14:00:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/20-ldp-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/20-ldp-irc ←
14:00:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
14:00:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP ←
14:00:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started ←
14:00:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
14:00:30 <trackbot> Date: 20 May 2013
14:00:43 <Zakim> +[IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM] ←
14:00:58 <SteveS> zakim, [IBM] is me
Steve Speicher: zakim, [IBM] is me ←
14:01:02 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveS; got it ←
14:01:14 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone? ←
14:01:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveBattle, JohnArwe, Arnaud, SteveS
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see SteveBattle, JohnArwe, Arnaud, SteveS ←
14:01:22 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ashok_Malhotra ←
14:01:40 <stevebattle> Arnaud, I'm happy to scribe today.
Steve Battle: Arnaud, I'm happy to scribe today. ←
14:02:19 <stevebattle> who said I'm happy?
Steve Battle: who said I'm happy? ←
14:03:01 <stevebattle> scribe: stevebattle
(Scribe set to Steve Battle)
14:03:29 <Zakim> + +44.208.5.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.208.5.aaaa ←
14:03:51 <JohnArwe> zakim, aaaa is Roger
John Arwe: zakim, aaaa is Roger ←
14:03:51 <Zakim> +Roger; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Roger; got it ←
14:04:11 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone? ←
14:04:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveBattle, JohnArwe, Arnaud, SteveS, Ashok_Malhotra, Roger
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see SteveBattle, JohnArwe, Arnaud, SteveS, Ashok_Malhotra, Roger ←
14:05:42 <Zakim> +bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: +bblfish ←
14:05:48 <stevebattle> chair: Arnaud
<stevebattle> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.05.20
<stevebattle> topic: Admin
14:06:07 <bblfish> hi
Henry Story: hi ←
14:06:41 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
14:07:17 <stevebattle> roger: next week is a public holiday in the UK
Roger Menday: next week is a public holiday in the UK ←
14:07:31 <Arnaud> nmihindu are you going to join the call?
Arnaud Le Hors: nmihindu are you going to join the call? ←
14:07:39 <stevebattle> SteveS: next week is also a public holiday in the US
Steve Speicher: next week is also a public holiday in the US ←
14:07:54 <Arnaud> what about you bart?
Arnaud Le Hors: what about you bart? ←
14:08:12 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
14:08:22 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P8 is me
Bart van Leeuwen: Zakim, ??P8 is me ←
14:08:22 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +BartvanLeeuwen; got it ←
14:09:06 <Zakim> +??P9
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9 ←
<stevebattle> subtopic: Minutes from May 13
14:09:38 <stevebattle> Arnaud: The minutes for last week are not available so approval will be deferred until next week.
Arnaud Le Hors: The minutes for last week are not available so approval will be deferred until next week. ←
14:09:49 <bblfish> we did progress though...
Henry Story: we did progress though... ←
14:09:51 <nmihindu> Arnaud, yes I will join in a minute. I have to connect to another network for VoIP
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Arnaud, yes I will join in a minute. I have to connect to another network for VoIP ←
14:10:10 <Zakim> +??P10
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10 ←
<stevebattle> subtopic: Next meeting
14:10:36 <stevebattle> Next week is also ESWC.
Next week is also ESWC. ←
14:10:41 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P10 is me
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, ??P10 is me ←
14:10:41 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +nmihindu; got it ←
14:11:15 <SteveS> I won't be able to attend May 27th
Steve Speicher: I won't be able to attend May 27th ←
14:11:20 <Zakim> +??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11 ←
14:11:47 <stevebattle> Arnaud: We will skip the meeting next Monday, next meeting June 3rd.
Arnaud Le Hors: We will skip the meeting next Monday, next meeting June 3rd. ←
14:12:18 <stevebattle> resolution: Next meeting will be on June 3rd.
RESOLVED: Next meeting will be on June 3rd. ←
14:12:39 <JohnArwe> s/resultion:/resolution:/
John Arwe: s/resultion:/resolution:/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
14:12:41 <krp> zakim, ??P11 is me
Kevin Page: zakim, ??P11 is me ←
14:12:41 <Zakim> +krp; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +krp; got it ←
14:13:49 <stevebattle> ericP: Are we meeting at TPAC?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Are we meeting at TPAC? ←
14:13:49 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F3
Henry Story: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F3 ←
14:14:34 <stevebattle> Arnaud: Has seen no message regarding ericP's hallucination.
Arnaud Le Hors: Has seen no message regarding ericP's hallucination. ←
<stevebattle> topic: Tracking of Action and Issues
14:15:31 <stevebattle> subtopic: Actions
14:16:26 <JohnArwe> pending review: 45, 59, 60, 65
John Arwe: pending review: 45, 59, 60, 65 ←
14:16:53 <stevebattle> Arnaud: Proposes we close these actions.
