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Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 06 October 2014

Agenda
https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.10.06
Present
Robert Sanderson, Cody Burleson, Arnaud Le Hors, Andrei Sambra, Steve Speicher, Ashok Malhotra, Roger Menday, Henry Story, Sandro Hawke, Ted Thibodeau, Nandana Mihindukulasooriya
Chair
Arnaud Le Hors
Scribe
Robert Sanderson
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Approved Minutes of 29 September 2014 http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-09-29 link
Topics
13:58:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/06-ldp-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/06-ldp-irc

13:58:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public

13:58:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP

13:58:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started

13:58:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
13:58:11 <trackbot> Date: 06 October 2014
13:58:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

13:58:47 <codyburleson> Zakim, IPcaller is me

Cody Burleson: Zakim, IPcaller is me

13:58:48 <Zakim> +codyburleson; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +codyburleson; got it

13:59:20 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

14:00:53 <azaroth> zakim, who is here?

Robert Sanderson: zakim, who is here?

14:00:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud

14:00:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see SteveS, Zakim, RRSAgent, codyburleson, azaroth, TallTed, deiu, nmihindu, bblfish, Arnaud, tommorris, taaz, sandro, Yves, ericP, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see SteveS, Zakim, RRSAgent, codyburleson, azaroth, TallTed, deiu, nmihindu, bblfish, Arnaud, tommorris, taaz, sandro, Yves, ericP, trackbot

14:01:09 <Zakim> +deiu

Zakim IRC Bot: +deiu

14:01:42 <Arnaud> zakim, mute codyburleson

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, mute codyburleson

14:01:42 <Zakim> codyburleson should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: codyburleson should now be muted

14:02:04 <Zakim> +[IBM]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM]

14:02:05 <SteveS> zakim, [IBM] is me

Steve Speicher: zakim, [IBM] is me

14:02:05 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveS; got it

14:02:22 <codyburleson> That's no me. I'm muted on my Skype.

Cody Burleson: That's no me. I'm muted on my Skype.

14:02:48 <Arnaud> well, the noise stopped

Arnaud Le Hors: well, the noise stopped

14:03:09 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone?

14:03:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, codyburleson (muted), Arnaud, deiu, SteveS

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see azaroth, codyburleson (muted), Arnaud, deiu, SteveS

14:03:55 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ashok_Malhotra

14:04:57 <Zakim> +Roger

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roger

14:05:28 <azaroth> scribenick: azaroth

(Scribe set to Robert Sanderson)

<azaroth> chair: Arnaud
<azaroth> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.10.06
14:05:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:06:07 <bblfish> zakim, [IPCaller] is me

Henry Story: zakim, [IPCaller] is me

14:06:07 <Zakim> +bblfish; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bblfish; got it

14:06:19 <bblfish> hi

Henry Story: hi

<azaroth> topic: Admin

1. Admin

14:06:47 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Proposal to approve the minutes from last week? Objections? Resolution of opening issue 101.

Arnaud Le Hors: Proposal to approve the minutes from last week? Objections? Resolution of opening ISSUE-101.

14:06:51 <azaroth> Resolved: Approved Minutes of 29 September 2014 http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-09-29

RESOLVED: Approved Minutes of 29 September 2014 http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-09-29

14:06:59 <azaroth> ... Next meeting will be next week, Oct 13.

... Next meeting will be next week, Oct 13.

14:07:10 <azaroth> ... No reason not to have this week.

... No reason not to have this week.

14:07:15 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

14:07:19 <azaroth> topic: Tracking of actions and issues

2. Tracking of actions and issues

<azaroth> Arnaud: anything there?

Arnaud Le Hors: anything there?

14:07:27 <Ashok> It's Columbus Day!

Ashok Malhotra: It's Columbus Day!

14:07:31 <TallTed> Oct 13 == Columbus Day.  regrets from me.

Ted Thibodeau: Oct 13 == Columbus Day. regrets from me.

14:07:34 <azaroth> ... Not going to know about 148, and one is an editor's thing.

... Not going to know about 148, and one is an editor's thing.

14:07:49 <deiu> Same here

Andrei Sambra: Same here

14:07:50 <SteveS> Oct 13, regrets for me as well

Steve Speicher: Oct 13, regrets for me as well

14:07:52 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

14:08:19 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16

14:08:28 <azaroth> ... Oct 13 is Columbus Day. Lots of people who won't be here next week.

... Oct 13 is Columbus Day. Lots of people who won't be here next week.

