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Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 17 April 2014

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5#Day_3_-_Thursday_April_17
Present
Cody Burleson, Bart van Leeuwen, Nandana Mihindukulasooriya, Arnaud Le Hors, Ashok Malhotra, Alexandre Bertails, John Arwe, Roger Menday, Sandro Hawke, Steve Speicher, Ted Thibodeau, Andrei Sambra, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Miguel Aragón
Chair
Arnaud Le Hors
Scribe
Ashok Malhotra, Andrei Sambra
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Close issue-97 with adding JSON-LD as a SHOULD in the spec, if we can in W3C process without another Last Call; if it'll require another LC, then we advocate for it in BP. link
  2. We agree to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal link
  3. Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown. link
  4. We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all. Size in number of triples, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item. link
  5. If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triple and containment triple for a given (contained/member) resource MUST be on the same page as each other. link
Topics
12:56:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-irc

12:56:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public

12:56:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP

12:56:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_LDPWG()8:30AM scheduled to start 26 minutes ago

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see DATA_LDPWG()8:30AM scheduled to start 26 minutes ago

12:56:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
12:56:28 <trackbot> Date: 17 April 2014
13:01:51 <Zakim> DATA_LDPWG()8:30AM has now started

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: DATA_LDPWG()8:30AM has now started

13:01:58 <Zakim> +MIT-F2F-group

Zakim IRC Bot: +MIT-F2F-group

13:03:18 <nmihindu> Zakim, what's the code?

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, what's the code?

13:03:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nmihindu

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nmihindu

13:03:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

13:03:54 <codyburleson> Zakim, IPcaller is me.

Cody Burleson: Zakim, IPcaller is me.

13:03:54 <Zakim> +codyburleson; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +codyburleson; got it

13:04:15 <codyburleson> Zakim, who is talking?

Cody Burleson: Zakim, who is talking?

13:04:15 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

13:04:22 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16

13:04:24 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P17 is me

Bart van Leeuwen: Zakim, ??P17 is me

13:04:24 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +BartvanLeeuwen; got it

13:04:26 <Zakim> codyburleson, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds

Zakim IRC Bot: codyburleson, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds

13:04:34 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P16 is me

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, ??P16 is me

13:04:34 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +nmihindu; got it

13:04:39 <nmihindu> Zakim, mute me

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, mute me

13:04:39 <Zakim> nmihindu should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: nmihindu should now be muted

13:05:45 <Ashok> scribenick:  Ashok

(Scribe set to Ashok Malhotra)

<Ashok> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5#Day_3_-_Thursday_April_17
<Ashok> chair: Arnaud
<Ashok> Present: codyburleson, BartvanLeeuwen, nmihindu, Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu, ericP, MiguelAraCo
13:06:47 <Ashok> Topic: Today's agenda

1. Today's agenda

13:06:55 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen

Zakim IRC Bot: -BartvanLeeuwen

13:07:14 <Ashok> Arnaud:  Access control and Patch format are on the agenda with testing in the afternoon.

Arnaud Le Hors: Access control and Patch format are on the agenda with testing in the afternoon.

13:07:18 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

13:07:20 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P17 is me

Bart van Leeuwen: Zakim, ??P17 is me

13:07:20 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +BartvanLeeuwen; got it

13:07:46 <Ashok> ... I think we need to talk about the spec again.  Esp.  about JSON-LD.

... I think we need to talk about the spec again. Esp. about JSON-LD.

13:07:58 <Ashok> ... also talk about paging a bit more.

... also talk about paging a bit more.

13:07:59 <codyburleson> *has also the noise

Cody Burleson: *has also the noise

13:08:29 <Ashok> Arnaud:  We can delay testing

Arnaud Le Hors: We can delay testing

13:09:13 <Ashok> ... start with Access Control Note now.  Then spec and paging

... start with Access Control Note now. Then spec and paging

13:09:23 <Ashok> ... and patch

... and patch

13:09:24 <deiu> Zakim, who is on the call?

Andrei Sambra: Zakim, who is on the call?

13:09:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see MIT-F2F-group, codyburleson, nmihindu (muted), BartvanLeeuwen

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see MIT-F2F-group, codyburleson, nmihindu (muted), BartvanLeeuwen

13:09:52 <Ashok> Arnaud:  I don't see a quick solution to PATCH.

Arnaud Le Hors: I don't see a quick solution to PATCH.

13:10:01 <Ashok> Topic: Access Control Note

2. Access Control Note

13:10:25 <deiu> Zakim, MIT-F2F-group has Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu

Andrei Sambra: Zakim, MIT-F2F-group has Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu

13:10:25 <Zakim> +Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu; got it

13:10:30 <Ashok> Arnaud:  This was a compromise we came to when we wrote the charter

Arnaud Le Hors: This was a compromise we came to when we wrote the charter

13:11:12 <Ashok> ... did not want to put on charter because it's a hard issue.  So we decided on a separate note.

... did not want to put on charter because it's a hard issue. So we decided on a separate note.

13:11:48 <codyburleson> Annoying noise just stopped

Cody Burleson: Annoying noise just stopped

13:11:56 <Ashok> ... on yesterday's wish list discussion Access Control was high priority

... on yesterday's wish list discussion Access Control was high priority

13:12:10 <Ashok> ... we need agreement on usescases

... we need agreement on usescases

13:13:01 <deiu> Ashok: we started on this and we have 2 requirements

Ashok Malhotra: we started on this and we have 2 requirements [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ]

13:13:09 <deiu> ... one: you need some form of authentication

Andrei Sambra: ... one: you need some form of authentication

13:13:29 <deiu> ... however, we don't want to specify the authentication protocol

Andrei Sambra: ... however, we don't want to specify the authentication protocol

13:14:14 <deiu> ... second: once you are authenticated (and say you get a token), then you can access various things, update them, etc., so there must be some way to specify what you can do

Andrei Sambra: ... second: once you are authenticated (and say you get a token), then you can access various things, update them, etc., so there must be some way to specify what you can do

13:15:10 <deiu> ... the question is: where do we specify that? In LDP, in HTTP? How do we specify what the ACL privileges are?

Andrei Sambra: ... the question is: where do we specify that? In LDP, in HTTP? How do we specify what the ACL privileges are?

13:15:41 <deiu> ... our wiki page has example we can build on

Andrei Sambra: ... our wiki page has example we can build on

13:16:01 <deiu> ... we haven't gotten further on this because there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm in the group

Andrei Sambra: ... we haven't gotten further on this because there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm in the group

13:16:07 <deiu> Arnaud: I agree with that part

Arnaud Le Hors: I agree with that part [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ]

13:16:40 <deiu> ... but we should not get sidetracked into discussing the solutions, but instead try to figure out the questions we need to ask ourselves

Andrei Sambra: ... but we should not get sidetracked into discussing the solutions, but instead try to figure out the questions we need to ask ourselves

13:17:12 <deiu> Ashok: does fine-grained ACL means access to one attribute?

Ashok Malhotra: does fine-grained ACL means access to one attribute? [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ]

13:17:15 <deiu> Arnaud: yes

Arnaud Le Hors: yes [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ]

13:17:31 <deiu> Ashok: people also want access to a group of resources, and to specify that group is hard

Ashok Malhotra: people also want access to a group of resources, and to specify that group is hard [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ]

13:17:45 <deiu> Arnaud: that's not what we're trying to decide now

Arnaud Le Hors: that's not what we're trying to decide now [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ]

13:17:50 <deiu> ... now we want to know what the requirements are

Andrei Sambra: ... now we want to know what the requirements are

13:18:09 <deiu> ... let's look at the doc together and decide how we can improve it

Andrei Sambra: ... let's look at the doc together and decide how we can improve it

13:18:50 <deiu> ... why don't we go through the use-cases first?

Andrei Sambra: ... why don't we go through the use-cases first?

13:20:59 <deiu> Arnaud: do people agree that the use-case involving ACL for group is important?

