyone contributing?

15:11:06 <azaroth> Steves:  The bodies of the tests haven't been written, just a skeleton for the framework

Steve Speicher: The bodies of the tests haven't been written, just a skeleton for the framework

15:11:14 <azaroth> ... No pull requests to incorporate anything

... No pull requests to incorporate anything

15:11:17 <Arnaud> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/tip/tests/ldp-paging-testsuite.html

Arnaud Le Hors: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/tip/tests/ldp-paging-testsuite.html

15:11:24 <azaroth> ... Unless someone with commit rights has done it themselves

... Unless someone with commit rights has done it themselves

15:11:36 <azaroth> ... Waiting for people to provide implementations on individual tests

... Waiting for people to provide implementations on individual tests

15:11:52 <azaroth> Arnaud: Getting an error when I click on the link (above)

Arnaud Le Hors: Getting an error when I click on the link (above)

15:12:08 <azaroth> Alexandre:  I think you shouldn't be using tip, use default

Alexandre Bertails: I think you shouldn't be using tip, use default

15:12:12 <betehess> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/tests/ldp-paging-testsuite.html

Alexandre Bertails: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/tests/ldp-paging-testsuite.html

15:12:50 <azaroth> Arnaud:  We have a stub but who is planning to contribute tests, anyone?

Arnaud Le Hors: We have a stub but who is planning to contribute tests, anyone?

15:13:00 <azaroth> Steves:  I plan to, but dont have a solid plan

Steve Speicher: I plan to, but dont have a solid plan

15:13:08 <azaroth> ... Maybe towards end of year or early next year

... Maybe towards end of year or early next year

15:13:13 <azaroth> Arnaud: Anyone else?

Arnaud Le Hors: Anyone else?

15:13:21 <azaroth> ... Henry?

... Henry?

15:13:23 <betehess> basically in Mercurial, tip points to the latest commit, across *all* branches, so a push to another branch will break it. Prefer a named branch itself: much more stable

Alexandre Bertails: basically in Mercurial, tip points to the latest commit, across *all* branches, so a push to another branch will break it. Prefer a named branch itself: much more stable

15:13:25 <azaroth> *tumbleweed*

*tumbleweed*

15:13:35 <bblfish> I am not implementing paging yet.

Henry Story: I am not implementing paging yet.

15:13:35 <SteveS> I/we are

Steve Speicher: I/we are

15:13:35 <azaroth> Arnaud: Who is implementing paging

Arnaud Le Hors: Who is implementing paging

15:13:42 <azaroth> *more tumbleweed*

*more tumbleweed*

15:13:49 <bblfish> I need to have a JavaScript client first then paging becomes important

Henry Story: I need to have a JavaScript client first then paging becomes important

15:14:00 <azaroth> Arnaud: Not completely surprised. Sandro has been open that he's not interested

Arnaud Le Hors: Not completely surprised. Sandro has been open that he's not interested

15:14:18 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

15:14:21 <azaroth> ... Not clear that we have enough interest to get to PR

... Not clear that we have enough interest to get to PR

15:14:40 <azaroth> ... need to have people implement, and get tests

... need to have people implement, and get tests

15:14:40 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

15:15:02 <azaroth> Henry:  There's a notion of creating a special serialization of RDF, then binary paging could work

Henry Story: There's a notion of creating a special serialization of RDF, then binary paging could work

15:15:18 <azaroth> ... paging in HTTP, but need to organize the RDF in a specific way. Would also help for patch.

... paging in HTTP, but need to organize the RDF in a specific way. Would also help for patch.

15:15:33 <azaroth> ... interested in paging later

... interested in paging later

15:15:38 <bblfish> not yet sorry

Henry Story: not yet sorry

15:15:44 <azaroth> Arnaud: So not interested as currently defined

Arnaud Le Hors: So not interested as currently defined

15:15:52 <sandro> or maybe you wont, because you'll see it's not useful.

Sandro Hawke: or maybe you wont, because you'll see it's not useful.

15:15:57 <azaroth> ... Spec may remain in CR for the foreseeable future. has happened before

... Spec may remain in CR for the foreseeable future. has happened before

15:16:06 <azaroth> Sandro:  We're not supposed to do that if the WG ends

Sandro Hawke: We're not supposed to do that if the WG ends

15:16:26 <azaroth> ... Used to do it, but not supposed to leave things open on REC track

... Used to do it, but not supposed to leave things open on REC track

15:16:37 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Can turn it into a note later

Arnaud Le Hors: Can turn it into a note later

15:16:48 <azaroth> Sandro:  Unless we're not rechartered

Sandro Hawke: Unless we're not rechartered

15:17:05 <azaroth> Arnaud: Assuming we're going to recharter, yes.  Details to be defined but assume there'll be another WG

Arnaud Le Hors: Assuming we're going to recharter, yes. Details to be defined but assume there'll be another WG

15:17:13 <azaroth> ... that's it for the status of specs

... that's it for the status of specs

15:17:17 <azaroth> TOPIC:  LDPatch

4. LDPatch

15:17:39 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Proposal to publish as CR.  Talked about it last week. A lack of feedback.

