Meeting Record

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Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot ←

Tzviya Siegman: "Joseph does a lot of work for ARIA working group on the accessibility API." ←

Tzviya Siegman: "The roles in any of the ARIA document. It's a list of terms with ARIA 1.1. The DPUB we just point to ARIA for the items. We reference navigation which points to the ARIA role... What the API mappings do is say how the accessibility API mapping should utilize this. It functions as the layer between the HTML/SVG/etc and the user. So that's the broad overview of what happens here." ←

Unknown Joseph: "You said it's what interacts between HTML/SVG/user - it's there for the Assistive technologies. It acts as an intermediary between the document and the assistive technology." ←

Tzviya Siegman: "I have an article about how ARIA works. The posted article explains that well. It has the accessibility object model and where the markup language fits in, and where things that aren't ARIA fit in. I recommend reading it." ←

...: "Any accessibility API mappings, they are fairly complicated documents because there is not a specific API - Apple, Microsoft, Linux -- ok Edge, MSAA, and Internet Explorer..." ←

Leonard Rosenthol: but remember that these are platform centric - not generalized ←

Deborah Kaplan: this is the best overview I've seen: https://www.marcozehe.de/2013/09/07/why-accessibility-apis-matter/ ←

Deborah Kaplan: "I posted a URL with a really good roundup of the accessibility APIs - and explains what the browsers and APIs do." ←

Tzviya Siegman: "Here's the link to the AAM. There's role-mapping at the bottom. If you take a look at the roles, there is a section that explains in detail what the API is supposed to do with each one of these roles." ←

Ivan Herman: "When I look at the cells in the table, I'm not sure what it is they say. Can you give a high-level overview of what's happening?" ←

Unknown Joseph: "Using doc-abstract as an example. If you're a browser running on windows, and you're using i-accessable2, you take the string .abstract and it'll be a role-system grouping in the accessibilty tree. We will also store xml:.abstract. It's a property of the accessible object." ←

Unknown Joseph: "An accessible object is a tree-structure in the accessible API. Similar to a DOM element, but not actually in the DOM. So it extracts (subsets) the DOM and creates a new tree item. From there you will have nodes in the new tree that has a role, a name, possibly a description, and a whole bunch of states and attributes." ←

Deborah Kaplan: here's a good link for the accessibility tree: https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/01/the-browser-accessibility-tree/ ←

Unknown Joseph: "If you're using the MS-only apis then they are. There is ATK/ASPI - that's for linux. The last is for Mac OS X. " ←

Unknown Joseph: "If you're running Safari on a mac, then safari creates it's own DOM. It also creates it's own accessibility tree according to AXAPI. It doesn't create the others." ←

Leonard Rosenthol: "The thing you have to keep in mind about the APIs is that they aren't web-specific. They are on the OS level so that everything on the screen is accessible. The Accessibility DOM actually goes beyond the web itself. Only at the end of the tree is the document that you're looking at." ←

Unknown Joseph: "Adding to that - accessbility APIs were invented way before the web. Browsers were initially just documents, and they fit in to the word-processors api." ←

Unknown Joseph: "As web-development got more complex, there was a need to fit things correctly, which is where ARIA comes in." ←

Leonard Rosenthol: "Going back to the content - this looks good - but what strikes me as odd, is why - for 2 of the 4 - the value is doc- and in the others you remove the doc-? Shouldn't it be consistent across APIs" ←

Unknown Joseph: "In the two cases that have XML roles : that's a string. The XMLroles: is not a namespace or a prefix, it's a name. In this case it's a name value pair." ←

Ivan Herman: "Leonards question was not on the XML role it was the naming itself. We use the original term doc-aspect, but we later drop doc-..." ←

Unknown Joseph: "The description is a user-friendly string. Would you say doc-abstract or abstract?" ←

Leonard Rosenthol: it would much better if we could have it consistent for all APIs ←

...: "The UIA one is a piece of data, not really a string. You could actually view it as... So it's saying treat it like a control type abstract." ←

