Meeting Record

DPUB IG F2F, 2015-06-26

Minutes of 26 May 2015

Agenda

https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details

Seen

Alan Stearns, Bill Kasdorf, Brady Duga, Charles LaPierre, Dave Cramer, Deborah Kaplan, Heather Flanagan, Ivan Herman, Jeff Xu, Johannes Wilm, Julie Morris, Karen Myers, Markus Gylling, Patrick Keating, Paul Belfanti, Robin Berjon, Tzviya Siegman, Unknown NickRuffilo, Unknown Ralph, Unknown Rick_Johnson

Chair

Markus Gylling

Scribe

Karen Myers, Unknown NickRuffilo, Tzviya Siegman, Markus Gylling, Dave Cramer

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

None.

Topics

Packaging for the Web
Identifiers
Pagination, Styling
Accessibility
education and outreach
Education & Outreach
rechartering

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12:54:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-irc ←

12:54:34 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, set log public ←

12:54:57 <ivan> meeting: DPUB IG F2F, 2015-06-26

12:55:08 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya, Markus

12:55:25 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details

12:55:34 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details

Ivan Herman: ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details ←

12:55:48 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

12:55:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan ←

13:06:42 <tzviya> present+ Karen

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Karen ←

13:06:47 <tzviya> present+ Brady

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Brady ←

13:06:58 <tzviya> present+ Bill_Kasdorf

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Bill_Kasdorf ←

13:07:13 <tzviya> present+ Clappiere

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Clappiere ←

13:07:19 <tzviya> present+ dkaplan

Tzviya Siegman: present+ dkaplan ←

13:07:30 <tzviya> present+ patrickKeating

Tzviya Siegman: present+ patrickKeating ←

13:07:44 <tzviya> present+ georgeKerscher

Tzviya Siegman: present+ georgeKerscher ←

13:08:19 <tzviya> present+ PatrickJohnston

Tzviya Siegman: present+ PatrickJohnston ←

13:08:35 <tzviya> present+ RalphSwick

Tzviya Siegman: present+ RalphSwick ←

13:08:50 <dauwhe> present+ Dave_Cramer

Dave Cramer: present+ Dave_Cramer ←

13:09:07 <tzviya> present+ MarkusGylling

Tzviya Siegman: present+ MarkusGylling ←

13:09:26 <tzviya> present+ IvanHerman

Tzviya Siegman: present+ IvanHerman ←

13:09:38 <tzviya> present+ RickJohnson

Tzviya Siegman: present+ RickJohnson ←

13:09:45 <tzviya> present+ TzviyaSiegman

Tzviya Siegman: present+ TzviyaSiegman ←

13:09:57 <tzviya> present+ HeatherFlanagan

Tzviya Siegman: present+ HeatherFlanagan ←

13:10:07 <tzviya> zakim, who is here?

Tzviya Siegman: zakim, who is here? ←

13:10:07 <Zakim> sorry, tzviya, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tzviya, I don't know what conference this is ←

13:10:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see HeatherF, clapierre, tzviya, dauwhe, Karen, Zakim, mgylling, RRSAgent, ivan, liam, iank, plinss, astearns, mihnea_____, rego, dkaplan3_, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see HeatherF, clapierre, tzviya, dauwhe, Karen, Zakim, mgylling, RRSAgent, ivan, liam, iank, plinss, astearns, mihnea_____, rego, dkaplan3_, trackbot ←

13:11:25 <tzviya> present+ nickRuffilo

Tzviya Siegman: present+ nickRuffilo ←

13:13:02 <Karen> Scribenick: Karen

(Scribe set to Karen Myers)

13:13:15 <Karen> Topic: Packaging for the Web

1. Packaging for the Web

13:13:30 <Karen> Tzviya: There are a lot of slides, we are looking for feedback from you today

Tzviya Siegman: There are a lot of slides, we are looking for feedback from you today ←

13:13:38 <Karen> …You have heard us talk a lot about packaging

...You have heard us talk a lot about packaging ←

13:13:41 <Karen> …what is it?

...what is it? ←

13:13:50 <Karen> [slide 2]

[slide 2] ←

13:14:05 <Karen> [Tzviya reads definition]

[Tzviya reads definition] ←

13:14:45 <Karen> [pause for AV adjustment]

[pause for AV adjustment] ←

13:15:23 <Karen> …packaging mechanisms offer efficiencies and improved user interface

...packaging mechanisms offer efficiencies and improved user interface ←

13:15:35 <Karen> …I put together basic criteria and would like feedback

...I put together basic criteria and would like feedback ←

13:15:48 <brady_duga> q+

Brady Duga: q+ ←

13:16:03 <Karen> Deb: You did not include video

Deborah Kaplan: You did not include streamability ←

13:16:24 <Karen> Tzviya: yes, that's right

Tzviya Siegman: yes, that's right ←

13:16:54 <Karen> Ivan: Nobody on phone for the time being

Ivan Herman: Nobody on phone for the time being ←

13:16:56 <dkaplan3_> s/video/streamability

13:16:57 <dauwhe> s/video/streamability/

13:17:12 <Karen> [slide 3]

[slide 3] ←

13:17:29 <Karen> …these are the requirements I put together and curious to know if I left anything out

...these are the requirements I put together and curious to know if I left anything out ←

13:17:47 <brady_duga> q-

Brady Duga: q- ←

13:17:49 <Karen> Deborah mentioned streamability which I used to think was part of it, but not

Deborah mentioned streamability which I used to think was part of it, but not ←

13:17:51 <dauwhe> q+

Dave Cramer: q+ ←

13:18:02 <Karen> Nick: How does a package feel about being incomplete

Scribe problem: the name 'Nick' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Nick: How does a package feel about being incomplete ←

13:18:13 <Karen> …should it be complete to be considered; someone extracts someone from EPUB

...should it be complete to be considered; someone extracts someone from EPUB ←

13:18:18 <Karen> …so open file, and not there

...so open file, and not there ←

13:18:24 <mgylling> q+

Markus Gylling: q+ ←

13:18:25 <Karen> Bill: set of minimum requirements?

Bill Kasdorf: set of minimum requirements? ←

13:18:30 <Karen> Tzviya: Scope statement?

Tzviya Siegman: Scope statement? ←

13:18:35 <Karen> Nick: yes, basic file points to OPF

Unknown Nick: yes, basic file points to OPF ←

13:18:49 <Karen> …declared it should be within this package so then it's not complete

...declared it should be within this package so then it's not complete ←

13:19:04 <Karen> Tzviya: either a manifest or @ being missins

Tzviya Siegman: either a manifest or @ being missins ←

13:19:19 <Karen> Nick: anything required by reader system or has been defined by those required files; two tiers

Unknown Nick: anything required by reader system or has been defined by those required files; two tiers ←

13:19:28 <Karen> Tzviya: What is the purpose of having an incomplete package?

Tzviya Siegman: What is the purpose of having an incomplete package? ←

13:19:42 <Karen> …perhaps not having a complete book, but I have defined my table of contents

...perhaps not having a complete book, but I have defined my table of contents ←

13:19:53 <Karen> …i don't see much value, but maybe someone has another perspective

...i don't see much value, but maybe someone has another perspective ←

13:20:01 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q? ←

13:20:03 <Karen> Ralph: what UA does is up to the agent

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ralph: what UA does is up to the agent ←

13:20:14 <ivan> ack dauwhe

Ivan Herman: ack dauwhe ←

13:20:14 <Karen> ack Dave

ack Dave ←

13:20:22 <Karen> Dave: one and two look more important than 3 and 4

Dave Cramer: one and two look more important than 3 and 4 ←

13:20:41 <Karen> Brady: are these a basic criteria for what you laid out in your defnition?

Brady Duga: are these a basic criteria for what you laid out in your defnition? ←

13:20:43 <dkaplan3_> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+ ←

13:20:49 <Karen> …Is is fundamentally required?

...Is is fundamentally required? ←

13:21:06 <Karen> Brady: which parts require access to components without transversing the entire package

Brady Duga: which parts require access to components without transversing the entire package ←

13:21:14 <ivan> ack mgylling

Ivan Herman: ack mgylling ←

13:21:27 <Karen> Markus: This is not a complete list of functional requirements

Markus Gylling: This is not a complete list of functional requirements ←

13:21:41 <Karen> …to Nick's question about completeness is Nick's question about digital signatures

...to Nick's question about completeness is Nick's question about digital signatures ←

13:21:50 <Karen> …We have listed that in OCF functionality

...We have listed that in OCF functionality ←

13:22:01 <Karen> …ability of package to have static location to find a digital signature

...ability of package to have static location to find a digital signature ←

13:22:05 <Karen> …and encryption

...and encryption ←

13:22:12 <Karen> …those could also qualify as critieria

...those could also qualify as critieria ←

13:22:19 <ivan> ack dkaplan3_

Ivan Herman: ack dkaplan3_ ←

13:22:23 <Karen> …At end of day, we need a complete list of functional requirements

...At end of day, we need a complete list of functional requirements ←

13:22:34 <Karen> Tzviya: yes, and if someone wants to help putting this together

Tzviya Siegman: yes, and if someone wants to help putting this together ←

13:22:47 <Karen> Brady: depends upon…not sure who we are writing this new package for

Brady Duga: depends upon...not sure who we are writing this new package for ←

13:22:52 <Karen> …what do we need to do with packaging

...what do we need to do with packaging ←

13:22:56 <Karen> ack Deborah

ack Deborah ←

13:23:07 <Karen> Deborah: I would like to speak to 3 and 4 not being fundamental

Deborah Kaplan: I would like to speak to 3 and 4 not being fundamental ←

13:23:19 <Karen> …if the list is 'let's see what a package is' then I'm ok;

...if the list is 'let's see what a package is' then I'm ok; ←

13:23:30 <Karen> …but if we are looking to create a list of requirements

...but if we are looking to create a list of requirements ←

13:23:49 <Karen> …why can't we say a packaging format is like old school writing to a tape archive

...why can't we say a packaging format is like old school writing to a tape archive ←

13:24:05 <Karen> …But it's 2015, so we should write a complete list of functional requirements and make them good ones

...But it's 2015, so we should write a complete list of functional requirements and make them good ones ←

13:24:10 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q? ←

13:24:15 <Ralph> -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html Tzviya's Packaging slides

Unknown Ralph: -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html Tzviya's Packaging slides ←

13:24:25 <Karen> Tzviya: We are pretty comfortable with these requirements

Tzviya Siegman: We are pretty comfortable with these requirements ←

13:24:42 <Ralph> i|Tzviya: There are a lot of slides, |-> http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html Tzviya's Packaging slides|

Unknown Ralph: i|Tzviya: There are a lot of slides, |-> http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html Tzviya's Packaging slides| ←

13:24:45 <Karen> …But if we write packaging spec differently, the packaging writes it in

...But if we write packaging spec differently, the packaging writes it in ←

13:25:03 <Karen> …talking about books, not so much; not books, becomes more of an issue

...talking about books, not so much; not books, becomes more of an issue ←

13:25:14 <Karen> …So we should put together a list of functional requirements

...So we should put together a list of functional requirements ←

13:25:19 <Karen> …We have zip and derivatives

...We have zip and derivatives ←

13:25:25 <Karen> …Multipart MIME and similar

...Multipart MIME and similar ←

13:25:38 <Karen> …and Databasing which we are not looking at today [slide4]

...and Databasing which we are not looking at today [slide4] ←

13:25:43 <Karen> [slide 5]

[slide 5] ←

13:25:46 <Karen> ...Zip

...Zip ←

13:26:03 <Karen> …Thought we might look at Zip and see whether this works; what it does and does not meet

...Thought we might look at Zip and see whether this works; what it does and does not meet ←

13:26:06 <Karen> …and EPUB1 on radar

...and EPUB1 on radar ←

13:26:20 <Karen> …Going back to what Zip actually is; and thank you, Brady for pointing me in right direction

...Going back to what Zip actually is; and thank you, Brady for pointing me in right direction ←

13:26:26 <Karen> …Zip is pretty stable

...Zip is pretty stable ←

13:26:38 <Karen> [reads from slide]

[reads from slide] ←

13:26:51 <Karen> Brady: If Zip is local, you can jump to where you want to be

Brady Duga: If Zip is local, you can jump to where you want to be ←

13:26:59 <Karen> …but if streaming you have to wait for the last chunk

...but if streaming you have to wait for the last chunk ←

13:27:05 <Karen> …you cannot do anything until you get it

...you cannot do anything until you get it ←

13:27:17 <Karen> …If you have it local, you can jump and it tells you where to go

...If you have it local, you can jump and it tells you where to go ←

13:27:23 <Karen> Tzviya: if you have file online

Tzviya Siegman: if you have file online ←

13:27:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph ←

13:27:35 <Karen> Brady: If you want to display contents of Zip before it downloads

Brady Duga: If you want to display contents of Zip before it downloads ←

13:27:42 <Karen> …and you don't want to wait, you cannot

...and you don't want to wait, you cannot ←

13:27:52 <Karen> …have to wait until chapter 50 is downloaded before you can read chapter one

...have to wait until chapter 50 is downloaded before you can read chapter one ←

13:27:57 <Karen> …if you have downloaded, you are fine

...if you have downloaded, you are fine ←

13:28:04 <Ralph> s/…/.../G

13:28:15 <Karen> …but there is issue of waiting if not already downloaded

...but there is issue of waiting if not already downloaded ←

13:28:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph ←

13:28:21 <Karen> Tzviya: Spec is from the '90s

Tzviya Siegman: Spec is from the '90s ←

13:28:32 <Karen> …talks about splitting files on floppy disks

...talks about splitting files on floppy disks ←

13:28:43 <Karen> …has very little attention to metadata in the spec

...has very little attention to metadata in the spec ←

13:28:48 <NickRuffilo> q+

Scribe problem: the name 'NickRuffilo' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

13:28:51 <Karen> …it is possible to include more but it requires changes

...it is possible to include more but it requires changes ←

13:28:55 <Karen> ack Nick

ack Nick ←

13:29:05 <Karen> Nick: I know zip is great at compressing text

Unknown Nick: I know zip is great at compressing text ←

13:29:20 <Karen> …but for files out of hand, is there room for compression

...but for files out of hand, is there room for compression ←

13:29:32 <Karen> …is Zip the right package, or is that a nice benefit to reduce disk size

...is Zip the right package, or is that a nice benefit to reduce disk size ←

13:29:32 <HeatherF> q+

Heather Flanagan: q+ ←

13:29:36 <Karen> Tzviya: I have not yet addressed

Tzviya Siegman: I have not yet addressed ←

13:29:51 <Karen> …outside of Zip, packaging allows any type of compression

...outside of Zip, packaging allows any type of compression ←

13:30:00 <Karen> Nick: I am not fully functional in Tar

Unknown Nick: I am not fully functional in Tar ←

13:30:06 <Karen> ack Heather

ack Heather ←

13:30:16 <Karen> Heather: I was thinking about compression and wondering about compression format

Scribe problem: the name 'Heather' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Heather Flanagan Heather Reid . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Heather: I was thinking about compression and wondering about compression format ←

13:30:32 <Karen> …several things could come into this and wonder if they would be separate or part of the packaging itself

...several things could come into this and wonder if they would be separate or part of the packaging itself ←

13:30:53 <Karen> …Compression is one thing that would make things tidier with space

...Compression is one thing that would make things tidier with space ←

13:31:03 <Karen> …expectations with DRM

...expectations with DRM ←

13:31:57 <Ralph> present+ DeborahKaplan

Unknown Ralph: present+ DeborahKaplan ←

13:32:09 <Karen> Markus: As all of you know, EPUB uses Zip; has defined OCF spec on top of Zip

Markus Gylling: As all of you know, EPUB uses Zip; has defined OCF spec on top of Zip ←

13:32:14 <Karen> …which adds specialized features

...which adds specialized features ←

13:32:21 <Karen> ..which were deemed as necessary

..which were deemed as necessary ←

13:32:25 <Karen> …there is a file on the wiki

...there is a file on the wiki ←

13:32:30 <Karen> …which lists the things

...which lists the things ←

13:32:34 <mgylling> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/OCF_Functionality

Markus Gylling: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/OCF_Functionality ←

13:32:36 <ivan> present+ DianneKennedy

Ivan Herman: present+ DianneKennedy ←

13:32:42 <Karen> …that OCF does on top of Zip

...that OCF does on top of Zip ←

13:32:42 <ivan> present+ JulieMorris

Ivan Herman: present+ JulieMorris ←

13:32:54 <Karen> …The thinking is that when we create this list for the future of packaging for publications

...The thinking is that when we create this list for the future of packaging for publications ←

13:33:02 <Karen> …we should be able to harvest some things from OCF

...we should be able to harvest some things from OCF ←

13:33:11 <Karen> …does not mean we need to recreate all the things OCF does

...does not mean we need to recreate all the things OCF does ←

13:33:18 <Karen> …but owe it to ask what is relevant

...but owe it to ask what is relevant ←

13:33:28 <Karen> …OCF does add a certain amount of predicatbility for entry files

...OCF does add a certain amount of predicatbility for entry files ←

13:33:41 <Karen> …hooks for digital signatures and encryption information

...hooks for digital signatures and encryption information ←

13:33:45 <Karen> …two things that are needed

...two things that are needed ←

13:34:04 <Karen> …Then as Brady said, we don't use the built-in zip things

...Then as Brady said, we don't use the built-in zip things ←

13:34:07 <Karen> …don't know origins of that

...don't know origins of that ←

13:34:10 <Karen> …that is where we are

...that is where we are ←

13:34:15 <clapierre> q+

Charles LaPierre: q+ ←

13:34:22 <Karen> Tzviya: All of these things are important and there needs to be a place for them to live

Tzviya Siegman: All of these things are important and there needs to be a place for them to live ←

13:34:29 <ivan> ack clapierre

Ivan Herman: ack clapierre ←

13:34:29 <Karen> …need to have a home for them

...need to have a home for them ←

13:34:55 <Karen> Charles: metadata for us inside the zip container…discoverability means you have to download everything

Charles LaPierre: metadata for us inside the zip container...discoverability means you have to download everything ←

13:35:02 <Karen> Tzviya: We should outline criteria

Tzviya Siegman: We should outline criteria ←

13:35:07 <Karen> …and what we can do with packaging on the web

...and what we can do with packaging on the web ←

13:35:15 <Karen> …EPUB is a customization of Zip

...EPUB is a customization of Zip ←

13:35:31 <Karen> …we are all fairly familiar with it

...we are all fairly familiar with it ←

13:35:38 <Karen> [slide 6]

[slide 6] ←

13:35:50 <Karen> …Robust metadata

...Robust metadata ←

13:36:14 <Karen> …whether this meets criteria we have outlined, do we think robust metadata?

...whether this meets criteria we have outlined, do we think robust metadata? ←

13:36:18 <Karen> Bill: I vote yes

Bill Kasdorf: I vote yes ←

13:36:28 <Karen> Tzviya: does robust metadata meet the criteria for a package

Tzviya Siegman: does robust metadata meet the criteria for a package ←

13:36:38 <Karen> …I would say yes, but, it's not exposed; it's in the package

...I would say yes, but, it's not exposed; it's in the package ←

13:36:45 <Karen> …the way EPUB is now, it is not using the language of the web

...the way EPUB is now, it is not using the language of the web ←

13:37:00 <Karen> Bill: the latter is relevant; former is…an access issue

Bill Kasdorf: the latter is relevant; former is...an access issue ←

13:37:04 <Karen> Brady: does offline great

Brady Duga: does offline great ←

13:37:11 <Karen> …maybe two entires; online and offline

...maybe two entires; online and offline ←

13:37:17 <Karen> Bill: it's not because we are saying it's both

Bill Kasdorf: it's not because we are saying it's both ←

13:37:24 <Karen> Nick: The unzipped EPUB does wonderful on the web

Unknown Nick: The unzipped EPUB does wonderful on the web ←

13:37:35 <Karen> …does fine with a little code; it's that package part

...does fine with a little code; it's that package part ←

13:37:43 <Karen> Tzviya: The package is the problem not the stuff inside of it

Tzviya Siegman: The package is the problem not the stuff inside of it ←

13:37:45 <Karen> Nick: exactly

Unknown Nick: exactly ←

13:38:00 <Karen> Brady: you had choices on slide: zip, MIME, another option is None

Brady Duga: you had choices on slide: zip, MIME, another option is None ←

13:38:05 <Karen> …do we need a package file?

...do we need a package file? ←

13:38:15 <Karen> …I understand the cases; you are giving me a file

...I understand the cases; you are giving me a file ←

13:38:21 <Karen> …and FTP-ing it

...and FTP-ing it ←

13:38:29 <Karen> …but for a web app, I don't care

...but for a web app, I don't care ←

13:38:38 <Karen> Ivan: this question comes up the same way in some of the working groups

Ivan Herman: this question comes up the same way in some of the working groups ←

13:38:41 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

13:38:44 <dauwhe> q+

Dave Cramer: q+ ←

13:38:45 <Karen> ..if we say at the moment, the information I got

..if we say at the moment, the information I got ←

13:38:54 <clapierre> q+

Charles LaPierre: q+ ←

13:38:56 <Karen> …that digital publishing is one of the use cases that the WebApp community looks at

...that digital publishing is one of the use cases that the WebApp community looks at ←

13:38:59 <Karen> …and they need packaging

...and they need packaging ←

13:39:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←

13:39:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph ←

13:39:04 <dkaplan3_> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+ ←

13:39:10 <Karen> …and if we say, 'no we don't' the situation should change

...and if we say, 'no we don't' the situation should change ←

13:39:12 <Karen> ack Nick

ack Nick ←

13:39:16 <ivan> ack NickRuffilo

Ivan Herman: ack NickRuffilo ←

13:39:19 <pbelfanti> q+

Paul Belfanti: q+ ←

13:39:29 <Karen> Nick: one of the huge values of package lets you define a constraint and put a hash value

Unknown Nick: one of the huge values of package lets you define a constraint and put a hash value ←

13:39:35 <Karen> …on web you cannot forget security

...on web you cannot forget security ←

13:39:37 <Karen> …on the web

...on the web ←

13:39:46 <Karen> …someone will add or remove items that should not be there

...someone will add or remove items that should not be there ←

13:39:55 <Karen> …packaging could give us the opportunity to check things

...packaging could give us the opportunity to check things ←

13:39:59 <Karen> …huge value for that

...huge value for that ←

13:40:05 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q? ←

13:40:06 <Karen> Brady: I don't believe you gave us the criteria

Brady Duga: I don't believe you gave us the criteria ←

13:40:11 <Karen> …we already said random access

...we already said random access ←

13:40:14 <Karen> ack Dave

ack Dave ←

13:40:19 <ivan> ack dauwhe

Ivan Herman: ack dauwhe ←

13:40:37 <Karen> Dave: I read NYTimes web site; it's not packaged discretely

Dave Cramer: I read NYTimes web site; it's not packaged discretely ←

13:40:42 <Karen> …don't we have web mechanisms

...don't we have web mechanisms ←

13:41:00 <ivan> ack clapierre

Ivan Herman: ack clapierre ←

13:41:02 <Karen> …publishers probably like packaging; we can also wrap DRM; but is that required to do what we do

...publishers probably like packaging; we can also wrap DRM; but is that required to do what we do ←

13:41:10 <Karen> Charles: I was going to bring up security issue as well

Charles LaPierre: I was going to bring up security issue as well ←

13:41:14 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf

Ivan Herman: ack Bill_Kasdorf ←

13:41:16 <Karen> …to know that something has not been changed is huge

...to know that something has not been changed is huge ←

13:41:19 <Karen> ack Bill

ack Bill ←

13:41:32 <Karen> Bill: not sure if we are talking packaging on the web, EPUB or EPUB/Web

Bill Kasdorf: not sure if we are talking packaging on the web, EPUB or EPUB/Web ←

13:41:45 <Karen> …intriguing to say it's what's in the package; agnostic

...intriguing to say it's what's in the package; agnostic ←

13:41:54 <Karen> …as soon as you get stuff out of package, it's fine online

...as soon as you get stuff out of package, it's fine online ←

13:42:13 <Karen> …why is there only one way to put it into a package?

...why is there only one way to put it into a package? ←

13:42:18 <patrick_keating> q+

Patrick Keating: q+ ←

13:42:20 <Karen> Tzviya: Then use HTML

Tzviya Siegman: Then use HTML ←

13:42:27 <Karen> Bill: packaging offline, or web online

Bill Kasdorf: packaging offline, or web online ←

13:42:28 <clapierre> q+

Charles LaPierre: q+ ←

13:42:31 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

13:42:36 <Karen> …is it really in a package online?

...is it really in a package online? ←

13:42:50 <Karen> Tzviya: We are used to package being in a box; maybe it's just a special URL

Tzviya Siegman: We are used to package being in a box; maybe it's just a special URL ←

13:42:57 <ivan> ack dkaplan3_

Ivan Herman: ack dkaplan3_ ←

13:42:58 <Karen> Bill: and you can put it in a zip

Bill Kasdorf: and you can put it in a zip ←

13:43:07 <Karen> Deborah: balance some aspirational and pragmatic

Deborah Kaplan: balance some aspirational and pragmatic ←

13:43:16 <Karen> …my job is to take things publishers give me and put them on the web

...my job is to take things publishers give me and put them on the web ←

13:43:25 <Karen> …if we say just use whatever packaging format works

...if we say just use whatever packaging format works ←

13:43:28 <Karen> …it's too hard

...it's too hard ←

13:43:34 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

13:43:37 <Karen> …publishing industry is not as tech savvy

...publishing industry is not as tech savvy ←

13:43:43 <Karen> …we run EPUB check and single packaging

...we run EPUB check and single packaging ←

13:43:49 <Karen> …not DRM or signature

...not DRM or signature ←

13:44:00 <Karen> …but a few things for containers; but don't say just give me some stuff

...but a few things for containers; but don't say just give me some stuff ←

13:44:05 <Karen> …industry will collapse

...industry will collapse ←

13:44:16 <Karen> …we are not as an industry good enough to say just give me some HTML

...we are not as an industry good enough to say just give me some HTML ←

13:44:20 <Karen> …So I would really like...

