12:56:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-irc ←
12:56:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
12:56:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP ←
12:56:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_LDPWG()8:30AM scheduled to start 26 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see DATA_LDPWG()8:30AM scheduled to start 26 minutes ago ←
12:56:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
12:56:28 <trackbot> Date: 17 April 2014
13:01:51 <Zakim> DATA_LDPWG()8:30AM has now started
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Zakim IRC Bot: DATA_LDPWG()8:30AM has now started ←
13:01:58 <Zakim> +MIT-F2F-group
Zakim IRC Bot: +MIT-F2F-group ←
13:03:18 <nmihindu> Zakim, what's the code?
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, what's the code? ←
13:03:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nmihindu
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nmihindu ←
13:03:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
13:03:54 <codyburleson> Zakim, IPcaller is me.
Cody Burleson: Zakim, IPcaller is me. ←
13:03:54 <Zakim> +codyburleson; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +codyburleson; got it ←
13:04:15 <codyburleson> Zakim, who is talking?
Cody Burleson: Zakim, who is talking? ←
13:04:15 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
13:04:22 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
13:04:24 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P17 is me
Bart van Leeuwen: Zakim, ??P17 is me ←
13:04:24 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +BartvanLeeuwen; got it ←
13:04:26 <Zakim> codyburleson, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
Zakim IRC Bot: codyburleson, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds ←
13:04:34 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P16 is me
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, ??P16 is me ←
13:04:34 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +nmihindu; got it ←
13:04:39 <nmihindu> Zakim, mute me
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, mute me ←
13:04:39 <Zakim> nmihindu should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: nmihindu should now be muted ←
13:05:45 <Ashok> scribenick: Ashok
(Scribe set to Ashok Malhotra)
<Ashok> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F5#Day_3_-_Thursday_April_17
<Ashok> chair: Arnaud
<Ashok> Present: codyburleson, BartvanLeeuwen, nmihindu, Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu, ericP, MiguelAraCo
13:06:47 <Ashok> Topic: Today's agenda
13:06:55 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen
Zakim IRC Bot: -BartvanLeeuwen ←
13:07:14 <Ashok> Arnaud: Access control and Patch format are on the agenda with testing in the afternoon.
Arnaud Le Hors: Access control and Patch format are on the agenda with testing in the afternoon. ←
13:07:18 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
13:07:20 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P17 is me
Bart van Leeuwen: Zakim, ??P17 is me ←
13:07:20 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +BartvanLeeuwen; got it ←
13:07:46 <Ashok> ... I think we need to talk about the spec again. Esp. about JSON-LD.
... I think we need to talk about the spec again. Esp. about JSON-LD. ←
13:07:58 <Ashok> ... also talk about paging a bit more.
... also talk about paging a bit more. ←
13:07:59 <codyburleson> *has also the noise
Cody Burleson: *has also the noise ←
13:08:29 <Ashok> Arnaud: We can delay testing
Arnaud Le Hors: We can delay testing ←
13:09:13 <Ashok> ... start with Access Control Note now. Then spec and paging
... start with Access Control Note now. Then spec and paging ←
13:09:23 <Ashok> ... and patch
... and patch ←
13:09:24 <deiu> Zakim, who is on the call?
Andrei Sambra: Zakim, who is on the call? ←
13:09:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see MIT-F2F-group, codyburleson, nmihindu (muted), BartvanLeeuwen
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see MIT-F2F-group, codyburleson, nmihindu (muted), BartvanLeeuwen ←
13:09:52 <Ashok> Arnaud: I don't see a quick solution to PATCH.
Arnaud Le Hors: I don't see a quick solution to PATCH. ←
13:10:01 <Ashok> Topic: Access Control Note
13:10:25 <deiu> Zakim, MIT-F2F-group has Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu
Andrei Sambra: Zakim, MIT-F2F-group has Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu ←
13:10:25 <Zakim> +Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu; got it ←
13:10:30 <Ashok> Arnaud: This was a compromise we came to when we wrote the charter
Arnaud Le Hors: This was a compromise we came to when we wrote the charter ←
13:11:12 <Ashok> ... did not want to put on charter because it's a hard issue. So we decided on a separate note.
... did not want to put on charter because it's a hard issue. So we decided on a separate note. ←
13:11:48 <codyburleson> Annoying noise just stopped
Cody Burleson: Annoying noise just stopped ←
13:11:56 <Ashok> ... on yesterday's wish list discussion Access Control was high priority
... on yesterday's wish list discussion Access Control was high priority ←
13:12:10 <Ashok> ... we need agreement on usescases
... we need agreement on usescases ←
13:13:01 <deiu> Ashok: we started on this and we have 2 requirements
Ashok Malhotra: we started on this and we have 2 requirements [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ] ←
13:13:09 <deiu> ... one: you need some form of authentication
Andrei Sambra: ... one: you need some form of authentication ←
13:13:29 <deiu> ... however, we don't want to specify the authentication protocol
Andrei Sambra: ... however, we don't want to specify the authentication protocol ←
13:14:14 <deiu> ... second: once you are authenticated (and say you get a token), then you can access various things, update them, etc., so there must be some way to specify what you can do
Andrei Sambra: ... second: once you are authenticated (and say you get a token), then you can access various things, update them, etc., so there must be some way to specify what you can do ←
13:15:10 <deiu> ... the question is: where do we specify that? In LDP, in HTTP? How do we specify what the ACL privileges are?
Andrei Sambra: ... the question is: where do we specify that? In LDP, in HTTP? How do we specify what the ACL privileges are? ←
13:15:41 <deiu> ... our wiki page has example we can build on
Andrei Sambra: ... our wiki page has example we can build on ←
13:16:01 <deiu> ... we haven't gotten further on this because there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm in the group
Andrei Sambra: ... we haven't gotten further on this because there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm in the group ←
13:16:07 <deiu> Arnaud: I agree with that part
Arnaud Le Hors: I agree with that part [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ] ←
13:16:40 <deiu> ... but we should not get sidetracked into discussing the solutions, but instead try to figure out the questions we need to ask ourselves
Andrei Sambra: ... but we should not get sidetracked into discussing the solutions, but instead try to figure out the questions we need to ask ourselves ←
13:17:12 <deiu> Ashok: does fine-grained ACL means access to one attribute?
Ashok Malhotra: does fine-grained ACL means access to one attribute? [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ] ←
13:17:15 <deiu> Arnaud: yes
Arnaud Le Hors: yes [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ] ←
13:17:31 <deiu> Ashok: people also want access to a group of resources, and to specify that group is hard
Ashok Malhotra: people also want access to a group of resources, and to specify that group is hard [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ] ←
13:17:45 <deiu> Arnaud: that's not what we're trying to decide now
Arnaud Le Hors: that's not what we're trying to decide now [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ] ←
13:17:50 <deiu> ... now we want to know what the requirements are
Andrei Sambra: ... now we want to know what the requirements are ←
13:18:09 <deiu> ... let's look at the doc together and decide how we can improve it
Andrei Sambra: ... let's look at the doc together and decide how we can improve it ←
13:18:50 <deiu> ... why don't we go through the use-cases first?
Andrei Sambra: ... why don't we go through the use-cases first? ←
13:20:59 <deiu> Arnaud: do people agree that the use-case involving ACL for group is important?
Arnaud Le Hors: do people agree that the use-case involving ACL for group is important? [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ] ←
13:22:25 <TallTed> Use Case: granting access to a (group of) resources to attendees of a particular session at a conference
Ted Thibodeau: generic requirement: granting access to a (group of) resources to attendees of a particular session at a conference ←
13:24:24 <TallTed> Requirements: group entitites; grant permissions to the group; set permissions on a (group of) resources
Ted Thibodeau: Requirements: group entitites; grant permissions to the group; set permissions on a (group of) resources ←
13:26:17 <Ashok> Ted: Granularity of access control is important
Ted Thibodeau: Granularity of access control is important ←
13:33:50 <TallTed> Requirement: Grant permissions for (set restrictions on) individual (enumeration) entity/resource.
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Ted Thibodeau: Requirement: Grant permissions for (set restrictions on) individual (enumeration) entity/resource. ←
13:34:32 <TallTed> Requirement: Group entities/resources by enumeration (closed ended.)
Ted Thibodeau: Requirement: Group entities/resources by enumeration (closed ended.) ←
13:34:32 <TallTed> Requirement: Group entities/resources by attribute (open ended.)