14:08:29 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

14:08:29 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it

14:08:30 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P16 is me

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, ??P16 is me

14:08:30 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +nmihindu; got it

14:08:32 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

14:08:32 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

14:08:36 <nmihindu> Zakim, mute me

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, mute me

14:08:36 <Zakim> nmihindu should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: nmihindu should now be muted

14:09:03 <azaroth> ... Next week is some form of holiday for some people, but we'll still have a call and try to have a status check

... Next week is some form of holiday for some people, but we'll still have a call and try to have a status check

<azaroth> topic: WG Rechartering

3. WG Rechartering

14:09:15 <azaroth> ... Let's talk about chartering the ??? WG

... Let's talk about chartering the ??? WG

14:09:35 <azaroth> ... Original charter expired 1st June, asked for extension until 1 Dec, which is coming up quickly

... Original charter expired 1st June, asked for extension until 1 Dec, which is coming up quickly

14:09:40 <azaroth> ... Need to think about rechartering

... Need to think about rechartering

14:09:46 <azaroth> ... Two arguments to bring up

... Two arguments to bring up

14:10:03 <azaroth> ... 1 -- had discussions about if we should have a pause or recharter right away

... 1 -- had discussions about if we should have a pause or recharter right away

14:10:09 <azaroth> ... what would we do next? have a big wishlist

... what would we do next? have a big wishlist

14:10:19 <azaroth> ... So we would have work to do

... So we would have work to do

14:10:26 <azaroth> ... Specs would be put in limbo if we were to stop

... Specs would be put in limbo if we were to stop

14:10:41 <azaroth> ... Advised by Phil Archer that it would be wiser to keep going

... Advised by Phil Archer that it would be wiser to keep going

14:10:49 <azaroth> ... Might lose momentum and get people back

... Might lose momentum and not get people back

14:11:04 <azaroth> ... so assume we'll keep going and ask for a new WG charter

... so assume we'll keep going and ask for a new WG charter

14:11:19 <azaroth> ... bar is higher than an extension -- there scope doesn't change and AC doesn't get asked

... bar is higher than an extension -- there scope doesn't change and AC doesn't get asked

14:11:28 <azaroth> ... Just W3CM who approves extensions

... Just W3CM who approves extensions

14:11:37 <azaroth> ... For rechartering it goes to the AC for review

... For rechartering it goes to the AC for review

14:11:50 <TallTed> s/Might lose momentum and get people back/Might lose momentum and not get people back/
14:11:59 <azaroth> ... We have to develop the charter and need to define scope and deliverables

... We have to develop the charter and need to define scope and deliverables

14:12:14 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext

Arnaud Le Hors: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext

14:12:36 <azaroth> ... Have a big wishlist, not to do now, but should have a look and decide what to have as deliverables

... Have a big wishlist, not to do now, but should have a look and decide what to have as deliverables

14:13:06 <azaroth> ... Some might wait for beyond this next charter. Have to be humble in what we can accomplish

... Some might wait for beyond this next charter. Have to be humble in what we can accomplish

14:13:24 <azaroth> ... 2 -- the timing.  As there's an AC review for 4 weeks, would like to have it ready in the next few weeks

... 2 -- the timing. As there's an AC review for 4 weeks, would like to have it ready in the next few weeks

14:14:01 <azaroth> ... in order to have it ready for Dec 1.  Unlikely to make a fuss if it's a few weeks later, wouldn't have to stop working.

... in order to have it ready for Dec 1. Unlikely to make a fuss if it's a few weeks later, wouldn't have to stop working.

14:14:36 <azaroth> ... Should put a new wiki page for the charter and ask for input

... Should put a new wiki page for the charter and ask for input

14:14:56 <azaroth> ... Is everyone here planning to keep participating?

... Is everyone here planning to keep participating?

14:15:02 <azaroth> ... Anyone going to drop off

... Anyone going to drop off

14:15:07 <bblfish> ?

Henry Story: ?

14:15:07 <SteveS> I live for these calls

Steve Speicher: I live for these calls

14:15:09 <azaroth> +1 to continue participation

+1 to continue participation

14:15:19 <roger> +1

Roger Menday: +1

14:15:20 <deiu> +1

Andrei Sambra: +1

14:15:22 <bblfish> +1 ( depends of course on what's in the charter )

Henry Story: +1 ( depends of course on what's in the charter )

14:15:27 <nmihindu> +1 for continue participation

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 for continue participation

14:15:33 <Ashok> +1

Ashok Malhotra: +1

14:15:37 <codyburleson> +1

Cody Burleson: +1

14:15:50 <azaroth> Arnaud: Thank you guys.  I'll work on a first draft charter

Arnaud Le Hors: Thank you guys. I'll work on a first draft charter

14:16:04 <azaroth> ... LDP 1.1 where we add a few things, but might be other modules

... LDP 1.1 where we add a few things, but might be other modules

14:16:13 <azaroth> ... access control might be deliverable on its own

... access control might be deliverable on its own

14:16:22 <azaroth> ... if people have strong feelings, please send an email to the list

... if people have strong feelings, please send an email to the list

14:16:57 <azaroth> ... appreciate input from the group, and we'll do whatever we want to do

... appreciate input from the group, and we'll do whatever we want to do

14:17:02 <azaroth> Sandro: Can I put a pitch in?

