14:58:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/17-ldp-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/17-ldp-irc ←
14:58:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
14:58:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP ←
14:58:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes ←
14:58:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
14:58:12 <trackbot> Date: 17 November 2014
14:59:21 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started ←
14:59:28 <Zakim> +azaroth
Zakim IRC Bot: +azaroth ←
14:59:47 <Zakim> +Alexandre
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alexandre ←
15:00:01 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:00:16 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:00:26 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:01:46 <Zakim> +deiu
Zakim IRC Bot: +deiu ←
15:02:05 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ashok_Malhotra ←
15:02:14 <Zakim> -Alexandre
Zakim IRC Bot: -Alexandre ←
15:02:41 <Zakim> +Alexandre
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alexandre ←
15:02:57 <Zakim> +[IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM] ←
15:03:09 <SteveS> zakim, [IBM] is me
Steve Speicher: zakim, [IBM] is me ←
15:03:09 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveS; got it ←
15:04:39 <Zakim> + +33.6.47.14.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.6.47.14.aaaa ←
15:05:26 <bblfish> zalim, aaaa is me
Henry Story: zalim, aaaa is me ←
15:05:32 <bblfish> zakim, aaaa is me
Henry Story: zakim, aaaa is me ←
15:05:33 <Zakim> +bblfish; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bblfish; got it ←
15:05:55 <azaroth> ScribeNick: azaroth
(Scribe set to Robert Sanderson)
<azaroth> chair: Arnaud
<azaroth> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.11.17
15:06:04 <azaroth> TOPIC: Minutes of last meeting
15:06:18 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-11-10
Arnaud Le Hors: http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-11-10 ←
15:06:20 <azaroth> Arnaud: I suggest we approve them, objections? Hearing none,
Arnaud Le Hors: I suggest we approve them, objections? Hearing none, ←
<azaroth> RESOLVED: Minutes of Nov 10 are approved
RESOLVED: Minutes of Nov 10 are approved ←
15:06:35 <azaroth> ... Next meeting will be next week, Nov 24.
... Next meeting will be next week, Nov 24. ←
<azaroth> topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues
15:06:47 <azaroth> Arnaud: Nothing new in tracker, one action on LD Patch.
Arnaud Le Hors: Nothing new in tracker, one action on LD Patch. ←
15:06:49 <betehess> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/ldpatch/ldpatch.html#grammar-production-add
Alexandre Bertails: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/ldpatch/ldpatch.html#grammar-production-add ←
15:07:02 <azaroth> Alexandre: Pasted in a link to the page I just pushed
Alexandre Bertails: Pasted in a link to the page I just pushed ←
15:07:22 <azaroth> ... Page about Patch.
... Page about Patch. ←
15:07:34 <azaroth> Arnaud: Close the action, and discuss later in the call
Arnaud Le Hors: Close the action, and discuss later in the call ←
15:07:37 <bblfish> action-150?
15:07:37 <trackbot> action-150 -- Alexandre Bertails to Add support for arbitrary text/turtle for the add operation in ldpatch -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-150 -- Alexandre Bertails to Add support for arbitrary text/turtle for the add operation in ldpatch -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN ←
15:07:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/150
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/150 ←
<azaroth> RESOLVED: close ACTION-150
RESOLVED: close ACTION-150 ←
15:07:46 <azaroth> TOPIC: Status of the specs
15:07:56 <azaroth> Arnaud: Eric, do we have the call yet?
Arnaud Le Hors: Eric, do we have the call yet? ←
15:07:58 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:08:06 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:08:06 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it ←
15:08:08 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:08:08 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted ←
15:08:09 <azaroth> Eric: Pinging Ralph on IRC now, not set up yet
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Pinging Ralph on IRC now, not set up yet ←
15:08:33 <azaroth> Arnaud: Need to get this done soon.
Arnaud Le Hors: Need to get this done soon. ←
15:08:46 <azaroth> ... Sent a request to move paging to CR
... Sent a request to move paging to CR ←
15:08:52 <azaroth> ... SHould be able to have a single call for both
... SHould be able to have a single call for both ←
15:09:12 <azaroth> ... Please lets not delay it any further. Out of charter at the end of the month, would like to be PR by then
... Please lets not delay it any further. Out of charter at the end of the month, would like to be PR by then ←
15:09:33 <azaroth> ... Happy at the same time to see updated reports coming in
... Happy at the same time to see updated reports coming in ←
15:09:44 <azaroth> ... Makes the story better. Thank you Steve for keeping up with them
... Makes the story better. Thank you Steve for keeping up with them ←
15:10:03 <azaroth> ... Looking at paging, what's the status of the tests?
... Looking at paging, what's the status of the tests? ←
15:10:07 <azaroth> ... Anyone working on it?
... Anyone working on it? ←
15:10:24 <azaroth> ... Have a draft ready, with pointer to suite, but more a framework and we have to develop the tests
... Have a draft ready, with pointer to suite, but more a framework and we have to develop the tests ←
15:10:35 <azaroth> ... I know Steve has been working on some, but is anyone contributing?
... I know Steve has been working on some, but is anyone contributing? ←
15:11:06 <azaroth> Steves: The bodies of the tests haven't been written, just a skeleton for the framework
Steve Speicher: The bodies of the tests haven't been written, just a skeleton for the framework ←
15:11:14 <azaroth> ... No pull requests to incorporate anything
... No pull requests to incorporate anything ←
15:11:17 <Arnaud> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/tip/tests/ldp-paging-testsuite.html
Arnaud Le Hors: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/tip/tests/ldp-paging-testsuite.html ←
15:11:24 <azaroth> ... Unless someone with commit rights has done it themselves
... Unless someone with commit rights has done it themselves ←
15:11:36 <azaroth> ... Waiting for people to provide implementations on individual tests
... Waiting for people to provide implementations on individual tests ←
15:11:52 <azaroth> Arnaud: Getting an error when I click on the link (above)
Arnaud Le Hors: Getting an error when I click on the link (above) ←
15:12:08 <azaroth> Alexandre: I think you shouldn't be using tip, use default
Alexandre Bertails: I think you shouldn't be using tip, use default ←
15:12:12 <betehess> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/tests/ldp-paging-testsuite.html
Alexandre Bertails: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/tests/ldp-paging-testsuite.html ←
15:12:50 <azaroth> Arnaud: We have a stub but who is planning to contribute tests, anyone?
