Meeting Record

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14:04:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/21-dpub-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/21-dpub-irc ←

14:04:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←

14:04:31 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be dpub ←

14:04:31 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot ←

14:04:32 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

14:04:32 <trackbot> Date: 21 September 2015

14:04:41 <ivan> zakim, code?

Ivan Herman: zakim, code? ←

14:04:41 <Zakim> I have been told this is WebEx https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m09c698f2da7d2f28d301b85cf2d76b08 with password dpub, dial in 644 278 410

Zakim IRC Bot: I have been told this is WebEx https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m09c698f2da7d2f28d301b85cf2d76b08 with password dpub, dial in 644 278 410 ←

14:11:26 <ivan> Regrets: Julie, Mike_Miller

Scribe problem: the name 'Mike_Miller' does not match any of the 96 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben Holden-Crowther Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Chris Lilley Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm John Shaw Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kasar Masood Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Leonard Rosenthol Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Mia Lipner Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Rajesh Ranjan Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Satoshi Kojima Shane McCarron Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky William McCoy William Mischo

14:11:44 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/60044b021c654e5f98268070bc5c796a@CAR-WNMBP-006.wiley.com

14:12:04 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya

14:19:17 <ivan> Regrets+ Nick

(No events recorded for 14 minutes)

Ivan Herman: Regrets+ Nick ←

14:36:19 <glazou> Present+ glazou

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(No events recorded for 17 minutes)

Unknown glazou: Present+ glazou ←

14:36:31 <glazou> salut ivan

Unknown glazou: salut ivan ←

14:42:56 <ivan> bonjour,

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Ivan Herman: bonjour, ←

14:43:03 <ivan> je suis a un call...

Ivan Herman: je suis a un call... ←

14:43:12 <glazou> np

Unknown glazou: np ←

14:57:00 <Ralph> present+ RalphSwick

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 99 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben Holden-Crowther Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Chris Lilley Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm John Shaw Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kasar Masood Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Leonard Rosenthol Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Mia Lipner Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Rajesh Ranjan Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Satoshi Kojima Shane McCarron Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky William McCoy William Mischo Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(No events recorded for 13 minutes)

Unknown Ralph: present+ RalphSwick ←

14:57:23 <tzviya> present+ TzviyaSiegman

Tzviya Siegman: present+ TzviyaSiegman ←

14:57:26 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe

Dave Cramer: present+ dauwhe ←

14:57:32 <glazou> hi dauwhe :-)

Unknown glazou: hi dauwhe :-) ←

14:57:54 <dauwhe> Bon soir, Daniel!

Dave Cramer: Bon soir, Daniel! ←

14:59:03 <tzviya> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Sep/0138.html

14:59:11 <tzviya> chair: tzviya

14:59:20 <tzviya> scribenick: dauwhe

(Scribe set to Dave Cramer)

14:59:21 <brady_duga> present+ duga

Brady Duga: present+ duga ←

14:59:28 <dkaplan3> present+ Deborah Kaplan

Deborah Kaplan: present+ Deborah Kaplan ←

14:59:32 <dkaplan3> present+ Deborah_Kaplan

Deborah Kaplan: present+ Deborah_Kaplan ←

14:59:43 <mgylling> present+ Markus_Gylling

Markus Gylling: present+ Markus_Gylling ←

15:00:33 <ivan> Present: Ivan

15:00:39 <clapierre> present: Charles

15:00:47 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester

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Unknown bjdmeest: Present+ Ben_De_Meester ←

15:00:52 <ivan> Present+ Ivan

Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ivan: Present+ Ivan ←

15:00:59 <ivan> Present+ Charles

Unknown ivan: Present+ Charles ←

15:01:08 <Karen__> Present+ Karen

Scribe problem: the name 'Karen__' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Karen__: Present+ Karen ←

15:01:13 <ivan> Present+ Ben

Unknown ivan: Present+ Ben ←

15:01:17 <Ralph> present+ glazou, RalphSwick, TzviyaSiegman, dauwhe

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ralph: present+ glazou, RalphSwick, TzviyaSiegman, dauwhe ←

15:01:24 <glazou> Present+ glazou

Scribe problem: the name 'glazou' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown glazou: Present+ glazou ←

15:01:36 <lrosenth> present+ Leonard

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Unknown lrosenth: present+ Leonard ←

15:01:38 <Ralph> present+ Deborah_Kaplan, Markus_Gylling

Unknown Ralph: present+ Deborah_Kaplan, Markus_Gylling ←

15:01:39 <pkra> Present +Peter Krautzberger

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Unknown pkra: Present +Peter Krautzberger ←

15:01:41 <ivan> Present+ Ayla,

Unknown ivan: Present+ Ayla, ←

15:01:54 <astearns> present+ Alan Stearns

Scribe problem: the name 'astearns' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown astearns: present+ Alan Stearns ←

15:01:54 <ivan> Present Leonard

Unknown ivan: Present Leonard ←

15:02:22 <ivan> Present+ John_Pedersen

Unknown ivan: Present+ John_Pedersen ←

15:02:29 <ivan> Present+ Vlad

Unknown ivan: Present+ Vlad ←

15:02:33 <Vlad> present+

Scribe problem: the name 'Vlad' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Vlad: present+ ←

15:02:46 <brady_duga> present+ duga

Scribe problem: the name 'brady_duga' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown brady_duga: present+ duga ←

15:03:06 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe

Scribe problem: the name 'dauwhe' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(Scribe set to Unknown dauwhe)

15:03:09 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/09/14-dpub-minutes.html

Scribe problem: the name 'tzviya' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown tzviya: http://www.w3.org/2015/09/14-dpub-minutes.html ←

15:03:16 <dauwhe> tzviya: first item: approving minutes

Unknown tzviya: first item: approving minutes ←

15:03:22 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Sep/0138.html

15:03:28 <dauwhe> ... any comments on minutes?

... any comments on minutes? ←

15:03:36 <dauwhe> ... minutes approved

... minutes approved ←

15:03:53 <dauwhe> ... we've invited Daniel Glazman to talk about...