Arnaud Le Hors: Proposes we close these actions. ←
14:17:02 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
14:17:08 <stevebattle> +1
+1 ←
14:17:11 <JohnArwe> +1
14:17:12 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
14:17:19 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
14:17:36 <bblfish> Arnaud: undocumented action for everyone to object to the minutes if closing these issues is problematic
Arnaud Le Hors: undocumented action for everyone to object to the minutes if closing these issues is problematic [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ] ←
14:17:47 <stevebattle> resolution: Close Actions 45, 59, 60, 65
RESOLVED: Close Actions 45, 59, 60, 65 ←
14:18:11 <JohnArwe> close action-45
14:18:11 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-45 [EDITOR] Adopting http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013Mar/0089.html with the property name ldp:membershipPredicateInverse.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-45 [EDITOR] Adopting http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013Mar/0089.html with the property name ldp:membershipPredicateInverse. ←
14:18:19 <JohnArwe> close action-59
14:18:19 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-59 [EDITOR] Deployment guide, best practice is to make predicates used in LDPRs be dereferencable, per resolution of issue-9.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-59 [EDITOR] Deployment guide, best practice is to make predicates used in LDPRs be dereferencable, per resolution of ISSUE-9. ←
14:18:26 <JohnArwe> close action-60
14:18:26 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-60 [EDITOR] LDPCs may contain non-LDPRs + updating membership triples and inlined members, per resolution of issue-13.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-60 [EDITOR] LDPCs may contain non-LDPRs + updating membership triples and inlined members, per resolution of ISSUE-13. ←
14:18:28 <stevebattle> Arnaud: There are outstanding actions to review UC&R
Arnaud Le Hors: There are outstanding actions to review UC&R ←
14:18:33 <JohnArwe> close action-65
14:18:33 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-65 [EDITOR] Remove section 4.1.4 canonical uri from the spec, per resolution of issue-49.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-65 [EDITOR] Remove section 4.1.4 canonical uri from the spec, per resolution of ISSUE-49. ←
14:18:42 <nmihindu> Miguel is working on the UCR review and he will send it soon
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Miguel is working on the UCR review and he will send it soon ←
14:18:55 <SteveS> +1 to closing 52
Steve Speicher: +1 to closing 52 ←
14:19:02 <stevebattle> Arnaud: resolution close action 52
Arnaud Le Hors: resolution close ACTION-52 ←
14:19:07 <bblfish> Action-52
14:19:07 <trackbot> ACTION-52 -- Roger Menday to create a wish list wiki page with issue-38 -- due 2013-03-21 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-52 -- Roger Menday to create a wish list wiki page with ISSUE-38 -- due 2013-03-21 -- OPEN ←
14:19:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/52
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/52 ←
14:19:33 <stevebattle> resolution: Close Action-52
14:19:51 <JohnArwe> close action-52
14:19:52 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-52 Create a wish list wiki page with issue-38.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-52 Create a wish list wiki page with ISSUE-38. ←
14:20:45 <stevebattle> resolution: Close Action-50
14:20:45 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-50 And rgarcia to come up with a revised proposal for the test suite framework.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-50 And rgarcia to come up with a revised proposal for the test suite framework. ←
14:20:45 <bblfish> Action-50
14:20:45 <trackbot> ACTION-50 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to and rgarcia to come up with a revised proposal for the test suite framework -- due 2013-03-21 -- CLOSED
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-50 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to and rgarcia to come up with a revised proposal for the test suite framework -- due 2013-03-21 -- CLOSED ←
14:20:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/50
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/50 ←
14:20:56 <bblfish> Action-48?
14:20:56 <trackbot> ACTION-48 -- Ashok Malhotra to take a first crack at the requirements of Access Control note -- due 2013-03-21 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-48 -- Ashok Malhotra to take a first crack at the requirements of Access Control note -- due 2013-03-21 -- OPEN ←
14:20:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/48
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/48 ←
14:21:28 <nmihindu> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/AccessControl
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/AccessControl ←
14:22:20 <Zakim> +Kalpa
Zakim IRC Bot: +Kalpa ←
14:22:47 <stevebattle> resolution: Close Action-48
14:22:47 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-48 Take a first crack at the requirements of Access Control note.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-48 Take a first crack at the requirements of Access Control note. ←
14:23:08 <stevebattle> subtopic: Raised Issues
<stevebattle> subsubtopic: Issue-62
14:23:51 <bblfish> Issue-62?
14:23:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-62 -- Creating containers associated with LDPRs -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-62 -- Creating containers associated with LDPRs -- raised ←
14:23:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/62
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/62 ←
14:24:20 <stevebattle> rogerp: I revised the text of the issue for clarity.
Roger Menday: I revised the text of the issue for clarity. ←
14:25:16 <stevebattle> What does issue-62 add?
14:25:32 <stevebattle> s/rogerp/roger/
14:26:11 <stevebattle> roger: The difference is that you don't necessarily have a POSTable endpoint with a container.
Roger Menday: The difference is that you don't necessarily have a POSTable endpoint with a container. ←
14:26:41 <SteveS> Perhaps we can cover with ACTION-55, which was to cover ISSUE-36
Steve Speicher: Perhaps we can cover with ACTION-55, which was to cover ISSUE-36 ←
14:26:41 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+
Bart van Leeuwen: q+ ←
14:27:04 <stevebattle> resolution: Open Issue-62
14:27:22 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
14:27:26 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
14:27:36 <Arnaud> ack bart
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bart ←
14:27:52 <BartvanLeeuwen> :-/
Bart van Leeuwen: :-/ ←
14:28:04 <bblfish> ?
Henry Story: ? ←
14:28:10 <stevebattle> bartvanleeuwen: ???
Bart van Leeuwen: ??? ←
14:29:14 <BartvanLeeuwen> does this allow us to 'bootstrap' a ldp server ??
Bart van Leeuwen: does this allow us to 'bootstrap' a ldp server ?? ←
14:29:34 <BartvanLeeuwen> so no containers at all, and we can create them
Bart van Leeuwen: so no containers at all, and we can create them ←
14:29:59 <JohnArwe> if by bootstrap you mean go from an LDPR to an LDPC, sounds like yes.
