None.
13:40:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/21-egov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/21-egov-irc ←
<Zakim> Guest: Tomasz Janowski
<sandro> Guest: Paola (PDM) Di Maio
13:40:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'start meeting', sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'start meeting', sandro ←
13:40:58 <sandro> trackbot, start meeting
Sandro Hawke: trackbot, start meeting ←
13:41:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
13:41:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be EGOV
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be EGOV ←
13:41:03 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot ←
13:41:04 <trackbot> Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
13:41:04 <trackbot> Date: 21 February 2012
13:41:31 <sandro> zakim, room for 50 for 120 minutes?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, room for 50 for 120 minutes? ←
13:41:33 <Zakim> ok, sandro; conference Team_(egov)13:41Z scheduled with code 3468 (EGOV) for 120 minutes until 1541Z
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; conference Team_(egov)13:41Z scheduled with code 3468 (EGOV) for 120 minutes until 1541Z ←
13:42:25 <Zakim> Team_(egov)13:41Z has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(egov)13:41Z has now started ←
13:42:32 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
13:57:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
(No events recorded for 15 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
13:59:29 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +3539149aaaa ←
14:00:11 <Zakim> + +1.202.684.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.202.684.aabb ←
14:00:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a] ←
14:00:48 <citizencontact> zakim, aabb is Daniel Bennett
Daniel Bennett: zakim, aabb is Daniel Bennett ←
14:00:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aabb is Daniel Bennett', citizencontact
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'aabb is Daniel Bennett', citizencontact ←
14:01:25 <Zakim> + +1.703.281.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.703.281.aacc ←
14:04:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aa] ←
14:04:17 <olyerickson> I am the IP caller
John Erickson: I am the IP caller ←
14:04:33 <olyerickson> Zakim, I am IPcaller.aa.
John Erickson: Zakim, I am IPcaller.aa. ←
14:04:33 <Zakim> ok, olyerickson, I now associate you with [IPcaller.aa]
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, olyerickson, I now associate you with [IPcaller.aa] ←
14:04:45 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
14:04:49 <josema> zakim, ??P13 is me
José Alonso: zakim, ??P13 is me ←
14:04:50 <Zakim> +josema; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +josema; got it ←
14:04:51 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
14:05:00 <Jeanne> Jeanne Holm is here
Jeanne Holm: Jeanne Holm is here ←
14:05:01 <josema> zakim, mute me
José Alonso: zakim, mute me ←
14:05:01 <Zakim> josema should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: josema should now be muted ←
14:05:09 <Zakim> + +44.786.783.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.786.783.aadd ←
14:05:10 <olyerickson> zakim, mute me.
John Erickson: zakim, mute me. ←
14:05:10 <Zakim> [IPcaller.aa] should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: [IPcaller.aa] should now be muted ←
14:05:12 <Jeanne> Catherine Goodier
Jeanne Holm: Catherine Goodier ←
14:05:14 <citizencontact> Zakim, I am +1.202.684.aabb
Daniel Bennett: Zakim, I am +1.202.684.aabb ←
14:05:14 <Zakim> +citizencontact; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +citizencontact; got it ←
14:05:24 <olyerickson> zakim, who is on the call
John Erickson: zakim, who is on the call ←
14:05:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', olyerickson
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the call', olyerickson ←
14:05:33 <olyerickson> zakim, who is on the call?
John Erickson: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:05:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, [IPcaller], +3539149aaaa, citizencontact, [IPcaller.a], +1.703.281.aacc, [IPcaller.aa] (muted), josema (muted), ??P16, +44.786.783.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, [IPcaller], +3539149aaaa, citizencontact, [IPcaller.a], +1.703.281.aacc, [IPcaller.aa] (muted), josema (muted), ??P16, +44.786.783.aadd ←
14:05:51 <olyerickson> Zakim, I am IPcaller.aa.
John Erickson: Zakim, I am IPcaller.aa. ←
14:05:51 <Zakim> ok, olyerickson, I now associate you with [IPcaller.aa]
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, olyerickson, I now associate you with [IPcaller.aa] ←
14:05:54 <DeirdreLee> Zakim, I am +3539149aaaa
Deirdre Lee: Zakim, I am +3539149aaaa ←
14:05:54 <Zakim> +DeirdreLee; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +DeirdreLee; got it ←
14:06:04 <olyerickson> zakim, who is on the phone?
John Erickson: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:06:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, [IPcaller], DeirdreLee, citizencontact, [IPcaller.a], +1.703.281.aacc, [IPcaller.aa] (muted), josema (muted), ??P16, +44.786.783.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, [IPcaller], DeirdreLee, citizencontact, [IPcaller.a], +1.703.281.aacc, [IPcaller.aa] (muted), josema (muted), ??P16, +44.786.783.aadd ←
14:06:49 <olyerickson> zakim, I am [IPcaller.aa].
John Erickson: zakim, I am [IPcaller.aa]. ←
14:06:49 <Zakim> ok, olyerickson, I now associate you with [IPcaller.aa]
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, olyerickson, I now associate you with [IPcaller.aa] ←
14:07:55 <olyerickson> zakim, who is on the call?
