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eGovernment Interest Group

Minutes of 28 April 2010

Present
Daniel Bennett, Ed Summers, John Sheridan, Kevin Novak, Owen Ambur, Sandro Hawke, Chris Beer
Guests
Paul Curtis (Staffer for NY State Assembly Member Micah Kellner), Rigo Wenning (W3C), Benjamin Kallos
Scribe
Daniel Bennett
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics
<sandro> Guest: Paul Curtis, Staffer for NY State Assembly Member Micah Kellner
<sandro> Guest: Rigo Wenning, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Benjamin Kallos
<sandro> Present: Daniel_Bennett, Ed_Summers, John_Sheridan, Kevin_Novak, Owen_Ambur, Sandro_Hawke, Chris_Beer
<sandro> Topic: New York's Open Government Data Bill

1. New York's Open Government Data Bill

09:02:55 <sandro> zakim, this is egov

Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is egov

09:03:18 <Chris> cool

Chris Beer: cool

09:03:39 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches T&S_EGOV()9:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches T&S_EGOV()9:00AM

09:06:20 <Zakim> -??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P10

09:06:52 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

09:06:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.449.aaaa, Sandro, +1.917.432.aabb, +1.202.731.aacc, [LC], +1.917.570.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.202.449.aaaa, Sandro, +1.917.432.aabb, +1.202.731.aacc, [LC], +1.917.570.aadd

09:07:26 <Daniel_Bennett> Daniel: I volunteer to scribe

Daniel Bennett: I volunteer to scribe [ Scribe Assist by Daniel Bennett ]

09:07:27 <johnlsheridan> Gah - skype!

John Sheridan: Gah - skype!

09:07:34 <johnlsheridan> Will dial back in....

John Sheridan: Will dial back in....

09:07:45 <johnlsheridan> Kevin, could you handle chairing?

John Sheridan: Kevin, could you handle chairing?

09:08:14 <sandro> scribe: Daniel_Bennett

(Scribe set to Daniel Bennett)

09:08:21 <edsu> Zakim, LC is edsu

Ed Summers: Zakim, LC is edsu

09:08:21 <Zakim> +edsu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +edsu; got it

09:08:26 <Daniel_Bennett> Kevin: about to start. are there any other agenda items?

Kevin Novak: about to start. are there any other agenda items?

09:08:36 <Zakim> + +61.4.286.0.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +61.4.286.0.aaee

09:08:57 <sandro> johnlsheridan, yes, Kevin's got it.

Sandro Hawke: johnlsheridan, yes, Kevin's got it.

09:08:58 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16

09:08:59 <Daniel_Bennett> ... Daniel will do Public Meeting Notice demo for next meeting. add to agenda

... Daniel will do Public Meeting Notice demo for next meeting. add to agenda

09:09:10 <Daniel_Bennett> ... turning it over to NY folks

... turning it over to NY folks

09:09:15 <sandro> Paul Curtis

Sandro Hawke: Paul Curtis

09:09:35 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul Curtis: staffer for a legislator in NY 65th district

Paul Curtis: staffer for a legislator in NY 65th district

09:09:41 <sandro> office of Micah Kellner, assembly member

Sandro Hawke: office of Micah Kellner, assembly member

09:09:59 <Daniel_Bennett> ... also on the line from NY State Ben

... also on the line from NY State Ben

09:10:16 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

09:10:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.449.aaaa, Sandro, +1.917.432.aabb, +1.202.731.aacc, edsu, +1.917.570.aadd, +61.4.286.0.aaee, ??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.202.449.aaaa, Sandro, +1.917.432.aabb, +1.202.731.aacc, edsu, +1.917.570.aadd, +61.4.286.0.aaee, ??P16

09:10:17 <Daniel_Bennett> ... I am speaking from policy side about this issue

... I am speaking from policy side about this issue

09:10:47 <Daniel_Bennett> ... I was asked to speak about March 18th bill that adds to freedom of info act

... I was asked to speak about March 18th bill that adds to freedom of info act

09:10:47 <sandro> paul: amendment to FOI law

Paul Curtis: amendment to FOI law [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:11:03 <sandro> paul: based on 8 principals of open data

Paul Curtis: based on 8 principals of open data [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:11:22 <Daniel_Bennett> ... based on principles of open data http://www.assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=a10335

... based on principles of open data http://www.assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=a10335

09:11:54 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul: looked to UK's open data and US federal Open Govt. Directive

Paul Curtis: looked to UK's open data and US federal Open Govt. Directive

09:12:01 <sandro> paul: data.gov.uk really interesting to look at, white house open gov directive (transparency, etc, open format, pro-active use of tech, instead of waiting for FOI)

Paul Curtis: data.gov.uk really interesting to look at, white house open gov directive (transparency, etc, open format, pro-active use of tech, instead of waiting for FOI) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:12:14 <sandro> paul: 991 nyc city council

Paul Curtis: 991 nyc city council [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:12:36 <Daniel_Bennett> ... trying to be proactive to release data rather than just waiting for requests. Also looking at NY City Council legislation

... trying to be proactive to release data rather than just waiting for requests. Also looking at NY City Council legislation

09:12:58 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

09:13:17 <Daniel_Bennett> ... 991 nyc city council. Another interesting influence is Utahs open data site.

... 991 nyc city council. Another interesting influence is Utahs open data site.

09:13:37 <sandro> paul: centralized web portal

Paul Curtis: centralized web portal [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:13:40 <Daniel_Bennett> ... agencies will have to put data online through a state centralized web portal.

... agencies will have to put data online through a state centralized web portal.

09:13:54 <sandro> paul: start with newly created records, Jan 3 2011.