John Arwe: if by bootstrap you mean go from an LDPR to an LDPC, sounds like yes. ←
14:30:00 <BartvanLeeuwen> exactly
Bart van Leeuwen: exactly ←
14:30:08 <stevebattle> Arnaud: We can always bootstrap containers using PUT
Arnaud Le Hors: We can always bootstrap containers using PUT ←
14:30:14 <Arnaud> reopen issue-62
Arnaud Le Hors: reopen ISSUE-62 ←
14:30:14 <trackbot> Re-opened ISSUE-62 Creating containers associated with LDPRs.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Re-opened ISSUE-62 Creating containers associated with LDPRs. ←
14:30:23 <bblfish> but how would you know where to PUT, you'd have to PUT in a container or something.
Henry Story: but how would you know where to PUT, you'd have to PUT in a container or something. ←
14:30:39 <stevebattle> subsubtopic: Issue-70
14:30:39 <trackbot> ISSUE-70 -- simple LDPCs -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-70 -- simple LDPCs -- raised ←
14:30:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/70
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/70 ←
14:32:04 <stevebattle> bblfish: Some parts of the spec may not be absolutely necessary. We should review them, simplifying the spec.
Henry Story: Some parts of the spec may not be absolutely necessary. We should review them, simplifying the spec. ←
14:32:44 <SteveS> Didn't we cover this beginning of the year when we created the UC&R doc?
Steve Speicher: Didn't we cover this beginning of the year when we created the UC&R doc? ←
14:34:04 <stevebattle> Arnaud: This may be too disruptive at this stage; we need to come up with specific proposals.
Arnaud Le Hors: This may be too disruptive at this stage; we need to come up with specific proposals. ←
14:34:17 <Ashok> maybe this goes in the primer?
Ashok Malhotra: maybe this goes in the primer? ←
14:34:37 <JohnArwe> henry what do you mean by "property links"?
John Arwe: henry what do you mean by "property links"? ←
14:34:50 <roger> membershipPredicate and membershipSubject
Roger Menday: membershipPredicate and membershipSubject ←
14:34:51 <roger> I think
Roger Menday: I think ←
14:36:20 <stevebattle> Arnaud: The existing features are justified by many use-cases.
Arnaud Le Hors: The existing features are justified by many use-cases. ←
14:37:25 <stevebattle> Arnaud: There are, of course, alternative ways to achive the same results.
Arnaud Le Hors: There are, of course, alternative ways to achieve the same results. ←
14:37:27 <roger> +q
Roger Menday: +q ←
14:37:50 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen
Zakim IRC Bot: -BartvanLeeuwen ←
14:37:54 <stevebattle> bblfish: But are there ways to achieve the same results in a *simpler* way?
Henry Story: But are there ways to achieve the same results in a *simpler* way? ←
14:38:45 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
14:38:46 <stevebattle> s/achive/achieve/
14:38:52 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P8 is me
Bart van Leeuwen: Zakim, ??P8 is me ←
14:38:52 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +BartvanLeeuwen; got it ←
14:39:15 <Arnaud> ack roger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack roger ←
14:39:16 <stevebattle> Arnaud: Opening such a vague issue may present a road-block to last call
Arnaud Le Hors: Opening such a vague issue may present a road-block to last call ←
14:40:21 <stevebattle> roger: Do you want to have a solution that uses only rdfs:member to associate containers with members?
Roger Menday: Do you want to have a solution that uses only rdfs:member to associate containers with members? ←
14:40:26 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
14:40:27 <ericP> q+
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ ←
14:40:38 <Arnaud> ack ericp
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ericp ←
14:40:54 <Zakim> -??P9
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P9 ←
14:41:23 <stevebattle> ericp: You could rally the troops to come up with a counter-proposal, add this to the list, then use this as the basis of discussion.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: You could rally the troops to come up with a counter-proposal, add this to the list, then use this as the basis of discussion. ←
14:42:34 <stevebattle> Arnaud: This is good but we cannot have open-ended issues.
Arnaud Le Hors: This is good but we cannot have open-ended issues. ←
14:43:20 <stevebattle> resolution: Close Issue-70, Henry to come up with a concrete proposal.
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-70, Henry to come up with a concrete proposal. ←
14:43:20 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-70 simple LDPCs.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ISSUE-70 simple LDPCs. ←
14:44:12 <stevebattle> topic: Open Issues
14:44:19 <bblfish> Issue-65?
<stevebattle> subtopic: Issue-65
14:44:19 <trackbot> ISSUE-65 -- FirstPage and Hypermedia as the Engine of Application State (HATEOAS) Compliance -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-65 -- FirstPage and Hypermedia as the Engine of Application State (HATEOAS) Compliance -- open ←
14:44:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/65
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/65 ←
14:44:59 <stevebattle> Arnaud: The issue was first raised by James Leigh.
Arnaud Le Hors: The issue was first raised by James Leigh. ←
14:45:31 <bblfish> Issue-70 is closed for reasons of not precise enough wording.
Henry Story: ISSUE-70 is closed for reasons of not precise enough wording. ←
14:45:49 <stevebattle> arnaud: We lose the ability for the client to initiate paging.