Arnaud Le Hors: do people agree that the use-case involving ACL for group is important? [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ]

13:22:25 <TallTed> Use Case: granting access to a (group of) resources to attendees of a particular session at a conference

Ted Thibodeau: generic requirement: granting access to a (group of) resources to attendees of a particular session at a conference

13:24:24 <TallTed>  Requirements: group entitites; grant permissions to the group; set permissions on a (group of) resources

Ted Thibodeau: Requirements: group entitites; grant permissions to the group; set permissions on a (group of) resources

13:26:17 <Ashok> Ted: Granularity of access control is important

Ted Thibodeau: Granularity of access control is important

13:33:50 <TallTed>  Requirement: Grant permissions for (set restrictions on) individual (enumeration) entity/resource.

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Ted Thibodeau: Requirement: Grant permissions for (set restrictions on) individual (enumeration) entity/resource.

13:34:32 <TallTed>  Requirement: Group entities/resources by enumeration (closed ended.)

Ted Thibodeau: Requirement: Group entities/resources by enumeration (closed ended.)

13:34:32 <TallTed>  Requirement: Group entities/resources by attribute (open ended.)

Ted Thibodeau: Requirement: Group entities/resources by attribute (open ended.)

13:35:59 <Ashok> Arnaud:  Do we need 3.3?

Arnaud Le Hors: Do we need 3.3?

13:36:40 <Ashok> Ted:  Disagrees

Ted Thibodeau: Disagrees

13:37:36 <Ashok> ... that is should be removed

... that it should be removed

13:38:02 <Ashok> s/is/it/
13:40:31 <TallTed> s/Use Case: granting/generic requirement: granting/
13:43:26 <Ashok>  Usecase:  Ted wants to access/update some resource ... he wants his friends to get acess ... he wants to acess related resources

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Usecase: Ted wants to access/update some resource ... he wants his friends to get acess ... he wants to acess related resources

13:44:08 <Ashok> Ted:  Change title of 3.4

Ted Thibodeau: Change title of 3.4

13:46:01 <Ashok> Andre:  Do we need access control in LDP?

Andrei Sambra: Do we need access control in LDP?

13:46:16 <Ashok> ... underlying store will have policies

... underlying store will have policies

13:46:29 <Ashok> ... how to expose these policies to client

... how to expose these policies to client

13:47:49 <Ashok> Ted:  Talks about distinction between usecases and requirements

Ted Thibodeau: Talks about distinction between usecases and requirements

13:49:14 <Ashok> Alexandre:  Is there anyting special about access control for LDP?

Alexandre Bertails: Is there anyting special about access control for LDP?

13:49:32 <Ashok> Ted:  Is there a system that satisfies these requirements?

Ted Thibodeau: Is there a system that satisfies these requirements?

13:49:46 <Ashok> ... there is no W3C spec that tells us

... there is no W3C spec that tells us

13:49:58 <TallTed>  Question: Granularity.  LDPC?  LDPR?  attribute within LDPR ("triple level")?

Ted Thibodeau: Question: Granularity. LDPC? LDPR? attribute within LDPR ("triple level")?

13:51:43 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

13:53:43 <Ashok> Steves:  We have application-specific access control

Steve Speicher: We have application-specific access control

13:54:12 <nmihindu> people who are doing similar things today with Linked Data without LDP (Victor from UPM, Serena from Inria) do it as dataset, graph, triple levels as far as I know

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: people who are doing similar things today with Linked Data without LDP (Victor from UPM, Serena from Inria) do it as dataset, graph, triple levels as far as I know

13:54:59 <codyburleson> We should escape Identification and Authentication. We need only a URI to represent ANY Principal. Once we have that, we can focuse specifically on Authorization and make no claim about how the Principal URI is derived.

Cody Burleson: We should escape Identification and Authentication. We need only a URI to represent ANY Principal. Once we have that, we can focuse specifically on Authorization and make no claim about how the Principal URI is derived.

13:55:08 <Ashok> Andre:  We use Wen Acess Control to specify policies ... LDP just uses them

Andrei Sambra: We use Web Acess Control to specify policies ... LDP just uses them

13:55:25 <TallTed> Access Control == Identification (e.g., WebID, Username, OpenID) + Authentication (e.g., WebID+TLS, Password, Password+Token) + Authorization (permissions, policies)

Ted Thibodeau: Access Control == Identification (e.g., WebID, Username, OpenID) + Authentication (e.g., WebID+TLS, Password, Password+Token) + Authorization (permissions, policies)

13:57:57 <Ashok> s/Wen/Web/
13:59:20 <ericP> q+ to ask whether an LDP Resource can have different triples (or Container have different members) depending on the authentication

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask whether an LDP Resource can have different triples (or Container have different members) depending on the authentication

13:59:25 <Ashok> Ashok:  The question is -- Is Access Control our problem

Ashok Malhotra: The question is -- Is Access Control our problem

13:59:47 <Ashok> Steves:  If we don't do it, who will do it?

Steve Speicher: If we don't do it, who will do it?

14:00:43 <ericP> if resources can look different, you enable fine-grained access control.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: if resources can look different, you enable fine-grained access control.

14:01:15 <Ashok> Ashok:  Should we write this as a charter for a WG?

Ashok Malhotra: Should we write this as a charter for a WG?

14:01:32 <Ashok> Andre:  There is a lot of work to be done here

Andrei Sambra: There is a lot of work to be done here

14:01:32 <ericP> (i don't think there's anything that says that can't be different, though HTTP purists may argue that two representations with different triples can't represent the same resource at the same time)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (i don't think there's anything that says that can't be different, though HTTP purists may argue that two representations with different triples can't represent the same resource at the same time)

14:04:59 <Ashok> Ashok:  #.5 follows from 3.4 ... part of 3.4 actually

Ashok Malhotra: #.5 follows from 3.4 ... part of 3.4 actually

14:06:03 <codyburleson> Problem Statement: Any platform for developing web applications would be incomplete without a mechanism for Authentication and Authorization. Without this functionality, the platform could serve only light, utilitarian purposes at best. Without security, it would not even be proper to call the system a "platform".

Cody Burleson: Problem Statement: Any platform for developing web applications would be incomplete without a mechanism for Authentication and Authorization. Without this functionality, the platform could serve only light, utilitarian purposes at best. Without security, it would not even be proper to call the system a "platform".

14:06:11 <Arnaud> ack ericP

Arnaud Le Hors: ack ericP

14:06:11 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask whether an LDP Resource can have different triples (or Container have different members) depending on the authentication

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask whether an LDP Resource can have different triples (or Container have different members) depending on the authentication

14:07:10 <Ashok> Eric:  Is there something in LDP that depends on auathentication?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Is there something in LDP that depends on auathentication?

14:07:39 <Ashok> Ted:  Nothing says two user have to see the same thing

Ted Thibodeau: Nothing says two user have to see the same thing

14:09:22 <Ashok> Andre:  Let's ask folks who have implemented access control to send usecases

Andrei Sambra: Let's ask folks who have implemented access control to send usecases

14:09:36 <Ashok> \Sandro:  I like very specific usecases

Sandro Hawke: I like very specific usecases

14:10:40 <Ashok> Sandro:  3 paras that would define scope of work in a charter would be good

Sandro Hawke: 3 paras that would define scope of work in a charter would be good

14:10:56 <Ashok> s/\sandro/sandro/

s/\sandro/sandro/ (warning: replacement failed)

14:11:31 <Ashok> s/\Sandro/Sandro/
14:12:23 <codyburleson> +q

Cody Burleson: +q

14:12:51 <codyburleson> -q

Cody Burleson: -q

14:15:39 <Ashok> Move last usecase to intro section

Move last usecase to intro section

14:16:02 <Ashok> Move 4.2 to section 5

Move 4.2 to section 5

14:17:57 <Ashok> Arnaud:  Do we need section 5?

Arnaud Le Hors: Do we need section 5?

14:20:15 <Ashok> ... move to other document?

... move to other document?

14:21:28 <Ashok> Sandro:  Start another wiki page with the 3 paras that could go into a charter

Sandro Hawke: Start another wiki page with the 3 paras that could go into a charter

14:21:41 <Ashok> Ted:  make that the conclusion of this document

Ted Thibodeau: make that the conclusion of this document

14:21:47 <Ashok> Arnaud:  Yes

Arnaud Le Hors: Yes

14:23:03 <Ashok> Nandana, do you have a comment?

Nandana, do you have a comment?