Sandro Hawke: Can I put a pitch in?

14:17:26 <azaroth> ... What level of interop we actually have before deciding what to do next? What cool things do we have now between systems?

... What level of interop we actually have before deciding what to do next? What cool things do we have now between systems?

14:17:36 <azaroth> ... don't have any idea how LDP is going to be used in industry for real

... don't have any idea how LDP is going to be used in industry for real

14:17:46 <azaroth> ... no need to charge ahead before we know that

... no need to charge ahead before we know that

14:17:47 <bblfish> Sandro's point makes sense

Henry Story: Sandro's point makes sense

14:17:57 <azaroth> ... could write a charter to say we figure out what to do first

... could write a charter to say we figure out what to do first

14:18:07 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Better to recharter right away or wait?

Arnaud Le Hors: Better to recharter right away or wait?

14:18:15 <bblfish> We could have a charter point: do what the Socail Web WG wants to do but using LDP

Henry Story: We could have a charter point: do what the Socail Web WG wants to do but using LDP

14:18:42 <azaroth> Sandro:  Depends what people want to do next?  I know what I personally want, but no evidence. Don't know what users need, so hard to figure out

Sandro Hawke: Depends what people want to do next? I know what I personally want, but no evidence. Don't know what users need, so hard to figure out

14:18:48 <azaroth> ... we could do that with a WG too

... we could do that with a WG too

14:18:59 <azaroth> Arnaud:  W3C membership point of view, harder to get new WGs

Arnaud Le Hors: W3C membership point of view, harder to get new WGs

14:19:06 <azaroth> ... much easier to recharter.

... much easier to recharter.

14:19:17 <azaroth> Sandro: Do we not need 20 members to recharter?

Sandro Hawke: Do we not need 20 members to recharter?

14:19:20 <azaroth> Arnaud: I don't know

Arnaud Le Hors: I don't know

14:19:28 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

14:19:36 <azaroth> ... Psychologically, it's easier for them to say sure keep working

... Psychologically, it's easier for them to say sure keep working

14:19:45 <azaroth> ... stop and come back might need to have a new group

... stop and come back might need to have a new group

14:19:52 <azaroth> ... nothing against LDP, just typical thinking

... nothing against LDP, just typical thinking

14:20:09 <azaroth> Sandro: May have a hard time making the case there's enough work

Sandro Hawke: May have a hard time making the case there's enough work

14:20:39 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Sandro was referring to a new rule -- 5%, 20 members, have to support the charter

Arnaud Le Hors: Sandro was referring to a new rule -- 5%, 20 members, have to support the charter

14:20:48 <azaroth> ... Left to director's discretion

... Left to director's discretion

14:20:58 <azaroth> ... now it's a set number that must express explicit support

... now it's a set number that must express explicit support

14:21:10 <azaroth> Sandro:  If not 5% then special reasoning is needed for it to go forwards

Sandro Hawke: If not 5% then special reasoning is needed for it to go forwards

14:21:10 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

14:21:28 <azaroth> Henry:  Interesting. Have the social WG going on. Can't imagine too much them using LDP

Henry Story: Interesting. Have the social WG going on. Can't imagine too much them using LDP

14:21:40 <azaroth> ... very disparate groups

... very disparate groups

14:22:08 <azaroth> ... What they want to do is perfect for LDP though. Working out use cases for distributed social groups?

... What they want to do is perfect for LDP though. Working out use cases for distributed social groups?

14:22:24 <azaroth> Arnaud: Use cases are out there, including in W3C to drive future developments

Arnaud Le Hors: Use cases are out there, including in W3C to drive future developments

14:22:42 <azaroth> ... maybe that's something we'll have to do. What are teh use cases that current LDP specs don't address?

... maybe that's something we'll have to do. What are teh use cases that current LDP specs don't address?

14:22:53 <azaroth> Sandro: Just checked last review, ...

Sandro Hawke: Just checked last review, ...

14:23:06 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

14:23:06 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted

14:23:18 <azaroth> ... Might be difficult to get to 20 without some outreach

... Might be difficult to get to 20 without some outreach

14:23:24 <azaroth> Ted: Were there any opposing?

Ted Thibodeau: Were there any opposing?

14:23:28 <codyburleson> Who is typing?

Cody Burleson: Who is typing?

14:23:38 <codyburleson> …and not on mute?