Arnaud Le Hors: Proposal to publish as CR. Talked about it last week. A lack of feedback.

15:17:40 <betehess> -1 to passing LD Patch to LC from me :-)

Alexandre Bertails: -1 to passing LD Patch to LC from me :-)

15:18:02 <azaroth> ... Have a stable spec, got some public comments. Not clear what's stopping us, but no one prepared to make the first move

... Have a stable spec, got some public comments. Not clear what's stopping us, but no one prepared to make the first move

15:18:13 <azaroth> ... Can consider it, would like to hear what people thing

... Can consider it, would like to hear what people think

15:18:13 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

15:18:16 <azaroth> s/thing/think
15:18:18 <azaroth> s/thing/think/
15:18:31 <azaroth> ... Can move it to CR, but if not good enough, what's wrong?

... Can move it to CR, but if not good enough, what's wrong?

15:18:32 <SteveS> Here is the issue tracking wiki page: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Ldpatch-issues

Steve Speicher: Here is the issue tracking wiki page: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Ldpatch-issues

15:18:37 <Arnaud> ack betehess

Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess

15:19:02 <azaroth> Alexandre:  Changes from ?? commons have a big impact, and need to be reflected in the intro

Alexandre Bertails: Changes from ?? commons have a big impact, and need to be reflected in the intro

15:19:15 <azaroth> ... too many todos to publish now, but in a week we could reconsider

... too many todos to publish now, but in a week we could reconsider

15:19:24 <sandro> no on eis proposing to publish as-is

Sandro Hawke: no on eis proposing to publish as-is

15:19:25 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Update with where you are with draft?

Arnaud Le Hors: Update with where you are with draft?

15:20:03 <betehess> [[

Alexandre Bertails: [[

15:20:04 <betehess> * section 2: LD Patch s/format/semantics/

Alexandre Bertails: * section 2: LD Patch s/format/semantics/

15:20:04 <betehess> * make it normative

Alexandre Bertails: * make it normative

15:20:04 <betehess> * extract examples into a 3rd non-normative section

Alexandre Bertails: * extract examples into a 3rd non-normative section

15:20:04 <betehess> * add HTTP semantics section with content of current 5.

Alexandre Bertails: * add HTTP semantics section with content of current 5.

15:20:04 <betehess> * explain UpdateList semantics with drawing

Alexandre Bertails: * explain UpdateList semantics with drawing

15:20:06 <betehess> * remove Abstract Syntax section

Alexandre Bertails: * remove Abstract Syntax section

15:20:07 <azaroth> Alexandre:  Tim's comment simplifies some things. Have remaining thing to do ... address comments from Steve

Alexandre Bertails: Tim's comment simplifies some things. Have remaining thing to do ... address comments from Steve

15:20:08 <betehess> * move 2.3 Pathological graph at the end of introduction

Alexandre Bertails: * move 2.3 Pathological graph at the end of introduction

15:20:08 <sandro> where is current draft?

Sandro Hawke: where is current draft?

15:20:10 <betehess> ]]

Alexandre Bertails: ]]

15:20:17 <deiu> q+ to ask what timeframe are we looking at for publication?

Andrei Sambra: q+ to ask what timeframe are we looking at for publication?

15:20:23 <azaroth> ... once we've done those things we'll be happy. Can be done by end of week

... once we've done those things we'll be happy. Can be done by end of week

15:20:26 <deiu> ack me

Andrei Sambra: ack me

15:20:27 <Arnaud> ack deiu

Arnaud Le Hors: ack deiu

15:20:27 <Zakim> deiu, you wanted to ask what timeframe are we looking at for publication?

Zakim IRC Bot: deiu, you wanted to ask what timeframe are we looking at for publication?

15:20:44 <azaroth> deiu:  We talked about LC for patch, but not when. Is there a deadline?

Andrei Sambra: We talked about LC for patch, but not when. Is there a deadline?

15:21:03 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Don't have a well defined plan. Need to see what's missing

Arnaud Le Hors: Don't have a well defined plan. Need to see what's missing

15:21:29 <azaroth> ... progress from editors, not clear what was going to happen. Happy to give until next week

... progress from editors, not clear what was going to happen. Happy to give until next week

15:21:40 <azaroth> deiu: Some changes have been done, e.g. the grammar

Andrei Sambra: Some changes have been done, e.g. the grammar

15:21:47 <azaroth> ... Now mostly editorial changes

... Now mostly editorial changes

15:21:58 <azaroth> ... Once these are done it should be ready for review

... Once these are done it should be ready for review

15:22:23 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Move to CR/LC as we have the shortened process. Cna choose to combine the two

Arnaud Le Hors: Move to CR/LC as we have the shortened process. Cna choose to combine the two

15:22:37 <azaroth> ... Can take advantage of that. Any comments?