Paul Curtis: start with newly created records, Jan 3 2011. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:14:17 <sandro> paul: timetable

Paul Curtis: timetable [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:14:32 <Daniel_Bennett> ... as of Jan 3rd (if legislation passes as written now. That timetable is base on 4 types: immediate records -30 days

... as of Jan 3rd (if legislation passes as written now. That timetable is base on 4 types: immediate records -30 days

09:15:05 <sandro> paul: july 2014 for legacy records

Paul Curtis: july 2014 for legacy records [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:15:13 <Daniel_Bennett> ... records to large or complex have six months to be put online (considered legacy records)

... records to large or complex have six months to be put online (considered legacy records)

09:15:20 <sandro> paul: not FOIA records dont need to be on line

Paul Curtis: not FOIA records dont need to be on line [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:15:50 <sandro> paul: machine readable and electronic form

Paul Curtis: machine readable and electronic form [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:15:51 <rigo> zakim, code?

Rigo Wenning: zakim, code?

09:15:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), rigo

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), rigo

09:16:11 <sandro> paul: with registration, fees, restrictions,    as close to real-time as possible.

Paul Curtis: with registration, fees, restrictions, as close to real-time as possible. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:16:27 <Daniel_Bennett> ... Legislation -- machine readable, electronic form, without any license or cost, permanent, and online as soon as possible.

... Legislation -- machine readable, electronic form, without any license or cost, permanent, and online as soon as possible.

09:16:36 <Zakim> +Rigo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Rigo

09:16:40 <sandro> paul: privacy -- included FOIA privacy protections

Paul Curtis: privacy -- included FOIA privacy protections [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:16:46 <Daniel_Bennett> ... already includes privacy protections.

... already includes privacy protections.

09:17:17 <sandro> paul: several named exceptions, as in FOIL

Paul Curtis: several named exceptions, as in FOIL [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:17:39 <sandro> paul: We got asked about RDF, SPARQL

Paul Curtis: We got asked about RDF, SPARQL [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:17:44 <Daniel_Bennett> ... will avoid personal records and other things such as trade secrets, sensitive court records as already provided for in Freedom of Info Act (NY state)

... will avoid personal records and other things such as trade secrets, sensitive court records as already provided for in Freedom of Info Act (NY state)

09:18:12 <rigo> paul: doing technical neutral legislation

Paul Curtis: doing technical neutral legislation [ Scribe Assist by Rigo Wenning ]

09:18:28 <Daniel_Bennett> ... technical standards are not specified, but looks to state agencies to regulate themselves per current best standards.

... technical standards are not specified, but looks to state agencies to regulate themselves per current best standards.

09:18:55 <sandro> paul: We see technical standards are a moving target, which we wouldnt want to freeze in statute, so we want the state agency (State Office for Technology) to create a Technical Manual, based on web standards from consensus standards bodies.    CIO required to continue to consult.

Paul Curtis: We see technical standards are a moving target, which we wouldnt want to freeze in statute, so we want the state agency (State Office for Technology) to create a Technical Manual, based on web standards from consensus standards bodies. CIO required to continue to consult. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:19:03 <rigo> paul: manual with selection of standards

Paul Curtis: manual with selection of standards [ Scribe Assist by Rigo Wenning ]

09:19:04 <Daniel_Bennett> ... there will be a manual that will be developed so that CIO can have consensus kept.

... there will be a manual that will be developed so that CIO can have consensus kept.

09:19:37 <Daniel_Bennett> ... by the time of the enactment. NY does not have a reputation as open, but this legislation will help change things.

... by the time of the enactment. NY does not have a reputation as open, but this legislation will help change things.

09:19:43 <sandro> paul: Pretty good support so far.    This legislation is beginning to be recognized as an pretty good tool in opening up govt.

Paul Curtis: Pretty good support so far. This legislation is beginning to be recognized as an pretty good tool in opening up govt. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:19:44 <rigo> I note that EU and most national governaments do the same: e.g. SAGA of Germany, CAMSS etc

Rigo Wenning: I note that EU and most national governaments do the same: e.g. SAGA of Germany, CAMSS etc

09:20:12 <Daniel_Bennett> ... have reached out and gotten support from lots of NGOs that support opening govt info.

... have reached out and gotten support from lots of NGOs that support opening govt info.

09:20:24 <sandro> paul: companion peice of NYS leglsature to put its own work on line

Paul Curtis: companion peice of NYS leglsature to put its own work on line [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:20:25 <rigo> so that the interoperability challenges will be in the manual

Rigo Wenning: so that the interoperability challenges will be in the manual

09:20:41 <Daniel_Bennett> ... We are at a point that legislation has a good chance of passage.

... We are at a point that legislation has a good chance of passage.

09:20:53 <Daniel_Bennett> ... Are there any question?

... Are there any question?

09:20:53 <rigo> q+

Rigo Wenning: q+

09:20:56 <johnlsheridan> q+

John Sheridan: q+

09:21:01 <rigo> q- later

Rigo Wenning: q- later

09:21:10 <rigo> ack rigo

Rigo Wenning: ack rigo

09:21:22 <Chris> +q

Chris Beer: +q

09:21:27 <Daniel_Bennett> what is the name?

what is the name?

09:21:33 <sandro> Rigo Wenning

Sandro Hawke: Rigo Wenning

09:22:13 <Daniel_Bennett> Rigo: This legislation sounds good. We always come back as organizations and say although we do that, the data is not interoperable.

Rigo Wenning: This legislation sounds good. We always come back as organizations and say although we do that, the data is not interoperable.

09:22:30 <sandro> rigo: National Govts always come back and sat still, interop doesn't work.    EU has 27 countries, and EU-wide efforts.   Transborder interop is much more important.