14:23:28 <nmihindu> Ashok, no I've just put my mind completely to the primer :)

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Ashok, no I've just put my mind completely to the primer :)

14:24:03 <Ashok> Great!

Great!

14:24:54 <BartvanLeeuwen> break now ?

Bart van Leeuwen: break now ?

14:25:05 <TallTed> break until 10:35 local

Ted Thibodeau: break until 10:35 local

14:26:18 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen

Zakim IRC Bot: -BartvanLeeuwen

14:35:45 <sandro> topic; json

(No events recorded for 9 minutes)

Sandro Hawke: topic; json

14:35:53 <Ashok> Topic: ISSUE-97 Should we use JSON in addition to Turtle?

3. ISSUE-97 Should we use JSON in addition to Turtle?

14:36:07 <sandro> issue-97

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-97

14:36:07 <trackbot> issue-97 -- Json instead of (in addition to?) turtle -- raised

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-97 -- Json instead of (in addition to?) turtle -- raised

14:36:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/97

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/97

14:36:25 <Ashok> Arnaud:  We could put in Best Practices doc.

Arnaud Le Hors: We could put in Best Practices doc.

14:36:41 <Ashok> ... don't want to go to another Last Call.

... don't want to go to another Last Call.

14:37:34 <Ashok> ... We could put a SHOULD in the spec.  We can do this w/o going to another Last Call

... We could put a SHOULD in the spec. We can do this w/o going to another Last Call

14:37:39 <codyburleson> +1 "SHOULD" support JSON-LD

Cody Burleson: +1 "SHOULD" support JSON-LD

14:37:58 <ericP> imo, that's n'th last call

Eric Prud'hommeaux: imo, that's n'th last call

14:38:13 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

14:38:16 <Ashok> PROPOSAL:  Add SHOULd support JSON-LD in spec

PROPOSED: Add SHOULd support JSON-LD in spec

14:38:57 <Ashok> ... we can also add "who supports JSON-LD" when we go to CR

... we can also add "who supports JSON-LD" when we go to CR

14:39:19 <Ashok> Sandro:  Are we saying need to convert formats?

Sandro Hawke: Are we saying need to convert formats?

14:39:37 <Arnaud> ack betehess

Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess

14:39:41 <Ashok> ... need translation on output or store both formats

... need translation on output or store both formats

14:41:12 <Ashok> Steves:  Or say you match the format of request

Steve Speicher: Or say you match the format of request

14:41:52 <betehess> my take: MUST Turtle / SHOULD JSON-LD does not sound like a so great idea. not sure that it solves exactly

Alexandre Bertails: my take: MUST Turtle / SHOULD JSON-LD does not sound like a so great idea. not sure that it solves exactly

14:41:58 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4

14:42:04 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P4 is me

Bart van Leeuwen: Zakim, ??P4 is me

14:42:04 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +BartvanLeeuwen; got it

14:42:18 <Ashok> Sandro:  We should gather data to go into Director meeting

Sandro Hawke: We should gather data to go into Director meeting

14:42:59 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

14:43:05 <Ashok> Sandro:   We will put in spec ... if Director obejcts move to BP

Sandro Hawke: We will put in spec ... if Director obejcts move to BP

14:43:27 <Ashok> Eric:  Can we put into separate doc that put to REC

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Can we put into separate doc that put to REC

14:43:38 <Ashok> Sandro:  One line ... too much hassle

Sandro Hawke: One line ... too much hassle

14:45:16 <Ashok> Eric:  There is mapping from JSON-LD to Turtle .... 1 to m mapping ...

Eric Prud'hommeaux: There is mapping from JSON-LD to Turtle .... 1 to m mapping ...

14:45:29 <Ashok> ... need context

... need context

14:45:32 <Arnaud> ack betehess

Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess

14:45:35 <SteveS> q+

Steve Speicher: q+

14:45:51 <Ashok> Sandro:  We only support JSON-LD which has context embedded in ti

Sandro Hawke: We only support JSON-LD which has context embedded in it

14:46:00 <Ashok> s/ti/it/
14:46:40 <ericP> right, but that's a mapping from json to one namespace unless you want to use the very ugly json-ld with no short names

Eric Prud'hommeaux: right, but that's a mapping from json to one namespace unless you want to use the very ugly json-ld with no short names

14:46:46 <Ashok> Alexandre:  Discussion about where SHOULD goes

Alexandre Bertails: Discussion about where SHOULD goes

14:47:03 <ericP> (Sandro)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (Sandro)

14:47:56 <Arnaud> ack Steves

Arnaud Le Hors: ack Steves

14:47:57 <Ashok> ... also SHOULD vs. MUST

... also SHOULD vs. MUST

14:48:10 <sandro> ericP, no, the servers and the clients get to figure out the @context to use

Sandro Hawke: ericP, no, the servers and the clients get to figure out the @context to use

14:48:46 <Ashok> Steves:  We may have to go to another call if we get significant comments in CR.

Steve Speicher: We may have to go to another call if we get significant comments in CR.

14:49:03 <Ashok> ... so we can put in BP and then add to spec later

... so we can put in BP and then add to spec later

14:49:28 <Ashok> Sandro:  Let's ask director.  If he says NO we move to BP.

Sandro Hawke: Let's ask director. If he says NO we move to BP.

14:49:39 <ericP> sandro, ahh, so we don't ahve a standard serialization in json

Eric Prud'hommeaux: sandro, ahh, so we don't ahve a standard serialization in json

14:49:54 <Ashok> Arnaud:  can we add to AT RISK

Arnaud Le Hors: can we add to AT RISK

14:50:11 <Ashok> Sandro:  Maybe

Sandro Hawke: Maybe

14:51:18 <betehess> betehess: if there was no LC issue, I would like to see MUST implement JSON-LD (no Turtle mandatory)

Alexandre Bertails: if there was no LC issue, I would like to see MUST implement JSON-LD (no Turtle mandatory) [ Scribe Assist by Alexandre Bertails ]

14:51:26 <roger> +1

Roger Menday: +1

14:51:44 <deiu> +1

Andrei Sambra: +1

14:52:57 <Ashok> Ashok:  You are making a marketing asessment

Ashok Malhotra: You are making a marketing asessment

14:53:33 <Ashok> Sandro:  Clear that JSON has market ... not clear if JSON-LD has market

Sandro Hawke: Clear that JSON has market ... not clear if JSON-LD has market

14:54:45 <Ashok> Arnaud:  We are not forcing servers to convert ... it's a SHOULD

Arnaud Le Hors: We are not forcing servers to convert ... it's a SHOULD

14:55:09 <Zakim> -nmihindu

Zakim IRC Bot: -nmihindu

14:55:50 <Ashok> Ted: MUST for both format is best

Ted Thibodeau: MUST for both format is best

14:56:51 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-97 with adding JSON-LD as a SHOULD in the spec, if we can in W3C process without another Last Call; if it'll require another LC, then we advocate for it in BP.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-97 with adding JSON-LD as a SHOULD in the spec, if we can in W3C process without another Last Call; if it'll require another LC, then we advocate for it in BP.

14:56:55 <Ashok> Arnaud:  We can put a SHOULD for JSON-LD in spec or put in BP

Arnaud Le Hors: We can put a SHOULD for JSON-LD in spec or put in BP

14:57:03 <codyburleson> There is a marketing factor at play here that shouldn't be discounted. Turtle is meaningless to the "average" web developer. JSON-LD provides an option that is meaningful for them. If we want to successful, we need to appeal to the broader audience. So, I agree that is SHOULD be in the spec; not BPs.

Cody Burleson: There is a marketing factor at play here that shouldn't be discounted. Turtle is meaningless to the "average" web developer. JSON-LD provides an option that is meaningful for them. If we want to successful, we need to appeal to the broader audience. So, I agree that is SHOULD be in the spec; not BPs.