... Can take advantage of that. Any comments?

15:22:58 <azaroth> ... invite people to comment and implement, and do disposition of comments at the same time

... invite people to comment and implement, and do disposition of comments at the same time

15:23:02 <azaroth> ... assume everyone is okay?

... assume everyone is okay?

15:23:26 <azaroth> ... Trying to figure out how to get to rec faster.

... Trying to figure out how to get to rec faster.

15:23:35 <azaroth> ... WG have been given the option to combine them

... WG have been given the option to combine them

15:23:45 <azaroth> ... Unclear if this actually helps

... Unclear if this actually helps

15:23:55 <azaroth> ... As have to do all the steps, just last two at the same time

... As have to do all the steps, just last two at the same time

15:24:07 <azaroth> ... If there's changes you have to go back to CR anyway

... If there's changes you have to go back to CR anyway

15:24:12 <azaroth> ... Questions? Comments?

... Questions? Comments?

15:24:16 <azaroth> ... Also need a test suite

... Also need a test suite

15:24:28 <azaroth> Alexandre: Have a test suite, finalized yesterday by pierre antoine

Alexandre Bertails: Have a test suite, finalized yesterday by pierre antoine

15:24:43 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Give the editors a week to finish and then freeze to review for a week?

Arnaud Le Hors: Give the editors a week to finish and then freeze to review for a week?

15:24:56 <azaroth> Sandro:  I think I heard it could be done by firday, could review on the weekend?

Sandro Hawke: I think I heard it could be done by firday, could review on the weekend?

15:25:05 <deiu> The spec is not that long btw

Andrei Sambra: The spec is not that long btw

15:25:08 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Not safe to ask people to review on the weekend

Arnaud Le Hors: Not safe to ask people to review on the weekend

15:25:22 <azaroth> Steves:  Travelling on the weekend and have a short week next week

Steve Speicher: Travelling on the weekend and have a short week next week

15:25:28 <azaroth> ... could try to review by Dec 1

... could try to review by Dec 1

15:25:45 <azaroth> ... Would have to go through the changelog, which ones have and haven't been handled

... Would have to go through the changelog, which ones have and haven't been handled

15:25:55 <azaroth> ... would be nice to see on the wiki

... would be nice to see on the wiki

15:26:22 <azaroth> Alexandre: Biggest was tim's comment, which was some refactoring

Alexandre Bertails: Biggest was tim's comment, which was some refactoring

15:26:28 <azaroth> Arnaud: Any chance to have it done by friday?

Arnaud Le Hors: Any chance to have it done by friday?

15:26:33 <azaroth> Alexandre: I can try

Alexandre Bertails: I can try

15:26:43 <azaroth> Sandro:  If Steve can't review by Dec 1, does it matter?

Sandro Hawke: If Steve can't review by Dec 1, does it matter?

15:26:48 <azaroth> Arnaud: Steve?

Arnaud Le Hors: Steve?

15:26:56 <azaroth> Steves: Depends when, have a hard stop at 2pm

Steve Speicher: Depends when, have a hard stop at 2pm

15:27:35 <azaroth> Arnaud:  As soon as it's done send an email to the group. If early enough, great, otherwise we'll have to wait

Arnaud Le Hors: As soon as it's done send an email to the group. If early enough, great, otherwise we'll have to wait

15:27:49 <azaroth> Steves:  Should we ask how many people plan to support/implement?

Steve Speicher: Should we ask how many people plan to support/implement?

15:27:56 <deiu> I am

Andrei Sambra: I am

15:27:58 <azaroth> Arnaud: Who is going to implement LD patch

Arnaud Le Hors: Who is going to implement LD patch

15:28:09 <azaroth> Alexandre: We have two implementations

Alexandre Bertails: We have two implementations

15:28:12 <bblfish> For me it's allready implemented since Alex's implementation is in Scala :-)

Henry Story: For me it's allready implemented since Alex's implementation is in Scala :-)

15:28:13 <SteveS> We are planning to do some patch work

Steve Speicher: We are planning to do some patch work

15:28:25 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

15:28:32 <azaroth> Steves: Planning to do it for some things

Steve Speicher: Planning to do it for some things

15:28:36 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

15:28:55 <azaroth> Henry: If Alexandre doing in scala, I don't need to implement :) but also a possible JS implementation

Henry Story: If Alexandre doing in scala, I don't need to implement :) but also a possible JS implementation

15:29:03 <azaroth> Arnaud: Anyone else?

Arnaud Le Hors: Anyone else?

15:29:04 <bblfish> due to scala-js.org

Henry Story: due to scala-js.org

15:29:22 <azaroth> Sandro:  One of the students working for Tim will probably end up implementing it

Sandro Hawke: One of the students working for Tim will probably end up implementing it

15:29:30 <deiu> I think Tim already started implementing it

Andrei Sambra: I think Tim already started implementing it

15:29:32 <azaroth> Arnaud:  I think that's it for LD patch

Arnaud Le Hors: I think that's it for LD patch

<azaroth> topic: Rechartering

5. Rechartering

15:29:37 <bblfish> Ie. if alex does the implementation in Scala it can be compiled to JavaScript.