Rigo Wenning: National Govts always come back and sat still, interop doesn't work. EU has 27 countries, and EU-wide efforts. Transborder interop is much more important. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:23:21 <Daniel_Bennett> ... Then trans-border data should be interoperable is very important. I think the manual is key part. Can you keep the standards out of the legislation?

... Then trans-border data should be interoperable is very important. I think the manual is key part. Can you keep the standards out of the legislation?

09:23:46 <sandro> rigo: The interop challenge is in the manual:    Can you remain technically neutral, as you want, without hampering interop.     If one state does it in XML and another RDF and another does CSV, you'll have only a vague sort of interop.    This is exactly the challenge we have in the EU -- everyone does something in their corner.

Rigo Wenning: The interop challenge is in the manual: Can you remain technically neutral, as you want, without hampering interop. If one state does it in XML and another RDF and another does CSV, you'll have only a vague sort of interop. This is exactly the challenge we have in the EU -- everyone does something in their corner. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:23:55 <sandro> rigo: XML is sold as a panacea, but it's not.

Rigo Wenning: XML is sold as a panacea, but it's not. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:24:06 <sandro> rigo: We need ontology federation, and such.

Rigo Wenning: We need ontology federation, and such. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:24:20 <Daniel_Bennett> ... other states may create non-interoperable data that is too difficult to have usable data across the orgs without a lot of cost.

... other states may create non-interoperable data that is too difficult to have usable data across the orgs without a lot of cost.

09:24:29 <sandro> paul: That's certainly a concern; we have many jurisdictional issues as well.

Paul Curtis: That's certainly a concern; we have many jurisdictional issues as well. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:24:59 <sandro> paul: How much can you put into statute without tying the hands of the CIO, without tying your hands going forward?   How much would you want in statute?

Paul Curtis: How much can you put into statute without tying the hands of the CIO, without tying your hands going forward? How much would you want in statute? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:25:08 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul: We are considering the many jurisdictions, but how do you keep the standards in the legislation from hurting CIOs from making good chances?

Paul Curtis: We are considering the many jurisdictions, but how do you keep the standards in the legislation from hurting CIOs from making good chances?

09:25:47 <sandro> benj: each of the 50 states has its own power to decide what standards it will use.

Benjamin Kallos: each of the 50 states has its own power to decide what standards it will use. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:26:00 <Daniel_Bennett> Benjamin: Federalist model means that each state creates own data.

Benjamin Kallos: Federalist model means that each state creates own data.

09:26:12 <sandro> benj: if we (NY) do it well, we might be the role model

Benjamin Kallos: if we (NY) do it well, we might be the role model [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:26:34 <Daniel_Bennett> ... so do you mean we should work with Federal system? And use funding to pull cooperation.

... so do you mean we should work with Federal system? And use funding to pull cooperation.

09:26:52 <sandro> benj: Database of law from all 50 states; 18 different fields for one type of information?

Benjamin Kallos: Database of law from all 50 states; 18 different fields for one type of information? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:26:53 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

09:27:22 <sandro> daniel: I've been working on XML for legislative data centers

Daniel Bennett: I've been working on XML for legislative data centers [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:28:02 <sandro> daniel: Not just federal systems, but sep of govt from legislature -- separation of powers, which confuses things.   ministers dont oversee the agency.

Daniel Bennett: Not just federal systems, but sep of govt from legislature -- separation of powers, which confuses things. ministers dont oversee the agency. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:29:27 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: NCSL, ????, oportunities for view this across the states, despite attemps for 15-20 years.   NYS may have a big problem doing this within the law.     I feel badly not being able to answer why not best standards.      There are a lto of state govts that have relied on commercial firms, and those firms end up with rights.

Daniel Bennett: NCSL, ????, oportunities for view this across the states, despite attemps for 15-20 years. NYS may have a big problem doing this within the law. I feel badly not being able to answer why not best standards. There are a lto of state govts that have relied on commercial firms, and those firms end up with rights. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:29:34 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

09:30:36 <sandro> benj: yeah, you've hit the problem on the nose, in the US.     Privatizing sometimes turns into a problem down the road.

Benjamin Kallos: yeah, you've hit the problem on the nose, in the US. Privatizing sometimes turns into a problem down the road. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:31:04 <Daniel_Bennett> Benjamin: Dirty secret is that privatizing government is that this has led to private firms get contracts that make info harder to use.

Benjamin Kallos: Dirty secret is that privatizing government is that this has led to private firms get contracts that make info harder to use.

09:31:10 <Zakim> -??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P16

09:31:20 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul: That is why we say no copyrights on data.

Paul Curtis: That is why we say no copyrights on data.

09:31:21 <sandro> benj: most govt information cannot be copyrighted, but there can be a license on the website which essentially puts it back under copyright.

Benjamin Kallos: most govt information cannot be copyrighted, but there can be a license on the website which essentially puts it back under copyright. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:31:50 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16

09:31:50 <sandro> benj: $4K/yr for subscription to govt data (when it's public info)

Benjamin Kallos: $4K/yr for subscription to govt data (when it's public info) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:31:56 <sandro> benj: Special interests.

Benjamin Kallos: Special interests. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:31:58 <edsu> ben++

Ed Summers: ben++

09:31:59 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

09:32:07 <sandro> ack johnlsheridan

Sandro Hawke: ack johnlsheridan

09:32:14 <Daniel_Bennett> Benjamin: Problem has been that data is available in a way on the website, but otherwise data must be purchased by private firm--in the past.

Benjamin Kallos: Problem has been that data is available in a way on the website, but otherwise data must be purchased by private firm--in the past.

09:32:55 <Daniel_Bennett> John: What is the reason for the the legislation, is it here to reduce costs?

John Sheridan: What is the reason for the the legislation, is it here to reduce costs?