Arnaud Le Hors: We have a stub but who is planning to contribute tests, anyone? ←
15:13:00 <azaroth> Steves: I plan to, but dont have a solid plan
Steve Speicher: I plan to, but dont have a solid plan ←
15:13:08 <azaroth> ... Maybe towards end of year or early next year
... Maybe towards end of year or early next year ←
15:13:13 <azaroth> Arnaud: Anyone else?
Arnaud Le Hors: Anyone else? ←
15:13:21 <azaroth> ... Henry?
... Henry? ←
15:13:23 <betehess> basically in Mercurial, tip points to the latest commit, across *all* branches, so a push to another branch will break it. Prefer a named branch itself: much more stable
Alexandre Bertails: basically in Mercurial, tip points to the latest commit, across *all* branches, so a push to another branch will break it. Prefer a named branch itself: much more stable ←
15:13:25 <azaroth> *tumbleweed*
*tumbleweed* ←
15:13:35 <bblfish> I am not implementing paging yet.
Henry Story: I am not implementing paging yet. ←
15:13:35 <SteveS> I/we are
Steve Speicher: I/we are ←
15:13:35 <azaroth> Arnaud: Who is implementing paging
Arnaud Le Hors: Who is implementing paging ←
15:13:42 <azaroth> *more tumbleweed*
*more tumbleweed* ←
15:13:49 <bblfish> I need to have a JavaScript client first then paging becomes important
Henry Story: I need to have a JavaScript client first then paging becomes important ←
15:14:00 <azaroth> Arnaud: Not completely surprised. Sandro has been open that he's not interested
Arnaud Le Hors: Not completely surprised. Sandro has been open that he's not interested ←
15:14:18 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
15:14:21 <azaroth> ... Not clear that we have enough interest to get to PR
... Not clear that we have enough interest to get to PR ←
15:14:40 <azaroth> ... need to have people implement, and get tests
... need to have people implement, and get tests ←
15:14:40 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
15:15:02 <azaroth> Henry: There's a notion of creating a special serialization of RDF, then binary paging could work
Henry Story: There's a notion of creating a special serialization of RDF, then binary paging could work ←
15:15:18 <azaroth> ... paging in HTTP, but need to organize the RDF in a specific way. Would also help for patch.
... paging in HTTP, but need to organize the RDF in a specific way. Would also help for patch. ←
15:15:33 <azaroth> ... interested in paging later
... interested in paging later ←
15:15:38 <bblfish> not yet sorry
Henry Story: not yet sorry ←
15:15:44 <azaroth> Arnaud: So not interested as currently defined
Arnaud Le Hors: So not interested as currently defined ←
15:15:52 <sandro> or maybe you wont, because you'll see it's not useful.
Sandro Hawke: or maybe you wont, because you'll see it's not useful. ←
15:15:57 <azaroth> ... Spec may remain in CR for the foreseeable future. has happened before
... Spec may remain in CR for the foreseeable future. has happened before ←
15:16:06 <azaroth> Sandro: We're not supposed to do that if the WG ends
Sandro Hawke: We're not supposed to do that if the WG ends ←
15:16:26 <azaroth> ... Used to do it, but not supposed to leave things open on REC track
... Used to do it, but not supposed to leave things open on REC track ←
15:16:37 <azaroth> Arnaud: Can turn it into a note later
Arnaud Le Hors: Can turn it into a note later ←
15:16:48 <azaroth> Sandro: Unless we're not rechartered
Sandro Hawke: Unless we're not rechartered ←
15:17:05 <azaroth> Arnaud: Assuming we're going to recharter, yes. Details to be defined but assume there'll be another WG
Arnaud Le Hors: Assuming we're going to recharter, yes. Details to be defined but assume there'll be another WG ←
15:17:13 <azaroth> ... that's it for the status of specs
... that's it for the status of specs ←
15:17:17 <azaroth> TOPIC: LDPatch
15:17:39 <azaroth> Arnaud: Proposal to publish as CR. Talked about it last week. A lack of feedback.
Arnaud Le Hors: Proposal to publish as CR. Talked about it last week. A lack of feedback. ←
15:17:40 <betehess> -1 to passing LD Patch to LC from me :-)
Alexandre Bertails: -1 to passing LD Patch to LC from me :-) ←
15:18:02 <azaroth> ... Have a stable spec, got some public comments. Not clear what's stopping us, but no one prepared to make the first move
... Have a stable spec, got some public comments. Not clear what's stopping us, but no one prepared to make the first move ←
15:18:13 <azaroth> ... Can consider it, would like to hear what people thing
... Can consider it, would like to hear what people think ←
15:18:13 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
15:18:16 <azaroth> s/thing/think
15:18:18 <azaroth> s/thing/think/
15:18:31 <azaroth> ... Can move it to CR, but if not good enough, what's wrong?