Henry Story: Ie. if alex does the implementation in Scala it can be compiled to JavaScript.

15:29:38 <azaroth> Arnaud: let's talk about rechartering

Arnaud Le Hors: let's talk about rechartering

15:29:44 <sandro> betehess, JS for use in NodeJS

Sandro Hawke: betehess, JS for use in NodeJS

15:29:54 <azaroth> ... Sandro sent out a long list of possible features

... Sandro sent out a long list of possible features

15:30:03 <azaroth> ... some are familiar, others are not at all

... some are familiar, others are not at all

15:30:21 <azaroth> ... clear from the discussion that it resonated with some people

... clear from the discussion that it resonated with some people

15:30:29 <bblfish> sandro, should work in node.js and in browsers

Henry Story: sandro, should work in node.js and in browsers

15:30:44 <azaroth> ... up to us what we want to put in the charter. took a first shot at it

... up to us what we want to put in the charter. took a first shot at it

15:30:55 <azaroth> ... just a strawperson for the WG to start working on

... just a strawperson for the WG to start working on

15:31:20 <azaroth> ... would like to hear from people based on discussion what things we can all agree on

... would like to hear from people based on discussion what things we can all agree on

15:31:47 <azaroth> ... also talked about time frame. From discussion, there's agreement we don't want to rush into working on the next version

... also talked about time frame. From discussion, there's agreement we don't want to rush into working on the next version

15:32:02 <azaroth> ... I think there's a way to set up the schedule so we get the first 6 months as exploratory period

... I think there's a way to set up the schedule so we get the first 6 months as exploratory period

15:32:10 <azaroth> ... would allow us to refine what we want to do

... would allow us to refine what we want to do

15:32:20 <azaroth> ... suggestion is not to worry too much about that

... suggestion is not to worry too much about that

15:32:29 <azaroth> ... when we have a list of things we want to do, we can update the timeline

... when we have a list of things we want to do, we can update the timeline

15:32:48 <azaroth> ... lets focus on what we want to tackle

... lets focus on what we want to tackle

15:33:07 <azaroth> ... Sandro, you put up that list and got feedback. Do you have a sense what might be of interest to the larger group?

... Sandro, you put up that list and got feedback. Do you have a sense what might be of interest to the larger group?

15:33:14 <azaroth> Sandro:  I've completely forgotten :)

Sandro Hawke: I've completely forgotten :)

15:33:36 <SteveS> Sandro’s email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2014Nov/0010.html

Steve Speicher: Sandro’s email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2014Nov/0010.html

15:33:40 <betehess> what's the link to the draft charter?

Alexandre Bertails: what's the link to the draft charter?

15:33:49 <SteveS> https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext2015_Charter

Steve Speicher: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext2015_Charter

15:33:59 <azaroth> ... Haven't read the emails since last week, don't remember.   Did look over the draft charter. Could expand the list a bit.

... Haven't read the emails since last week, don't remember. Did look over the draft charter. Could expand the list a bit.

15:34:28 <azaroth> ... Don't really define the scope very much. thoughts about rewriting the introduction. RDF + REST ... not sure how well it has aged

... Don't really define the scope very much. thoughts about rewriting the introduction. RDF + REST ... not sure how well it has aged

15:34:35 <azaroth> Arnaud: Anyone?

Arnaud Le Hors: Anyone?

15:34:44 <bblfish> I think it works very well the RDF+REST

Henry Story: I think it works very well the RDF+REST

15:34:59 <azaroth> ... Clearly some of the REST community laugh at this. At the same time, it still conveys the right message?

... Clearly some of the REST community laugh at this. At the same time, it still conveys the right message?

15:35:04 <azaroth> Steves: What would you replace it with?

Steve Speicher: What would you replace it with?

15:35:06 <betehess> I don't see anything about Queries in the deliverable?

Alexandre Bertails: I don't see anything about Queries in the deliverable?

15:35:08 <azaroth> Sandro: Haven't gotten that far

Sandro Hawke: Haven't gotten that far

15:35:22 <bblfish> why are you cringing?

Henry Story: why are you cringing?

15:35:24 <azaroth> Steves: I had a similar reaction, but thought it hit the right nerve as well

Steve Speicher: I had a similar reaction, but thought it hit the right nerve as well

15:35:25 <Ashok> RDF+JSON-LD+REST ?

Ashok Malhotra: RDF+JSON-LD+REST ?

15:35:35 <betehess> ah, I understand, the first deliverable defers to Scope

Alexandre Bertails: ah, I understand, the first deliverable defers to Scope

15:35:40 <azaroth> ... trying to leverage HTTP and rich data model

... trying to leverage HTTP and rich data model

15:35:58 <bblfish> ?

Henry Story: ?