Arnaud Le Hors: We lose the ability for the client to initiate paging. ←
14:46:18 <SteveS> ACTION-62 hasn't been done which edits in resource pagination from resolution of ISSUE-33
Steve Speicher: ACTION-62 hasn't been done which edits in resource pagination from resolution of ISSUE-33 ←
14:46:26 <stevebattle> arnaud: A link header can be used to supply the first page URL
Arnaud Le Hors: A link header can be used to supply the first page URL ←
14:47:09 <SteveS> Proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013May/0064.html
Steve Speicher: Proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013May/0064.html ←
14:47:16 <JohnArwe> +1 to removing firstPage, do think we need link header
John Arwe: +1 to removing firstPage, do think we need link header ←
14:47:36 <bblfish> The headers seem like a good idea. I have not implemented this part of the spec yet.
Henry Story: The headers seem like a good idea. I have not implemented this part of the spec yet. ←
14:47:38 <stevebattle> +1 to removal, link header should be optional.
+1 to removal, link header should be optional. ←
14:47:40 <JohnArwe> ...our mobile clients will want to keep response sizes manageable
John Arwe: ...our mobile clients will want to keep response sizes manageable ←
14:48:03 <SteveS> +1 to Arnaud's all 3 proposals, including having link header optional
Steve Speicher: +1 to Arnaud's all 3 proposals, including having link header optional ←
14:48:29 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
14:48:30 <Arnaud> PROPOSAL: Close ISSUE-65: FirstPage HATEOAS Compliance per Arnaud's proposal, with link header optional
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-65: FirstPage HATEOAS Compliance per Arnaud's proposal, with link header optional ←
14:48:39 <stevebattle> +1
+1 ←
14:48:41 <Ashok> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
14:48:53 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
14:48:53 <roger> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
14:48:54 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
14:48:57 <Kalpa> +1
Kalpa Gunaratna: +1 ←
14:49:00 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
14:49:15 <Arnaud> Resolved: Close ISSUE-65: FirstPage HATEOAS Compliance per Arnaud's proposal, with link header optional
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-65: FirstPage HATEOAS Compliance per Arnaud's proposal, with link header optional ←
14:49:30 <stevebattle> subtopic: Issue-62
14:49:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-62 -- Creating containers associated with LDPRs -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-62 -- Creating containers associated with LDPRs -- open ←
14:49:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/62
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/62 ←
14:51:15 <stevebattle> Arnaud: action-55 adds clarification. Does this address issue-62 fully?
Arnaud Le Hors: ACTION-55 adds clarification. Does this address ISSUE-62 fully? ←
14:52:15 <stevebattle> Arnaud: We'll postpone until we have the text of issue-55.
Arnaud Le Hors: We'll postpone until we have the text of ISSUE-55. ←
<stevebattle> subtopic: Issue-58
14:52:40 <bblfish> Issue-58?
14:52:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-58 -- Property for asserting that complete description of members is included in LDPC representation -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-58 -- Property for asserting that complete description of members is included in LDPC representation -- open ←
14:52:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/58
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/58 ←
14:52:51 <JohnArwe> close issue-65
14:52:51 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-65 FirstPage and Hypermedia as the Engine of Application State (HATEOAS) Compliance.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ISSUE-65 FirstPage and Hypermedia as the Engine of Application State (HATEOAS) Compliance. ←
14:54:15 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
14:54:26 <SteveS> Here is the email summary of options: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013May/0085.html
Steve Speicher: Here is the email summary of options: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013May/0085.html ←
14:54:31 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
14:55:10 <bblfish> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013May/0150.html
Henry Story: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013May/0150.html ←
14:55:12 <stevebattle> bblfish: This is a very bad idea. This makes it possible to create inconsistent graphs and is unnecessary.
Henry Story: This is a very bad idea. This makes it possible to create inconsistent graphs and is unnecessary. ←
14:56:05 <JohnArwe> q+
14:56:13 <Ashok> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
14:57:11 <stevebattle> arnaud: I don't see how inlining introduces the problem. The inconsistency arises out of the data.
Arnaud Le Hors: I don't see how inlining introduces the problem. The inconsistency arises out of the data. ←
14:57:22 <Arnaud> ack john
Arnaud Le Hors: ack john ←
14:57:55 <stevebattle> johnarwe: The arguments expose different assumptions that people hold.
John Arwe: The arguments expose different assumptions that people hold. ←
14:59:09 <Arnaud> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
15:01:25 <Arnaud> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013May/0085.html
Arnaud Le Hors: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013May/0085.html ←
15:02:02 <stevebattle> arnaud: The option on the table is to close with option E
Arnaud Le Hors: The option on the table is to close with option E ←
15:02:11 <nmihindu> Option E: A combination of both Options A & B, in other words people wanted both.
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Option E: A combination of both Options A & B, in other words people wanted both. ←
15:02:24 <bblfish> So since then I move to -1 on all
Henry Story: So since then I move to -1 on all ←
15:02:25 <JohnArwe> ...with proviso that the subject is the Page not the Resource
John Arwe: ...with proviso that the subject is the Page not the Resource ←
15:02:34 <stevebattle> 0
0 ←
15:03:16 <JohnArwe> need to drop
15:03:17 <stevebattle> ashok: We should explore Henry's idea just a little further.
Ashok Malhotra: We should explore Henry's idea just a little further. ←
15:03:30 <bblfish> My proposal is to have a content relation to a literal
Henry Story: My proposal is to have a content relation to a literal ←
15:03:51 <JohnArwe> Henry proposed a concrete alternative.
John Arwe: Henry proposed a concrete alternative. ←
15:03:56 <Zakim> -JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: -JohnArwe ←
15:04:04 <stevebattle> ashok: I asked Henry for a simple example that was added last night which the working group should provide feedback on.