...So I would really like... ←

13:44:27 <ivan> ack patrick_keating

Ivan Herman: ack patrick_keating ←

13:44:28 <Karen> Tzviya: We are in the abstract

Tzviya Siegman: We are in the abstract ←

13:44:33 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q- ←

13:44:50 <Karen> Patrick: the zip package is not just a container, but also tied to what you are showing

Patrick Keating: the zip package is not just a container, but also tied to what you are showing ←

13:44:52 <Karen> …good to show pages

...good to show pages ←

13:44:59 <Karen> …but if trying to make an offline reader with DRM

...but if trying to make an offline reader with DRM ←

13:45:10 <Karen> …the package is tightly integrated to features and how to do well

...the package is tightly integrated to features and how to do well ←

13:45:14 <Karen> …cannot just leave it wide open

...cannot just leave it wide open ←

13:45:22 <Karen> …you cannot make a reading system that will do it well

...you cannot make a reading system that will do it well ←

13:45:31 <Karen> …Looking at manifest of XML of the open container

...Looking at manifest of XML of the open container ←

13:45:37 <Karen> …and it's encrypted this or that way

...and it's encrypted this or that way ←

13:45:41 <Karen> …file size is in the zip container

...file size is in the zip container ←

13:46:00 <Karen> …you have to make predictability around retrieving assets, that is essential information

...you have to make predictability around retrieving assets, that is essential information ←

13:46:01 <ivan> ack pbelfanti

Ivan Herman: ack pbelfanti ←

13:46:04 <Karen> ack Paul

ack Paul ←

13:46:14 <Karen> Paul: Just raise kinds of points people have been speaking to

Paul Belfanti: Just raise kinds of points people have been speaking to ←

13:46:18 <Karen> …what is the purpose of the package

...what is the purpose of the package ←

13:46:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←

13:46:42 <Karen> …security has been mentioned; defining what is there for consistency in reading systems

...security has been mentioned; defining what is there for consistency in reading systems ←

13:46:43 <ivan> ack clapierre

Ivan Herman: ack clapierre ←

13:46:51 <Karen> …if not through a packaging system, what are the alternatives?

...if not through a packaging system, what are the alternatives? ←

13:47:00 <Karen> Charles: If you have all the components with security tags

Charles LaPierre: If you have all the components with security tags ←

13:47:13 <Ralph> present+ PaulBelfanti, JohannesWilm

Unknown Ralph: present+ PaulBelfanti, JohannesWilm ←

13:47:15 <ivan> ack NickRuffilo

Ivan Herman: ack NickRuffilo ←

13:47:16 <Karen> …for each file, then you know the manifest, if correct, you can check those without a package having security

...for each file, then you know the manifest, if correct, you can check those without a package having security ←

13:47:20 <Karen> Nick: back to practical a bit

Unknown Nick: back to practical a bit ←

13:47:28 <Karen> …Amazon decided it did not like EPUB spec

...Amazon decided it did not like EPUB spec ←

13:47:33 <Karen> …they made that decision

...they made that decision ←

13:47:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph ←

13:47:39 <Karen> …there is a new spec that no one else can do

...there is a new spec that no one else can do ←

13:47:48 <Karen> …some publishers run it through the moby generation

...some publishers run it through the moby generation ←

13:47:53 <Karen> …it outputs the format you want

...it outputs the format you want ←

13:48:01 <Karen> …that is acceptable to many publishers

...that is acceptable to many publishers ←

13:48:10 <Karen> …also question of are we making business decisions

...also question of are we making business decisions ←

13:48:21 <Karen> …if you make this web page with root metadata and then let retailers decide

...if you make this web page with root metadata and then let retailers decide ←

13:48:25 <Karen> …not saying it's the grand ideal

...not saying it's the grand ideal ←

13:48:35 <Karen> …but it's what certain retailers will do; they will ignore your spec

...but it's what certain retailers will do; they will ignore your spec ←

13:48:39 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf

Ivan Herman: ack Bill_Kasdorf ←

13:48:44 <Karen> …then content producers will do what they want

...then content producers will do what they want ←

13:48:59 <Karen> Tzviya: we cannot talk about business requirements to that extent

Tzviya Siegman: we cannot talk about business requirements to that extent ←

13:49:03 <Karen> …in a discussion like this

...in a discussion like this ←

13:49:09 <Karen> …cannot let this cloud our judgment

...cannot let this cloud our judgment ←

13:49:11 <Karen> ack Bill

ack Bill ←

13:49:19 <Karen> Bill: Reminder that in the EPUB we have a package file

Bill Kasdorf: Reminder that in the EPUB we have a package file ←

13:49:22 <Karen> …not what we are talking about

...not what we are talking about ←

13:49:28 <Karen> …in the package we are talking about

...in the package we are talking about ←

13:49:36 <Karen> Tzviya: we have a lot more to talk about

Tzviya Siegman: we have a lot more to talk about ←

13:49:43 <Karen> [slide 7]

[slide 7] ←

13:49:57 <Karen> …Allows for the inclusion of non-ASCII content in messages

...Allows for the inclusion of non-ASCII content in messages ←

13:50:01 <Karen> [reads slide]

[reads slide] ←

13:50:48 <Karen> [slide 8] http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html?full#8

[slide 8] http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html?full#8 ←

13:51:02 <Karen> …This was 1999; world was not ready for it

...This was 1999; world was not ready for it ←

13:51:10 <Karen> …We have read through this and talked about it

...We have read through this and talked about it ←

13:51:21 <Karen> …it offered offine and online support; access to components

...it offered offine and online support; access to components ←

13:51:25 <Karen> …refresh new componenets

...refresh new componenets ←

13:51:35 <Karen> …use information offered on a standard web site

...use information offered on a standard web site ←

13:51:47 <Karen> …we were pretty much there on how to access and update the information

...we were pretty much there on how to access and update the information ←

13:51:50 <Karen> …maybe try it again

...maybe try it again ←

13:51:58 <Karen> Bill: party like it's 1999?

Bill Kasdorf: party like it's 1999? ←

13:52:08 <Karen> Tzviya: Good job, Brady. Ten years too early!

Tzviya Siegman: Good job, Brady. Ten years too early! ←

13:52:14 <Karen> …moving to packaging on the web

...moving to packaging on the web ←

13:52:19 <Karen> [slide 9]

[slide 9] ←

13:52:35 <Karen> http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html?full#9

http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html?full#9 ←

13:52:44 <Karen> …hope everyone read the specs and Ivan's notes

...hope everyone read the specs and Ivan's notes ←

13:52:49 <Karen> [reads slide]

[reads slide] ←

13:53:33 <Karen> …that is a really long specification in one slide

...that is a really long specification in one slide ←

13:53:46 <Karen> …Ivan had written some notes to summarize this and we have discussed this several ties

...Ivan had written some notes to summarize this and we have discussed this several ties ←

13:53:52 <Karen> s/times

s/times ←

13:54:01 <Karen> …I would like to talk about what we would like to see to meet our requiremetns

...I would like to talk about what we would like to see to meet our requiremetns ←

13:54:16 <Karen> …I started a Google doc to talk about our functional requirements

...I started a Google doc to talk about our functional requirements ←

13:54:26 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/17OC8AXCwzwP1Hl754_vL5nJZBlhZ0vBDcsSStOJ5OeY/edit?usp=sharing

Tzviya Siegman: https://docs.google.com/document/d/17OC8AXCwzwP1Hl754_vL5nJZBlhZ0vBDcsSStOJ5OeY/edit?usp=sharing ←

13:54:46 <Karen> ..So, tell me some functional requirements

..So, tell me some functional requirements ←

13:54:56 <Ralph> present+ LiisaMcCloy-Kelley

Unknown Ralph: present+ LiisaMcCloy-Kelley ←

13:55:01 <Karen> Ivan: I am not sure if everyone is aware of the situation about this and why we need to discuss this

Ivan Herman: I am not sure if everyone is aware of the situation about this and why we need to discuss this ←

13:55:08 <Karen> …Brady and I already had a discussion on this

...Brady and I already had a discussion on this ←

13:55:12 <Ralph> [Liisa arrives]

Unknown Ralph: [Liisa arrives] ←

13:55:19 <Karen> …I chatted with Dan Appelquist within W3C who works on this

...I chatted with Dan Appelquist within W3C who works on this ←

13:55:27 <Karen> ..This packaging document came about not for digital publishing

..This packaging document came about not for digital publishing ←

13:55:31 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

13:55:34 <Karen> …digital publishing came in as a use case

...digital publishing came in as a use case ←

13:55:42 <Karen> …but more about web apps being distributed easily on the web

...but more about web apps being distributed easily on the web ←

13:55:50 <Karen> …this is being done in the WebApps WG

...this is being done in the WebApps WG ←

13:55:57 <Karen> …a document was produced by Jenni Tennison

...a document was produced by Jenni Tennison ←

13:56:03 <Karen> …at the moment it is stalled

...at the moment it is stalled ←

13:56:09 <Karen> …because of fundamental question

...because of fundamental question ←

13:56:17 <Karen> …of whether web or browser community needs such a specification

...of whether web or browser community needs such a specification ←

13:56:26 <Karen> …What I must admit that I did not understand a few months ago

...What I must admit that I did not understand a few months ago ←

13:56:30 <Karen> …put more time into it

...put more time into it ←

13:56:38 <Karen> …and got a level of understanding

...and got a level of understanding ←

13:56:47 <Karen> …there is a parallel effort going on

...there is a parallel effort going on ←

13:56:57 <Karen> …with Web Workers and Web @

...with Web Workers and Web @ ←

13:57:03 <Karen> …getting a lot of attention in the browser world

...getting a lot of attention in the browser world ←

13:57:15 <Karen> …some predict this will fundamentally change how browsers work

...some predict this will fundamentally change how browsers work ←

13:57:36 <Karen> …Browsers will have ability to locally store content offline

...Browsers will have ability to locally store content offline ←

13:57:40 <Karen> …and higher level browser user

...and higher level browser user ←

13:57:57 <Karen> …refer to some references, the browser will have the possibility to go back to the cache

...refer to some references, the browser will have the possibility to go back to the cache ←

13:58:15 <Karen> …this cache and mechanism around it is running in true parallel way to the browser and it does not slow things dowen

...this cache and mechanism around it is running in true parallel way to the browser and it does not slow things dowen ←

13:58:18 <Karen> s/down

s/down ←

13:58:18 <brady_duga> q+

Brady Duga: q+ ←

13:58:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←

13:58:34 <Karen> …There are voices that say...packaing

...There are voices that say...packaing ←

13:58:39 <Karen> …everyone can be happy

...everyone can be happy ←

13:58:51 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

13:58:53 <Karen> …there is the question if a web packaging or not is necessary

...there is the question if a web packaging or not is necessary ←

13:58:59 <Karen> ..where it hits these kinds of issues

..where it hits these kinds of issues ←

13:59:11 <Karen> …This is the moment when this community says yeah or ney

...This is the moment when this community says yeah or ney ←

13:59:27 <Karen> …what Deborah said, there is a whole industry that lives and dies with packaging

...what Deborah said, there is a whole industry that lives and dies with packaging ←

13:59:35 <Karen> …some may say  we don't care; you define it

...some may say we don't care; you define it ←

13:59:38 <Karen> …that can also happen

...that can also happen ←

13:59:43 <Karen> …this is all completely open

...this is all completely open ←

13:59:50 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

13:59:51 <Karen> …but why it's important for us to put a stake in the ground

...but why it's important for us to put a stake in the ground ←

13:59:55 <Karen> …and what Brady asked Yves

...and what Brady asked Yves ←

14:00:10 <Karen> …we have what we have; the EPUB package for reason of packaging, so don't mess with that

...we have what we have; the EPUB package for reason of packaging, so don't mess with that ←

14:00:13 <patrick_keating> q+

Patrick Keating: q+ ←

14:00:19 <Karen> …point where we have to make a stand

...point where we have to make a stand ←

14:00:21 <Karen> ack Brady

ack Brady ←

14:00:22 <tzviya> ack br

Tzviya Siegman: ack br ←

14:00:40 <Karen> Brady: I think the packaging for webapps and service workers alternative

Brady Duga: I think the packaging for webapps and service workers alternative ←

14:00:45 <Karen> …reasonable consideration

...reasonable consideration ←

14:00:55 <Karen> …no one writes a webapp for an unrelated service

...no one writes a webapp for an unrelated service ←

14:01:05 <Karen> …It's not that we don't have a client that doesn't know about the server

...It's not that we don't have a client that doesn't know about the server ←

14:01:19 <Karen> …if you have a client that does not know, you need a defined mechanism…to know what data looks like

...if you have a client that does not know, you need a defined mechanism...to know what data looks like ←

14:01:33 <Karen> …Web service workers lets you know on the fly…like give me resources for chapter 12

...Web service workers lets you know on the fly...like give me resources for chapter 12 ←

14:01:40 <Karen> …give me the right data at the right tie

...give me the right data at the right tie ←

14:01:41 <patrick_keating> q-

Patrick Keating: q- ←

14:01:43 <Karen> s/time

s/time ←

14:01:55 <Karen> …Give us…a blog of data so you can do something meaningful

...Give us...a blob of data so you can do something meaningful ←

14:02:05 <tzviya> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+ ←

14:02:05 <dkaplan3_> s/blog/blob

14:02:06 <Karen> …works well for publishers who know how to make a book work

...works well for publishers who know how to make a book work ←

14:02:22 <Karen> …not a link to the first chapter only; that would be a mess; but it's a packaged file for the whole book

...not a link to the first chapter only; that would be a mess; but it's a packaged file for the whole book ←

14:02:25 <tzviya> q+ to talk about non-books

Tzviya Siegman: q+ to talk about non-books ←

14:02:26 <Karen> …and zip works well for that

...and zip works well for that ←

14:02:32 <Karen> …is there a use case for a defined format

...is there a use case for a defined format ←

14:02:38 <Karen> …that works in the web app case

...that works in the web app case ←

14:02:50 <Karen> …I have ereader clients and services

...I have ereader clients and services ←

14:03:01 <Karen> …Use Apple reader with someone else's services

...Use Apple reader with someone else's services ←

14:03:06 <Karen> …we need to define in that case

...we need to define in that case ←

14:03:21 <Karen> …but if talking about individual person creating both sides of this, then service workers works in that case

...but if talking about individual person creating both sides of this, then service workers works in that case ←

14:03:29 <Karen> …service worker does that

...service worker does that ←

14:03:47 <Karen> …if it works for web apps, it works for books, unless client and server are provided by different people

...if it works for web apps, it works for books, unless client and server are provided by different people ←

14:03:49 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q? ←

14:03:54 <Karen> …then we can do it offline and online

...then we can do it offline and online ←

14:03:57 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

14:04:03 <Karen> …for the web case, service workers solves our problem just as well

...for the web case, service workers solves our problem just as well ←

14:04:14 <tzviya> ack bi

Tzviya Siegman: ack bi ←

14:04:15 <patrick_keating> q+

Patrick Keating: q+ ←

14:04:15 <Karen> …and we should probably go the way the rest of the web is going

...and we should probably go the way the rest of the web is going ←

14:04:16 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf

Ivan Herman: ack Bill_Kasdorf ←

14:04:17 <Karen> ack Bill

ack Bill ←

14:04:30 <Karen> Bill: that is the timing question I was going to ask

Bill Kasdorf: that is the timing question I was going to ask ←

14:04:35 <Karen> …Packaging question has stalled

...Packaging question has stalled ←

14:04:43 <Karen> …service workers …has traction

...service workers ...has traction ←

14:04:47 <Karen> …there is a timing issue here

...there is a timing issue here ←

14:05:07 <Karen> …it could be if the need for this is a publication issue, not a web issue, then maybe EPUB needs a packaging spec

...it could be if the need for this is a publication issue, not a web issue, then maybe EPUB needs a packaging spec ←

14:05:12 <tzviya> present+ Dianne Kennedy

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Dianne Kennedy ←

14:05:25 <Karen> Dianne Kennedy: representing magazine publishing

Dianne Kennedy: representing magazine publishing ←

14:05:41 <Karen> …they want single content to distribute to channels of content

...they want single content to distribute to channels of content ←

14:05:46 <Karen> …like videos

...like videos ←

14:05:57 <Karen> …we desperately need a packaged format, but more like the EPUB case

...we desperately need a packaged format, but more like the EPUB case ←

14:05:59 <Karen> ack Nick

ack Nick ←

14:05:59 <tzviya> ack ni

Tzviya Siegman: ack ni ←

14:06:01 <ivan> ack NickRuffilo

Ivan Herman: ack NickRuffilo ←

14:06:11 <Karen> NicK: thinking about it, no matter how you have it, there is always a package

Scribe problem: the name 'NicK' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown NicK: thinking about it, no matter how you have it, there is always a package ←

14:06:18 <Karen> …directory has a table

...directory has a table ←

14:06:31 <Karen> …no matter what, question becomes what is the best package

...no matter what, question becomes what is the best package ←

14:06:38 <Karen> …hearing a package is more useful offline

...hearing a package is more useful offline ←

14:06:52 <Karen> …but HTML you still need to define files that are offline or live and define what to be replaced

...but HTML you still need to define files that are offline or live and define what to be replaced ←

14:07:03 <Karen> …Twitter chat; just offline and don't show this

...Twitter chat; just offline and don't show this ←

14:07:09 <Karen> …Question is what is the best package for this

...Question is what is the best package for this ←

14:07:15 <ivan> ack tzviya

Ivan Herman: ack tzviya ←

14:07:15 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about non-books

Zakim IRC Bot: tzviya, you wanted to talk about non-books ←

14:07:15 <tzviya> ack tzv

Tzviya Siegman: ack tzv ←

14:07:18 <Karen> ..rescinding my earlier comment, no need for no package

..rescinding my earlier comment, no need for no package ←

14:07:29 <Karen> Tzviya: we have a few minutes left

Tzviya Siegman: we have a few minutes left ←

14:07:34 <Karen> …We have to keep non-books in mind

...We have to keep non-books in mind ←

14:07:45 <Karen> …non-books, journals also annotations are very much in this model

...non-books, journals also annotations are very much in this model ←

14:07:56 <Karen> …is that annotation part of this package or not?

...is that annotation part of this package or not? ←

14:08:01 <Karen> …We just need to be aware of that

...We just need to be aware of that ←

14:08:24 <Karen> …we don't have time to list the functional requirements today, but next Monday, please come prepared to list your requirements

...we don't have time to list the functional requirements today, but next Monday, please come prepared to list your requirements ←

14:08:31 <Karen> Markus: This session runs

Markus Gylling: This session runs ←

14:09:02 <tzviya> ack iv

Tzviya Siegman: ack iv ←

14:09:03 <Karen> George: Learning management systems and universities creating content fit into more of authoring environment that the package needs to fulfill as well

Scribe problem: the name 'George' is ambiguous. It could be any of: George Walkley George Kerscher . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown George: Learning management systems and universities creating content fit into more of authoring environment that the package needs to fulfill as well ←

14:09:04 <Karen> ack Ivan

ack Ivan ←

14:09:09 <Karen> Ivan: To answer what Bill asked

Ivan Herman: To answer what Bill asked ←

14:09:22 <Karen> …yes, there is traction around web workers and service workers

...yes, there is traction around web workers and service workers ←

14:09:37 <Karen> ..Around Chrome and Firefox, it's either alive by default or you set some flag

..Around Chrome and Firefox, it's either alive by default or you set some flag ←

14:09:42 <Karen> …and it's already there

...and it's already there ←

14:09:53 <Karen> …Nobody knows what Safari does; don't know what MS does

...Nobody knows what Safari does; don't know what MS does ←

14:10:01 <Karen> …core spec comes from Google

...core spec comes from Google ←

14:10:06 <Karen> …Firefox has figured it out

...Firefox has figured it out ←

14:10:22 <Karen> …not a question of whether but when web workers and service workers will be part of browsers

...not a question of whether but when web workers and service workers will be part of browsers ←

14:10:35 <Karen> …On the packaging part there has been reason here why we need packaging

...On the packaging part there has been reason here why we need packaging ←

14:10:40 <Karen> …as a half-way metadata person

...as a half-way metadata person ←

14:10:53 <Karen> …the need for clear identification for that stuff is important

...the need for clear identification for that stuff is important ←

14:11:00 <Karen> …I need a URI for something

...I need a URI for something ←

14:11:06 <Karen> …we don't have that pointer

...we don't have that pointer ←

14:11:15 <Karen> …that is an abstract reason why we need packaging

...that is an abstract reason why we need packaging ←

14:11:25 <Karen> …It may come back this evening for the chartering discussion

...It may come back this evening for the chartering discussion ←

14:11:41 <Karen> …The general browser world may say they don't need a packaging standard

...The general browser world may say they don't need a packaging standard ←

14:11:47 <Karen> …But we may have to do it ourselves

...But we may have to do it ourselves ←

14:11:55 <Karen> …and decide whether IDPF or W3C

...and decide whether IDPF or W3C ←

14:12:01 <Karen> Markus: Will not be browser native

Markus Gylling: Will not be browser native ←

14:12:04 <Karen> Ivan: Correct

Ivan Herman: Correct ←

14:12:08 <Karen> …understanding service workers

...understanding service workers ←

14:12:16 <Karen> …if web packaging standard is defined

...if web packaging standard is defined ←

14:12:23 <Karen> …and if service worker is properly defined

...and if service worker is properly defined ←

14:12:29 <dauwhe> status of Service Worker in browsers: https://jakearchibald.github.io/isserviceworkerready/

Dave Cramer: status of Service Worker in browsers: https://jakearchibald.github.io/isserviceworkerready/ ←

14:12:34 <Karen> …then implementing package by a service worker is a doable job

...then implementing package by a service worker is a doable job ←

14:12:50 <Karen> …not sure we would lose so much by it being done by a third party

...not sure we would lose so much by it being done by a third party ←

14:12:59 <Karen> …Brady, you may have another opinion

...Brady, you may have another opinion ←

14:13:00 <tzviya> ack pa

Tzviya Siegman: ack pa ←

14:13:02 <Karen> ack Patrick

ack Patrick ←

14:13:06 <ivan> ack patrick_keating

Ivan Herman: ack patrick_keating ←

14:13:22 <Karen> Patrick: Following lead of caching, portability becomes important

Patrick Keating: Following lead of caching, portability becomes important ←

14:13:47 <Karen> …I cannot send cached web page to a friend…or to a credit card with a book

...I cannot send cached web page to a friend...or to a credit card with a book ←

14:13:53 <Karen> …EPUB, a book is a thing, not a place

...EPUB, a book is a thing, not a place ←

14:14:09 <Karen> …part where we get books with URLs and URIs, it's nice that people think about books as a thing

...part where we get books with URLs and URIs, it's nice that people think about books as a thing ←

14:14:14 <brady_duga> q+

Brady Duga: q+ ←

14:14:15 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

14:14:17 <Karen> @: You mean in JS

Johannes Wilm: You mean in JS ←

14:14:29 <Karen> …you need a standard…based on JS, all wanting to read the same packaging file

...you need a standard...based on JS, all wanting to read the same packaging file ←

14:14:34 <Ralph> s/@/Johannes/

14:14:39 <dkaplan3_> q+ to ask if we will talk about streaming

Deborah Kaplan: q+ to ask if we will talk about streamability ←

14:14:41 <Karen> …You are saying you can do the whole thing in JS

...You are saying you can do the whole thing in JS ←

14:14:47 <Karen> …JS could read spec

...JS could read spec ←

14:14:54 <Karen> …and use service workers to access these things

...and use service workers to access these things ←

14:15:02 <dkaplan3_> s/streaming/streamability

14:15:03 <Karen> …For that you would not need a standard for just one JS

...For that you would not need a standard for just one JS ←

14:15:11 <Karen> …but if you have several and want them to read the same type of tile

...but if you have several and want them to read the same type of tile ←

14:15:15 <Karen> s/file

s/file ←

14:15:22 <Karen> …so does there need to be several?

...so does there need to be several? ←

14:15:42 <Karen> ack Brady: Only important if multiple clients talking to multiple servers

ack Brady: Only important if multiple clients talking to multiple servers ←

14:15:59 <Karen> Ivan: Distributing to many readers

Ivan Herman: Distributing to many readers ←

14:16:10 <Karen> Tzviya: but not just about distribution

Tzviya Siegman: but not just about distribution ←

14:16:20 <tzviya> ack br

Tzviya Siegman: ack br ←

14:16:21 <Karen> Liisa: We are not always online all the time

Scribe problem: the name 'Liisa' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Liisa: We are not always online all the time ←

14:16:25 <Karen> ack Brady

ack Brady ←

14:16:33 <Karen> Brady: interesting point about portability

Brady Duga: interesting point about portability ←

14:16:35 <tzviya> present+ Johannes

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Johannes ←

14:16:36 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

14:16:42 <Karen> …caching is performancing saving step

...caching is performancing saving step ←

14:16:46 <tzviya> present+ Liisa Mccloy-Kelley

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Liisa Mccloy-Kelley ←

14:16:54 <Karen> …as a user I may want to download book or collection of journals

...as a user I may want to download book or collection of journals ←

14:16:59 <tzviya> present+ Julie Morris

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Julie Morris ←

14:17:07 <Karen> …and know I have downloaded it to my hard drive and know I can read it on another device

...and know I have downloaded it to my hard drive and know I can read it on another device ←

14:17:18 <Karen> Markus: that fundamental principal needs to call that out

Markus Gylling: that fundamental principal needs to call that out ←

14:17:19 <Karen> q+

q+ ←

14:17:22 <astearns> two naive ideas: Could a local zip package be something a service worker could access and fill the cache with? And/or could there be a simple local server with a single purpose of serving local package contents?

Alan Stearns: two naive ideas: Could a local zip package be something a service worker could access and fill the cache with? And/or could there be a simple local server with a single purpose of serving local package contents? ←

14:17:31 <Karen> Markus: We need to explain the network independent artifact

Markus Gylling: We need to explain the network independent artifact ←

14:17:37 <Karen> …not bound to a browser cache

...not bound to a browser cache ←

14:17:43 <Karen> …an entity that stands on its own

...an entity that stands on its own ←

14:17:49 <Karen> …something I need to explain to people

...something I need to explain to people ←

14:18:02 <ivan> ack dkaplan3_

Ivan Herman: ack dkaplan3_ ←

14:18:02 <Zakim> dkaplan3_, you wanted to ask if we will talk about streaming

Zakim IRC Bot: dkaplan3_, you wanted to ask if we will talk about streaming ←

14:18:02 <Karen> …we need a good little essay somewhere on the wiki that we can point people to

...we need a good little essay somewhere on the wiki that we can point people to ←

14:18:16 <ivan> ack NickRuffilo

Ivan Herman: ack NickRuffilo ←

14:18:16 <Karen> Deborah: I wonder if we are going to have the streamability conversation?

