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Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 13 October 2014

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.10.13
Present
Robert Sanderson, Cody Burleson, Arnaud Le Hors, John Arwe, Ashok Malhotra, Nandana Mihindukulasooriya, Roger Menday, Miguel Aragón, Henry Story, Sandro Hawke, Eric Prud'hommeaux
Chair
Arnaud Le Hors
Scribe
Roger Menday
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Minutes of 6 October approved link
Topics
13:59:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/13-ldp-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/13-ldp-irc

13:59:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public

13:59:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP

13:59:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started

13:59:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
13:59:20 <trackbot> Date: 13 October 2014
13:59:28 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

13:59:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:00:18 <codyburleson> Zakim, IPcaller is me.

Cody Burleson: Zakim, IPcaller is me.

14:00:18 <Zakim> +codyburleson; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +codyburleson; got it

14:00:59 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

14:01:28 <Zakim> +JohnArwe

Zakim IRC Bot: +JohnArwe

14:01:53 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ashok_Malhotra

14:02:32 <azaroth> zakim, who is here?

Robert Sanderson: zakim, who is here?

14:02:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Ashok_Malhotra

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Ashok_Malhotra

14:02:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see MiguelAraCo, JohnArwe, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, codyburleson, azaroth, bblfish, nmihindu, tommorris, taaz, Arnaud, sandro, Yves, ericP, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see MiguelAraCo, JohnArwe, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, codyburleson, azaroth, bblfish, nmihindu, tommorris, taaz, Arnaud, sandro, Yves, ericP, trackbot

14:03:42 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

14:04:13 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9

14:04:48 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P9 is me

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, ??P9 is me

14:04:48 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +nmihindu; got it

14:04:54 <nmihindu> Zakim, mute me

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, mute me

14:04:54 <Zakim> nmihindu should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: nmihindu should now be muted

14:05:49 <roger> Zakim, P8 is me

Roger Menday: Zakim, P8 is me

14:05:49 <Zakim> sorry, roger, I do not recognize a party named 'P8'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, roger, I do not recognize a party named 'P8'

14:05:55 <roger> Zakim, ??P8 is me

Roger Menday: Zakim, ??P8 is me

14:05:55 <Zakim> +roger; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +roger; got it

14:05:58 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone?

14:05:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Ashok_Malhotra, roger, nmihindu (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Ashok_Malhotra, roger, nmihindu (muted)

14:08:22 <roger> Scribe: Roger

(Scribe set to Roger Menday)

<roger> chair: Arnaud
<roger> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.10.13
<roger> topic: Admin

1. Admin

14:08:26 <MiguelAraCo> Zakim, I'm with codyburleson

Miguel Aragón: Zakim, I'm with codyburleson

14:08:26 <Zakim> +MiguelAraCo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MiguelAraCo; got it

14:08:40 <Arnaud> Proposal: Approve the minutes of the 6 October teleconf: http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-10-06

PROPOSED: Approve the minutes of the 6 October teleconf: http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-10-06

14:08:48 <Ashok> scribenick: roger
14:09:10 <roger> Resolved: Minutes of 6 October approved

RESOLVED: Minutes of 6 October approved

14:10:13 <roger> Topic: LDP Spec

2. LDP Spec

14:10:45 <roger> Plan is to try to get to proposed recommendation.

Plan is to try to get to proposed recommendation.

14:11:12 <roger> Arnaud is maintaining a disposition of comments document.

Arnaud is maintaining a disposition of comments document.

14:11:39 <roger> This is useful because there has been an *avalanche* of comments recently :)

This is useful because there has been an *avalanche* of comments recently :)

14:15:06 <roger> Rob had a comment about the use of the slug vs. relative URIs in POSTed content.

Rob had a comment about the use of the slug vs. relative URIs in POSTed content.

14:17:47 <JohnArwe> zakim, who is speaking?

John Arwe: zakim, who is speaking?

14:17:57 <Zakim> JohnArwe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: azaroth (14%), codyburleson (95%), JohnArwe (20%), roger (4%)

Zakim IRC Bot: JohnArwe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: azaroth (14%), codyburleson (95%), JohnArwe (20%), roger (4%)

14:18:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:18:47 <roger> Miguel has a some concern about how the spec is interpreted, and how if this might have an effect on interoperability.

Miguel has a some concern about how the spec is interpreted, and how if this might have an effect on interoperability.

14:18:47 <bblfish> Zakim, IPcaller is me

Henry Story: Zakim, IPcaller is me

14:18:47 <Zakim> +bblfish; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bblfish; got it

14:19:00 <bblfish> hi

Henry Story: hi

14:20:31 <roger> Rob: maybe we could clarify some of these issues in the companion documents

Robert Sanderson: maybe we could clarify some of these issues in the companion documents

14:21:13 <roger> @John - that's it !