Ashok Malhotra: I asked Henry for a simple example that was added last night which the working group should provide feedback on. ←
15:04:06 <SteveS> +0.5 on option E
Steve Speicher: +0.5 on option E ←
15:04:54 <bblfish> Issue-32?
15:04:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- How can clients discover that a resource is an LDPR or LDPC, and what features are supported? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-32 -- How can clients discover that a resource is an LDPR or LDPC, and what features are supported? -- open ←
15:04:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/32
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/32 ←
15:05:13 <stevebattle> arnaud: I don't want to give this issue too much agenda time.
Arnaud Le Hors: I don't want to give this issue too much agenda time. ←
<stevebattle> ... there are more important issues, like issue-32, that we need to focus on.
... there are more important issues, like ISSUE-32, that we need to focus on. ←
15:05:29 <SteveS> regrets from me for May 27 and June 3
Steve Speicher: regrets from me for May 27 and June 3 ←
15:05:33 <stevebattle> :)
:) ←
<stevebattle> MEETING ADJOURNED
MEETING ADJOURNED ←
15:05:35 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ashok_Malhotra ←
15:05:36 <BartvanLeeuwen> thx bye
Bart van Leeuwen: thx bye ←
15:05:36 <Zakim> -SteveS
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveS ←
15:05:37 <bblfish> bye
Henry Story: bye ←
15:05:39 <Zakim> -Roger
Zakim IRC Bot: -Roger ←
15:05:40 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:05:41 <Zakim> -krp
Zakim IRC Bot: -krp ←
15:05:42 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen
Zakim IRC Bot: -BartvanLeeuwen ←
15:05:42 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
15:05:43 <Zakim> -nmihindu
Zakim IRC Bot: -nmihindu ←
15:05:44 <Zakim> -Kalpa
Zakim IRC Bot: -Kalpa ←
15:05:47 <Zakim> -SteveBattle
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveBattle ←
15:06:35 <bblfish> Arnaud, please look up my last mail and see if you agree that there is a problem with the logical inconsistency problem being so easy to build http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013May/0150.html
Henry Story: Arnaud, please look up my last mail and see if you agree that there is a problem with the logical inconsistency problem being so easy to build http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013May/0150.html ←
15:07:19 <Arnaud> Henry, I read that email
Arnaud Le Hors: Henry, I read that email ←
15:07:37 <Arnaud> I don't see how the inlining really changes anything
Arnaud Le Hors: I don't see how the inlining really changes anything ←
15:07:50 <Arnaud> the inconsistency is already there
Arnaud Le Hors: the inconsistency is already there ←
15:07:58 <Arnaud> it only makes it more evident
Arnaud Le Hors: it only makes it more evident ←
15:08:02 <bblfish> but in a different graph
Henry Story: but in a different graph ←
15:08:11 <Arnaud> so?
Arnaud Le Hors: so? ←
15:08:24 <Arnaud> at the application level it would make no difference to me
Arnaud Le Hors: at the application level it would make no difference to me ←
15:08:24 <bblfish> what if the inlined content has relations about the LDPC , say chaing the state of it
Henry Story: what if the inlined content has relations about the LDPC , say chaing the state of it ←
15:09:14 <Arnaud> I agree that it can be used in a bad way
Arnaud Le Hors: I agree that it can be used in a bad way ←
15:09:41 <Arnaud> in our case the server wouldn't allow you to do that
Arnaud Le Hors: in our case the server wouldn't allow you to do that ←
15:09:49 <Arnaud> so the problem never occurs
Arnaud Le Hors: so the problem never occurs ←
15:10:10 <Arnaud> that's why I said in my email that I can see how a vanilla implementation may not be able to do that easily
Arnaud Le Hors: that's why I said in my email that I can see how a vanilla implementation may not be able to do that easily ←
15:10:30 <bblfish> another argument is that inlining means that a client that POSTs needs to have not just the overview of the page, but the overview of all of the content of the LDPC because I suppose page orderings can change, etc... Otherwise when POSTing you can easily make things inconsistent
Henry Story: another argument is that inlining means that a client that POSTs needs to have not just the overview of the page, but the overview of all of the content of the LDPC because I suppose page orderings can change, etc... Otherwise when POSTing you can easily make things inconsistent ←
15:10:47 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, bblfish, in SW_LDP()10:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, bblfish, in SW_LDP()10:00AM ←
15:10:48 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended ←
15:10:48 <Zakim> Attendees were SteveBattle, JohnArwe, Arnaud, SteveS, Ashok_Malhotra, +44.208.5.aaaa, Roger, bblfish, ericP, BartvanLeeuwen, nmihindu, krp, Kalpa
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were SteveBattle, JohnArwe, Arnaud, SteveS, Ashok_Malhotra, +44.208.5.aaaa, Roger, bblfish, ericP, BartvanLeeuwen, nmihindu, krp, Kalpa ←
15:11:44 <Arnaud> again you're assuming the client can post anything it wants
Arnaud Le Hors: again you're assuming the client can post anything it wants ←
15:12:11 <Arnaud> in an application specific case the server wouldn't support that
Arnaud Le Hors: in an application specific case the server wouldn't support that ←
15:12:14 <bblfish> we don't have any vocabulary to restrict the client yet to what it should post
Henry Story: we don't have any vocabulary to restrict the client yet to what it should post ←
15:12:19 <Arnaud> it would allow a client to create specific data
Arnaud Le Hors: it would allow a client to create specific data ←
15:12:22 <Arnaud> in a controlled way
Arnaud Le Hors: in a controlled way ←
15:12:30 <Arnaud> well, we do :)
Arnaud Le Hors: well, we do :) ←
15:12:47 <Arnaud> btw, did you see the announcement for the RDF validation workshop?