15:36:00 <azaroth> Sandro:  Independence, modularity, kind of thing

Sandro Hawke: Independence, modularity, kind of thing

15:36:13 <bblfish> don't understand what " Independence, modularity, kind of thing" ?

Henry Story: don't understand what " Independence, modularity, kind of thing" ?

15:36:19 <azaroth> Ted?: Hypertect should lead to all future states?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Hypertect should lead to all future states?

15:36:36 <SteveS> s/Ted?/ericP/
15:36:53 <azaroth> Sandro:  that we should modularize http. from REST perspective shouldn't bundle 20 functions into one thing, just add independent features. SO sort of violated rest principles

Sandro Hawke: that we should modularize http. from REST perspective shouldn't bundle 20 functions into one thing, just add independent features. SO sort of violated rest principles

15:36:55 <bblfish> mhh, look at HTTP spec?

Henry Story: mhh, look at HTTP spec?

15:37:02 <azaroth> ericP: WOrking examples that we could look at?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: WOrking examples that we could look at?

15:37:14 <azaroth> Arnaud: Steve posted a blog post on how to create a container

Arnaud Le Hors: Steve posted a blog post on how to create a container

15:37:18 <azaroth> ... got some reaction

... got some reaction

15:37:29 <bblfish> I agree we could have the spec simpler without LDP diect and indirect containers, that could go into a seperate spec. But otherwise...

Henry Story: I agree we could have the spec simpler without LDP diect and indirect containers, that could go into a seperate spec. But otherwise...

15:37:32 <azaroth> ... reflection of the sentiment of REST folk that LDP is not restful

... reflection of the sentiment of REST folk that LDP is not restful

15:37:35 <bblfish> what is that blog post?

Henry Story: what is that blog post?

15:37:41 <betehess> I think LDP *is* very RESTful

Alexandre Bertails: I think LDP *is* very RESTful

15:37:53 <azaroth> Steves: Don't feel like adding more to the claims. tightly coupled.

Steve Speicher: Don't feel like adding more to the claims. tightly coupled.

15:38:00 <bblfish> SteveS: can you point us to the blog

Steve Speicher: can you point us to the blog [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ]

15:38:05 <azaroth> Sandro: Took me several emails to understand. Then i got it and agreed

Sandro Hawke: Took me several emails to understand. Then i got it and agreed

15:38:06 <betehess> what are you guys referring to???

Alexandre Bertails: what are you guys referring to???

15:38:23 <azaroth> ericP: Nice goal, or require rearchitecture?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Nice goal, or require rearchitecture?

15:38:25 <bblfish> ( thanks betehess, I have the same question )

Henry Story: ( thanks betehess, I have the same question )

15:38:41 <azaroth> Steves: Didn't see it as a binary thing.

Steve Speicher: Didn't see it as a binary thing.

15:38:49 <azaroth> ... loosely coupled with tighter semantics

... loosely coupled with tighter semantics

15:39:08 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

15:39:13 <azaroth> Sandro:  Some things end up more tightly coupled than they need to be.  If loose coupling had been a goal, we would have made different design decisions

Sandro Hawke: Some things end up more tightly coupled than they need to be. If loose coupling had been a goal, we would have made different design decisions

15:39:18 <azaroth> Steves: Not really sure what it means

Steve Speicher: Not really sure what it means

15:39:21 <azaroth> Henry: URL?

Henry Story: URL?

15:39:24 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

15:39:27 <azaroth> Steves: A bunch of conversations

Steve Speicher: A bunch of conversations

15:39:43 <azaroth> ... some reaction to creating a container. POST some RDF and headers.

... some reaction to creating a container. POST some RDF and headers.

15:39:54 <bblfish> A god a twitter conversation! :D

Henry Story: A god a twitter conversation! :D

15:39:58 <azaroth> Arnaud: Reaction was on twitter, not really even a conversation

Arnaud Le Hors: Reaction was on twitter, not really even a conversation

15:40:03 <azaroth> ... more like a sarcastic comment

... more like a sarcastic comment

15:40:03 <bblfish> I am dying of laughter here

Henry Story: I am dying of laughter here

15:40:06 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

15:40:23 <azaroth> ... not sure how to make progress with draft charter

... not sure how to make progress with draft charter

15:40:26 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

15:40:40 <azaroth> ... don't think we can take on everything from Sandro's mail

... don't think we can take on everything from Sandro's mail

15:40:43 <azaroth> ... just a handful

... just a handful

15:41:08 <azaroth> ... would like people to have a look. scope has turned into a list of questions. could be different.

... would like people to have a look. scope has turned into a list of questions. could be different.

15:41:17 <azaroth> ... by next week, would be good if people could consider the list

... by next week, would be good if people could consider the list

15:41:35 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

15:41:35 <azaroth> ... questions that should not be there, ones that should and are not

... questions that should not be there, ones that should and are not

15:41:47 <azaroth> Sandro: By email, rather than by wiki?

Sandro Hawke: By email, rather than by wiki?