09:32:57 <sandro> johnlsheridan: Motivation for policy?     transparency?     public services?     public money-well-spent?       internal cost saving (FOI)?

John Sheridan: Motivation for policy? transparency? public services? public money-well-spent? internal cost saving (FOI)? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:33:17 <sandro> paul: That's not all of it.     cost-of-FOI is an argument we do make.

Paul Curtis: That's not all of it. cost-of-FOI is an argument we do make. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:34:16 <sandro> paul: AM Kellner's primary reasons were transparency, and making data available to benefit people's daily lives, as we've seen with apps.

Paul Curtis: AM Kellner's primary reasons were transparency, and making data available to benefit people's daily lives, as we've seen with apps. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:34:30 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul: FOIA request to cost and reducing cost is important. But from the perspective of Rep. Kellner was transparency issue and the idea of the benefit of the data to the public. Such as applications of the data. Looked at NYC Big Apple apps contest.

Paul Curtis: FOIA request to cost and reducing cost is important. But from the perspective of Rep. Kellner was transparency issue and the idea of the benefit of the data to the public. Such as applications of the data. Looked at NYC Big Apple apps contest.

09:34:34 <sandro> paul: unleashing creativity

Paul Curtis: unleashing creativity [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:34:47 <sandro> paul: so, both.

Paul Curtis: so, both. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:34:51 <sandro> zakim, q?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, q?

09:34:51 <Zakim> I see Chris on the speaker queue

Zakim IRC Bot: I see Chris on the speaker queue

09:35:02 <Daniel_Bennett> .... When Rep. Kellner talks about the legislation it is about transparency and use of the data.

.... When Rep. Kellner talks about the legislation it is about transparency and use of the data.

09:35:29 <sandro> Chris: stds in legislation -- "open standards, full stop"

Chris Beer: stds in legislation -- "open standards, full stop" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:35:43 <rigo> q+ to suggest legislation by reference and to specify an exchange format as a minimum standard

Rigo Wenning: q+ to suggest legislation by reference and to specify an exchange format as a minimum standard

09:35:44 <Daniel_Bennett> Chris: What standards is a question to be considered, use open standards only.

Chris Beer: What standards is a question to be considered, use open standards only.

09:35:56 <sandro> chris: If driving by freedom-of-info, then surely privatization is a problem.

Chris Beer: If driving by freedom-of-info, then surely privatization is a problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:36:10 <sandro> chris: what happens if an org/agency doesn't follow it?

Chris Beer: what happens if an org/agency doesn't follow it? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:36:14 <edsu> Chris: great question

Chris Beer: great question [ Scribe Assist by Ed Summers ]

09:36:17 <Daniel_Bennett> ... from Australia. What is the requirements when the law is not followed? What is the enforcement?

... from Australia. What is the requirements when the law is not followed? What is the enforcement?

09:36:39 <sandro> benj: I'm not sure if this bill has the enforcement provision.

Benjamin Kallos: I'm not sure if this bill has the enforcement provision. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:37:06 <Daniel_Bennett> Benjamin: May not have enforcement, but does have reimbursement policy. And then FOIA request will now be free to citizens.

Benjamin Kallos: May not have enforcement, but does have reimbursement policy. And then FOIA request will now be free to citizens.

09:37:08 <sandro> benj: If someone puts in an FOI request for info that should have been on the web, then they must provide it for free.

Benjamin Kallos: If someone puts in an FOI request for info that should have been on the web, then they must provide it for free. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:37:39 <Daniel_Bennett> Chris: If you put up data in way to charge?

Chris Beer: If you put up data in way to charge?

09:37:39 <sandro> chris: If you're putting up a data set, how will you charge for access?    what's a page?

Chris Beer: If you're putting up a data set, how will you charge for access? what's a page? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:38:11 <sandro> benj: Currently the charge is based on the time it takes to burn the CD.   Under the new rule they wouldn't be allowed to charge for it.

Benjamin Kallos: Currently the charge is based on the time it takes to burn the CD. Under the new rule they wouldn't be allowed to charge for it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:38:12 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

09:38:21 <sandro> ack Chris

Sandro Hawke: ack Chris

09:38:23 <sandro> ack rigo

Sandro Hawke: ack rigo

09:38:23 <Zakim> rigo, you wanted to suggest legislation by reference and to specify an exchange format as a minimum standard

Zakim IRC Bot: rigo, you wanted to suggest legislation by reference and to specify an exchange format as a minimum standard

09:38:36 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul: There is already a cost that is based on CDs. It will become free under the new act.

Paul Curtis: There is already a cost that is based on CDs. It will become free under the new act.

09:39:21 <sandro>  unknown: What is the process for the manual -- wiki?   public comments?     process for choosing standards?        human readabilkity of data, sep from machine readabilkity?

Sandro Hawke: unknown: What is the process for the manual -- wiki? public comments? process for choosing standards? human readabilkity of data, sep from machine readabilkity?

09:39:44 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

09:39:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.449.aaaa, Sandro, +1.917.432.aabb, +1.202.731.aacc, edsu, +1.917.570.aadd, +61.4.286.0.aaee, ??P17, Rigo, ??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.202.449.aaaa, Sandro, +1.917.432.aabb, +1.202.731.aacc, edsu, +1.917.570.aadd, +61.4.286.0.aaee, ??P17, Rigo, ??P16

09:40:09 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul: The legislation does provide for consultation with standards bodies.

Paul Curtis: The legislation does provide for consultation with standards bodies.

09:40:30 <sandro> paul: Legislation requires the OST develop the manual; it should be an open consultation process.

Paul Curtis: Legislation requires the OST develop the manual; it should be an open consultation process. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:40:32 <Daniel_Bennett> ... the documentation will be available as part of open records themselves.