John Erickson: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:07:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, [IPcaller], DeirdreLee, citizencontact, [IPcaller.a], +1.703.281.aacc, [IPcaller.aa] (muted), josema (muted), ??P16, +44.786.783.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, [IPcaller], DeirdreLee, citizencontact, [IPcaller.a], +1.703.281.aacc, [IPcaller.aa] (muted), josema (muted), ??P16, +44.786.783.aadd ←
14:08:12 <citizencontact> fyi - interesting radio show http://www.onthemedia.org/2012/jan/27/internet-tool-not-human-right/
Daniel Bennett: fyi - interesting radio show http://www.onthemedia.org/2012/jan/27/internet-tool-not-human-right/ ←
14:08:18 <olyerickson> +1 to hearing
John Erickson: +1 to hearing ←
14:08:35 <citizencontact> and my response: http://www.mythtakenpolitics.org/2012/01/access-to-the-internet-is-a-human-right.html
Daniel Bennett: and my response: http://www.mythtakenpolitics.org/2012/01/access-to-the-internet-is-a-human-right.html ←
14:09:10 <Jeanne> Tomasz Janowski is the professor for eGov Policy at UN University in Macao, China
Jeanne Holm: Tomasz Janowski is the professor for eGov Policy at UN University in Macao, China ←
14:09:25 <Jeanne> He is focused on the idea of policy and electronic government
Jeanne Holm: He is focused on the idea of policy and electronic government ←
14:09:31 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: eGov IG - Details 21 Feb: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2012Feb/0012.html
Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: eGov IG - Details 21 Feb: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2012Feb/0012.html ←
14:09:53 <sandro> * SLIDES * http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/slides/2012-02-21.pdf
Sandro Hawke: * SLIDES * http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/slides/2012-02-21.pdf ←
14:09:56 <josema> Tomasz bio -> http://egov.iist.unu.edu/cegov/PEOPLE/STAFF/Janowski-Tomasz
José Alonso: Tomasz bio -> http://egov.iist.unu.edu/cegov/PEOPLE/STAFF/Janowski-Tomasz ←
14:09:59 <olyerickson> +1 to having the slides (thanks)
John Erickson: +1 to having the slides (thanks) ←
14:10:31 <Jeanne> Slide 2: Evolution of public sector information follows 2 decades of innovation and research
Jeanne Holm: Slide 2: Evolution of public sector information follows 2 decades of innovation and research ←
14:10:41 <Jeanne> Responding to a variety of goals that have been rapidly evoling
Jeanne Holm: Responding to a variety of goals that have been rapidly evoling ←
14:10:50 <Jeanne> evolving
Jeanne Holm: evolving ←
14:11:05 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is here? ←
14:11:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, [IPcaller], DeirdreLee, citizencontact, [IPcaller.a], +1.703.281.aacc, [IPcaller.aa] (muted), josema (muted), ??P16, +44.786.783.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Sandro, [IPcaller], DeirdreLee, citizencontact, [IPcaller.a], +1.703.281.aacc, [IPcaller.aa] (muted), josema (muted), ??P16, +44.786.783.aadd ←
14:11:05 <Jeanne> How to deliver electronic services and do it better
Jeanne Holm: How to deliver electronic services and do it better ←
14:11:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see kay, MacTed, Nig, annew, tlr, olyerickson, Brand, Jeanne, DeirdreLee, citizencontact, PhilA2, Zakim, RRSAgent, Tomasz, josema, bhyland, trackbot, wnbot, sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see kay, MacTed, Nig, annew, tlr, olyerickson, Brand, Jeanne, DeirdreLee, citizencontact, PhilA2, Zakim, RRSAgent, Tomasz, josema, bhyland, trackbot, wnbot, sandro ←
14:11:22 <Jeanne> The use of IT in how citizens are making decisions and processes
Jeanne Holm: The use of IT in how citizens are making decisions and processes ←
14:11:39 <Jeanne> Using IT to inform health and other public sector issues
Jeanne Holm: Using IT to inform health and other public sector issues ←
14:11:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aaa]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aaa] ←
14:11:59 <Jeanne> While we are addressing the issues of internal government services, we have been focused on content and technology
Jeanne Holm: While we are addressing the issues of internal government services, we have been focused on content and technology ←
14:12:04 <edsu> zakim, IPcaller.aaa is edsu
Ed Summers: zakim, IPcaller.aaa is edsu ←
14:12:04 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +edsu; got it ←
14:12:16 <Jeanne> Now it is expanding to include government agencies
Jeanne Holm: Now it is expanding to include government agencies ←
14:13:01 <josema> yes
José Alonso: yes ←
14:13:12 <Jeanne> The future impact is uncertain as we have reached an turning point
Jeanne Holm: The future impact is uncertain as we have reached an turning point ←
14:13:14 <Zakim> +bhyland
Zakim IRC Bot: +bhyland ←
14:13:47 <josema> I'm reminded of something I mentioned a couple years ago: the future of e-Gov is to remove the "e" from there ;)
José Alonso: I'm reminded of something I mentioned a couple years ago: the future of e-Gov is to remove the "e" from there ;) ←
14:13:53 <Jeanne> Slide 3 Challenges in connecting citizens, services, and agencies via the internet
Jeanne Holm: Slide 3 Challenges in connecting citizens, services, and agencies via the internet ←
14:14:20 <Jeanne> We do need to win public sector support for government IT
Jeanne Holm: We do need to win public sector support for government IT ←
14:15:22 <sandro> ( "Orientation on maintenance, not outcomes" That's a nice way to put it. )
Sandro Hawke: ( "Orientation on maintenance, not outcomes" That's a nice way to put it. ) ←
14:15:38 <Jeanne> Slide 4 Organizational transformation or electronic government includes collaboration between agencies, services across agency boundaries. The cultural issues include limitations of organizational resistance, digitial divide, lack of public consultation, and scaling to higher usage.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 4 Organizational transformation or electronic government includes collaboration between agencies, services across agency boundaries. The cultural issues include limitations of organizational resistance, digitial divide, lack of public consultation, and scaling to higher usage. ←
14:17:09 <Jeanne> Slide 5 Social media is being used more to engage citizens in decision making, but the challenges remain for lack of trust in government, digitial divide, and what is the impact on the local environment. You cannot offer generic IT solutions without understanding local policy objectives and what the impact will be locally.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 5 Social media is being used more to engage citizens in decision making, but the challenges remain for lack of trust in government, digitial divide, and what is the impact on the local environment. You cannot offer generic IT solutions without understanding local policy objectives and what the impact will be locally. ←
14:17:56 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
14:18:06 <annew> Zakim, ??p15 is me
Anne Washington: Zakim, ??p15 is me ←
14:18:06 <Zakim> +annew; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +annew; got it ←
14:18:21 <Jeanne> Slide 6 We are at a turning point due to economic pressures and investments and localization issues. ICT should produce public valu.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 6 We are at a turning point due to economic pressures and investments and localization issues. ICT should produce public valu. ←
14:19:54 <Jeanne> Slide 7 Plan to look at evolution, objectives, policy-driven development, how that works with W3C, and conclusions.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 7 Plan to look at evolution, objectives, policy-driven development, how that works with W3C, and conclusions. ←
14:21:47 <olyerickson> q?