15:42:10 <azaroth> Arnaud: lets go thru existing list

Arnaud Le Hors: lets go thru existing list

15:42:18 <azaroth> ... then email after that

... then email after that

15:42:20 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext2015_Charter#scope

Arnaud Le Hors: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext2015_Charter#scope

15:42:45 <azaroth> ... same framework as the current charter

... same framework as the current charter

15:43:11 <azaroth> ... q1. "How can retrieval of a container and its contained resources be combined so that fewer HTTP operations are required than it is necessary with LDP 1.0?"

... q1. "How can retrieval of a container and its contained resources be combined so that fewer HTTP operations are required than it is necessary with LDP 1.0?"

15:43:23 <azaroth> ... what we've called inlining resources

... what we've called inlining resources

15:43:34 <azaroth> ... people still interested?

... people still interested?

15:43:43 <deiu> +1

Andrei Sambra: +1

15:43:44 <bblfish> yes, sounds interesting. Requires N-Quads

Henry Story: yes, sounds interesting. Requires N-Quads

15:43:46 <azaroth> +1 from Stanford on this

+1 from Stanford on this

15:43:47 <betehess> we at Pellucid already do Inlining

Alexandre Bertails: we at Pellucid already do Inlining

15:43:49 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

15:44:10 <azaroth> Ashok?: We have an option where you can ask for inlining

Ashok?: We have an option where you can ask for inlining

15:44:11 <betehess> not sure what to standardize though

Alexandre Bertails: not sure what to standardize though

15:44:31 <azaroth> Sandro: WOnder a little about framing it differently

Sandro Hawke: WOnder a little about framing it differently

15:44:40 <azaroth> ... if we have query support you might not talk about it the same way

... if we have query support you might not talk about it the same way

15:44:47 <bblfish> (me either nquads or a type of literal "<...> <...> <...>"^^lang:Turtle .

Henry Story: (me either nquads or a type of literal "<...> <...> <...>"^^lang:Turtle .

15:44:52 <azaroth> Arnaud: Querying not there, I believe. Should we add it?

Arnaud Le Hors: Querying not there, I believe. Should we add it?

15:45:00 <azaroth> Sandro: From my perspective yes

Sandro Hawke: From my perspective yes

15:45:01 <bblfish> yes +1 for adding querying.

Henry Story: yes +1 for adding querying.

15:45:14 <azaroth> Arnaud, Sandro: 3 sounds like a query

Arnaud, Sandro: 3 sounds like a query

15:45:18 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

15:45:20 <azaroth> -1 to 3 being query

-1 to 3 being query

15:45:33 <betehess> are we using the queue?

Alexandre Bertails: are we using the queue?

15:45:46 <azaroth> Sandro:  Simple filtering mechanism could subsume 1

Sandro Hawke: Simple filtering mechanism could subsume 1

15:45:50 <TallTed> +1 to looking at both inline and query (which results might blend)

Ted Thibodeau: +1 to looking at both inline and query (which results might blend)

15:45:51 <azaroth> Steves: not sure

Steve Speicher: not sure

15:45:56 <ericP> query can be used to meet 1 and 3 but 3 doesn't intrinsically subsume 1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: query can be used to meet 1 and 3 but 3 doesn't intrinsically subsume 1

15:46:05 <betehess> ok, even the chair ignores the queue :-)

Alexandre Bertails: ok, even the chair ignores the queue :-)

15:46:06 <bblfish> +1 to betehess and the use of the queue

Henry Story: +1 to betehess and the use of the queue

15:46:17 <SteveS> +0.5 for query, not as high for me

Steve Speicher: +0.5 for query, not as high for me

15:46:48 <azaroth> (some discussion)

(some discussion)

15:47:26 <azaroth> Arnaud:  request filtering. WIth 1 and 3 I think we cover the ground.

Arnaud Le Hors: request filtering. WIth 1 and 3 I think we cover the ground.

15:47:33 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

15:47:35 <azaroth> ... What about q2 about multiple resources in a single request

... What about q2 about multiple resources in a single request

15:47:44 <azaroth> Sandro: I would generalize to also include updated

Sandro Hawke: I would generalize to also include updated

15:47:48 <bblfish> +1 for 2 with POST on Tar

Henry Story: +1 for 2 with POST on Tar

15:47:48 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:47:53 <azaroth> ... might take out HTTP

... might take out HTTP

15:48:04 <azaroth> ... does websockets count as HTTP?

... does websockets count as HTTP?

15:48:16 <azaroth> Arnaud: I don't know

Arnaud Le Hors: I don't know

15:48:17 <SteveS> +1 for bulk operations

Steve Speicher: +1 for bulk operations

15:48:21 <azaroth> ... anyone else?

... anyone else?

15:48:29 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:48:37 <azaroth> Henry: We should use the queue

Henry Story: We should use the queue

15:48:49 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

15:49:07 <azaroth> ... to go back, query is one thing and orthogonal is 1. That's GET where get contained resources.