... we've invited Daniel Glazman to talk about... ←

15:04:20 <dauwhe> glazou: I am the implentor of a wysiwig editor

Unknown glazou: I am the implentor of a wysiwig editor ←

15:04:28 <dauwhe> ... only native epub2/3 editor

... only native epub2/3 editor ←

15:04:36 <dauwhe> ... which led me to discover some complications in spec

... which led me to discover some complications in spec ←

15:04:46 <dauwhe> ... the very low-level code you have to write to access the package

... the very low-level code you have to write to access the package ←

15:04:48 <pkra> I keep dropping off :(

Unknown pkra: I keep dropping off :( ←

15:04:53 <astearns> http://bluegriffon.org/

Unknown astearns: http://bluegriffon.org/ ←

15:05:07 <dauwhe> ... if you want to add metadata, for example

... if you want to add metadata, for example ←

15:05:17 <dauwhe> ... you have to follow a chain of IDs and IDREFs

... you have to follow a chain of IDs and IDREFs ←

15:05:26 <dauwhe> ... so I want to hide that complexity behind some APIs

... so I want to hide that complexity behind some APIs ←

15:05:28 <tzviya> http://www.bluegriffon-epubedition.com/

Unknown tzviya: http://www.bluegriffon-epubedition.com/ ←

15:05:34 <dauwhe> ... to open, validate, add files to package

... to open, validate, add files to package ←

15:05:45 <dauwhe> ... delete files, change metadata

... delete files, change metadata ←

15:05:56 <dauwhe> ... the code you have to write now to do this is huge

... the code you have to write now to do this is huge ←

15:06:05 <dauwhe> ... and I think this has hindered the adoption of EPUB3

... and I think this has hindered the adoption of EPUB3 ←

15:06:17 <pbelfanti> present+ paul belfanti

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Unknown pbelfanti: present+ paul belfanti ←

15:06:20 <dauwhe> ... if we had an EPUB object model with an open-source object model

... if we had an EPUB object model with an open-source object model ←

15:06:29 <dauwhe> ... and a polyfill

... and a polyfill ←

15:06:44 <dauwhe> ... right now everyone has to implement everything from scratch

... right now everyone has to implement everything from scratch ←

15:06:59 <tzviya> q+

Unknown tzviya: q+ ←

15:06:59 <dauwhe> ... so an object model for epub, or more generally electronic books

... so an object model for epub, or more generally electronic books ←

15:07:02 <dauwhe> ... would be a good thing

... would be a good thing ←

15:07:10 <clapierre> q+

Charles LaPierre: q+ ←

15:07:11 <dauwhe> ... I can elaborate, but this is the summary

... I can elaborate, but this is the summary ←

15:07:15 <lrosenth> qq+

Unknown lrosenth: qq+ ←

15:07:15 <tzviya> ack tzv

Unknown tzviya: ack tzv ←

15:07:16 <dauwhe> tzviya: I have a question

Unknown tzviya: I have a question ←

15:07:18 <lrosenth> q+

Unknown lrosenth: q+ ←

15:07:41 <dauwhe> ... this group has been talking about shifting the digital publication model towards models available on the open web

... this group has been talking about shifting the digital publication model towards models available on the open web ←

15:07:54 <dauwhe> ... are you thinking about EPUB package?

... are you thinking about EPUB package? ←

15:08:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+ Bill_Kasdorf

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_Kasdorf' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: present+ Bill_Kasdorf ←

15:08:09 <dauwhe> glazou: I want something more general

Unknown glazou: I want something more general ←

15:08:26 <dauwhe> ... that would work for HTML in ZIP, for example

... that would work for HTML in ZIP, for example ←

15:08:37 <dauwhe> ... I want to hide the complexity of the package, of epub

... I want to hide the complexity of the package, of epub ←

15:08:49 <dauwhe> ... hide the complexity of *whatever* is implemented

... hide the complexity of *whatever* is implemented ←

15:08:55 <tzviya> q?

Unknown tzviya: q? ←

15:09:04 <dauwhe> ... the object model could be mapped to whatever the implementation is

... the object model could be mapped to whatever the implementation is ←

15:09:08 <tzviya> ack cla

Unknown tzviya: ack cla ←

15:09:11 <dauwhe> tzviya: I like that idea

Unknown tzviya: I like that idea ←

15:09:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1 ←

15:09:25 <dauwhe> clapierre: I was wondering about a11y features of bluegriffon

Charles LaPierre: I was wondering about a11y features of bluegriffon ←

15:09:39 <dauwhe> ... can you add aria-roles and accessibility features

... can you add aria-roles and accessibility features ←

15:09:45 <dauwhe> glazou: yes I can

Unknown glazou: yes I can ←

15:09:48 <tzviya> ack lr

Unknown tzviya: ack lr ←

15:09:59 <dauwhe> lrosenth: I think the idea is very good

Unknown lrosenth: I think the idea is very good ←

15:10:10 <dauwhe> ... especially if it's not package-format-specific

... especially if it's not package-format-specific ←

15:10:16 <dauwhe> ... the question is where's the boundary?

... the question is where's the boundary? ←

15:10:26 <dauwhe> ... is this an API or an object model for any type of publication?

... is this an API or an object model for any type of publication? ←

15:10:31 <dauwhe> ... or just OWP publications?

... or just OWP publications? ←

15:10:38 <dauwhe> ... I'm trying to understand the boundaries

... I'm trying to understand the boundaries ←

15:10:47 <dauwhe> glazou: think of that object model in two layes

Unknown glazou: think of that object model in two layes ←

15:10:53 <dauwhe> ... the first level is the visible API layer

... the first level is the visible API layer ←

15:11:07 <dauwhe> ... the second layer underneath is sthe system layer where you call the guts of the package

... the second layer underneath is sthe system layer where you call the guts of the package ←

15:11:13 <dauwhe> ... my primary goal now is EPUB3

... my primary goal now is EPUB3 ←

15:11:18 <ivan> q+

Unknown ivan: q+ ←

15:11:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to the two layered strategy

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1 to the two layered strategy ←

15:11:30 <dauwhe> ... but that second layer could be different for different implemenations epub2, mobi, whatever

... but that second layer could be different for different implemenations epub2, mobi, whatever ←