Deborah Kaplan: I wonder if we are going to have the streamability conversation? ←

14:18:19 <Karen> ack Nick

ack Nick ←

14:18:30 <Karen> Nick: The concept of a URI as an identifier scares me

Unknown Nick: The concept of a URI as an identifier scares me ←

14:18:39 <Karen> …I just had some domains expire

...I just had some domains expire ←

14:18:48 <Karen> …I still have the data

...I still have the data ←

14:19:00 <Karen> Ivan: URIs and URLs are not the same

Ivan Herman: URIs and URLs are not the same ←

14:19:11 <Karen> Nick: But having a package and an identifier pointing to it

Unknown Nick: But having a package and an identifier pointing to it ←

14:19:17 <ivan> ack Karen

Ivan Herman: ack Karen ←

14:19:22 <Karen> …having a package makes the contents inside it easier

...having a package makes the contents inside it easier ←

14:19:41 <Ralph> Karen: we're also seeing many other devices

Karen Myers: we're also seeing many other devices [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

14:19:49 <Ralph> ... e.g. devices in vehicles

Unknown Ralph: ... e.g. devices in vehicles ←

14:19:52 <Ralph> ... televisions

Unknown Ralph: ... televisions and other devices that provide a reading experience ←

14:20:01 <ivan> ack Ralph

Ivan Herman: ack Ralph ←

14:20:01 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to expand on Markus' comment on artifacts

Zakim IRC Bot: Ralph, you wanted to expand on Markus' comment on artifacts ←

14:20:25 <Karen> Ralph: other files

Unknown Ralph: other files ←

14:20:30 <Karen> …and what this entity is

...and what this entity is ←

14:20:45 <Karen> …important that we describe the collection of things we are licensing

...important that we describe the collection of things we are licensing ←

14:20:53 <Karen> …this set of things has this license, this signature

...this set of things has this license, this signature ←

14:21:05 <Karen> …know it's different from that; and whether transportable in one communication or not

...know it's different from that; and whether transportable in one communication or not ←

14:21:08 <Karen> …those are separate

...those are separate ←

14:21:15 <Karen> …Markus made a good point

...Markus made a good point ←

14:21:26 <Karen> …and we can come back to question of how we transport this

...and we can come back to question of how we transport this ←

14:21:30 <Karen> Liisa; one other note

Liisa; one other note ←

14:21:37 <Karen> …one of short-comings of packaging format is the size

...one of short-comings of packaging format is the size ←

14:21:41 <Karen> …you cannot zip more than 2 gig

...you cannot zip more than 2 gig ←

14:21:53 <Karen> …as we talk about learning objects, long text and collections of things

...as we talk about learning objects, long text and collections of things ←

14:21:58 <Karen> …it is becoming a problem

...it is becoming a problem ←

14:22:04 <Karen> …2 gigs is a zip restriction

...2 gigs is a zip restriction ←

14:22:15 <Karen> …certain retailers won't let you get beyond 700 megs

...certain retailers won't let you get beyond 700 megs ←

14:22:16 <Ralph> s/... televisions/... televisions and other devices that provide a reading experience

14:22:23 <Karen> Tzviya: A valid point

Tzviya Siegman: A valid point ←

14:22:29 <Karen> Markus: It's a requirement

Markus Gylling: It's a requirement ←

14:22:34 <Karen> …a 32 bit problem?

...a 32 bit problem? ←

14:22:42 <Karen> Brady: I thought it was 64

Brady Duga: I thought it was 64 ←

14:22:51 <Karen> Tzviya: We don't need to assess it today

Tzviya Siegman: We don't need to assess it today ←

14:22:55 <Karen> ….Streamabilty

....Streamabilty ←

14:23:08 <Karen> …I also had streamability as one of my top criteria

...I also had streamability as one of my top criteria ←

14:23:13 <Karen> …but conclusion I reached

...but conclusion I reached ←

14:23:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←

14:23:43 <Karen> …is that it's not nec streamability is the requirement but the ability to refresh a component, like chapt. 12

...is that it's not nec streamability is the requirement but the ability to refresh a component, like chapt. 12 ←

14:23:46 <Karen> Bill: question

Bill Kasdorf: question ←

14:23:55 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf

Ivan Herman: ack Bill_Kasdorf ←

14:23:55 <Karen> …an important variant is adding a component

...an important variant is adding a component ←

14:24:01 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

14:24:03 <Karen> Tzviya; yes, additions, deletions or updates

Tzviya; yes, additions, deletions or updates ←

14:24:08 <Karen> …that is the conclusion I came to

...that is the conclusion I came to ←

14:24:18 <Karen> …streaming does not seem as important if you have random access

...streaming does not seem as important if you have random access ←

14:24:36 <Karen> Brady: I don't want to have to stream chapter 20 and not redo all the streaming

Brady Duga: I don't want to have to stream chapter 20 and not redo all the streaming ←

14:24:44 <Karen> Deborah: do you want random access?

Deborah Kaplan: do you want random access? ←

14:24:49 <Karen> Brady: streaming all the way to the end

Brady Duga: streaming all the way to the end ←

14:24:55 <Karen> Deborah: we containerize

Deborah Kaplan: we containerize ←

14:25:21 <Karen> Nick: not look at it as a large file; 1 gig vido

Unknown Nick: not look at it as a large file; 1 gig vido ←

14:25:24 <Karen> video

video ←

14:25:31 <Karen> Brady: Depends  upon who you are

Brady Duga: Depends upon who you are ←

14:25:35 <Karen> …I can easily stream video

...I can easily stream video ←

14:25:47 <Karen> …but I can imagine a company that does not want to do streaming video

...but I can imagine a company that does not want to do streaming video ←

14:25:50 <dkaplan3_> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+ ←

14:25:54 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

14:25:57 <Karen> Tzviya: I don't think streaming video should be part of packaging

Tzviya Siegman: I don't think streaming video should be part of packaging ←

14:25:58 <Karen> ack Ralph

ack Ralph ←

14:26:00 <ivan> ack Ralph

Ivan Herman: ack Ralph ←

14:26:04 <Karen> Ralph: there are two different things

Unknown Ralph: there are two different things ←

14:26:14 <Karen> …a question of whether I can randomly access; a communications question

...a question of whether I can randomly access; a communications question ←

14:26:27 <Karen> …even a big video file lets me start at frame number five

...even a big video file lets me start at frame number five ←

14:26:49 <Karen> …but that is different from another streamability question; do I need to wait for the last octet before I can stream the first oen

...but that is different from another streamability question; do I need to wait for the last octet before I can start rendering the first chapter in my request ←

14:26:59 <clapierre> q+

Charles LaPierre: q+ ←

14:27:00 <Karen> …that is important to movies, and also important to eBooks

...that is important to movies, and also important to eBooks ←

14:27:09 <Karen> …streamability connotes those two things and some others

...streamability connotes those two things and some others ←

14:27:17 <Karen> Brady: that is a good point about a large chapter

Brady Duga: that is a good point about a large chapter ←

14:27:24 <Karen> …you cannot start it until you download it

...you cannot start it until you download it ←

14:27:27 <ivan> ack ivan

Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←

14:27:32 <Karen> …today you cannot do it with a large chapter

...today you cannot do it with a large chapter ←

14:27:43 <Karen> Ivan: We are also talking about a format for scientific articles

Ivan Herman: We are also talking about a format for scientific articles ←

14:27:48 <Karen> …now and in future in a packaged format

...now and in future in a packaged format ←

14:27:54 <Karen> …will include experimental data

...will include experimental data ←

14:27:58 <Karen> …huge pieces of data

...huge pieces of data ←

14:28:03 <Karen> Bill: and will include videos

Bill Kasdorf: and will include videos ←

14:28:08 <Karen> Ivan: that, too

Ivan Herman: that, too ←

14:28:16 <Karen> …and loads of people will make it more optimal

...and loads of people will make it more optimal ←

14:28:26 <Karen> …huge CSV files, which are part of the scientific output for the article

...huge CSV files, which are part of the scientific output for the article ←

14:28:33 <Karen> …then streaming becomes important

...then streaming becomes important ←

14:28:49 <Karen> …Those big pieces of data are what the researcher will play with once he or she understands the paper

...Those big pieces of data are what the researcher will play with once he or she understands the paper ←

14:28:53 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q? ←

14:28:54 <Karen> ack Deborah

ack Deborah ←

14:28:55 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

14:28:58 <ivan> ack dkaplan3_

Ivan Herman: ack dkaplan3_ ←

14:29:06 <Karen> Deborah: Let's say we are talking abut widgets

Deborah Kaplan: Let's say we are talking abut widgets ←

14:29:20 <Karen> …you can get random access to sections of package; sections pointed out in metadata

...you can get random access to sections of package; sections pointed out in metadata ←

14:29:22 <Ralph> s/before I can stream the first oen/before I can start rendering the first chapter in my request

14:29:25 <Karen> …line 49 or minute 73

...line 49 or minute 73 ←

14:29:29 <Karen> …then you are in a section

...then you are in a section ←

14:29:40 <Karen> …can you see beginning of section if the widgets are huge

...can you see beginning of section if the widgets are huge ←

14:29:44 <Karen> …i think we are saying yes

...i think we are saying yes ←

14:29:47 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q? ←

14:29:49 <Karen> …but it's going to take a while

...but it's going to take a while ←

14:29:55 <Karen> Ralph: as a reader I want that

Unknown Ralph: as a reader I want that ←

14:29:56 <ivan> ack clapierre

Ivan Herman: ack clapierre ←

14:29:59 <Karen> Rick: the market expects it

Scribe problem: the name 'Rick' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Rick: the market expects it ←

14:30:13 <Karen> Charles: with steamability, video is one thing, but audio books

Charles LaPierre: with steamability, video is one thing, but audio books ←

14:30:18 <ivan> ack NickRuffilo

Ivan Herman: ack NickRuffilo ←

14:30:22 <Karen> …and closed captioning and sign language we need to consider

...and closed captioning and sign language we need to consider ←

14:30:24 <Karen> ack Nick

ack Nick ←

14:30:31 <Karen> Nick: does it have to be either or

Unknown Nick: does it have to be either or ←

14:30:36 <Karen> …can it be spec in the manifest

...can it be spec in the manifest ←

14:30:48 <Karen> …do I allow reading system to open before download is complete

...do I allow reading system to open before download is complete ←

14:30:57 <Karen> …some say it has to be downloaded from start to finish

...some say it has to be downloaded from start to finish ←

14:31:04 <Karen> …some reading systems may want to cater

...some reading systems may want to cater ←

14:31:10 <Karen> Ivan; but we said that zip cannot do that

Ivan; but we said that zip cannot do that ←

14:31:14 <Karen> …you have to take the whole thing

...you have to take the whole thing ←

14:31:19 <Karen> …that is the problem

...that is the problem ←

14:31:19 <Rick_Johnson> q+

Scribe problem: the name 'Rick_Johnson' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Rick_Johnson: q+ ←

14:31:24 <Karen> Nick: If we have random access

Unknown Nick: If we have random access ←

14:31:29 <Karen> …then from that point it's not an issue

...then from that point it's not an issue ←

14:31:37 <Karen> Brady: zip can random access if you have the file local

Brady Duga: zip can random access if you have the file local ←

14:31:42 <Karen> …from streaming perspective

...from streaming perspective ←

14:31:47 <Karen> ack Rick

ack Rick ←

14:31:49 <ivan> ack Rick_Johnson

Ivan Herman: ack Rick_Johnson ←

14:31:54 <Karen> Rick: it's not the reading system, it's the content author

Unknown Rick: it's not the reading system, it's the content author ←

14:31:59 <Karen> …do I let you read it or go online

...do I let you read it or go online ←

14:32:01 <ivan> ack Ralph

Ivan Herman: ack Ralph ←

14:32:01 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to respond to Nick

Zakim IRC Bot: Ralph, you wanted to respond to Nick ←

14:32:05 <Karen> ack Ralph

ack Ralph ←

14:32:10 <Karen> Ralph: in following on from Rick

Unknown Ralph: in following on from Rick ←

14:32:27 <Karen> …while the author may have choices, we should provide advice to authors

...while the author may have choices, we should provide advice to authors ←

14:32:34 <Karen> …a way to put those resources in the right order

...a way to put those resources in the right order ←

14:32:45 <Karen> …so you get the critical things you need to put in the right order

...so you get the critical things you need to put in the right order ←

14:32:51 <Karen> …This was a good discussion

...This was a good discussion ←

14:33:02 <Karen> …Next week we need to communicate a functional requirements document

...Next week we need to communicate a functional requirements document ←

14:33:07 <Karen> …and communicate this back to the TAG

...and communicate this back to the TAG ←

14:33:17 <Karen> …our next step is to put together the functional requiremetns

...our next step is to put together the functional requiremetns ←

14:33:21 <Karen> …so this is homework

...so this is homework ←

14:33:28 <Karen> …Some of us will need to put together a formal note

...Some of us will need to put together a formal note ←

14:33:45 <Karen> …with our thoughts from where packaging goes from a digital publishing perspective

...with our thoughts from where packaging goes from a digital publishing perspective ←

14:33:52 <Karen> Markus: Please introduce yourself

Markus Gylling: Please introduce yourself ←

14:33:56 <Karen> Nick Ruffilio

Nick Ruffilio ←

14:34:00 <Karen> …I work for AerBook

...I work for AerBook ←

14:34:08 <Karen> …a start-up that allows anyone to create a store

...a start-up that allows anyone to create a store ←

14:34:30 <Karen> Johannes Wilhelm; for Vivliostyle

Johannes WIlm; for Vivliostyle ←

14:34:34 <Karen> …we are working in JS space

...we are working in JS space ←

14:34:39 <Karen> Julie Morris, BISG

Julie Morris, BISG ←

14:34:54 <Karen> …non-profit trade association doing standards and research operating on behalf of publishing

...non-profit trade association doing standards and research operating on behalf of publishing ←

14:35:03 <Karen> Liisa McCloy Kelley, Penguin Random House

Liisa McCloy Kelley, Penguin Random House ←

14:35:09 <Karen> Dianne Kennedy, IDEAlliance

Dianne Kennedy, IDEAlliance ←

14:35:19 <Karen> …we focus on everything from print and postal distribution

...we focus on everything from print and postal distribution ←

14:35:26 <Karen> …to the distribution of periodical content

...to the distribution of periodical content ←

14:35:41 <Karen> …not only in print but across wide platforms, magazines and associated advertising

...not only in print but across wide platforms, magazines and associated advertising ←

14:35:55 <Karen> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:35:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen ←

14:48:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers

(No events recorded for 12 minutes)

Bill Kasdorf: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers ←

14:49:23 <Karen> s/Johannes Wilhelm/Johannes WIlm

14:50:31 <ivan> Topic: Identifiers

2. Identifiers

14:50:37 <NickRuffilo> scribenick: NickRuffilo

(Scribe set to Unknown NickRuffilo)

14:50:58 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "The next section is identifiers - we have until 12"

Markus Gylling: "The next section is identifiers - we have until 12" ←

14:51:44 <NickRuffilo> ...: "This is another of the core problem areas that we see moving into the future.  Identification and linking today in the digital publishig landscape is "totaly broken" to "almost working"

...: "This is another of the core problem areas that we see moving into the future. Identification and linking today in the digital publishig landscape is "totaly broken" to "almost working" ←

14:52:12 <NickRuffilo> ..."In terms of simulating digital publishing in how the web works, in this area we have lots of work to do in here.  Bill will be telling us which items we are tackling first."

..."In terms of simulating digital publishing in how the web works, in this area we have lots of work to do in here. Bill will be telling us which items we are tackling first." ←

14:52:44 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "My assigned agenda is to talk about fragment identifier requirements.  To put it in context, a couple months ago, we realized we had IDs for publication, and IDs for fragments"

Bill Kasdorf: "My assigned agenda is to talk about fragment identifier requirements. To put it in context, a couple months ago, we realized we had IDs for publication, and IDs for fragments" ←

14:53:01 <NickRuffilo> ...: "IDs for the publication are a 'losing battle' so lets start with IDs of fragments."

...: "IDs for the publication are a 'losing battle' so lets start with IDs of fragments." ←

14:53:31 <NickRuffilo> ...: "In the context of this group, the "thing" is a publication.  Obviously we have to have a way of identifying that we have a thing.  IDs are a proxy for metadata.  "

...: "In the context of this group, the "thing" is a publication. Obviously we have to have a way of identifying that we have a thing. IDs are a proxy for metadata. " ←

14:54:08 <NickRuffilo> ...: "What we are talking about today is how we identify the things that are in that thing.  Not just the descrete components but the things within those components.  Not just the DOM but also a video and time-based locations.  In an SVG a shape-based location."

...: "What we are talking about today is how we identify the things that are in that thing. Not just the descrete components but the things within those components. Not just the DOM but also a video and time-based locations. In an SVG a shape-based location." ←

14:54:30 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:54:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan ←

14:54:41 <NickRuffilo> ...: "A discussion on the list recently is people have to break out of their paradigms.  People have been defining co-ordinates for referencing images, but not all images are rectangular and scaling can be an issue."

...: "A discussion on the list recently is people have to break out of their paradigms. People have been defining co-ordinates for referencing images, but not all images are rectangular and scaling can be an issue." ←

14:54:56 <NickRuffilo> ...: "A location that has markup in a textual document isn't the only thing we need to identify."

...: "A location that has markup in a textual document isn't the only thing we need to identify." ←

14:55:33 <NickRuffilo> ...: "There is also a confusion on the assumption that there is that markup that an identifier points to a LOCATION - but it's possible to point to a fragment, which has a beginning and end point, so it's not a location as it is two locations."

...: "There is also a confusion on the assumption that there is that markup that an identifier points to a LOCATION - but it's possible to point to a fragment, which has a beginning and end point, so it's not a location as it is two locations." ←

14:55:57 <NickRuffilo> ...: "A fragment isn't always a point identifier..."

...: "A fragment isn't always a point identifier..." ←

14:56:47 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

14:56:56 <NickRuffilo> ...: "The task we started on was fragment identifiers.  THere were many contributions on the wiki.  ideally our task at hand is to dicuss the requirements for the fragment identifiers.  Another item on our agenda is to look at two of the candidate identifiers."

...: "The task we started on was fragment identifiers. THere were many contributions on the wiki. ideally our task at hand is to dicuss the requirements for the fragment identifiers. Another item on our agenda is to look at two of the candidate identifiers." ←

14:56:57 <mgylling> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers#Requirements

Markus Gylling: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers#Requirements ←

14:57:11 <NickRuffilo> ...: "On the wiki we identified a bunch of candidate fragment identifiers that are out there."

...: "On the wiki we identified a bunch of candidate fragment identifiers that are out there." ←

14:57:55 <NickRuffilo> ...: "So in terms of the requirements themselves, the starting point really is this set of 5 that IVAN contributed a month ago when we were actively reviewing these candidate specs, CFi that is part of the epub spec, the media fragments that are part of the web."

...: "So in terms of the requirements themselves, the starting point really is this set of 5 that IVAN contributed a month ago when we were actively reviewing these candidate specs, CFi that is part of the epub spec, the media fragments that are part of the web." ←

14:59:21 <NickRuffilo> ...: "1) Must be able to point to a thing 2) be able to follow a path 3) a way to reuse externally defined specifications - not just 1 way to point to a fragment.  How you point to an HTML document isn't always how you point to an SVG or video. 4) Fragments should have conceptual equivalents to URIs so that they are addressable on the web.  5) Base

...: "1) Must be able to point to a thing 2) be able to follow a path 3) a way to reuse externally defined specifications - not just 1 way to point to a fragment. How you point to an HTML document isn't always how you point to an SVG or video. 4) Fragments should have conceptual equivalents to URIs so that they are addressable on the web. 5) Base ←

14:59:22 <NickRuffilo> d on technologies that are widely deployed on the web.

d on technologies that are widely deployed on the web. ←

15:00:38 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Probably a month before that Tzviya had contributed a list of 'requirements' that she 'didn't make up' from the hypothesis wiki.  A list of conceptual requirements.  Simple, built with eye towards future, implementable now, web-content is 'unstable' anchors can never be known for certain so fall-backs, how to fail gracefully, "

...: "Probably a month before that Tzviya had contributed a list of 'requirements' that she 'didn't make up' from the hypothesis wiki. A list of conceptual requirements. Simple, built with eye towards future, implementable now, web-content is 'unstable' anchors can never be known for certain so fall-backs, how to fail gracefully, " ←

15:00:50 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Hypothes.is is an annotations service."

...: "Hypothes.is is an annotations service." ←

15:01:23 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Not expensive to compute.  Function well for diversity of content and formats.  Allow you to see if a given anchor will give excessive bandwidth."

...: "Not expensive to compute. Function well for diversity of content and formats. Allow you to see if a given anchor will give excessive bandwidth." ←

15:03:11 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Persistent citability.  Point-in-time citability - at what point in time were you referring to this thing.  (versioning).  Reproducability - whether it can be shared.  Analog for dpub is that it doesn't modify the resource.""

...: "Persistent citability. Point-in-time citability - at what point in time were you referring to this thing. (versioning). Reproducability - whether it can be shared. Analog for dpub is that it doesn't modify the resource."" ←

15:04:44 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Simple plain english: should it enable addressing arbitrary locations within a textual document, not just nodes in a document.  Enable discontinuous fragments to be associated in a document."

...: "Simple plain english: should it enable addressing arbitrary locations within a textual document, not just nodes in a document. Enable discontinuous fragments to be associated in a document." ←

15:05:08 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Potentially a fragment ID that identifies a collection of fragments"

...: "Potentially a fragment ID that identifies a collection of fragments" ←

15:05:32 <NickRuffilo> ...: "ability to mark from 2 locations - start and end."

...: "ability to mark from 2 locations - start and end." ←

15:06:15 <tzviya> ack iv

Tzviya Siegman: ack iv ←

15:06:43 <NickRuffilo> ivan: "Several things.  I'll repeat some of what you said, just with more emphasis.  Whatever we do, we should have somewhere a big poster "DO NOT REINVENT THE WHEEL""

Ivan Herman: "Several things. I'll repeat some of what you said, just with more emphasis. Whatever we do, we should have somewhere a big poster "DO NOT REINVENT THE WHEEL"" ←

15:07:23 <NickRuffilo> ...: "For various media types, the community has/is defining all types of identifier types.  We want to use all of them and avoid redefining these where there is already a fragment ID.  The number of IDs is probably stageringly high."

...: "For various media types, the community has/is defining all types of identifier types. We want to use all of them and avoid redefining these where there is already a fragment ID. The number of IDs is probably stageringly high." ←

15:07:52 <tzviya> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+ ←

15:08:16 <NickRuffilo> ...: "The reason I was clearly influenced in those 5 points by the packaging document is that very clearly they make a consicous attempt to do just that - reinventing the wheel.  it is something we need to keep in mind.  What they do is, a fragment within a package has two sides.  You ahve to indentify things that are package specific."

...: "The reason I was clearly influenced in those 5 points by the packaging document is that very clearly they make a consicous attempt to do just that - reinventing the wheel. it is something we need to keep in mind. What they do is, a fragment within a package has two sides. You ahve to indentify things that are package specific." ←

15:09:12 <NickRuffilo> ...: "One you have that you have to say - this is the fragment I used and this is the media type.  For the rest, it says "go check out the identifier for more info"  There may be more items - such as the discontinued things - where there are not already fragment identifiers - but the fundamental principals is that - in things such as SVG, is that t

...: "One you have that you have to say - this is the fragment I used and this is the media type. For the rest, it says "go check out the identifier for more info" There may be more items - such as the discontinued things - where there are not already fragment identifiers - but the fundamental principals is that - in things such as SVG, is that t ←

15:09:12 <NickRuffilo> here are already identifiers for them."

here are already identifiers for them." ←

15:09:23 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "People will also USE the existing IDs."

Bill Kasdorf: "People will also USE the existing IDs." ←

15:10:07 <mgylling> q+

Markus Gylling: q+ ←

15:10:24 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "If I look at it through the packaging lens, or the fragment pointing directly to a URI."

Ivan Herman: "If I look at it through the packaging lens, or the fragment pointing directly to a URI." ←

15:11:14 <NickRuffilo> ...: "The user should not see a difference that things will not look differently to the reader if on the web or not.  If I make cross-reference within the package, and it's within the package, then it all works out.  If I do annotation to chapter 1 as an outsider, then I'm not exactly sure how we would take that,  Somehow we should address - and I

...: "The user should not see a difference that things will not look differently to the reader if on the web or not. If I make cross-reference within the package, and it's within the package, then it all works out. If I do annotation to chapter 1 as an outsider, then I'm not exactly sure how we would take that, Somehow we should address - and I ←

15:11:14 <NickRuffilo> don't know how."

don't know how." ←

15:12:01 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "I have a correlary to add to that.  An item in that chapter may point to the SVG.  IN an epub, you can get to the SVG from the manifest, but in HTML you need to get to the image directly.  And you'll use a different syntax for identifying the SVG than a text-component of an HTML file."

Bill Kasdorf: "I have a correlary to add to that. An item in that chapter may point to the SVG. IN an epub, you can get to the SVG from the manifest, but in HTML you need to get to the image directly. And you'll use a different syntax for identifying the SVG than a text-component of an HTML file." ←

15:12:58 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "The 3rd thing is the timing issue.  I don't know how widespread it is, but there is a specification out there 'momento' that is done by some guys which tries to give a general way of how you refer to a document on the web with timestamps on it.  For that to work, servers have to be able to respond to that."

Ivan Herman: "The 3rd thing is the timing issue. I don't know how widespread it is, but there is a specification out there 'momento' that is done by some guys which tries to give a general way of how you refer to a document on the web with timestamps on it. For that to work, servers have to be able to respond to that." ←

15:13:22 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

15:13:34 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Servers are usually not prepared to handle versioning.  There is work out there, so let's not try to put on our plate more that we can chew.  The whole timing issue - because I'm scared of it - i'd rather put it out of scope for now."

...: "Servers are usually not prepared to handle versioning. There is work out there, so let's not try to put on our plate more that we can chew. The whole timing issue - because I'm scared of it - i'd rather put it out of scope for now." ←

15:13:57 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "What do we mean by requirements?  Defining the issues or just the issues we wish to address."