Ted Thibodeau: Requirement: Group entities/resources by attribute (open ended.) ←
13:35:59 <Ashok> Arnaud: Do we need 3.3?
Arnaud Le Hors: Do we need 3.3? ←
13:36:40 <Ashok> Ted: Disagrees
Ted Thibodeau: Disagrees ←
13:37:36 <Ashok> ... that is should be removed
... that it should be removed ←
13:38:02 <Ashok> s/is/it/
13:40:31 <TallTed> s/Use Case: granting/generic requirement: granting/
13:43:26 <Ashok> Usecase: Ted wants to access/update some resource ... he wants his friends to get acess ... he wants to acess related resources
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Usecase: Ted wants to access/update some resource ... he wants his friends to get acess ... he wants to acess related resources ←
13:44:08 <Ashok> Ted: Change title of 3.4
Ted Thibodeau: Change title of 3.4 ←
13:46:01 <Ashok> Andre: Do we need access control in LDP?
Andrei Sambra: Do we need access control in LDP? ←
13:46:16 <Ashok> ... underlying store will have policies
... underlying store will have policies ←
13:46:29 <Ashok> ... how to expose these policies to client
... how to expose these policies to client ←
13:47:49 <Ashok> Ted: Talks about distinction between usecases and requirements
Ted Thibodeau: Talks about distinction between usecases and requirements ←
13:49:14 <Ashok> Alexandre: Is there anyting special about access control for LDP?
Alexandre Bertails: Is there anyting special about access control for LDP? ←
13:49:32 <Ashok> Ted: Is there a system that satisfies these requirements?
Ted Thibodeau: Is there a system that satisfies these requirements? ←
13:49:46 <Ashok> ... there is no W3C spec that tells us
... there is no W3C spec that tells us ←
13:49:58 <TallTed> Question: Granularity. LDPC? LDPR? attribute within LDPR ("triple level")?
Ted Thibodeau: Question: Granularity. LDPC? LDPR? attribute within LDPR ("triple level")? ←
13:51:43 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
13:53:43 <Ashok> Steves: We have application-specific access control
Steve Speicher: We have application-specific access control ←
13:54:12 <nmihindu> people who are doing similar things today with Linked Data without LDP (Victor from UPM, Serena from Inria) do it as dataset, graph, triple levels as far as I know
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: people who are doing similar things today with Linked Data without LDP (Victor from UPM, Serena from Inria) do it as dataset, graph, triple levels as far as I know ←
13:54:59 <codyburleson> We should escape Identification and Authentication. We need only a URI to represent ANY Principal. Once we have that, we can focuse specifically on Authorization and make no claim about how the Principal URI is derived.
Cody Burleson: We should escape Identification and Authentication. We need only a URI to represent ANY Principal. Once we have that, we can focuse specifically on Authorization and make no claim about how the Principal URI is derived. ←
13:55:08 <Ashok> Andre: We use Wen Acess Control to specify policies ... LDP just uses them
Andrei Sambra: We use Web Acess Control to specify policies ... LDP just uses them ←
13:55:25 <TallTed> Access Control == Identification (e.g., WebID, Username, OpenID) + Authentication (e.g., WebID+TLS, Password, Password+Token) + Authorization (permissions, policies)
Ted Thibodeau: Access Control == Identification (e.g., WebID, Username, OpenID) + Authentication (e.g., WebID+TLS, Password, Password+Token) + Authorization (permissions, policies) ←
13:57:57 <Ashok> s/Wen/Web/
13:59:20 <ericP> q+ to ask whether an LDP Resource can have different triples (or Container have different members) depending on the authentication
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask whether an LDP Resource can have different triples (or Container have different members) depending on the authentication ←
13:59:25 <Ashok> Ashok: The question is -- Is Access Control our problem
Ashok Malhotra: The question is -- Is Access Control our problem ←
13:59:47 <Ashok> Steves: If we don't do it, who will do it?
Steve Speicher: If we don't do it, who will do it? ←
14:00:43 <ericP> if resources can look different, you enable fine-grained access control.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: if resources can look different, you enable fine-grained access control. ←
14:01:15 <Ashok> Ashok: Should we write this as a charter for a WG?
Ashok Malhotra: Should we write this as a charter for a WG? ←
14:01:32 <Ashok> Andre: There is a lot of work to be done here
Andrei Sambra: There is a lot of work to be done here ←
14:01:32 <ericP> (i don't think there's anything that says that can't be different, though HTTP purists may argue that two representations with different triples can't represent the same resource at the same time)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (i don't think there's anything that says that can't be different, though HTTP purists may argue that two representations with different triples can't represent the same resource at the same time) ←
14:04:59 <Ashok> Ashok: #.5 follows from 3.4 ... part of 3.4 actually
Ashok Malhotra: #.5 follows from 3.4 ... part of 3.4 actually ←
14:06:03 <codyburleson> Problem Statement: Any platform for developing web applications would be incomplete without a mechanism for Authentication and Authorization. Without this functionality, the platform could serve only light, utilitarian purposes at best. Without security, it would not even be proper to call the system a "platform".
Cody Burleson: Problem Statement: Any platform for developing web applications would be incomplete without a mechanism for Authentication and Authorization. Without this functionality, the platform could serve only light, utilitarian purposes at best. Without security, it would not even be proper to call the system a "platform". ←
14:06:11 <Arnaud> ack ericP
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ericP ←
14:06:11 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask whether an LDP Resource can have different triples (or Container have different members) depending on the authentication
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask whether an LDP Resource can have different triples (or Container have different members) depending on the authentication ←
14:07:10 <Ashok> Eric: Is there something in LDP that depends on auathentication?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Is there something in LDP that depends on auathentication? ←
14:07:39 <Ashok> Ted: Nothing says two user have to see the same thing
Ted Thibodeau: Nothing says two user have to see the same thing ←
14:09:22 <Ashok> Andre: Let's ask folks who have implemented access control to send usecases
Andrei Sambra: Let's ask folks who have implemented access control to send usecases ←
14:09:36 <Ashok> \Sandro: I like very specific usecases
Sandro Hawke: I like very specific usecases ←
14:10:40 <Ashok> Sandro: 3 paras that would define scope of work in a charter would be good
Sandro Hawke: 3 paras that would define scope of work in a charter would be good ←
14:10:56 <Ashok> s/\sandro/sandro/
s/\sandro/sandro/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
14:11:31 <Ashok> s/\Sandro/Sandro/
14:12:23 <codyburleson> +q
Cody Burleson: +q ←
14:12:51 <codyburleson> -q
Cody Burleson: -q ←
14:15:39 <Ashok> Move last usecase to intro section
Move last usecase to intro section ←
14:16:02 <Ashok> Move 4.2 to section 5
Move 4.2 to section 5 ←
14:17:57 <Ashok> Arnaud: Do we need section 5?
Arnaud Le Hors: Do we need section 5? ←
14:20:15 <Ashok> ... move to other document?
... move to other document? ←
14:21:28 <Ashok> Sandro: Start another wiki page with the 3 paras that could go into a charter
Sandro Hawke: Start another wiki page with the 3 paras that could go into a charter ←
14:21:41 <Ashok> Ted: make that the conclusion of this document
Ted Thibodeau: make that the conclusion of this document ←
14:21:47 <Ashok> Arnaud: Yes
Arnaud Le Hors: Yes ←
14:23:03 <Ashok> Nandana, do you have a comment?
Nandana, do you have a comment? ←
14:23:28 <nmihindu> Ashok, no I've just put my mind completely to the primer :)
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Ashok, no I've just put my mind completely to the primer :) ←
14:24:03 <Ashok> Great!
Great! ←
14:24:54 <BartvanLeeuwen> break now ?
Bart van Leeuwen: break now ? ←
14:25:05 <TallTed> break until 10:35 local
Ted Thibodeau: break until 10:35 local ←
14:26:18 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen
Zakim IRC Bot: -BartvanLeeuwen ←
14:35:45 <sandro> topic; json
(No events recorded for 9 minutes)
Sandro Hawke: topic; json ←
14:35:53 <Ashok> Topic: ISSUE-97 Should we use JSON in addition to Turtle?