15:11:34 <dauwhe> ... it's doable

... it's doable ←

15:12:01 <dauwhe> lrosenth: all the examples you gave are variants of the same thing, for example PDF

Unknown lrosenth: all the examples you gave are variants of the same thing, for example PDF ←

15:12:22 <dauwhe> ... do you envision that same object model could apply to something completely different

... do you envision that same object model could apply to something completely different ←

15:12:36 <dauwhe> ... or does it only apply to OWP resources bundled togehter

... or does it only apply to OWP resources bundled togehter ←

15:12:49 <dauwhe> glazou: I think it could be open to absolutely everything

Unknown glazou: I think it could be open to absolutely everything ←

15:13:09 <dauwhe> ... it's just a question of writing a layer that's between the PDF and the API

... it's just a question of writing a layer that's between the PDF and the API ←

15:13:26 <mgylling> q+

Scribe problem: the name 'mgylling' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown mgylling: q+ ←

15:13:30 <dauwhe> ... in theory, yes.

... in theory, yes. ←

15:13:42 <lrosenth> q+

Unknown lrosenth: q+ ←

15:13:47 <dauwhe> ... the lower level would have to be rewritten for every format you want to reach

... the lower level would have to be rewritten for every format you want to reach ←

15:13:55 <tzviya> ack iv

Unknown tzviya: ack iv ←

15:13:59 <dauwhe> ... think of it as a "publication object model"

... think of it as a "publication object model" ←

15:14:04 <dauwhe> ivan: coming back to epub

Unknown ivan: coming back to epub ←

15:14:31 <dauwhe> ... how does this API deal with other object models, like HTML

... how does this API deal with other object models, like HTML ←

15:14:37 <dauwhe> ... how are these combined?

... how are these combined? ←

15:14:43 <dauwhe> glazou: I don't understand the Q

Unknown glazou: I don't understand the Q ←

15:15:02 <dauwhe> ivan: I understand that from your API I reach a specific resource in the package, for exmaple HTML5

Unknown ivan: I understand that from your API I reach a specific resource in the package, for exmaple HTML5 ←

15:15:13 <dauwhe> ... do you try to parse the HTML with your stuff?

... do you try to parse the HTML with your stuff? ←

15:15:21 <dauwhe> glazou: I've not completely written this

Unknown glazou: I've not completely written this ←

15:15:32 <dauwhe> ... imagine you open a package and get list of resources and fetch one

... imagine you open a package and get list of resources and fetch one ←

15:15:42 <dauwhe> ... if it's HTML, what you retrieve is the HTML DOM

... if it's HTML, what you retrieve is the HTML DOM ←

15:15:54 <dauwhe> ... if you want reach it as a file, you just need another set of API

... if you want reach it as a file, you just need another set of API ←

15:16:12 <dauwhe> ... it's not really a file system

... it's not really a file system ←

15:16:31 <dauwhe> ... the idea is to as soon as you can fall back to existing DOM APIs you do so

... the idea is to as soon as you can fall back to existing DOM APIs you do so ←

15:16:31 <tzviya> ack mg

Unknown tzviya: ack mg ←

15:16:42 <dauwhe> mgylling: just to be clear

Unknown mgylling: just to be clear ←

15:16:52 <dauwhe> ... I thought I heard you say an API for reading and writing

... I thought I heard you say an API for reading and writing ←

15:17:09 <dauwhe> ... this is for reading systems as well as authoring tools?

... this is for reading systems as well as authoring tools? ←

15:17:13 <dauwhe> glazou: absolutely

Unknown glazou: absolutely ←

15:17:21 <dauwhe> ... add stuff, delete stuff, change stuff...

... add stuff, delete stuff, change stuff... ←

15:17:32 <dauwhe> ... thing of all the things you do to a DOM tree

... thing of all the things you do to a DOM tree ←

15:17:45 <dauwhe> ... you should be able to do all those things to a publication package

... you should be able to do all those things to a publication package ←

15:17:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> Also +1 to always referring to what we are talking about as "a publication package."

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Also +1 to always referring to what we are talking about as "a publication package." ←

15:18:00 <dauwhe> mgylling: one issue on the reading side is the Readium foundation

Unknown mgylling: one issue on the reading side is the Readium foundation ←

15:18:05 <dauwhe> ... they have a read-only API

... they have a read-only API ←

15:18:18 <tzviya> ack lr

Unknown tzviya: ack lr ←

15:18:20 <dauwhe> ... would be interesting to compare your proposal to what Readium has

... would be interesting to compare your proposal to what Readium has ←

15:18:34 <dauwhe> lrosenth: focused on a JS-based API model

Unknown lrosenth: focused on a JS-based API model ←

15:18:46 <dauwhe> ... do you think this could extend to a REST model or other languages

... do you think this could extend to a REST model or other languages ←

15:19:01 <dauwhe> glazou: I mentioned JS because this is obvious and immediate usage

Unknown glazou: I mentioned JS because this is obvious and immediate usage ←

15:19:08 <dauwhe> ... clearly JS is not my sole focus

... clearly JS is not my sole focus ←

15:19:15 <dauwhe> ... should be buildable in C++

... should be buildable in C++ ←

15:19:30 <dauwhe> ... a REST API should be possible in an ideal world

... a REST API should be possible in an ideal world ←

15:19:41 <dauwhe> lrosenth: are you designing it around JS or a generic object model?