John Erickson: q? ←
14:22:21 <Jeanne> Slide 8 Electronic government is informing the work of government to citizens and other government through technology. This works through political systems, administrative systems, and civil society. Government includes missions and values, Technology goes from equipment to applications. Interactions includes channels, goals, partnerships, and governance. Customers and society look at the needs, trsut, demography, and globalization.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 8 Electronic government is informing the work of government to citizens and other government through technology. This works through political systems, administrative systems, and civil society. Government includes missions and values, Technology goes from equipment to applications. Interactions includes channels, goals, partnerships, and governance. Customers and society look at the needs, trsut, demography, and globalization. ←
14:24:59 <Jeanne> Slide 9 The interaction of society, economy, and environment help us to achieve sustainable development. The dimensions are also transitional.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 9 The interaction of society, economy, and environment help us to achieve sustainable development. The dimensions are also transitional. ←
14:25:30 <Jeanne> Slide 10 eGovernment and sustainable development = eGov4SD
Jeanne Holm: Slide 10 eGovernment and sustainable development = eGov4SD ←
14:25:45 <josema> this is certainly an interesting framework but I'll need some more time to digest it
José Alonso: this is certainly an interesting framework but I'll need some more time to digest it ←
14:26:14 <citizencontact> jose, i will give you 2 mins
Daniel Bennett: jose, i will give you 2 mins ←
14:26:23 <josema> ha, I would need 2hrs
José Alonso: ha, I would need 2hrs ←
14:26:29 <josema> :P
José Alonso: :P ←
14:26:40 <citizencontact> ok, you got it
Daniel Bennett: ok, you got it ←
14:30:28 <sandro> slide 16
Sandro Hawke: slide 16 ←
14:30:39 <sandro> SOCIAL SUSTAINABILITY – EXAMPLE
Sandro Hawke: SOCIAL SUSTAINABILITY – EXAMPLE ←
14:30:42 <sandro> slide 17
Sandro Hawke: slide 17 ←
14:30:49 <sandro> ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY – MAPPING
Sandro Hawke: ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY – MAPPING ←
14:31:34 <sandro> slide 18 ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY – MEASURES
Sandro Hawke: slide 18 ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY – MEASURES ←
14:31:41 <sandro> (and back to 17, for another example)
Sandro Hawke: (and back to 17, for another example) ←
14:32:42 <sandro> slide 18 ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY – STRATEGIES
Sandro Hawke: slide 18 ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY – STRATEGIES ←
14:33:03 <sandro> slide 20 ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY – EXAMPLE
Sandro Hawke: slide 20 ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY – EXAMPLE ←
14:33:13 <sandro> Crowd-sourcing renewable energy strategy on the Internet, Maldives:
Sandro Hawke: Crowd-sourcing renewable energy strategy on the Internet, Maldives: ←
14:33:22 <sandro> slide 21 ECONOMIC SUSTAINABILITY – MAPPING
Sandro Hawke: slide 21 ECONOMIC SUSTAINABILITY – MAPPING ←
14:33:58 <Jeanne> Slide 17-18: How do we map these different areas such as environmental sustainability--see the measures for climate change and how ICT can be used to support this.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 17-18: How do we map these different areas such as environmental sustainability--see the measures for climate change and how ICT can be used to support this. ←
14:34:00 <sandro> slide 22 ECONOMIC SUSTAINABILITY – MEASURES
Sandro Hawke: slide 22 ECONOMIC SUSTAINABILITY – MEASURES ←
14:34:07 <Jeanne> (Sandro--I can keep scribing now)
Jeanne Holm: (Sandro--I can keep scribing now) ←
14:34:18 <sandro> (ok)
Sandro Hawke: (ok) ←
14:35:00 <Zakim> -josema
Zakim IRC Bot: -josema ←
14:35:15 <Jeanne> Slide 22 Economic sustainability ICT can be used for energy efficient equipment, reduce transport congestion within cities, and supporting government growth and operation.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 22 Economic sustainability ICT can be used for energy efficient equipment, reduce transport congestion within cities, and supporting government growth and operation. ←
14:35:57 <josema> zakim, code?