14:36:07 <sandro> issue-97
14:36:07 <trackbot> issue-97 -- Json instead of (in addition to?) turtle -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-97 -- Json instead of (in addition to?) turtle -- raised ←
14:36:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/97
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/97 ←
14:36:25 <Ashok> Arnaud: We could put in Best Practices doc.
Arnaud Le Hors: We could put in Best Practices doc. ←
14:36:41 <Ashok> ... don't want to go to another Last Call.
... don't want to go to another Last Call. ←
14:37:34 <Ashok> ... We could put a SHOULD in the spec. We can do this w/o going to another Last Call
... We could put a SHOULD in the spec. We can do this w/o going to another Last Call ←
14:37:39 <codyburleson> +1 "SHOULD" support JSON-LD
Cody Burleson: +1 "SHOULD" support JSON-LD ←
14:37:58 <ericP> imo, that's n'th last call
Eric Prud'hommeaux: imo, that's n'th last call ←
14:38:13 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
14:38:16 <Ashok> PROPOSAL: Add SHOULd support JSON-LD in spec
PROPOSED: Add SHOULd support JSON-LD in spec ←
14:38:57 <Ashok> ... we can also add "who supports JSON-LD" when we go to CR
... we can also add "who supports JSON-LD" when we go to CR ←
14:39:19 <Ashok> Sandro: Are we saying need to convert formats?
Sandro Hawke: Are we saying need to convert formats? ←
14:39:37 <Arnaud> ack betehess
Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess ←
14:39:41 <Ashok> ... need translation on output or store both formats
... need translation on output or store both formats ←
14:41:12 <Ashok> Steves: Or say you match the format of request
Steve Speicher: Or say you match the format of request ←
14:41:52 <betehess> my take: MUST Turtle / SHOULD JSON-LD does not sound like a so great idea. not sure that it solves exactly
Alexandre Bertails: my take: MUST Turtle / SHOULD JSON-LD does not sound like a so great idea. not sure that it solves exactly ←
14:41:58 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
14:42:04 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P4 is me
Bart van Leeuwen: Zakim, ??P4 is me ←
14:42:04 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +BartvanLeeuwen; got it ←
14:42:18 <Ashok> Sandro: We should gather data to go into Director meeting
Sandro Hawke: We should gather data to go into Director meeting ←
14:42:59 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
14:43:05 <Ashok> Sandro: We will put in spec ... if Director obejcts move to BP
Sandro Hawke: We will put in spec ... if Director obejcts move to BP ←
14:43:27 <Ashok> Eric: Can we put into separate doc that put to REC
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Can we put into separate doc that put to REC ←
14:43:38 <Ashok> Sandro: One line ... too much hassle
Sandro Hawke: One line ... too much hassle ←
14:45:16 <Ashok> Eric: There is mapping from JSON-LD to Turtle .... 1 to m mapping ...
Eric Prud'hommeaux: There is mapping from JSON-LD to Turtle .... 1 to m mapping ... ←
14:45:29 <Ashok> ... need context
... need context ←
14:45:32 <Arnaud> ack betehess
Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess ←
14:45:35 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
14:45:51 <Ashok> Sandro: We only support JSON-LD which has context embedded in ti
Sandro Hawke: We only support JSON-LD which has context embedded in it ←
14:46:00 <Ashok> s/ti/it/
14:46:40 <ericP> right, but that's a mapping from json to one namespace unless you want to use the very ugly json-ld with no short names
Eric Prud'hommeaux: right, but that's a mapping from json to one namespace unless you want to use the very ugly json-ld with no short names ←
14:46:46 <Ashok> Alexandre: Discussion about where SHOULD goes
Alexandre Bertails: Discussion about where SHOULD goes ←
14:47:03 <ericP> (Sandro)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (Sandro) ←
14:47:56 <Arnaud> ack Steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack Steves ←
14:47:57 <Ashok> ... also SHOULD vs. MUST
... also SHOULD vs. MUST ←
14:48:10 <sandro> ericP, no, the servers and the clients get to figure out the @context to use
Sandro Hawke: ericP, no, the servers and the clients get to figure out the @context to use ←
14:48:46 <Ashok> Steves: We may have to go to another call if we get significant comments in CR.
Steve Speicher: We may have to go to another call if we get significant comments in CR. ←
14:49:03 <Ashok> ... so we can put in BP and then add to spec later
... so we can put in BP and then add to spec later ←
14:49:28 <Ashok> Sandro: Let's ask director. If he says NO we move to BP.
Sandro Hawke: Let's ask director. If he says NO we move to BP. ←
14:49:39 <ericP> sandro, ahh, so we don't ahve a standard serialization in json
Eric Prud'hommeaux: sandro, ahh, so we don't ahve a standard serialization in json ←
14:49:54 <Ashok> Arnaud: can we add to AT RISK
Arnaud Le Hors: can we add to AT RISK ←
14:50:11 <Ashok> Sandro: Maybe
Sandro Hawke: Maybe ←
14:51:18 <betehess> betehess: if there was no LC issue, I would like to see MUST implement JSON-LD (no Turtle mandatory)
Alexandre Bertails: if there was no LC issue, I would like to see MUST implement JSON-LD (no Turtle mandatory) [ Scribe Assist by Alexandre Bertails ] ←
14:51:26 <roger> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
14:51:44 <deiu> +1
Andrei Sambra: +1 ←
14:52:57 <Ashok> Ashok: You are making a marketing asessment
Ashok Malhotra: You are making a marketing asessment ←
14:53:33 <Ashok> Sandro: Clear that JSON has market ... not clear if JSON-LD has market
Sandro Hawke: Clear that JSON has market ... not clear if JSON-LD has market ←
14:54:45 <Ashok> Arnaud: We are not forcing servers to convert ... it's a SHOULD
Arnaud Le Hors: We are not forcing servers to convert ... it's a SHOULD ←
14:55:09 <Zakim> -nmihindu
Zakim IRC Bot: -nmihindu ←
14:55:50 <Ashok> Ted: MUST for both format is best
Ted Thibodeau: MUST for both format is best ←
14:56:51 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-97 with adding JSON-LD as a SHOULD in the spec, if we can in W3C process without another Last Call; if it'll require another LC, then we advocate for it in BP.
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-97 with adding JSON-LD as a SHOULD in the spec, if we can in W3C process without another Last Call; if it'll require another LC, then we advocate for it in BP. ←
14:56:55 <Ashok> Arnaud: We can put a SHOULD for JSON-LD in spec or put in BP
Arnaud Le Hors: We can put a SHOULD for JSON-LD in spec or put in BP ←
14:57:03 <codyburleson> There is a marketing factor at play here that shouldn't be discounted. Turtle is meaningless to the "average" web developer. JSON-LD provides an option that is meaningful for them. If we want to successful, we need to appeal to the broader audience. So, I agree that is SHOULD be in the spec; not BPs.
Cody Burleson: There is a marketing factor at play here that shouldn't be discounted. Turtle is meaningless to the "average" web developer. JSON-LD provides an option that is meaningful for them. If we want to successful, we need to appeal to the broader audience. So, I agree that is SHOULD be in the spec; not BPs. ←
14:57:19 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
14:57:24 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
14:57:33 <codyburleson> +1
Cody Burleson: +1 ←
14:57:35 <MiguelAraCo> +1
Miguel Aragón: +1 ←
14:57:37 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
14:57:37 <Ashok> +1
+1 ←
14:57:44 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
14:57:44 <deiu> +1 (just to help with adoption, but I would rather see a MUST instead)
Andrei Sambra: +1 (just to help with adoption, but I would rather see a MUST instead) ←
14:57:58 <roger_> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
14:58:03 <JohnArwe> +1
14:58:15 <MiguelAraCo> (I agree with deiu)
Miguel Aragón: (I agree with deiu) ←
14:58:16 <ericP> -.1 # i'm uncomfortable engouth with sneaking this in after LC to whine about it, but not uncomfortable do something else
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -.1 # i'm uncomfortable engouth with sneaking this in after LC to whine about it, but not uncomfortable do something else ←
14:58:21 <betehess> +0
Alexandre Bertails: +0 ←
14:58:23 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close issue-97 with adding JSON-LD as a SHOULD in the spec, if we can in W3C process without another Last Call; if it'll require another LC, then we advocate for it in BP.