Bill Kasdorf: "What do we mean by requirements? Defining the issues or just the issues we wish to address." ←

15:14:06 <mgylling> ack Ralph

Markus Gylling: ack Ralph ←

15:14:18 <NickRuffilo> ...: "So we're not attempting to address ALL possible issues, but just ones we can actually solve."

...: "So we're not attempting to address ALL possible issues, but just ones we can actually solve." ←

15:15:05 <NickRuffilo> Ralph: "It would be helpful for this group to determine what has already been created out there.  What have our systems implemented?"

Unknown Ralph: "It would be helpful for this group to determine what has already been created out there. What have our systems implemented?" ←

15:15:36 <NickRuffilo> ...: "What I liked about the hypothesis set is that it's looking for stuff people have tried to implement.  I would encourage us to bring into the discussion, what has actually been built."

...: "What I liked about the hypothesis set is that it's looking for stuff people have tried to implement. I would encourage us to bring into the discussion, what has actually been built." ←

15:15:39 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q? ←

15:16:25 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "There are sectors of the publishing community where there are mechanisms for time-based identifiers.  There is now a standardized way of determining version of record.  In that world, those people would like to be able to use that."

Bill Kasdorf: "There are sectors of the publishing community where there are mechanisms for time-based identifiers. There is now a standardized way of determining version of record. In that world, those people would like to be able to use that." ←

15:16:31 <NickRuffilo> q+

q+ ←

15:17:16 <NickRuffilo> ...: "There are sectors where time-based aren't just a nice-to-have but a need-to-have.  We are agnostic as to the existing specifications but the requirement is that we enable them to be used if they exist."

...: "There are sectors where time-based aren't just a nice-to-have but a need-to-have. We are agnostic as to the existing specifications but the requirement is that we enable them to be used if they exist." ←

15:17:16 <mgylling> ack tzviya

Markus Gylling: ack tzviya ←

15:17:19 <ivan> ack tzviya

Ivan Herman: ack tzviya ←

15:17:57 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Timestamp isn't about versions.  Version requirements aren't tied to a timestamp, it's tied to a versioning.  "

Tzviya Siegman: "Timestamp isn't about versions. Version requirements aren't tied to a timestamp, it's tied to a versioning. " ←

15:18:17 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "We can't make magazines do it the way scholarly publishing does it."

Bill Kasdorf: "We can't make magazines do it the way scholarly publishing does it." ←

15:19:00 <mgylling> ack mgylling

Markus Gylling: ack mgylling ←

15:19:06 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Right now, if you start searching for fragment identifiers, you'll get TOO many options.  There are lot of dated versions that are on their way out that we want to make sure we ignore.  We want to look forward and look at the emerging IDs and flag the opportunistic ones."

Tzviya Siegman: "Right now, if you start searching for fragment identifiers, you'll get TOO many options. There are lot of dated versions that are on their way out that we want to make sure we ignore. We want to look forward and look at the emerging IDs and flag the opportunistic ones." ←

15:19:26 <NickRuffilo> "In the magazine world, there's the concept of an expiration date."

"In the magazine world, there's the concept of an expiration date." ←

15:19:33 <ivan> ack mgylling

Ivan Herman: ack mgylling ←

15:20:33 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Tzviya said what I wanted to say - we need to understand how to go forward without it being a completely academic exercise.  There's an enormous amount of ID baggage out there.  There's no point of listing those.  From a pragmatic perspective we need to understand which are the core requirements that we need to fulfill."

Markus Gylling: "Tzviya said what I wanted to say - we need to understand how to go forward without it being a completely academic exercise. There's an enormous amount of ID baggage out there. There's no point of listing those. From a pragmatic perspective we need to understand which are the core requirements that we need to fulfill." ←

15:21:29 <NickRuffilo> ...: "for example, the ID of a range of text - the fact that you can't do that with a standard URL is really wierd.  It's probably because when you're reading a site about kitten,s, you don't need to, but it's a problem that we may have to invent.  There's probably a dozen specifications out there suggesting a way to do this, but they may all be ol

...: "for example, the ID of a range of text - the fact that you can't do that with a standard URL is really wierd. It's probably because when you're reading a site about kitten,s, you don't need to, but it's a problem that we may have to invent. There's probably a dozen specifications out there suggesting a way to do this, but they may all be ol ←

15:21:29 <NickRuffilo> d/deprecated. "

d/deprecated. " ←

15:21:57 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Somehow we need to have a 'must have' 'should have' and 'nice to have' categorization, so we don't over-populate the must-haves.  Start with the fundamentals."

...: "Somehow we need to have a 'must have' 'should have' and 'nice to have' categorization, so we don't over-populate the must-haves. Start with the fundamentals." ←

15:22:27 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Just like with packaging - we need a very clear, well-organized document that lets us know what we really need to do.""

...: "Just like with packaging - we need a very clear, well-organized document that lets us know what we really need to do."" ←

15:23:20 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "Devil in the details.  One thing we were going to look at is CFI.  CFI lets you traverse to points in the text, but we're bumping into an issue of "how do you count characters?"  At the last molecule, it becomes extremely difficult."

Bill Kasdorf: "Devil in the details. One thing we were going to look at is CFI. CFI lets you traverse to points in the text, but we're bumping into an issue of "how do you count characters?" At the last molecule, it becomes extremely difficult." ←

15:23:59 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "We want to pare the list down into what are the true requirements."

Ivan Herman: "We want to pare the list down into what are the true requirements." ←

15:24:01 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

15:24:04 <ivan> ack NickRuffilo

Ivan Herman: ack NickRuffilo ←

15:24:09 <Karen> Nick: I wanted to point out

Unknown Nick: I wanted to point out [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ] ←

15:24:12 <Karen> …not sure if EPUB thing

Karen Myers: ...not sure if EPUB thing ←

15:24:21 <Karen> …but Amazon and iBooks support a versioning system

Karen Myers: ...but Amazon and iBooks support a versioning system ←

15:24:24 <Karen> ..already built int

Karen Myers: ..already built int ←

15:24:35 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "That's what I wanted to do. Go through the document and fix things."

Bill Kasdorf: "That's what I wanted to do. Go through the document and fix things." ←

15:25:03 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "When it comes to the epub spec, to be agnostic, you need to be able to identify into all different specs and then go within the package."

Bill Kasdorf: "When it comes to the epub spec, to be agnostic, you need to be able to identify into all different specs and then go within the package." ←

15:25:34 <NickRuffilo> ...: "With epub - if you want to specify a term, and it's an ONIX term, you should be able to identify the identifier as well as the identity itself

...: "With epub - if you want to specify a term, and it's an ONIX term, you should be able to identify the identifier as well as the identity itself ←

15:25:59 <NickRuffilo> ...: "If you're in the SVG, is it obvious that the identifier is specific for SVG."

...: "If you're in the SVG, is it obvious that the identifier is specific for SVG." ←

15:26:22 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "In an ideal world, the MIME type would be used to explain how to utilize the identifier."

Markus Gylling: "In an ideal world, the MIME type would be used to explain how to utilize the identifier." ←

15:26:49 <NickRuffilo> bill: "If there was some link to the cross-mark or cross-ref ..."

Bill Kasdorf: "If there was some link to the cross-mark or cross-ref ..." ←

15:26:51 <NickRuffilo> q+

q+ ←

15:27:40 <NickRuffilo> bill: "rather than saying any possible scheme can be put into the identifiers issues, the ones that are implied by the mimetype are the ones that we need to focus on?"

Bill Kasdorf: "rather than saying any possible scheme can be put into the identifiers issues, the ones that are implied by the mimetype are the ones that we need to focus on?" ←

15:27:59 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

15:28:17 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "we should have a view of what identifiers are in use that we can leverage."

Markus Gylling: "we should have a view of what identifiers are in use that we can leverage." ←

15:28:36 <ivan> ack Ralph

Ivan Herman: ack Ralph ←

15:28:37 <mgylling> ack Ralph

Markus Gylling: ack Ralph ←

15:28:49 <mgylling> q+ Liisa

Markus Gylling: q+ Liisa ←

15:30:15 <NickRuffilo> Ralph: "Again, lets distinguish between the identifiers and the mechanisms for using it.  It came up previous, an open-ended problem is an issue because it makes it hard for a reading system to figure it out.  Does the container give me enough information that I need to write a renderer for that particular container?"

Unknown Ralph: "Again, lets distinguish between the identifiers and the mechanisms for using it. It came up previous, an open-ended problem is an issue because it makes it hard for a reading system to figure it out. Does the container give me enough information that I need to write a renderer for that particular container?" ←

15:31:05 <NickRuffilo> ...: "At least the container provides me enough information to figure out what to do with it."

...: "At least the container provides me enough information to figure out what to do with it." ←

15:31:13 <Karen> ack Nick

Karen Myers: ack Nick ←

15:31:13 <ivan> ack NickRuffilo

Ivan Herman: ack NickRuffilo ←

15:31:13 <mgylling> ack NickR

Markus Gylling: ack NickR ←

15:31:20 <mgylling> ack Liisa

Markus Gylling: ack Liisa ←

15:31:26 <ivan> ack liisa

Ivan Herman: ack liisa ←

15:32:54 <NickRuffilo> Lisa: "One of the things i think is fundamental - the authors VS externally - any random user calling something a fragment.  There is a bit of worry in that any random user does not know anything of what is inside the document itself.  They maybe can place markers, highlight something, but what they are not necessarily going to get is the relations

Scribe problem: the name 'Lisa' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Lisa: "One of the things i think is fundamental - the authors VS externally - any random user calling something a fragment. There is a bit of worry in that any random user does not know anything of what is inside the document itself. They maybe can place markers, highlight something, but what they are not necessarily going to get is the relations ←

15:32:54 <NickRuffilo> hips of something within.  The image has copyright and credit that need to be attributed to that image.  We don't have good ways to move that with a potential fragment."

hips of something within. The image has copyright and credit that need to be attributed to that image. We don't have good ways to move that with a potential fragment." ←

15:33:08 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q? ←

15:33:39 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "All of that is very important, but for this initiative - the goal is "how to identify the fragment"  Once you ID it, then you can build systems to identify the fragment."

Bill Kasdorf: "All of that is very important, but for this initiative - the goal is "how to identify the fragment" Once you ID it, then you can build systems to identify the fragment." ←

15:34:08 <NickRuffilo> bill: "we're focus on how to identify.  It is both internal and external identifier."

Bill Kasdorf: "we're focus on how to identify. It is both internal and external identifier." ←

15:34:59 <clapierre> q+

Charles LaPierre: q+ ←

15:35:01 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "The point you noted has an issue with an identifier and the metadata linked to all of it.  A fragment composed of discontiguous things."

Ivan Herman: "The point you noted has an issue with an identifier and the metadata linked to all of it. A fragment composed of discontiguous things." ←

15:35:09 <ivan> ack clapierre

Ivan Herman: ack clapierre ←

15:35:33 <NickRuffilo> Charles: "How big can a fragment be?"

Charles LaPierre: "How big can a fragment be?" ←

15:36:02 <NickRuffilo> bill: "fundamentally we're saying that there is a publication that some of which can be."

Bill Kasdorf: "fundamentally we're saying that there is a publication that some of which can be." ←

15:36:40 <NickRuffilo> "How big can the identifier can be?  How big can the identified content be?"

"How big can the identifier can be? How big can the identified content be?" ←

15:36:54 <Ralph> present+ MiaLipner

Unknown Ralph: present+ MiaLipner ←

15:36:55 <NickRuffilo> bill: "our task isn't what you can do with a fragment, but what you can do with it."

Bill Kasdorf: "our task isn't what you can do with a fragment, but what you can do with it." ←

15:36:57 <NickRuffilo> q+

q+ ←

15:37:00 <Ralph> [Mia arrives on the phone]

Unknown Ralph: [Mia arrives on the phone] ←

15:37:03 <ivan> ack NickRuffilo

Ivan Herman: ack NickRuffilo ←

15:37:29 <Ralph> Nick: without a package it's difficult to have a multi-page fragment

Unknown Nick: without a package it's difficult to have a multi-page fragment [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

15:37:47 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q? ←

15:37:48 <Ralph> ... e.g. you can't specify simply start and end page since there are pages in the middle

Unknown Ralph: ... e.g. you can't specify simply start and end page since there are pages in the middle ←

15:38:14 <Ralph> Bill: perhaps there is a fundamental requirement that a fragment identifies contiguous data\

Bill Kasdorf: perhaps there is a fundamental requirement that a fragment identifies contiguous data\ [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

15:38:34 <Ralph> Liisa: [some requirements would] assume a liner reading order

Unknown Liisa: [some requirements would] assume a linear reading order [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

15:38:42 <NickRuffilo> Nick: "Does a fragment need to be contiguous"

Unknown Nick: "Does a fragment need to be contiguous" ←

15:38:45 <tzviya> s/liner/linear

15:39:18 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "I assume people are familiar with CFI.  When he developed that list of 5 requirements, he said: 'lets take a look at these 2 potential specs, and lets see how well they fit these requirements."

Bill Kasdorf: "I assume people are familiar with CFI. When he developed that list of 5 requirements, he said: 'lets take a look at these 2 potential specs, and lets see how well they fit these requirements." ←

15:40:10 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers#Proposed_Strategy Proposed Strategy

Unknown Ralph: -> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers#Proposed_Strategy Proposed Strategy ←

15:40:15 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "CFI has a way to identify the things within the package."

Bill Kasdorf: "CFI has a way to identify the things within the package." ←

15:40:28 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Has the ability to step-through to find it's item."

...: "Has the ability to step-through to find it's item." ←

15:41:30 <NickRuffilo> ...: "As far is Ivan knows, it cannot identify down to the character."

...: "As far is Ivan knows, it cannot identify down to the character." ←

15:41:54 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

15:42:06 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "My point for that is that it's intimately defined on EPUB and xml and the current format of the manifest."

Ivan Herman: "My point for that is that it's intimately defined on EPUB and xml and the current format of the manifest." ←

15:42:44 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "Getting to Markus's earlier point.  If you have an epub, and you want to find a location within a textual item, CFI is a good solution.  Could it suffice - no - it doesn't meet enough of our requirements."

Bill Kasdorf: "Getting to Markus's earlier point. If you have an epub, and you want to find a location within a textual item, CFI is a good solution. Could it suffice - no - it doesn't meet enough of our requirements." ←

15:43:41 <NickRuffilo> ...: "PFRag - cannot traverse the document?  Maybe - if you use the fragment identifier appropriate to the mimetype, it lets you get inside the document."

...: "PFRag - cannot traverse the document? Maybe - if you use the fragment identifier appropriate to the mimetype, it lets you get inside the document." ←

15:44:24 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Should have a way to externally define fragment id sections.  Hands off the task of further fragment to another ID scheme that is appropriate to the MIMEtype"

...: "Should have a way to externally define fragment id sections. Hands off the task of further fragment to another ID scheme that is appropriate to the MIMEtype" ←

15:44:40 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "What's the end-point we want to get to?"

Markus Gylling: "What's the end-point we want to get to?" ←

15:44:58 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "I wanted to see if these 2 candidate specs let us get to where we want to?"

Bill Kasdorf: "I wanted to see if these 2 candidate specs let us get to where we want to?" ←

15:45:37 <Rick_Johnson> q+

Unknown Rick_Johnson: q+ ←

15:46:05 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "I keep ending up saying "it really doesn't matter"  What we really need is the fundamental pointing mechanisms.  If we select PFRag, it won't really matter as they won't be able to use the fragments."

Markus Gylling: "I keep ending up saying "it really doesn't matter" What we really need is the fundamental pointing mechanisms. If we select PFRag, it won't really matter as they won't be able to use the fragments." ←

15:46:57 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Define requirements, look for gaps, and find the identifiers that fit already based on mimetypes...  We have to begin with the actual functional means.  All else is an exercise for later."

...: "Define requirements, look for gaps, and find the identifiers that fit already based on mimetypes... We have to begin with the actual functional means. All else is an exercise for later." ←

15:47:18 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

15:47:27 <ivan> ack Rick_Johnson

Ivan Herman: ack Rick_Johnson ←

15:47:28 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "This gets to the 2 most important with hypothesis today.  We can't build it based off the future spec, but we better not be building something that we expect to be built today that doesn't work.

Bill Kasdorf: "This gets to the 2 most important with hypothesis today. We can't build it based off the future spec, but we better not be building something that we expect to be built today that doesn't work. ←

15:48:01 <NickRuffilo> Rick: "One of the things we love about CFI is that if you assert an ID on an XML, if the CFI isn't valid - is that covered in this?"

Unknown Rick: "One of the things we love about CFI is that if you assert an ID on an XML, if the CFI isn't valid - is that covered in this?" ←

15:48:17 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "It's part of the fail gracefully"

Tzviya Siegman: "It's part of the fail gracefully" ←

15:48:24 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Please explain"

Markus Gylling: "Please explain" ←

15:49:12 <NickRuffilo> Rick: "If you have an ID attached to an XML.  Editor comes in, creates a new version is created, but the CFI can still re-resolve the ID, despite it's new location."

Unknown Rick: "If you have an ID attached to an XML. Editor comes in, creates a new version is created, but the CFI can still re-resolve the ID, despite it's new location." ←

15:49:41 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

15:49:53 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Does that sound like marching orders - to list the fundamental requirements.  We have to attack the fundamental requirements.  The syntax is secondary."

Markus Gylling: "Does that sound like marching orders - to list the fundamental requirements. We have to attack the fundamental requirements. The syntax is secondary." ←

15:50:00 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

15:50:03 <tzviya> ack iv

Tzviya Siegman: ack iv ←

15:50:39 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "For me personally, the issue isn't the identifier, it's the duality of identification - whether part of the package is "part of the package" or it's on the web as an HTML file.  It's what worries me the most.  If I'm in chapter 1 in a book, which is package.  The book has an identifier..."

Ivan Herman: "For me personally, the issue isn't the identifier, it's the duality of identification - whether part of the package is "part of the package" or it's on the web as an HTML file. It's what worries me the most. If I'm in chapter 1 in a book, which is package. The book has an identifier..." ←

15:51:38 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Both CFI or the package identifier would identify chapter 1 is a very specific mechanism - starts with the package, goes to chap 1.  If the same book, part of the web - then the natural way of identifying the part is HTML.  So now there are two different ways to get to the same package.  That worries me the most.  How do we manage the duality

...: "Both CFI or the package identifier would identify chapter 1 is a very specific mechanism - starts with the package, goes to chap 1. If the same book, part of the web - then the natural way of identifying the part is HTML. So now there are two different ways to get to the same package. That worries me the most. How do we manage the duality ←

15:51:38 <NickRuffilo>  of offline VS offline?"

of offline VS offline?" ←

15:52:29 <NickRuffilo> ...: "compared to that, the rest of the items is important, but minor.  And I'm not sure what's the best way of doing that.  How the various cross-references within the book...  What happens if I make an annotation of a book/chapter while on the web, then go into offline mode?"

...: "compared to that, the rest of the items is important, but minor. And I'm not sure what's the best way of doing that. How the various cross-references within the book... What happens if I make an annotation of a book/chapter while on the web, then go into offline mode?" ←

15:52:31 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

15:52:36 <NickRuffilo> q+

q+ ←

15:53:09 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "Starting with the fragment identifier sounded like a good idea, but it's so dependent on the package and it's ID, that we can't focus on it."

Bill Kasdorf: "Starting with the fragment identifier sounded like a good idea, but it's so dependent on the package and it's ID, that we can't focus on it." ←

15:53:23 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "In one of the states, the way it's done is relied on a fragment ID.  "

Ivan Herman: "In one of the states, the way it's done is relied on a fragment ID. " ←

15:53:31 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "wouldn't you want it to use the same mechanism?"

Bill Kasdorf: "wouldn't you want it to use the same mechanism?" ←

15:53:50 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "We have to be careful of terminology, it's on the web, it's a "url" and not a fragment ID."

Ivan Herman: "We have to be careful of terminology, it's on the web, it's a "url" and not a fragment ID." ←

15:54:21 <NickRuffilo> ...: "If it's on the web, and it gets to chapter 2 - it has a fragment id.  What i'm looking for now is a fragment ID."

...: "If it's on the web, and it gets to chapter 2 - it has a fragment id. What i'm looking for now is a fragment ID." ←

15:55:34 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "we're disagreeing on terminology.  When I say "fragment" i'm using the specification term - which is in the URL spec.  To the outside world - to the web world - if the chapter is on the web, I do no use a 'fragment'"

Ivan Herman: "we're disagreeing on terminology. When I say "fragment" i'm using the specification term - which is in the URL spec. To the outside world - to the web world - if the chapter is on the web, I do no use a 'fragment'" ←

15:55:46 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "It's identification is not after the hash-mark."

Ivan Herman: "It's identification is not after the hash-mark." ←

15:55:47 <tzviya> URL spec: http://www.w3.org/Addressing/URL/url-spec.txt

Tzviya Siegman: URL spec: http://www.w3.org/Addressing/URL/url-spec.txt ←

15:56:14 <tzviya> URL WHAT WG: https://url.spec.whatwg.org/

Tzviya Siegman: URL WHAT WG: https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ ←

15:56:15 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "I don't know how to use this whole thing and rectify."

Ivan Herman: "I don't know how to use this whole thing and rectify." ←

15:56:18 <mgylling> ack Nick

Markus Gylling: ack Nick ←

15:56:27 <Karen> ack Nick

Karen Myers: ack Nick ←

15:56:39 <Karen> Nick: what is wrong with having the identifier live in the fragment

Unknown Nick: what is wrong with having the identifier live in the fragment [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ] ←

15:56:59 <Karen> …like my URL…and the fragment identifier goes into the package and does the appropriate things

Karen Myers: ...like my URL...and the fragment identifier goes into the package and does the appropriate things ←

15:57:08 <Karen> …is there a reason why we cannot use it?

Karen Myers: ...is there a reason why we cannot use it? ←

15:58:22 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: fragments never hit the server on HTTP - so that's what prevent us.  "

Ivan Herman: fragments never hit the server on HTTP - so that's what prevent us. " ←

15:58:24 <mgylling> ack Ralph

Markus Gylling: ack Ralph ←

15:58:24 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to mention absolute and relative identifiers

Zakim IRC Bot: Ralph, you wanted to mention absolute and relative identifiers ←

15:58:30 <mgylling> q+ Liisa

Markus Gylling: q+ Liisa ←

16:00:16 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Think of a scientific publication that has several parts - which has 1 fixed identifier (package).  How would you address the 2nd part of this research object.  "

Ivan Herman: "Think of a scientific publication that has several parts - which has 1 fixed identifier (package). How would you address the 2nd part of this research object. " ←

16:00:25 <NickRuffilo> Ralph: "Relative is pertinent"

Unknown Ralph: "I'm thinking that the concept of relative identifiers and absolute identifiers is relevant here and it would help to have some use cases to know the problem Ivan is describing" ←

16:00:46 <NickRuffilo> Alternate words for "fragment" http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/fragment?s=t

Alternate words for "fragment" http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/fragment?s=t ←

16:00:50 <mgylling> ack Liisa

Markus Gylling: ack Liisa ←

16:01:50 <NickRuffilo> Lisa: "POinting to an annotation is very difficult, especially since what is on the web is different than the local"

Unknown Lisa: "POinting to an annotation is very difficult, especially since what is on the web is different than the local" ←

16:02:15 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "Would it be useful to - probably Ivan and Rob..."

Bill Kasdorf: "Would it be useful to - probably Ivan and Rob..." ←

16:02:41 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "The annotation working group works only with things that are strictly on the web.  The problem I'm discussing is beyond their concern."

Ivan Herman: "The annotation working group works only with things that are strictly on the web. The problem I'm discussing is beyond their concern." ←

16:02:52 <tzviya> action Bill_kasdorf Create Fragment ID Functional Requirements with must have/should have/may have

Tzviya Siegman: action Bill_kasdorf Create Fragment ID Functional Requirements with must have/should have/may have ←

16:02:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Create fragment id functional requirements with must have/should have/may have [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2015-06-02].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-50 - Create fragment id functional requirements with must have/should have/may have [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2015-06-02]. ←

16:03:27 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

16:04:55 <Ralph> s/Relative is pertinent/I'm thinking that the concept of relative identifiers and absolute identifiers is relevant here and it would help to have some use cases to know the problem Ivan is describing/

16:09:56 <dauwhe> <br type="lunch"/>

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Dave Cramer: <br type="lunch"/> ←

17:00:57 <ivan> Topic: Pagination, Styling

(No events recorded for 51 minutes)

3. Pagination, Styling

17:01:07 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

17:01:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan ←

17:01:18 <tzviya> chair: mgylling

17:02:06 <tzviya> markus: the amount of pain and money that publishers put into styling and pagination is astronomical

Markus Gylling: the amount of pain and money that publishers put into styling and pagination is astronomical [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ] ←

17:02:15 <dauwhe> http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/

Dave Cramer: http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/ ←

17:02:22 <tzviya> ...dave has been working on pagination and latinreq

Tzviya Siegman: ...dave has been working on pagination and latinreq ←

17:02:30 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "We've had a brave night sent in - dave kramer - working exclusively on pagination.  Describing various aspects of things you can't do with CSS today.  Dave's work has been multi-faceted."

Markus Gylling: "We've had a brave knight sent in - dave kramer - working exclusively on pagination. Describing various aspects of things you can't do with CSS today. Dave's work has been multi-faceted." ←

17:02:41 <NickRuffilo> sorry - Markus not ivan

sorry - Markus not ivan ←

17:02:42 <ivan> -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/ Editors' draft

Ivan Herman: -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/ Editors' draft ←

17:02:55 <ivan> s/Ivan/Markus

17:03:20 <tzviya> scribenick: tzviya

(Scribe set to Tzviya Siegman)

17:03:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/night/knight

17:03:58 <tzviya> markus: what are candidates for pagination, what are next steps?