José Alonso: zakim, code? ←
14:35:57 <Zakim> the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), josema
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), josema ←
14:35:59 <Jeanne> Slide 23 Singapore, Korea, Estonia, EU, UN, and Waseda all have specific strategies outlined for future goals and uses of ICT to support eGov.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 23 Singapore, Korea, Estonia, EU, UN, and Waseda all have specific strategies outlined for future goals and uses of ICT to support eGov. ←
14:36:21 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
14:36:27 <josema> zakim, ??P2 is me
José Alonso: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
14:36:27 <Zakim> +josema; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +josema; got it ←
14:36:31 <josema> zakim, mute me
José Alonso: zakim, mute me ←
14:36:31 <Zakim> josema should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: josema should now be muted ←
14:37:13 <Jeanne> Slide 25 How have eGov initiatives addressed these goals? adoption of green accounting, access of underprivileged groups, adoption of environmentally friendly practices, and energy from renewable sources.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 25 How have eGov initiatives addressed these goals? adoption of green accounting, access of underprivileged groups, adoption of environmentally friendly practices, and energy from renewable sources. ←
14:38:57 <Jeanne> Slide 26 Social, economic, environmental, and transitional indicators let us know if we are implementing to sustainable development. These can be population or life expectanacy, air travel and agricultural density, plant biodiversity and farmland loss, and changes in nutrition and access to poor for public decision-making, respectively
Jeanne Holm: Slide 26 Social, economic, environmental, and transitional indicators let us know if we are implementing to sustainable development. These can be population or life expectanacy, air travel and agricultural density, plant biodiversity and farmland loss, and changes in nutrition and access to poor for public decision-making, respectively ←
14:39:12 <Zakim> + +1.508.333.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.508.333.aaee ←
14:39:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aaa]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aaa] ←
14:39:41 <Jeanne> Slide 27 Some sustainable strategies include Korea (active response to adverse effects of informatization) and Waseda (disaster management and business continuity).
Jeanne Holm: Slide 27 Some sustainable strategies include Korea (active response to adverse effects of informatization) and Waseda (disaster management and business continuity). ←
14:39:42 <PhilA2> zakim, ipCaller is me
Phil Archer: zakim, ipCaller is me ←
14:39:42 <Zakim> +PhilA2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +PhilA2; got it ←
14:39:52 <gdick> zakim, aaee is me
Gannon Dick: zakim, aaee is me ←
14:39:52 <Zakim> +gdick; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gdick; got it ←
14:40:03 <Jeanne> Slide 28 Directgov, UK looks across green gov and green IT
Jeanne Holm: Slide 28 Directgov, UK looks across green gov and green IT ←
14:40:45 <josema> zakim, mute me
José Alonso: zakim, mute me ←
14:40:45 <Zakim> josema was already muted, josema
Zakim IRC Bot: josema was already muted, josema ←
14:40:51 <gdick> zakim, mute me
Gannon Dick: zakim, mute me ←
14:40:51 <Zakim> gdick should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gdick should now be muted ←
14:41:45 <Jeanne> Slide 30 Policy-driven eGov development shows that with each cycle we seek to add more value. Any eGov initiative should look to contribute to public value creation through social, economic, environmental, or transitional issues.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 30 Policy-driven eGov development shows that with each cycle we seek to add more value. Any eGov initiative should look to contribute to public value creation through social, economic, environmental, or transitional issues. ←
14:42:56 <Zakim> - +44.786.783.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: - +44.786.783.aadd ←
14:44:11 <Jeanne> Slide 31 The eGov policy cycle goes through planning, desgin, implementation, and operations and goes across measurement, evaluation, capacity building, and knowledge management. (Many specific services are referenced on the slide.)
Jeanne Holm: Slide 31 The eGov policy cycle goes through planning, desgin, implementation, and operations and goes across measurement, evaluation, capacity building, and knowledge management. (Many specific services are referenced on the slide.) ←
14:45:14 <josema> quite a number of things are resonating with the OGD approach at WF :)
José Alonso: quite a number of things are resonating with the OGD approach at WF :) ←
14:45:21 <Jeanne> Slide 32 EGOV.* is an EGOV4D Development Framework deployed in a few countries with the UN. Ongoing effort aimed at research and innovation, both human and institutional.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 32 EGOV.* is an EGOV4D Development Framework deployed in a few countries with the UN. Ongoing effort aimed at research and innovation, both human and institutional. ←
14:45:47 <Jeanne> josema: Yes, this is an exhaustive list and is excellent.
José Alonso: Yes, this is an exhaustive list and is excellent. [ Scribe Assist by Jeanne Holm ] ←
14:46:28 <josema> jeanne: certainly, much more complete than what I usually have in mind but in the same direction
Jeanne Holm: certainly, much more complete than what I usually have in mind but in the same direction [ Scribe Assist by José Alonso ] ←
14:47:47 <josema> "Bureaucracy is Pervasive" oh, yes!
José Alonso: "Bureaucracy is Pervasive" oh, yes! ←
14:48:40 <josema> i.e. you need to know how to make friends in the Public Administration and identify the champions
José Alonso: i.e. you need to know how to make friends in the Public Administration and identify the champions ←
14:48:47 <josema> :)
José Alonso: :) ←
14:49:07 <Jeanne> Slide 33 Cameroon example looks at how lessons are learned and recognizes the culture. The strategy for eGov informs public service reform and national ICT priority, in turn these inform the growth and employment strategy, which leads to a vision for 2035. The lessons from this study are that lower levels of government are low priority, fragmented stewardships, academia-government collaboration is necessary, and bureaucracy is pervasive.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 33 Cameroon example looks at how lessons are learned and recognizes the culture. The strategy for eGov informs public service reform and national ICT priority, in turn these inform the growth and employment strategy, which leads to a vision for 2035. The lessons from this study are that lower levels of government are low priority, fragmented stewardships, academia-government collaboration is necessary, and bureaucracy is pervasive. ←
14:50:23 <bhyland> Slide #35 - Relevant Standards & Groups slide is very helpful, thank you Tomasz
Bernadette Hyland: Slide #35 - Relevant Standards & Groups slide is very helpful, thank you Tomasz ←
14:50:32 <Jeanne> Slide 34 eGov relevant standards for W3C: LegalXML, StratML, EML, EDXL, SPML, SAML, NIEM, OVAL, GML, HR-XML.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 34 eGov relevant standards for W3C: LegalXML, StratML, EML, EDXL, SPML, SAML, NIEM, OVAL, GML, HR-XML. ←
14:50:51 <Jeanne> Are there standards that are missing from this list?
