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Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 14 August 2015

Agenda
https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20150814
Seen
Annette Greiner, Carlos Laufer, Caroline Burle, Deirdre Lee, Eric Stephan, Ghislain Atemezing, Hadley Beeman, Jeremy Debattista, Joao Almeida, Makx Dekkers, Manuel Carrasco Benitez, Newton Calegari, Peter Winstanley, Phil Archer, Yaso Córdova
Guests
Newton Calegari
Chair
Deirdre Lee
Scribe
Phil Archer, Yaso Córdova
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. to accept minutes of previous meeting http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2015-08-07 link
Topics
12:51:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/14-dwbp-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/14-dwbp-irc

12:51:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 351

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs 351

12:51:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DWBP

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be DWBP

12:51:07 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

12:51:08 <trackbot> Meeting: Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
12:51:08 <trackbot> Date: 14 August 2015
12:52:11 <deirdrelee> present+ deirdrelee

Deirdre Lee: present+ deirdrelee

13:00:18 <hadleybeeman> present+ hadleybeeman

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

Hadley Beeman: present+ hadleybeeman

13:00:28 <phila> present+ phila

Phil Archer: present+ phila

13:00:58 <deirdrelee> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20150814
13:01:03 <deirdrelee> chair: deirdrelee
13:01:03 <deirdrelee> Guest: Newton Calegari
13:01:31 <MTCarrasco> present+

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: present+

13:01:33 <PeterWinstanley> present+ PeterWinstanley

Peter Winstanley: present+ PeterWinstanley

13:01:56 <phila> present+ MTCarrasco

Phil Archer: present+ MTCarrasco

13:04:08 <yaso> present+ yaso

Yaso Córdova: present+ yaso

13:04:41 <annette_g> present+ annette_g

Annette Greiner: present+ annette_g

13:04:52 <deirdrelee> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20150814
13:05:21 <deirdrelee> PROPOSED: to accept minutes of previous meeting http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2015-08-07

PROPOSED: to accept minutes of previous meeting http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2015-08-07

13:05:26 <yaso> +1

Yaso Córdova: +1

13:05:30 <hadleybeeman> +1

Hadley Beeman: +1

13:05:35 <gatemezi> +0 Was not present

Ghislain Atemezing: +0 Was not present

13:05:41 <MTCarrasco> +1

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: +1

13:05:45 <phila> +1

Phil Archer: +1

13:05:48 <annette_g> +1

Annette Greiner: +1

13:05:57 <phila> RESOLVED: to accept minutes of previous meeting http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2015-08-07

RESOLVED: to accept minutes of previous meeting http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2015-08-07

13:06:04 <PeterWinstanley> +1

Peter Winstanley: +1

13:06:14 <phila> scribe: phila

(Scribe set to Phil Archer)

13:06:31 <phila> deirdrelee: Today was meant to be about the DQV but the editors aren't around today

Deirdre Lee: Today was meant to be about the DQV but the editors aren't around today

13:06:37 <phila> regrets+ Antoine

regrets+ Antoine

13:06:43 <phila> regrets+ Bernadette

regrets+ Bernadette

13:06:54 <phila> Topic: Mailing list discussions

1. Mailing list discussions

13:07:16 <deirdrelee> Topic: Enrichment document

2. Enrichment document

13:07:17 <deirdrelee> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/enrichment.html

Deirdre Lee: http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/enrichment.html

13:07:33 <jerdeb> present+ jerdeb

Jeremy Debattista: present+ jerdeb

13:07:39 <phila> deirdrelee: Can you talk about this, Yaso?

Deirdre Lee: Can you talk about this, Yaso?

13:07:58 <phila> yaso: The Enrichment Doc was written by the folks from InWeb and I like it

Yaso Córdova: The Enrichment Doc was written by the folks from InWeb and I like it

13:08:13 <Caroline> Caroline+ Present

Caroline Burle: Caroline+ Present

13:08:20 <phila> ... I'd like everyone to read it. The editors of the UCR could take a look and see if they can extract challenges, as we did for BPs

... I'd like everyone to read it. The editors of the UCR could take a look and see if they can extract challenges, as we did for BPs

13:08:32 <phila> ... and then maybe see what else we should do

... and then maybe see what else we should do

13:08:39 <phila> yaso: I think Phil sent a mail about this

Yaso Córdova: I think Phil sent a mail about this

13:08:42 <phila> phila: (I did)

Phil Archer: (I did)

13:09:02 <laufer> present+ laufer

Carlos Laufer: present+ laufer

13:09:08 <yaso> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2015Aug/0022.html

Yaso Córdova: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2015Aug/0022.html

13:09:32 <phila> yaso: I think we've not had any answers to his mail

Yaso Córdova: I think we've not had any answers to his mail

13:09:49 <phila> ... and then we can perhaps include some BPs that aren't yet included to cover enrichment

... and then we can perhaps include some BPs that aren't yet included to cover enrichment

13:09:52 <deirdrelee> q?

Deirdre Lee: q?

13:10:15 <phila> yaso: And we can use the note as a reference for the UCR

Yaso Córdova: And we can use the note as a reference for the UCR

13:10:19 <phila> q+

q+

13:10:20 <yaso> q?

Yaso Córdova: q?

13:10:23 <hadleybeeman> +1 to yaso

Hadley Beeman: +1 to yaso

13:10:23 <newton> present+ newton

Newton Calegari: present+ newton

13:10:32 <yaso> q?

Yaso Córdova: q?