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-97 with adding JSON-LD as a SHOULD in the spec, if we can in W3C process without another Last Call; if it'll require another LC, then we advocate for it in BP. ←
14:58:28 <Ashok> Some leaning towards MUST
Some leaning towards MUST ←
14:58:49 <Ashok> Topic: PATCH Format
14:59:40 <Ashok> Arnaud: There are different solutions but have no agreement on requirements
Arnaud Le Hors: There are different solutions but have no agreement on requirements ←
14:59:47 <Ashok> ... and usecases
... and usecases ←
15:00:48 <Ashok> Sandro: Need to be able to patch from any graph to any graph and you need every patch to be tractable
Sandro Hawke: Need to be able to patch from any graph to any graph and you need every patch to be tractable ←
15:01:06 <sandro> (those are my constraints, other people have others)
Sandro Hawke: (those are my constraints, other people have others) ←
15:01:07 <SteveS> Some prior discussion: Use Cases http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-patch/2013Sep/0000.html
Steve Speicher: Some prior discussion: Use Cases http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-patch/2013Sep/0000.html ←
15:01:24 <Arnaud> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1snLP7U97q7wgtsHznnP-RRuAndZNwFytU6q-lrO8U6A/
Arnaud Le Hors: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1snLP7U97q7wgtsHznnP-RRuAndZNwFytU6q-lrO8U6A/ ←
15:01:37 <SteveS> Requirements: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-patch/2013Sep/0016.html
Steve Speicher: Requirements: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-patch/2013Sep/0016.html ←
15:01:48 <Ashok> Alexandre presents slides
Alexandre presents slides ←
15:02:09 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDP_PATCH_Proposals
Sandro Hawke: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDP_PATCH_Proposals ←
15:04:34 <Ashok> SPARQL patch+skolemization, SPARQL patch w/o skolemization, RDF Patch
SPARQL patch+skolemization, SPARQL patch w/o skolemization, RDF Patch ←
15:06:03 <Ashok> q+
q+ ←
15:09:10 <SteveS> JSON Merge Patch http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch-02
Steve Speicher: JSON Merge Patch http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch-02 ←
15:09:21 <Ashok> Ashok: Issue with patching large arrays
Ashok Malhotra: Issue with patching large arrays ←
15:12:55 <Ashok> q-
q- ←
15:13:48 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:15:12 <Ashok> Web Payments using JSON-LD and JSON patch
Web Payments using JSON-LD and JSON patch ←
15:21:51 <Ashok> Arnaud: Are you agruing for RDF Patch?
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Arnaud Le Hors: Are you agruing for RDF Patch? ←
15:21:59 <Ashok> Alexandre: Yes
Alexandre Bertails: Yes ←
15:22:46 <Arnaud> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
15:24:15 <Ashok> Sandro: Easy if you don't have blank nodes. So I said use Skolemization.
Sandro Hawke: Easy if you don't have blank nodes. So I said use Skolemization. ←
15:24:32 <Ashok> ... Eric argues that Skolemization is expensive
... Eric argues that Skolemization is expensive ←
15:25:36 <Ashok> Sandro: You could serialize triples to add and triples to delete in Turtle
Sandro Hawke: You could serialize triples to add and triples to delete in Turtle ←
15:25:42 <SteveS> q+ to ask if there really is a single universal solution for patch
Steve Speicher: q+ to ask if there really is a single universal solution for patch ←
15:27:42 <Arnaud> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
15:27:42 <Zakim> SteveS, you wanted to ask if there really is a single universal solution for patch
Zakim IRC Bot: SteveS, you wanted to ask if there really is a single universal solution for patch ←
15:27:43 <Ashok> Discussion about blank nodes can be identified
Discussion about blank nodes can be identified ←
15:28:52 <Ashok> Arnaud: Either we agree to something that's not perfect or we have no solution at all.
Arnaud Le Hors: Either we agree to something that's not perfect or we have no solution at all. ←
15:29:00 <Ashok> q+
q+ ←
15:29:35 <sandro> Pick your poison: blank-node-identifiers or worst-case-fails
Sandro Hawke: Pick your poison: blank-node-identifiers or worst-case-fails ←
15:30:08 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:30:30 <sandro> q+ to say where LDP *needs* patch (huge containers)
Sandro Hawke: q+ to say where LDP *needs* patch (huge containers) ←
15:30:33 <Ashok> Steves: My usecase is more towards a lightweight RDF Patch. Limited requirements.
Steve Speicher: My usecase is more towards a lightweight RDF Patch. Limited requirements. ←
15:31:00 <Arnaud> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
15:32:33 <Ashok> Ashok: Alexandre, is there a document we can point to?
Ashok Malhotra: Alexandre, is there a document we can point to? ←
15:33:06 <Arnaud> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
15:33:06 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say where LDP *needs* patch (huge containers)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to say where LDP *needs* patch (huge containers) ←
15:33:50 <Ashok> Sandro: What do LDP users really need?
Sandro Hawke: What do LDP users really need? ←
15:34:23 <Ashok> ... add/delete triple from huge graph ... no blank nodes
... add/delete triple from huge graph ... no blank nodes ←
15:34:42 <Ashok> ... cannot use PUT
... cannot use PUT ←
15:37:29 <betehess> Arnaud, define "big" :-)
Alexandre Bertails: Arnaud, define "big" :-) ←
15:39:46 <Ashok> Discussion about Skolemization and how expensive it is
Discussion about Skolemization and how expensive it is ←
15:43:39 <sandro> sandro: One could also do a nice, efficient streaming protocol for maintaining sync
Sandro Hawke: One could also do a nice, efficient streaming protocol for maintaining sync [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:43:50 <Ashok> Arnaud: This seems to be brainstorming. How to we make progress? Can we reach a compromise?
Arnaud Le Hors: This seems to be brainstorming. How to we make progress? Can we reach a compromise? ←
15:45:11 <Ashok> Sandro: Requirement: There is a big graph in a triple store and you want to change a few triples in it
Sandro Hawke: Requirement: There is a big graph in a triple store and you want to change a few triples in it ←
15:45:52 <Ashok> ... must be able to patch any graph
... must be able to patch any graph ←
15:46:19 <betehess> also, remember that there will be a time to see what is supported in implementations... who is planning to implement one of the solutions?
Alexandre Bertails: also, remember that there will be a time to see what is supported in implementations... who is planning to implement one of the solutions? ←
15:48:42 <betehess> question: do we want to be able to patch _any_ graph? or do we think "realistic" (define realistic) graphs are just ok
Alexandre Bertails: question: do we want to be able to patch _any_ graph? or do we think "realistic" (define realistic) graphs are just ok ←
15:48:50 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: a) I'd rather keep it simple and accept a limited solution, b) I want a general solution and am willing to accept the additional cost
STRAWPOLL: a) I'd rather keep it simple and accept a limited solution, b) I want a general solution and am willing to accept the additional cost ←
15:49:18 <betehess> strong a)
Alexandre Bertails: strong a) ←
15:49:29 <Ashok> q+
q+ ←
15:50:35 <Arnaud> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
15:50:46 <ericP> this puts universality and tractibility at odds
Eric Prud'hommeaux: this puts universality and tractibility at odds ←
15:50:58 <TallTed> require universality; require tractability; require both; require neither...
Ted Thibodeau: require universality; require tractability; require both; require neither... ←
15:52:58 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: If we suggest one PATCH format, we make it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps
STRAWPOLL: If we suggest one PATCH format, we make it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps ←
15:54:19 <betehess> sandro, that's not a strawpoll, that's a fact
Alexandre Bertails: sandro, that's not a strawpoll, that's a fact ←
15:54:30 <sandro> :-)
Sandro Hawke: :-) ←
15:54:52 <betehess> my answer: yes :-)
Alexandre Bertails: my answer: yes :-) ←
15:55:06 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: If we suggest one PATCH format, we make it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps. Vote for which branch you'd rather live with;
STRAWPOLL: If we suggest one PATCH format, we make it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps. Vote for which branch you'd rather live with; ←
15:55:38 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: (Assuming we suggest one PATCH format) should it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps.