Jeanne Holm: Are there standards that are missing from this list? ←
14:52:28 <Jeanne> Slide 36 Some specific topics that have been opened in this work includes policies, government data, open government, accessibility of eGov services, social media, community directory and resources, education and outreach, data licensing, cloud computing, security and privacy, and library of shared eGov artifacts.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 36 Some specific topics that have been opened in this work includes policies, government data, open government, accessibility of eGov services, social media, community directory and resources, education and outreach, data licensing, cloud computing, security and privacy, and library of shared eGov artifacts. ←
14:53:03 <gdick> jeanne ADMS
Gannon Dick: jeanne ADMS ←
14:53:20 <Jeanne> gdick: Thanks, good addition.
Gannon Dick: Thanks, good addition. [ Scribe Assist by Jeanne Holm ] ←
14:54:22 <Jeanne> Slide 40 Evolution of public sector ICT towards policy-driven eGov. A case for using eGov in sustainable development. The proposed framework that shows what is entailed.
Jeanne Holm: Slide 40 Evolution of public sector ICT towards policy-driven eGov. A case for using eGov in sustainable development. The proposed framework that shows what is entailed. ←
14:54:40 <Jeanne> Tomasz: Can the framework serve as a possible policy-context for eGov at W3C?
Tomasz Janowski: Can the framework serve as a possible policy-context for eGov at W3C? [ Scribe Assist by Jeanne Holm ] ←
14:54:54 <olyerickson> (applause)
John Erickson: (applause) ←
14:54:57 <annew> wild applause
Anne Washington: wild applause ←
14:55:06 <citizencontact> thanks
Daniel Bennett: thanks ←
14:55:17 <PhilA2> q?
Phil Archer: q? ←
14:55:25 <citizencontact> q+
Daniel Bennett: q+ ←
14:55:45 <sandro> ack citizencontact
Sandro Hawke: ack citizencontact ←
14:56:00 <PhilA2> citizencontact: Has this framework been deployed?
Daniel Bennett: Has this framework been deployed? [ Scribe Assist by Phil Archer ] ←
14:56:09 <sandro> citizencontact: Has this framework been deployed? by the UN, or any other govt structure?
Daniel Bennett: Has this framework been deployed? by the UN, or any other govt structure? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:56:14 <sandro> :-)
Sandro Hawke: :-) ←
14:56:30 <bhyland> Thank you Tomasz, that was very comprehensive!
Bernadette Hyland: Thank you Tomasz, that was very comprehensive! ←
14:56:33 <sandro> PhilA2, want to scribe this time?
Sandro Hawke: PhilA2, want to scribe this time? ←
14:56:48 <olyerickson> zakim, unmute me.
John Erickson: zakim, unmute me. ←
14:56:48 <Zakim> [IPcaller.aa] should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: [IPcaller.aa] should no longer be muted ←
14:56:53 <PhilA2> scribe: PhilA2
(Scribe set to Phil Archer)
14:56:54 <olyerickson> q+
John Erickson: q+ ←
14:57:13 <PhilA2> Tomasz: We've used it in Afghanistan, China
Tomasz Janowski: We've used it in Afghanistan, China ←
14:57:23 <sandro> Tomasz: I mentioned Cameroon, etc This is still in research stage, though. We have put it into action in these countries I mentioned.
Tomasz Janowski: I mentioned Cameroon, etc This is still in research stage, though. We have put it into action in these countries I mentioned. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:57:33 <PhilA2> Tomasz: We're using it with UNDECA -
Tomasz Janowski: We're using it with UNDECA - ←
14:57:45 <PhilA2> ... how to measure the contribution of eGov in development
... how to measure the contribution of eGov in development ←
14:57:56 <PhilA2> ... still have a lot to learn though
... still have a lot to learn though ←
14:57:58 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
14:58:48 <PhilA2> olyerickson: Thank you, Tomasz. This sort of thing seemns highly structured. Is there a team that runs workshops etc. to teach implementation. Implementation interests me
John Erickson: Thank you, Tomasz. This sort of thing seemns highly structured. Is there a team that runs workshops etc. to teach implementation. Implementation interests me ←
14:59:03 <josema> +1 to olyerickson
José Alonso: +1 to olyerickson ←
14:59:03 <DeirdreLee> q?
Deirdre Lee: q? ←
14:59:09 <PhilA2> Tomasz: The basic principle for implementation is, eg. Cameroon, was local ownedership and participation
Tomasz Janowski: The basic principle for implementation is, eg. Cameroon, was local ownedership and participation ←
14:59:09 <DeirdreLee> q+
Deirdre Lee: q+ ←
14:59:20 <PhilA2> Tomasz: We hesitate to offer prescriptions
Tomasz Janowski: We hesitate to offer prescriptions ←
14:59:31 <PhilA2> q+
q+ ←
14:59:33 <josema> q+ to ask about bottom-up and M&E
José Alonso: q+ to ask about bottom-up and M&E ←
14:59:41 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.a] ←
14:59:44 <olyerickson> "faciliating a process" => understood
John Erickson: "faciliating a process" => understood ←
15:00:20 <PhilA2> Tomasz: I agree that it looks organised, maybe too well organised - but it was useful to guide the discussion, to ask the relevant questions to work out the strategy development.
Tomasz Janowski: I agree that it looks organised, maybe too well organised - but it was useful to guide the discussion, to ask the relevant questions to work out the strategy development. ←
15:00:44 <PhilA2> Tomasz: Implementation has been carried out through broadly identified stakeholders in local and national gov plus academia.