13:10:41 <yaso> scribe: yaso

(Scribe set to Yaso Córdova)

13:10:49 <deirdrelee> ack phila

Deirdre Lee: ack phila

13:10:59 <yaso> phila: I read the note of data enrichment

Phil Archer: I read the note of data enrichment

13:11:18 <yaso> ... a lot of what is in the document can be included in BPs that are already in the document

... a lot of what is in the document can be included in BPs that are already in the document

13:11:46 <yaso> ... I worry a little bit that we publish the doc as a deliverable

... I worry a little bit that we publish the doc as a deliverable

13:11:51 <ericstephan> present+ ericstephan

Eric Stephan: present+ ericstephan

13:11:51 <yaso> q+

q+

13:12:22 <yaso> ... as I understand if you are a data publisher, being aware of what data enrichment can do is a good thing

... as I understand if you are a data publisher, being aware of what data enrichment can do is a good thing

13:12:45 <laufer> +1 to  phil

Carlos Laufer: +1 to phil

13:12:56 <yaso> ... the extraction techniques are important and being aware of that is nice, but the techniques per se are not business of our group

... the extraction techniques are important and being aware of that is nice, but the techniques per se are not business of our group

13:13:10 <phila> ack yaso

Phil Archer: ack yaso

13:13:13 <yaso> scribe: phila

(Scribe set to Phil Archer)

13:13:30 <MTCarrasco> q+

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: q+

13:13:39 <phila> yaso: Just to say that I wasn't suggesting we publish the Note should be published by the WG. Just that we use the doc as a reference to populate the BP Doc

Yaso Córdova: Just to say that I wasn't suggesting we publish the Note should be published by the WG. Just that we use the doc as a reference to populate the BP Doc

13:13:45 <phila> ... I agree with you, Phil

... I agree with you, Phil

13:13:45 <PeterWinstanley> q+

Peter Winstanley: q+

13:13:55 <phila> ... I suggest we put the Note in the GH repo

... I suggest we put the Note in the GH repo

13:14:05 <phila> ... just register that we used it as a reference

... just register that we used it as a reference

13:14:14 <phila> ... but keep it in the archives

... but keep it in the archives

13:14:16 <yaso> https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/tree/gh-pages/archives

Yaso Córdova: https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/tree/gh-pages/archives

13:14:21 <phila> phila: I'm happy with that yaso

Phil Archer: I'm happy with that yaso

13:14:42 <yaso> ok, great!

Yaso Córdova: ok, great!

13:14:42 <phila> ack next

ack next

13:15:05 <deirdrelee> ack MTCarrasco

Deirdre Lee: ack MTCarrasco

13:15:28 <phila> MTCarrasco: So the question on segmentations etc. This is a whole field. How the data have to be produced and segmented, natural languages etc. is a whole field (I'm familiar with it)

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: So the question on segmentations etc. This is a whole field. How the data have to be produced and segmented, natural languages etc. is a whole field (I'm familiar with it)

13:15:42 <MTCarrasco> http://dragoman.org/laf

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: http://dragoman.org/laf

13:15:44 <phila> MTCarrasco: For non-specialists, it's too light

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: For non-specialists, it's too light

13:16:05 <phila> MTCarrasco: That's what I'm working on for the EU.

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: That's what I'm working on for the EU.

13:16:33 <phila> ... Legislative text is available in 24 languages. It's quite complex - it can't be described in a single doc, let a lone a single paragrpah

... Legislative text is available in 24 languages. It's quite complex - it can't be described in a single doc, let a lone a single paragrpah

13:16:42 <deirdrelee> ack PeterWinstanley

Deirdre Lee: ack PeterWinstanley

13:16:42 <phila> ack PeterWinstanley

ack PeterWinstanley

13:17:04 <phila> PeterWinstanley: Just to pick up on what Phil was saying about scraping.

Peter Winstanley: Just to pick up on what Phil was saying about scraping.

13:17:14 <phila> ... There are times when scraping can be made very challenging

... There are times when scraping can be made very challenging

13:17:37 <yaso> +1 to PeterWinstanley

Yaso Córdova: +1 to PeterWinstanley

13:17:37 <phila> ... getting the message through to people developing websites to make sure that they make them easily accessible by scraping and crawling would be a good thing to do

... getting the message through to people developing websites to make sure that they make them easily accessible by scraping and crawling would be a good thing to do

13:17:38 <phila> q+

q+

13:17:50 <phila> PeterWinstanley: So some pointers to BP and anti-patterns would be helpful I'd say

Peter Winstanley: So some pointers to BP and anti-patterns would be helpful I'd say

13:18:23 <annette_g> q+

Annette Greiner: q+

13:18:30 <phila> deirdrelee: A general comment - how deep are we going to get into this? As Yaso described, do we just take a look at the doc or give specific examples as Tomas said, or what Peter said

Deirdre Lee: A general comment - how deep are we going to get into this? As Yaso described, do we just take a look at the doc or give specific examples as Tomas said, or what Peter said

13:18:39 <deirdrelee> ack phila

Deirdre Lee: ack phila

13:20:43 <deirdrelee> ack annette_g

Deirdre Lee: ack annette_g

13:20:45 <phila> phila: Went on about accessibility and how that can also help scrapers

Phil Archer: Went on about accessibility and how that can also help scrapers

13:20:50 <MTCarrasco> q+

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: q+

13:21:01 <phila> annette_g: I think it's fine to keep the enrichment doc around as a reference

Annette Greiner: I think it's fine to keep the enrichment doc around as a reference

13:21:20 <phila> ... I don't feel it's approptiate to make a WG Note for the reasons discussed in the past

... I don't feel it's approptiate to make a WG Note for the reasons discussed in the past

13:21:46 <phila> annette_g: On a11y, we already have a bunch of working groups on this (WCAG etc.) We have a lot of guidance. This applies to all of the Web, not just our stuff

Annette Greiner: On a11y, we already have a bunch of working groups on this (WCAG etc.) We have a lot of guidance. This applies to all of the Web, not just our stuff

13:21:58 <phila> ... I thinkwe need to keep focussed on publishing data on the Web

... I thinkwe need to keep focussed on publishing data on the Web

13:22:06 <phila> ack MTCarrasco

ack MTCarrasco

13:22:09 <laufer> +1 to annette

Carlos Laufer: +1 to annette

13:22:26 <hadleybeeman> (Guess I should make that not a comment.)  Just reminding everyone that nothing can be a note — or be published by the working group — without consensus. So we'd all have to agree.