@John - that's it !

14:23:29 <roger> some discussion about the "interaction model" ...

some discussion about the "interaction model" ...

14:27:02 <codyburleson> q+

Cody Burleson: q+

14:27:20 <JohnArwe> interaction model use case: I want to make a read-only copy (archive) of a container ... so its content looks like a container, but it doesn't act like one.  e.g. if a member is deleted, the copy does not change.

John Arwe: interaction model use case: I want to make a read-only copy (archive) of a container ... so its content looks like a container, but it doesn't act like one. e.g. if a member is deleted, the copy does not change.

14:27:22 <bblfish> It's a distinction between what the server says and what the content says. And we decided the servers statements go in the header

Henry Story: It's a distinction between what the server says and what the content says. And we decided the servers statements go in the header

14:27:33 <azaroth> q+

Robert Sanderson: q+

14:27:34 <Arnaud> ack codyburleson

Arnaud Le Hors: ack codyburleson

14:27:42 <bblfish> So if the header says something is an LDPC then that's what the client goes on

Henry Story: So if the header says something is an LDPC then that's what the client goes on

14:28:57 <JohnArwe> there's an existing note on 5.2.3.4 (containers can create containers) that we could add to if we decide clarifications are needed.

John Arwe: there's an existing note on 5.2.3.4 (containers can create containers) that we could add to if we decide clarifications are needed.

14:28:59 <Arnaud> ack azaroth

Arnaud Le Hors: ack azaroth

14:29:13 <roger> Cody: whats to indicate to the server about the target resource and the _context_ about how it should be treated.

Cody Burleson: whats to indicate to the server about the target resource and the _context_ about how it should be treated.

14:29:15 <JohnArwe> ...since that's where interaction model comes up, seems like a logical place.

John Arwe: ...since that's where interaction model comes up, seems like a logical place.

14:29:21 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

14:30:28 <MiguelAraCo> q+

Miguel Aragón: q+

14:30:36 <Arnaud> ack MiguelAraCo

Arnaud Le Hors: ack MiguelAraCo

14:31:33 <roger> Miguel, thinks that section 5.2.3.4 needs a review

Miguel, thinks that section 5.2.3.4 needs a review

14:32:28 <roger> John suggests to Miguel to propose how 5.2.3.4 should be changed.

John suggests to Miguel to propose how 5.2.3.4 should be changed.

14:32:49 <Arnaud> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/ldp.html#ldpc-post-createrdf

Arnaud Le Hors: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/ldp.html#ldpc-post-createrdf

14:35:09 <roger> Miguel thinks that the interaction model is something the client indicates to the server ... (if i understand correctly)

Miguel thinks that the interaction model is something the client indicates to the server ... (if i understand correctly)

14:35:35 <JohnArwe> Miguel, were the requests you were talking about ONLY post to a container (what 5.2.3.4 covers) or every request to your server?

John Arwe: Miguel, were the requests you were talking about ONLY post to a container (what 5.2.3.4 covers) or every request to your server?

14:37:05 <azaroth> q+

Robert Sanderson: q+

14:37:17 <azaroth> q-

Robert Sanderson: q-

14:37:19 <azaroth> :)

Robert Sanderson:

14:38:21 <azaroth> s/:)//
14:42:12 <JohnArwe> so their server conflicts with 5.2.3.4 bullets 1 and 2, because those MUSTs apply for the life of the created resource and theirs are dynamically polymorphic

John Arwe: so their server conflicts with 5.2.3.4 bullets 1 and 2, because those MUSTs apply for the life of the created resource and theirs are dynamically polymorphic

14:43:46 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

14:46:32 <azaroth> Is there a test for this?

Robert Sanderson: Is there a test for this?

14:46:50 <azaroth> I think that our server will run afoul of the same issue.

Robert Sanderson: I think that our server will run afoul of the same issue.

14:48:20 <JohnArwe> I seriously doubt there's a test for NOT doing X, in this case.

John Arwe: I seriously doubt there's a test for NOT doing X, in this case.

14:48:44 <nmihindu> azaroth, it would be hard to check automatically whether the interaction model stays the same in the test suite I guess.

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: azaroth, it would be hard to check automatically whether the interaction model stays the same in the test suite I guess.

14:49:54 <JohnArwe> ... right, the old "testing a negative is hard" problem

John Arwe: ... right, the old "testing a negative is hard" problem

14:49:58 <azaroth> A possible test:  Create a resource with LDPR interaction model, with body that describes a container, and then try to POST to the resource.

Robert Sanderson: A possible test: Create a resource with LDPR interaction model, with body that describes a container, and then try to POST to the resource.