Unknown lrosenth: are you designing it around JS or a generic object model? ←

15:19:56 <dauwhe> glazou: the latter. I'm writing web IDLs, not JS

Unknown glazou: the latter. I'm writing web IDLs, not JS ←

15:20:33 <dauwhe> ... it's a lot of work but wanted to talk to people before investing lots of time

... it's a lot of work but wanted to talk to people before investing lots of time ←

15:20:49 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is very much in line with what we've been working on lately

Unknown tzviya: this is very much in line with what we've been working on lately ←

15:21:00 <dauwhe> ... like our requirements for packaging web apps

... like our requirements for packaging web apps ←

15:21:07 <dauwhe> ... the concepts work very well together

... the concepts work very well together ←

15:21:14 <dauwhe> ... what the next step is is a good question

... what the next step is is a good question ←

15:21:20 <lrosenth> q+

Unknown lrosenth: q+ ←

15:21:22 <dauwhe> glazou: I started writing web IDLs

Unknown glazou: I started writing web IDLs ←

15:21:28 <dauwhe> ... it's a lot of effort

... it's a lot of effort ←

15:21:38 <dauwhe> ... having a place to discuss this with people would be good

... having a place to discuss this with people would be good ←

15:21:44 <ivan> q+

Unknown ivan: q+ ←

15:21:49 <dauwhe> ... I'm a newcomer to world of dpub

... I'm a newcomer to world of dpub ←

15:21:56 <dauwhe> ... I could miss things, make bad design choice

... I could miss things, make bad design choice ←

15:22:02 <dauwhe> ... having discussion would be good

... having discussion would be good ←

15:22:10 <dauwhe> tzviya: are you on EPUB31 ML?

Unknown tzviya: are you on EPUB31 ML? ←

15:22:12 <dauwhe> glazou: I am

Unknown glazou: I am ←

15:22:18 <Ralph> [I wonder to what extent Markus and other EPUB architects have been thinking of an object model in the background]

Unknown Ralph: [I wonder to what extent Markus and other EPUB architects have been thinking of an object model in the background] ←

15:22:20 <dauwhe> tzviya: we're having this kind of discussion there, too

Unknown tzviya: we're having this kind of discussion there, too ←

15:22:34 <dauwhe> glazou: my problem is that we should go quite fast

Unknown glazou: my problem is that we should go quite fast ←

15:22:45 <dauwhe> ... an OM to be designed should take 18 months max

... an OM to be designed should take 18 months max ←

15:22:51 <dauwhe> ... it will pass quite quickly

... it will pass quite quickly ←

15:22:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> Fast is good for this, because it's foundational for other specs and implementations

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Fast is good for this, because it's foundational for other specs and implementations ←

15:23:10 <dauwhe> ... the more I look at the market the more we're limited by the lack of such a framework on a stable OM

... the more I look at the market the more we're limited by the lack of such a framework on a stable OM ←

15:23:15 <dauwhe> ... I think it's a market enabler

... I think it's a market enabler ←

15:23:18 <tzviya> ack lr

Unknown tzviya: ack lr ←

15:23:27 <dauwhe> lrosenth: I think it's a good idea

Unknown lrosenth: I think it's a good idea ←

15:23:46 <dauwhe> ... my biggest comment would be that this object model needs to align with work on identification

... my biggest comment would be that this object model needs to align with work on identification ←

15:24:06 <dauwhe> ... whatever work we do in this area is done by same group or in close collaboration

... whatever work we do in this area is done by same group or in close collaboration ←

15:24:23 <dauwhe> glazou: my only goal is to make that happen and I'll work with anyone, W3C, IDPF, wherever

Unknown glazou: my only goal is to make that happen and I'll work with anyone, W3C, IDPF, wherever ←

15:24:25 <tzviya> ack iv

Unknown tzviya: ack iv ←

15:24:31 <dauwhe> ivan: putting on w3c hat

Unknown ivan: putting on w3c hat ←

15:24:36 <dauwhe> ... what's next step?

... what's next step? ←

15:24:50 <dauwhe> ... having discussion based on more specific document would be great

... having discussion based on more specific document would be great ←

15:24:57 <dauwhe> ... I think this group is the right forum

... I think this group is the right forum ←

15:25:07 <dauwhe> ... don't want to argue whether it's here or IDPF

... don't want to argue whether it's here or IDPF ←

15:25:11 <dauwhe> glazou: I have a question

Unknown glazou: I have a question ←

15:25:19 <dauwhe> ... this group is not tailored to published specs

... this group is not tailored to published specs ←

15:25:30 <dauwhe> ivan: initial discussion stays informal

Unknown ivan: initial discussion stays informal ←

15:25:40 <dauwhe> ... with new charter we can do proof-of-concept spec

... with new charter we can do proof-of-concept spec ←

15:25:44 <dauwhe> ... but won't be REC

... but won't be REC ←

15:25:56 <dauwhe> ... if it should be REC then we must go down WG route

... if it should be REC then we must go down WG route ←

15:26:08 <dauwhe> ivan: my suggestion would be to write a note publiched by DPUB

Unknown ivan: my suggestion would be to write a note publiched by DPUB ←

15:26:15 <dauwhe> ... explaining why an OM would be good

... explaining why an OM would be good ←

15:26:21 <dauwhe> ... and suggesting ways to reach a REC

... and suggesting ways to reach a REC ←

15:26:33 <dauwhe> ... I think it's a joint effort between IPDF and W3C

... I think it's a joint effort between IDPF and W3C ←

15:26:42 <dauwhe> ... higher-level objects are IDPF

... higher-level objects are IDPF ←

15:26:43 <tzviya> s/IPDF/IDPF

15:26:51 <dauwhe> ... but objects to be retrieved are DOM nodes

... but objects to be retrieved are DOM nodes ←

15:27:04 <dauwhe> ivan: let's not get into "cuisine" of where/how it gets done

Unknown ivan: let's not get into "cuisine" of where/how it gets done ←

15:27:20 <dauwhe> ... tzviya and mgylling are the chairs, they can decide if this is the place to publish a note

... tzviya and mgylling are the chairs, they can decide if this is the place to publish a note ←

15:27:34 <dauwhe> ... I'd go further, and publish a skeleton of the interface

... I'd go further, and publish a skeleton of the interface ←

15:27:46 <mgylling> q+

Unknown mgylling: q+ ←

15:27:52 <dauwhe> ... whatever it is, we'll have to convince people to devote time and energy to a WG

... whatever it is, we'll have to convince people to devote time and energy to a WG ←

15:27:55 <dauwhe> glazou: I can start that

Unknown glazou: I can start that ←

15:28:21 <lrosenth> POM works for me...

Unknown lrosenth: POM works for me... ←

15:28:22 <dauwhe> ... I can start that document, but what would be the title? Publications Object Model?