Hadley Beeman: (Guess I should make that not a comment.) Just reminding everyone that nothing can be a note — or be published by the working group — without consensus. So we'd all have to agree.

13:22:41 <deirdrelee> q?

Deirdre Lee: q?

13:22:44 <phila> MTCarrasco: The data when published, we put it in the public domain. The site should be designed to obviate the need to scrape

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: The data when published, we put it in the public domain. The site should be designed to obviate the need to scrape

13:22:56 <phila> ... there's a differnece between publishing the data and scraping the data

... there's a differnece between publishing the data and scraping the data

13:23:07 <phila> deirdrelee: Trying to summarise...

Deirdre Lee: Trying to summarise...

13:23:27 <phila> ... While people think there are relevant elements in the enrichment doc, it shouldn't be a formal Note

... While people think there are relevant elements in the enrichment doc, it shouldn't be a formal Note

13:23:34 <phila> ... so we can have a resolution on this.

... so we can have a resolution on this.

13:23:53 <annette_g> q+

Annette Greiner: q+

13:24:04 <MTCarrasco> scraping should be considered it a bad word: means guessing how to get the data

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: scraping should be considered it a bad word: means guessing how to get the data

13:24:08 <deirdrelee> ack annette_g

Deirdre Lee: ack annette_g

13:24:39 <phila> PROPOSED: The Data Enrichment Note be used a bibliographic reference in the WG archives  but not published as a separate WG Note

PROPOSED: The Data Enrichment Note be used a bibliographic reference in the WG archives but not published as a separate WG Note

13:24:41 <PeterWinstanley> yes, ok

Peter Winstanley: yes, ok

13:24:41 <yaso> unmute me

Yaso Córdova: unmute me

13:24:43 <hadleybeeman> I think I agree, MTCarrasco. Well structured/organised/presented data shouldn't need scraping, ideally.  Good goal.

Hadley Beeman: I think I agree, MTCarrasco. Well structured/organised/presented data shouldn't need scraping, ideally. Good goal.

13:24:48 <yaso> q+

Yaso Córdova: q+

13:24:53 <phila> ack yaso ]

ack yaso ]

13:24:57 <phila> ack yaso

ack yaso

13:25:19 <phila> yaso: Just say that I think things like scraping etc. are also important. I know a lot of companies working with this

Yaso Córdova: Just say that I think things like scraping etc. are also important. I know a lot of companies working with this

13:25:23 <annette_g> q+

Annette Greiner: q+

13:25:24 <hadleybeeman> q+

Hadley Beeman: q+

13:25:32 <phila> ... I think we have to mention scraping *somewhere* in the document

... I think we have to mention scraping *somewhere* in the document

13:25:43 <phila> ... We're not talking about specific techniques

... We're not talking about specific techniques

13:25:52 <phila> ... It is a way to get data from the Web

... It is a way to get data from the Web

13:26:26 <phila> deirdrelee: In terms of the proposal, we'll refer to it so elements can eb brought in, but we're not publishing it and saying this is what there is to say on data Enrichment

Deirdre Lee: In terms of the proposal, we'll refer to it so elements can eb brought in, but we're not publishing it and saying this is what there is to say on data Enrichment

13:26:42 <phila> ... So if you think it's necessarto mention scraping, OK, perhaps with a ref to the doc

... So if you think it's necessarto mention scraping, OK, perhaps with a ref to the doc

13:26:44 <phila> ack annette_g

ack annette_g

13:26:58 <MTCarrasco> last resort: +1

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: last resort: +1

13:27:06 <phila> annette_g: I feel like the scraping method is one of last resort. We should be steering people away from that, not toward it

Annette Greiner: I feel like the scraping method is one of last resort. We should be steering people away from that, not toward it

13:27:09 <deirdrelee> q+

Deirdre Lee: q+

13:27:17 <phila> annette_g: It's useful for turning docs into data

Annette Greiner: It's useful for turning docs into data

13:27:20 <phila> ack h

ack h

13:27:23 <phila> +1 to annette_g

+1 to annette_g

13:27:38 <Makx> scraping - we did that in the nineties. didn't work.

Makx Dekkers: scraping - we did that in the nineties. didn't work.

13:27:48 <phila> hadleybeeman: I think scraping is a practical necessity. It's useful, but we should focus on the ideal

Hadley Beeman: I think scraping is a practical necessity. It's useful, but we should focus on the ideal

13:27:57 <MTCarrasco> last resort, pratical necessity: +1

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: last resort, pratical necessity: +1

13:28:06 <PeterWinstanley> I agree with Hadley

Peter Winstanley: I agree with Hadley

13:28:13 <laufer> q+

Carlos Laufer: q+

13:28:13 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> scraping is a worst practice :-)

Joao Almeida: scraping is a worst practice :-)

13:28:35 <phila> q+

q+

13:28:48 <Caroline> q+

Caroline Burle: q+

13:28:49 <annette_g> +1 to Deirdre

Annette Greiner: +1 to Deirdre

13:28:55 <yaso> +1

Yaso Córdova: +1

13:28:57 <phila> ack laufer

ack laufer

13:28:59 <deirdrelee> ack deirdrelee

Deirdre Lee: ack deirdrelee

13:29:25 <phila> laufer: I think we are talking about how to publish data on the Web. We have a lot of ways of gertting data from the Web. Scraping is one way