Markus Gylling: what are candidates for pagination, what are next steps? ←

17:03:59 <Ralph> [Alan Stearns arrives]

Unknown Ralph: [Alan Stearns arrives] ←

17:04:04 <Ralph> present+ AlanStearns

Unknown Ralph: present+ AlanStearns ←

17:04:47 <tzviya> ivan: let's clarify what the requirements of the IG are

Ivan Herman: let's clarify what the requirements of the IG are ←

17:05:11 <tzviya> dauwhe: my hope is to better understand current confusion

Dave Cramer: my hope is to better understand current confusion ←

17:05:23 <tzviya> ...there are technical and political issues

...there are technical and political issues ←

17:06:16 <tzviya> ...on specification level, if paginating a document, you are slicing it into pieces that CSS WG calls fragments

...on specification level, if paginating a document, you are slicing it into pieces that CSS WG calls fragments ←

17:06:34 <tzviya> ...the CSS WG is interested in approaching things at fundamental level

...the CSS WG is interested in approaching things at fundamental level ←

17:06:50 <tzviya> ...there is little understanding of how CSS works behind the scenes

...there is little understanding of how CSS works behind the scenes ←

17:07:34 <tzviya> ...Many CSSers are signatories of extensible web manifesto and enabling developers to use the building blocks of web themselves

...Many CSSers are signatories of extensible web manifesto and enabling developers to use the building blocks of web themselves ←

17:08:13 <tzviya> ...provide primitives and allow developers to create the polyfills

...provide primitives and allow developers to create the polyfills ←

17:08:22 <tzviya> ...thus evolved project Houdini

...thus evolved project Houdini ←

17:08:49 <dkaplan3_> https://wiki.css-houdini.org/

Deborah Kaplan: https://wiki.css-houdini.org/ ←

17:08:53 <tzviya> ...Houdini TF is joined task force of TAG and CSS WG to explain the magic of CSS

...Houdini TF is joined task force of TAG and CSS WG to explain the magic of CSS ←

17:09:54 <tzviya> ...goal is to expose the technical functionlality of rendering engines

...goal is to expose the technical functionlality of rendering engines ←

17:10:08 <tzviya> ...one of goals is exploring the CSS Box model

...one of goals is exploring the CSS Box model ←

17:10:59 <tzviya> ...As authors we do not have access to the calculations that go into the "magic" of calculating what a "page" is

...As authors we do not have access to the calculations that go into the "magic" of calculating what a "page" is ←

17:11:22 <tzviya> ...How do we create measurements to get to a location on a page? Create APIs to access pages? etc

...How do we create measurements to get to a location on a page? Create APIs to access pages? etc ←

17:11:36 <tzviya> ...This is necessary for pages, regions, multi-call

...This is necessary for pages, regions, multicol ←

17:11:51 <tzviya> ...Anything we come up with needs to work with all of these.

...Anything we come up with needs to work with all of these. ←

17:11:52 <astearns> s/multi-call/multicol/

17:12:34 <tzviya> Dauwhe: there is a section about overflow as well

Dave Cramer: there is a section about overflow as well ←

17:13:02 <tzviya> brady: essentially 2 specs - what is a page and how to hande the content

Brady Duga: essentially 2 specs - what is a page and how to hande the content ←

17:13:50 <tzviya> Dauwhe: less clear what will happen on Houdini side

Dave Cramer: less clear what will happen on Houdini side ←

17:14:05 <tzviya> ...Houdini will have a F2F in Paris in August

...Houdini will have a F2F in Paris in August ←

17:14:06 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

17:14:45 <tzviya> ...If we need to polyfill pagination, what primitives would make that easier?

...If we need to polyfill pagination, what primitives would make that easier? ←

17:15:04 <tzviya> ack iv

ack iv ←

17:16:27 <astearns> column balancing is a multicol-only feature as well

Alan Stearns: column balancing is a multicol-only feature as well ←

17:16:35 <tzviya> Johannes: everything has to world in all fragmentation aspects - one correction is that multi-column spans applies ONLY to columns

Johannes Wilm: everything has to world in all fragmentation aspects - one correction is that multi-column spans applies ONLY to columns ←

17:16:42 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

17:17:33 <tzviya> ivan: my understanding is that Houdini is the solution to solve pagination, but fragmentation and overflow seems to be happening in parallel?

Ivan Herman: my understanding is that Houdini is the solution to solve pagination, but fragmentation and overflow seems to be happening in parallel? ←

17:18:15 <tzviya> dauwhe: yes. we are approaching from 2 angles. We must build the primitives and we also need define regions, etc

Dave Cramer: yes. we are approaching from 2 angles. We must build the primitives and we also need define regions, etc ←

17:19:19 <tzviya> Johannes: my understanding is that interest in print from browsers, etc is lacking, but implementations based on regions etc may be used for columns

Johannes Wilm: my understanding is that interest in print from browsers, etc is lacking, but implementations based on regions etc may be used for columns ←

17:19:35 <astearns> printing in Safari used to be based on multicol as well

Alan Stearns: printing in Safari used to be based on multicol as well ←

17:19:35 <brady_duga> q+

Brady Duga: q+ ←

17:19:52 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

17:19:54 <tzviya> ...which is of interest for browsers (meaning that page is not of interest to borwser, but columns, regions are)

...which is of interest for browsers (meaning that page is not of interest to borwser, but columns, regions are) ←

17:19:56 <tzviya> ack br

ack br ←

17:20:24 <tzviya> brady: these feel like 2 completely separate things, not 2 approaches to the same things

Brady Duga: these feel like 2 completely separate things, not 2 approaches to the same things ←

17:20:49 <astearns> q+

Alan Stearns: q+ ←

17:20:59 <tzviya> ...one is old method of write a spec and see if it works, Houdini is a radical change to way CSS is developed

...one is old method of write a spec and see if it works, Houdini is a radical change to way CSS is developed ←

17:21:17 <tzviya> ...and it might get more traction

...and it might get more traction ←

17:21:40 <tzviya> ...not convinced that we will get page breaks if we just write a spec

...not convinced that we will get page breaks if we just write a spec ←

17:21:42 <mgylling> ack astearns

Markus Gylling: ack astearns ←

17:21:45 <tzviya> ack al

ack al ←

17:22:31 <tzviya> alan: agree with Brady. Houdini is more likely to come up with useful ways of pagination, but it is only half of bridge.

Scribe problem: the name 'alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown alan: agree with Brady. Houdini is more likely to come up with useful ways of pagination, but it is only half of bridge. ←

17:22:58 <tzviya> ...the low level APIs will be informed by the low-level realities that Houdini will expose

...the low level APIs will be informed by the low-level realities that Houdini will expose ←

17:24:12 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

17:24:16 <mgylling> ack ivan

Markus Gylling: ack ivan ←

17:24:27 <tzviya> Brady: intent will be to expose pagination spec that exists (not write on their own), hope to have declaritive specs that don't get in the way

Brady Duga: intent will be to expose pagination spec that exists (not write on their own), hope to have declaritive specs that don't get in the way ←

17:24:46 <dauwhe> http://dev.w3.org/houdini/box-tree-api/

Dave Cramer: http://dev.w3.org/houdini/box-tree-api/ ←

17:25:19 <tzviya> ivan: I agree with Brady. I am quite concerned with time involved. Pagination is one aspect of Houdini, which could take years.

Ivan Herman: I agree with Brady. I am quite concerned with time involved. Pagination is one aspect of Houdini, which could take years. ←

17:25:25 <astearns> s/low level APIS will be/high level APIs will be/

Alan Stearns: s/low level APIS will be/high level APIs will be/ (warning: replacement failed) ←

17:25:53 <tzviya> ivan: is Houdini going fast enough for this industry?

Ivan Herman: is Houdini going fast enough for this industry? ←

17:26:41 <tzviya> Dauwhe: I am more optimistic about Houdini because the people working on it are the people building the browsers. If they are working on it, it seems likely to ship

Dave Cramer: I am more optimistic about Houdini because the people working on it are the people building the browsers. If they are working on it, it seems likely to ship ←

17:27:07 <tzviya> ...there is not a lot of activity on list, but it seems like a lot of research is happening

...there is not a lot of activity on list, but it seems like a lot of research is happening ←

17:27:17 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

17:28:10 <tzviya> ...we have questions, and they might have answers. Perhaps we need better communication

...we have questions, and they might have answers. Perhaps we need better communication ←

17:28:39 <tzviya> Ivan: is there a way to influence the path of Houdini?

Ivan Herman: is there a way to influence the path of Houdini? ←

17:29:10 <tzviya> Deborah: What are we trying to communicate to them?

Deborah Kaplan: What are we trying to communicate to them? ←

17:30:23 <tzviya> Ralph: would it be useful for this TF to ask Houdini to demo how primitives paginate

Unknown Ralph: would it be useful for this TF to ask Houdini to demo how primitives paginate ←

17:30:26 <tzviya> ...?

...? ←

17:31:04 <astearns> q+

Alan Stearns: q+ ←

17:31:09 <tzviya> Dauwhe: It would be helpful to ask Peter Linss to show us what he means

Dave Cramer: It would be helpful to ask Peter Linss to show us what he means ←

17:31:28 <tzviya> q+ to invite PL to a meeting

q+ to invite PL to a meeting ←

17:32:38 <tzviya> Johannes: It would be useful to know if we needed to create a pagination polyfill atop a Houdini polyfill

Johannes Wilm: It would be useful to know if we needed to create a pagination polyfill atop a Houdini polyfill ←

17:33:06 <tzviya> dauwhe: would also need to know which of DPUB use cases are met by Houdini polyfills

Dave Cramer: would also need to know which of DPUB use cases are met by Houdini polyfills ←

17:33:26 <tzviya> ...and compare Johannes and Readium experiences

...and compare Johannes and Readium experiences ←

17:33:30 <tzviya> ack Ni

ack Ni ←

17:33:49 <astearns> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements

Alan Stearns: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements ←

17:33:59 <tzviya> Nick: do we have a requirements doc for Pagination?

Unknown Nick: do we have a requirements doc for Pagination? ←

17:34:26 <tzviya> Dauwhe: see Brady's list of pagination requirements

Dave Cramer: see Brady's list of pagination requirements ←

17:34:58 <tzviya> Nick: It would be great to get line by line annotation from Houdini to see what is supported

Unknown Nick: It would be great to get line by line annotation from Houdini to see what is supported ←

17:35:45 <tzviya> ...EPUB has mention of page requirements

...EPUB has mention of page requirements ←

17:35:58 <tzviya> brady: this stuff is covered in latinreq

Brady Duga: this stuff is covered in latinreq ←

17:36:06 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

17:36:51 <mgylling> ack astearns

Markus Gylling: ack astearns ←

17:36:55 <tzviya> ack ast

ack ast ←

17:37:32 <tzviya> alan: the part of Houdini that will address is the custom layout. We talk about box-tree, but that is a stepping stone to get to custom layout

Scribe problem: the name 'alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown alan: the part of Houdini that will address is the custom layout. We talk about box-tree, but that is a stepping stone to get to custom layout ←

17:37:42 <tzviya> ...there are other stepping stones as well

...there are other stepping stones as well ←

17:37:56 <tzviya> ...I echo Ivan's concern about how long this will take

...I echo Ivan's concern about how long this will take ←

17:38:16 <tzviya> ...I believe we need to continue working on existing and future polyfills for pagination

...I believe we need to continue working on existing and future polyfills for pagination ←

17:38:33 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q- ←

17:39:00 <tzviya> ...because I would like to evaluate polyfills vs Houdini because I want to be able to say about Houdini, here is how we can make it easier

...because I would like to evaluate polyfills vs Houdini because I want to be able to say about Houdini, here is how we can make it easier ←

17:39:12 <mgylling> ack tzviya

Markus Gylling: ack tzviya ←

17:39:12 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to invite PL to a meeting

Zakim IRC Bot: tzviya, you wanted to invite PL to a meeting ←

17:39:33 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

17:39:49 <Ralph> Tzviya: seems it might be good to invite someone from Houdini to talk with us

Tzviya Siegman: seems it might be good to invite someone from Houdini to talk with us [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

17:39:52 <tzviya> ...If Houdini does not make it easier, then we've done it wrong

...If Houdini does not make it easier, then we've done it wrong ←

17:40:03 <mgylling> scribe: mgylling

(Scribe set to Markus Gylling)

17:40:35 <mgylling> Tzviya: as Nick was saying we have LatinReq and Brady’s doc, but we need an itemized list of requirements, if anything missing we fill that in

Tzviya Siegman: as Nick was saying we have LatinReq and Brady’s doc, but we need an itemized list of requirements, if anything missing we fill that in ←

17:41:32 <mgylling> … then Dave, Alan and Johannes sitting down with members of Houdini to determine what they are working on now; that could be a taskforce meeting or whatever. To find out where we are and where we need to go, ask how we can help

... then Dave, Alan and Johannes sitting down with members of Houdini to determine what they are working on now; that could be a taskforce meeting or whatever. To find out where we are and where we need to go, ask how we can help ←

17:42:04 <tzviya> ack ivan

Tzviya Siegman: ack ivan ←

17:42:24 <mgylling> Ivan: to reinforce what you said Tzviya, feedback I got made me worried, the message was that there are no dpub related issues in CSS WG, makes me sense that that group is not conscious that pagination is a central problem

Ivan Herman: to reinforce what you said Tzviya, feedback I got made me worried, the message was that there are no dpub related issues in CSS WG, makes me sense that that group is not conscious that pagination is a central problem ←

17:42:33 <mgylling> … we will clone dave

... we will clone dave ←

17:42:51 <mgylling> … I am sure the CSS WG answer will be that we need to provide the resources

... I am sure the CSS WG answer will be that we need to provide the resources ←

17:43:05 <dauwhe> q+

Dave Cramer: q+ ←

17:43:30 <mgylling> Brady: does it make sense to attend Houdini meetings without being in CSS WG

Brady Duga: does it make sense to attend Houdini meetings without being in CSS WG ←

17:44:34 <mgylling> Johannes: its not only a matter that print hasnt been worked on, they are prioritizing what goes into browser. When you tell them I want something equivalent to a Latex rendering engine in the browser, they say no.

Johannes Wilm: its not only a matter that print hasnt been worked on, they are prioritizing what goes into browser. When you tell them I want something equivalent to a Latex rendering engine in the browser, they say no. ←

17:44:56 <mgylling> … need to focus on features that are not print specific

... need to focus on features that are not print specific ←

17:44:56 <tzviya> q+ to prioritize use cases before talking to PL

Tzviya Siegman: q+ to prioritize use cases before talking to PL ←

17:45:10 <mgylling> Dave: what matters is what the browsers implement

Dave Cramer: what matters is what the browsers implement ←

17:45:13 <tzviya> ack d

Tzviya Siegman: ack d ←

17:45:17 <astearns> some of the same APIs needed for pagination are also needed for handling basic overflow, which browsers are much more interested in

Alan Stearns: some of the same APIs needed for pagination are also needed for handling basic overflow, which browsers are much more interested in ←

17:45:20 <mgylling> ack tz

ack tz ←

17:45:22 <tzviya> ack tzv

Tzviya Siegman: ack tzv ←

17:45:22 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to prioritize use cases before talking to PL

Zakim IRC Bot: tzviya, you wanted to prioritize use cases before talking to PL ←

17:45:43 <mgylling> Tzviya: we talked about putting together use cases, we will need to prioritize.

Tzviya Siegman: we talked about putting together use cases, we will need to prioritize. ←

17:46:08 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

17:47:10 <mgylling> Dave: whats next? Talking to Houdini.

Dave Cramer: whats next? Talking to Houdini. ←

17:48:03 <Karen> q+

Karen Myers: q+ ←

17:48:04 <mgylling> … we will describe the importance of pagination, ask if they need functional requirements, ask what primitives might be needed.

... we will describe the importance of pagination, ask if they need functional requirements, ask what primitives might be needed. ←

17:48:45 <mgylling> Ivan: do you think its worth planning to have someone on their group in some weeks? Dave: we can try. Ivan: there is a sense of urgency here

Ivan Herman: do you think its worth planning to have someone on their group in some weeks? Dave: we can try. Ivan: there is a sense of urgency here ←

17:49:11 <mgylling> Dave: if we can start this conversation well before August so we can have something down on the ground at the F2F

Dave Cramer: if we can start this conversation well before August so we can have something down on the ground at the F2F ←

17:49:47 <mgylling> Ivan: easy for me to say, but really all the publishers around this table should try to find people to join the Houdini WG

Ivan Herman: easy for me to say, but really all the publishers around this table should try to find people to join the Houdini WG ←

17:50:05 <mgylling> … they will push back any new work because they dont have the manpower

... they will push back any new work because they dont have the manpower ←

17:51:03 <mgylling> action: Dave to email PLinns to start the pagination-in-houdini discussion

ACTION: Dave to email PLinns to start the pagination-in-houdini discussion ←

17:51:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-51 - Email plinns to start the pagination-in-houdini discussion [on Dave Cramer - due 2015-06-02].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-51 - Email plinns to start the pagination-in-houdini discussion [on Dave Cramer - due 2015-06-02]. ←

17:51:24 <tzviya> ack karen

Tzviya Siegman: ack karen ←

17:51:58 <mgylling> Karen: understand that CSS has a lot of things on its plate, is there also someone on TAG that should be involved (beyond Peter)

Karen Myers: understand that CSS has a lot of things on its plate, is there also someone on TAG that should be involved (beyond Peter) ←

17:52:10 <astearns> Peter and David are the TAG members most engaged with Houdini

Alan Stearns: Peter and David are the TAG members most engaged with Houdini ←

17:52:48 <astearns> (but they're both CSS members as well)

Alan Stearns: (but they're both CSS members as well) ←

17:53:30 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-houdini/ Houdini mail archives

Unknown Ralph: -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-houdini/ Houdini mail archives ←

17:53:50 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

17:55:51 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

17:56:36 <Ralph> Liisa: the lack of pagination cost ereader developers

Unknown Liisa: the lack of pagination cost ereader developers [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

17:56:45 <tzviya> liisa: it is very difficult for publishers to work in existing world because there is limited hyphenation, widow/orphan control

Scribe problem: the name 'liisa' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown liisa: it is very difficult for publishers to work in existing world because there is limited hyphenation, widow/orphan control [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ] ←

17:56:45 <Ralph> ... but it also costs publishers hugely

Unknown Ralph: ... but it also costs publishers hugely ←

17:57:27 <Ralph> ... I have to explain repeatedly that we do not have as much control over the layout as the editors demand

Unknown Ralph: ... I have to explain repeatedly that we do not have as much control over the layout as the editors demand ←

17:57:47 <tzviya> ...i can add page-break information, but the information may be lost because different systems interpret in different ways

Tzviya Siegman: ...i can add page-break information, but the information may be lost because different systems interpret in different ways ←

17:58:25 <tzviya> nick: there is also processing cost

Scribe problem: the name 'nick' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown nick: there is also processing cost [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ] ←

17:59:11 <tzviya> liisa: every browser engine has to figure out on its own how to intepret things like widows and orphans

Unknown liisa: every browser engine has to figure out on its own how to intepret things like widows and orphans [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ] ←

18:00:39 <tzviya> paul: take the conversation away from tradtional books and magazines. look at modular content

Paul Belfanti: take the conversation away from tradtional books and magazines. look at modular content [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ] ←

18:00:55 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

18:01:21 <tzviya> ...there has to be rich support for standard formats. if we stay framed in ink on paper, etc, we will miss an opportunity

Tzviya Siegman: ...there has to be rich support for standard formats. if we stay framed in ink on paper, etc, we will miss an opportunity ←

18:01:40 <mgylling> q?

q? ←

18:01:55 <tzviya> Ivan: we have to spell this out in real detail for browsers. We must draft in real detail what the problems are

Ivan Herman: we have to spell this out in real detail for browsers. We must draft in real detail what the problems are [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ] ←

18:01:57 <tzviya> ack ni

Tzviya Siegman: ack ni ←

18:01:59 <mgylling> ack Nic

ack Nic ←

18:02:25 <dauwhe> http://www.clickhole.com/blogpost/time-i-spent-commercial-whaling-ship-totally-chang-768

Dave Cramer: http://www.clickhole.com/blogpost/time-i-spent-commercial-whaling-ship-totally-chang-768 ←

18:02:28 <NickRuffilo> http://usabilitynews.org/the-impact-of-paging-vs-scrolling-on-reading-online-text-passages/

Unknown NickRuffilo: http://usabilitynews.org/the-impact-of-paging-vs-scrolling-on-reading-online-text-passages/ ←

18:02:41 <tzviya> nick: studies about benefits of scrolling vs. page swiping

Unknown nick: studies about benefits of scrolling vs. page swiping [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ] ←

18:02:52 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

18:02:53 <NickRuffilo> http://www.nngroup.com/articles/infinite-scrolling/

Unknown NickRuffilo: http://www.nngroup.com/articles/infinite-scrolling/ ←

18:03:52 <NickRuffilo> http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/33406/infinite-scroll-vs-pagination-in-e-commerce-websites

Unknown NickRuffilo: http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/33406/infinite-scroll-vs-pagination-in-e-commerce-websites ←

18:03:58 <ivan> Topic: Accessibility

4. Accessibility

18:04:03 <NickRuffilo> scribenick: NickRuffilo

(Scribe set to Unknown NickRuffilo)

18:04:09 <tzviya> present+ Robin Seaman

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Robin Seaman ←

18:04:20 <tzviya> Title: Accessibility

Scribe problem: the name 'Title' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Title: Accessibility [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ] ←

18:04:28 <clapierre> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-accessibility/blob/gh-pages/Agenda-20150526-dpub~a11y-bisg-collaboration.md

Charles LaPierre: https://github.com/w3c/dpub-accessibility/blob/gh-pages/Agenda-20150526-dpub~a11y-bisg-collaboration.md ←

18:04:56 <Ralph> present+ CristinaM

Unknown Ralph: present+ CristinaM ←

18:05:01 <NickRuffilo> "We all agree that accessibility is important.  Let's talk about collaboration between DPUB and BISG"

"We all agree that accessibility is important. Let's talk about collaboration between DPUB and BISG" ←

18:05:17 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

18:05:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan ←

18:05:20 <NickRuffilo> ...: "What format should the collaboration should take, what should be the goals of it."

...: "What format should the collaboration should take, what should be the goals of it." ←

18:05:40 <NickRuffilo> ...: "DPUB accessibility, BISG accessibility, then what form the collab will take. "

...: "DPUB accessibility, BISG accessibility, then what form the collab will take. " ←

18:05:51 <NickRuffilo> Robin: "I'm robin from Benetech, and chair of BISG."

Robin Berjon: "I'm robin from Benetech, and chair of BISG." ←

18:06:19 <NickRuffilo> We have a few cross-over BISG/DPUB groups

We have a few cross-over BISG/DPUB groups ←

18:07:08 <NickRuffilo> Charles: "What we've been doing is looking at the W3C WIPEG techniques and seeing what is relevant to DPUB.  Most of everything was relavent."

Charles LaPierre: "What we've been doing is looking at the W3C WCAG techniques and seeing what is relevant to DPUB. Most of everything was relavent." ←

18:07:24 <tzviya> s/WIPEG/WCAG

18:07:38 <NickRuffilo> ...: "We wanted to see what was missing from WCAG that dpub needed and we found about a dozen of topics that were missing."

...: "We wanted to see what was missing from WCAG that dpub needed and we found about a dozen of topics that were missing." ←

18:08:13 <NickRuffilo> ...: "These will be apendicies for our notes.  What are the best practices, etc.  Our next steps are to create this note and fill it out from our info that's existing or what can be enhanced on from WCAG"

...: "These will be apendicies for our notes. What are the best practices, etc. Our next steps are to create this note and fill it out from our info that's existing or what can be enhanced on from WCAG" ←

18:08:18 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

18:08:28 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Note is at a W3C level."

...: "Note is at a W3C level." ←

18:09:14 <NickRuffilo> ...: "we're just about finished all the specifics, so it's hard to say whats missing at this point, but we've come up with a few of the more important issues, and now we'll focus on the note, hopefully done before end of year."

...: "we're just about finished all the specifics, so it's hard to say whats missing at this point, but we've come up with a few of the more important issues, and now we'll focus on the note, hopefully done before end of year." ←

18:09:29 <tzviya> ack iv

Tzviya Siegman: ack iv ←

18:09:54 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "From practical level/relationship level, it might be better if we first publish a draft - which isn't final - then we go to WCAG with that draft and discuss it with them."

Ivan Herman: "From practical level/relationship level, it might be better if we first publish a draft - which isn't final - then we go to WCAG with that draft and discuss it with them." ←

18:10:11 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "I know they were involved with that, so they aren't in the dark..."

Ivan Herman: "I know they were involved with that, so they aren't in the dark..." ←

18:10:20 <NickRuffilo> Heather: "Yes, we were going to do that."

Deborah Kaplan: "Yes, we were going to do that." ←

18:10:49 <tzviya> s/Heather/Deborah

18:10:50 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Gene should be involved, as we had the discussion with her."

Ivan Herman: "Jeanne [Spellman] should be involved, as we had the discussion with her." ←

18:10:58 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: "We've had discussions with her."

Deborah Kaplan: "We've had discussions with her." ←

18:11:14 <Ralph> Michael Cooper as well

Unknown Ralph: Michael Cooper as well ←

18:11:17 <Ralph> for WCAG

Unknown Ralph: for WCAG ←

18:11:48 <Ralph> s/Gene/Jeanne [Spellman]

18:12:00 <HeatherF> q+

Heather Flanagan: q+ ←

18:12:04 <NickRuffilo> Robin: "We're attempting to demystify accessibility.  For high-level execs.  We're clarifying some of the high-level legal documents"

Robin Berjon: "We're attempting to demystify accessibility. For high-level execs. We're clarifying some of the high-level legal documents" ←

18:13:13 <NickRuffilo> ...: "What you need to know to create an accessible file.  George is helping with that.  Hopefully the work George is doing with the baseline document will give people some baseline.  We have phenominal participation.  It brings together lots of interest groups, distributors, etc.  We all find it a rousing meeting.  Lots gets discussed.  We talk ab

...: "What you need to know to create an accessible file. George is helping with that. Hopefully the work George is doing with the baseline document will give people some baseline. We have phenominal participation. It brings together lots of interest groups, distributors, etc. We all find it a rousing meeting. Lots gets discussed. We talk ab ←

18:13:13 <NickRuffilo> out how we collaborate with people who are doing what we're doing."

out how we collaborate with people who are doing what we're doing." ←

18:14:09 <NickRuffilo> ...: "There are so many people who have accessibility initiatives.  Tons of documents, lots of stuff going on, so thats why we need specific standards, policies, etc.  "

...: "There are so many people who have accessibility initiatives. Tons of documents, lots of stuff going on, so thats why we need specific standards, policies, etc. " ←

18:14:37 <Rick_Johnson> WIPO's ABC http://www.accessiblebooksconsortium.org/portal/en/index.html

Unknown Rick_Johnson: WIPO's ABC http://www.accessiblebooksconsortium.org/portal/en/index.html ←

18:15:35 <NickRuffilo> ...:" Top tips will be a critical component of the quick-start guide.  There was an accessibility panel.  To warm everyone up, we gave people a 10-tips document to summarize some of the best practices.  It caught fire, AAP, epub3 group...  It's grown to 14 tips, but we mainly stick to the top 10."