... Can move it to CR, but if not good enough, what's wrong? ←
15:18:32 <SteveS> Here is the issue tracking wiki page: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Ldpatch-issues
Steve Speicher: Here is the issue tracking wiki page: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Ldpatch-issues ←
15:18:37 <Arnaud> ack betehess
Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess ←
15:19:02 <azaroth> Alexandre: Changes from ?? commons have a big impact, and need to be reflected in the intro
Alexandre Bertails: Changes from ?? commons have a big impact, and need to be reflected in the intro ←
15:19:15 <azaroth> ... too many todos to publish now, but in a week we could reconsider
... too many todos to publish now, but in a week we could reconsider ←
15:19:24 <sandro> no on eis proposing to publish as-is
Sandro Hawke: no on eis proposing to publish as-is ←
15:19:25 <azaroth> Arnaud: Update with where you are with draft?
Arnaud Le Hors: Update with where you are with draft? ←
15:20:03 <betehess> [[
Alexandre Bertails: [[ ←
15:20:04 <betehess> * section 2: LD Patch s/format/semantics/
Alexandre Bertails: * section 2: LD Patch s/format/semantics/ ←
15:20:04 <betehess> * make it normative
Alexandre Bertails: * make it normative ←
15:20:04 <betehess> * extract examples into a 3rd non-normative section
Alexandre Bertails: * extract examples into a 3rd non-normative section ←
15:20:04 <betehess> * add HTTP semantics section with content of current 5.
Alexandre Bertails: * add HTTP semantics section with content of current 5. ←
15:20:04 <betehess> * explain UpdateList semantics with drawing
Alexandre Bertails: * explain UpdateList semantics with drawing ←
15:20:06 <betehess> * remove Abstract Syntax section
Alexandre Bertails: * remove Abstract Syntax section ←
15:20:07 <azaroth> Alexandre: Tim's comment simplifies some things. Have remaining thing to do ... address comments from Steve
Alexandre Bertails: Tim's comment simplifies some things. Have remaining thing to do ... address comments from Steve ←
15:20:08 <betehess> * move 2.3 Pathological graph at the end of introduction
Alexandre Bertails: * move 2.3 Pathological graph at the end of introduction ←
15:20:08 <sandro> where is current draft?
Sandro Hawke: where is current draft? ←
15:20:10 <betehess> ]]
Alexandre Bertails: ]] ←
15:20:17 <deiu> q+ to ask what timeframe are we looking at for publication?
Andrei Sambra: q+ to ask what timeframe are we looking at for publication? ←
15:20:23 <azaroth> ... once we've done those things we'll be happy. Can be done by end of week
... once we've done those things we'll be happy. Can be done by end of week ←
15:20:26 <deiu> ack me
Andrei Sambra: ack me ←
15:20:27 <Arnaud> ack deiu
Arnaud Le Hors: ack deiu ←
15:20:27 <Zakim> deiu, you wanted to ask what timeframe are we looking at for publication?
Zakim IRC Bot: deiu, you wanted to ask what timeframe are we looking at for publication? ←
15:20:44 <azaroth> deiu: We talked about LC for patch, but not when. Is there a deadline?
Andrei Sambra: We talked about LC for patch, but not when. Is there a deadline? ←
15:21:03 <azaroth> Arnaud: Don't have a well defined plan. Need to see what's missing
Arnaud Le Hors: Don't have a well defined plan. Need to see what's missing ←
15:21:29 <azaroth> ... progress from editors, not clear what was going to happen. Happy to give until next week
... progress from editors, not clear what was going to happen. Happy to give until next week ←
15:21:40 <azaroth> deiu: Some changes have been done, e.g. the grammar
Andrei Sambra: Some changes have been done, e.g. the grammar ←
15:21:47 <azaroth> ... Now mostly editorial changes
... Now mostly editorial changes ←
15:21:58 <azaroth> ... Once these are done it should be ready for review
... Once these are done it should be ready for review ←
15:22:23 <azaroth> Arnaud: Move to CR/LC as we have the shortened process. Cna choose to combine the two
Arnaud Le Hors: Move to CR/LC as we have the shortened process. Cna choose to combine the two ←
15:22:37 <azaroth> ... Can take advantage of that. Any comments?
... Can take advantage of that. Any comments? ←
15:22:58 <azaroth> ... invite people to comment and implement, and do disposition of comments at the same time
... invite people to comment and implement, and do disposition of comments at the same time ←
15:23:02 <azaroth> ... assume everyone is okay?
... assume everyone is okay? ←
15:23:26 <azaroth> ... Trying to figure out how to get to rec faster.
... Trying to figure out how to get to rec faster. ←
15:23:35 <azaroth> ... WG have been given the option to combine them
... WG have been given the option to combine them ←
15:23:45 <azaroth> ... Unclear if this actually helps
... Unclear if this actually helps ←
15:23:55 <azaroth> ... As have to do all the steps, just last two at the same time
... As have to do all the steps, just last two at the same time ←
15:24:07 <azaroth> ... If there's changes you have to go back to CR anyway
... If there's changes you have to go back to CR anyway ←
15:24:12 <azaroth> ... Questions? Comments?
... Questions? Comments? ←
15:24:16 <azaroth> ... Also need a test suite
... Also need a test suite ←
15:24:28 <azaroth> Alexandre: Have a test suite, finalized yesterday by pierre antoine
Alexandre Bertails: Have a test suite, finalized yesterday by pierre antoine ←
15:24:43 <azaroth> Arnaud: Give the editors a week to finish and then freeze to review for a week?
Arnaud Le Hors: Give the editors a week to finish and then freeze to review for a week? ←
15:24:56 <azaroth> Sandro: I think I heard it could be done by firday, could review on the weekend?