Carlos Laufer: I think we are talking about how to publish data on the Web. We have a lot of ways of gertting data from the Web. Scraping is one way

13:29:34 <MTCarrasco> In a perfect world all data would be perfectly structured - better dirty data than nothing

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: In a perfect world all data would be perfectly structured - better dirty data than nothing

13:29:44 <phila> ... CSV, PDF are ways of getting data from the Web. Enrichment is when we get something from the Web and want to enrich it

... CSV, PDF are ways of getting data from the Web. Enrichment is when we get something from the Web and want to enrich it

13:29:46 <annette_g> q+

Annette Greiner: q+

13:29:59 <gatemezi> I think this WG is all about fighting against scaping on the Web :)

Ghislain Atemezing: I think this WG is all about fighting against scaping on the Web :)

13:30:11 <deirdrelee> q?

Deirdre Lee: q?

13:30:17 <MTCarrasco> q+

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: q+

13:30:18 <deirdrelee> zakim, close q

Deirdre Lee: zakim, close q

13:30:19 <phila> laufer: We're talking about how to get the data...

Carlos Laufer: We're talking about how to get the data...

13:30:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close q', deirdrelee

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'close q', deirdrelee

13:30:29 <phila> zakim, close the queue

zakim, close the queue

13:30:29 <Zakim> ok, phila, the speaker queue is closed

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, phila, the speaker queue is closed

13:30:38 <phila> ack me

ack me

13:30:43 <phila> http://www.w3.org/2013/share-psi/workshop/krems/report#rewards

http://www.w3.org/2013/share-psi/workshop/krems/report#rewards

13:31:31 <annette_g> q-

Annette Greiner: q-

13:32:15 <phila> ack Caroline

ack Caroline

13:32:45 <phila> Caroline: if we accept this proposal, how should we deal with the data enrichment best practice?

Caroline Burle: if we accept this proposal, how should we deal with the data enrichment best practice?

13:33:01 <phila> ... If it's just a bibliographical ref, how do we handle it

... If it's just a bibliographical ref, how do we handle it

13:33:18 <phila> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#enrichment

http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#enrichment

13:33:26 <phila> deirdrelee: You can ref that doc as you ref any other

Deirdre Lee: You can ref that doc as you ref any other

13:33:37 <phila> phila: It must be a non-nromative ref by the way ;-)

Phil Archer: It must be a non-nromative ref by the way ;-)

13:33:38 <annette_g> q+

Annette Greiner: q+

13:33:45 <phila> zakim, open q

zakim, open q

13:33:45 <Zakim> I don't understand 'open q', phila

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'open q', phila

13:33:48 <MTCarrasco> At the moment of publishing, people responsible  for publishing want well structured data: too late, the production of clean  should start at the moment of authoring

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: At the moment of publishing, people responsible for publishing want well structured data: too late, the production of clean should start at the moment of authoring

13:33:52 <phila> zakim, open queue

zakim, open queue

13:33:52 <Zakim> ok, phila, the speaker queue is open

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, phila, the speaker queue is open

13:33:55 <annette_g> q+

Annette Greiner: q+

13:34:01 <deirdrelee> ack MTCarrasco

Deirdre Lee: ack MTCarrasco

13:34:07 <phila> MTCarrasco: We alsways hear the demand that the data should be clean - but that's too late.

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: We alsways hear the demand that the data should be clean - but that's too late.

13:34:15 <phila> MTCarrasco: Structure must be present from the start

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: Structure must be present from the start

13:34:30 <phila> ... we talk about preparing, publishing and archiving

... we talk about preparing, publishing and archiving

13:34:53 <phila> ... If the process of creating clean data has not been included at the moment of creation, publishing is too late

... If the process of creating clean data has not been included at the moment of creation, publishing is too late

13:35:12 <phila> annette_g: I wanted to suggets that in talking about DE, we could say a lot about adding analysis to the data (not structure).

Annette Greiner: I wanted to suggets that in talking about DE, we could say a lot about adding analysis to the data (not structure).

13:35:34 <phila> ... Things like, if you have an image, being able to point at specific areas of the image (micrographs etc)

... Things like, if you have an image, being able to point at specific areas of the image (micrographs etc)

13:35:49 <phila> ... That's just kind of a subset of what enrichment that can be done

... That's just kind of a subset of what enrichment that can be done

13:36:16 <phila> ... You may want to augment relational data, for e.g.. It's about taking data that is alraedy structured and giving more data

... You may want to augment relational data, for e.g.. It's about taking data that is alraedy structured and giving more data

13:36:29 <deirdrelee> PROPOSED: The Data Enrichment Note be used a bibliographic reference in the WG archives  but not published as a separate WG Note

PROPOSED: The Data Enrichment Note be used a bibliographic reference in the WG archives but not published as a separate WG Note

13:36:29 <phila> phila: i.e. BP 1 - provide metadata :-)

Phil Archer: i.e. BP 1 - provide metadata :-)

13:36:30 <MTCarrasco> data already structured and improve it: +1

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: data already structured and improve it: +1

13:36:38 <phila> deirdrelee: Let's go back gto the proposal

Deirdre Lee: Let's go back gto the proposal

13:37:07 <phila> deirdrelee: How we handle it is a second step. First is

Deirdre Lee: How we handle it is a second step. First is

13:37:07 <phila> PROPOSED: The Data Enrichment Note be used a bibliographic reference in the WG archives  but not published as a separate WG Note

PROPOSED: The Data Enrichment Note be used a bibliographic reference in the WG archives but not published as a separate WG Note