STRAWPOLL: (Assuming we suggest one PATCH format) should it (a) fail on certain pathological graphs, or (b) require the server to maintain Skolemization maps. ←
15:58:23 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: I'd rather have a solution that (a) doesn't address certain pathological graphs, or (b) requires the server to maintain Skolemization maps
STRAWPOLL: I'd rather have a solution that (a) doesn't address certain pathological graphs, or (b) requires the server to maintain Skolemization maps ←
15:58:47 <betehess> strong (a)
Alexandre Bertails: strong (a) ←
15:58:48 <deiu> a) I don't want to pay a high price every time, regardless of case (while also maintaining skolemized versions), AND because I also want to do the PATCH operation in one request
Andrei Sambra: a) I don't want to pay a high price every time, regardless of case (while also maintaining skolemized versions), AND because I also want to do the PATCH operation in one request ←
15:58:49 <ericP> a
15:58:55 <sandro> -1 go to lunch :-)
Sandro Hawke: -1 go to lunch :-) ←
15:59:17 <SteveS> a +1, b -0 [we do a) first and can do b) later if needed]
Steve Speicher: a +1, b -0 [we do a) first and can do b) later if needed] ←
15:59:21 <ericP> OBJECT
Eric Prud'hommeaux: OBJECT ←
15:59:40 <deiu> a) +1, b) +0
Andrei Sambra: a) +1, b) +0 ←
15:59:43 <sandro> a -0, b +0
Sandro Hawke: a -0, b +0 ←
15:59:47 <ericP> a +1, b -.5
Eric Prud'hommeaux: a +1, b -.5 ←
15:59:48 <MiguelAraCo> a) +1
Miguel Aragón: a) +1 ←
15:59:49 <betehess> (a) +1 (b) -.9
Alexandre Bertails: (a) +1 (b) -.9 ←
16:00:32 <BartvanLeeuwen> a) +1
Bart van Leeuwen: a) +1 ←
16:00:45 <JohnArwe> a +1, b (if needed as fallback) +0.5 ... I would prefer a better understanding of which graphs are considered pathological
John Arwe: a +1, b (if needed as fallback) +0.5 ... I would prefer a better understanding of which graphs are considered pathological ←
16:01:03 <roger> (a) +1, (b) -0.5, but, mostly plan on using domain specific ways to do PATCH like things
Roger Menday: (a) +1, (b) -0.5, but, mostly plan on using domain specific ways to do PATCH like things ←
16:01:37 <Ashok> a
a ←
16:01:41 <TallTed> general solution for all but pathological case; once that's recognized, fall back to Skolemnize
Ted Thibodeau: general solution for all but pathological case; once that's recognized, fall back to Skolemnize ←
16:02:07 <codyburleson> a) +1
Cody Burleson: a) +1 ←
16:02:36 <Ashok> Sandro: Still question on expressiveness
Sandro Hawke: Still question on expressiveness ←
16:03:08 <Ashok> Alexandre: Do we want to handle blank nodes or not
Alexandre Bertails: Do we want to handle blank nodes or not ←
16:04:26 <Ashok> Eric: Question is whether you have variables and xxx
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Question is whether you have variables and xxx ←
16:06:39 <Ashok> Eric: Not hard to produce a spec on SPARQL patch
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Not hard to produce a spec on SPARQL patch ←
16:07:58 <Zakim> -codyburleson
Zakim IRC Bot: -codyburleson ←
16:08:03 <Arnaud> lunch break until 12:45 local
Arnaud Le Hors: lunch break until 12:45 local ←
16:08:06 <BartvanLeeuwen> enjoy lunch
Bart van Leeuwen: enjoy lunch ←
16:08:11 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen
Zakim IRC Bot: -BartvanLeeuwen ←
16:08:12 <Arnaud> zakim, mute ericp
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, mute ericp ←
16:08:13 <Zakim> ericP should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP should now be muted ←
16:08:41 <ericP> i'll see your mutation and raise you a departure
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'll see your mutation and raise you a departure ←
16:08:47 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
16:09:00 <Ashok> BREAK UNTIL 1PM EASTERN
BREAK UNTIL 1PM EASTERN ←
16:09:12 <JohnArwe> i.e. for ~51 mins
John Arwe: i.e. for ~51 mins ←
16:11:49 <BartvanLeeuwen> thats gone be a quick dinner for me ;)
Bart van Leeuwen: thats gone be a quick dinner for me ;) ←
16:50:50 <deiu> scribenick: deiu
(No events recorded for 39 minutes)
(Scribe set to Andrei Sambra)
16:51:10 <deiu> Arnaud: resuming meeting
Arnaud Le Hors: resuming meeting ←
16:51:26 <deiu> ... we can spend 1h on PATCH and maybe another hour on paging
... we can spend 1h on PATCH and maybe another hour on paging ←
16:52:35 <deiu> ... the poll was a useful exercise, so now we know what are the problems we need to solve
... the poll was a useful exercise, so now we know what are the problems we need to solve ←
16:52:45 <deiu> ... the question is: is there a solution?
... the question is: is there a solution? ←
16:53:01 <deiu> ... what can we agree on to make progress?
... what can we agree on to make progress? ←
16:53:23 <deiu> betehess: we have two solutions: ericP's (with BGP) and Pierre-Antoine's solution
Alexandre Bertails: we have two solutions: ericP's (with BGP) and Pierre-Antoine's solution ←
16:53:41 <deiu> sandro: what about RDF patch?
Sandro Hawke: what about RDF patch? ←
16:53:47 <deiu> betehess: it needs skolemization
Alexandre Bertails: it needs skolemization ←
16:54:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:54:12 <deiu> sandro: Tim's is not expressed in concrete terms...
Sandro Hawke: Tim's is not expressed in concrete terms... ←
16:54:41 <deiu> betehess: that's basically ericP's solution, with additional constraints
Alexandre Bertails: that's basically ericP's solution, with additional constraints ←
16:54:55 <deiu> Arnaud: let's have a straw poll on these two options
Arnaud Le Hors: let's have a straw poll on these two options ←
16:55:15 <deiu> sandro: the big difference is that one feels like SPARQL and the other one doesn't
Sandro Hawke: the big difference is that one feels like SPARQL and the other one doesn't ←
16:55:31 <deiu> ... "feeling" like SPARQL is a negative point for LDP adoption
... "feeling" like SPARQL is a negative point for LDP adoption ←
16:56:08 <betehess> solutions are: ericP's SPARQL Update with constrained BGP vs Pierre-Antoine's RDF Patch + property path
Alexandre Bertails: solutions are: ericP's SPARQL Update with constrained BGP vs Pierre-Antoine's RDF Patch + property path ←
16:56:15 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: pursue a) ericP's (with BGP) or b) Pierre-Antoine's solution
STRAWPOLL: pursue a) ericP's (with BGP) or b) Pierre-Antoine's solution ←
16:56:59 <deiu> a) 0 b) +1
a) 0 b) +1 ←
16:57:02 <roger> a) -0.5, b) 0.5
Roger Menday: a) -0.5, b) 0.5 ←
16:57:04 <betehess> a) +0 (not disagreeing with ericP's view) b) +1
Alexandre Bertails: a) +0 (not disagreeing with ericP's view) b) +1 ←
16:57:19 <sandro> a -0.5 b 0.5
Sandro Hawke: a -0.5 b 0.5 ←
16:57:30 <TallTed> a +0.5 b +0.25
Ted Thibodeau: a +0.5 b +0.25 ←
16:58:02 <SteveS> a) +.1 b) +.9
Steve Speicher: a) +.1 b) +.9 ←
16:58:10 <Ashok> 0, 1
Ashok Malhotra: 0, 1 ←
17:00:03 <MiguelAraCo> a) +0.5 b) -.5
Miguel Aragón: a) +0.5 b) -.5 ←
17:00:56 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
17:01:05 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P1 is me
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, ??P1 is me ←
17:01:05 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +nmihindu; got it ←
17:01:12 <nmihindu> Zakim, mute me
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, mute me ←
17:01:12 <Zakim> nmihindu should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: nmihindu should now be muted ←
17:01:53 <Zakim> +[IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM] ←
17:02:20 <betehess> q+ to comment on syntax
Alexandre Bertails: q+ to comment on syntax ←
17:02:35 <Arnaud> ack betehess
Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess ←
17:02:35 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to comment on syntax
Zakim IRC Bot: betehess, you wanted to comment on syntax ←
17:03:07 <Zakim> -[IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IBM] ←
17:03:29 <betehess> Arnaud: we are not married to this syntax, could be JSON
Arnaud Le Hors: we are not married to this syntax, could be JSON [ Scribe Assist by Alexandre Bertails ] ←
17:03:58 <deiu> Arnaud: what do we take from this?