Sandro Hawke: I think I heard it could be done by firday, could review on the weekend? ←
15:25:05 <deiu> The spec is not that long btw
Andrei Sambra: The spec is not that long btw ←
15:25:08 <azaroth> Arnaud: Not safe to ask people to review on the weekend
Arnaud Le Hors: Not safe to ask people to review on the weekend ←
15:25:22 <azaroth> Steves: Travelling on the weekend and have a short week next week
Steve Speicher: Travelling on the weekend and have a short week next week ←
15:25:28 <azaroth> ... could try to review by Dec 1
... could try to review by Dec 1 ←
15:25:45 <azaroth> ... Would have to go through the changelog, which ones have and haven't been handled
... Would have to go through the changelog, which ones have and haven't been handled ←
15:25:55 <azaroth> ... would be nice to see on the wiki
... would be nice to see on the wiki ←
15:26:22 <azaroth> Alexandre: Biggest was tim's comment, which was some refactoring
Alexandre Bertails: Biggest was tim's comment, which was some refactoring ←
15:26:28 <azaroth> Arnaud: Any chance to have it done by friday?
Arnaud Le Hors: Any chance to have it done by friday? ←
15:26:33 <azaroth> Alexandre: I can try
Alexandre Bertails: I can try ←
15:26:43 <azaroth> Sandro: If Steve can't review by Dec 1, does it matter?
Sandro Hawke: If Steve can't review by Dec 1, does it matter? ←
15:26:48 <azaroth> Arnaud: Steve?
Arnaud Le Hors: Steve? ←
15:26:56 <azaroth> Steves: Depends when, have a hard stop at 2pm
Steve Speicher: Depends when, have a hard stop at 2pm ←
15:27:35 <azaroth> Arnaud: As soon as it's done send an email to the group. If early enough, great, otherwise we'll have to wait
Arnaud Le Hors: As soon as it's done send an email to the group. If early enough, great, otherwise we'll have to wait ←
15:27:49 <azaroth> Steves: Should we ask how many people plan to support/implement?
Steve Speicher: Should we ask how many people plan to support/implement? ←
15:27:56 <deiu> I am
Andrei Sambra: I am ←
15:27:58 <azaroth> Arnaud: Who is going to implement LD patch
Arnaud Le Hors: Who is going to implement LD patch ←
15:28:09 <azaroth> Alexandre: We have two implementations
Alexandre Bertails: We have two implementations ←
15:28:12 <bblfish> For me it's allready implemented since Alex's implementation is in Scala :-)
Henry Story: For me it's allready implemented since Alex's implementation is in Scala :-) ←
15:28:13 <SteveS> We are planning to do some patch work
Steve Speicher: We are planning to do some patch work ←
15:28:25 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
15:28:32 <azaroth> Steves: Planning to do it for some things
Steve Speicher: Planning to do it for some things ←
15:28:36 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
15:28:55 <azaroth> Henry: If Alexandre doing in scala, I don't need to implement :) but also a possible JS implementation
Henry Story: If Alexandre doing in scala, I don't need to implement :) but also a possible JS implementation ←
15:29:03 <azaroth> Arnaud: Anyone else?
Arnaud Le Hors: Anyone else? ←
15:29:04 <bblfish> due to scala-js.org
Henry Story: due to scala-js.org ←
15:29:22 <azaroth> Sandro: One of the students working for Tim will probably end up implementing it
Sandro Hawke: One of the students working for Tim will probably end up implementing it ←
15:29:30 <deiu> I think Tim already started implementing it
Andrei Sambra: I think Tim already started implementing it ←
15:29:32 <azaroth> Arnaud: I think that's it for LD patch
Arnaud Le Hors: I think that's it for LD patch ←
<azaroth> topic: Rechartering
15:29:37 <bblfish> Ie. if alex does the implementation in Scala it can be compiled to JavaScript.
Henry Story: Ie. if alex does the implementation in Scala it can be compiled to JavaScript. ←
15:29:38 <azaroth> Arnaud: let's talk about rechartering
Arnaud Le Hors: let's talk about rechartering ←
15:29:44 <sandro> betehess, JS for use in NodeJS
Sandro Hawke: betehess, JS for use in NodeJS ←
15:29:54 <azaroth> ... Sandro sent out a long list of possible features
... Sandro sent out a long list of possible features ←
15:30:03 <azaroth> ... some are familiar, others are not at all
... some are familiar, others are not at all ←
15:30:21 <azaroth> ... clear from the discussion that it resonated with some people
... clear from the discussion that it resonated with some people ←
15:30:29 <bblfish> sandro, should work in node.js and in browsers
Henry Story: sandro, should work in node.js and in browsers ←
15:30:44 <azaroth> ... up to us what we want to put in the charter. took a first shot at it
... up to us what we want to put in the charter. took a first shot at it ←
15:30:55 <azaroth> ... just a strawperson for the WG to start working on
... just a strawperson for the WG to start working on ←
15:31:20 <azaroth> ... would like to hear from people based on discussion what things we can all agree on
... would like to hear from people based on discussion what things we can all agree on ←
15:31:47 <azaroth> ... also talked about time frame. From discussion, there's agreement we don't want to rush into working on the next version
... also talked about time frame. From discussion, there's agreement we don't want to rush into working on the next version ←
15:32:02 <azaroth> ... I think there's a way to set up the schedule so we get the first 6 months as exploratory period
... I think there's a way to set up the schedule so we get the first 6 months as exploratory period ←
15:32:10 <azaroth> ... would allow us to refine what we want to do
... would allow us to refine what we want to do ←
15:32:20 <azaroth> ... suggestion is not to worry too much about that
... suggestion is not to worry too much about that ←
15:32:29 <azaroth> ... when we have a list of things we want to do, we can update the timeline
... when we have a list of things we want to do, we can update the timeline ←
15:32:48 <azaroth> ... lets focus on what we want to tackle
... lets focus on what we want to tackle ←
15:33:07 <azaroth> ... Sandro, you put up that list and got feedback. Do you have a sense what might be of interest to the larger group?