Tomasz Janowski: Implementation has been carried out through broadly identified stakeholders in local and national gov plus academia. ←
15:00:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:00:53 <PhilA2> Tomasz: Two conferences held in Cameroon
Tomasz Janowski: Two conferences held in Cameroon ←
15:01:24 <PhilA2> olyerickson: That explains a lot. My follow up. In the cases where it has been implemented - has that been documented as use cases etc.?
John Erickson: That explains a lot. My follow up. In the cases where it has been implemented - has that been documented as use cases etc.? ←
15:01:35 <PhilA2> ... so that other countries can learn from your experience
... so that other countries can learn from your experience ←
15:01:57 <PhilA2> Tomasz: We have it documented on the project level but we're turning it into public documents to reflect on these experiences
Tomasz Janowski: We have it documented on the project level but we're turning it into public documents to reflect on these experiences ←
15:02:09 <PhilA2> ... those docs should be available in the next couple of months
... those docs should be available in the next couple of months ←
15:02:19 <PhilA2> .. the strategy docs are publicly available now
.. the strategy docs are publicly available now ←
15:02:36 <PhilA2> ... they are in the public domain already, but the experiences are not yet
... they are in the public domain already, but the experiences are not yet ←
15:02:47 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:02:48 <olyerickson> q?
John Erickson: q? ←
15:02:54 <olyerickson> ack me
John Erickson: ack me ←
15:03:08 <PhilA2> DeirdreLee: My first eGov call... I work at DERI Galway
Deirdre Lee: My first eGov call... I work at DERI Galway ←
15:03:18 <PhilA2> thanks Tomasz for the presentation
thanks Tomasz for the presentation ←
15:03:43 <PhilA2> DeirdreLee: On the mapping... could you explain how the mapping is done. How do you decide which eGov dimension maps to what?
Deirdre Lee: On the mapping... could you explain how the mapping is done. How do you decide which eGov dimension maps to what? ←
15:03:52 <PhilA2> Tomasz: The dimensions follow from the definition
Tomasz Janowski: The dimensions follow from the definition ←
15:04:01 <PhilA2> ... there is no single definition of eGov
... there is no single definition of eGov ←
15:04:33 <PhilA2> Tomasz: mapping to things like sustainability - done bottom up way. Looking at evidence from around the world
Tomasz Janowski: mapping to things like sustainability - done bottom up way. Looking at evidence from around the world ←
15:04:48 <PhilA2> ... access for all, poverty alleviation etc
... access for all, poverty alleviation etc ←
15:05:02 <PhilA2> ack DeirdreLee
ack DeirdreLee ←
15:05:38 <Brand> Mapping Global Sustainable Development: http://semanticommunity.info/Sustainable_Society_Foundation_Index_2010
Brand Niemann: Mapping Global Sustainable Development: http://semanticommunity.info/Sustainable_Society_Foundation_Index_2010 ←
15:06:02 <PhilA2> Tomasz: It's more like a bottom up than a top down design process. There's still a lot ot learn on how these mappings can address local policy objectives
Tomasz Janowski: It's more like a bottom up than a top down design process. There's still a lot ot learn on how these mappings can address local policy objectives ←
15:06:12 <PhilA2> ack me
ack me ←
15:06:25 <Jeanne> ack PhilA
Jeanne Holm: ack PhilA ←
15:06:49 <Jeanne> PhilA2: What was your biggest surprise--what should we be looking at and what assumptions should we not be making?
Phil Archer: What was your biggest surprise--what should we be looking at and what assumptions should we not be making? [ Scribe Assist by Jeanne Holm ] ←
15:06:51 <olyerickson> PhilA: biggest surprise in implementing process in e.g. Camaroon?
Phil Archer: biggest surprise in implementing process in e.g. Camaroon? [ Scribe Assist by John Erickson ] ←
15:07:19 <PhilA2> Tomasz: If we look at the standard way of International Aid supporting - you get people going in and opening up the tool box of what should be done
Tomasz Janowski: If we look at the standard way of International Aid supporting - you get people going in and opening up the tool box of what should be done ←
15:07:41 <PhilA2> Tomasz: I'd say the local engagement is important
Tomasz Janowski: I'd say the local engagement is important ←
15:07:56 <PhilA2> Tomasz: It is possible to have enough expertise and leadership locally
Tomasz Janowski: It is possible to have enough expertise and leadership locally ←
15:08:34 <PhilA2> Tomasz: The surprise was that this was the correct assumption. We find enough leadership and enthusiasm for meaningful work
Tomasz Janowski: The surprise was that this was the correct assumption. We find enough leadership and enthusiasm for meaningful work ←
15:08:36 <josema> I couldn't agree more
José Alonso: I couldn't agree more ←
15:08:53 <PhilA2> Tomasz: A pleasant confirmation that capacity building approach is possible to realise
Tomasz Janowski: A pleasant confirmation that capacity building approach is possible to realise ←
15:09:20 <PhilA2> q?
q? ←
15:09:23 <PhilA2> ack josema
ack josema ←
15:09:24 <Zakim> josema, you wanted to ask about bottom-up and M&E
Zakim IRC Bot: josema, you wanted to ask about bottom-up and M&E ←
15:09:36 <PhilA2> josema: Thanks for the presentation
José Alonso: Thanks for the presentation ←
15:09:42 <PhilA2> josema: A lot of info
José Alonso: A lot of info ←
15:10:03 <PhilA2> josema: A lot of what you present resonates with me. The approach we're using is similar to the one you describe
José Alonso: A lot of what you present resonates with me. The approach we're using is similar to the one you describe ←
15:10:16 <PhilA2> ... something we're intending to do is work in Ghana
... something we're intending to do is work in Ghana ←
15:10:31 <PhilA2> ... I couldn't agree more with the way you describe local skill
... I couldn't agree more with the way you describe local skill ←
15:10:50 <PhilA2> josema: The Web Foundation is all about building local capacity
José Alonso: The Web Foundation is all about building local capacity ←
15:11:28 <PhilA2> josema: The UK Gov tried to engage civil society. Here we're going one step forward and engage a secretariat of gov agencies plus civil agencies plus universities and media
José Alonso: The UK Gov tried to engage civil society. Here we're going one step forward and engage a secretariat of gov agencies plus civil agencies plus universities and media ←
15:11:38 <PhilA2> ... the steering committee owns the initiative
... the steering committee owns the initiative ←
15:12:01 <PhilA2> ... have you experience this in previous projects with everyone working in a collaborative way and can you offer guidance
... have you experience this in previous projects with everyone working in a collaborative way and can you offer guidance ←
15:12:59 <Jeanne> q?