... to go back, query is one thing and orthogonal is 1. That's GET where get contained resources.

15:49:36 <azaroth> ... second one is creating multiple resources, there's HTTP2/SPDY but also how do you create resources by posting a Tar for example

... second one is creating multiple resources, there's HTTP2/SPDY but also how do you create resources by posting a Tar for example

15:49:43 <Arnaud> ack betehess

Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess

15:50:05 <azaroth> Alexandre:  we have already a query language that covers some of the points

Alexandre Bertails: we have already a query language that covers some of the points

15:50:12 <azaroth> ... do filtering, aggregation, inlining etc

... do filtering, aggregation, inlining etc

15:50:34 <azaroth> ... was a workshop discussed? do we want to do it?

... was a workshop discussed? do we want to do it?

15:50:38 <azaroth> Sandro: Not a bad idea

Sandro Hawke: Not a bad idea

15:51:04 <azaroth> ... could try to reach out to new people, having a workshop on standard data query languages or narrower

... could try to reach out to new people, having a workshop on standard data query languages or narrower

15:51:20 <azaroth> Arnaud: concern would be how much of that we want to do as part of the group

Arnaud Le Hors: concern would be how much of that we want to do as part of the group

15:51:28 <azaroth> ... hope we don't get into defining a query language

... hope we don't get into defining a query language

15:51:36 <azaroth> Sandro: That's why we haven't done it so far

Sandro Hawke: That's why we haven't done it so far

15:51:51 <azaroth> Alexandre: we published a blog post a few weeks ago, most would be open source

Alexandre Bertails: we published a blog post a few weeks ago, most would be open source

15:52:06 <azaroth> ... main thing is we want other people to work on the same thing

... main thing is we want other people to work on the same thing

15:52:17 <azaroth> ... would need to become members, then could do a submission

... would need to become members, then could do a submission

15:52:26 <bblfish> I think there is something about the need for a query langauge for LDP, so again either narrow SPARQL down to LDP or a new language

Henry Story: I think there is something about the need for a query langauge for LDP, so again either narrow SPARQL down to LDP or a new language

15:52:34 <azaroth> Sandro: CG could be a reasonable place. Maybe do that and bring them into the WG if they come up with something

Sandro Hawke: CG could be a reasonable place. Maybe do that and bring them into the WG if they come up with something

15:52:37 <azaroth> ... like JSON-LD

... like JSON-LD

15:52:39 <Ashok> Alexandre, can you post a ptr?

Ashok Malhotra: Alexandre, can you post a ptr?

15:53:07 <azaroth> Arnaud: Some kind of workshop interesting. Like a WG meeting, but open as invite the world. needs travel, so added cost

Arnaud Le Hors: Some kind of workshop interesting. Like a WG meeting, but open as invite the world. needs travel, so added cost

15:53:29 <SteveS> Modifying my answer: query could be a bit chunk of work, it would be good to understand in more detail what is broken with current approaches (SPARQL) and seen some work that has shown promise

Steve Speicher: Modifying my answer: query could be a bit chunk of work, it would be good to understand in more detail what is broken with current approaches (SPARQL) and seen some work that has shown promise

15:53:29 <azaroth> Sandro:  WGs do stakeholder meetings.  WG meeting, then days of public meeting with others who have some connection, like use cases or adopters

Sandro Hawke: WGs do stakeholder meetings. WG meeting, then days of public meeting with others who have some connection, like use cases or adopters

15:53:34 <betehess> here is the pointer of our work on what we internally call LDQL: http://io.pellucid.com/blog/exposing-resources-in-datomic-using-linked-data

Alexandre Bertails: here is the pointer of our work on what we internally call LDQL: http://io.pellucid.com/blog/exposing-resources-in-datomic-using-linked-data

15:53:39 <azaroth> Arnaud: Timing of that ?

Arnaud Le Hors: Timing of that ?

15:53:50 <azaroth> Sandro:  Within the next 6 months

Sandro Hawke: Within the next 6 months

15:54:06 <azaroth> ... good to colocate it?  Could do a couple of events at related conferences...

... good to colocate it? Could do a couple of events at related conferences...

15:54:14 <betehess> +1 to colocate it

Alexandre Bertails: +1 to colocate it

15:54:22 <azaroth> Arnaud: How do we charter to accomodate work in that space?

Arnaud Le Hors: How do we charter to accomodate work in that space?

15:54:30 <azaroth> Sandro:  Already kind of doing it, given the questions

Sandro Hawke: Already kind of doing it, given the questions

15:54:55 <azaroth> ... could be more specific ... is there a better way to extract something by a query information about the container and its members

... could be more specific ... is there a better way to extract something by a query information about the container and its members

15:55:11 <azaroth> -1 to query language definition

-1 to query language definition

15:55:23 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

15:55:25 <bblfish> +1 to 4

Henry Story: +1 to 4

15:55:29 <azaroth> Arnaud: What about q4 -- how can a client be notified?

Arnaud Le Hors: What about q4 -- how can a client be notified?