... Sandro, you put up that list and got feedback. Do you have a sense what might be of interest to the larger group? ←
15:33:14 <azaroth> Sandro: I've completely forgotten :)
Sandro Hawke: I've completely forgotten :) ←
15:33:36 <SteveS> Sandro’s email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2014Nov/0010.html
Steve Speicher: Sandro’s email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2014Nov/0010.html ←
15:33:40 <betehess> what's the link to the draft charter?
Alexandre Bertails: what's the link to the draft charter? ←
15:33:49 <SteveS> https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext2015_Charter
Steve Speicher: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext2015_Charter ←
15:33:59 <azaroth> ... Haven't read the emails since last week, don't remember. Did look over the draft charter. Could expand the list a bit.
... Haven't read the emails since last week, don't remember. Did look over the draft charter. Could expand the list a bit. ←
15:34:28 <azaroth> ... Don't really define the scope very much. thoughts about rewriting the introduction. RDF + REST ... not sure how well it has aged
... Don't really define the scope very much. thoughts about rewriting the introduction. RDF + REST ... not sure how well it has aged ←
15:34:35 <azaroth> Arnaud: Anyone?
Arnaud Le Hors: Anyone? ←
15:34:44 <bblfish> I think it works very well the RDF+REST
Henry Story: I think it works very well the RDF+REST ←
15:34:59 <azaroth> ... Clearly some of the REST community laugh at this. At the same time, it still conveys the right message?
... Clearly some of the REST community laugh at this. At the same time, it still conveys the right message? ←
15:35:04 <azaroth> Steves: What would you replace it with?
Steve Speicher: What would you replace it with? ←
15:35:06 <betehess> I don't see anything about Queries in the deliverable?
Alexandre Bertails: I don't see anything about Queries in the deliverable? ←
15:35:08 <azaroth> Sandro: Haven't gotten that far
Sandro Hawke: Haven't gotten that far ←
15:35:22 <bblfish> why are you cringing?
Henry Story: why are you cringing? ←
15:35:24 <azaroth> Steves: I had a similar reaction, but thought it hit the right nerve as well
Steve Speicher: I had a similar reaction, but thought it hit the right nerve as well ←
15:35:25 <Ashok> RDF+JSON-LD+REST ?
Ashok Malhotra: RDF+JSON-LD+REST ? ←
15:35:35 <betehess> ah, I understand, the first deliverable defers to Scope
Alexandre Bertails: ah, I understand, the first deliverable defers to Scope ←
15:35:40 <azaroth> ... trying to leverage HTTP and rich data model
... trying to leverage HTTP and rich data model ←
15:35:58 <bblfish> ?
Henry Story: ? ←
15:36:00 <azaroth> Sandro: Independence, modularity, kind of thing
Sandro Hawke: Independence, modularity, kind of thing ←
15:36:13 <bblfish> don't understand what " Independence, modularity, kind of thing" ?
Henry Story: don't understand what " Independence, modularity, kind of thing" ? ←
15:36:19 <azaroth> Ted?: Hypertect should lead to all future states?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Hypertect should lead to all future states? ←
15:36:36 <SteveS> s/Ted?/ericP/
15:36:53 <azaroth> Sandro: that we should modularize http. from REST perspective shouldn't bundle 20 functions into one thing, just add independent features. SO sort of violated rest principles
Sandro Hawke: that we should modularize http. from REST perspective shouldn't bundle 20 functions into one thing, just add independent features. SO sort of violated rest principles ←
15:36:55 <bblfish> mhh, look at HTTP spec?
Henry Story: mhh, look at HTTP spec? ←
15:37:02 <azaroth> ericP: WOrking examples that we could look at?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: WOrking examples that we could look at? ←
15:37:14 <azaroth> Arnaud: Steve posted a blog post on how to create a container
Arnaud Le Hors: Steve posted a blog post on how to create a container ←
15:37:18 <azaroth> ... got some reaction
... got some reaction ←
15:37:29 <bblfish> I agree we could have the spec simpler without LDP diect and indirect containers, that could go into a seperate spec. But otherwise...
Henry Story: I agree we could have the spec simpler without LDP diect and indirect containers, that could go into a seperate spec. But otherwise... ←
15:37:32 <azaroth> ... reflection of the sentiment of REST folk that LDP is not restful
... reflection of the sentiment of REST folk that LDP is not restful ←
15:37:35 <bblfish> what is that blog post?
Henry Story: what is that blog post? ←
15:37:41 <betehess> I think LDP *is* very RESTful
Alexandre Bertails: I think LDP *is* very RESTful ←
15:37:53 <azaroth> Steves: Don't feel like adding more to the claims. tightly coupled.
Steve Speicher: Don't feel like adding more to the claims. tightly coupled. ←
15:38:00 <bblfish> SteveS: can you point us to the blog
Steve Speicher: can you point us to the blog [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ] ←
15:38:05 <azaroth> Sandro: Took me several emails to understand. Then i got it and agreed
Sandro Hawke: Took me several emails to understand. Then i got it and agreed ←
15:38:06 <betehess> what are you guys referring to???
Alexandre Bertails: what are you guys referring to??? ←
15:38:23 <azaroth> ericP: Nice goal, or require rearchitecture?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Nice goal, or require rearchitecture? ←
15:38:25 <bblfish> ( thanks betehess, I have the same question )
Henry Story: ( thanks betehess, I have the same question ) ←
15:38:41 <azaroth> Steves: Didn't see it as a binary thing.
Steve Speicher: Didn't see it as a binary thing. ←
15:38:49 <azaroth> ... loosely coupled with tighter semantics
... loosely coupled with tighter semantics ←
15:39:08 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
15:39:13 <azaroth> Sandro: Some things end up more tightly coupled than they need to be. If loose coupling had been a goal, we would have made different design decisions
Sandro Hawke: Some things end up more tightly coupled than they need to be. If loose coupling had been a goal, we would have made different design decisions ←
15:39:18 <azaroth> Steves: Not really sure what it means
Steve Speicher: Not really sure what it means ←
15:39:21 <azaroth> Henry: URL?