Cody Burleson: …and not on mute?

14:23:47 <azaroth> Sandro: Normally no one opposing, if someone opposes we change the proposal

Sandro Hawke: Normally no one opposing, if someone opposes we change the proposal

14:24:05 <azaroth> Arnaud: With the new rule people ping me personally, as AC rep, to see if IBM going to support a proposal

Arnaud Le Hors: With the new rule people ping me personally, as AC rep, to see if IBM going to support a proposal

14:24:12 <azaroth> Sandro: didn't have to do that before hand

Sandro Hawke: didn't have to do that before hand

14:24:18 <azaroth> ?

?

14:24:39 <bblfish> how many implementations do we have?

Henry Story: how many implementations do we have?

14:24:46 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Might still be interest, we don't know

Arnaud Le Hors: Might still be interest, we don't know

14:24:58 <azaroth> Ted: They clicked the join button, should click the support button

Ted Thibodeau: They clicked the join button, should click the support button

14:25:07 <azaroth> Henry: How many implementations do we have?

Henry Story: How many implementations do we have?

14:25:12 <azaroth> ... That shows support

... That shows support

14:25:18 <azaroth> Arnaud: Don't need to argue it yet

Arnaud Le Hors: Don't need to argue it yet

14:25:22 <azaroth> ... should assume it won't be easy

... should assume it won't be easy

14:25:34 <azaroth> Sandro: Should do a good job explaining why it's important

Sandro Hawke: Should do a good job explaining why it's important

14:25:47 <azaroth> Arnaud: What matters is to start working on it

Arnaud Le Hors: What matters is to start working on it

14:25:58 <azaroth> ... Need to get the draft charter ready

... Need to get the draft charter ready

14:26:05 <bblfish> good point, one does need to do a good job of explaining what a new WG extension needs to do

Henry Story: good point, one does need to do a good job of explaining what a new WG extension needs to do

14:26:29 <azaroth> Arnaud: Let's move on.

Arnaud Le Hors: Let's move on.

14:26:44 <codyburleson> I wonder if marketing, promotion, evangelization is a valid charter objective?

Cody Burleson: I wonder if marketing, promotion, evangelization is a valid charter objective?

14:26:49 <azaroth> ... Need to make sure we're delivering on the first charter, so status of LDP spec?

... Need to make sure we're delivering on the first charter, so status of LDP spec?

<azaroth> topic: LDP Specification

4. LDP Specification

14:26:58 <azaroth> ... See work on the disposition of comments

... See work on the disposition of comments

14:27:13 <azaroth> ... Used format from RDF WG.

... Used format from RDF WG.

14:27:37 <azaroth> ... Disposition of comments document is still not quite there

... Disposition of comments document is still not quite there

14:27:43 <azaroth> ... but Steve, what's the status?

... but Steve, what's the status?

14:28:22 <azaroth> Sandro:  Not sure he ever will be

Sandro Hawke: Not sure he ever will be

14:29:31 <azaroth_> scribenick: azaroth_
14:29:47 <azaroth_> ... what making a container act like a resource means.

... what making a container act like a resource means.

14:30:08 <azaroth_> ... Can agree to disagree with him

... Can agree to disagree with him

14:30:21 <azaroth_> Arnaud:  Didn't provide a way to achieve the results we want from the UC

Arnaud Le Hors: Didn't provide a way to achieve the results we want from the UC

14:30:48 <azaroth_> ... This is about the ablity for a simple resource which is basically a container but doesn't act like one. e.g. an archive of a container

... This is about the ablity for a simple resource which is basically a container but doesn't act like one. e.g. an archive of a container

14:30:59 <SteveS> my response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp/2014Oct/0002.html

Steve Speicher: my response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp/2014Oct/0002.html

14:31:06 <azaroth_> ... added headers that allow you to say it's a simple resource even though it looks like a container

... added headers that allow you to say it's a simple resource even though it looks like a container

14:31:33 <azaroth_> ... turns out he's against the idea to allow you to do it, as rdf and headers are saying different things

... turns out he's against the idea to allow you to do it, as rdf and headers are saying different things

14:32:08 <azaroth_> ... but you can, it's like making a false statement. But others saying you can't do it, period.

... but you can, it's like making a false statement. But others saying you can't do it, period.