14:57:19 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

14:57:24 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1

Bart van Leeuwen: +1

14:57:33 <codyburleson> +1

Cody Burleson: +1

14:57:35 <MiguelAraCo> +1

Miguel Aragón: +1

14:57:37 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

14:57:37 <Ashok> +1

+1

14:57:44 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

14:57:44 <deiu> +1 (just to help with adoption, but I would rather see a MUST instead)

Andrei Sambra: +1 (just to help with adoption, but I would rather see a MUST instead)

14:57:58 <roger_> +1

Roger Menday: +1

14:58:03 <JohnArwe> +1

John Arwe: +1

14:58:15 <MiguelAraCo> (I agree with deiu)

Miguel Aragón: (I agree with deiu)

14:58:16 <ericP> -.1 # i'm uncomfortable engouth with sneaking this in after LC to whine about it, but not uncomfortable do something else

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -.1 # i'm uncomfortable engouth with sneaking this in after LC to whine about it, but not uncomfortable do something else

14:58:21 <betehess> +0

Alexandre Bertails: +0

14:58:23 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close issue-97 with adding JSON-LD as a SHOULD in the spec, if we can in W3C process without another Last Call; if it'll require another LC, then we advocate for it in BP.

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-97 with adding JSON-LD as a SHOULD in the spec, if we can in W3C process without another Last Call; if it'll require another LC, then we advocate for it in BP.

14:58:28 <Ashok> Some leaning towards MUST

Some leaning towards MUST

14:58:49 <Ashok> Topic: PATCH Format

4. PATCH Format

14:59:40 <Ashok> Arnaud:  There are different solutions but have no agreement on requirements

Arnaud Le Hors: There are different solutions but have no agreement on requirements

14:59:47 <Ashok> ... and usecases

... and usecases

15:00:48 <Ashok> Sandro:  Need to be able to patch from any graph to any graph and you need every patch to be tractable

Sandro Hawke: Need to be able to patch from any graph to any graph and you need every patch to be tractable

15:01:06 <sandro> (those are my constraints, other people have others)

Sandro Hawke: (those are my constraints, other people have others)

15:01:07 <SteveS> Some prior discussion: Use Cases http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-patch/2013Sep/0000.html

Steve Speicher: Some prior discussion: Use Cases http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-patch/2013Sep/0000.html

15:01:24 <Arnaud>  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1snLP7U97q7wgtsHznnP-RRuAndZNwFytU6q-lrO8U6A/

Arnaud Le Hors: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1snLP7U97q7wgtsHznnP-RRuAndZNwFytU6q-lrO8U6A/

15:01:37 <SteveS>  Requirements: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-patch/2013Sep/0016.html

Steve Speicher: Requirements: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-patch/2013Sep/0016.html

15:01:48 <Ashok> Alexandre presents slides

Alexandre presents slides

15:02:09 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDP_PATCH_Proposals

Sandro Hawke: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDP_PATCH_Proposals

15:04:34 <Ashok> SPARQL patch+skolemization, SPARQL patch w/o skolemization, RDF Patch

SPARQL patch+skolemization, SPARQL patch w/o skolemization, RDF Patch

15:06:03 <Ashok> q+

q+

15:09:10 <SteveS> JSON Merge Patch http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch-02

Steve Speicher: JSON Merge Patch http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch-02

15:09:21 <Ashok> Ashok:  Issue with patching large arrays

Ashok Malhotra: Issue with patching large arrays

15:12:55 <Ashok> q-

q-

15:13:48 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:15:12 <Ashok> Web Payments using JSON-LD and JSON patch

Web Payments using JSON-LD and JSON patch

15:21:51 <Ashok> Arnaud:  Are you agruing for RDF Patch?

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Arnaud Le Hors: Are you agruing for RDF Patch?

15:21:59 <Ashok> Alexandre: Yes

Alexandre Bertails: Yes

15:22:46 <Arnaud> ack sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro

15:24:15 <Ashok> Sandro:  Easy if you don't have blank nodes.  So I said use Skolemization.

Sandro Hawke: Easy if you don't have blank nodes. So I said use Skolemization.

15:24:32 <Ashok> ... Eric argues that Skolemization is expensive

... Eric argues that Skolemization is expensive

15:25:36 <Ashok> Sandro:  You could serialize triples to add and triples to delete in Turtle

Sandro Hawke: You could serialize triples to add and triples to delete in Turtle

15:25:42 <SteveS> q+ to ask if there really is a single universal solution for patch

Steve Speicher: q+ to ask if there really is a single universal solution for patch

15:27:42 <Arnaud> ack steves

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves

15:27:42 <Zakim> SteveS, you wanted to ask if there really is a single universal solution for patch

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveS, you wanted to ask if there really is a single universal solution for patch

15:27:43 <Ashok> Discussion about blank nodes can be identified

Discussion about blank nodes can be identified

15:28:52 <Ashok> Arnaud:  Either we agree to something that's not perfect or we have no solution at all.

Arnaud Le Hors: Either we agree to something that's not perfect or we have no solution at all.

15:29:00 <Ashok> q+

q+

15:29:35 <sandro> Pick your poison: blank-node-identifiers or worst-case-fails

Sandro Hawke: Pick your poison: blank-node-identifiers or worst-case-fails

15:30:08 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:30:30 <sandro> q+ to say where LDP *needs* patch (huge containers)

Sandro Hawke: q+ to say where LDP *needs* patch (huge containers)

15:30:33 <Ashok> Steves:  My usecase is more towards a lightweight RDF Patch.  Limited requirements.

Steve Speicher: My usecase is more towards a lightweight RDF Patch. Limited requirements.

15:31:00 <Arnaud> ack ashok

Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok

15:32:33 <Ashok> Ashok:  Alexandre, is there a document we can point to?

Ashok Malhotra: Alexandre, is there a document we can point to?

15:33:06 <Arnaud> ack sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro

15:33:06 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say where LDP *needs* patch (huge containers)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to say where LDP *needs* patch (huge containers)

15:33:50 <Ashok> Sandro:  What do LDP users really need?

Sandro Hawke: What do LDP users really need?

15:34:23 <Ashok> ... add/delete triple from huge graph ... no blank nodes

... add/delete triple from huge graph ... no blank nodes

15:34:42 <Ashok> ... cannot use PUT

... cannot use PUT

15:37:29 <betehess> Arnaud, define "big" :-)

Alexandre Bertails: Arnaud, define "big" :-)

15:39:46 <Ashok> Discussion about Skolemization and how expensive it is

Discussion about Skolemization and how expensive it is

15:43:39 <sandro> sandro: One could also do a nice, efficient streaming protocol for maintaining sync

Sandro Hawke: One could also do a nice, efficient streaming protocol for maintaining sync [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:43:50 <Ashok> Arnaud:  This seems to be brainstorming.  How to we make progress?  Can we reach a compromise?

Arnaud Le Hors: This seems to be brainstorming. How to we make progress? Can we reach a compromise?

15:45:11 <Ashok> Sandro:  Requirement: There is a big graph in a triple store and you want to change a few triples in it

Sandro Hawke: Requirement: There is a big graph in a triple store and you want to change a few triples in it

15:45:52 <Ashok> ... must be able to patch any graph

... must be able to patch any graph

15:46:19 <betehess> also, remember that there will be a time to see what is supported in implementations... who is planning to implement one of the solutions?

Alexandre Bertails: also, remember that there will be a time to see what is supported in implementations... who is planning to implement one of the solutions?

15:48:42 <betehess>  question: do we want to be able to patch _any_ graph? or do we think "realistic" (define realistic) graphs are just ok

Alexandre Bertails: question: do we want to be able to patch _any_ graph? or do we think "realistic" (define realistic) graphs are just ok

15:48:50 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: a) I'd rather keep it simple and accept a limited solution, b) I want a general solution and am willing to accept the additional cost

STRAWPOLL: a) I'd rather keep it simple and accept a limited solution, b) I want a general solution and am willing to accept the additional cost

15:49:18 <betehess> strong a)

Alexandre Bertails: strong a)

15:49:29 <Ashok> q+

q+

15:50:35 <Arnaud> ack ashok

Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok

15:50:46 <ericP> this puts universality and tractibility at odds

Eric Prud'hommeaux: this puts universality and tractibility at odds

15:50:58 <TallTed> require universality; require tractability; require both; require neither...

Ted Thibodeau: require universality; require tractability; require both; require neither...