Henry Story: URL? ←
15:39:24 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
15:39:27 <azaroth> Steves: A bunch of conversations
Steve Speicher: A bunch of conversations ←
15:39:43 <azaroth> ... some reaction to creating a container. POST some RDF and headers.
... some reaction to creating a container. POST some RDF and headers. ←
15:39:54 <bblfish> A god a twitter conversation! :D
Henry Story: A god a twitter conversation! :D ←
15:39:58 <azaroth> Arnaud: Reaction was on twitter, not really even a conversation
Arnaud Le Hors: Reaction was on twitter, not really even a conversation ←
15:40:03 <azaroth> ... more like a sarcastic comment
... more like a sarcastic comment ←
15:40:03 <bblfish> I am dying of laughter here
Henry Story: I am dying of laughter here ←
15:40:06 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
15:40:23 <azaroth> ... not sure how to make progress with draft charter
... not sure how to make progress with draft charter ←
15:40:26 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
15:40:40 <azaroth> ... don't think we can take on everything from Sandro's mail
... don't think we can take on everything from Sandro's mail ←
15:40:43 <azaroth> ... just a handful
... just a handful ←
15:41:08 <azaroth> ... would like people to have a look. scope has turned into a list of questions. could be different.
... would like people to have a look. scope has turned into a list of questions. could be different. ←
15:41:17 <azaroth> ... by next week, would be good if people could consider the list
... by next week, would be good if people could consider the list ←
15:41:35 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
15:41:35 <azaroth> ... questions that should not be there, ones that should and are not
... questions that should not be there, ones that should and are not ←
15:41:47 <azaroth> Sandro: By email, rather than by wiki?
Sandro Hawke: By email, rather than by wiki? ←
15:42:10 <azaroth> Arnaud: lets go thru existing list
Arnaud Le Hors: lets go thru existing list ←
15:42:18 <azaroth> ... then email after that
... then email after that ←
15:42:20 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext2015_Charter#scope
Arnaud Le Hors: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext2015_Charter#scope ←
15:42:45 <azaroth> ... same framework as the current charter
... same framework as the current charter ←
15:43:11 <azaroth> ... q1. "How can retrieval of a container and its contained resources be combined so that fewer HTTP operations are required than it is necessary with LDP 1.0?"
... q1. "How can retrieval of a container and its contained resources be combined so that fewer HTTP operations are required than it is necessary with LDP 1.0?" ←
15:43:23 <azaroth> ... what we've called inlining resources
... what we've called inlining resources ←
15:43:34 <azaroth> ... people still interested?
... people still interested? ←
15:43:43 <deiu> +1
Andrei Sambra: +1 ←
15:43:44 <bblfish> yes, sounds interesting. Requires N-Quads
Henry Story: yes, sounds interesting. Requires N-Quads ←
15:43:46 <azaroth> +1 from Stanford on this
+1 from Stanford on this ←
15:43:47 <betehess> we at Pellucid already do Inlining
Alexandre Bertails: we at Pellucid already do Inlining ←
15:43:49 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
15:44:10 <azaroth> Ashok?: We have an option where you can ask for inlining
Ashok?: We have an option where you can ask for inlining ←
15:44:11 <betehess> not sure what to standardize though
Alexandre Bertails: not sure what to standardize though ←
15:44:31 <azaroth> Sandro: WOnder a little about framing it differently
Sandro Hawke: WOnder a little about framing it differently ←
15:44:40 <azaroth> ... if we have query support you might not talk about it the same way
... if we have query support you might not talk about it the same way ←
15:44:47 <bblfish> (me either nquads or a type of literal "<...> <...> <...>"^^lang:Turtle .
Henry Story: (me either nquads or a type of literal "<...> <...> <...>"^^lang:Turtle . ←
15:44:52 <azaroth> Arnaud: Querying not there, I believe. Should we add it?
Arnaud Le Hors: Querying not there, I believe. Should we add it? ←
15:45:00 <azaroth> Sandro: From my perspective yes
Sandro Hawke: From my perspective yes ←
15:45:01 <bblfish> yes +1 for adding querying.
Henry Story: yes +1 for adding querying. ←
15:45:14 <azaroth> Arnaud, Sandro: 3 sounds like a query
Arnaud, Sandro: 3 sounds like a query ←
15:45:18 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
15:45:20 <azaroth> -1 to 3 being query
-1 to 3 being query ←
15:45:33 <betehess> are we using the queue?
Alexandre Bertails: are we using the queue? ←
15:45:46 <azaroth> Sandro: Simple filtering mechanism could subsume 1
Sandro Hawke: Simple filtering mechanism could subsume 1 ←
15:45:50 <TallTed> +1 to looking at both inline and query (which results might blend)
Ted Thibodeau: +1 to looking at both inline and query (which results might blend) ←
15:45:51 <azaroth> Steves: not sure
Steve Speicher: not sure ←
15:45:56 <ericP> query can be used to meet 1 and 3 but 3 doesn't intrinsically subsume 1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: query can be used to meet 1 and 3 but 3 doesn't intrinsically subsume 1 ←
15:46:05 <betehess> ok, even the chair ignores the queue :-)
Alexandre Bertails: ok, even the chair ignores the queue :-) ←
15:46:06 <bblfish> +1 to betehess and the use of the queue
Henry Story: +1 to betehess and the use of the queue ←
15:46:17 <SteveS> +0.5 for query, not as high for me
Steve Speicher: +0.5 for query, not as high for me ←
15:46:48 <azaroth> (some discussion)
(some discussion) ←
15:47:26 <azaroth> Arnaud: request filtering. WIth 1 and 3 I think we cover the ground.