15:55:35 <azaroth> Ashok: This is Sandro's push ?

Ashok Malhotra: This is Sandro's push ?

15:55:36 <bblfish> +1 to 4

Henry Story: +1 to 4

15:55:37 <betehess> 4. is interesting but I don't see it part of LDP

Alexandre Bertails: 4. is interesting but I don't see it part of LDP

15:55:51 <azaroth> Sandro: Not just a resource, but anything, eg query results

Sandro Hawke: Not just a resource, but anything, eg query results

15:56:12 <bblfish> agree that this is query based

Henry Story: agree that this is query based

15:56:14 <azaroth> ... you have a container of millions of resources and want to know what happens in the container, sounds like a query

... you have a container of millions of resources and want to know what happens in the container, sounds like a query

15:56:14 <TallTed> PubSubHub?  RSS feed?

Ted Thibodeau: PubSubHub? RSS feed?

15:56:16 <SteveS> +1 to 4, work out either/both push or pull model

Steve Speicher: +1 to 4, work out either/both push or pull model

15:56:39 <azaroth> +1 to 4, in conjunction with SocialWeb WG activity streams

+1 to 4, in conjunction with SocialWeb WG activity streams

15:56:51 <bblfish> mhh. how do you ask that something has changed?

Henry Story: mhh. how do you ask that something has changed?

15:56:56 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

15:57:14 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

15:57:31 <azaroth> Henry: You can do in sparql, seems like something like sparql update. asking to query a change

Henry Story: You can do in sparql, seems like something like sparql update. asking to query a change

15:57:44 <azaroth> Sandro: 3 different research implementations trying to do it with sparql standing queries

Sandro Hawke: 3 different research implementations trying to do it with sparql standing queries

15:57:48 <TallTed> SPARQL Triggers.

Ted Thibodeau: SPARQL Triggers.

15:57:57 <TallTed> yay, reinventing SQL!

Ted Thibodeau: yay, reinventing SQL!

15:57:59 <azaroth> ... C-Sparql might be most well known, continuous sparql

... C-Sparql might be most well known, continuous sparql

15:58:19 <azaroth> Arnaud: q5

Arnaud Le Hors: q5

15:58:23 <bblfish> TallTed: not re-inventing, just improving by starting with more solid foundations :-)

Ted Thibodeau: not re-inventing, just improving by starting with more solid foundations :-) [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ]

15:58:31 <SteveS> +1 for adding yet another link header ;)

Steve Speicher: +1 for adding yet another link header ;)

15:58:45 <azaroth> ... don't want to do it for every resource, so need a mechanism to do for a set of resources

... don't want to do it for every resource, so need a mechanism to do for a set of resources

15:58:56 <azaroth> Sandro: Generalize beyond sparql, might want to do it for description mechanism

Sandro Hawke: Generalize beyond sparql, might want to do it for description mechanism

15:59:25 <azaroth> ... link header doesn't work, could be end point that handles 10M resources, don't want to access them all

... link header doesn't work, could be end point that handles 10M resources, don't want to access them all

15:59:45 <azaroth> ... something like .well-known

... something like .well-known

15:59:54 <SteveS> +1 to sandro, for generalizing it for things like SPARQL and event mechanism

Steve Speicher: +1 to sandro, for generalizing it for things like SPARQL and event mechanism

16:00:11 <azaroth> Arnaud: Out of time. should focus on that. Will send updated list to mailing list, can comment on it

Arnaud Le Hors: Out of time. should focus on that. Will send updated list to mailing list, can comment on it

16:00:21 <azaroth> ... so a week from now we have a better list

... so a week from now we have a better list

16:00:30 <bblfish> ok, got to take train to Paris from Cannes now ...

Henry Story: ok, got to take train to Paris from Cannes now ...

16:00:30 <azaroth> ... thanks all, thanks Rob for scribing, talk to you next week

... thanks all, thanks Rob for scribing, talk to you next week

16:00:31 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:00:32 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ashok_Malhotra

16:00:32 <Zakim> -SteveS

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveS

16:00:33 <Zakim> -Alexandre

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alexandre

16:00:35 <bblfish> bye

Henry Story: bye

16:00:35 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

16:00:37 <Zakim> -TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed

16:00:41 <Zakim> -bblfish

Zakim IRC Bot: -bblfish

16:00:42 <Zakim> -azaroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -azaroth

16:00:44 <Zakim> -deiu

Zakim IRC Bot: -deiu

16:00:57 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

16:00:57 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended

16:00:57 <Zakim> Attendees were azaroth, Alexandre, Arnaud, Sandro, EricP, deiu, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveS, +33.6.47.14.aaaa, bblfish, TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were azaroth, Alexandre, Arnaud, Sandro, EricP, deiu, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveS, +33.6.47.14.aaaa, bblfish, TallTed

<azaroth> Present: azaroth, Alexandre, Arnaud, Sandro, EricP, deiu, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveS, bblfish, TallTed


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