15:52:58 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: If we suggest one PATCH format, we make it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps

STRAWPOLL: If we suggest one PATCH format, we make it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps

15:54:19 <betehess> sandro, that's not a strawpoll, that's a fact

Alexandre Bertails: sandro, that's not a strawpoll, that's a fact

15:54:30 <sandro> :-)

Sandro Hawke: :-)

15:54:52 <betehess> my answer: yes :-)

Alexandre Bertails: my answer: yes :-)

15:55:06 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: If we suggest one PATCH format, we make it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps.    Vote for which branch you'd rather live with;

STRAWPOLL: If we suggest one PATCH format, we make it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps. Vote for which branch you'd rather live with;

15:55:38 <sandro> STRAWPOLL:  (Assuming we suggest one PATCH format) should it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps.

STRAWPOLL: (Assuming we suggest one PATCH format) should it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps.

15:58:23 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: I'd rather have a solution that (a) doesn't address certain pathological graphs, or (b) requires the server to maintain Skolemization maps

STRAWPOLL: I'd rather have a solution that (a) doesn't address certain pathological graphs, or (b) requires the server to maintain Skolemization maps

15:58:47 <betehess> strong (a)

Alexandre Bertails: strong (a)

15:58:48 <deiu> a) I don't want to pay a high price every time, regardless of case (while also maintaining skolemized versions), AND because I also want to do the PATCH operation in one request

Andrei Sambra: a) I don't want to pay a high price every time, regardless of case (while also maintaining skolemized versions), AND because I also want to do the PATCH operation in one request

15:58:49 <ericP> a

Eric Prud'hommeaux: a

15:58:55 <sandro> -1 go to lunch   :-)

Sandro Hawke: -1 go to lunch :-)

15:59:17 <SteveS> a +1, b -0 [we do a) first and can do b) later if needed]

Steve Speicher: a +1, b -0 [we do a) first and can do b) later if needed]

15:59:21 <ericP> OBJECT

Eric Prud'hommeaux: OBJECT

15:59:40 <deiu> a) +1, b) +0

Andrei Sambra: a) +1, b) +0

15:59:43 <sandro> a -0, b +0

Sandro Hawke: a -0, b +0

15:59:47 <ericP> a +1, b -.5

Eric Prud'hommeaux: a +1, b -.5

15:59:48 <MiguelAraCo> a) +1

Miguel Aragón: a) +1

15:59:49 <betehess> (a) +1 (b) -.9

Alexandre Bertails: (a) +1 (b) -.9

16:00:32 <BartvanLeeuwen> a) +1

Bart van Leeuwen: a) +1

16:00:45 <JohnArwe> a +1, b (if needed as fallback) +0.5 ... I would prefer a better understanding of which graphs are considered pathological

John Arwe: a +1, b (if needed as fallback) +0.5 ... I would prefer a better understanding of which graphs are considered pathological

16:01:03 <roger> (a) +1, (b) -0.5, but, mostly plan on using domain specific ways to do PATCH like things

Roger Menday: (a) +1, (b) -0.5, but, mostly plan on using domain specific ways to do PATCH like things

16:01:37 <Ashok> a

a

16:01:41 <TallTed> general solution for all but pathological case; once that's recognized, fall back to Skolemnize

Ted Thibodeau: general solution for all but pathological case; once that's recognized, fall back to Skolemnize

16:02:07 <codyburleson> a) +1

Cody Burleson: a) +1

16:02:36 <Ashok> Sandro:  Still question on expressiveness

Sandro Hawke: Still question on expressiveness

16:03:08 <Ashok> Alexandre:  Do we want to handle blank nodes or not

Alexandre Bertails: Do we want to handle blank nodes or not

16:04:26 <Ashok> Eric:  Question is whether you have variables and xxx

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Question is whether you have variables and xxx

16:06:39 <Ashok> Eric:  Not hard to produce a spec on SPARQL patch

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Not hard to produce a spec on SPARQL patch

16:07:58 <Zakim> -codyburleson

Zakim IRC Bot: -codyburleson

16:08:03 <Arnaud> lunch break until 12:45 local

Arnaud Le Hors: lunch break until 12:45 local

16:08:06 <BartvanLeeuwen> enjoy lunch

Bart van Leeuwen: enjoy lunch

16:08:11 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen

Zakim IRC Bot: -BartvanLeeuwen

16:08:12 <Arnaud> zakim, mute ericp

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, mute ericp

16:08:13 <Zakim> ericP should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP should now be muted

16:08:41 <ericP> i'll see your mutation and raise you a departure

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'll see your mutation and raise you a departure

16:08:47 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

16:09:00 <Ashok> BREAK UNTIL 1PM EASTERN

BREAK UNTIL 1PM EASTERN

16:09:12 <JohnArwe> i.e. for ~51 mins

John Arwe: i.e. for ~51 mins

16:11:49 <BartvanLeeuwen> thats gone be a quick dinner for me ;)

Bart van Leeuwen: thats gone be a quick dinner for me ;)

16:50:50 <deiu> scribenick: deiu

(No events recorded for 39 minutes)

(Scribe set to Andrei Sambra)

16:51:10 <deiu> Arnaud: resuming meeting

Arnaud Le Hors: resuming meeting

16:51:26 <deiu> ... we can spend 1h on PATCH and maybe another hour on paging

... we can spend 1h on PATCH and maybe another hour on paging

16:52:35 <deiu> ... the poll was a useful exercise, so now we know what are the problems we need to solve

... the poll was a useful exercise, so now we know what are the problems we need to solve

16:52:45 <deiu> ... the question is: is there a solution?

... the question is: is there a solution?

16:53:01 <deiu> ... what can we agree on to make progress?

... what can we agree on to make progress?

16:53:23 <deiu> betehess: we have two solutions: ericP's (with BGP) and Pierre-Antoine's solution

Alexandre Bertails: we have two solutions: ericP's (with BGP) and Pierre-Antoine's solution

16:53:41 <deiu> sandro: what about RDF patch?

Sandro Hawke: what about RDF patch?

16:53:47 <deiu> betehess: it needs skolemization

Alexandre Bertails: it needs skolemization

16:54:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:54:12 <deiu> sandro: Tim's is not expressed in concrete terms...

Sandro Hawke: Tim's is not expressed in concrete terms...

16:54:41 <deiu> betehess: that's basically ericP's solution, with additional constraints

Alexandre Bertails: that's basically ericP's solution, with additional constraints

16:54:55 <deiu> Arnaud: let's have a straw poll on these two options

Arnaud Le Hors: let's have a straw poll on these two options

16:55:15 <deiu> sandro: the big difference is that one feels like SPARQL and the other one doesn't

Sandro Hawke: the big difference is that one feels like SPARQL and the other one doesn't

16:55:31 <deiu> ... "feeling" like SPARQL is a negative point for LDP adoption

... "feeling" like SPARQL is a negative point for LDP adoption

16:56:08 <betehess> solutions are: ericP's SPARQL Update with constrained BGP  vs  Pierre-Antoine's RDF Patch + property path

Alexandre Bertails: solutions are: ericP's SPARQL Update with constrained BGP vs Pierre-Antoine's RDF Patch + property path

16:56:15 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: pursue a) ericP's (with BGP) or b) Pierre-Antoine's solution

STRAWPOLL: pursue a) ericP's (with BGP) or b) Pierre-Antoine's solution

16:56:59 <deiu> a) 0 b) +1

a) 0 b) +1

16:57:02 <roger> a) -0.5, b) 0.5

Roger Menday: a) -0.5, b) 0.5

16:57:04 <betehess> a) +0 (not disagreeing with ericP's view)  b) +1

Alexandre Bertails: a) +0 (not disagreeing with ericP's view) b) +1

16:57:19 <sandro> a -0.5 b 0.5

Sandro Hawke: a -0.5 b 0.5

16:57:30 <TallTed> a +0.5   b +0.25

Ted Thibodeau: a +0.5 b +0.25

16:58:02 <SteveS> a) +.1 b) +.9

Steve Speicher: a) +.1 b) +.9

16:58:10 <Ashok> 0, 1

Ashok Malhotra: 0, 1

17:00:03 <MiguelAraCo> a) +0.5 b) -.5

Miguel Aragón: a) +0.5 b) -.5

17:00:56 <Zakim> +??P1

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1

17:01:05 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P1 is me

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, ??P1 is me

17:01:05 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +nmihindu; got it

17:01:12 <nmihindu> Zakim, mute me

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, mute me

17:01:12 <Zakim> nmihindu should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: nmihindu should now be muted

17:01:53 <Zakim> +[IBM]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM]

17:02:20 <betehess> q+ to comment on syntax

Alexandre Bertails: q+ to comment on syntax

17:02:35 <Arnaud> ack betehess

Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess

17:02:35 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to comment on syntax

Zakim IRC Bot: betehess, you wanted to comment on syntax

17:03:07 <Zakim> -[IBM]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IBM]

17:03:29 <betehess> Arnaud: we are not married to this syntax, could be JSON

Arnaud Le Hors: we are not married to this syntax, could be JSON [ Scribe Assist by Alexandre Bertails ]

17:03:58 <deiu> Arnaud: what do we take from this?