Arnaud Le Hors: btw, did you see the announcement for the RDF validation workshop? ←
15:12:52 <Arnaud> this is what it is about
Arnaud Le Hors: this is what it is about ←
15:13:03 <Arnaud> as far as we are concerned
Arnaud Le Hors: as far as we are concerned ←
15:13:08 <bblfish> I did not see that yet, no
Henry Story: I did not see that yet, no ←
15:13:12 <Arnaud> hold on
Arnaud Le Hors: hold on ←
15:13:39 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2012/12/rdf-val/Overview.php
Arnaud Le Hors: https://www.w3.org/2012/12/rdf-val/Overview.php ←
15:13:42 <bblfish> But even with RDF validation local validation is not enough: in the simple bug example: I managed to get an inconsistency just because of different points of views being expressed about what the cause of the bug is
Henry Story: But even with RDF validation local validation is not enough: in the simple bug example: I managed to get an inconsistency just because of different points of views being expressed about what the cause of the bug is ←
15:13:46 <Arnaud> btw, IBM didn't initiate this
Arnaud Le Hors: btw, IBM didn't initiate this ←
15:13:59 <Arnaud> eric was working on setting it up when I learned about it
Arnaud Le Hors: eric was working on setting it up when I learned about it ←
15:14:10 <Arnaud> so there are other people wanting this
Arnaud Le Hors: so there are other people wanting this ←
15:14:12 <bblfish> that's ok, I don't have anything against IBM. :-)
Henry Story: that's ok, I don't have anything against IBM. :-) ←
15:14:27 <bblfish> being supporters of Linux is cool :-)
Henry Story: being supporters of Linux is cool :-) ←
15:14:32 <Arnaud> :)
Arnaud Le Hors: :) ←
15:15:05 <Arnaud> we have products using this functionality and we haven't had problems with that
Arnaud Le Hors: we have products using this functionality and we haven't had problems with that ←
15:15:21 <bblfish> Anyway, my point is just that I think this issue arises because we're just trying to put too much into the LDPC. We could just shift this problem to an LDPR,
Henry Story: Anyway, my point is just that I think this issue arises because we're just trying to put too much into the LDPC. We could just shift this problem to an LDPR, ←
15:16:01 <Arnaud> I don't see that
Arnaud Le Hors: I don't see that ←
15:16:16 <bblfish> yes, Arnaud, but you control the whole stack of your product, and you employ all the engineers. If you control all aspects there are things you won't see that people in the wild will see with an open world.
Henry Story: yes, Arnaud, but you control the whole stack of your product, and you employ all the engineers. If you control all aspects there are things you won't see that people in the wild will see with an open world. ←
15:17:10 <bblfish> Well I am not sure about that claim yet. But my feeling is that if one had simple LDPCs then we'd move the rest of the work to dealing with LDPRs
Henry Story: Well I am not sure about that claim yet. But my feeling is that if one had simple LDPCs then we'd move the rest of the work to dealing with LDPRs ←
15:17:11 <Arnaud> well, we integrate with products from other vendors and customers so that's not exactly true
Arnaud Le Hors: well, we integrate with products from other vendors and customers so that's not exactly true ←
15:17:31 <bblfish> well I don't want to speak much about your product as I don't know it
Henry Story: well I don't want to speak much about your product as I don't know it ←
15:18:13 <Arnaud> http://open-services.net/organizations/ gives you the list of organizations involved
Arnaud Le Hors: http://open-services.net/organizations/ gives you the list of organizations involved ←
15:18:19 <Arnaud> it's hardly just IBM
Arnaud Le Hors: it's hardly just IBM ←
15:18:59 <Arnaud> but I agree that we do exercise some control in what the server accepts and without it things can go bad
Arnaud Le Hors: but I agree that we do exercise some control in what the server accepts and without it things can go bad ←
15:19:15 <Arnaud> that comes with the flexibility of linked data
Arnaud Le Hors: that comes with the flexibility of linked data ←
15:19:22 <Arnaud> the fact that anyone can assert anything
Arnaud Le Hors: the fact that anyone can assert anything ←
15:19:37 <bblfish> that is why it is important to distinguish creation of documents using POST and content of documents ie. <#uri> and mergers of graphs
Henry Story: that is why it is important to distinguish creation of documents using POST and content of documents ie. <#uri> and mergers of graphs ←
15:20:07 <bblfish> an LDPC can have inconsistent members - that's ok if those members are documents.
Henry Story: an LDPC can have inconsistent members - that's ok if those members are documents. ←
15:20:25 <Arnaud> but if you got an inconsistent graph from inlining couldn't you go back and check what each resource contains and figure out where the inconsistency comes from?
Arnaud Le Hors: but if you got an inconsistent graph from inlining couldn't you go back and check what each resource contains and figure out where the inconsistency comes from? ←
15:20:37 <bblfish> I mean the log:semantics of the LDPC members can be inconsistent - without problem as long as rdf:member <member> the <member> is a document
Henry Story: I mean the log:semantics of the LDPC members can be inconsistent - without problem as long as rdf:member <member> the <member> is a document ←
15:20:47 <Arnaud> at least you would only have to fetch every resource individually when things go bad rather than all the time
Arnaud Le Hors: at least you would only have to fetch every resource individually when things go bad rather than all the time ←
15:21:22 <bblfish> I am just wondering why you want to merge all that info in the LDPC?