...:" Top tips will be a critical component of the quick-start guide. There was an accessibility panel. To warm everyone up, we gave people a 10-tips document to summarize some of the best practices. It caught fire, AAP, epub3 group... It's grown to 14 tips, but we mainly stick to the top 10." ←

18:15:53 <NickRuffilo> ...: "we're taking that spirit into the quick start guide to make accessibility accesibility."

...: "we're taking that spirit into the quick start guide to make accessibility accesibility." ←

18:16:18 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

18:17:15 <NickRuffilo> Heather: "We got into writing the guide.  We gathered a list of existing resources.  We discussed with George as well.  But all of this will be included in the guide.  The question is - how do we work with other organizations who are working on this already.  A very basic way we can jump into collaboration is to keep those updates going.  It makes

Scribe problem: the name 'Heather' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Heather Flanagan Heather Reid . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown Heather: "We got into writing the guide. We gathered a list of existing resources. We discussed with George as well. But all of this will be included in the guide. The question is - how do we work with other organizations who are working on this already. A very basic way we can jump into collaboration is to keep those updates going. It makes ←

18:17:15 <NickRuffilo> sense to include whatever finalized W3C specs/resources in the guide.  We're hoping to publish september.  "

sense to include whatever finalized W3C specs/resources in the guide. We're hoping to publish september. " ←

18:17:28 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

18:17:33 <NickRuffilo> sorry - the above wasn't heather - i'm name impared

sorry - the above wasn't heather - i'm name impared ←

18:17:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←

18:17:41 <NickRuffilo> heather: "Do you intend for this to be global?

Scribe problem: the name 'heather' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Heather Flanagan Heather Reid . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown heather: "Do you intend for this to be global? ←

18:17:45 <ivan> q- later

Ivan Herman: q- later ←

18:17:50 <tzviya> ack hea

Tzviya Siegman: ack hea ←

18:17:54 <NickRuffilo> Robin: "We'll be doing things global"

Robin Berjon: "We'll be doing things global" ←

18:18:00 <Karen> q+

Karen Myers: q+ ←

18:18:07 <tzviya> ack Bi

Tzviya Siegman: ack Bi ←

18:18:21 <NickRuffilo> ???: "We are going to focus on the US first, since there are alot of global differences, but we do want to think globally"

Julie Morris: "We are going to focus on the US first, since there are alot of global differences, but we do want to think globally" ←

18:18:42 <tzviya> s/???/Julie

18:19:17 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "what do i need to be aware of, and what do I need to know to do it.  It's not telling you how to do it.  It points you to resources on how to do it.  It doesn't provide you with technical stuff that W3C is providing, it's providing the high-level things for business and points to implementation.  It's a complimentary resource."

Bill Kasdorf: "what do i need to be aware of, and what do I need to know to do it. It's not telling you how to do it. It points you to resources on how to do it. It doesn't provide you with technical stuff that W3C is providing, it's providing the high-level things for business and points to implementation. It's a complimentary resource." ←

18:19:20 <tzviya> ack iv

Tzviya Siegman: ack iv ←

18:20:18 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "To compliment what you said, There is a separate group at W3C - the education and outreach group - for accessibility.  They do try to collect and write things about accessibility, with the caveat that there are differences for WCAG for websites and publications, so there may be a bunch of overlaps."

Ivan Herman: "To compliment what you said, There is a separate group at W3C - the education and outreach group - for accessibility. They do try to collect and write things about accessibility, with the caveat that there are differences for WCAG for websites and publications, so there may be a bunch of overlaps." ←

18:20:36 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Contact Sean Henry to find out what they're doing and avoid overlaps."

...: "Contact Sean Henry to find out what they're doing and avoid overlaps." ←

18:20:52 <tzviya> ack ka

Tzviya Siegman: ack ka ←

18:21:15 <NickRuffilo> Karen: "Sharon Rouche from Mobility is the chair of that group and excited to see accessibility in verticals."

Karen Myers: "Sharon Rouche from Mobility is the chair of that group and excited to see accessibility in verticals." ←

18:21:29 <NickRuffilo> Gene: "George - give quick pitch of the doc:"

Deborah Kaplan: "George - give quick pitch of the doc:" ←

18:21:31 <Karen> http://www.knowbility.org

Karen Myers: http://www.knowbility.org ←

18:21:39 <dkaplan3_> s/Gene/Deborah

18:21:44 <tzviya> s/mobility/knowbility

Tzviya Siegman: s/mobility/knowbility (warning: replacement failed) ←

18:22:14 <NickRuffilo> George: "Publishers have said 'tell me what I have to do to make my document successful'.  Even with top-tips, you don't know how far you have to go to make your document accessible.  It's becoming more important as we get closer to the americus treaty being announced."

Scribe problem: the name 'George' is ambiguous. It could be any of: George Walkley George Kerscher . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown George: "Publishers have said 'tell me what I have to do to make my document successful'. Even with top-tips, you don't know how far you have to go to make your document accessible. It's becoming more important as we get closer to the americus treaty being announced." ←

18:23:11 <NickRuffilo> ...: "I've talked to a person who says: 'it's best if the industry defines the base line for accessibility than the government.'  You can't have BISG or other groups declaring a baseline for anti-trust.  Hopefully we can drive, but not own, a document that is the baseline for accessibility."

...: "I've talked to a person who says: 'it's best if the industry defines the base line for accessibility than the government.' You can't have BISG or other groups declaring a baseline for anti-trust. Hopefully we can drive, but not own, a document that is the baseline for accessibility." ←

18:24:14 <NickRuffilo> ...: "There will be a difference between trade and education, and I would believe that eduPub would be clear about meeting requirements.  It would be an informal agreement.  As tools and reading systems improve and features become feasible/practical/usable I'm hoping we can move things up at that time.  We want to make sure that MathML gets moved u

...: "There will be a difference between trade and education, and I would believe that eduPub would be clear about meeting requirements. It would be an informal agreement. As tools and reading systems improve and features become feasible/practical/usable I'm hoping we can move things up at that time. We want to make sure that MathML gets moved u ←

18:24:14 <NickRuffilo> p in that baseline.  Support within reading systems is important for that now."

p in that baseline. Support within reading systems is important for that now." ←

18:24:54 <NickRuffilo> Gene: "Unless charles protests, I'm going to skip dpub IG taskforce next steps are.  I think that if you want to have say in what's next - attend our weekly friday meetings.  Or talk to us on the mailing list.  Doesn't need to be now."

Deborah Kaplan: " charles protests, I'm going to skip dpub IG taskforce next steps are. I think that if you want to have say in what's next - attend our weekly friday meetings. Or talk to us on the mailing list. Doesn't need to be now." ←

18:24:58 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/ Home page for the Accessibility Education and Outreach WG

Ivan Herman: -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/ Home page for the Accessibility Education and Outreach WG ←

18:26:06 <NickRuffilo> ...: "What we can get out of collaboration: One goal we're hoping from this meeting is everyone from the BISG accessibility and DPUB group will know what their next thing to do is.  One proposal is that our group can be a good liason between BISG and W3C. "

...: "What we can get out of collaboration: One goal we're hoping from this meeting is everyone from the BISG accessibility and DPUB group will know what their next thing to do is. One proposal is that our group can be a good liason between BISG and W3C. " ←

18:27:01 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

18:27:07 <NickRuffilo> ...: "If we say 'hey, a bunch of publishers should know about X, Y, and Z, we tell the BISG, and vice-versa.  One prospective goal is: each person from BISG says 'i'm going to come up with at least 1 accessibility standard that I know as a whole the publishing industry doesn't know about or understand."

...: "If we say 'hey, a bunch of publishers should know about X, Y, and Z, we tell the BISG, and vice-versa. One prospective goal is: each person from BISG says 'i'm going to come up with at least 1 accessibility standard that I know as a whole the publishing industry doesn't know about or understand." ←

18:27:25 <tzviya> q+ to talk about collab with WAI

Tzviya Siegman: q+ to talk about collab with WAI ←

18:27:37 <tzviya> q-

Tzviya Siegman: q- ←

18:27:52 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Then W3C can say: 'yeah, there are things we need to do about this.'  A year from now or 6 months from now we can review the recommendations and figure out what worked and what did not."

...: "Then W3C can say: 'yeah, there are things we need to do about this.' A year from now or 6 months from now we can review the recommendations and figure out what worked and what did not." ←

18:28:01 <Ralph> s/Gene: "Unless/Deborah: "/

18:28:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←

18:28:54 <dkaplan3_> DIAGRAM -- http://diagramcenter.org/standards-and-practices/content-model.html

Deborah Kaplan: DIAGRAM -- http://diagramcenter.org/standards-and-practices/content-model.html ←

18:29:01 <NickRuffilo> George: "the BISG accessibility group is fairly new.  There's ABC and the DAISY that is putting together materials.  We just need to consolidate and make sure everyone is saying the same things "

Scribe problem: the name 'George' is ambiguous. It could be any of: George Walkley George Kerscher . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown George: "the BISG accessibility group is fairly new. There's ABC and the DAISY that is putting together materials. We just need to consolidate and make sure everyone is saying the same things " ←

18:29:27 <tzviya> q+ to ask about working with WAI

Tzviya Siegman: q+ to ask about working with WAI ←

18:29:28 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Having a hub that can at least point people in the right direction.  That is hopefully something that will evolve out of all these activities."

...: "Having a hub that can at least point people in the right direction. That is hopefully something that will evolve out of all these activities." ←

18:29:31 <tzviya> ack Bi

Tzviya Siegman: ack Bi ←

18:30:14 <dkaplan3_> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+ ←

18:30:30 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "Something I'm hearing that resonates is that it wasn't a matter of finding the documentation the W3C had was bad, just that it's written for a technical audience - not very readable by business people.  Also found quite a bit of documents that people simply were unaware of."

Bill Kasdorf: "Something I'm hearing that resonates is that it wasn't a matter of finding the documentation the W3C had was bad, just that it's written for a technical audience - not very readable by business people. Also found quite a bit of documents that people simply were unaware of." ←

18:30:35 <tzviya> ack tzv

Tzviya Siegman: ack tzv ←

18:30:35 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about working with WAI

Zakim IRC Bot: tzviya, you wanted to ask about working with WAI ←

18:30:36 <NickRuffilo> ...: "For example, a primer."

...: "For example, a primer." ←

18:31:32 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "I've been attending the accessibility task force.  It's eye opening.  We actually sat down and picked an idea that we wanted to bring up with authors.  The W3C does actually have an education outreach for accessibility."

Tzviya Siegman: "I've been attending the accessibility task force. It's eye opening. We actually sat down and picked an idea that we wanted to bring up with authors. The W3C does actually have an education outreach for accessibility." ←

18:31:52 <tzviya> ack dk

Tzviya Siegman: ack dk ←

18:31:53 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Then our taskforce can be a liason taskforce."

...: "Then our taskforce can be a liason taskforce." ←

18:32:50 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

18:32:51 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: "The two things: the thing about W3C documentation - it is very great for what it is, and there are starting to be tutorials, but the fact that nearly every organization has a group that has to boil down WCAG, there is clearly a gap.  That's the value of having a W3C group.  But it's worth a try."

Deborah Kaplan: "The two things: the thing about W3C documentation - it is very great for what it is, and there are starting to be tutorials, but the fact that nearly every organization has a group that has to boil down WCAG, there is clearly a gap. That's the value of having a W3C group. But it's worth a try." ←

18:32:57 <tzviya> ack iv

Tzviya Siegman: ack iv ←

18:33:32 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Seriously, this kind of bridging is important.  I don't know the details of the document that the group produced.  I have read them, but a long time ago.  This must be done."

Ivan Herman: "Seriously, this kind of bridging is important. I don't know the details of the document that the group produced. I have read them, but a long time ago. This must be done." ←

18:34:16 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: "I'll give the examples we came up with:  The authoring tools guidelines 'assist authors with accessible templates' the success criteria get into the metadata to define if a document is accessibility."

Deborah Kaplan: "I'll give the examples we came up with: The authoring tools guidelines 'assist authors with accessible templates' the success criteria get into the metadata to define if a document is accessibility." ←

18:34:53 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

18:35:00 <NickRuffilo> ...: "No one knows that atag existing.  on the WAI mailing list, there was a long conversation 'but we can't do it, it doesn't belong in WCAG' and they didn't think of using atag."

...: "No one knows that atag existing. on the WAI mailing list, there was a long conversation 'but we can't do it, it doesn't belong in WCAG' and they didn't think of using atag." ←

18:35:08 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q- ←

18:35:50 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Another example: The ability to do basic text formatting that you can personally identify what item elements you can allow to change to allow for text formatting."

...: "Another example: The ability to do basic text formatting that you can personally identify what item elements you can allow to change to allow for text formatting." ←

18:36:15 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

18:36:32 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "Question for Julie - I want to know about ALL of those.  Although SOME of them are for publishers, some are for reading systems.  Is that within the scope of the start guide?"

Bill Kasdorf: "Question for Julie - I want to know about ALL of those. Although SOME of them are for publishers, some are for reading systems. Is that within the scope of the start guide?" ←

18:36:35 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

18:36:59 <NickRuffilo> Julie: "That's a good question - possibly an opportunity"

Julie Morris: "That's a good question - possibly an opportunity" ←

18:37:18 <tzviya> ack iv

Tzviya Siegman: ack iv ←

18:38:23 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "The history of WCAG VS the other CAGs is important to realize - and you reflext it here.  WCAG has been extremely successful in places like the EU, where it's gone into legislative power because it went to the largest constiuency around - those who produce webpages.  So the other two CAGs are much less in the limelight."

Ivan Herman: "The history of WCAG VS the other CAGs is important to realize - and you reflect it here. WCAG has been extremely successful in places like the EU, where it's gone into legislative power because it went to the largest constiuency around - those who produce webpages. So the other two CAGs are much less in the limelight." ←

18:38:39 <NickRuffilo> ...: "The fact that a bunch of other users aren't aware of this document isn't just true for publishing."

...: "The fact that a bunch of other users aren't aware of this document isn't just true for publishing." ←

18:38:44 <Karen> s/reflext/reflect

18:38:52 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: "It's something we might be in the position to help with."

Deborah Kaplan: "It's something we might be in the position to help with." ←

18:39:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←

18:39:33 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "At least for the authoring tool - there was a naive believe that no one would author HTML is notepad...  And we all see where that left us!"

Ivan Herman: "At least for the authoring tool - there was a naive believe that no one would author HTML is notepad... And we all see where that left us!" ←

18:39:41 <tzviya> ack bi

Tzviya Siegman: ack bi ←

18:40:20 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "One aspect of George's doc and the quick-start is 'who can do this for you' so there are resources out there that can handle things for you.  Organizations like benetech, etc."

Bill Kasdorf: "One aspect of George's doc and the quick-start is 'who can do this for you' so there are resources out there that can handle things for you. Organizations like benetech, etc." ←

18:40:29 <NickRuffilo> George: "This is all sync with epubtest as well"

Scribe problem: the name 'George' is ambiguous. It could be any of: George Walkley George Kerscher . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown George: "This is all sync with epubtest as well" ←

18:40:47 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: "Next steps: I would LOVE it if everyone at this table went home knowing what they're doing next."

Deborah Kaplan: "Next steps: I would LOVE it if everyone at this table went home knowing what they're doing next." ←

18:41:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph ←

18:41:15 <NickRuffilo> ...: "are we all happy with the 'liason' role?"

...: "are we all happy with the 'liason' role?" ←

18:41:47 <NickRuffilo> q+

q+ ←

18:42:06 <dkaplan3_> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+ ←

18:42:23 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

18:42:28 <NickRuffilo> Robin: "I am on the ABC task force, so I can be a join there."

Robin Berjon: "I am on the AAP task force, so I can be a join there." ←

18:42:52 <Julie> q+

Julie Morris: q+ ←

18:42:53 <NickRuffilo> Bill: "Deborah, you were saying the Dpub is W3C way of communicating., but BISG is a way to talk to publishing."

Bill Kasdorf: "Deborah, you were saying the Dpub is W3C way of communicating., but BISG is a way to talk to publishing." ←

18:43:34 <tzviya> ack de

Tzviya Siegman: ack de ←

18:43:40 <tzviya> ack dk

Tzviya Siegman: ack dk ←

18:44:28 <dauwhe> s/ABC/AAP/

18:44:58 <NickRuffilo> BISG is the high-level items, the technical is referred elsewhere

BISG is the high-level items, the technical is referred elsewhere ←

18:45:22 <NickRuffilo> Julie: "Perhaps there is a group, within BISG that would be good to have a discussion on gap analysis"

Julie Morris: "Perhaps there is a group, within BISG that would be good to have a discussion on gap analysis" ←

18:45:45 <tzviya> ack ni

Tzviya Siegman: ack ni ←

18:46:03 <NickRuffilo> Nick: "Where will things live"

Unknown Nick: "Where will things live" ←

18:46:22 <tzviya> ack iv

Tzviya Siegman: ack iv ←

18:46:49 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Minor practical details.  W3C is obsessed with everything being archived.  If you can use an e-mail list or something else archived, that would be very useful."

Ivan Herman: "Minor practical details. W3C is obsessed with everything being archived. If you can use an e-mail list or something else archived, that would be very useful." ←

18:46:54 <tzviya> ack ju

Tzviya Siegman: ack ju ←

18:47:41 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: We wil continue talking and plan communications around the summit.  And we'll be consulting on the documents

Deborah Kaplan: We wil continue talking and plan communications around the summit. And we'll be consulting on the documents ←

18:48:02 <Karen> Break

Karen Myers: Break ←

18:48:05 <Karen> rrsagent, draft minutes

Karen Myers: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

18:48:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen ←

19:06:15 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe

(No events recorded for 18 minutes)

(Scribe set to Dave Cramer)

19:06:33 <dauwhe> Topic: education and outreach

5. education and outreach

19:06:35 <ivan> Topic: Education & Outreach

6. Education & Outreach

19:07:06 <dauwhe> Nick: I have lots of slides but will go through them quickly

Unknown Nick: I have lots of slides but will go through them quickly ←

19:07:11 <dauwhe> ... then discussion!

... then discussion! ←

19:07:25 <dauwhe> ... we've had an awesome time so far... let's solve world hunger!

... we've had an awesome time so far... let's solve world hunger! ←

19:07:31 <dauwhe> ... this is epubweb buzz

... this is epubweb buzz ←

19:07:40 <dauwhe> ... communication, education, and messaging.

... communication, education, and messaging. ←

19:07:43 <dauwhe> ... this is PR

... this is PR ←

19:07:47 <dauwhe> ... 3 audiences:

... 3 audiences: ←

19:07:51 <dauwhe> ... digipub

... digipub ←

19:08:02 <dauwhe> ... 2. prospective tech members

... 2. prospective tech members ←

19:08:08 <dauwhe> ... 3. prospective business members

... 3. prospective business members ←

19:08:14 <dauwhe> ... each requires a specific voice

... each requires a specific voice ←

19:08:29 <dauwhe> ... goal is to keep them separate

... goal is to keep them separate ←

19:08:34 <dauwhe> ... focusing on internal members

... focusing on internal members ←

19:08:42 <dauwhe> ... focus on value of membership

... focus on value of membership ←

19:08:48 <dauwhe> ... remind on why they're members

... remind on why they're members ←

19:08:56 <dauwhe> ... promote more active membership

... promote more active membership ←

19:09:04 <dauwhe> ... positive reinforcement for good behaviour

... positive reinforcement for good behaviour ←

19:09:13 <dauwhe> ... for potential members

... for potential members ←

19:09:22 <dauwhe> ... explaining how contribution is possible

... explaining how contribution is possible ←

19:09:48 <dauwhe> ... to encourage implementation

... to encourage implementation ←

19:09:59 <tzviya> present+ Jeff Jaffe

Tzviya Siegman: present+ Jeff Jaffe ←

19:10:09 <dauwhe> ... letting new app developers learn about a11y, for example

... letting new app developers learn about a11y, for example ←

19:10:17 <dauwhe> ... for prospective business members

... for prospective business members ←

19:10:24 <dauwhe> ... explain how standards organizations work

... explain how standards organizations work ←

19:10:25 <Ralph> [Jeff Jaffe arrives]

Unknown Ralph: [Jeff Jaffe arrives] ←

19:10:28 <dauwhe> ... it's a black hole

... it's a black hole ←

19:10:33 <dauwhe> ... explaining how a standard works

... explaining how a standard works ←

19:10:48 <dauwhe> ... explaining how the industry can help shape standards

... explaining how the industry can help shape standards ←

19:11:01 <dauwhe> ... how it ultimately comes from a human need

... how it ultimately comes from a human need ←

19:11:16 <dauwhe> ... pagination is not a human need ;)

... pagination is not a human need ;) ←

19:11:22 <dauwhe> ... these are business requirements

... these are business requirements ←

19:11:37 <dauwhe> ... first step: what w3c does

... first step: what w3c does ←

19:11:42 <dauwhe> ... documentation, tutorials

... documentation, tutorials ←

19:11:49 <dauwhe> ... second step is more niche

... second step is more niche ←

19:11:55 <dauwhe> ... conveying message of what is DPUB

... conveying message of what is DPUB ←

19:12:01 <dauwhe> ... how do those standards work

... how do those standards work ←

19:12:11 <dauwhe> ... constant buzz is the goal

... constant buzz is the goal ←

19:12:29 <dauwhe> ... the biggest issue is that w3c should be as visible as bandaids

... the biggest issue is that w3c should be as visible as bandaids ←

19:12:30 <tzviya> q+ to talk about our gh repo of slides

Tzviya Siegman: q+ to talk about our gh repo of slides ←

19:12:36 <dauwhe> ... should constantly be out there

... should constantly be out there ←

19:12:42 <dauwhe> ... press releases

... press releases ←

19:12:48 <dauwhe> ... if we can do one action item per month

... if we can do one action item per month ←

19:12:55 <dauwhe> ... then you'll be aware

... then you'll be aware ←

19:13:07 <dauwhe> ... within a years time most publishers will be aware

... within a years time most publishers will be aware ←

19:13:24 <dauwhe> ... press releases, articles and editorials

... press releases, articles and editorials ←

19:13:41 <dauwhe> ... there are only a few journals in publishing

... there are only a few journals in publishing ←

19:13:50 <dauwhe> ... i'd like to build a relationship with them

... i'd like to build a relationship with them ←

19:14:01 <dauwhe> ... what's going on with a11y, for example

... what's going on with a11y, for example ←

19:14:11 <dauwhe> ... dbw, publishing perspectives...

... dbw, publishing perspectives... ←

19:14:18 <dauwhe> ... creating bonds so we can get our message out

... creating bonds so we can get our message out ←

19:14:23 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

19:14:27 <dauwhe> ... blog posts, webinars, web-based presentations

... blog posts, webinars, web-based presentations ←

19:14:38 <dauwhe> ... taking conference slides and putting them up in a central location

... taking conference slides and putting them up in a central location ←

19:14:44 <dauwhe> ... so they can easily be found

... so they can easily be found ←

19:14:48 <dauwhe> ... like TED

... like TED ←

19:15:10 <dauwhe> ... human readable documentation and guidelines

... human readable documentation and guidelines ←

19:15:21 <dauwhe> ... there's a business audience and there's the tech audience

... there's a business audience and there's the tech audience ←

19:15:36 <dauwhe> ... to start, build a set of executive summaries for the business user

... to start, build a set of executive summaries for the business user ←

19:15:42 <dauwhe> ... why it's important to their business

... why it's important to their business ←

19:16:00 <dauwhe> ... guidelines on how to build an executive summary

... guidelines on how to build an executive summary ←

19:16:18 <dauwhe> ... creating a social media presence

... creating a social media presence ←

19:16:22 <dauwhe> ... LinkedIn

... LinkedIn ←

19:16:39 <dauwhe> ... automatically post to various social media destinations

... automatically post to various social media destinations ←

19:16:44 <tzviya> qq?

Tzviya Siegman: qq? ←

19:16:47 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

19:16:50 <dauwhe> ... any one in group should be able to contribute

... any one in group should be able to contribute ←

19:16:55 <dauwhe> ... avoiding bottlenecks

... avoiding bottlenecks ←

19:17:35 <dauwhe> ... relationship building with media outlets

... relationship building with media outlets ←

19:17:37 <dkaplan3_> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+ ←

19:17:44 <dauwhe> ... human-readable documentation

... human-readable documentation ←

19:17:51 <dauwhe> ... high-level conceptual documents

... high-level conceptual documents ←

19:17:57 <dauwhe> ... i.e. executive summaries

... i.e. executive summaries ←

19:18:05 <dauwhe> ... guidelines for technical users

... guidelines for technical users ←

19:18:07 <tzviya> ack tzv

Tzviya Siegman: ack tzv ←

19:18:07 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about our gh repo of slides

Zakim IRC Bot: tzviya, you wanted to talk about our gh repo of slides ←

19:18:09 <dauwhe> ... that's it!

... that's it! ←

19:18:12 <dauwhe> tzviya: thanks nick!

Tzviya Siegman: thanks nick! ←

19:18:20 <dauwhe> ... I'll add a few links

... I'll add a few links ←

19:18:25 <dauwhe> ... we all want to do this stuff

... we all want to do this stuff ←

19:18:27 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/dpub

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/dpub ←

19:18:40 <dauwhe> ... the short minutes, for example, came out of a request for executive summaries

... the short minutes, for example, came out of a request for executive summaries ←

19:18:50 <dauwhe> ... here's a repo of our slides

... here's a repo of our slides ←

19:19:01 <dauwhe> ivan: and ADD TO IT!!!!!

Ivan Herman: and ADD TO IT!!!!! ←

19:19:07 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/blog/dpub/

Tzviya Siegman: http://www.w3.org/blog/dpub/ ←

19:19:07 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have a blog

Tzviya Siegman: we have a blog ←

19:19:16 <dauwhe> ... that's where the short minutes go

... that's where the short minutes go ←

19:19:23 <dauwhe> ... add to it. write for it!

... add to it. write for it! ←

19:19:32 <dauwhe> ... if you write for it, tweet about it!