Arnaud Le Hors: request filtering. WIth 1 and 3 I think we cover the ground. ←
15:47:33 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
15:47:35 <azaroth> ... What about q2 about multiple resources in a single request
... What about q2 about multiple resources in a single request ←
15:47:44 <azaroth> Sandro: I would generalize to also include updated
Sandro Hawke: I would generalize to also include updated ←
15:47:48 <bblfish> +1 for 2 with POST on Tar
Henry Story: +1 for 2 with POST on Tar ←
15:47:48 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:47:53 <azaroth> ... might take out HTTP
... might take out HTTP ←
15:48:04 <azaroth> ... does websockets count as HTTP?
... does websockets count as HTTP? ←
15:48:16 <azaroth> Arnaud: I don't know
Arnaud Le Hors: I don't know ←
15:48:17 <SteveS> +1 for bulk operations
Steve Speicher: +1 for bulk operations ←
15:48:21 <azaroth> ... anyone else?
... anyone else? ←
15:48:29 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:48:37 <azaroth> Henry: We should use the queue
Henry Story: We should use the queue ←
15:48:49 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
15:49:07 <azaroth> ... to go back, query is one thing and orthogonal is 1. That's GET where get contained resources.
... to go back, query is one thing and orthogonal is 1. That's GET where get contained resources. ←
15:49:36 <azaroth> ... second one is creating multiple resources, there's HTTP2/SPDY but also how do you create resources by posting a Tar for example
... second one is creating multiple resources, there's HTTP2/SPDY but also how do you create resources by posting a Tar for example ←
15:49:43 <Arnaud> ack betehess
Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess ←
15:50:05 <azaroth> Alexandre: we have already a query language that covers some of the points
Alexandre Bertails: we have already a query language that covers some of the points ←
15:50:12 <azaroth> ... do filtering, aggregation, inlining etc
... do filtering, aggregation, inlining etc ←
15:50:34 <azaroth> ... was a workshop discussed? do we want to do it?
... was a workshop discussed? do we want to do it? ←
15:50:38 <azaroth> Sandro: Not a bad idea
Sandro Hawke: Not a bad idea ←
15:51:04 <azaroth> ... could try to reach out to new people, having a workshop on standard data query languages or narrower
... could try to reach out to new people, having a workshop on standard data query languages or narrower ←
15:51:20 <azaroth> Arnaud: concern would be how much of that we want to do as part of the group
Arnaud Le Hors: concern would be how much of that we want to do as part of the group ←
15:51:28 <azaroth> ... hope we don't get into defining a query language
... hope we don't get into defining a query language ←
15:51:36 <azaroth> Sandro: That's why we haven't done it so far
Sandro Hawke: That's why we haven't done it so far ←
15:51:51 <azaroth> Alexandre: we published a blog post a few weeks ago, most would be open source
Alexandre Bertails: we published a blog post a few weeks ago, most would be open source ←
15:52:06 <azaroth> ... main thing is we want other people to work on the same thing
... main thing is we want other people to work on the same thing ←
15:52:17 <azaroth> ... would need to become members, then could do a submission
... would need to become members, then could do a submission ←
15:52:26 <bblfish> I think there is something about the need for a query langauge for LDP, so again either narrow SPARQL down to LDP or a new language
Henry Story: I think there is something about the need for a query langauge for LDP, so again either narrow SPARQL down to LDP or a new language ←
15:52:34 <azaroth> Sandro: CG could be a reasonable place. Maybe do that and bring them into the WG if they come up with something
Sandro Hawke: CG could be a reasonable place. Maybe do that and bring them into the WG if they come up with something ←
15:52:37 <azaroth> ... like JSON-LD
... like JSON-LD ←
15:52:39 <Ashok> Alexandre, can you post a ptr?
Ashok Malhotra: Alexandre, can you post a ptr? ←
15:53:07 <azaroth> Arnaud: Some kind of workshop interesting. Like a WG meeting, but open as invite the world. needs travel, so added cost
Arnaud Le Hors: Some kind of workshop interesting. Like a WG meeting, but open as invite the world. needs travel, so added cost ←
15:53:29 <SteveS> Modifying my answer: query could be a bit chunk of work, it would be good to understand in more detail what is broken with current approaches (SPARQL) and seen some work that has shown promise
Steve Speicher: Modifying my answer: query could be a bit chunk of work, it would be good to understand in more detail what is broken with current approaches (SPARQL) and seen some work that has shown promise ←
15:53:29 <azaroth> Sandro: WGs do stakeholder meetings. WG meeting, then days of public meeting with others who have some connection, like use cases or adopters
Sandro Hawke: WGs do stakeholder meetings. WG meeting, then days of public meeting with others who have some connection, like use cases or adopters ←
15:53:34 <betehess> here is the pointer of our work on what we internally call LDQL: http://io.pellucid.com/blog/exposing-resources-in-datomic-using-linked-data
Alexandre Bertails: here is the pointer of our work on what we internally call LDQL: http://io.pellucid.com/blog/exposing-resources-in-datomic-using-linked-data ←
15:53:39 <azaroth> Arnaud: Timing of that ?
Arnaud Le Hors: Timing of that ? ←
15:53:50 <azaroth> Sandro: Within the next 6 months
Sandro Hawke: Within the next 6 months ←
15:54:06 <azaroth> ... good to colocate it? Could do a couple of events at related conferences...
... good to colocate it? Could do a couple of events at related conferences... ←
15:54:14 <betehess> +1 to colocate it
Alexandre Bertails: +1 to colocate it ←
15:54:22 <azaroth> Arnaud: How do we charter to accomodate work in that space?