Henry Story: I am just wondering why you want to merge all that info in the LDPC? ←
15:21:45 <Arnaud> for performance + convenience
Arnaud Le Hors: for performance + convenience ←
15:21:57 <Arnaud> you do one get and you're all set
Arnaud Le Hors: you do one get and you're all set ←
15:21:58 <bblfish> ok so why not use quoted content
Henry Story: ok so why not use quoted content ←
15:22:12 <bblfish> with quoted content you get it all, and it is safe
Henry Story: with quoted content you get it all, and it is safe ←
15:22:20 <bblfish> the client can decide if he wishes to unquote
Henry Story: the client can decide if he wishes to unquote ←
15:22:37 <bblfish> ie to believe the content
Henry Story: ie to believe the content ←
15:23:55 <Arnaud> that seems reasonable but it doesn't work with turtle, does it?
Arnaud Le Hors: that seems reasonable but it doesn't work with turtle, does it? ←
15:24:23 <bblfish> not well no. But then you could as you did above point to future specs like N3 or Trig
Henry Story: not well no. But then you could as you did above point to future specs like N3 or Trig ←
15:24:31 <bblfish> N3 it works very well
Henry Story: N3 it works very well ←
15:24:39 <Arnaud> yeah, I read you said that
Arnaud Le Hors: yeah, I read you said that ←
15:24:56 <bblfish> <member> log:semantics { <#joe> a foaf:Person }
Henry Story: <member> log:semantics { <#joe> a foaf:Person } ←
15:25:02 <Arnaud> right now we are requiring support for turtle
Arnaud Le Hors: right now we are requiring support for turtle ←
15:25:17 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/doc/Reach
Henry Story: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/doc/Reach ←
15:25:35 <bblfish> yes so there one would need to have a way to put Turtle in quotes.
Henry Story: yes so there one would need to have a way to put Turtle in quotes. ←
15:25:46 <bblfish> "..."^^lang:Turtle .
Henry Story: "..."^^lang:Turtle . ←
15:25:59 <bblfish> it's just a question of getting some URLs for those languages
Henry Story: it's just a question of getting some URLs for those languages ←
15:26:06 <Arnaud> "just" :)
Arnaud Le Hors: "just" :) ←
15:26:25 <bblfish> well that's not a very big task. People could see the point of that relatively easily
Henry Story: well that's not a very big task. People could see the point of that relatively easily ←
15:26:35 <Arnaud> that's not the problem
Arnaud Le Hors: that's not the problem ←
15:26:43 <Arnaud> the problem is that turtle is in last call
Arnaud Le Hors: the problem is that turtle is in last call ←
15:26:43 <bblfish> but I think it's a good spur for N3. TimBl would love to have that standardised I am sure.
Henry Story: but I think it's a good spur for N3. TimBl would love to have that standardised I am sure. ←
15:26:53 <Arnaud> you know what it takes to add something like that
Arnaud Le Hors: you know what it takes to add something like that ←
15:27:18 <Arnaud> maybe he would but again it's not even in the works right now
Arnaud Le Hors: maybe he would but again it's not even in the works right now ←
15:27:24 <bblfish> I can ask on the Turlte list if they have a standard way of doing that
Henry Story: I can ask on the Turlte list if they have a standard way of doing that ←
15:28:15 <bblfish> but you end up with a lot less issues than if you merge the content
Henry Story: but you end up with a lot less issues than if you merge the content ←
15:29:09 <bblfish> If you merge content you could end up in the wild with a bunch of jokers messing up your collections.
Henry Story: If you merge content you could end up in the wild with a bunch of jokers messing up your collections. ←
15:29:43 <bblfish> and also be able to argue their way out of the problem by saying they were not conscious of the consistency requirements
Henry Story: and also be able to argue their way out of the problem by saying they were not conscious of the consistency requirements ←
15:30:51 <Arnaud> I understand, that again assumes people are allowed to do all sorts of stuff
Arnaud Le Hors: I understand, that again assumes people are allowed to do all sorts of stuff ←
15:31:07 <Arnaud> this is definitely not the case in an enterprise application
Arnaud Le Hors: this is definitely not the case in an enterprise application ←
15:31:33 <Arnaud> that's a big difference with the web at large
Arnaud Le Hors: that's a big difference with the web at large ←
15:33:29 <bblfish> Even enterprise applications will have the problem. If I can prove that you need local context to exchange information which you have not made explicit, then you are not doing semantic web.
Henry Story: Even enterprise applications will have the problem. If I can prove that you need local context to exchange information which you have not made explicit, then you are not doing semantic web. ←
15:33:50 <bblfish> semantic web is about building a system that does not require local contextual knowledge
Henry Story: semantic web is about building a system that does not require local contextual knowledge ←
15:34:10 <bblfish> IT is about building worldwide platform.
Henry Story: IT is about building worldwide platform. ←
15:34:12 <betehess> log:semantics translates to plain RDF using reification
Alexandre Bertails: log:semantics translates to plain RDF using reification ←
15:35:22 <bblfish> what I'd need is <member> log:semantics "<http://bblfish.net/#me> a <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person"^^lang:Turtle .