... I can start that document, but what would be the title? Publications Object Model? ←

15:28:35 <dauwhe> ivan: we've had a hundred-email discussion on terminology

Unknown ivan: we've had a hundred-email discussion on terminology ←

15:28:37 <Ralph> "curated document object model" - cdom ;)

Unknown Ralph: "curated document object model" - cdom ;) ←

15:28:41 <mgylling> q-

Unknown mgylling: q- ←

15:29:02 <dauwhe> tzviya: we haven't talked about portable object model :)

Unknown tzviya: we haven't talked about portable object model :) ←

15:29:09 <dauwhe> mgylling: it's apple not potato

Unknown mgylling: it's apple not potato ←

15:29:13 <glazou> ;-)

Unknown glazou: ;-) ←

15:29:24 <dauwhe> ... I almost forgot

... I almost forgot ←

15:29:30 <dauwhe> ... Ivan covered it

... Ivan covered it ←

15:30:05 <dauwhe> ... we need to get IPDF implementors a way to be involved

... we need to get IPDF implementors a way to be involved ←

15:30:10 <dauwhe> ... maybe it's a CG

... maybe it's a CG ←

15:30:19 <dauwhe> glazou: I have no religion about that

Unknown glazou: I have no religion about that ←

15:30:22 <dauwhe> ... whatever works

... whatever works ←

15:30:25 <dauwhe> ivan: let's not worry

Unknown ivan: let's not worry ←

15:30:35 <dauwhe> ... let's get a document and then see where it goes

... let's get a document and then see where it goes ←

15:30:36 <dauwhe> tzviya: OK

Unknown tzviya: OK ←

15:30:41 <dauwhe> ... we are at the half-hour

... we are at the half-hour ←

15:30:49 <dauwhe> ... we'll try to get something started

... we'll try to get something started ←

15:31:01 <dauwhe> ... we can tie in some loose ends... packaging, glossary, etc

... we can tie in some loose ends... packaging, glossary, etc ←

15:31:11 <dauwhe> ivan: each word is a hundred emails ;)

Unknown ivan: each word is a hundred emails ;) ←

15:31:38 <dauwhe> tzviya: as soon as glazou said publication object model it sounded good

Unknown tzviya: as soon as glazou said publication object model it sounded good ←

15:31:44 <lrosenth> +1 on POM

Unknown lrosenth: +1 on POM ←

15:31:53 <pbelfanti> +1 on POM

Unknown pbelfanti: +1 on POM ←

15:32:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 but I prefer "Publication" to "Publishing"

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1 but I prefer "Publication" to "Publishing" ←

15:32:09 <pbelfanti> As long as we don't get sued by Apple

Unknown pbelfanti: As long as we don't get sued by Apple ←

15:32:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> It is also promoted as a healthy thing a la "POM Wonderful"

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: It is also promoted as a healthy thing a la "POM Wonderful" ←

15:33:03 <dauwhe> tzviya: any more comments?

Unknown tzviya: any more comments? ←

15:33:09 <dauwhe> everyone: silence

Scribe problem: the name 'everyone' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown everyone: silence ←

15:33:15 <dauwhe> tzviya: thanks glazou!

Unknown tzviya: thanks glazou! ←

15:33:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> Seriously I like the pomegranate metaphor because it

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Seriously I like the pomegranate metaphor because it ←

15:33:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> 'because it's a package with lots of little things in it

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: 'because it's a package with lots of little things in it ←

15:33:32 <dauwhe> tzviya: I forgot to introduce my colleage John Peterson

Unknown tzviya: I forgot to introduce my colleage John Pedersen ←

15:33:45 <dauwhe> John_Pedersen: I've been involved in developing our schemas in Wiley

Scribe problem: the name 'John_Pedersen' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown John_Pedersen: I've been involved in developing our schemas in Wiley ←

15:33:47 <tzviya> s/Peterson/Pedersen

15:33:53 <dauwhe> ... we're getting involved in all things digital

... we're getting involved in all things digital ←

15:33:55 <dauwhe> tzviya: OK

Unknown tzviya: OK ←

15:34:06 <dauwhe> ... John is particularly interested in Math

... John is particularly interested in Math ←

15:34:19 <dauwhe> John_Pedersen: it is my background, I was a math professor

Unknown John_Pedersen: it is my background, I was a math professor ←

15:34:28 <dauwhe> tzviya: Peter, we'll turn it over to you

Unknown tzviya: Peter, we'll turn it over to you ←

15:34:35 <dauwhe> pkra: I hope I figured them out :)

Unknown pkra: I hope I figured them out :) ←

15:34:42 <dauwhe> ... where should we start?

... where should we start? ←

15:34:46 <dauwhe> ... should I recap?

... should I recap? ←

15:34:48 <ivan> topic: MathML discussions II

1. MathML discussions II

15:34:48 <dauwhe> mgylling: yes please

Unknown mgylling: yes please ←

15:35:02 <dauwhe> pkra: the most obv. Q is where is this coming from

Unknown pkra: the most obv. Q is where is this coming from ←

15:35:20 <dauwhe> ... most critical one is that browser dev for MathML support has stalled in the past year

... most critical one is that browser dev for MathML support has stalled in the past year ←

15:35:33 <dauwhe> ... has never been driven by browser vendors but by unpaid volunteers

... has never been driven by browser vendors but by unpaid volunteers ←

15:35:38 <dauwhe> ... this is the base problem

... this is the base problem ←

15:35:44 <dauwhe> ... we have MathML but not implemention

... we have MathML but not implemention ←

15:35:53 <dauwhe> ... 2nd problem is MathML is in maintenance mode

... 2nd problem is MathML is in maintenance mode ←

15:35:59 <dauwhe> ... Math WG is up for rechartering

... Math WG is up for rechartering ←

15:36:07 <dauwhe> ... maintenance mode would have some consequesnce

... maintenance mode would have some consequesnce ←

15:36:18 <dauwhe> ... the 3rd issue is new tools for Math on web

... the 3rd issue is new tools for Math on web ←

15:36:25 <dauwhe> ... new features in MathJAX

... new features in MathJAX ←

15:36:42 <dauwhe> ... ability to convert MathML into something that looks good

... ability to convert MathML into something that looks good ←

15:36:44 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2015/09/14-dpub-minutes.html#item01 14-Sep MathML discussion (part 1)