Arnaud Le Hors: what do we take from this? ←
17:04:10 <deiu> ... the majority seems to prefer b)
... the majority seems to prefer b) ←
17:04:49 <deiu> ... what's the status of PA's proposal? is it written somewhere?
... what's the status of PA's proposal? is it written somewhere? ←
17:05:00 <deiu> betehess: no, it isn't, but I plan to do it
Alexandre Bertails: no, it isn't, but I plan to do it ←
17:05:44 <deiu> ... I can also provide a test suite and implementation
... I can also provide a test suite and implementation ←
17:06:10 <deiu> Arnaud: do we agree this is the next step? (start drafting the PATCH spec)
Arnaud Le Hors: do we agree this is the next step? (start drafting the PATCH spec) ←
17:06:31 <deiu> ... then we have consensus
... then we have consensus ←
17:06:53 <deiu> sandro: we can make it a REC track
Sandro Hawke: we can make it a REC track ←
17:07:42 <deiu> Arnaud: there's a big difference, not just in the outcome but in what we do towards it
Arnaud Le Hors: there's a big difference, not just in the outcome but in what we do towards it ←
17:07:42 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
17:07:47 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P12 is me
Bart van Leeuwen: Zakim, ??P12 is me ←
17:07:47 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +BartvanLeeuwen; got it ←
17:08:11 <betehess> LD Patch
Alexandre Bertails: LD Patch ←
17:08:21 <deiu> Arnaud: how do we name it?
Arnaud Le Hors: how do we name it? ←
17:09:11 <deiu> betehess: the full name can be "LD patch format" and the short name can be "LD patch"
Alexandre Bertails: the full name can be "LD patch format" and the short name can be "LD patch" ←
17:09:31 <betehess> LD Patch Format, would live at http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-patch/
Alexandre Bertails: Linked Data Patch Format, would live at http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-patch/ ←
17:09:42 <sandro> Linked Data Patch Format
Sandro Hawke: Linked Data Patch Format ←
17:09:45 <betehess> Linked Data Patch Format, would live at http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-patch/
Alexandre Bertails: Linked Data Patch Format, would live at http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-patch/ ←
17:09:48 <sandro> ldpatch
Sandro Hawke: ldpatch ←
17:09:59 <sandro> ld-patch
Sandro Hawke: ld-patch ←
17:09:59 <deiu> s/LD Patch Format/Linked Data Patch Format/g
17:11:10 <sandro> PROPOSED: We encourage Alexandre to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal
PROPOSED: We encourage Alexandre to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal ←
17:12:10 <SteveS> +1 (encourage yes, require/mandate is even better ;)
Steve Speicher: +1 (encourage yes, require/mandate is even better ;) ←
17:12:42 <deiu> +1
+1 ←
17:12:43 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
17:12:45 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
17:12:45 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
17:12:46 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
17:12:54 <Ashok> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
17:12:57 <roger> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
17:13:15 <codyburleson> +0
Cody Burleson: +0 ←
17:13:19 <betehess> /me feels encouraged
Alexandre Bertails: /me feels encouraged ←
17:13:31 <sandro> RESOLVED: We encourage Alexandre to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal
RESOLVED: We agree to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal ←
17:14:17 <deiu> Arnaud: the resolution is that as a group we will start working on PA's proposal, while betehess will write it down in the document
Arnaud Le Hors: the resolution is that as a group we will start working on PA's proposal, while betehess will write it down in the document ←
17:15:11 <Arnaud> s/We encourage Alexandre/We agree/
17:15:32 <deiu> Arnaud: now betehess can take an action to do it
Arnaud Le Hors: now betehess can take an action to do it ←
17:16:29 <deiu> ... then we're done with PATCH for today!
... then we're done with PATCH for today! ←
17:16:33 <betehess> ACTION: betehess to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal
ACTION: betehess to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal ←
17:16:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-139 - Draft a linked data patch format, along the lines of pierre-antoine's proposal [on Alexandre Bertails - due 2014-04-24].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-139 - Draft a linked data patch format, along the lines of pierre-antoine's proposal [on Alexandre Bertails - due 2014-04-24]. ←
17:16:47 <deiu> ... I think everyone's happy with this
... I think everyone's happy with this ←
17:17:08 <deiu> Topic: Paging specification continues
17:17:19 <deiu> Arnaud: Ashok has a proposal for us
Arnaud Le Hors: Ashok has a proposal for us ←
17:17:34 <deiu> Ashok: it looks we're not agreeing on one solution right now
Ashok Malhotra: it looks we're not agreeing on one solution right now ←
17:17:49 <deiu> ... most solutions have caveats
... most solutions have caveats ←
17:18:18 <deiu> ... so we could add a warning, saying that if you do paging, the collection may change
... so we could add a warning, saying that if you do paging, the collection may change ←
17:18:29 <deiu> Arnaud: I think we have agreed that we can do better
Arnaud Le Hors: I think we have agreed that we can do better ←
17:18:49 <deiu> ... today we're not providing any mechanisms in that regard
... today we're not providing any mechanisms in that regard ←
17:19:21 <deiu> ... yesterday we were left with 2 options: what we have in the spec + notification (which doesn't stop the client from continuing); the second option was to pursue sandro's proposal
... yesterday we were left with 2 options: what we have in the spec + notification (which doesn't stop the client from continuing); the second option was to pursue sandro's proposal ←
17:19:43 <deiu> TallTed: adding this editorially to the existing spec makes it clear what you get
Ted Thibodeau: adding this editorially to the existing spec makes it clear what you get ←
17:19:49 <deiu> sandro: it's clear in the spec that it is lossy
Sandro Hawke: it's clear in the spec that it is lossy ←
17:20:08 <deiu> ... the spec has the word "lossy"
... the spec has the word "lossy" ←
17:21:10 <deiu> Arnaud: so basically sandro wants to veto this
Arnaud Le Hors: so basically sandro wants to veto this ←
17:22:00 <deiu> ... we've agreed that we will do the notification (which is supposed to be mandatory) so the clients know if there was a change during paging
... we've agreed that we will do the notification (which is supposed to be mandatory) so the clients know if there was a change during paging ←
17:22:07 <deiu> sandro: ok, I can live with that
Sandro Hawke: ok, I can live with that ←
17:23:06 <sandro> WARNING: YOU MIGHT NOT SEE INSERTIONS OR DELETTIONS THAT MIGHT HAPPEN DURING PAGING.
Sandro Hawke: WARNING: YOU MIGHT NOT SEE INSERTIONS OR DELETTIONS THAT MIGHT HAPPEN DURING PAGING. ←
17:23:14 <sandro> +1 that's all I've ever asked for.
Sandro Hawke: +1 that's all I've ever asked for. ←
17:23:58 <TallTed> we do also have -- 7.1.1 A LDP client SHOULD NOT present paged resources as coherent or complete, or make assumptions to that effect. [RFC5005].
Ted Thibodeau: we do also have -- 7.1.1 A LDP client SHOULD NOT present paged resources as coherent or complete, or make assumptions to that effect. [RFC5005]. ←
17:24:03 <sandro> (because it implies you WILL see triples that are there the whole time)
Sandro Hawke: (because it implies you WILL see triples that are there the whole time) ←
17:24:12 <deiu> Arnaud: triples that were there when you started and are still there when you end, are definitely seen by the client
Arnaud Le Hors: triples that were there when you started and are still there when you end, are definitely seen by the client ←
17:26:47 <deiu> ... this is a clarification of how lossy paging is
... this is a clarification of how lossy paging is ←
17:27:10 <deiu> sandro: is everyone ok with the wording?
Sandro Hawke: is everyone ok with the wording? ←
17:27:18 <deiu> TallTed: I'm not ok with any wording so far
Ted Thibodeau: I'm not ok with any wording so far ←
17:27:41 <deiu> sandro: are you ok with having test cases that cover the lossy behavior?
Sandro Hawke: are you ok with having test cases that cover the lossy behavior? ←
17:29:20 <SteveS> Anyone have a reference to a source code copyright/license header for W3C test suites?