... if you write for it, tweet about it! ←

19:19:45 <dauwhe> ... exec summary is a good idea

... exec summary is a good idea ←

19:19:56 <dauwhe> ... just did that for *CAG documents

... just did that for *CAG documents ←

19:20:03 <dauwhe> ivan: I do that too

Ivan Herman: I do that too ←

19:20:03 <jeff> present+ jeff

Jeff Xu: present+ jeff ←

19:20:29 <dauwhe> Nick: build everything with w3c in mind, so it can all become a broader thing

Unknown Nick: build everything with w3c in mind, so it can all become a broader thing ←

19:20:43 <dauwhe> tzviya: important to have an audience in mind; Karen has been hard at work on that

Tzviya Siegman: important to have an audience in mind; Karen has been hard at work on that ←

19:20:52 <dauwhe> ... having this be a group effort is important

... having this be a group effort is important ←

19:21:23 <dauwhe> Nick: having all of these resources on how to write these things--make it easy for people

Unknown Nick: having all of these resources on how to write these things--make it easy for people ←

19:21:43 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

19:21:46 <tzviya> ack dk

Tzviya Siegman: ack dk ←

19:21:53 <dauwhe> dkaplan3_: do we have a blog? I didn't know

Deborah Kaplan: do we have a blog? I didn't know ←

19:22:03 <dauwhe> ... do we clear it with someone if we want to post

... do we clear it with someone if we want to post ←

19:22:13 <dauwhe> ivan: if you're in the IG you have write permission

Ivan Herman: if you're in the IG you have write permission ←

19:22:22 <dauwhe> dkaplan3_: do you want us to ask permission?

Deborah Kaplan: do you want us to ask permission? ←

19:22:34 <dauwhe> Karen: maybe for light editiorial touch

Karen Myers: maybe for light editiorial touch ←

19:22:36 <Ralph> [Liam Quin joins by phone]

Unknown Ralph: [Liam Quin joins by phone] ←

19:22:46 <dauwhe> ... I have communication role at w3c

... I have communication role at w3c ←

19:22:57 <dauwhe> ... we can do light editing and advice

... we can do light editing and advice ←

19:23:08 <dauwhe> dkaplan3_: my second question. There's lots of us here

Deborah Kaplan: my second question. There's lots of us here ←

19:23:28 <ivan> Present+ Liam

Ivan Herman: Present+ Liam ←

19:23:29 <dauwhe> ... at my workplace, we want to get 1/2 posts/month, can divide up amongst lots of people

... at my workplace, we want to get 1/2 posts/month, can divide up amongst lots of people ←

19:23:40 <dauwhe> ... could queue up posts

... could queue up posts ←

19:23:43 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+ ←

19:23:52 <dauwhe> ... we could do 15 dpub posts in september

... we could do 15 dpub posts in september ←

19:24:07 <dauwhe> Nick: personally, I've started a timeline for the next year

Unknown Nick: personally, I've started a timeline for the next year ←

19:24:16 <dauwhe> ... when i'd like certain events to occur

... when i'd like certain events to occur ←

19:24:42 <dauwhe> ... what is that one action item per month, then we can find owners

... what is that one action item per month, then we can find owners ←

19:24:50 <dauwhe> ... we don't have a blog strategy

... we don't have a blog strategy ←

19:25:06 <dauwhe> ... if you want to write something, write it.

... if you want to write something, write it. ←

19:25:24 <jeff> q+

Jeff Xu: q+ ←

19:25:35 <dauwhe> ... but might be complicated with things that should be published by (digital) journal

... but might be complicated with things that should be published by (digital) journal ←

19:25:47 <tzviya> ack iv

Tzviya Siegman: ack iv ←

19:25:54 <dauwhe> tzviya: company blog posts could be reposted

Tzviya Siegman: company blog posts could be reposted ←

19:25:57 <dauwhe> ivan: blog is fine

Ivan Herman: blog is fine ←

19:26:02 <dauwhe> ... people have to know it's there

... people have to know it's there ←

19:26:26 <dauwhe> ... I'm more excited about regular entry to DBW or something like taht

... I'm more excited about regular entry to DBW or something like that ←

19:26:30 <dauwhe> s/taht/that/

19:26:41 <dauwhe> ... that's what I would emphasize

... that's what I would emphasize ←

19:26:55 <dauwhe> ... once they find us there, then they might come to the blog

... once they find us there, then they might come to the blog ←

19:27:07 <dauwhe> Nick: I'm assuming we have no mailing list, no buzz

Unknown Nick: I'm assuming we have no mailing list, no buzz ←

19:27:17 <dauwhe> ... first goal is to work with DBW on webinar

... first goal is to work with DBW on webinar ←

19:27:19 <pbelfanti> +q

Paul Belfanti: +q ←

19:27:32 <dauwhe> ... we could get a pretty good showing with w3c name

... we could get a pretty good showing with w3c name ←

19:27:46 <dauwhe> ... I have connections with most of the journals

... I have connections with most of the journals ←

19:27:53 <dauwhe> ... we could do something regularly

... we could do something regularly ←

19:27:58 <dauwhe> ... we're a name of authority

... we're a name of authority ←

19:28:02 <HeatherF> q+

Heather Flanagan: q+ ←

19:28:07 <tzviya> ack je

Tzviya Siegman: ack je ←

19:28:10 <dauwhe> ivan: with limited time and energy, we should focus there

Ivan Herman: with limited time and energy, we should focus there ←

19:28:26 <dauwhe> jeff: you're asking for content, and a community to read the content

Jeff Xu: you're asking for content, and a community to read the content ←

19:28:32 <dauwhe> ... we must have a huge mailing list

... we must have a huge mailing list ←

19:28:43 <dauwhe> ... we could let them know we're starting to have a discussion

... we could let them know we're starting to have a discussion ←

19:28:53 <dauwhe> ... for content, I'll volunteer to do the June blog

... for content, I'll volunteer to do the June blog ←

19:29:06 <dauwhe> Nick: can I do as press outreach

Unknown Nick: can I do as press outreach ←

19:29:24 <dauwhe> ... if it's Jeff, we can even do something like Forbes

... if it's Jeff, we can even do something like Forbes ←

19:29:39 <dauwhe> Jeff: for Forbes, I'll need help :)

Jeff Xu: for Forbes, I'll need help :) ←

19:29:49 <dauwhe> ... we did a nice thing for American Banker

... we did a nice thing for American Banker ←

19:30:05 <dauwhe> Karen: we've had volunteers for helping with webinars

Karen Myers: we've had volunteers for helping with webinars ←

19:30:14 <dauwhe> tzviya: markus and I have lots of presos

Tzviya Siegman: markus and I have lots of presos ←

19:30:22 <dauwhe> ivan: our presos are very technical

Ivan Herman: our presos are very technical ←

19:30:38 <dauwhe> Nick: i could write business explanation of technical presentation

Unknown Nick: i could write business explanation of technical presentation ←

19:30:45 <tzviya> ack pbel

Tzviya Siegman: ack pbel ←

19:30:45 <dauwhe> tzviya: I've done that too

Tzviya Siegman: I've done that too ←

19:31:16 <dauwhe> pbelfanti: it's important to acknowledge participants/contributors

Paul Belfanti: it's important to acknowledge participants/contributors ←

19:31:38 <dauwhe> ... if that acknowledgment is public, it helps with their managers, etc.

... if that acknowledgment is public, it helps with their managers, etc. ←

19:31:51 <dauwhe> Nick: that might be a good thing for the blog

Unknown Nick: that might be a good thing for the blog ←

19:32:07 <dauwhe> ivan: when I do meeting overviews, I chose a style of not mentioning names

Ivan Herman: when I do meeting overviews, I chose a style of not mentioning names ←

19:32:16 <dauwhe> ... maybe I should mention names

... maybe I should mention names ←

19:32:25 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's try

Tzviya Siegman: let's try ←

19:32:29 <tzviya> ack he

Tzviya Siegman: ack he ←

19:32:47 <dauwhe> HeatherF: Who is we? The W3C? DPUB?

Heather Flanagan: Who is we? The W3C? DPUB? ←

19:33:03 <dauwhe> Nick: We've been switching a lot. It's mostly DPUB

Unknown Nick: We've been switching a lot. It's mostly DPUB ←

19:33:09 <dauwhe> ... the royal we is W3C

... the royal we is W3C ←

19:33:39 <dauwhe> George: Benetech has just put in a grant to DOE, that will focus on DPUB

Scribe problem: the name 'George' is ambiguous. It could be any of: George Walkley George Kerscher . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown George: Benetech has just put in a grant to DOE, that will focus on DPUB ←

19:33:43 <dauwhe> ... that would be good blog post

... that would be good blog post ←

19:33:57 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have an assignment for june

Tzviya Siegman: we have an assignment for june ←

19:34:06 <dauwhe> ... we'll put together a plan

... we'll put together a plan ←

19:34:22 <dauwhe> ... and Nick will write for something like Publishing Perspectives

... and Nick will write for something like Publishing Perspectives ←

19:34:53 <dauwhe> [switching presenters]

[switching presenters] ←

19:34:55 <tzviya> action Nick create plan for DPUB PR

Tzviya Siegman: action Nick create plan for DPUB PR ←

19:34:55 <trackbot> Error finding 'Nick'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/users>.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Error finding 'Nick'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/users>. ←

19:35:23 <tzviya> action nruffilo create plan DPUB PR

Tzviya Siegman: action nruffilo create plan DPUB PR ←

19:35:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-52 - Create plan dpub pr [on Nicholas Ruffilo - due 2015-06-02].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-52 - Create plan dpub pr [on Nicholas Ruffilo - due 2015-06-02]. ←

19:35:47 <dauwhe> Topic: rechartering

7. rechartering

19:35:47 <Karen> Scribenick: Karen

(Scribe set to Karen Myers)

19:36:01 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe

(Scribe set to Dave Cramer)

19:36:07 <tzviya> chair: mgylling

19:36:08 <dauwhe> mgylling: expires in september

Markus Gylling: expires in september ←

19:36:20 <dauwhe> ... we've been working on new charter proposal

... we've been working on new charter proposal ←

19:36:28 <dauwhe> ... Ivan will show a first draft

... Ivan will show a first draft ←

19:36:44 <dauwhe> ... we anticipate modifications

... we anticipate modifications ←

19:36:56 <dauwhe> ... focus on how it differs from our current charter

... focus on how it differs from our current charter ←

19:37:13 <Ralph> -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html DRAFT Charter for next DPUB IG

Unknown Ralph: -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html DRAFT Charter for next DPUB IG ←

19:37:16 <tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html

Tzviya Siegman: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html ←

19:37:17 <dauwhe> ivan: the current charter was written we didn't have a clear idea of where we were going

Ivan Herman: the current charter was written we didn't have a clear idea of where we were going ←

19:37:21 <dauwhe> ... so it's very general

... so it's very general ←

19:37:50 <dauwhe> ... this charter does two new things

... this charter does two new things ←

19:37:57 <dauwhe> ... 1. It puts epubweb into the picture

... 1. It puts epubweb into the picture ←

19:38:14 <dauwhe> ... tries to describe work in terms of epubweb

... tries to describe work in terms of epubweb ←

19:38:29 <dauwhe> ... would look at all the technical issues

... would look at all the technical issues ←

19:38:42 <dauwhe> ... the doc includes extract from white paper

... the doc includes extract from white paper ←

19:38:54 <dauwhe> ... the important thing is that the group should look at the technical issues

... the important thing is that the group should look at the technical issues ←

19:39:02 <dauwhe> ... perhaps beyond the white paper

... perhaps beyond the white paper ←

19:39:19 <dauwhe> ... in doing so it's OK for the group to do technical specification work, but not a standard

... in doing so it's OK for the group to do technical specification work, but not a standard ←

19:39:51 <dauwhe> ... in the course of the work, the group has to identify those tech features that need standardization and are not covered by existing working groups

... in the course of the work, the group has to identify those tech features that need standardization and are not covered by existing working groups ←

19:40:12 <dauwhe> ... so we ask w3c to set up a new working group to do that feature

... so we ask w3c to set up a new working group to do that feature ←

19:40:20 <dauwhe> ... sortof like the annotation wg

... sortof like the annotation wg ←

19:40:31 <dauwhe> ... although that also had a CG

... although that also had a CG ←

19:40:41 <dauwhe> ... additional thing

... additional thing ←

19:40:58 <dauwhe> ... this group would act as meeting point between rest of w3c and what happens in IDPF on epub 3.1

... this group would act as meeting point between rest of w3c and what happens in IDPF on epub 3.1 ←

19:41:11 <dauwhe> ... lots of things in draft charter that are related to w3c standards

... lots of things in draft charter that are related to w3c standards ←

19:41:29 <dauwhe> ... it's for two years

... it's for two years ←

19:41:40 <dauwhe> ... that's the sense of it

... that's the sense of it ←

19:41:45 <dauwhe> ... anything else, ralph?

... anything else, ralph? ←

19:41:50 <dauwhe> Ralph: I want to hear discussion

Unknown Ralph: I want to hear discussion ←

19:41:56 <dauwhe> ivan: mechanics

Ivan Herman: mechanics ←

19:42:04 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

19:42:11 <dauwhe> ... according to our rules and traditions, we will issue advance notice to AC members, not a formal vote

... according to our rules and traditions, we will issue advance notice to AC members, not a formal vote ←

19:42:22 <dauwhe> ... might go out this week

... might go out this week ←

19:42:30 <dauwhe> ... then depends how much work has to be done on this charter

... then depends how much work has to be done on this charter ←

19:42:35 <NickRuffilo> q-

Unknown NickRuffilo: q- ←

19:42:42 <dauwhe> ... then we can send out charter for formal vote around the end of june

... then we can send out charter for formal vote around the end of june ←

19:42:48 <jeff> q+

Jeff Xu: q+ ←

19:42:51 <dauwhe> ... we might even be recharter before old one runs out

... we might even be recharter before old one runs out ←

19:43:00 <clapierre> q+

Charles LaPierre: q+ ←

19:43:02 <dauwhe> ... but we could also extend old charter if necessary

... but we could also extend old charter if necessary ←

19:43:06 <dauwhe> tzviya: question

Tzviya Siegman: question ←

19:43:18 <dauwhe> ... we put lots of epubweb language here

... we put lots of epubweb language here ←

19:43:19 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

19:43:23 <dauwhe> ... very tied to epub/idpf

... very tied to epub/idpf ←

19:43:26 <mgylling> q+ george

Markus Gylling: q+ george ←

19:43:42 <dauwhe> ... IDPF is responsible for specs

... IDPF is responsible for specs ←

19:43:55 <dauwhe> ... w3c is working on foundational stuff

... w3c is working on foundational stuff ←

19:44:06 <dauwhe> ... are we vision holders? Is that what we're supposed to do?

... are we vision holders? Is that what we're supposed to do? ←

19:44:25 <dauwhe> ivan: if there are specific technical issues, we'll address on case-by-case basis

Ivan Herman: if there are specific technical issues, we'll address on case-by-case basis ←

19:44:33 <dauwhe> ... whether it should be at idpf or w3c

... whether it should be at idpf or w3c ←

19:44:43 <dauwhe> ... for example, web packaging

... for example, web packaging ←

19:44:57 <pbelfanti> +q

Paul Belfanti: +q ←

19:45:01 <dauwhe> ... the webapps group may decide packaging isnt interesting

... the webapps group may decide packaging isnt interesting ←

19:45:09 <dauwhe> ... then we might take it up at DPUB

... then we might take it up at DPUB ←

19:45:24 <dauwhe> ... or there may be some things where natural home is idpf

... or there may be some things where natural home is idpf ←

19:45:28 <mgylling> ack jeff

Markus Gylling: ack jeff ←

19:45:50 <dauwhe> jeff: perspective in w3c team

Jeff Xu: perspective in w3c team ←

19:46:06 <dauwhe> ... later are two sections, deliverables and timeline, both of which are tbd

... later are two sections, deliverables and timeline, both of which are tbd ←

19:46:16 <dauwhe> ... when it goes for formal approval, those things are important

... when it goes for formal approval, those things are important ←

19:46:34 <dauwhe> ... Ivan would want your input on what the deliverables and timelines are

... Ivan would want your input on what the deliverables and timelines are ←

19:46:55 <dauwhe> ... to tzviya's point, if the deliverable is a vision of a future and timeline is 2025, that won't fly

... to tzviya's point, if the deliverable is a vision of a future and timeline is 2025, that won't fly ←

19:47:08 <dauwhe> ... so we should have some of those conversations now

... so we should have some of those conversations now ←

19:47:28 <dauwhe> ... a deliverable should be "we expect to analyze manifests"... or something like that

... a deliverable should be "we expect to analyze manifests"... or something like that ←

19:47:36 <dauwhe> ... or we'll have a task force to do xyz

... or we'll have a task force to do xyz ←

19:47:55 <dauwhe> ivan: can i add one thing

Ivan Herman: can i add one thing ←

19:48:09 <dauwhe> ... one major difference between WG and IG

... one major difference between WG and IG ←

19:48:24 <dauwhe> ... that difference is enforced strictly

... that difference is enforced strictly ←

19:48:30 <dauwhe> ... WG is much more stringent

... WG is much more stringent ←

19:48:39 <dauwhe> ... in IG it's less stringent

... in IG it's less stringent ←

19:49:01 <mgylling> ack cla

Markus Gylling: ack cla ←

19:49:01 <dauwhe> ... I could not write charter for EPUBWEB WG because I don't know the deliverables

... I could not write charter for EPUBWEB WG because I don't know the deliverables ←

19:49:05 <dauwhe> clapierre: a couple things

Charles LaPierre: a couple things ←

19:49:11 <dauwhe> ... one: I assume we stay as IG

... one: I assume we stay as IG ←

19:49:21 <dauwhe> ... two: is there a chance it will be rejected

... two: is there a chance it will be rejected ←

19:49:22 <dkaplan3_> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+ ←

19:49:48 <dauwhe> ivan: we have 400 members, some of whom might object

Ivan Herman: we have 400 members, some of whom might object ←

19:50:12 <Karen> Scribenick: Karen

(Scribe set to Karen Myers)

19:50:19 <Karen> Ivan: Maybe it's a good idea to emphasize this point

Ivan Herman: Maybe it's a good idea to emphasize this point ←

19:50:23 <Karen> …that it's continuation of the work

...that it's continuation of the work ←

19:50:42 <Karen> …but if there are items…the DPub area; the Accessibility notes that have begun will be continued and finalized in the new one

...but if there are items...the DPub area; the Accessibility notes that have begun will be continued and finalized in the new one ←

19:50:48 <Karen> ack George

ack George ←

19:50:48 <mgylling> ack george

Markus Gylling: ack george ←

19:50:52 <Karen> George: question answered

Scribe problem: the name 'George' is ambiguous. It could be any of: George Walkley George Kerscher . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown George: question answered ←

19:50:53 <mgylling> ack pbel

Markus Gylling: ack pbel ←

19:51:04 <Karen> Paul: Back to Tzviya's point on the vision

Paul Belfanti: Back to Tzviya's point on the vision ←

19:51:11 <Karen> …will this group be a steering committee?

...will this group be a steering committee? ←

19:51:25 <Karen> …Do we make it so…does action happen or does it go to a group and they say they are not interested

...Do we make it so...does action happen or does it go to a group and they say they are not interested ←

19:51:30 <Karen> …how much authority do we have?

...how much authority do we have? ←

19:51:36 <Karen> …Do we spin up a new group for example?

...Do we spin up a new group for example? ←

19:51:42 <Karen> Ivan: I have to ask my bosses

Ivan Herman: I have to ask my bosses ←

19:51:53 <Karen> Jeff: If there is a topic that you would like to persuade and existing WG to do

Jeff Xu: If there is a topic that you would like to persuade and existing WG to do ←

19:51:57 <Karen> …like CSS or WebApps

...like CSS or WebApps ←

19:52:03 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

19:52:03 <Karen> …it's always a negotiation.

...it's always a negotiation. ←

19:52:09 <Karen> …They get more demands than what they can do

...They get more demands than what they can do ←

19:52:27 <Karen> …if this steering committee determines that a WG is needed to own a new piece of technical turf

...if this steering committee determines that a WG is needed to own a new piece of technical turf ←

19:52:35 <Karen> …assuming that is sensible, you can spin up your own WG

...assuming that is sensible, you can spin up your own WG ←

19:52:42 <Karen> …you would need to have the technical expertise to do it

...you would need to have the technical expertise to do it ←

19:53:08 <Karen> Paul: if this group articulates well what the requirements are to create this EPUB/Web format and the deliverables to be in place for it to work

Paul Belfanti: if this group articulates well what the requirements are to create this EPUB/Web format and the deliverables to be in place for it to work ←

19:53:19 <Karen> …what happens to those requirements

...what happens to those requirements ←

19:53:25 <Karen> Jeff: Let's take an example

Jeff Xu: Let's take an example ←

19:53:48 <Karen> …Three years ago the Web and TV IG folks determined that media streaming needed to be done in HTML5

...Three years ago the Web and TV IG folks determined that media streaming needed to be done in HTML5 ←

19:53:53 <Karen> …so they brought that to that group

...so they brought that to that group ←

19:54:03 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

19:54:06 <Karen> …Also saw second screen was important and they started a Community Group

...Also saw second screen was important and they started a Community Group ←

19:54:15 <Karen> …that then spun up into a Working Group

...that then spun up into a Working Group ←

19:54:19 <Karen> …so many options are possible

...so many options are possible ←

19:54:26 <Karen> George: Did they put people into that WG?

Scribe problem: the name 'George' is ambiguous. It could be any of: George Walkley George Kerscher . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Unknown George: Did they put people into that WG? ←

19:54:36 <Karen> Jeff: yes, they did and helped bring new people

Jeff Xu: yes, they did and helped bring new people ←

19:54:48 <Karen> Ivan: This IG should be active in setting up the charter of a new Working Group

Ivan Herman: This IG should be active in setting up the charter of a new Working Group ←

19:54:55 <Karen> …a WG is much more accountable to what is in the charter

...a WG is much more accountable to what is in the charter ←

19:55:09 <tzviya> q+ to address how we are taking the same approach in DPUB as TV

Tzviya Siegman: q+ to address how we are taking the same approach in DPUB as TV ←

19:55:09 <Karen> …They don't have possibility to say it sounded like a good idea…otherwise group is out

...They don't have possibility to say it sounded like a good idea...otherwise group is out ←

19:55:20 <Karen> …This charter has a major influence on new WGs through your vote

...This charter has a major influence on new WGs through your vote ←

19:55:25 <Karen> ..and you have the power to call it

..and you have the power to call it ←

19:55:27 <mgylling> ack dkap

Markus Gylling: ack dkap ←

19:55:37 <Karen> Deborah: more of a comment on this specific draft

Deborah Kaplan: more of a comment on this specific draft ←

19:55:43 <Karen> …On Accessibility TF discussions

...On Accessibility TF discussions ←

19:55:47 <Karen> …Does DigPub mean EPUB?

...Does DigPub mean EPUB? ←

19:55:54 <Karen> …Go back and read the EPUB docs?

...Go back and read the EPUB docs? ←

19:55:57 <Karen> …no it did not

...no it did not ←

19:56:08 <Karen> …But now it looks like we're saying Digital Publishing needs EPUB

...But now it looks like we're saying Digital Publishing means EPUB ←

19:56:13 <Karen> Tzviya: Need a new name

Tzviya Siegman: Need a new name ←

19:56:19 <mgylling> s/needs/means/

19:56:32 <Karen> Ivan: if you look at the white paper, we go out of our way to say it goes beyond electronic books

Ivan Herman: if you look at the white paper, we go out of our way to say it goes beyond electronic books ←

19:56:51 <Karen> Deborah: Are we going to say our focus will be on EPUB/Web to exclusion of other digital publishing technologies

Deborah Kaplan: Are we going to say our focus will be on EPUB/Web to exclusion of other digital publishing technologies ←

19:57:00 <Karen> …that other things won't use what we are calling EPUB/Web

...that other things won't use what we are calling EPUB/Web ←

19:57:04 <Karen> Tzviya: We cannot do that

Tzviya Siegman: We cannot do that ←

19:57:12 <Karen> Ivan; we need more than brownie points for a good name

Ivan; we need more than brownie points for a good name ←

19:57:24 <Karen> Deborah: not just question of EPUB/Web, but what DigPub cares about

Deborah Kaplan: not just question of EPUB/Web, but what DigPub cares about ←

19:57:37 <Karen> …Do we care about Time.com and what they put up on HTML; is that Digital Publishing

...Do we care about Time.com and what they put up on HTML; is that Digital Publishing ←

19:57:45 <Karen> ..We went into the weeds in the Accessibility Group

..We went into the weeds in the Accessibility Group ←

19:57:50 <Karen> Jeff: If you look at what's up there

Jeff Xu: If you look at what's up there ←

19:57:54 <Karen> …is our vision for EPUB/Web

...is our vision for EPUB/Web ←

19:58:01 <Karen> …first visual of the charter is all EPUB/Web

...first visual of the charter is all EPUB/Web ←

19:58:13 <Karen> …which is what Deborah is saying; should not be the exclusive topic

...which is what Deborah is saying; should not be the exclusive topic ←

19:58:21 <Karen> Ivan: Yes, I take the point and should not try to solve it

Ivan Herman: Yes, I take the point and should not try to solve it ←

19:58:26 <Karen> Dave: the mission and the percents

Dave Cramer: the mission and the percents ←

19:58:32 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

19:58:36 <Karen> Ivan: many brownie points for new name

Ivan Herman: many brownie points for new name ←

19:58:41 <mgylling> ack Nick

Markus Gylling: ack Nick ←

19:59:16 <Karen> Nick: It sounds like we have…this group is straddling between W3C creating amazing specs for this ideal wonderful product and we have IDPF creating a very specific format

Unknown Nick: It sounds like we have...this group is straddling between W3C creating amazing specs for this ideal wonderful product and we have IDPF creating a very specific format ←

19:59:23 <Karen> …to suffice needs of industry to do publishing

...to suffice needs of industry to do publishing ←

19:59:29 <Karen> …and doing good job to keep the communication going

...and doing good job to keep the communication going ←

19:59:32 <Karen> …Not sure of timeline

...Not sure of timeline ←

19:59:40 <Karen> …what about communications of liaison and gap analysis

...what about communications of liaison and gap analysis ←

19:59:46 <Karen> …determine where EPUB is lacking in W3C

...determine where EPUB is lacking in W3C ←

19:59:50 <Karen> …and where W3C is lacking in EPUB

...and where W3C is lacking in EPUB ←

19:59:52 <Karen> …and from that

...and from that ←

19:59:59 <Karen> …if we cannot convince CSS to do pagination

...if we cannot convince CSS to do pagination ←

20:00:06 <Karen> …then maybe a WG on pagination is necessary

...then maybe a WG on pagination is necessary ←

20:00:10 <Karen> …but determine that it's a gap

...but determine that it's a gap ←

20:00:11 <clapierre> q+

Charles LaPierre: q+ ←

20:00:16 <Karen> …is that a direction to head in?