Unknown Ralph: -> http://www.w3.org/2015/09/14-dpub-minutes.html#item01 14-Sep MathML discussion (part 1) ←

15:36:50 <dauwhe> ... pre-render into HTML or SVG

... pre-render into HTML or SVG ←

15:37:02 <dauwhe> ... so you have good rendering but not actual MathML in the page

... so you have good rendering but not actual MathML in the page ←

15:37:23 <dauwhe> ... other tools like ??? that don't even use MathML and go to LaTex days

... other tools like KaTeX that don't even use MathML and go to LaTex days ←

15:37:35 <tzviya> s/???/KaTeX

15:37:36 <dauwhe> ... or tools like PDF.js that just convert something into HTML

... or tools like PDF.js that just convert something into HTML ←

15:37:45 <dauwhe> ... my personal perspective:

... my personal perspective: ←

15:37:58 <dauwhe> ... browser development is not working out

... browser development is not working out ←

15:38:03 <dauwhe> ... we see no interest

... we see no interest ←

15:38:16 <dauwhe> ... this is a huge issue

... this is a huge issue ←

15:38:28 <dauwhe> ... 2nd assumption is how mathml should be realized in browsers

... 2nd assumption is how mathml should be realized in browsers ←

15:38:33 <dauwhe> ... for me that means HTML+CSS

... for me that means HTML+CSS ←

15:38:48 <dauwhe> ... in the aughts it was a black box for rendering

... in the aughts it was a black box for rendering ←

15:38:57 <dauwhe> ... some people think it should be in a separate renderer

... some people think it should be in a separate renderer ←

15:39:17 <dauwhe> ... at end of call last week, Ivan asked what I would do iif I coudl do anything

... at end of call last week, Ivan asked what I would do iif I coudl do anything ←

15:39:30 <dauwhe> ... the key problem is that browser vendors don't care

... the key problem is that browser vendors don't care ←

15:39:37 <dauwhe> ... which has tech and personal connotation

... which has tech and personal connotation ←

15:39:44 <dauwhe> ... they're not involved in Math WG

... they're not involved in Math WG ←

15:39:51 <dauwhe> ... haven't given input to spec

... haven't given input to spec ←

15:40:02 <dauwhe> ... fundamentally there's no interest

... fundamentally there's no interest ←

15:40:10 <dauwhe> ... so we have to make them interested

... so we have to make them interested ←

15:40:19 <dauwhe> ... there are areas that we can make them interested

... there are areas that we can make them interested ←

15:40:28 <dauwhe> ... typographic detail and reliability

... typographic detail and reliability ←

15:40:55 <dauwhe> ... if math layout was implemented you'd get better typography

... if math layout was implemented you'd get better typography ←

15:41:02 <dauwhe> ... odd way to get there

... odd way to get there ←

15:41:07 <dauwhe> ... large areas are shared

... large areas are shared ←

15:41:20 <dauwhe> ... multiscript, sub/superscript and pre/post

... multiscript, sub/superscript and pre/post ←

15:41:27 <dauwhe> ... fancy borders

... fancy borders ←

15:41:35 <dauwhe> ... lots of math is just fancy borders

... lots of math is just fancy borders ←

15:41:43 <dauwhe> ... there's layout and semantics

... there's layout and semantics ←

15:42:01 <dauwhe> ... on layout end, there's interest from Houdini that we might pursue

... on layout end, there's interest from Houdini that we might pursue ←

15:42:16 <dauwhe> ... on the semantic side, there's the big glaring hole of the ARIA spec

... on the semantic side, there's the big glaring hole of the ARIA spec ←

15:42:22 <dauwhe> ... which has just one "Math" role

... which has just one "Math" role ←

15:42:32 <dauwhe> ... and there seems to be some interest from ARIA

... and there seems to be some interest from ARIA ←

15:42:34 <Bert> Present+ Bert

Scribe problem: the name 'Bert' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Bert: Present+ Bert ←

15:42:42 <dauwhe> ... since renderers can't rely on MathML

... since renderers can't rely on MathML ←

15:42:59 <dauwhe> ... you want to expose underlying semantics

... you want to expose underlying semantics ←

15:43:06 <tzviya> q?

Unknown tzviya: q? ←

15:43:09 <dauwhe> ... one more thing

... one more thing ←

15:43:17 <dauwhe> ... ivan asked why browsers don't care

... ivan asked why browsers don't care ←

15:43:25 <dauwhe> ... mathml is a top-down solution

... mathml is a top-down solution ←

15:43:53 <lrosenth> q+

Unknown lrosenth: q+ ←

15:43:55 <dauwhe> ... it assumes you want to solve fundamental problems before you want to help your layout along

... it assumes you want to solve fundamental problems before you want to help your layout along ←

15:43:57 <tzviya> ack lr

Unknown tzviya: ack lr ←

15:44:17 <dauwhe> lrosenth: are you suggesting that ARIA would be the direction to apply semantics to math rather than many other directions?

Unknown lrosenth: are you suggesting that ARIA would be the direction to apply semantics to math rather than many other directions? ←

15:44:20 <dauwhe> ... why ARIA?