13:37:11 <hadleybeeman> +1

Hadley Beeman: +1

13:37:11 <deirdrelee> +1

Deirdre Lee: +1

13:37:13 <annette_g> +1

Annette Greiner: +1

13:37:15 <phila> +1

+1

13:37:16 <ericstephan> +1

Eric Stephan: +1

13:37:16 <MTCarrasco> 0

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: 0

13:37:18 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> +1 (shoudn't be a note)

Joao Almeida: +1 (shoudn't be a note)

13:37:18 <PeterWinstanley> 0

Peter Winstanley: 0

13:37:18 <Caroline> 0

Caroline Burle: 0

13:37:23 <Makx> 0

Makx Dekkers: 0

13:37:28 <laufer> 0

Carlos Laufer: 0

13:37:37 <Caroline> q+

Caroline Burle: q+

13:37:41 <phila> deirdrelee: So from the 0s - do you think it should be a WG Note?

Deirdre Lee: So from the 0s - do you think it should be a WG Note?

13:37:43 <deirdrelee> ack annette_g

Deirdre Lee: ack annette_g

13:37:47 <phila> ack Caroline

ack Caroline

13:37:48 <yaso> +1

Yaso Córdova: +1

13:38:05 <gatemezi> +0

Ghislain Atemezing: +0

13:38:13 <hadleybeeman> q+ to talk about agendas

Hadley Beeman: q+ to talk about agendas

13:38:17 <annette_g> good point!

Annette Greiner: good point!

13:38:22 <phila> Caroline: We are discussing the doc in the absence of the authors. They're part of the WG and maybe we should give them the chance to speak on this.

Caroline Burle: We are discussing the doc in the absence of the authors. They're part of the WG and maybe we should give them the chance to speak on this.

13:38:23 <laufer> +1 to caroline

Carlos Laufer: +1 to caroline

13:38:36 <phila> ... So I propose that we discuss it next meeting (and I can ask them to be here)

... So I propose that we discuss it next meeting (and I can ask them to be here)

13:38:44 <phila> ... We should hear what they have to say

... We should hear what they have to say

13:38:57 <phila> deirdrelee: So that's why you're voting zero?

Deirdre Lee: So that's why you're voting zero?

13:39:00 <phila> Caroline: yes

Caroline Burle: yes

13:39:01 <laufer> I vote for this same reason

Carlos Laufer: I vote for this same reason

13:39:02 <gatemezi> +1 to Caroline!

Ghislain Atemezing: +1 to Caroline!

13:39:06 <hadleybeeman> q?

Hadley Beeman: q?

13:39:20 <PeterWinstanley> I am not sure .... it's too early to tell

Peter Winstanley: I am not sure .... it's too early to tell

13:39:20 <Makx> my opinion: I have no opinion

Makx Dekkers: my opinion: I have no opinion

13:39:36 <phila> deirdrelee: Ok, we'll leave it at that.

Deirdre Lee: Ok, we'll leave it at that.

13:39:41 <MTCarrasco> I do not really mind one way or another

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: I do not really mind one way or another

13:39:42 <Makx> haven't read it in enough detail

Makx Dekkers: haven't read it in enough detail

13:40:00 <phila> action: burle to invite InWeb team to next week's meeting to discuss why the doc should/shouldn't be a WG Note

ACTION: burle to invite InWeb team to next week's meeting to discuss why the doc should/shouldn't be a WG Note

13:40:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-192 - Invite inweb team to next week's meeting to discuss why the doc should/shouldn't be a wg note [on Caroline Burle - due 2015-08-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-192 - Invite inweb team to next week's meeting to discuss why the doc should/shouldn't be a wg note [on Caroline Burle - due 2015-08-21].

13:40:20 <phila> deirdrelee: Please point them to the minutes from this meeting

Deirdre Lee: Please point them to the minutes from this meeting

13:40:42 <phila> hadleybeeman: I'd like to point out that this has been on the agenda 3 times. The reason we publish the agenda in advance is so people can see if the topics are relevant

Hadley Beeman: I'd like to point out that this has been on the agenda 3 times. The reason we publish the agenda in advance is so people can see if the topics are relevant

13:40:49 <yaso> +1 to hadleybeeman

Yaso Córdova: +1 to hadleybeeman

13:40:51 <phila> ... therefore I suggets the next time will be the last time

... therefore I suggets the next time will be the last time

13:40:52 <laufer> one last chance...

Carlos Laufer: one last chance...

13:41:03 <Caroline> +1 to hadleybeeman

Caroline Burle: +1 to hadleybeeman

13:41:08 <ericstephan> +1 hadleybeeman

Eric Stephan: +1 hadleybeeman

13:41:09 <deirdrelee> q?

Deirdre Lee: q?

13:41:10 <annette_g> +1 to Hadley

Annette Greiner: +1 to Hadley

13:41:11 <laufer> +1

Carlos Laufer: +1

13:41:11 <phila> hadleybeeman: I don't mean to be hard but the process is there so people can turn up if they want to

Hadley Beeman: I don't mean to be hard but the process is there so people can turn up if they want to

13:41:16 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> +1

Joao Almeida: +1

13:41:21 <MTCarrasco> +1 hadleybeeman

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: +1 hadleybeeman

13:41:30 <deirdrelee> ack hadleybeeman

Deirdre Lee: ack hadleybeeman

13:41:30 <Zakim> hadleybeeman, you wanted to talk about agendas

Zakim IRC Bot: hadleybeeman, you wanted to talk about agendas

13:41:31 <phila> deirdrelee: So maybe, Caroline, ask them before the Wednesday chairs' meeting

Deirdre Lee: So maybe, Caroline, ask them before the Wednesday chairs' meeting

13:41:43 <phila> Caroline: I'll contact them v soon

Caroline Burle: I'll contact them v soon

13:41:44 <gatemezi> +1 to hadleybeeman

Ghislain Atemezing: +1 to hadleybeeman

13:42:03 <phila> topic: Sao Paulo face to face

3. Sao Paulo face to face

13:42:06 <deirdrelee> https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Sao_Paulo

Deirdre Lee: https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Sao_Paulo

13:42:12 <gatemezi> Maybe with a note somewhere or link mentioning that information for future discussion

Ghislain Atemezing: Maybe with a note somewhere or link mentioning that information for future discussion

13:42:31 <phila> deirdrelee: For each of hte docs, we already have milestones etc.