...is that a direction to head in? ←

20:00:20 <Karen> Ivan: I'm a bit afraid

Ivan Herman: I'm a bit afraid ←

20:00:26 <Karen> …the way you formulated it

...the way you formulated it ←

20:00:34 <Karen> …sounds like putting EPUB and the rest of W3C

...sounds like putting EPUB and the rest of W3C ←

20:00:44 <Karen> ..as an opposite to one another; not what you meant, but the way it sounds

..as an opposite to one another; not what you meant, but the way it sounds ←

20:00:53 <Karen> …it's more a matter of using more the term

...it's more a matter of using more the term ←

20:01:02 <Karen> …portable documents, a more neutral term

...portable documents, a more neutral term ←

20:01:06 <Karen> …not like EPUB everywhere

...not like EPUB everywhere ←

20:01:15 <Karen> ..to get the whole of publishing into the picture

..to get the whole of publishing into the picture ←

20:01:24 <Karen> …not this is what is missing from EPUB

...not this is what is missing from EPUB ←

20:01:30 <Karen> Markus: I understand your approach

Markus Gylling: I understand your approach ←

20:01:37 <Karen> ..but note the items we have called out

..but note the items we have called out ←

20:01:47 <Karen> …the incongruencies for EPUB/Web

...the incongruencies for EPUB/Web ←

20:01:52 <Karen> …the gap analysis you are talking about

...the gap analysis you are talking about ←

20:02:00 <Karen> …is instead the list of items that need work

...is instead the list of items that need work ←

20:02:04 <Karen> …i hope we are good on that list

...i hope we are good on that list ←

20:02:10 <Karen> …We may remove or add some from the list

...We may remove or add some from the list ←

20:02:17 <Karen> …but we have some clear directions

...but we have some clear directions ←

20:02:18 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

20:02:23 <mgylling> ack Ralph

Markus Gylling: ack Ralph ←

20:02:26 <Karen> Ralph: I deferred to Nick

Unknown Ralph: I deferred to Nick ←

20:02:32 <Karen> …Paul asked what influence this group has

...Paul asked what influence this group has ←

20:02:36 <Karen> …under this or some other charter

...under this or some other charter ←

20:02:53 <Karen> …The influence we have is related to the previous discussions about BISG and Accessibility

...The influence we have is related to the previous discussions about BISG and Accessibility ←

20:03:10 <Karen> …and Nick's discussion on the broader community to make sure their needs are addressed in the specifications

...and Nick's discussion on the broader community to make sure their needs are addressed in the specifications ←

20:03:25 <Karen> …So part of this group is to 'lobby' requirements say with CSS

...So part of this group is to 'lobby' requirements say with CSS ←

20:03:39 <Karen> …and we may not see their reaction being suitable

...and we may not see their reaction being suitable ←

20:03:49 <Karen> …More consistent theme, the more likely our requirements will get the priority

...More consistent theme, the more likely our requirements will get the priority ←

20:04:00 <Karen> …Deborah asked another question that I wanted to hear more discussion

...Deborah asked another question that I wanted to hear more discussion ←

20:04:07 <Karen> …this charter is focused on an important item

...this charter is focused on an important item ←

20:04:13 <Karen> …[EPUB/Web vision]

...[EPUB/Web vision] ←

20:04:18 <Karen> …and while we work on that vision with IDPF

...and while we work on that vision with IDPF ←

20:04:24 <Karen> …Does it make sense to do that all in one place

...Does it make sense to do that all in one place ←

20:04:30 <Karen> …or until we have right set of names

...or until we have right set of names ←

20:04:38 <Karen> …is there an EPUB/Web IG and the rest of digital publishing

...is there an EPUB/Web IG and the rest of digital publishing ←

20:04:46 <Karen> …there are a lot of important things to do

...there are a lot of important things to do ←

20:04:53 <Karen> …Do we bulk up this charter for EPUB/Web

...Do we bulk up this charter for EPUB/Web ←

20:05:01 <Karen> …or do we do as Deborah and I both read

...or do we do as Deborah and I both read ←

20:05:13 <dkaplan3_> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+ ←

20:05:15 <Karen> …and it's about one specific item but acknowledge that there are many other things to do

...and it's about one specific item but acknowledge that there are many other things to do ←

20:05:23 <Karen> …Don't have a strong feeling, but likely the chairs would

...Don't have a strong feeling, but likely the chairs would ←

20:05:37 <Karen> Markus: First observation is that we have severe resource constraints

Markus Gylling: First observation is that we have severe resource constraints ←

20:05:48 <Karen> …taking on everything that digital publishing could want makes me cringe

...taking on everything that digital publishing could want makes me cringe ←

20:05:53 <Karen> …We should take a few steps at a time

...We should take a few steps at a time ←

20:06:09 <Karen> …which steps are right for now is another question

...which steps are right for now is another question ←

20:06:25 <Karen> …But an over-ambitious charter that does not reflect our partiicpation ability today

...But an over-ambitious charter that does not reflect our partiicpation ability today ←

20:06:37 <Karen> Ralph: if we don't say we want to do those things, people may not come either

Unknown Ralph: if we don't say we want to do those things, people may not come either ←

20:06:49 <Karen> Tzviya: We want to keep this vision in mind as we work on digital publishing

Tzviya Siegman: We want to keep this vision in mind as we work on digital publishing ←

20:06:52 <Karen> …having a separate WG

...having a separate WG ←

20:07:00 <Karen> ..we don't get other members other than those who are already here

..we don't get other members other than those who are already here ←

20:07:08 <Karen> …approach that Markus and I were taking is as a guiding principle

...approach that Markus and I were taking is as a guiding principle ←

20:07:24 <Karen> …maybe we need to take a closer look at what we can accomplish over next few months

...maybe we need to take a closer look at what we can accomplish over next few months ←

20:07:35 <Karen> ..and we could couch that in terms of EPUB/Web as the vision and less of the deliverable

..and we could couch that in terms of EPUB/Web as the vision and less of the deliverable ←

20:07:38 <NickRuffilo> q+

Unknown NickRuffilo: q+ ←

20:07:39 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

20:07:45 <Karen> …I was going to add

...I was going to add ←

20:07:45 <mgylling> ack tzv

Markus Gylling: ack tzv ←

20:07:45 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to address how we are taking the same approach in DPUB as TV

Zakim IRC Bot: tzviya, you wanted to address how we are taking the same approach in DPUB as TV ←

20:07:57 <Karen> …Jeff mentioned the comparison to what Web TV group did

...Jeff mentioned the comparison to what Web TV group did ←

20:08:11 <Karen> …Dave is working in CSS, Tzviya and @ have been working in P&F

...Dave is working in CSS, Tzviya and @ have been working in P&F ←

20:08:16 <Karen> …spending time in the WG meetings

...spending time in the WG meetings ←

20:08:23 <Karen> …yes, there is a resource limitation...recruit

...yes, there is a resource limitation...recruit ←

20:08:25 <Karen> …We do same thing

...We do same thing ←

20:08:35 <Karen> …ARIA draft we are working on should have a first public working group soon

...ARIA draft we are working on should have a first public working group soon ←

20:08:37 <Karen> …it works

...it works ←

20:08:38 <mgylling> ack cla

Markus Gylling: ack cla ←

20:08:42 <Karen> Charles: quick question

Charles LaPierre: quick question ←

20:08:54 <Karen> …with EPUB/Web naming; is it EPUB or Web or both?

...with EPUB/Web naming; is it EPUB or Web or both? ←

20:09:00 <Karen> Tzviya: We'll call it Houdini book

Tzviya Siegman: We'll call it Houdini book ←

20:09:03 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

20:09:08 <mgylling> ack dkap

Markus Gylling: ack dkap ←

20:09:13 <Karen> Deborah: Also about the naming issue

Deborah Kaplan: Also about the naming issue ←

20:09:18 <Karen> …when we talk about our focus as a group

...when we talk about our focus as a group ←

20:09:25 <Karen> …i wonder if I made a misjudgment

...i wonder if I made a misjudgment ←

20:09:37 <Karen> …I assumed that because it's called EPUB/Web it's being driven by IDPF

...I assumed that because it's called EPUB/Web it's being driven by IDPF ←

20:09:43 <Karen> …or by W3C?

...or by W3C? ←

20:09:55 <Karen> Ivan: Markus and I have been writing down ideas

Ivan Herman: Markus and I have been writing down ideas ←

20:10:12 <Karen> Deborah: To extent it will exist as a thing, will it be driven from W3C and the DigPub IG?

Deborah Kaplan: To extent it will exist as a thing, will it be driven from W3C and the DigPub IG? ←

20:10:22 <Karen> Ivan: I would like to be able to say that neither in the sense that

Ivan Herman: I would like to be able to say that neither in the sense that ←

20:10:31 <Karen> …this is something that is driven by the two organizations in cooperation

...this is something that is driven by the two organizations in cooperation ←

20:10:39 <Karen> …how that is done admiistratively is a different issue

...how that is done admiistratively is a different issue ←

20:10:46 <Karen> …i think the vision is something that came out of

...i think the vision is something that came out of ←

20:10:52 <Karen> …a joint discussion of two parties

...a joint discussion of two parties ←

20:10:59 <Karen> …one from IDPF and one from W3C

...one from IDPF and one from W3C ←

20:11:02 <Karen> …that is how I look at it

...that is how I look at it ←

20:11:11 <Karen> …it's owned by both and not exclusively owned by two

...it's owned by both and not exclusively owned by two ←

20:11:23 <Karen> Deborah: that does imply more participation from DPub and EPUB3

Deborah Kaplan: that does imply more participation from DPub and EPUB3 ←

20:11:26 <Karen> …which is a standard

...which is a standard ←

20:11:35 <tzviya> BillM q+

Tzviya Siegman: BillM q+ ←

20:11:35 <NickRuffilo> q?

Unknown NickRuffilo: q? ←

20:11:46 <Karen> …I'm trying to understand the level of focus for EPUB /Web

...I'm trying to understand the level of focus for EPUB /Web ←

20:11:49 <pbelfanti> q+

Paul Belfanti: q+ ←

20:11:49 <tzviya> q+ BillM

Tzviya Siegman: q+ BillM ←

20:12:02 <Karen> …something to contribute to , or something that won't happen unless we put energy into it

...something to contribute to , or something that won't happen unless we put energy into it ←

20:12:16 <Karen> Ivan: part of that blue stuff has to be removed; clarify understanding

Ivan Herman: part of that blue stuff has to be removed; clarify understanding ←

20:12:27 <Karen> …Difference of what is there today; publishing on web or on Bluefire

...Difference of what is there today; publishing on web or on Bluefire ←

20:12:33 <Karen> …these kinds of differences should disappear

...these kinds of differences should disappear ←

20:12:39 <Karen> …all the rest is additional stuff

...all the rest is additional stuff ←

20:12:52 <Karen> …because we are bringingtogether two different worlds

...because we are bringingtogether two different worlds ←

20:13:02 <Karen> …it's clear these two organizations are working together

...it's clear these two organizations are working together ←

20:13:06 <Karen> …this is how the name came about

...this is how the name came about ←

20:13:17 <Karen> …i don't think either organization exclusively owns this

...i don't think either organization exclusively owns this ←

20:13:25 <Karen> Markus: I don't know either

Markus Gylling: I don't know either ←

20:13:47 <Karen> …the eventual nature of the WG that would take this into an implementable reality is not...

...the eventual nature of the WG that would take this into an implementable reality is not... ←

20:13:53 <Karen> …there is no ambition to start that WG

...there is no ambition to start that WG ←

20:14:02 <Karen> …but that list of building blocks that are necessary don't exist yet

...but that list of building blocks that are necessary don't exist yet ←

20:14:09 <Karen> …They would need to wait for the building blocks

...They would need to wait for the building blocks ←

20:14:12 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

20:14:22 <Karen> ..IG needs to do plumbing with other WGs within W3C to get something implementable

..IG needs to do plumbing with other WGs within W3C to get something implementable ←

20:14:42 <Karen> Bill: EPUB/Web is a constellation of specs to become more interoperable

Bill Kasdorf: EPUB/Web is a constellation of specs to become more interoperable ←

20:14:49 <Karen> Bill: Say a couple words about it

Bill Kasdorf: Say a couple words about it ←

20:14:52 <tzviya> ack BillM

Tzviya Siegman: ack BillM ←

20:14:59 <Karen> …part of what you are asking is a branding and marketing question, not a spec question

...part of what you are asking is a branding and marketing question, not a spec question ←

20:15:13 <Karen> …whether it will be called EPUB or XYZ will depend upon the vector we go on

...whether it will be called EPUB or XYZ will depend upon the vector we go on ←

20:15:21 <Karen> …if EPUB1 succeeds on the building block specs

...if EPUB1 succeeds on the building block specs ←

20:15:30 <Karen> …there will be more desire to call it EPUB

...there will be more desire to call it EPUB ←

20:15:45 <Karen> …but if it takes a radical invention that takes it further from EPUB, then we'll call it something else

...but if it takes a radical invention that takes it further from EPUB, then we'll call it something else ←

20:15:56 <Karen> …IDPF would prefer something that stays with EPUB and not undermine our current work

...IDPF would prefer something that stays with EPUB and not undermine our current work ←

20:16:10 <Karen> …but we are happy to encompass the possibility that the branding and technology will evolve

...but we are happy to encompass the possibility that the branding and technology will evolve ←

20:16:14 <Karen> …not sure if that is any clearer

...not sure if that is any clearer ←

20:16:16 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

20:16:20 <mgylling> ack Nick

Markus Gylling: ack Nick ←

20:16:22 <tzviya> q+ Liisa

Tzviya Siegman: q+ Liisa ←

20:16:24 <Karen> Nick: Two names to toss out there

Unknown Nick: Two names to toss out there ←

20:16:35 <Karen> …the packaged content group or published content group

...the packaged content group or published content group ←

20:16:48 <Karen> …difference between a free blog and a $9.99 ebook is the package

...difference between a free blog and a $9.99 ebook is the package ←

20:16:56 <Karen> …we have seen the package sell because it provides value

...we have seen the package sell because it provides value ←

20:17:04 <Karen> …things happen in the packaged content provides value

...things happen in the packaged content provides value ←

20:17:18 <Karen> …it's an attempt to distill what's done in the print world

...it's an attempt to distill what's done in the print world ←

20:17:27 <Karen> …and dertermine the value of packaged content in the spec

...and dertermine the value of packaged content in the spec ←

20:17:33 <Karen> …it gets rid of the EPUB/Web

...it gets rid of the EPUB/Web ←

20:17:38 <Karen> …and thinks about the value of the content

...and thinks about the value of the content ←

20:17:46 <Karen> …packaged content and published content

...packaged content and published content ←

20:17:58 <Karen> Ralph: brainstorming for now

Unknown Ralph: brainstorming for now ←

20:18:03 <Karen> Ivan: only worry I have

Ivan Herman: only worry I have ←

20:18:09 <Karen> …I understand what you say

...I understand what you say ←

20:18:15 <Karen> …is not having any reference to the web may mislead

...is not having any reference to the web may mislead ←

20:18:25 <Karen> …I would modify it a bit by saying packaged web content

...I would modify it a bit by saying packaged web content ←

20:18:32 <Karen> Nick: doesn't web mean online?

Unknown Nick: doesn't web mean online? ←

20:18:40 <Karen> Bill: think Open Web Platform

Bill Kasdorf: think Open Web Platform ←

20:18:45 <Karen> Dave: sound too much like Apps

Dave Cramer: sound too much like Apps ←

20:18:50 <Karen> Ivan; A bit like WebApps

Ivan; A bit like WebApps ←

20:19:01 <Karen> …I understand what you say and the importance of packaging we discussed earlier today

...I understand what you say and the importance of packaging we discussed earlier today ←

20:19:02 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

20:19:07 <Karen> Nick: something to think about

Unknown Nick: something to think about ←

20:19:08 <mgylling> ack pbel

Markus Gylling: ack pbel ←

20:19:25 <Karen> Paul: to the point about what organization governs it or how the orgs work together

Paul Belfanti: to the point about what organization governs it or how the orgs work together ←

20:19:38 <Karen> …a lot will depend upon how the existing specs exist or don't and how they evolve

...a lot will depend upon how the existing specs exist or don't and how they evolve ←

20:19:44 <Karen> ..EDUPUB specs combine together

..EDUPUB specs combine together ←

20:19:49 <Karen> …it's the alliance and an umbrella

...it's the alliance and an umbrella ←

20:19:58 <Karen> …if we continue to leverage existing specs, we create new specs

...if we continue to leverage existing specs, we create new specs ←

20:20:02 <Karen> …and who drives that

...and who drives that ←

20:20:19 <patrick_keating> q+

Patrick Keating: q+ ←

20:20:21 <Karen> …it will get more complicated, but deal with it when we get there

...it will get more complicated, but deal with it when we get there ←

20:20:26 <Karen> Nick: lots of products out there

Unknown Nick: lots of products out there ←

20:20:36 <Karen> …when you brand it more broadly, you allow for more future things

...when you brand it more broadly, you allow for more future things ←

20:20:44 <Karen> …EPUB has done a great job for an online container

...EPUB has done a great job for an online container ←

20:20:49 <mgylling> ack Liisa

Markus Gylling: ack Liisa ←

20:20:52 <Karen> Paul: agree with that, but need something that is sexier sounding

Paul Belfanti: agree with that, but need something that is sexier sounding ←

20:20:59 <Karen> Liisa: I want to go back to Deborah's question

Unknown Liisa: I want to go back to Deborah's question ←

20:21:05 <Karen> …Today the clear example we talked about today

...Today the clear example we talked about today ←

20:21:14 <Karen> …If we need to solve pagination, widows and orphans

...If we need to solve pagination, widows and orphans ←

20:21:21 <Karen> …those things likely have a place in a WG within W3C

...those things likely have a place in a WG within W3C ←

20:21:25 <Karen> …we have worked at IDPF

...we have worked at IDPF ←

20:21:39 <Karen> …knowing they were unsolved problems and we did not address them

...knowing they were unsolved problems and we did not address them ←

20:21:43 <Karen> …We leaned on HTML and CSs

...We leaned on HTML and CSs ←

20:21:47 <Karen> …and when they solve it they solve

...and when they solve it they solve ←

20:22:01 <Karen> …it. But now this group has the opportunity to raise the issue and try to solve it

...it. But now this group has the opportunity to raise the issue and try to solve it ←

20:22:07 <Karen> …it makes it better for the Web and for EPUB

...it makes it better for the Web and for EPUB ←

20:22:11 <mgylling> acl patri

Markus Gylling: acl patri ←

20:22:14 <mgylling> ack patri

Markus Gylling: ack patri ←

20:22:20 <Karen> Patrick: maybe one word of caution on 'what's in a name' thing

Patrick Keating: maybe one word of caution on 'what's in a name' thing ←

20:22:29 <Karen> …I hope that people don't get spec fatigue if we name it something else

...I hope that people don't get spec fatigue if we name it something else ←

20:22:35 <Karen> …We have had EPUB2 that was pretty successful

...We have had EPUB2 that was pretty successful ←

20:22:40 <Karen> …EPUB3 which was a lot of work

...EPUB3 which was a lot of work ←

20:22:56 <Karen> …but where is the traction in the authoring tools and consumer understanding

...but where is the traction in the authoring tools and consumer understanding ←

20:23:00 <Karen> …I understand the ideas here

...I understand the ideas here ←

20:23:05 <Karen> …and the discussions with other WGs

...and the discussions with other WGs ←

20:23:18 <Karen> …but at some point, I cannot keep up with what you were doing two years ago

...but at some point, I cannot keep up with what you were doing two years ago ←

20:23:21 <Karen> …maybe EPUB4.0

...maybe EPUB4.0 ←

20:23:30 <Karen> Ivan: We did have EPUB in our discussion in the past

Ivan Herman: We did have EPUB in our discussion in the past ←

20:23:36 <Karen> …fear we had is if we call it EPUB4

...fear we had is if we call it EPUB4 ←

20:23:43 <dkaplan3> q+

Deborah Kaplan: q+ ←

20:23:43 <Karen> …the people working on EPUB3 will run away

...the people working on EPUB3 will run away ←

20:23:50 <Karen> Patrick: that is valid

Patrick Keating: that is valid ←

20:23:54 <dkaplan3> q-

Deborah Kaplan: q- ←

20:23:57 <Karen> Ivan: We called it EPUB Next

Ivan Herman: We called it EPUB Next ←

20:24:05 <Karen> Patrick: that's how you will kill it

Patrick Keating: that's how you will kill it ←

20:24:09 <Karen> ..maybe the lack of a name

..maybe the lack of a name ←

20:24:15 <Karen> Tzviya: Valdemordt

Tzviya Siegman: Valdemordt ←

20:24:15 <mgylling> q?

Markus Gylling: q? ←

20:24:33 <Karen> Dave: EPUB Zero

Dave Cramer: EPUB Zero ←

20:24:38 <Karen> Markus: So what are next steps for the charter?

Markus Gylling: So what are next steps for the charter? ←

20:24:45 <Karen> Ivan: This will go out as an advance notice

Ivan Herman: This will go out as an advance notice ←

20:24:53 <Karen> …saying this is a draft under discussions

...saying this is a draft under discussions ←

20:25:02 <Karen> …So we'll have some discussions this Friday

...So we'll have some discussions this Friday ←

20:25:05 <Karen> …and in coming weeks

...and in coming weeks ←

20:25:07 <Karen> …we will make changes

...we will make changes ←

20:25:11 <Karen> …it is on GitHub

...it is on GitHub ←

20:25:16 <tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html

Tzviya Siegman: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html ←

20:25:20 <Karen> …so I would very much like if you submit comments or pull requests

...so I would very much like if you submit comments or pull requests ←

20:25:30 <Karen> …to make our iife easier in the coming weeks

...to make our iife easier in the coming weeks ←

20:25:35 <Karen> …When we feel it is mature enough

...When we feel it is mature enough ←

20:25:45 <tzviya> post issues to https://github.com/w3c/dpub-charter/issues

Tzviya Siegman: post issues to https://github.com/w3c/dpub-charter/issues ←

20:25:45 <Karen> …Formally speaking we then give it to W3C managment (w3M)

...Formally speaking we then give it to W3C managment (w3M) ←

20:25:55 <Karen> …and if they say yes, it goes out to W3C membership

...and if they say yes, it goes out to W3C membership ←

20:25:59 <Karen> …four weeks at the minimum

...four weeks at the minimum ←

20:26:06 <Karen> …but in summer we may give it six weeks

...but in summer we may give it six weeks ←

20:26:11 <Karen> …Then we look at the responses

...Then we look at the responses ←

20:26:16 <Karen> ..there are always comments coming

..there are always comments coming ←

20:26:21 <Karen> …We take the comments into account

...We take the comments into account ←

20:26:31 <Karen> …If there are formal objections, then we have to deal with it

...If there are formal objections, then we have to deal with it ←

20:26:44 <Karen> Ralph: The current charter ends Sept

Unknown Ralph: The current charter ends Sept ←

20:26:49 <Karen> …hope we want to continue meeting

...hope we want to continue meeting ←

20:26:59 <Karen> …We want to have a new charter we are comfortable with by July 1

...We want to have a new charter we are comfortable with by July 1 ←

20:27:05 <Karen> …so sharpen the pencils

...so sharpen the pencils ←

20:27:14 <tzviya> q?

Tzviya Siegman: q? ←

20:27:16 <Karen> Markus: Any more questions

Markus Gylling: Any more questions ←

20:27:26 <Karen> Brady: Japan does fall outside of our charter

Brady Duga: Japan does fall outside of our charter ←

20:27:32 <Karen> …it is cutting plane reservations short

...it is cutting plane reservations short ←

20:27:41 <Karen> Tzviya: We are on the preliminary agenda

Tzviya Siegman: We are on the preliminary agenda ←

20:27:43 <jeff> q+

Jeff Xu: q+ ←

20:27:52 <Karen> Ivan: If we can get charter done by end of June

Ivan Herman: If we can get charter done by end of June ←

20:28:09 <Karen> …then I do not expect W3M objecting to extend the current charter until procedure ends

...then I do not expect W3M objecting to extend the current charter until procedure ends ←

20:28:10 <tzviya> ack jeff

Tzviya Siegman: ack jeff ←

20:28:11 <Karen> ack Jeff

ack Jeff ←

20:28:20 <Karen> Jeff: for all the comments that Ivan made to explain the process

Jeff Xu: for all the comments that Ivan made to explain the process ←

20:28:28 <Karen> …I am not aware of anyone who objects to this activity

...I am not aware of anyone who objects to this activity ←

20:28:46 <Karen> …correct, we may have surprises, but unlikely to have objections from a planning perspective

...correct, we may have surprises, but unlikely to have objections from a planning perspective ←

20:28:53 <Karen> …sufficient apathy should be a guideline

...sufficient apathy should be a guideline ←

20:29:19 <Karen> …at least 5 percent of membership should join

...at least 5 percent of membership should join ←

20:29:28 <Karen> …If everyone remembers to vote and wants to continue

...If everyone remembers to vote and wants to continue ←

20:29:37 <Karen> …unless we put something surprising acidic in the charter

...unless we put something surprising acidic in the charter ←

20:29:52 <Karen> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes ←

20:29:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen ←

20:29:59 <Karen> Markus: with 15 seconds to go...

Markus Gylling: with 15 seconds to go... ←

20:30:06 <Karen> …WebEx on Monday

...WebEx on Monday ←

20:30:12 <Karen> …We thank you all for coming today

...We thank you all for coming today ←

20:30:23 <Karen> Tzviya: and thank Phil for hosting us today

Tzviya Siegman: and thank Phil for hosting us today ←

20:30:26 <Karen> [Applause]

[Applause] ←

20:30:34 <Karen> …and thank Nick for the peanut butter treat

...and thank Nick for the peanut butter treat ←

20:30:39 <Karen> [Meeting Adjourns]

[Meeting Adjourns] ←

20:30:46 <Karen> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes ←

20:30:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen ←

Formatted by CommonScribe