Ivan Herman: "So, we have here, a view of various types of windows, linux, and OSX. What about mobile?" ←

Daniel Weck: doc-biblioref => Control type/role is 'bibliography references' in UIA, so this looks like a human-readable string (or maybe it's an editing error in this spec. document?) ←

Unknown Nick: If I understand it, ARIA creates tags and markup to make HTML doc happily inserted into whatever OS it needs [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ] ←

Karen Myers: …so I need to care about correct ARIA tags, roles,etc. so that whatever OS can do what it needs to do ←

Unknown Nick: Is object model mainly for people creating accessibility applications [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ] ←

Karen Myers: …or is it expected that reading system creates its own accessibility ←

Unknown Joseph: Core is to tell browsers…this is what you are supposed to do with the markup and how you are supposed to expose it within the accesibility API [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ] ←

Ivan Herman: And reading system in this respect is just a browser [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ] ←

Unknown Joseph: can also be used by screen reader vendors to see what is coming out of the browker [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ] ←

Unknown Nick: they are familiar that things are verklempt [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ] ←

Karen Myers: Bill They are not using the original markup but how it has been interpreted into these API schemes ←

Unknown Joseph: That is what they are supposed to be doing [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ] ←

Karen Myers: …to extent that the mapping is complete and accurate the AT should not have to look at the DOM ←

Charles LaPierre: "Quick q: looking at doc-abstrct... we have role-system grouping, but there is none in the acknowledgements. So there's nothing that maps this new role? So now the AT has to look at the new role pair?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown Joseph: "So the AT has to have a map to how to display something." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "There are no roles that do not have a super-class in ARIA 1.1 - a superclass means it's points to a parent. it's better to look at the DPUB roles document." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ivan Herman: "The table - shouldn't it include in the cell whatever the superclass maps to?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "Any implementation needs to look at both documents at the same time?" ←

Tzviya Siegman: " If you look at the ATK roles, they are just strings. In acknowledgements for exmaple, it will say: 'expose role landmark'." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ivan Herman: "I would expect something similar in the first line." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "It's something we have to see with Rich - as he's the one who created these tables. Lets make sure these questions flow back to him." ←

Tzviya Siegman: " Great, and now we have a topic to discuss on the meeting on thursday." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: if you have comments, plesae post to https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues with flag "dpub" ←

Bill Kasdorf: "There are quite a few typos that should be addressed..." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "Additional comments/questions/suggestions..." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Doug Schepers: "I saw you were talking about SVG stuff. Do you have any questions?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: " We were talking about APIs in general - and just noted there is a mapping for SVG" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "Tim followed up with me - which is wonderful. Tim got together with people about archiving." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Tim' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Tim Clark Timothy Cole . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Tim: "This came up in the call 2 weeks ago. we discussed next steps for PWP whitepaper. The question of how to address archiving of these types of structures and what's already being done about archiving came up. Breif discussion came up. We discussed and here's a brief summary from where we are." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "The whitepaper needs to be extended a bit in 3.7 which has placeholder text - possibly 5.2, where it mentions archiving. We wanted to mention Portico and CLOCKSS. It has lots of things that are being archived using those systems. How do the things we wish to do with PWP impact on that." ←

Ivan Herman: -> https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/#libraries-and-archival-services current section in the PWP ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "There are efforts on premise in the library space. There's an ISO standard on arcitle versioning. We need to formulate the questions and get answers. We also need to make sure the PWP document reflects though. There are broader questions: should we strategically engage the parts of the library community that is dealing with archiving. The special library association is dealing with ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: this area - there are preservation coallitions. Do we need to worry about archiving in our testing and demonstrations? Bill/heather - do you have a little more deifintion on what you want to get done?" ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "Do we need a taskforce? if so, how do we get more volunteers. And that's what we'd like a little more clarity on." ←