Deirdre Lee: For each of hte docs, we already have milestones etc.

13:42:55 <phila> ... so for the f2f, we should have milestones that will have been raeched before we meet and what we want to resolve during the meeting

... so for the f2f, we should have milestones that will have been raeched before we meet and what we want to resolve during the meeting

13:43:07 <phila> deirdrelee: The WG is now in the final stages of its life...

Deirdre Lee: The WG is now in the final stages of its life...

13:43:23 <deirdrelee> q?

Deirdre Lee: q?

13:43:30 <phila> deirdrelee: From a chairs' perspective - what support do you want before the meeting, what do you want to achieve during the meeting?

Deirdre Lee: From a chairs' perspective - what support do you want before the meeting, what do you want to achieve during the meeting?

13:43:42 <phila> [crickets]

[crickets]

13:43:54 <Caroline> +q

Caroline Burle: +q

13:44:10 <yaso> +1 to deirdrelee

Yaso Córdova: +1 to deirdrelee

13:44:10 <phila> deirdrelee: So at this stage, the chairs need to go back to the timelines and see if we're on track

Deirdre Lee: So at this stage, the chairs need to go back to the timelines and see if we're on track

13:44:12 <ericstephan> q+

Eric Stephan: q+

13:44:20 <phila> ... and then draw up a draft agend toi discuss next week

... and then draw up a draft agend toi discuss next week

13:44:23 <deirdrelee> ack Caroline

Deirdre Lee: ack Caroline

13:44:31 <phila> Caroline: We can send an e-mail with a proposal

Caroline Burle: We can send an e-mail with a proposal

13:44:40 <phila> ... I think it's better to do that rather then try and do it now

... I think it's better to do that rather then try and do it now

13:44:51 <phila> deirdrelee: Yep, thank you

Deirdre Lee: Yep, thank you

13:45:28 <phila> ... We need to discuss real detail, fine tuning. More general items should be resolved before then.

... We need to discuss real detail, fine tuning. More general items should be resolved before then.

13:45:38 <phila> ... So all editors should look through the docs and close off general issues

... So all editors should look through the docs and close off general issues

13:45:56 <phila> action: burle to send draft agenda ideas to the chairs

ACTION: burle to send draft agenda ideas to the chairs

13:45:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-193 - Send draft agenda ideas to the chairs [on Caroline Burle - due 2015-08-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-193 - Send draft agenda ideas to the chairs [on Caroline Burle - due 2015-08-21].

13:46:19 <deirdrelee> q+

Deirdre Lee: q+

13:46:20 <phila> action: burle to work through BP doc and see what issues can be resolved before the F2F

ACTION: burle to work through BP doc and see what issues can be resolved before the F2F

13:46:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-194 - Work through bp doc and see what issues can be resolved before the f2f [on Caroline Burle - due 2015-08-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-194 - Work through bp doc and see what issues can be resolved before the f2f [on Caroline Burle - due 2015-08-21].

13:46:23 <deirdrelee> ack ericstephan

Deirdre Lee: ack ericstephan

13:46:52 <phila> ericstephan: there are efforts that are being done on these vocab docs. Do the DUV and DQV need to be integrated/ Connectivity to DCAT?

Eric Stephan: there are efforts that are being done on these vocab docs. Do the DUV and DQV need to be integrated/ Connectivity to DCAT?

13:47:08 <phila> ... There was a comment on the BP doc - why were these not mentioned in the BP doc

... There was a comment on the BP doc - why were these not mentioned in the BP doc

13:47:17 <phila> ... So can we have a telco on those issues?

... So can we have a telco on those issues?

13:47:25 <phila> deirdrelee: Thanks Eric

Deirdre Lee: Thanks Eric

13:47:51 <phila> deirdrelee: Yes, definitely, everything should be on the table now. It's now or ... goodness knows when. So, yes. They need to be resolved.

Deirdre Lee: Yes, definitely, everything should be on the table now. It's now or ... goodness knows when. So, yes. They need to be resolved.

13:48:13 <deirdrelee> q?

Deirdre Lee: q?

13:48:18 <deirdrelee> ack deirdrelee

Deirdre Lee: ack deirdrelee

13:48:24 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> I can't hear anything...

Joao Almeida: I can't hear anything...

13:48:30 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> is it just on my end?

Joao Almeida: is it just on my end?

13:48:51 <phila> deirdrelee: A reminder... we should be closing off - if we're going to next versions of the doc then we need to deal with all comments received on the current versions.

Deirdre Lee: A reminder... we should be closing off - if we're going to next versions of the doc then we need to deal with all comments received on the current versions.

13:48:55 <ericstephan> great point deirdrelee !

Eric Stephan: great point deirdrelee !

13:49:03 <phila> deirdrelee: So a goal for the f2f is that alle xternal feedback has been addressed

Deirdre Lee: So a goal for the f2f is that all external feedback has been addressed

13:49:30 <phila> s/alle xternal/all external/
13:49:40 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> thxx phila, I'll redial

Joao Almeida: thxx phila, I'll redial

13:50:25 <MTCarrasco> URI vs URL

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: URI vs URL

13:50:40 <phila> Topic: URI vs URL

4. URI vs URL

13:50:45 <phila> ack MTCarrasco

ack MTCarrasco

13:51:09 <phila> MTCarrasco: For the simple reason that this is what is recommended, we should just use URI.