Jeanne Holm: q? ←
15:13:32 <PhilA2> josema: I'm sure there will be tension on a steering cttee - that exists where there's just a gov department - but the goals of the different stakeholders are different
José Alonso: I'm sure there will be tension on a steering cttee - that exists where there's just a gov department - but the goals of the different stakeholders are different ←
15:13:54 <PhilA2> Tomasz: It seems to me that the governance structure of the steering committee is good
Tomasz Janowski: It seems to me that the governance structure of the steering committee is good ←
15:14:15 <PhilA2> Tomasz: In addition to the governance structure, what worked for us was a cometant project coordination team
Tomasz Janowski: In addition to the governance structure, what worked for us was a cometant project coordination team ←
15:14:50 <PhilA2> Tomasz: There were 3 or 4 people in Cameroon and Afghanistan we invited people from ministries to Macao to discuss the project
Tomasz Janowski: There were 3 or 4 people in Cameroon and Afghanistan we invited people from ministries to Macao to discuss the project ←
15:15:07 <PhilA2> ... within the committee you have good access to the decision makers
... within the committee you have good access to the decision makers ←
15:15:20 <PhilA2> ... related agencies and ministries to carry out initiatives on open data
... related agencies and ministries to carry out initiatives on open data ←
15:15:32 <josema> good advice and yes, we have both
José Alonso: good advice and yes, we have both ←
15:15:40 <PhilA2> ... these people can become trainers for other stakeholders
... these people can become trainers for other stakeholders ←
15:16:12 <PhilA2> josema: We intend to hold a number of actions along the way for people to meet each other to match up supply and demand side
José Alonso: We intend to hold a number of actions along the way for people to meet each other to match up supply and demand side ←
15:16:21 <Jeanne> q
Jeanne Holm: q ←
15:16:36 <PhilA2> Tomasz: Your project team needs tobe representative. That can be hard to achieve
Tomasz Janowski: Your project team needs tobe representative. That can be hard to achieve ←
15:16:47 <PhilA2> ... the implementation team need gov and academia
... the implementation team need gov and academia ←
15:16:54 <PhilA2> q?
q? ←
15:17:00 <citizencontact> general fyi: at XML Prague conference, Jeni Tennison gave a fantastic keynote speech on how XML, HTML, RDF, and JSON can work together. She worked with John Sheridan on the UK Gov legislation site: http://www.xmlprague.cz/2012/files/video-archive-1.html?ps_idc=0&ps_ida=453&ps_idb=2761
Daniel Bennett: general fyi: at XML Prague conference, Jeni Tennison gave a fantastic keynote speech on how XML, HTML, RDF, and JSON can work together. She worked with John Sheridan on the UK Gov legislation site: http://www.xmlprague.cz/2012/files/video-archive-1.html?ps_idc=0&ps_ida=453&ps_idb=2761 ←
15:17:09 <josema> zakim, mute me
José Alonso: zakim, mute me ←
15:17:09 <Zakim> josema should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: josema should now be muted ←
15:17:25 <PhilA2> Jeanne: When you see the different ways people apprach this. Do they begin by working on getting the process right or engaging with the public first?
Jeanne Holm: When you see the different ways people apprach this. Do they begin by working on getting the process right or engaging with the public first? ←
15:17:41 <PhilA2> Tomasz: Policy makers are very conscious of how they look when they go ahead with a project
Tomasz Janowski: Policy makers are very conscious of how they look when they go ahead with a project ←
15:17:56 <PhilA2> Tomasz: They want to public to be satisfied with the outcome of course
Tomasz Janowski: They want to public to be satisfied with the outcome of course ←
15:18:15 <PhilA2> ... the environment is what it is - it's hard to change. It;s beyond the control of the project
... the environment is what it is - it's hard to change. It;s beyond the control of the project ←
15:18:19 <josema> fully agree on that having "multistakeholderism" at the SC easier than at the project coordination team, will work on that, too
José Alonso: fully agree on that having "multistakeholderism" at the SC easier than at the project coordination team, will work on that, too ←
15:18:36 <PhilA2> ... initiatives of this nature need a local leader who is willing to go all the way to ensure success
... initiatives of this nature need a local leader who is willing to go all the way to ensure success ←
15:19:51 <gdick> ref one stop gov http://www.lexml.gov.br/
Gannon Dick: ref one stop gov http://www.lexml.gov.br/ ←
15:19:56 <PhilA2> Jeanne: Thanks Tomasz for such an interesting presentation with such a clear challenge to us
Jeanne Holm: Thanks Tomasz for such an interesting presentation with such a clear challenge to us ←
15:20:03 <citizencontact> Would nice to have a breakdown of translating the technical aspects of a project to the economic, governance and environmental that would go into the framework that Tomas presented.