Henry Story: what I'd need is <member> log:semantics "<http://bblfish.net/#me> a <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person"^^lang:Turtle . ←
15:36:58 <betehess> pretty much the same, isn't it?
Alexandre Bertails: pretty much the same, isn't it? ←
15:37:36 <bblfish> same as what?
Henry Story: same as what? ←
15:37:44 <bblfish> as a bunch of reified statements?
Henry Story: as a bunch of reified statements? ←
15:38:00 <betehess> I guess
Alexandre Bertails: I guess ←
15:38:30 <bblfish> should be the same but a lot more readable than reification.
Henry Story: should be the same but a lot more readable than reification. ←
15:39:20 <bblfish> ok I sent out an initial mail to see what the situation is.
Henry Story: ok I sent out an initial mail to see what the situation is. ←
15:40:09 <bblfish> Mhh pitty we did not log the above conversation :-)
Henry Story: Mhh pitty we did not log the above conversation :-) ←
15:40:55 <Arnaud> bblfish: for what it's worth I never said we are doing semantic web :)
Henry Story: for what it's worth I never said we are doing semantic web :) [ Scribe Assist by Arnaud Le Hors ] ←
15:41:10 <Arnaud> I spend quite a bit of time actually saying the opposite!
Arnaud Le Hors: I spend quite a bit of time actually saying the opposite! ←
15:41:33 <betehess> semantic web :-)
Alexandre Bertails: semantic web :-) ←
15:43:49 <bblfish> yes but the ldp group is about that, and the w3c is about it.
Henry Story: yes but the ldp group is about that, and the w3c is about it. ←
15:45:11 <bblfish> The problem is that it is difficult for large companies to think about the semantic web ( I worked at sun) because they tend to not notice implicit assumptions they are using. One really needs to make these things explicit for it to count as linked data.
Henry Story: The problem is that it is difficult for large companies to think about the semantic web ( I worked at sun) because they tend to not notice implicit assumptions they are using. One really needs to make these things explicit for it to count as linked data. ←
15:45:55 <Arnaud> I don't agree with that assertion "the ldp group is about that, and the w3c is about it." actually
Arnaud Le Hors: I don't agree with that assertion "the ldp group is about that, and the w3c is about it." actually ←
15:46:09 <Arnaud> and the discussions I have had with the w3c staff confirms that
Arnaud Le Hors: and the discussions I have had with the w3c staff confirms that ←
15:46:41 <bblfish> ( I think its not just large companies btw that have trouble with the explicitness required )
Henry Story: ( I think its not just large companies btw that have trouble with the explicitness required ) ←
15:47:01 <bblfish> well I am pretty sure that is a key criterion for ldp to be ldp
Henry Story: well I am pretty sure that is a key criterion for ldp to be ldp ←
15:47:14 <betehess> well, I still don't know what semantic web means...
Alexandre Bertails: well, I still don't know what semantic web means... ←
15:47:35 <bblfish> still it's not well expressed above so we may be interpreting that statement differently
Henry Story: still it's not well expressed above so we may be interpreting that statement differently ←
15:47:48 <betehess> but I think I understand Linked Data, as a concept and as a well-defined technology: LDP
Alexandre Bertails: but I think I understand Linked Data, as a concept and as a well-defined technology: LDP ←
15:48:19 <bblfish> I need to be able to read your data and not know that you are IBM to interpret it and interact with it - I may need to know you are IBM to TRUST it but not to interpret it
Henry Story: I need to be able to read your data and not know that you are IBM to interpret it and interact with it - I may need to know you are IBM to TRUST it but not to interpret it ←
15:49:35 <bblfish> betehess: we are looking for criterion for LDP here. We can't just say whatever LDP comes up with is good. LDP has to be part of the larger semantic web stack
Alexandre Bertails: we are looking for criterion for LDP here. We can't just say whatever LDP comes up with is good. LDP has to be part of the larger semantic web stack [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ] ←
15:50:02 <bblfish> and the criterion has to be as defined above: ie "I need to be able to read your data and not know that you are IBM to interpret it and interact with it - I may need to know you are IBM to TRUST it but not to interpret it"
Henry Story: and the criterion has to be as defined above: ie "I need to be able to read your data and not know that you are IBM to interpret it and interact with it - I may need to know you are IBM to TRUST it but not to interpret it" ←
15:52:20 <bblfish> I may not be able to interpret fully all the relations because they are not accessible to me, but that's something else.
Henry Story: I may not be able to interpret fully all the relations because they are not accessible to me, but that's something else. ←
15:55:29 <bblfish> Some of this is just application of Web Arch. The data has to be accessible from any resource: you should not assume someone is coming from a certain position in the web.
Henry Story: Some of this is just application of Web Arch. The data has to be accessible from any resource: you should not assume someone is coming from a certain position in the web. ←
15:56:02 <bblfish> that's essentially why RDF exists: as a maxiumum decontextualisation of information.
Henry Story: that's essentially why RDF exists: as a maxiumum decontextualisation of information. ←
15:56:54 <bblfish> ( Context still exists: you have a certain position in the web: I can publish something and IBM the same thing, but they will have different positions in the web. People may trust IBM and not me even if we say the same thing )
Henry Story: ( Context still exists: you have a certain position in the web: I can publish something and IBM the same thing, but they will have different positions in the web. People may trust IBM and not me even if we say the same thing ) ←
15:57:25 <bblfish> That is why WebID works.
Henry Story: That is why WebID works. ←
Formatted by CommonScribe