... the documentation will be available as part of open records themselves.

09:41:09 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul: We are happy to hear that W3C eGov can be helpful to us.

Paul Curtis: We are happy to hear that W3C eGov can be helpful to us.

09:41:19 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

09:41:29 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

09:41:48 <edsu> zakim, +61.4.286.0.aaee is Chris

Ed Summers: zakim, +61.4.286.0.aaee is Chris

09:41:48 <Zakim> +Chris; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Chris; got it

09:41:58 <sandro> rigo: exchange format and API

Rigo Wenning: exchange format and API [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:42:00 <Daniel_Bennett> Rigo: How much interoperability should you include in the legislation? How do you set an API for translation?

Rigo Wenning: How much interoperability should you include in the legislation? How do you set an API for translation?

09:42:20 <johnlsheridan> q+

John Sheridan: q+

09:43:06 <Zakim> + +1.202.564.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.202.564.aaff

09:43:10 <Daniel_Bennett> ... exchange formats. Governments have developed in-house many standards themselves. I would recommend using W3C for developing the manual.

... exchange formats. Governments have developed in-house many standards themselves. I would recommend using W3C for developing the manual.

09:43:17 <Chris> I agree - legacy information shouldn't be subject to a standard necessarily - you have to draw a line and look forward at some point. Prehaps infophilanthropy could be allowed for legacy information conversion?

Chris Beer: I agree - legacy information shouldn't be subject to a standard necessarily - you have to draw a line and look forward at some point. Prehaps infophilanthropy could be allowed for legacy information conversion?

09:43:35 <sandro> rigo: Consider developing Manual in forum like W3C, with experience balancing stakeholder interest, and managing public review/feedback.      This might be new experience for W3C and Governments, but I think its worthwhile trying.    The platform gives people a different vision, being on the web, with no borders.

Rigo Wenning: Consider developing Manual in forum like W3C, with experience balancing stakeholder interest, and managing public review/feedback. This might be new experience for W3C and Governments, but I think its worthwhile trying. The platform gives people a different vision, being on the web, with no borders. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:43:51 <Daniel_Bennett> Rigo: I would say that use open standards rather than state developed ones.

Rigo Wenning: I would say that use open standards rather than state developed ones.

09:44:18 <sandro> paul: That's why leg. says manual is done in consult with bodies like W3C.     The CIO has to be invoilved, but we want them to be reaching out.

Paul Curtis: That's why leg. says manual is done in consult with bodies like W3C. The CIO has to be invoilved, but we want them to be reaching out. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:44:23 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul: we specifically have the state look to various groups such as W3C.

Paul Curtis: we specifically have the state look to various groups such as W3C.

09:44:23 <rigo> Daniel, it is also W3C wanting to help with the selection

Rigo Wenning: Daniel, it is also W3C wanting to help with the selection

09:44:50 <sandro> benjamin: Two issues:   public comments requirements & W3C, API

Benjamin Kallos: Two issues: public comments requirements & W3C, API [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:44:56 <Daniel_Bennett> Benjamin: We can require hearings.

Benjamin Kallos: We can require hearings.

09:45:12 <sandro> benjamin: We could require new public hearings on manual with some frequency

Benjamin Kallos: We could require new public hearings on manual with some frequency [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:45:35 <sandro> benjamin: Appointment for something like W3C to sit on board?

Benjamin Kallos: Appointment for something like W3C to sit on board? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:45:46 <Daniel_Bennett> ... how many would you recommend? In regards, to looking to other standards bodies, how to do this?

... how many would you recommend? In regards, to looking to other standards bodies, how to do this?

09:45:58 <sandro> benj: Transition away from APIs

Benjamin Kallos: Transition away from APIs [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:46:02 <rigo> q+ to answer

Rigo Wenning: q+ to answer

09:46:06 <Daniel_Bennett> ... we've heard that API's are being moved away from.

... we've heard that API's are being moved away from.

09:46:22 <Chris> q+ to answer/comment

Chris Beer: q+ to answer/comment

09:46:52 <johnlsheridan> +1

John Sheridan: +1

09:47:05 <Daniel_Bennett> Chris: mandate for central portal may be a problem. closer to the people who create the data is better than not.

Sandro Hawke: mandate for central portal may be a problem. closer to the people who create the data is better than not.

09:47:35 <sandro> s/Chris/Sandro/
09:47:42 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul: That is a good point so we looked at citizen perspective. Portal provides simple way to find data.

Paul Curtis: That is a good point so we looked at citizen perspective. Portal provides simple way to find data.

09:47:54 <Daniel_Bennett> sorry

sorry

09:48:15 <sandro> paul: It might be good to allow for decentralization, yes.

Paul Curtis: It might be good to allow for decentralization, yes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:48:38 <sandro> benjamin: just over 10,000 individual agencies in NYC.

Benjamin Kallos: just over 10,000 individual agencies in NYC. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:48:41 <edsu> the web scales quite will :-)

Ed Summers: the web scales quite well :-)

09:48:49 <edsu> s/will/well/
09:49:02 <Daniel_Bennett> Benjamin: we have lots of political jurisdictions and agencies. So centralization of portal crucial with over 10,000 places.

Benjamin Kallos: we have lots of political jurisdictions and agencies. So centralization of portal crucial with over 10,000 places.

09:49:20 <sandro> benjamin: crawling through each of those takes too much work.

Benjamin Kallos: crawling through each of those takes too much work. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:49:48 <edsu> this is where i ask my token feed syndication question :-)

Ed Summers: this is where i ask my token feed syndication question :-)

09:49:51 <sandro> benjamin: proliferaiton of domains is a problem.

Benjamin Kallos: proliferaiton of domains is a problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:50:07 <johnlsheridan> q?