Daniel Bennett: Would nice to have a breakdown of translating the technical aspects of a project to the economic, governance and environmental that would go into the framework that Tomas presented. ←
15:20:26 <PhilA2> Jeanne: It's not about provision of services to gov but inter agency collaboration, nat and local government to work together
Jeanne Holm: It's not about provision of services to gov but inter agency collaboration, nat and local government to work together ←
15:20:52 <citizencontact> q+
Daniel Bennett: q+ ←
15:21:00 <PhilA2> PhilA2: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/
Phil Archer: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/ ←
15:21:04 <bhyland> @citizencontact thanks for XML Prague talk by Jeni. Look fo forward to it.
Bernadette Hyland: @citizencontact thanks for XML Prague talk by Jeni. Look fo forward to it. ←
15:22:30 <PhilA2> Tomasz: Internat conference in Albany, NY, in October. 6th conference in series on... ?? (sorry)
Tomasz Janowski: Internat conference in Albany, NY, in October. 6th conference in series on... ?? (sorry) ←
15:22:33 <josema> phila2, you might want to add more people fomr the civil society to the PC
José Alonso: phila2, you might want to add more people from the civil society to the PC ←
15:22:40 <josema> s/fomr/from
15:22:41 <Brand> 13th SOA for Egov Conference, MITRE McLean, Virginia - see https://register.mitre.org/soa/ for registration opens soon - free
Brand Niemann: 13th SOA for Egov Conference, MITRE McLean, Virginia - see https://register.mitre.org/soa/ for registration opens soon - free ←
15:22:53 <Jeanne> Save the date for the second International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12 in Washington DC at the World Bank. Focus on eGovernment, open government, and open data. Josema and I are working on a session that might be able to highlight the work of the eGov IG--let me know if you are interested.
Jeanne Holm: Save the date for the second International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12 in Washington DC at the World Bank. Focus on eGovernment, open government, and open data. Josema and I are working on a session that might be able to highlight the work of the eGov IG--let me know if you are interested. ←
15:23:14 <PhilA2> Jeanne: In July 10 - 12 in DC we have our second Int Gov Data conference
Jeanne Holm: In July 10 - 12 in DC we have our second Int Gov Data conference ←
15:23:23 <olyerickson> See http://www.icegov.org/
John Erickson: See http://www.icegov.org/ ←
15:23:31 <PhilA2> Jeanne: would like to highlight work of this gourp
Jeanne Holm: would like to highlight work of this gourp ←
15:23:35 <olyerickson> "6th International Conference on Theory and Practice of Electronic Governance (ICEGOV2012) will take place in Albany, NY, United States from October 22-25, 2012..."
John Erickson: "6th International Conference on Theory and Practice of Electronic Governance (ICEGOV2012) will take place in Albany, NY, United States from October 22-25, 2012..." ←
15:23:45 <PhilA2> Jeanne: Probably have a virtual conference as well
Jeanne Holm: Probably have a virtual conference as well ←
15:23:56 <josema> btw, anybody going to OGP event in Brazil in April?
José Alonso: btw, anybody going to OGP event in Brazil in April? ←
15:24:05 <josema> I expect to be there
José Alonso: I expect to be there ←
15:24:21 <PhilA2> Daniel: Conference end of the month in DC - Global Centre ICT work with the House
Daniel Bennett: Conference end of the month in DC - Global Centre ICT work with the House ←
15:24:29 <PhilA2> ... coming in to talk about tech in legislation
... coming in to talk about tech in legislation ←
15:24:34 <josema> http://www.opengovpartnership.org/OGPMeeting/April2012/Brasilia/Registration
José Alonso: http://www.opengovpartnership.org/OGPMeeting/April2012/Brasilia/Registration ←
15:25:01 <PhilA2> citizencontact: Excellent speech by JeniT on legislation.gov.uk
Daniel Bennett: Excellent speech by JeniT on legislation.gov.uk ←
15:25:11 <PhilA2> ... new group in OASIS about legal XML
... new group in OASIS about legal XML ←
15:25:30 <PhilA2> Jeanne: Details of the event this month?
Jeanne Holm: Details of the event this month? ←
15:25:34 <PhilA2> citizencontact: I'll send to the list
Daniel Bennett: I'll send to the list ←
15:25:54 <PhilA2> Jeanne: Feel free to use the list between meetings.
Jeanne Holm: Feel free to use the list between meetings. ←
15:26:22 <PhilA2> Jeanne: Want to make more chance for people to join in, probably switching time zones with 2 meetings per month
Jeanne Holm: Want to make more chance for people to join in, probably switching time zones with 2 meetings per month ←
15:26:34 <PhilA2> Jeanne: Meet again in a month for now
Jeanne Holm: Meet again in a month for now ←
15:26:57 <olyerickson> Thanks everyone, great meeting
John Erickson: Thanks everyone, great meeting ←
15:27:02 <annew> bye
Anne Washington: bye ←
15:27:02 <Zakim> -josema
Zakim IRC Bot: -josema ←
15:27:04 <Zakim> -bhyland
Zakim IRC Bot: -bhyland ←
15:27:04 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
15:27:05 <Zakim> -??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P16 ←
15:27:06 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aa]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.aa] ←
15:27:08 <Zakim> -gdick
Zakim IRC Bot: -gdick ←
15:27:13 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aaa]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.aaa] ←
15:27:14 <Zakim> -annew
Zakim IRC Bot: -annew ←
15:27:14 <Zakim> -DeirdreLee
Zakim IRC Bot: -DeirdreLee ←
15:27:16 <Zakim> - +1.703.281.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.703.281.aacc ←
15:27:21 <Zakim> -PhilA2
Zakim IRC Bot: -PhilA2 ←
15:27:34 <Zakim> -edsu
Zakim IRC Bot: -edsu ←
15:27:43 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
15:28:48 <pdm> byes
Paola Di Maio: byes ←
Formatted by CommonScribe