Leonard Rosenthol: "I'm happy to participate in this group. I'm the ISO project leader on PDF-A - the long-term standard for archiving PDF. What I don't hear is what is meant by archiving? Who's doing it? Longitivity? The things we talk about - and what archivist talk about - is that there are w whole lot of properties and concerns. Can you talk more about the background/goals of archiving a PWP." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "I think that's part of the taskforce is to figure out the goals themselves - the group needs to get going befroe we can answer that." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Tim' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Tim Clark Timothy Cole . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Tim: "we don't want to re-invent what PDF-A has done. For exmaple, there are CSS items that needs to be archived. If there are thousands of documents that use the same versioned CSS archive - do you save that in all documents, or just some." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Leonard Rosenthol: "You need to ask what the requirements are - not the implementation questions. I think Tzviya is right, and take up these questions in a meeting." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Leonard Rosenthol: ivan - depends entirely on what your requirements are, which is why I started there... ←

Ivan Herman: "It would be interesting to know... You said libraries already archive large amounts of epubs. It would be interesting to find out if they have run into technical issues - missing information - from doing so. Even with epub 3.1 or PWP - what should be provided to making archiving easier. It's the question I always repeat - what is missing - from a technical point of view - and what is [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: necessary - for PWP to make the job of archivers easier. If the answer is 'nothing really' then maybe we don't need to do more." ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Tim' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Tim Clark Timothy Cole . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Tim: "The point is, is to take advantage of what is already being done. What are the implications of what we want to do. And how do we adapt?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ivan Herman: "It so happens that in about a month I will have a meeting with the head of the numerical department of bilbiotech national de france, that does archiving on a national level. I will try to ask these questions. Between now and then. That's in January." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ivan Herman: s/bibliotech national/bibliothèque nationale/ (warning: replacement failed) ←

Bill Kasdorf: "What I want from this group is a clear definition of scope. On the one hand there are archiving services - that are sector specific - and have entirely opposite approaches. Then you have national libraries - that also have very active and very different archiving things. On the opposite side of the scale, you have an archive that a publisher would want to create to have a canonical item [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: that they would want to use for the publication. Is our scope all of that, some of that. Are we supposed to point this out?" ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "PDF-A is mainly for publishers to have a canonical items?" ←

Tzviya Siegman: "We're slowly defining exactly what it is..." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Ayla Stein: "I wanted to push back on the 'we can get this done in a week'" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: ...: "Whatever finidng you have between now and january - if you send it to me, that would be helpful" ←

Leonard Rosenthol: "Depends on who you're sending the content to and their purposes. Everybody has different requirements. There are commonalities - but who are we trying to address and why?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Tim' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Tim Clark Timothy Cole . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Tim: "Archives have different levels of re-use (what they saw VS simply saving bit/bytes)" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Leonard Rosenthol: "Thats part of the question - long term vs short-term" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Liam Quin: "We've had a symposium on long-term archiving of documents in the XML world - and we should connect into some of that." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Liam Quin: "Another way to look at versioning - is that if you have two different versions, then you have two documents, which would mean you have two different formats... To document the exact version of every spec, it's an enormous task. If you come back in 50 years and you need to get something that uses javascript working. To see how large it is, you should see what the LOC has had trying to [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Unknown NickRuffilo: get versions of hypercard working that require very specific versions of items working. " ←

Bill Kasdorf: Please sign up for Locators TF: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/locators ←

Bill Kasdorf: "We are bringing up a locators task force - those interested in working on the locators - please add your name to that roster as the starting point." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "Please VOTE in the TAG elections. These are the people who make the high-level architecture decisions. Look at the link I just sent." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Heather' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Heather Flanagan Heather Reid . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Heather: "Did we come to resolution - do we need a taskforce?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "Yes, it seems we need a task-force for archiving." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Tzviya Siegman: "We're meeting for the next two weeks, then take a week off." [ Scribe Assist by Unknown NickRuffilo ] ←

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Tzviya, Charles_LaPierre, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Deborah_Kaplan, Ivan, Tim_Cole, nick_barreto, duga, Karen, Bill_Kasdorf, dauwhe, ←

Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

Minutes of 07 December 2015

1. DPUB Accessibility API mapping

2. archiving