John Sheridan: q?

09:50:08 <sandro> benj: Maybe we should manadate it being in both places

Benjamin Kallos: Maybe we should manadate it being in both places [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:50:11 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q-

09:50:12 <Daniel_Bennett> ... the idea is that the centralization. avoid confusion. perhaps double post.

... the idea is that the centralization. avoid confusion. perhaps double post.

09:50:28 <sandro> paul: Some centralization is important to making it user friendly

Paul Curtis: Some centralization is important to making it user friendly [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:50:57 <rigo> I think distributed system and a central federation of it is not a contradiction in itself

Rigo Wenning: I think distributed system and a central federation of it is not a contradiction in itself

09:51:03 <Daniel_Bennett> Kevin: feedback is that a portal is problem on.

Kevin Novak: feedback is that a portal is problem on.

09:51:06 <sandro> kevin: data.gov is great but what does it mean --- agencies hosting in context of what they;re trying to communicate is incredibly important.

Kevin Novak: data.gov is great but what does it mean --- agencies hosting in context of what they;re trying to communicate is incredibly important. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:51:37 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: Issue with centraliaiton:   centralizing catalog is not the problem.    centralizing the data itself is a problem.

Daniel Bennett: Issue with centraliaiton: centralizing catalog is not the problem. centralizing the data itself is a problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:52:13 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: "Authoritative Data".     You want the org which creates the data to remain close to the data.    Ease, and Authority.

Daniel Bennett: "Authoritative Data". You want the org which creates the data to remain close to the data. Ease, and Authority. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:52:35 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: Local town councils to control citation.

Daniel Bennett: Local town councils to control citation. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:53:30 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: Interop with W3C or other stds body -- hearings?    I'd move away from hearings, but rather: publish manual openly, and have public comment process, where everyone can hear what's going on.

Daniel Bennett: Interop with W3C or other stds body -- hearings? I'd move away from hearings, but rather: publish manual openly, and have public comment process, where everyone can hear what's going on. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:53:52 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: Maybe a wiki, but make sure every portion of the manaul can be cited and blogged about.

Daniel Bennett: Maybe a wiki, but make sure every portion of the manaul can be cited and blogged about. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:54:03 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

09:54:15 <sandro> ack johnlsheridan

Sandro Hawke: ack johnlsheridan

09:54:20 <Daniel_Bennett> thanks Sandro

thanks Sandro

09:54:39 <Zakim> + +1.707.673.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.673.aagg

09:54:43 <Daniel_Bennett> John: data publishing must be distributed

John Sheridan: data publishing must be distributed

09:54:53 <sandro> johnlsheridan: Very impoortant -- dont conflate single-point-of-access with centralized publsihing.     Single point of publications is a disaster.

John Sheridan: Very impoortant -- dont conflate single-point-of-access with centralized publsihing. Single point of publications is a disaster. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:55:10 <Daniel_Bennett> John: single point of access but distributed model of publishing the data.

John Sheridan: single point of access but distributed model of publishing the data.

09:55:13 <sandro> johnlsheridan: for data.gov.uk : distributed model for publication, but central point of access

John Sheridan: for data.gov.uk : distributed model for publication, but central point of access [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:55:36 <sandro> johnlsheridan: How do you specify the standards?       Provide a mechanism for users to much more easily complain.

John Sheridan: How do you specify the standards? Provide a mechanism for users to much more easily complain. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:55:42 <Daniel_Bennett> John: How do you specify the standards? The idea of providing way of complaining.

John Sheridan: How do you specify the standards? The idea of providing way of complaining.

09:56:23 <sandro> johnlsheridan: move beyond FOI.   not just get the data in the format the agency has, but let the user talk about the format they want.    Surface that bottom-up pressure.    Agency says why they chose their format.

John Sheridan: move beyond FOI. not just get the data in the format the agency has, but let the user talk about the format they want. Surface that bottom-up pressure. Agency says why they chose their format. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:56:27 <Daniel_Bennett> John: Have a mechanism for bottom up pressure to create fixes for standards.

John Sheridan: Have a mechanism for bottom up pressure to create fixes for standards.

09:57:03 <Daniel_Bennett> Paul: I like that point. Taking notes.

Paul Curtis: I like that point. Taking notes.

09:57:07 <sandro> johnlsheridan: Somehow try to introduce bottom-up pressure than rely on the CIO to make the right choices.

John Sheridan: Somehow try to introduce bottom-up pressure than rely on the CIO to make the right choices. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:57:38 <sandro> Benj: specific case law -- can I request copies of maps as raster graphics -- required to rehash info

Benjamin Kallos: specific case law -- can I request copies of maps as raster graphics -- required to rehash info [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:57:51 <Owen> In the U.S. the EFOIA Amendments require agencies to take reasonable efforts to make records available in whatever formats they may be requested. http://www.justice.gov/oip/foia_updates/Vol_XVII_4/page2.htm

Owen Ambur: In the U.S. the EFOIA Amendments require agencies to take reasonable efforts to make records available in whatever formats they may be requested. http://www.justice.gov/oip/foia_updates/Vol_XVII_4/page2.htm

09:57:51 <rigo> q?

Rigo Wenning: q?

09:57:58 <sandro> ... if three people request it in XML, then agency is required to use that format?   something like that?

Sandro Hawke: ... if three people request it in XML, then agency is required to use that format? something like that?

09:58:41 <Daniel_Bennett> John: the citizens will explain their reasons for the choice for data standards.

John Sheridan: the citizens will explain their reasons for the choice for data standards.

09:58:45 <sandro> johnlsheridan: Requesters probably have a good reason.     Don't want agency to always be converting data, but maybe they have to at least to seriously look at it.