14:32:14 <azaroth_> ... bottom line is we need to agree to disagree

... bottom line is we need to agree to disagree

14:32:22 <bblfish> Wherever you can make a true statement, you can also make a false statement

Henry Story: Wherever you can make a true statement, you can also make a false statement

14:32:23 <azaroth_> ... no reason to give up on the UC

... no reason to give up on the UC

14:32:39 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

14:32:44 <azaroth_> ... hasn't said how to do it, that would be better, just that we can't do it

... hasn't said how to do it, that would be better, just that we can't do it

14:32:53 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

14:33:04 <azaroth_> Henry:  if you can make a true statement, you can make a false one, you can't prevent false statements

Henry Story: if you can make a true statement, you can make a false one, you can't prevent false statements

14:33:17 <azaroth_> Arnaud:  End of LC period in another day or two

Arnaud Le Hors: End of LC period in another day or two

14:33:38 <azaroth_> ... should be able to move forward, so need to look at implementations

... should be able to move forward, so need to look at implementations

14:33:44 <azaroth_> ... Henry ... indirect containers?

... Henry ... indirect containers?

14:33:55 <azaroth_> Henry:  Need to integrate some work from Banana (?) RDF slowing me down

Henry Story: Need to integrate some work from Banana (?) RDF slowing me down

14:33:56 <SteveS> q+

Steve Speicher: q+

14:34:24 <azaroth_> Arnaud: Monday? This is the schedule -- want us to vote on going to PR with  or without Indirect COntainers

Arnaud Le Hors: Monday? This is the schedule -- want us to vote on going to PR with or without Indirect COntainers

14:34:36 <azaroth_> ... Need another implementation to do that

... Need another implementation to do that

14:34:47 <nmihindu> Arnaud, David Wood/Callimachus submitted a report with Indirect containers, isn't it ?

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Arnaud, David Wood/Callimachus submitted a report with Indirect containers, isn't it ?

14:34:50 <SteveS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-comments/2014Oct/0004.html

Steve Speicher: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-comments/2014Oct/0004.html

14:34:52 <azaroth_> Sandro: We have two, Callimachus implemented them

Steve Speicher: We have two, Callimachus implemented them

14:35:02 <azaroth_> s/Sandro/Steves/
14:35:18 <azaroth_> Arnaud: I missed that, wow. Henry can take a vacation :)

Arnaud Le Hors: I missed that, wow. Henry can take a vacation :)

14:35:48 <bblfish> :-)

Henry Story: :-)

14:35:49 <azaroth_> Steves: There's a number of tests that weren't tested, so have incomplete covrage

Steve Speicher: There's a number of tests that weren't tested, so have incomplete covrage

14:36:03 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

14:36:10 <azaroth_> ... some haven't been implemented as waiting for feedback. A little work to do

... some haven't been implemented as waiting for feedback. A little work to do

14:36:18 <Arnaud> zakim, unmute cody

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, unmute cody

14:36:18 <Zakim> codyburleson should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: codyburleson should no longer be muted

14:36:54 <SteveS> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/tests/reports/ldp.html#indirectcontainer-must

Steve Speicher: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/tests/reports/ldp.html#indirectcontainer-must

14:37:30 <azaroth_> Steves: Some have been left blank or untested, have to be done manually.

Steve Speicher: Some have been left blank or untested, have to be done manually.

14:37:42 <azaroth_> ... How complete do we need to be for reporting?

... How complete do we need to be for reporting?

14:37:49 <azaroth_> ... Haven't pulled in Callimachus yet

... Haven't pulled in Callimachus yet

14:37:57 <azaroth_> ... So first question is to carbon LDP folks

... So first question is to carbon LDP folks

14:38:20 <azaroth_> MiguelAraCo: (breaking up)

Miguel Aragón: (breaking up)

14:38:39 <azaroth_> ... JSON-LD tests were added after

... JSON-LD tests were added after

14:38:53 <azaroth_> Arnaud: Can you send an updated test report?

Arnaud Le Hors: Can you send an updated test report?

14:39:07 <azaroth_> MiguelAraCo: Writing an email on findings on implementing LDP

Miguel Aragón: Writing an email on findings on implementing LDP

14:39:21 <azaroth_> ... we have seen some things that might need to be considered

... we have seen some things that might need to be considered

14:39:35 <azaroth_> Arnaud: Please do that quickly

Arnaud Le Hors: Please do that quickly

14:39:40 <azaroth_> ... Have to hurry up to get to PR

... Have to hurry up to get to PR

14:39:54 <azaroth_> ... Strong signal that we're delivering on our charter

... Strong signal that we're delivering on our charter

14:40:05 <azaroth_> ... Once we're at PR there's not a lot to worry about

... Once we're at PR there's not a lot to worry about

14:40:19 <Arnaud> ack SteveS

Arnaud Le Hors: ack SteveS

14:40:46 <codyburleson> q+

Cody Burleson: q+

14:40:49 <azaroth_> Steves:  Second half was how complete we are.  Have two implementations reporting for indirect containers, but how complete?

Steve Speicher: Second half was how complete we are. Have two implementations reporting for indirect containers, but how complete?