Arnaud Le Hors: what do we take from this?

17:04:10 <deiu> ... the majority seems to prefer b)

... the majority seems to prefer b)

17:04:49 <deiu> ... what's the status of PA's proposal? is it written somewhere?

... what's the status of PA's proposal? is it written somewhere?

17:05:00 <deiu> betehess: no, it isn't, but I plan to do it

Alexandre Bertails: no, it isn't, but I plan to do it

17:05:44 <deiu> ... I can also provide a test suite and implementation

... I can also provide a test suite and implementation

17:06:10 <deiu> Arnaud: do we agree this is the next step? (start drafting the PATCH spec)

Arnaud Le Hors: do we agree this is the next step? (start drafting the PATCH spec)

17:06:31 <deiu> ... then we have consensus

... then we have consensus

17:06:53 <deiu> sandro: we can make it a REC track

Sandro Hawke: we can make it a REC track

17:07:42 <deiu> Arnaud: there's a big difference, not just in the outcome but in what we do towards it

Arnaud Le Hors: there's a big difference, not just in the outcome but in what we do towards it

17:07:42 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

17:07:47 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P12 is me

Bart van Leeuwen: Zakim, ??P12 is me

17:07:47 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +BartvanLeeuwen; got it

17:08:11 <betehess> LD Patch

Alexandre Bertails: LD Patch

17:08:21 <deiu> Arnaud: how do we name it?

Arnaud Le Hors: how do we name it?

17:09:11 <deiu> betehess: the full name can be "LD patch format" and the short name can be "LD patch"

Alexandre Bertails: the full name can be "LD patch format" and the short name can be "LD patch"

17:09:31 <betehess> LD Patch Format, would live at http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-patch/

Alexandre Bertails: Linked Data Patch Format, would live at http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-patch/

17:09:42 <sandro> Linked Data Patch Format

Sandro Hawke: Linked Data Patch Format

17:09:45 <betehess> Linked Data Patch Format, would live at http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-patch/

Alexandre Bertails: Linked Data Patch Format, would live at http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-patch/

17:09:48 <sandro> ldpatch

Sandro Hawke: ldpatch

17:09:59 <sandro> ld-patch

Sandro Hawke: ld-patch

17:09:59 <deiu> s/LD Patch Format/Linked Data Patch Format/g
17:11:10 <sandro> PROPOSED: We encourage Alexandre to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal

PROPOSED: We encourage Alexandre to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal

17:12:10 <SteveS> +1 (encourage yes, require/mandate is even better ;)

Steve Speicher: +1 (encourage yes, require/mandate is even better ;)

17:12:42 <deiu> +1

+1

17:12:43 <nmihindu> +1

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1

17:12:45 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

17:12:45 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

17:12:46 <betehess> +1

Alexandre Bertails: +1

17:12:54 <Ashok> +1

Ashok Malhotra: +1

17:12:57 <roger> +1

Roger Menday: +1

17:13:15 <codyburleson> +0

Cody Burleson: +0

17:13:19 <betehess>  /me feels encouraged

Alexandre Bertails: /me feels encouraged

17:13:31 <sandro> RESOLVED: We encourage Alexandre to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal

RESOLVED: We agree to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal

17:14:17 <deiu> Arnaud: the resolution is that as a group we will start working on PA's proposal, while betehess will write it down in the document

Arnaud Le Hors: the resolution is that as a group we will start working on PA's proposal, while betehess will write it down in the document

17:15:11 <Arnaud> s/We encourage Alexandre/We agree/
17:15:32 <deiu> Arnaud: now betehess can take an action to do it

Arnaud Le Hors: now betehess can take an action to do it

17:16:29 <deiu> ... then we're done with PATCH for today!

... then we're done with PATCH for today!

17:16:33 <betehess> ACTION: betehess to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal

ACTION: betehess to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal

17:16:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-139 - Draft a linked data patch format, along the lines of pierre-antoine's proposal [on Alexandre Bertails - due 2014-04-24].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-139 - Draft a linked data patch format, along the lines of pierre-antoine's proposal [on Alexandre Bertails - due 2014-04-24].

17:16:47 <deiu> ... I think everyone's happy with this

... I think everyone's happy with this

17:17:08 <deiu> Topic: Paging specification continues

5. Paging specification continues

17:17:19 <deiu> Arnaud: Ashok has a proposal for us

Arnaud Le Hors: Ashok has a proposal for us

17:17:34 <deiu> Ashok: it looks we're not agreeing on one solution right now

Ashok Malhotra: it looks we're not agreeing on one solution right now

17:17:49 <deiu> ... most solutions have caveats

... most solutions have caveats

17:18:18 <deiu> ... so we could add a warning, saying that if you do paging, the collection may change

... so we could add a warning, saying that if you do paging, the collection may change

17:18:29 <deiu> Arnaud: I think we have agreed that we can do better

Arnaud Le Hors: I think we have agreed that we can do better

17:18:49 <deiu> ... today we're not providing any mechanisms in that regard

... today we're not providing any mechanisms in that regard

17:19:21 <deiu> ... yesterday we were left with 2 options: what we have in the spec + notification (which doesn't stop the client from continuing); the second option was to pursue sandro's proposal

... yesterday we were left with 2 options: what we have in the spec + notification (which doesn't stop the client from continuing); the second option was to pursue sandro's proposal

17:19:43 <deiu> TallTed: adding this editorially to the existing spec makes it clear what you get

Ted Thibodeau: adding this editorially to the existing spec makes it clear what you get

17:19:49 <deiu> sandro: it's clear in the spec that it is lossy

Sandro Hawke: it's clear in the spec that it is lossy

17:20:08 <deiu> ... the spec has the word "lossy"

... the spec has the word "lossy"

17:21:10 <deiu> Arnaud: so basically sandro wants to veto this

Arnaud Le Hors: so basically sandro wants to veto this

17:22:00 <deiu> ... we've agreed that we will do the notification (which is supposed to be mandatory) so the clients know if there was a change during paging

... we've agreed that we will do the notification (which is supposed to be mandatory) so the clients know if there was a change during paging

17:22:07 <deiu> sandro: ok, I can live with that

Sandro Hawke: ok, I can live with that

17:23:06 <sandro>  WARNING: YOU MIGHT NOT SEE INSERTIONS OR DELETTIONS THAT MIGHT HAPPEN DURING PAGING.

Sandro Hawke: WARNING: YOU MIGHT NOT SEE INSERTIONS OR DELETTIONS THAT MIGHT HAPPEN DURING PAGING.

17:23:14 <sandro> +1 that's all I've ever asked for.

Sandro Hawke: +1 that's all I've ever asked for.

17:23:58 <TallTed> we do also have --  7.1.1 A LDP client SHOULD NOT present paged resources as coherent or complete, or make assumptions to that effect. [RFC5005].

Ted Thibodeau: we do also have -- 7.1.1 A LDP client SHOULD NOT present paged resources as coherent or complete, or make assumptions to that effect. [RFC5005].

17:24:03 <sandro> (because it implies you WILL see triples that are there the whole time)

Sandro Hawke: (because it implies you WILL see triples that are there the whole time)

17:24:12 <deiu> Arnaud: triples that were there when you started and are still there when you end, are definitely seen by the client

Arnaud Le Hors: triples that were there when you started and are still there when you end, are definitely seen by the client

17:26:47 <deiu> ... this is a clarification of how lossy paging is

... this is a clarification of how lossy paging is

17:27:10 <deiu> sandro: is everyone ok with the wording?