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: For the simple reason that this is what is recommended, we should just use URI.

13:51:30 <phila> ... But if we just talk about HTTP URIs those are URLs

... But if we just talk about HTTP URIs those are URLs

13:51:39 <phila> q+ to disagree with MTCarrasco

q+ to disagree with MTCarrasco

13:52:00 <phila> deirdrelee: this topic is - should we use URI or URL in the BP doc

Deirdre Lee: this topic is - should we use URI or URL in the BP doc

13:52:07 <deirdrelee> ack phila

Deirdre Lee: ack phila

13:52:07 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to disagree with MTCarrasco

Zakim IRC Bot: phila, you wanted to disagree with MTCarrasco

13:52:47 <phila> http://philarcher.org/foaf/rdf#me

http://philarcher.org/foaf/rdf#me

13:53:18 <annette_g> It's a URN

Annette Greiner: It's a URN

13:53:33 <laufer> q+

Carlos Laufer: q+

13:54:05 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> URL would have to allow you to RETRIEVE a resource

Joao Almeida: URL would have to allow you to RETRIEVE a resource

13:54:40 <phila> Discussion about whether an ID for a real world thing can be a URL

Discussion about whether an ID for a real world thing can be a URL

13:54:48 <deirdrelee> ack laufer

Deirdre Lee: ack laufer

13:54:57 <phila> laufer: I think we're talking about @@@ URL is a subset of URI

Carlos Laufer: I think we're talking about @@@ URL is a subset of URI

13:55:03 <phila> ... URI is an identification

... URI is an identification

13:55:25 <ericstephan> +1 URL if you are only talking about physical address, URI if you are just talking about a resource identifier (in some cases it might be one in the same)

Eric Stephan: +1 URL if you are only talking about physical address, URI if you are just talking about a resource identifier (in some cases it might be one in the same)

13:55:33 <deirdrelee> q?

Deirdre Lee: q?

13:55:42 <phila> ... when we talk about a locator, we mean URL, but sometimes we need to talk about URIs. Why can't we use them both as appropriate?

... when we talk about a locator, we mean URL, but sometimes we need to talk about URIs. Why can't we use them both as appropriate?

13:55:46 <MTCarrasco> " A Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) is a compact sequence of    characters that identifies an abstract or physical resource." https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: " A Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) is a compact sequence of characters that identifies an abstract or physical resource." https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986

13:55:50 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> URI is the more general term, let's use the more general term!

Joao Almeida: URI is the more general term, let's use the more general term!

13:56:03 <phila> ... I think we have to use the correct term for the specific sentence, not just stick to one throughout

... I think we have to use the correct term for the specific sentence, not just stick to one throughout

13:56:03 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> only when justified, we should use URL

Joao Almeida: only when justified, we should use URL

13:56:14 <deirdrelee> q?

Deirdre Lee: q?

13:56:41 <phila> deirdrelee: We could say that both are fine and it's up to the editors to use the correct one

Deirdre Lee: We could say that both are fine and it's up to the editors to use the correct one

13:56:44 <hadleybeeman> I think context matters

Hadley Beeman: I think context matters

13:56:53 <ericstephan> just use both and be consistent and intentional ?

Eric Stephan: just use both and be consistent and intentional ?

13:56:58 <hadleybeeman> both may be fine — or one or the other, depending on what you're discussing

Hadley Beeman: both may be fine — or one or the other, depending on what you're discussing

13:57:00 <annette_g> q+ to point out that this is not the original issue

Annette Greiner: q+ to point out that this is not the original issue

13:57:12 <hadleybeeman> so... i'd advocate leaving it to the editors/review process

Hadley Beeman: so... i'd advocate leaving it to the editors/review process

13:57:15 <MTCarrasco> q+

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: q+

13:57:16 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> "Future specifications and related documentation should

Joao Almeida: "Future specifications and related documentation should

13:57:17 <JoaoPauloAlmeida>    use the general term "URI" rather than the more restrictive terms

Joao Almeida: use the general term "URI" rather than the more restrictive terms

13:57:18 <JoaoPauloAlmeida>    "URL" and "URN"" from RFC 3986

Joao Almeida: "URL" and "URN"" from RFC 3986

13:57:20 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> q+

Joao Almeida: q+

13:57:28 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986

Joao Almeida: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986

13:57:32 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> see 1.1.3

Joao Almeida: see 1.1.3

13:57:39 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> recommends that we URI is used

Joao Almeida: recommends that we URI is used

13:57:45 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> rather than the more restrictive terms

Joao Almeida: rather than the more restrictive terms

13:57:55 <annette_g> * nods

Annette Greiner: * nods

13:57:59 <deirdrelee> ack annette_g

Deirdre Lee: ack annette_g

13:57:59 <Zakim> annette_g, you wanted to point out that this is not the original issue

Zakim IRC Bot: annette_g, you wanted to point out that this is not the original issue

13:58:02 <deirdrelee> ack MTCarrasco

Deirdre Lee: ack MTCarrasco

13:58:23 <phila> MTCarrasco: I just want to use the term as defined by IETF

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: I just want to use the term as defined by IETF

13:58:25 <deirdrelee> zakim, close the queue

Deirdre Lee: zakim, close the queue

13:58:25 <Zakim> ok, deirdrelee, the speaker queue is closed

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, deirdrelee, the speaker queue is closed

13:58:43 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> exactly my point. Only on very specific cases, we are talking about URLs

Joao Almeida: exactly my point. Only on very specific cases, we are talking about URLs