14:40:58 <azaroth_> Arnaud: For everything else there's two implementations, except one

Arnaud Le Hors: For everything else there's two implementations, except one

14:41:08 <azaroth_> ... ask as if inserted content relation triple exists.

... ask as if inserted content relation triple exists.

14:41:13 <azaroth_> Steves:  Depended on Indirect Containers

Steve Speicher: Depended on Indirect Containers

14:41:23 <azaroth_> ... so if removed them, then wouldn't exist

... so if removed them, then wouldn't exist

14:42:00 <azaroth_> Sandro:  Didn't follow why it wasn't being tested

Sandro Hawke: Didn't follow why it wasn't being tested

14:42:10 <azaroth_> Steves:  Depends on indirects, and no one contributed a test for it

Steve Speicher: Depends on indirects, and no one contributed a test for it

14:42:13 <azaroth_> ... so waiting for someone

... so waiting for someone

14:42:21 <azaroth_> Sandro: So better to get someone to contribute the test

Sandro Hawke: So better to get someone to contribute the test

14:42:26 <azaroth_> Arnaud: For next week ...

Arnaud Le Hors: For next week ...

14:42:31 <azaroth_> ... challenging.

... challenging.

14:42:44 <azaroth_> Steves: Manual test,not automated? Would kick problem down the street

Steve Speicher: Manual test,not automated? Would kick problem down the street

14:42:51 <azaroth_> Arnaud:  Could be a reasonable thing to do at this point

Arnaud Le Hors: Could be a reasonable thing to do at this point

14:43:23 <azaroth_> ... should do what we can to avoid raised eyerows

... should do what we can to avoid raised eyerows

14:43:27 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

14:43:28 <azaroth_> ... anything else?

... anything else?

14:43:41 <Arnaud> ack codyburleson

Arnaud Le Hors: ack codyburleson

14:44:43 <azaroth> scribenick: azaroth
14:45:13 <azaroth> Steves: Attempt to automate things, but don't have enough config information we skip them, and that generates a skipped entry in the report

Steve Speicher: Attempt to automate things, but don't have enough config information we skip them, and that generates a skipped entry in the report

14:45:16 <codyburleson> q-

Cody Burleson: q-

14:45:25 <azaroth> topic: LDP Paging

5. LDP Paging

14:45:31 <SteveS> Coverage report (which tests are manual, not done, etc): http://w3c.github.io/ldp-testsuite/manifest/

Steve Speicher: Coverage report (which tests are manual, not done, etc): http://w3c.github.io/ldp-testsuite/manifest/

14:45:31 <azaroth> ... Same point about disposition of comments

... Same point about disposition of comments

14:45:43 <azaroth> ... Steve you said you were going to follow up on comments?

... Steve you said you were going to follow up on comments?

14:45:50 <azaroth> Steves: I fired off some emails this morning

Steve Speicher: I fired off some emails this morning

14:46:13 <azaroth> Arnaud:  There was question about range, and if we need it. John had responded. Not sure where it leaves us

Arnaud Le Hors: There was question about range, and if we need it. John had responded. Not sure where it leaves us

14:46:20 <azaroth> ... If they accept our position or not

... If they accept our position or not

14:46:49 <azaroth> ... Clear that large constituency of people that say why do you need all this stuff

... Clear that large constituency of people that say why do you need all this stuff

14:46:57 <azaroth> ... do paging with range, why can't you do the same

... do paging with range, why can't you do the same

14:47:39 <azaroth> Steves:  Threads got a bit twisted between Austin and Benjamin.  Evolved into list of things that need to change, but more understanding of the concepts

Steve Speicher: Threads got a bit twisted between Austin and Benjamin. Evolved into list of things that need to change, but more understanding of the concepts

14:47:47 <azaroth> ... and if there's a way to leverage beyond LDP

... and if there's a way to leverage beyond LDP

14:48:08 <azaroth> Arnaud: Last call period for the doc ended last week, so should be able to write it up and move forwards

Arnaud Le Hors: Last call period for the doc ended last week, so should be able to write it up and move forwards

14:48:14 <azaroth> Steves: Yup, that's what I was trying to do

Steve Speicher: Yup, that's what I was trying to do

14:48:32 <azaroth> ... replied pointing to the other thread, saying let us know if this addresses your comments

... replied pointing to the other thread, saying let us know if this addresses your comments

14:48:37 <bblfish> btw, once the LDP spec is in Last Call how long does it take to become a standard?

Henry Story: btw, once the LDP spec is in Last Call how long does it take to become a standard?