John Sheridan: Requesters probably have a good reason. Don't want agency to always be converting data, but maybe they have to at least to seriously look at it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:59:40 <sandro>  unknown: conversion between machine formats is easy enough

Sandro Hawke: unknown: conversion between machine formats is easy enough

10:00:00 <Daniel_Bennett> Benjamin: cant you just post around the information in different ways?

Benjamin Kallos: cant you just post around the information in different ways?

10:00:36 <Daniel_Bennett> John: no. without linking the data across the information there is no way to create ways to process.

John Sheridan: no. without linking the data across the information there is no way to create ways to process.

10:00:38 <sandro> johnlsheridan: example -- CSV about contracts, suppliers, and I want to know how much one supplier got, ...   I have a big problem!       CSV doesn't let me to do that.    Then I'd have to push back and ask for RDF, with URI for supplier.

John Sheridan: example -- CSV about contracts, suppliers, and I want to know how much one supplier got, ... I have a big problem! CSV doesn't let me to do that. Then I'd have to push back and ask for RDF, with URI for supplier. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:01:13 <Zakim> - +1.202.564.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.202.564.aaff

10:01:22 <sandro> johnlsheridan: when you want to grab from multiple sources, then you'll be asking for more than CSV, knocking on doors, applying this bottom up pressure.

John Sheridan: when you want to grab from multiple sources, then you'll be asking for more than CSV, knocking on doors, applying this bottom up pressure. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:01:43 <sandro> benj: then how do we make sure those 10,000 agencies use the same same terms.

Benjamin Kallos: then how do we make sure those 10,000 agencies use the same same terms. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:01:51 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: different types of standards.

Daniel Bennett: different types of standards. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:02:04 <Zakim> -??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P16

10:02:07 <Chris> Easy answer - controlled vocabularies, thesaurii and ontologies

Chris Beer: Easy answer - controlled vocabularies, thesaurii and ontologies

10:02:12 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: File formats (plain text), levels (semantics, data validation).

Daniel Bennett: File formats (plain text), levels (semantics, data validation). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:02:45 <rigo> chris, what about uncontrolled ontologies with SW and some kind of social process to converge

Rigo Wenning: chris, what about uncontrolled ontologies with SW and some kind of social process to converge

10:02:48 <Zakim> +??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24

10:03:51 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: John is getting to a crucial explanation.     References.   When you stick data out there, and there's no way to reference it, that's a problem.       Data validation --- what do folks call a bill?    Each org needs a data validation, for what goes into that.       These are not small issues.   So putting the manual up for comment and public input is very important.

Daniel Bennett: John is getting to a crucial explanation. References. When you stick data out there, and there's no way to reference it, that's a problem. Data validation --- what do folks call a bill? Each org needs a data validation, for what goes into that. These are not small issues. So putting the manual up for comment and public input is very important. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:04:18 <Chris> rigo - nice in theory, but in terms of getting 10000 agencies using the same terms for a business function for example - controlled is far easier and simpler to implement

Chris Beer: rigo - nice in theory, but in terms of getting 10000 agencies using the same terms for a business function for example - controlled is far easier and simpler to implement

10:04:21 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: I've been advocating using HTML and RDFa to make this as human readable and accssible as possible.   Don't just assume data is data?

Daniel Bennett: I've been advocating using HTML and RDFa to make this as human readable and accssible as possible. Don't just assume data is data? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:04:24 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

10:04:30 <sandro> ack rigo

Sandro Hawke: ack rigo

10:04:30 <Zakim> -??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P24

10:04:31 <Zakim> rigo, you wanted to answer

Zakim IRC Bot: rigo, you wanted to answer

10:05:06 <sandro> Rigo: central portal is just a representation of your distributed system.

Rigo Wenning: central portal is just a representation of your distributed system. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:05:09 <Daniel_Bennett> Rigo: the central portal is just a view of the distributed data.

Rigo Wenning: the central portal is just a view of the distributed data.

10:05:17 <Daniel_Bennett> irc echo

irc echo

10:05:26 <Daniel_Bennett> jinx

jinx

10:05:55 <sandro> Rigo: how you converge the agencies to follow -- that's a social process -- they want to be seen -- central reprentation provides convegence prressure.    distributed data model doesn't hinder standardization

Rigo Wenning: how you converge the agencies to follow -- that's a social process -- they want to be seen -- central reprentation provides convegence prressure. distributed data model doesn't hinder standardization [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:06:14 <Zakim> +??P26

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26

10:06:17 <Daniel_Bennett> hmmm jinx didnt work

hmmm jinx didnt work

10:06:23 <sandro> Rigo: Would W3C sit in hearings?   I've been in so many in Brussels, Berlin, Washington.      Gov 0.5 version of public scrutiny.

Rigo Wenning: Would W3C sit in hearings? I've been in so many in Brussels, Berlin, Washington. Gov 0.5 version of public scrutiny. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:07:00 <sandro> Rigo: In manual, you can't do without specifying minimum of interchange format, but reference within law.        Some use ODF, some use OOXML, some use homegrown CSV.

Rigo Wenning: In manual, you can't do without specifying minimum of interchange format, but reference within law. Some use ODF, some use OOXML, some use homegrown CSV. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:07:28 <johnlsheridan> I think convergence should be around the use of identifiers rather than specific formats

John Sheridan: I think convergence should be around the use of identifiers rather than specific formats

10:08:32 <sandro> Rigo: for Hearings, "new approach", legislation leaves format spec open, if you chose a platform like W3C or Oasis, but with CONTINUOUS SCRUTINY.    W3C sometimes sits in hearings, but we can't do that with W3C Member funds.    It's peanuts, but it matters.