Sandro Hawke: is everyone ok with the wording?

17:27:18 <deiu> TallTed: I'm not ok with any wording so far

Ted Thibodeau: I'm not ok with any wording so far

17:27:41 <deiu> sandro: are you ok with having test cases that cover the lossy behavior?

Sandro Hawke: are you ok with having test cases that cover the lossy behavior?

17:29:20 <SteveS> Anyone have a reference to a source code copyright/license header for W3C test suites?

Steve Speicher: Anyone have a reference to a source code copyright/license header for W3C test suites?

17:29:28 <deiu> TallTed: if I'm on the page with items 11-20, and someone deletes 19, what is the first item on the next page?

Ted Thibodeau: if I'm on the page with items 11-20, and someone deletes 19, what is the first item on the next page?

17:30:10 <deiu> sandro: I would like to have a test case for those cases

Sandro Hawke: I would like to have a test case for those cases

17:30:59 <deiu> Ashok: if the server remembers the first and last triples it displays, then if you do a delete, then it's ok

Ashok Malhotra: if the server remembers the first and last triples it displays, then if you do a delete, then it's ok

17:31:17 <deiu> ... so the triples won't move around between pages

... so the triples won't move around between pages

17:31:35 <deiu> TallTed: things will appear to shift if you scroll back and forth (or if you reload the same page)

Ted Thibodeau: things will appear to shift if you scroll back and forth (or if you reload the same page)

17:32:02 <deiu> ... if you reload the same page you may not see the same data (same for scrolling) -> these are the warnings

... if you reload the same page you may not see the same data (same for scrolling) -> these are the warnings

17:32:33 <deiu> Arnaud: people are starting to see the value in sandro's proposal

Arnaud Le Hors: people are starting to see the value in sandro's proposal

17:32:43 <deiu> ... we still need to agree on how to word it

... we still need to agree on how to word it

17:33:57 <deiu> Arnaud: I think the lossly aspect is especially important in the case where the client doesn't choose when things get paged

Arnaud Le Hors: I think the lossly aspect is especially important in the case where the client doesn't choose when things get paged

17:35:14 <deiu> Ashok: when the client starts to page, it caches the collection and then pages over the cache, but it may not have enough space

Ashok Malhotra: when the client starts to page, it caches the collection and then pages over the cache, but it may not have enough space

17:35:26 <TallTed> PROPOSAL: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown as

PROPOSED: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown as

17:35:26 <TallTed>  such. All pages should be tagged NoCache.

Ted Thibodeau: such. All pages should be tagged NoCache.

17:37:31 <deiu> [people don't like the NoCache bit]

[people don't like the NoCache bit]

17:37:37 <TallTed> PROPOSAL: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown as

PROPOSED: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown as

17:37:38 <TallTed>  such. Caching flags TBD.

Ted Thibodeau: such. Caching flags TBD.

17:38:07 <TallTed> PROPOSAL: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown.

PROPOSED: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown.

17:41:01 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

17:41:13 <sandro> +1 as long as we're clear this is really an implementation technique, and the key point is the underlying invariant

Sandro Hawke: +1 as long as we're clear this is really an implementation technique, and the key point is the underlying invariant

17:41:16 <betehess> +0

Alexandre Bertails: +0

17:41:26 <Ashok> +1

Ashok Malhotra: +1

17:41:28 <deiu> +0.9(9999)

+0.9(9999)

17:41:31 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

17:41:43 <roger> +0.8

Roger Menday: +0.8

17:41:43 <SteveS> +next

Steve Speicher: +next

17:41:50 <nmihindu> +1

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1

17:41:53 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1

Bart van Leeuwen: +1

17:42:15 <MiguelAraCo> +.5

Miguel Aragón: +.5

17:42:20 <MiguelAraCo> +0.5

Miguel Aragón: +0.5

17:42:28 <sandro> sandro: for eample, you could have pages that are determined by the content

Sandro Hawke: for eample, you could have pages that are determined by the content [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:42:33 <deiu> Ashok: suppose I don't care about updates and I just want to page, and if the contents change then I'm ok with it, then am I allowed to do that?

Ashok Malhotra: suppose I don't care about updates and I just want to page, and if the contents change then I'm ok with it, then am I allowed to do that?

17:42:37 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown.

RESOLVED: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown.

17:43:32 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: I prefer paging to be controlled by a) the client b) the server

STRAWPOLL: I prefer paging to be controlled by a) the client b) the server

17:44:13 <sandro> sandro: If the server wants to implement by doing a snapshot, it's welcome to.   That meets the invariant.

Sandro Hawke: If the server wants to implement by doing a snapshot, it's welcome to. That meets the invariant. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:44:43 <deiu> sandro: the client sends a "preferred page size header" to initiate paging

Sandro Hawke: the client sends a "preferred page size header" to initiate paging

17:49:38 <sandro> sandro: it's not aboiut the client being resource limited, so much as the client wanting to focus on a particular bit.

Sandro Hawke: it's not aboiut the client being resource limited, so much as the client wanting to focus on a particular bit. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:49:55 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: I prefer paging to be initiated by a) the client b) the server

STRAWPOLL: I prefer paging to be initiated by a) the client b) the server

17:50:43 <Ashok> a)

Ashok Malhotra: a)

17:50:56 <TallTed> c - either

Ted Thibodeau: c - either

17:51:08 <deiu> a)

a)

17:52:44 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

17:53:06 <sandro> a

Sandro Hawke: a

17:53:09 <betehess> c - potentially both

Alexandre Bertails: c - potentially both

17:54:04 <sandro> How about:     Prefer: Page-Size-KB=100

Sandro Hawke: How about: Prefer: Page-Size-KB=100

17:54:51 <sandro> How about:     Prefer: Page-Size-KB=unlim

Sandro Hawke: How about: Prefer: Page-Size-KB=unlim

17:56:15 <deiu> =*

=*

17:57:35 <sandro> sandro: Is it the case that the client MUST understand paging?

Sandro Hawke: Is it the case that the client MUST understand paging? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:58:50 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: The server MAY do paging even if the client hasn't asked for it

STRAWPOLL: The server MAY do paging even if the client hasn't asked for it

17:59:07 <sandro> (today in the spec, means the client MUST understand paging.)

Sandro Hawke: (today in the spec, means the client MUST understand paging.)

17:59:29 <sandro> (as in the spec today)

Sandro Hawke: (as in the spec today)

17:59:43 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

17:59:46 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

17:59:46 <Ashok> +1

Ashok Malhotra: +1

17:59:47 <sandro> +0

Sandro Hawke: +0

17:59:48 <deiu> -0.9

-0.9

17:59:53 <MiguelAraCo> +1

Miguel Aragón: +1

18:00:02 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1

Bart van Leeuwen: +1

18:00:12 <betehess> +1

Alexandre Bertails: +1

18:00:28 <codyburleson> +0

Cody Burleson: +0

18:01:23 <deiu> Arnaud: so we have consensus

Arnaud Le Hors: so we have consensus

18:01:37 <sandro> STRAWPOLL:     We'll allow for clients to ask for paging, ask for no paging, and ask for page size

STRAWPOLL: We'll allow for clients to ask for paging, ask for no paging, and ask for page size

18:01:52 <deiu> ... we can talk about page sizes or no page, or what are the preferences the clients can convey to servers

... we can talk about page sizes or no page, or what are the preferences the clients can convey to servers

18:02:53 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

18:04:42 <SteveS> +0 (could defer until a LDP.next)

Steve Speicher: +0 (could defer until a LDP.next)

18:05:00 <deiu> +0 (same as SteveS)

+0 (same as SteveS)

18:05:28 <betehess> +0

Alexandre Bertails: +0

18:05:44 <nmihindu> +0.5 (would nice to have if possible)

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +0.5 (would nice to have if possible)

18:05:53 <Ashok> +1

Ashok Malhotra: +1

18:06:17 <roger> +0.5

Roger Menday: +0.5

18:08:55 <deiu> deiu: paging can be replaced by sorting+filtering+limit

Andrei Sambra: paging can be replaced by sorting+filtering+limit+offset

18:10:05 <TallTed> s/+limit/+limit+offset/
18:13:30 <deiu> Arnaud: filtering is pretty complicated