14:48:50 <azaroth> Arnaud:  If we're done with the comments, we're going to CR and need the implementations

Arnaud Le Hors: If we're done with the comments, we're going to CR and need the implementations

14:48:57 <azaroth> ... Need to work on the test suite and all that good stuff

... Need to work on the test suite and all that good stuff

14:49:06 <azaroth> ... Interested to know who has plans to implement paging?

... Interested to know who has plans to implement paging?

14:49:14 <azaroth> Steves: IBM does, we've done it already

Steve Speicher: IBM does, we've done it already

14:49:24 <azaroth> ... in early version of a product.

... in early version of a product.

14:49:27 <azaroth> Arnaud: Anyone else?

Arnaud Le Hors: Anyone else?

14:49:32 <deiu> Not me

Andrei Sambra: Not me

14:49:32 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

14:49:32 <Zakim> TallTed was not muted, TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed was not muted, TallTed

14:49:33 <azaroth> (crickets)

(crickets)

14:49:43 <azaroth> ???: Believe it's on the board but not certain

Ted Thibodeau: Believe it's on the board but not certain

14:49:50 <SteveS> full IBM disclosure: plans may change, mileage may vary

Steve Speicher: full IBM disclosure: plans may change, mileage may vary

14:49:52 <azaroth> Arnaud: Need two implementations to move to PR

Arnaud Le Hors: Need two implementations to move to PR

14:49:54 <TallTed> s/???:/TallTed:/
14:50:00 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

14:50:00 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

14:50:07 <azaroth> Arnaud: Anything else about paging?

Arnaud Le Hors: Anything else about paging?

14:50:09 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

14:50:20 <azaroth> ... suggest we move on. 10 minutes left. Patch?

... suggest we move on. 10 minutes left. Patch?

14:50:24 <azaroth> topic: LD Patch

6. LD Patch

14:50:47 <azaroth> ???:  Comments from Tim last week asking if we're going to support arbittrary set of triples

???: Comments from Tim last week asking if we're going to support arbittrary set of triples

14:50:58 <azaroth> ... Alexandre, ???, and I talked about it and thought it was a reasonable use case

... Alexandre, ???, and I talked about it and thought it was a reasonable use case

14:51:19 <azaroth> ... Going to have a look at the spec and see where we can add it

... Going to have a look at the spec and see where we can add it

14:51:41 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Is there more than that?

Arnaud Le Hors: Is there more than that?

14:51:46 <azaroth> ???: No that's pretty much it

???: No that's pretty much it

14:51:56 <azaroth> Sandro: What are we doing with emails from David?

Sandro Hawke: What are we doing with emails from David?

14:52:12 <azaroth> Arnaud: Nothing. We've heard sparql update already. Nothing new there.

Arnaud Le Hors: Nothing. We've heard sparql update already. Nothing new there.

14:52:26 <azaroth> Sandro: Procedurally? Have we said he can file formal objection?

Sandro Hawke: Procedurally? Have we said he can file formal objection?

14:52:37 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Just FPWD so anyone can comment.  If you think we should do more we can

Arnaud Le Hors: Just FPWD so anyone can comment. If you think we should do more we can

14:52:50 <azaroth> Sandro: maybe we don't have to, but seems unethical

Sandro Hawke: maybe we don't have to, but seems unethical

14:53:01 <azaroth> Arnaud: We acknowledged the comment and discussed it

Arnaud Le Hors: We acknowledged the comment and discussed it

14:53:13 <azaroth> Sandro: Do we track unsatisfied commenters?

Sandro Hawke: Do we track unsatisfied commenters?

14:53:23 <azaroth> Arnaud: It's in the minutes that we discussed

Arnaud Le Hors: It's in the minutes that we discussed

14:53:39 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

14:53:39 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted

14:53:59 <azaroth> Sandro:  Should get more clarity with David, and give a formal reply

Sandro Hawke: Should get more clarity with David, and give a formal reply

14:54:09 <azaroth> Arnaud: Raises question, how much do we want to wait before deciding

Arnaud Le Hors: Raises question, how much do we want to wait before deciding

14:54:23 <azaroth> ... when we decided to publish the draft, we asked for feedback, got it from a coule of people

... when we decided to publish the draft, we asked for feedback, got it from a coule of people

14:54:30 <azaroth> ... David said it was the wrong direction

... David said it was the wrong direction

14:54:41 <azaroth> ... So, now what do we do, and say we've heard enough

... So, now what do we do, and say we've heard enough

14:54:51 <azaroth> ... or switch to something else. I don't know that

... or switch to something else. I don't know that

14:54:54 <azaroth> Sandro: I don't either

Sandro Hawke: I don't either

14:55:14 <azaroth> Arnaud: Working on improving the spec. Has anyone been swayed by David's points?

Arnaud Le Hors: Working on improving the spec. Has anyone been swayed by David's points?

14:55:21 <azaroth> ... Anyone changed their mind?