14:50:15 <azaroth> Which we'll fail, as we treat every resource as a container unless the request specifies otherwise

Robert Sanderson: Which we'll fail, as we treat every resource as a container unless the request specifies otherwise

14:50:42 <azaroth> And I think, if I understand, Miguel will also fail

Robert Sanderson: And I think, if I understand, Miguel will also fail

14:51:35 <bblfish> To me it makes sense to turn an LDPR into an LDPC

Henry Story: To me it makes sense to turn an LDPR into an LDPC

14:51:59 <bblfish> or rather to "discover" that an LDPR is an LDPC

Henry Story: or rather to "discover" that an LDPR is an LDPC

14:52:36 <roger> Cody: the first bullet of 5.2.3.4 might cause some issues, but, Arnaud view is that Cody's implementation is just offering some extensions on top of what is spec'ed. So, it's not a conflict.

Cody Burleson: the first bullet of 5.2.3.4 might cause some issues, but, Arnaud view is that Cody's implementation is just offering some extensions on top of what is spec'ed. So, it's not a conflict.

14:52:53 <JohnArwe> azaroth, when you create an LDPR (sic), do you just refuse all Posts then?  nothing in LDP forces you to do that, it's just that LDP doesn't constrain what any post to an ldpr does.

John Arwe: azaroth, when you create an LDPR (sic), do you just refuse all Posts then? nothing in LDP forces you to do that, it's just that LDP doesn't constrain what any post to an ldpr does.

14:53:51 <roger> subTopic: Indirect Container issues

2.1. Indirect Container issues

14:54:01 <roger> ... and implementation issues

... and implementation issues

14:54:26 <Arnaud> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/tests/reports/ldp.html#indirectcontainer-must

Arnaud Le Hors: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/tests/reports/ldp.html#indirectcontainer-must

14:54:55 <azaroth> JohnArwe: Due to the polymorphism you would need to specify that the interaction model was LDPR on the POST as well for us to reject it.

John Arwe: Due to the polymorphism you would need to specify that the interaction model was LDPR on the POST as well for us to reject it. [ Scribe Assist by Robert Sanderson ]

14:55:42 <azaroth> azaroth: will respond to your strawman on list as well, as we're out of time today

Robert Sanderson: will respond to your strawman on list as well, as we're out of time today [ Scribe Assist by Robert Sanderson ]

14:55:54 <JohnArwe> fair enough, but I think it's still true that LDP does not force you to refuse Posts to LDPRs.

John Arwe: fair enough, but I think it's still true that LDP does not force you to refuse Posts to LDPRs.

14:55:59 <azaroth> Thanks for that mail, it was spot on.

Robert Sanderson: Thanks for that mail, it was spot on.

14:57:23 <roger> Arnaud: If we claim to have implementations of IndirectContainer, but, don't seem to have test passes for the relevant tests, where does this leave us ?

Arnaud Le Hors: If we claim to have implementations of IndirectContainer, but, don't seem to have test passes for the relevant tests, where does this leave us ?

14:58:04 <azaroth> JohnArwe: Agreed that's our implementation choice rather than a requirement of the spec.  4.2.3 is pretty clear.

John Arwe: Agreed that's our implementation choice rather than a requirement of the spec. 4.2.3 is pretty clear. [ Scribe Assist by Robert Sanderson ]

14:58:47 <roger> Next week: vote : IC or non-IC ? decision time ...

Next week: vote : IC or non-IC ? decision time ...

14:58:52 <roger> Topic: Paging

3. Paging

15:02:03 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDP_Paging_LC2_Comments

Arnaud Le Hors: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDP_Paging_LC2_Comments

15:02:35 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ashok_Malhotra

15:02:37 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

15:02:39 <Zakim> -roger

Zakim IRC Bot: -roger

15:02:42 <Zakim> -JohnArwe

Zakim IRC Bot: -JohnArwe

15:02:44 <Zakim> -nmihindu

Zakim IRC Bot: -nmihindu

15:02:44 <Zakim> -azaroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -azaroth

15:02:46 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

15:02:49 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

15:02:52 <Zakim> -codyburleson

Zakim IRC Bot: -codyburleson

15:02:54 <Zakim> -bblfish

Zakim IRC Bot: -bblfish

15:02:56 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended

15:02:56 <Zakim> Attendees were azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Ashok_Malhotra, nmihindu, roger, MiguelAraCo, bblfish, Sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Ashok_Malhotra, nmihindu, roger, MiguelAraCo, bblfish, Sandro, ericP

<roger> Present: azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Ashok_Malhotra, nmihindu, roger, MiguelAraCo, bblfish, Sandro, ericP


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