Steve Speicher: Anyone have a reference to a source code copyright/license header for W3C test suites? ←
17:29:28 <deiu> TallTed: if I'm on the page with items 11-20, and someone deletes 19, what is the first item on the next page?
Ted Thibodeau: if I'm on the page with items 11-20, and someone deletes 19, what is the first item on the next page? ←
17:30:10 <deiu> sandro: I would like to have a test case for those cases
Sandro Hawke: I would like to have a test case for those cases ←
17:30:59 <deiu> Ashok: if the server remembers the first and last triples it displays, then if you do a delete, then it's ok
Ashok Malhotra: if the server remembers the first and last triples it displays, then if you do a delete, then it's ok ←
17:31:17 <deiu> ... so the triples won't move around between pages
... so the triples won't move around between pages ←
17:31:35 <deiu> TallTed: things will appear to shift if you scroll back and forth (or if you reload the same page)
Ted Thibodeau: things will appear to shift if you scroll back and forth (or if you reload the same page) ←
17:32:02 <deiu> ... if you reload the same page you may not see the same data (same for scrolling) -> these are the warnings
... if you reload the same page you may not see the same data (same for scrolling) -> these are the warnings ←
17:32:33 <deiu> Arnaud: people are starting to see the value in sandro's proposal
Arnaud Le Hors: people are starting to see the value in sandro's proposal ←
17:32:43 <deiu> ... we still need to agree on how to word it
... we still need to agree on how to word it ←
17:33:57 <deiu> Arnaud: I think the lossly aspect is especially important in the case where the client doesn't choose when things get paged
Arnaud Le Hors: I think the lossly aspect is especially important in the case where the client doesn't choose when things get paged ←
17:35:14 <deiu> Ashok: when the client starts to page, it caches the collection and then pages over the cache, but it may not have enough space
Ashok Malhotra: when the client starts to page, it caches the collection and then pages over the cache, but it may not have enough space ←
17:35:26 <TallTed> PROPOSAL: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown as
PROPOSED: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown as ←
17:35:26 <TallTed> such. All pages should be tagged NoCache.
Ted Thibodeau: such. All pages should be tagged NoCache. ←
17:37:31 <deiu> [people don't like the NoCache bit]
[people don't like the NoCache bit] ←
17:37:37 <TallTed> PROPOSAL: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown as
PROPOSED: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown as ←
17:37:38 <TallTed> such. Caching flags TBD.
Ted Thibodeau: such. Caching flags TBD. ←
17:38:07 <TallTed> PROPOSAL: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown.
PROPOSED: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown. ←
17:41:01 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
17:41:13 <sandro> +1 as long as we're clear this is really an implementation technique, and the key point is the underlying invariant
Sandro Hawke: +1 as long as we're clear this is really an implementation technique, and the key point is the underlying invariant ←
17:41:16 <betehess> +0
Alexandre Bertails: +0 ←
17:41:26 <Ashok> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
17:41:28 <deiu> +0.9(9999)
+0.9(9999) ←
17:41:31 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
17:41:43 <roger> +0.8
Roger Menday: +0.8 ←
17:41:43 <SteveS> +next
Steve Speicher: +next ←
17:41:50 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
17:41:53 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
17:42:15 <MiguelAraCo> +.5
Miguel Aragón: +.5 ←
17:42:20 <MiguelAraCo> +0.5
Miguel Aragón: +0.5 ←
17:42:28 <sandro> sandro: for eample, you could have pages that are determined by the content
Sandro Hawke: for eample, you could have pages that are determined by the content [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:42:33 <deiu> Ashok: suppose I don't care about updates and I just want to page, and if the contents change then I'm ok with it, then am I allowed to do that?
Ashok Malhotra: suppose I don't care about updates and I just want to page, and if the contents change then I'm ok with it, then am I allowed to do that? ←
17:42:37 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown.
RESOLVED: Spec Sandro's paging proposal (link next based on last record shown on current page; link prev based on first record shown on current page); include warnings that reloading any "page" may not deliver same data as previous load of that "page". Full one-way traversal will show every record that is there at commencement and remains throughout; records added or deleted (even if re-added) during traversal may not be shown. ←
17:43:32 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: I prefer paging to be controlled by a) the client b) the server
STRAWPOLL: I prefer paging to be controlled by a) the client b) the server ←
17:44:13 <sandro> sandro: If the server wants to implement by doing a snapshot, it's welcome to. That meets the invariant.
Sandro Hawke: If the server wants to implement by doing a snapshot, it's welcome to. That meets the invariant. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:44:43 <deiu> sandro: the client sends a "preferred page size header" to initiate paging
Sandro Hawke: the client sends a "preferred page size header" to initiate paging ←
17:49:38 <sandro> sandro: it's not aboiut the client being resource limited, so much as the client wanting to focus on a particular bit.
Sandro Hawke: it's not aboiut the client being resource limited, so much as the client wanting to focus on a particular bit. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:49:55 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: I prefer paging to be initiated by a) the client b) the server
STRAWPOLL: I prefer paging to be initiated by a) the client b) the server ←
17:50:43 <Ashok> a)
Ashok Malhotra: a) ←
17:50:56 <TallTed> c - either
Ted Thibodeau: c - either ←
17:51:08 <deiu> a)
a) ←
17:52:44 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
17:53:06 <sandro> a
Sandro Hawke: a ←
17:53:09 <betehess> c - potentially both
Alexandre Bertails: c - potentially both ←
17:54:04 <sandro> How about: Prefer: Page-Size-KB=100
Sandro Hawke: How about: Prefer: Page-Size-KB=100 ←
17:54:51 <sandro> How about: Prefer: Page-Size-KB=unlim
Sandro Hawke: How about: Prefer: Page-Size-KB=unlim ←
17:56:15 <deiu> =*
=* ←
17:57:35 <sandro> sandro: Is it the case that the client MUST understand paging?
Sandro Hawke: Is it the case that the client MUST understand paging? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:58:50 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: The server MAY do paging even if the client hasn't asked for it
STRAWPOLL: The server MAY do paging even if the client hasn't asked for it ←
17:59:07 <sandro> (today in the spec, means the client MUST understand paging.)