Rigo Wenning: for Hearings, "new approach", legislation leaves format spec open, if you chose a platform like W3C or Oasis, but with CONTINUOUS SCRUTINY. W3C sometimes sits in hearings, but we can't do that with W3C Member funds. It's peanuts, but it matters. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:08:45 <Daniel_Bennett> yes. and the native identifier on the web are URLs and fragment URLs in XHTML

yes. and the native identifier on the web are URLs and fragment URLs in XHTML

10:08:57 <sandro> Paul: i think this is good, useful feedback.

Paul Curtis: i think this is good, useful feedback. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:09:04 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

10:09:34 <sandro> ack Chris

Sandro Hawke: ack Chris

10:09:34 <Zakim> Chris, you wanted to answer/comment

Zakim IRC Bot: Chris, you wanted to answer/comment

10:10:20 <sandro> Chris: re W3C in hearings -- just watched CSPAN swearing in of someone -- no US court will recognize international law/standards -- W3C is international.

Chris Beer: re W3C in hearings -- just watched CSPAN swearing in of someone -- no US court will recognize international law/standards -- W3C is international. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:10:43 <sandro> Chris: getting agencies talk to each other -- why not mandate common web service.

Chris Beer: getting agencies talk to each other -- why not mandate common web service. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:10:47 <rigo> to Chris: NIST is a member of W3C and may be able to help

Rigo Wenning: to Chris: NIST is a member of W3C and may be able to help

10:11:23 <sandro> Paul: I think we're a couple steps away from that court problem, because it's about consulting.

Paul Curtis: I think we're a couple steps away from that court problem, because it's about consulting. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:11:44 <sandro> Chris: measurement, data formats.

Chris Beer: measurement, data formats. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:12:27 <sandro> Paul: Certain gov't bodies do use metric, eg the military.       I doubt this is likely to be a problem.

Paul Curtis: Certain gov't bodies do use metric, eg the military. I doubt this is likely to be a problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:12:44 <Daniel_Bennett> thanks for your work Paul and Benjamin

thanks for your work Paul and Benjamin

10:12:53 <Chris> Chris: Just examples :)

Chris Beer: Just examples :) [ Scribe Assist by Chris Beer ]

10:13:08 <Zakim> - +1.917.432.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.917.432.aabb

10:13:32 <Zakim> - +1.917.570.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.917.570.aadd

10:14:01 <Zakim> -Rigo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Rigo

10:14:02 <Zakim> - +1.707.673.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.707.673.aagg

10:17:51 <edsu> +1

Ed Summers: +1

<sandro> Topic: Use of .gov outside of US Federal Gov't

2. Use of .gov outside of US Federal Gov't

10:19:19 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: US .gov outside of federal

Daniel Bennett: US .gov outside of federal [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:19:58 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: with country codes not being country codes.....?    authoritative URLS, esp within govt?

Daniel Bennett: with country codes not being country codes.....? authoritative URLS, esp within govt? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:20:11 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

10:22:07 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: once a state did a .com, it all kind of broke down

Daniel Bennett: once a state did a .com, it all kind of broke down [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:22:41 <sandro> kevin: when we did a county, in .us, we got a .org to get better recognition with public.

Kevin Novak: when we did a county, in .us, we got a .org to get better recognition with public. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:23:15 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: what about bit.ly ?   what country controls that!

Daniel Bennett: what about bit.ly ? what country controls that! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:24:09 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: If we're really destroying top-level domains...?     .pol ?

Daniel Bennett: If we're really destroying top-level domains...? .pol ? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:24:37 <sandro> sandro: speaker

Sandro Hawke: speaker [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:24:50 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: SOmeone from ICANN

Daniel Bennett: SOmeone from ICANN [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:25:46 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: someone from GSA who can speak to .gov ?

Daniel Bennett: someone from GSA who can speak to .gov ? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:26:07 <Chris> owl.ly and bit.ly - technically it was assigned by nic.ly in Libya - costs $150 per year

Chris Beer: owl.ly and bit.ly - technically it was assigned by nic.ly in Libya - costs $150 per year

10:26:41 <edsu> Daniel_Bennett: +1 for getting someone from gsa who can talk about http://www.dotgov.gov

Daniel Bennett: +1 for getting someone from gsa who can talk about http://www.dotgov.gov [ Scribe Assist by Ed Summers ]

10:27:44 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: comercial agencies control SSL certs, potentially between govts and the people

Daniel Bennett: comercial agencies control SSL certs, potentially between govts and the people [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:28:28 <sandro> Chris: NATO uses fictional countries for military exercises; maybe we can get one of those.

Chris Beer: NATO uses fictional countries for military exercises; maybe we can get one of those. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:28:35 <sandro> or example.gov

Sandro Hawke: or example.gov

10:30:07 <edsu> seeya!

Ed Summers: seeya!

10:30:09 <Zakim> - +1.202.731.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.202.731.aacc

10:30:10 <Zakim> -??P26

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P26

10:30:12 <Zakim> -edsu

Zakim IRC Bot: -edsu

10:30:15 <Zakim> - +1.202.449.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.202.449.aaaa

10:30:20 <sandro> ADJOURN

Sandro Hawke: ADJOURN

10:30:23 <Zakim> -??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17

10:30:27 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

10:30:31 <Zakim> -Chris

Zakim IRC Bot: -Chris

10:30:33 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended

10:30:35 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.202.449.aaaa, Sandro, +1.917.432.aabb, +1.202.731.aacc, +1.917.570.aadd, edsu, Rigo, Chris, +1.202.564.aaff, +1.707.673.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.202.449.aaaa, Sandro, +1.917.432.aabb, +1.202.731.aacc, +1.917.570.aadd, edsu, Rigo, Chris, +1.202.564.aaff, +1.707.673.aagg



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