... why ARIA? ←

15:44:34 <dauwhe> pkra: I'm not sure if ARIA is the right direction

Unknown pkra: I'm not sure if ARIA is the right direction ←

15:44:43 <dauwhe> ... with the tools I use for math on the web

... with the tools I use for math on the web ←

15:45:30 <dauwhe> ... you can't use the endroot element and use clever CSS, you must use dom injection to build layout around it

... you can't use the endroot element and use clever CSS, you must use dom injection to build layout around it ←

15:45:59 <dauwhe> ... feels similar where you want to build button but you can't use button element, but must use ARIA role="button"

... feels similar where you want to build button but you can't use button element, but must use ARIA role="button" ←

15:46:09 <dauwhe> ... I"m not talking about detailed semantics

... I"m not talking about detailed semantics ←

15:46:20 <dauwhe> ... but I think there's low-hanging fruit to help a11y

... but I think there's low-hanging fruit to help a11y ←

15:46:25 <ivan> q+

Unknown ivan: q+ ←

15:46:29 <lrosenth> q+

Unknown lrosenth: q+ ←

15:46:29 <dauwhe> ... like presentation MathML-level semantics

... like presentation MathML-level semantics ←

15:46:30 <tzviya> ack iv

Unknown tzviya: ack iv ←

15:46:42 <dauwhe> ivan: I'd come back to presentation side

Unknown ivan: I'd come back to presentation side ←

15:46:51 <dauwhe> ... I'm not really clear on the direction you want to propose

... I'm not really clear on the direction you want to propose ←

15:47:07 <dauwhe> ... current approach is that I put in my HTML5 some MathML markup

... current approach is that I put in my HTML5 some MathML markup ←

15:47:20 <dauwhe> ... the script just catch this stuff then does complex JS rendering

... the script just catch this stuff then does complex JS rendering ←

15:47:24 <dauwhe> ... is that correct

... is that correct ←

15:47:27 <dauwhe> pkra: yes

Unknown pkra: yes ←

15:47:42 <dauwhe> ... I see a strong move towards doing the JS on the server rather than the client

... I see a strong move towards doing the JS on the server rather than the client ←

15:47:53 <dauwhe> ivan: there's a move to do all that on the server

Unknown ivan: there's a move to do all that on the server ←

15:48:07 <dauwhe> ... take that element and turn it into clever html and CSS, and that's all my client sees

... take that element and turn it into clever html and CSS, and that's all my client sees ←

15:48:13 <dauwhe> ... is that what you're proposing?

... is that what you're proposing? ←

15:48:18 <dauwhe> pkra: it's what we're facing

Unknown pkra: it's what we're facing ←

15:48:45 <dauwhe> ... developers are eager to not do MathML rendering on client

... developers are eager to not do MathML rendering on client ←

15:49:17 <dauwhe> ivan: that means if I am a random user who writes HTML with math then I have to run it through a special server

Unknown ivan: that means if I am a random user who writes HTML with math then I have to run it through a special server ←

15:49:25 <tzviya> q?

Unknown tzviya: q? ←

15:49:27 <dauwhe> pkra: it's not like the client side is going away but you can do both

Unknown pkra: it's not like the client side is going away but you can do both ←

15:49:36 <dauwhe> ... professionals can use the complex solution

... professionals can use the complex solution ←

15:49:58 <dauwhe> ... there are people that throw markdown on their web page and have JS convert it on the fly

... there are people that throw markdown on their web page and have JS convert it on the fly ←

15:50:09 <dauwhe> ... but we'll see more and more poeple doing it on server

... but we'll see more and more poeple doing it on server ←

15:50:17 <dauwhe> ... but then you disconnect the MathML from the output

... but then you disconnect the MathML from the output ←

15:50:24 <dauwhe> ivan: that's where ARIA would come in

Unknown ivan: that's where ARIA would come in ←

15:50:27 <dauwhe> pkra: yes

Unknown pkra: yes ←

15:50:45 <dauwhe> ... right now you could just put MathML beside rendering and hide it

... right now you could just put MathML beside rendering and hide it ←

15:50:52 <dauwhe> ... you want to expose MathML to AT

... you want to expose MathML to AT ←

15:51:00 <tzviya> q?

Unknown tzviya: q? ←

15:51:07 <dauwhe> ... now you have AT content not connected to visual

... now you have AT content not connected to visual ←

15:51:16 <dauwhe> ivan: still concerned about client side

Unknown ivan: still concerned about client side ←

15:51:30 <dauwhe> ... they use the term "polyfill" as the tool that solves every misery of the world

... they use the term "polyfill" as the tool that solves every misery of the world ←

15:51:56 <dauwhe> ... last time you remarked that MathJax? is not good at polyfilling

... last time you remarked that MathJax? is not good at polyfilling ←

15:52:13 <dauwhe> pkra: MathJax is not a pollyfill in the modern sense

Unknown pkra: MathJax is not a pollyfill in the modern sense ←

15:52:39 <dauwhe> ... a polyfill should be as similar to a native implementaiton as possible

... a polyfill should be as similar to a native implementaiton as possible ←

15:52:48 <dauwhe> ... and lay the basis for the native implementation

... and lay the basis for the native implementation ←

15:52:53 <dauwhe> ... for example, picturefill

... for example, picturefill ←

15:53:04 <dauwhe> ... you develop spec alongside polyfill

... you develop spec alongside polyfill ←

15:53:12 <dauwhe> ... with MathML you could imagine this

... with MathML you could imagine this ←

15:53:25 <dauwhe> ... you could write a polyfill that creates custom elements etc

... you could write a polyfill that creates custom elements etc ←

15:53:52 <dauwhe> ... make complicated custom element structure

... make complicated custom element structure ←

15:53:55 <dauwhe> ... we don't work that way

... we don't work that way ←

15:54:06 <dauwhe> ... it seems like a difficult process for performance

... it seems like a difficult process for performance ←

15:54:22 <dauwhe> ... you don't want to expose any APIs but the DOM

... you don't want to expose any APIs but the DOM ←

15:54:42 <dauwhe> ... you would expect dev to manipulate DOM as if it was a normal MathML implemenation

... you would expect dev to manipulate DOM as if it was a normal MathML implemenation ←

15:54:45 <tzviya> q?

Unknown tzviya: q? ←

15:54:46 <dauwhe> ... but no one is doing that

... but no one is doing that ←

15:55:01 <dauwhe> ivan: You don't think there would be interest?

Unknown ivan: You don't think there would be interest? ←

15:55:10 <dauwhe> pkra: I don't think it will solve the core problems

Unknown pkra: I don't think it will solve the core problems ←

15:55:16 <lrosenth> waiting for Ivan to finish up on the client discussion…

Unknown lrosenth: waiting for Ivan to finish up on the client discussion… ←

15:55:21 <dauwhe> ... it wouldn't solve layout, just shove it into shadow DOM

... it wouldn't solve layout, just shove it into shadow DOM ←

15:55:30 <dauwhe> ... it wouldn't show us a way towards native

... it wouldn't show us a way towards native ←

15:55:37 <dauwhe> ... make it easier for browsers to ignore

... make it easier for browsers to ignore ←

15:55:48 <dauwhe> ... third, it doesn't solve any of the non-JS problems

... third, it doesn't solve any of the non-JS problems ←

15:55:54 <dauwhe> ... since web components require JS

... since web components require JS ←

15:55:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: is there a solution?