Arnaud Le Hors: filtering is pretty complicated

18:13:40 <deiu> betehess: what about the scope of bnodes between pages

Alexandre Bertails: what about the scope of bnodes between pages

18:15:03 <deiu> Arnaud: the client should have a say regarding the paging preference

Arnaud Le Hors: the client should have a say regarding the paging preference

18:16:25 <TallTed> HTTP code 413 	Payload Too Large -- as a result of the client asking for max-result=10KB + whatever request

Ted Thibodeau: HTTP code 413 Payload Too Large -- as a result of the client asking for max-result=10KB + whatever request

18:17:23 <deiu> roger: you could SPARQL to page over the results

Roger Menday: you could SPARQL to page over the results

18:19:00 <deiu> ... we can use subsets of SPARQL for paging and/or patch

... we can use subsets of SPARQL for paging and/or patch

18:21:00 <deiu> sandro: if a clients says "I want the top 10 items", it also know more about the shape of the graphs than the server

Sandro Hawke: if a clients says "I want the top 10 items", it also knows more about the shape of the graphs than the server

18:21:12 <deiu> s/know/knows
18:21:35 <deiu> ... there could be a "group by subject" clause to define the items that will be returned

... there could be a "group by subject" clause to define the items that will be returned

18:23:33 <deiu> Arnaud: I still think the best way is to allow the client to say "I want paging" or "I don't want paging"

Arnaud Le Hors: I still think the best way is to allow the client to say "I want paging" or "I don't want paging"

18:28:32 <deiu> [sandro propses a way to do paging over periods of time - i.e. sending data over 100 ms ]

[sandro propses a way to do paging over periods of time - i.e. sending data over 100 ms ]

18:29:53 <deiu> SteveS: we couldn't come up with something that made sense in OSLC

Steve Speicher: we couldn't come up with something that made sense in OSLC

18:30:12 <deiu> ... small/medium/large are very relative

... small/medium/large are very relative

18:31:09 <deiu> sandro: then what about time? (if size in kb is not good)

Sandro Hawke: then what about time? (if size in kb is not good)

18:31:49 <deiu> betehess: if you're the client, then you do paging based on a rough idea of the ration between the triple and the size

Alexandre Bertails: if you're the client, then you do paging based on a rough idea of the ration between the triple and the size

18:31:55 <deiu> ... so I guess the triple is fine

... so I guess the triple is fine

18:38:51 <deiu> Arnaud: people are now saying that maybe we can give a page size in triples

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Arnaud Le Hors: people are now saying that maybe we can give a page size in triples

18:41:31 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all

PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all

18:42:06 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all.  Size in number of triples, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item.

PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all. Size in number of triples, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item.

18:42:23 <deiu> +1

+1

18:42:35 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

18:42:38 <betehess> +1

Alexandre Bertails: +1

18:42:41 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

18:42:44 <Ashok> +1

Ashok Malhotra: +1

18:42:47 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1

Bart van Leeuwen: +1

18:42:50 <nmihindu> +1

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1

18:42:51 <sandro> +0.5 (only because number-of-triples isn't the right metric)

Sandro Hawke: +0.5 (only because number-of-triples isn't the right metric)

18:43:28 <Ashok> Roger: +1

Roger Menday: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Ashok Malhotra ]

18:43:54 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all.  Size in number of KILOBYTES, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item.

PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all. Size in number of KILOBYTES, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item.

18:44:05 <sandro> +1   :-)

Sandro Hawke: +1 :-)

18:44:17 <betehess> -0.1

Alexandre Bertails: -0.1

18:44:20 <deiu> 0

0

18:44:23 <SteveS> 0

Steve Speicher: 0

18:44:25 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

18:44:27 <Ashok> -1

Ashok Malhotra: -1

18:44:30 <roger> 0

Roger Menday: 0

18:44:33 <BartvanLeeuwen> 0

Bart van Leeuwen: 0

18:44:43 <codyburleson> 0

Cody Burleson: 0

18:45:12 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all.  Size in number of triples, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item.

RESOLVED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all. Size in number of triples, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item.

18:45:29 <deiu> Arnaud: we can discuss the details later

Arnaud Le Hors: we can discuss the details later

18:46:55 <deiu> ... are there more issues re. paging?

... are there more issues re. paging?

18:47:10 <deiu> ... we have tackled the most important ones

... we have tackled the most important ones

18:47:19 <sandro> how about:   Prefer: Page-Size=100

Sandro Hawke: how about: Prefer: Page-Size=100

18:47:19 <sandro> and Prefer:  Page-Size=*  (for no paging)     or Page-Size=No-Paging

Sandro Hawke: and Prefer: Page-Size=* (for no paging) or Page-Size=No-Paging

18:49:13 <deiu> Ashok: do you want to add membership triples to the top of the page?

Ashok Malhotra: do you want to add membership triples to the top of the page?

18:49:33 <deiu> sandro: I think there are one per item (one membership and one containment)

Sandro Hawke: I think there are one per item (one membership and one containment)

18:49:51 <sandro> PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples MUST be on the same page as each other.

PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples MUST be on the same page as each other.

18:54:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples for a given resource MUST be on the same page as each other.

PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples for a given resource MUST be on the same page as each other.

18:54:51 <sandro> arnaud: No one is going to have the triples on the same page.

Arnaud Le Hors: No one is going to have the triples on the same page. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

18:55:09 <sandro> PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples for a given (contained/member) resource MUST be on the same page as each other.

PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples for a given (contained/member) resource MUST be on the same page as each other.

18:55:25 <sandro> arnaud: No one is going to have the membership and containment triples on the same page.

Arnaud Le Hors: No one is going to have the membership and containment triples on the same page. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

18:56:24 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

18:56:39 <deiu> 0

0

18:56:48 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

18:56:53 <SteveS> -0.1 (let impls do what makes sense for triples they have)

Steve Speicher: -0.1 (let impls do what makes sense for triples they have)

18:57:34 <betehess> +0 (not sure how useful it is)

Alexandre Bertails: +0 (not sure how useful it is)

18:58:16 <sandro> RESOLVED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triple and containment triple for a given (contained/member) resource MUST be on the same page as each other.

RESOLVED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triple and containment triple for a given (contained/member) resource MUST be on the same page as each other.

18:58:44 <roger> +0.5

Roger Menday: +0.5

18:58:51 <Ashok> +1

Ashok Malhotra: +1

18:59:14 <deiu> Arnaud: I think we have achieved a lot!

Arnaud Le Hors: I think we have achieved a lot!

19:00:03 <deiu> ... people are welcome to stick around for interop testing

... people are welcome to stick around for interop testing

19:00:25 <BartvanLeeuwen> :)

Bart van Leeuwen: :)

19:00:51 <deiu> Arnaud: let's adjourn the meeting

Arnaud Le Hors: let's adjourn the meeting

19:01:04 <deiu> ... on Monday I will host an informative call

... on Monday I will host an informative call

19:01:40 <deiu> ... next formal meeting is on the 28th, when I expect all drafts to be ready

... next formal meeting is on the 28th, when I expect all drafts to be ready

19:01:41 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen

Zakim IRC Bot: -BartvanLeeuwen

19:02:12 <Arnaud> adjourned

Arnaud Le Hors: adjourned

19:02:18 <Zakim> -nmihindu

Zakim IRC Bot: -nmihindu

19:02:18 <sandro> woo hoo!

Sandro Hawke: woo hoo!

19:02:22 <deiu> +1

+1

19:02:28 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

19:06:49 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting

Arnaud Le Hors: trackbot, end meeting

19:06:49 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

19:06:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been codyburleson, BartvanLeeuwen, nmihindu, Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu, ericP, [IPcaller], [IBM]

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been codyburleson, BartvanLeeuwen, nmihindu, Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu, ericP, [IPcaller], [IBM]

19:06:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

19:06:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-minutes.html trackbot

19:06:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

19:06:58 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-actions.rdf :

19:06:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: betehess to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal [1]

ACTION: betehess to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal [1]

19:06:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-irc#T17-16-33

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-irc#T17-16-33



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