13:58:56 <phila> MTCarrasco: This RFC recommends that we just use the term URI

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: This RFC recommends that we just use the term URI

13:59:08 <phila> ... Then Phil says we're only concerned with HTTP URIs so I say, OK, use URL

... Then Phil says we're only concerned with HTTP URIs so I say, OK, use URL

13:59:19 <MTCarrasco> " A URI can be further classified as a locator, a name, or both.  The    term "Uniform Resource Locator" (URL) refers to the subset of URIs    that, in addition to identifying a resource, provide a means of    locating the resource by describing its primary access mechanism    (e.g., its network "location"). "

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: " A URI can be further classified as a locator, a name, or both. The term "Uniform Resource Locator" (URL) refers to the subset of URIs that, in addition to identifying a resource, provide a means of locating the resource by describing its primary access mechanism (e.g., its network "location"). "

13:59:29 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> I'm on the queue!

Joao Almeida: I'm on the queue!

13:59:30 <phila> deirdrelee: That sounds like a cue for using either, i.e. use the correct one fo the context

Deirdre Lee: That sounds like a cue for using either, i.e. use the correct one fo the context

13:59:33 <phila> q?

q?

13:59:36 <phila> ack j

ack j

13:59:41 <MTCarrasco> " Future specifications and related documentation should    use the general term "URI" rather than the more restrictive terms    "URL" and "URN""

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: " Future specifications and related documentation should use the general term "URI" rather than the more restrictive terms "URL" and "URN""

14:00:03 <phila> JoaoPauloAlmeida: The same RFC says that using HTTP does not mean that it's a URL

Joao Almeida: The same RFC says that using HTTP does not mean that it's a URL

14:00:21 <MTCarrasco> using http means it is a URL

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: using http means it is a URL

14:00:26 <phila> ... So I would propose to use URI and only in very specific cases, say URL when you're retrieving a resource

... So I would propose to use URI and only in very specific cases, say URL when you're retrieving a resource

14:00:33 <annette_g> ++++++++

Annette Greiner: ++++++++

14:00:42 <phila> JoaoPauloAlmeida: So I'd say use URI and only use URL when it is specifically needed

Joao Almeida: So I'd say use URI and only use URL when it is specifically needed

14:00:43 <annette_g> * oops

Annette Greiner: * oops

14:01:05 <gatemezi> +1 to phila suggestion

Ghislain Atemezing: +1 to phila suggestion

14:01:08 <deirdrelee> PROPOSED: In general URI should be used in the BP doc, but depending on the context, URL may also be used

PROPOSED: In general URI should be used in the BP doc, but depending on the context, URL may also be used

14:01:16 <annette_g> +1

Annette Greiner: +1

14:01:19 <gatemezi> +1

Ghislain Atemezing: +1

14:01:19 <yaso> +1

Yaso Córdova: +1

14:01:19 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> +1

Joao Almeida: +1

14:01:20 <MTCarrasco> -1

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: -1

14:01:26 <laufer> +1

Carlos Laufer: +1

14:01:27 <Makx> +1

Makx Dekkers: +1

14:01:27 <deirdrelee> +1

Deirdre Lee: +1

14:01:28 <phila> +1

+1

14:01:31 <ericstephan> + I is for identifier L is for location

Eric Stephan: + I is for identifier L is for location

14:01:33 <hadleybeeman> 0. I'm not convinced about the "in general" part, but I think this will end up with an outcome that works.

Hadley Beeman: +0. I'm not convinced about the "in general" part, but I think this will end up with an outcome that works.

14:01:43 <jerdeb> +1

Jeremy Debattista: +1

14:01:43 <hadleybeeman> s/0/+0
14:01:52 <Caroline> +0

Caroline Burle: +0

14:02:14 <ericstephan> I'm going to my yurt and consider this discussion further.

Eric Stephan: I'm going to my yurt and consider this discussion further.

14:02:18 <phila> JoaoPauloAlmeida: Maybe Tomas can argue his case again in the ML?

Joao Almeida: Maybe Tomas can argue his case again in the ML?

14:02:25 <MTCarrasco> Agree with the proposal 80%

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: Agree with the proposal 80%

14:02:32 <phila> deirdrelee: We're close to agreement - it depends on the context.

Deirdre Lee: We're close to agreement - it depends on the context.

14:02:43 <deirdrelee> q?

Deirdre Lee: q?

14:02:49 <phila> ... some specific examples of where URI and URL are each correct.

... some specific examples of where URI and URL are each correct.

14:02:54 <phila> deirdrelee: Thanks everyone

Deirdre Lee: Thanks everyone

14:03:02 <phila> ... maybe next week we'll go back to DQV

... maybe next week we'll go back to DQV

14:03:03 <gatemezi> thanks all!

Ghislain Atemezing: thanks all!

14:03:11 <Makx> bye

Makx Dekkers: bye

14:03:12 <ericstephan> bye

Eric Stephan: bye

14:03:12 <yaso> tks for chairing, deirdrelee

Yaso Córdova: tks for chairing, deirdrelee

14:03:12 <laufer> bye all... great  wknd 4all...

Carlos Laufer: bye all... great wknd 4all...

14:03:15 <yaso> bye all

Yaso Córdova: bye all

14:03:15 <JoaoPauloAlmeida> thanks

Joao Almeida: thanks

14:03:17 <jerdeb> bye all!

Jeremy Debattista: bye all!

14:03:18 <MTCarrasco> bye

Manuel Carrasco Benitez: bye

14:03:21 <annette_g> bye, all!

Annette Greiner: bye, all!

14:03:22 <Caroline> bye!

Caroline Burle: bye!

14:11:14 <phila> query? ralph

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

query? ralph



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