Unknown tzviya: is there a solution? ←

15:56:11 <Ayla_Stein> need to run to a meeting, thanks!

Scribe problem: the name 'Ayla_Stein' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ayla_Stein: need to run to a meeting, thanks! ←

15:56:16 <dauwhe> ... it sounds like we're saying there are a lot of different bad solutions

... it sounds like we're saying there are a lot of different bad solutions ←

15:56:29 <dauwhe> pkra: we're not a polyfill because web components aren't yet availabe

Unknown pkra: we're not a polyfill because web components aren't yet availabe ←

15:56:37 <dauwhe> ... we've decided to ignore this

... we've decided to ignore this ←

15:56:48 <dauwhe> ... because the real problem is to render in HTML and CSS

... because the real problem is to render in HTML and CSS ←

15:57:09 <dauwhe> ... let's bridge the gap and get the rendering to be easier

... let's bridge the gap and get the rendering to be easier ←

15:57:16 <dauwhe> ... have more of it done by native

... have more of it done by native ←

15:57:21 <dauwhe> ... make this usable to AT

... make this usable to AT ←

15:57:29 <dauwhe> ... have a way of exposing semantics

... have a way of exposing semantics ←

15:57:51 <dauwhe> ... it's like grid before grid layout, or flex before flexbox

... it's like grid before grid layout, or flex before flexbox ←

15:57:59 <dauwhe> ... we need new stuff to make this possible

... we need new stuff to make this possible ←

15:58:11 <tzviya> ack lr

Unknown tzviya: ack lr ←

15:58:15 <dauwhe> ... just a personal opinion

... just a personal opinion ←

15:58:24 <dauwhe> lrosenth: that makes perfect sense

Unknown lrosenth: that makes perfect sense ←

15:58:38 <dauwhe> ... my concern is that I don't want us to lose the semantics

... my concern is that I don't want us to lose the semantics ←

15:58:47 <dauwhe> ... or redo the syntax for different people

... or redo the syntax for different people ←

15:58:55 <dauwhe> ... AT knows how to deal with MathML

... AT knows how to deal with MathML ←

15:59:04 <dauwhe> ... but layout doesn't know how to deal with MathML

... but layout doesn't know how to deal with MathML ←

15:59:19 <dauwhe> ... so let's not throw away the existing work in order to make browser vendors happy

... so let's not throw away the existing work in order to make browser vendors happy ←

15:59:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: to flip that

Unknown tzviya: to flip that ←

15:59:29 <dauwhe> ...it's used on back end now

...it's used on back end now ←

15:59:36 <dauwhe> ... it's used in processing

... it's used in processing ←

15:59:46 <dauwhe> ... how a11y is it in real world?

... how a11y is it in real world? ←

15:59:59 <dauwhe> ... if the browsers aren't using it, how used is it, really?

... if the browsers aren't using it, how used is it, really? ←

16:00:22 <dauwhe> ... maybe not scrapping mathml but building on it

... maybe not scrapping mathml but building on it ←

16:00:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> the company I work for creates thousands of MathML expressions daily. It is used a LOT, just not in browsers.

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: the company I work for creates thousands of MathML expressions daily. It is used a LOT, just not in browsers. ←

16:00:40 <dauwhe> lrosenth: you need all groups in the room--AT, renderers, semantics

Unknown lrosenth: you need all groups in the room--AT, renderers, semantics ←

16:00:49 <dauwhe> ivan: this has been tried and failed for the last twenty years

Unknown ivan: this has been tried and failed for the last twenty years ←

16:01:02 <pkra> I could go on ...

Unknown pkra: I could go on ... ←

16:01:04 <dauwhe> tzviya: at least ARIA has browsers and AT vendors in the same room

Unknown tzviya: at least ARIA has browsers and AT vendors in the same room ←

16:01:12 <tzviya> q?

Unknown tzviya: q? ←

16:01:30 <dauwhe> tzviya: we're not talking about scrapping MathML

Unknown tzviya: we're not talking about scrapping MathML ←

16:01:38 <dauwhe> ivan: the question for me

Unknown ivan: the question for me ←

16:01:54 <dauwhe> ... do we have to modify mathml to make this server-side processing more streamlined?

... do we have to modify mathml to make this server-side processing more streamlined? ←

16:02:09 <pkra> +1 to dauwhe

Unknown pkra: +1 to dauwhe ←

16:02:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: we're over time here

Unknown tzviya: we're over time here ←

16:02:20 <dauwhe> ... we'll talk to y'all next week

... we'll talk to y'all next week ←

16:02:27 <dauwhe> all: beep beep beep

Scribe problem: the name 'all' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Charles LaPierre Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown all: beep beep beep ←

16:03:15 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown ivan: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

16:03:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/21-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/21-dpub-minutes.html ivan ←

16:03:47 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon

Unknown ivan: trackbot, end telcon ←

16:03:47 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←

16:03:47 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been resets, the, list, Ben, glazou, RalphSwick, TzviyaSiegman, dauwhe, Leonard, Deborah_Kaplan, Markus_Gylling, Ayla, Alan, Stearns,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been resets, the, list, Ben, glazou, RalphSwick, TzviyaSiegman, dauwhe, Leonard, Deborah_Kaplan, Markus_Gylling, Ayla, Alan, Stearns, ←

16:03:50 <Zakim> ... John_Pedersen, Vlad, duga, paul, belfanti, Bill_Kasdorf, Bert

Zakim IRC Bot: ... John_Pedersen, Vlad, duga, paul, belfanti, Bill_Kasdorf, Bert ←

16:03:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←

16:03:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/21-dpub-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/21-dpub-minutes.html trackbot ←

16:03:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←

16:03:56 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←

Formatted by CommonScribe