Sandro Hawke: (today in the spec, means the client MUST understand paging.) ←
17:59:29 <sandro> (as in the spec today)
Sandro Hawke: (as in the spec today) ←
17:59:43 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
17:59:46 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
17:59:46 <Ashok> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
17:59:47 <sandro> +0
Sandro Hawke: +0 ←
17:59:48 <deiu> -0.9
-0.9 ←
17:59:53 <MiguelAraCo> +1
Miguel Aragón: +1 ←
18:00:02 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
18:00:12 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
18:00:28 <codyburleson> +0
Cody Burleson: +0 ←
18:01:23 <deiu> Arnaud: so we have consensus
Arnaud Le Hors: so we have consensus ←
18:01:37 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: We'll allow for clients to ask for paging, ask for no paging, and ask for page size
STRAWPOLL: We'll allow for clients to ask for paging, ask for no paging, and ask for page size ←
18:01:52 <deiu> ... we can talk about page sizes or no page, or what are the preferences the clients can convey to servers
... we can talk about page sizes or no page, or what are the preferences the clients can convey to servers ←
18:02:53 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
18:04:42 <SteveS> +0 (could defer until a LDP.next)
Steve Speicher: +0 (could defer until a LDP.next) ←
18:05:00 <deiu> +0 (same as SteveS)
+0 (same as SteveS) ←
18:05:28 <betehess> +0
Alexandre Bertails: +0 ←
18:05:44 <nmihindu> +0.5 (would nice to have if possible)
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +0.5 (would nice to have if possible) ←
18:05:53 <Ashok> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
18:06:17 <roger> +0.5
Roger Menday: +0.5 ←
18:08:55 <deiu> deiu: paging can be replaced by sorting+filtering+limit
Andrei Sambra: paging can be replaced by sorting+filtering+limit+offset ←
18:10:05 <TallTed> s/+limit/+limit+offset/
18:13:30 <deiu> Arnaud: filtering is pretty complicated
Arnaud Le Hors: filtering is pretty complicated ←
18:13:40 <deiu> betehess: what about the scope of bnodes between pages
Alexandre Bertails: what about the scope of bnodes between pages ←
18:15:03 <deiu> Arnaud: the client should have a say regarding the paging preference
Arnaud Le Hors: the client should have a say regarding the paging preference ←
18:16:25 <TallTed> HTTP code 413 Payload Too Large -- as a result of the client asking for max-result=10KB + whatever request
Ted Thibodeau: HTTP code 413 Payload Too Large -- as a result of the client asking for max-result=10KB + whatever request ←
18:17:23 <deiu> roger: you could SPARQL to page over the results
Roger Menday: you could SPARQL to page over the results ←
18:19:00 <deiu> ... we can use subsets of SPARQL for paging and/or patch
... we can use subsets of SPARQL for paging and/or patch ←
18:21:00 <deiu> sandro: if a clients says "I want the top 10 items", it also know more about the shape of the graphs than the server
Sandro Hawke: if a clients says "I want the top 10 items", it also knows more about the shape of the graphs than the server ←
18:21:12 <deiu> s/know/knows
18:21:35 <deiu> ... there could be a "group by subject" clause to define the items that will be returned
... there could be a "group by subject" clause to define the items that will be returned ←
18:23:33 <deiu> Arnaud: I still think the best way is to allow the client to say "I want paging" or "I don't want paging"
Arnaud Le Hors: I still think the best way is to allow the client to say "I want paging" or "I don't want paging" ←
18:28:32 <deiu> [sandro propses a way to do paging over periods of time - i.e. sending data over 100 ms ]
[sandro propses a way to do paging over periods of time - i.e. sending data over 100 ms ] ←
18:29:53 <deiu> SteveS: we couldn't come up with something that made sense in OSLC
Steve Speicher: we couldn't come up with something that made sense in OSLC ←
18:30:12 <deiu> ... small/medium/large are very relative
... small/medium/large are very relative ←
18:31:09 <deiu> sandro: then what about time? (if size in kb is not good)
Sandro Hawke: then what about time? (if size in kb is not good) ←
18:31:49 <deiu> betehess: if you're the client, then you do paging based on a rough idea of the ration between the triple and the size
Alexandre Bertails: if you're the client, then you do paging based on a rough idea of the ration between the triple and the size ←
18:31:55 <deiu> ... so I guess the triple is fine
... so I guess the triple is fine ←
18:38:51 <deiu> Arnaud: people are now saying that maybe we can give a page size in triples
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Arnaud Le Hors: people are now saying that maybe we can give a page size in triples ←
18:41:31 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all
PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all ←
18:42:06 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all. Size in number of triples, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item.
PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all. Size in number of triples, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item. ←
18:42:23 <deiu> +1
+1 ←
18:42:35 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
18:42:38 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
18:42:41 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
18:42:44 <Ashok> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
18:42:47 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
18:42:50 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
18:42:51 <sandro> +0.5 (only because number-of-triples isn't the right metric)
Sandro Hawke: +0.5 (only because number-of-triples isn't the right metric) ←
18:43:28 <Ashok> Roger: +1
Roger Menday: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Ashok Malhotra ] ←
18:43:54 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all. Size in number of KILOBYTES, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item.
PROPOSED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all. Size in number of KILOBYTES, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item. ←
18:44:05 <sandro> +1 :-)
Sandro Hawke: +1 :-) ←
18:44:17 <betehess> -0.1
Alexandre Bertails: -0.1 ←
18:44:20 <deiu> 0
0 ←
18:44:23 <SteveS> 0
Steve Speicher: 0 ←
18:44:25 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
18:44:27 <Ashok> -1
Ashok Malhotra: -1 ←
18:44:30 <roger> 0
Roger Menday: 0 ←
18:44:33 <BartvanLeeuwen> 0
18:44:43 <codyburleson> 0
Cody Burleson: 0 ←
18:45:12 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all. Size in number of triples, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item.
RESOLVED: We'll provide a way for the client to express a desired page size hint to the server, including whether or not to do paging at all. Size in number of triples, but we know the server might be doing associated-chunks of triples, like around a blank node, or the same container item. ←
18:45:29 <deiu> Arnaud: we can discuss the details later
Arnaud Le Hors: we can discuss the details later ←
18:46:55 <deiu> ... are there more issues re. paging?
... are there more issues re. paging? ←
18:47:10 <deiu> ... we have tackled the most important ones
... we have tackled the most important ones ←
18:47:19 <sandro> how about: Prefer: Page-Size=100
Sandro Hawke: how about: Prefer: Page-Size=100 ←
18:47:19 <sandro> and Prefer: Page-Size=* (for no paging) or Page-Size=No-Paging
Sandro Hawke: and Prefer: Page-Size=* (for no paging) or Page-Size=No-Paging ←
18:49:13 <deiu> Ashok: do you want to add membership triples to the top of the page?
Ashok Malhotra: do you want to add membership triples to the top of the page? ←
18:49:33 <deiu> sandro: I think there are one per item (one membership and one containment)
Sandro Hawke: I think there are one per item (one membership and one containment) ←
18:49:51 <sandro> PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples MUST be on the same page as each other.
PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples MUST be on the same page as each other. ←
18:54:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples for a given resource MUST be on the same page as each other.
PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples for a given resource MUST be on the same page as each other. ←
18:54:51 <sandro> arnaud: No one is going to have the triples on the same page.
Arnaud Le Hors: No one is going to have the triples on the same page. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:55:09 <sandro> PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples for a given (contained/member) resource MUST be on the same page as each other.
PROPOSED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triples and containment triples for a given (contained/member) resource MUST be on the same page as each other. ←
18:55:25 <sandro> arnaud: No one is going to have the membership and containment triples on the same page.
Arnaud Le Hors: No one is going to have the membership and containment triples on the same page. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:56:24 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
18:56:39 <deiu> 0
0 ←
18:56:48 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
18:56:53 <SteveS> -0.1 (let impls do what makes sense for triples they have)
Steve Speicher: -0.1 (let impls do what makes sense for triples they have) ←
18:57:34 <betehess> +0 (not sure how useful it is)
Alexandre Bertails: +0 (not sure how useful it is) ←
18:58:16 <sandro> RESOLVED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triple and containment triple for a given (contained/member) resource MUST be on the same page as each other.
RESOLVED: If a Container has membership triples and containment triples included, the membership triple and containment triple for a given (contained/member) resource MUST be on the same page as each other. ←
18:58:44 <roger> +0.5
Roger Menday: +0.5 ←
18:58:51 <Ashok> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
18:59:14 <deiu> Arnaud: I think we have achieved a lot!
Arnaud Le Hors: I think we have achieved a lot! ←
19:00:03 <deiu> ... people are welcome to stick around for interop testing
... people are welcome to stick around for interop testing ←
19:00:25 <BartvanLeeuwen> :)
Bart van Leeuwen: :) ←
19:00:51 <deiu> Arnaud: let's adjourn the meeting
Arnaud Le Hors: let's adjourn the meeting ←
19:01:04 <deiu> ... on Monday I will host an informative call
... on Monday I will host an informative call ←
19:01:40 <deiu> ... next formal meeting is on the 28th, when I expect all drafts to be ready
... next formal meeting is on the 28th, when I expect all drafts to be ready ←
19:01:41 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen
Zakim IRC Bot: -BartvanLeeuwen ←
19:02:12 <Arnaud> adjourned
Arnaud Le Hors: adjourned ←
19:02:18 <Zakim> -nmihindu
Zakim IRC Bot: -nmihindu ←
19:02:18 <sandro> woo hoo!
Sandro Hawke: woo hoo! ←
19:02:22 <deiu> +1
+1 ←
19:02:28 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
19:06:49 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
Arnaud Le Hors: trackbot, end meeting ←
19:06:49 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
19:06:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been codyburleson, BartvanLeeuwen, nmihindu, Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu, ericP, [IPcaller], [IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been codyburleson, BartvanLeeuwen, nmihindu, Arnaud, Ashok, betehess, JohnArwe, roger, sandro, SteveS, TallTed, deiu, ericP, [IPcaller], [IBM] ←
19:06:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
19:06:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-minutes.html trackbot ←
19:06:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
19:06:58 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-actions.rdf : ←
19:06:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: betehess to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal [1]
ACTION: betehess to draft a Linked Data Patch Format, along the lines of Pierre-Antoine's proposal [1] ←
19:06:58 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-irc#T17-16-33
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/17-ldp-irc#T17-16-33 ←
Formatted by CommonScribe