... Anyone changed their mind?

14:55:22 <codyburleson> For the record, we've gone down another path with PATCH on Carbon LDP.

Cody Burleson: For the record, we've gone down another path with PATCH on Carbon LDP.

14:55:41 <azaroth> ... If no one has changed, then we stick with current path

... If no one has changed, then we stick with current path

14:56:05 <azaroth> ???: (breaking up)

Miguel Aragón: (breaking up)

14:56:32 <bblfish> yes, not so clear

Henry Story: yes, not so clear

14:56:36 <azaroth> ... Different approach. LDP patch too complex.

... Different approach. LDP patch too complex.

14:56:51 <azaroth> ... Another language to learn.

... Another language to learn.

14:57:09 <azaroth> s/???/MiguelAraCo/
14:57:20 <azaroth> Arnaud: Interesting feedback that too complex

Arnaud Le Hors: Interesting feedback that too complex

14:57:26 <azaroth> ... Went with something simpler

... Went with something simpler

14:57:40 <azaroth> ... Same inside IBM, but have heard the opposite too

... Same inside IBM, but have heard the opposite too

14:58:00 <azaroth> MiguelAraCo: (...)

Miguel Aragón: (...)

14:58:05 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

14:58:19 <azaroth> Arnaud: If you have a counter proposal, can always write an email explaining what it's about

Arnaud Le Hors: If you have a counter proposal, can always write an email explaining what it's about

14:58:28 <azaroth> ... feel free to say how you do it, and how it works for you

... feel free to say how you do it, and how it works for you

14:58:55 <azaroth> Arnaud:  Don't necessarily agree with the requirements

Arnaud Le Hors: Don't necessarily agree with the requirements

14:59:17 <azaroth> ???: Now there's several formats and people can choose which that fit their use cases

Andrei Sambra: Now there's several formats and people can choose which that fit their use cases

14:59:31 <azaroth> ... We have issues that none of them fix, eg blank node management and lists

... We have issues that none of them fix, eg blank node management and lists

14:59:39 <sandro> s/???/deiu/
14:59:50 <Arnaud> ack sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro

15:00:12 <azaroth> Sandro:  IETF has two json patch formats. A merge patch that's much simpler.

Sandro Hawke: IETF has two json patch formats. A merge patch that's much simpler.

15:00:27 <azaroth> ... Similar thing went on I guess. People looked at full one and said give me something simpler

... Similar thing went on I guess. People looked at full one and said give me something simpler

15:00:38 <azaroth> ... might be the reality. Thankfully extensible.

... might be the reality. Thankfully extensible.

15:00:47 <azaroth> ... Maybe go forwards and say it's not the only possibility

... Maybe go forwards and say it's not the only possibility

15:00:58 <azaroth> Arnaud: Not claim that it's THE patch format but A patch format

Arnaud Le Hors: Not claim that it's THE patch format but A patch format

15:01:09 <azaroth> ... Okay going to close the call, thank you for joining,

... Okay going to close the call, thank you for joining,

15:01:14 <azaroth> ... thank you Rob for scribing

... thank you Rob for scribing

15:01:23 <azaroth> ... Talk to you next week, or in two weeks :)

... Talk to you next week, or in two weeks :)

15:01:25 <Zakim> -codyburleson

Zakim IRC Bot: -codyburleson

15:01:26 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ashok_Malhotra

15:01:27 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

15:01:28 <Zakim> -SteveS

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveS

15:01:29 <Zakim> -TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed

15:01:30 <Zakim> -Roger

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roger

15:01:30 <Zakim> -deiu

Zakim IRC Bot: -deiu

15:01:31 <Zakim> -bblfish

Zakim IRC Bot: -bblfish

15:01:31 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

15:01:34 <Zakim> -azaroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -azaroth

15:01:35 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended

15:01:35 <Zakim> Attendees were azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud, deiu, SteveS, Ashok_Malhotra, Roger, bblfish, Sandro, TallTed, nmihindu

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud, deiu, SteveS, Ashok_Malhotra, Roger, bblfish, Sandro, TallTed, nmihindu

<azaroth> Present: azaroth, codyburleson, Arnaud, deiu, SteveS, Ashok_Malhotra, Roger, bblfish, Sandro, TallTed, nmihindu
15:03:10 <Arnaud> btw, the RDF Data Shapes WG has now officially been announced

Arnaud Le Hors: btw, the RDF Data Shapes WG has now officially been announced

15:03:18 <Arnaud> if anyone is interested, please, join!

Arnaud Le Hors: if anyone is interested, please, join!

15:04:08 <Arnaud> another WG chaired by yours truly

Arnaud Le Hors: another WG chaired by yours truly



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