Arnaud Le Hors: How do we charter to accomodate work in that space? ←
15:54:30 <azaroth> Sandro: Already kind of doing it, given the questions
Sandro Hawke: Already kind of doing it, given the questions ←
15:54:55 <azaroth> ... could be more specific ... is there a better way to extract something by a query information about the container and its members
... could be more specific ... is there a better way to extract something by a query information about the container and its members ←
15:55:11 <azaroth> -1 to query language definition
-1 to query language definition ←
15:55:23 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
15:55:25 <bblfish> +1 to 4
Henry Story: +1 to 4 ←
15:55:29 <azaroth> Arnaud: What about q4 -- how can a client be notified?
Arnaud Le Hors: What about q4 -- how can a client be notified? ←
15:55:35 <azaroth> Ashok: This is Sandro's push ?
Ashok Malhotra: This is Sandro's push ? ←
15:55:36 <bblfish> +1 to 4
Henry Story: +1 to 4 ←
15:55:37 <betehess> 4. is interesting but I don't see it part of LDP
Alexandre Bertails: 4. is interesting but I don't see it part of LDP ←
15:55:51 <azaroth> Sandro: Not just a resource, but anything, eg query results
Sandro Hawke: Not just a resource, but anything, eg query results ←
15:56:12 <bblfish> agree that this is query based
Henry Story: agree that this is query based ←
15:56:14 <azaroth> ... you have a container of millions of resources and want to know what happens in the container, sounds like a query
... you have a container of millions of resources and want to know what happens in the container, sounds like a query ←
15:56:14 <TallTed> PubSubHub? RSS feed?
Ted Thibodeau: PubSubHub? RSS feed? ←
15:56:16 <SteveS> +1 to 4, work out either/both push or pull model
Steve Speicher: +1 to 4, work out either/both push or pull model ←
15:56:39 <azaroth> +1 to 4, in conjunction with SocialWeb WG activity streams
+1 to 4, in conjunction with SocialWeb WG activity streams ←
15:56:51 <bblfish> mhh. how do you ask that something has changed?
Henry Story: mhh. how do you ask that something has changed? ←
15:56:56 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
15:57:14 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
15:57:31 <azaroth> Henry: You can do in sparql, seems like something like sparql update. asking to query a change
Henry Story: You can do in sparql, seems like something like sparql update. asking to query a change ←
15:57:44 <azaroth> Sandro: 3 different research implementations trying to do it with sparql standing queries
Sandro Hawke: 3 different research implementations trying to do it with sparql standing queries ←
15:57:48 <TallTed> SPARQL Triggers.
Ted Thibodeau: SPARQL Triggers. ←
15:57:57 <TallTed> yay, reinventing SQL!
Ted Thibodeau: yay, reinventing SQL! ←
15:57:59 <azaroth> ... C-Sparql might be most well known, continuous sparql
... C-Sparql might be most well known, continuous sparql ←
15:58:19 <azaroth> Arnaud: q5
Arnaud Le Hors: q5 ←
15:58:23 <bblfish> TallTed: not re-inventing, just improving by starting with more solid foundations :-)
Ted Thibodeau: not re-inventing, just improving by starting with more solid foundations :-) [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ] ←
15:58:31 <SteveS> +1 for adding yet another link header ;)
Steve Speicher: +1 for adding yet another link header ;) ←
15:58:45 <azaroth> ... don't want to do it for every resource, so need a mechanism to do for a set of resources
... don't want to do it for every resource, so need a mechanism to do for a set of resources ←
15:58:56 <azaroth> Sandro: Generalize beyond sparql, might want to do it for description mechanism
Sandro Hawke: Generalize beyond sparql, might want to do it for description mechanism ←
15:59:25 <azaroth> ... link header doesn't work, could be end point that handles 10M resources, don't want to access them all
... link header doesn't work, could be end point that handles 10M resources, don't want to access them all ←
15:59:45 <azaroth> ... something like .well-known
... something like .well-known ←
15:59:54 <SteveS> +1 to sandro, for generalizing it for things like SPARQL and event mechanism
Steve Speicher: +1 to sandro, for generalizing it for things like SPARQL and event mechanism ←
16:00:11 <azaroth> Arnaud: Out of time. should focus on that. Will send updated list to mailing list, can comment on it
Arnaud Le Hors: Out of time. should focus on that. Will send updated list to mailing list, can comment on it ←
16:00:21 <azaroth> ... so a week from now we have a better list
... so a week from now we have a better list ←
16:00:30 <bblfish> ok, got to take train to Paris from Cannes now ...
Henry Story: ok, got to take train to Paris from Cannes now ... ←
16:00:30 <azaroth> ... thanks all, thanks Rob for scribing, talk to you next week
... thanks all, thanks Rob for scribing, talk to you next week ←
16:00:31 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:00:32 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ashok_Malhotra ←
16:00:32 <Zakim> -SteveS
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveS ←
16:00:33 <Zakim> -Alexandre
Zakim IRC Bot: -Alexandre ←
16:00:35 <bblfish> bye
Henry Story: bye ←
16:00:35 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
16:00:37 <Zakim> -TallTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed ←
16:00:41 <Zakim> -bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: -bblfish ←
16:00:42 <Zakim> -azaroth
Zakim IRC Bot: -azaroth ←
16:00:44 <Zakim> -deiu
Zakim IRC Bot: -deiu ←
16:00:57 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
16:00:57 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended ←
16:00:57 <Zakim> Attendees were azaroth, Alexandre, Arnaud, Sandro, EricP, deiu, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveS, +33.6.47.14.aaaa, bblfish, TallTed
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were azaroth, Alexandre, Arnaud, Sandro, EricP, deiu, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveS, +33.6.47.14.aaaa, bblfish, TallTed ←
<azaroth> Present: azaroth, Alexandre, Arnaud, Sandro, EricP, deiu, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveS, bblfish, TallTed
Formatted by CommonScribe