edit

Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

Minutes of 12 May 2014

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014May/0011.html
Seen
Alan Stearns, Ben Ko, Bert Bos, Brady Duga, Dave Cramer, David Stroup, Frederick Hirsch, Gerardo Capiel, Ivan Herman, Liam Quin, Liza Daly, Luc Audrain, Madi Solomon, Markus Gylling, Michael Miller, Peter Krautzberger, Phil Madans, Shinyu Murakami, Tzviya Siegman, Unknown Bill_Kasdorf, Unknown TimCole, Unknown dkaplan3, Vladimir Levantovsky
Regrets
Phil Madans
Chair
Liza Daly
Scribe
Peter Krautzberger
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics

There are some format problems with the chatlog. Please correct them and reload this page. They are labeled on this page in a red box, like this message.

It may be helpful to

14:17:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-irc

14:17:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public

14:17:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be dpub

14:17:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 43 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 43 minutes

14:17:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:17:13 <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2014
14:17:20 <ivan> Chair: Liza daly
14:18:01 <ivan> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014May/0011.html
14:19:57 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

14:19:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

14:21:54 <ivan> Regrets: Vlad
14:22:17 <ivan> Regrets: Philm
14:22:23 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

14:22:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

14:23:03 <ivan> Regrets+ Vlas

Ivan Herman: Regrets+ Vlad

14:23:06 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

14:23:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

14:23:21 <ivan> s/Vlas/Vlad/
14:23:41 <ivan> Chair: Liza Daly
14:54:46 <AH_Miller> Mike Miller from Antenna House has joined

(No events recorded for 31 minutes)

Michael Miller: Mike Miller from Antenna House has joined

14:55:45 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started

14:55:52 <Zakim> + +1.617.453.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.453.aaaa

14:56:00 <Zakim> + +1.240.421.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.240.421.aabb

14:56:15 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:56:15 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:56:17 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:56:46 <ivan> zakim, aabb is AH_Miller

Ivan Herman: zakim, aabb is AH_Miller

14:56:46 <Zakim> +AH_Miller; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AH_Miller; got it

14:56:59 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is Liza

Ivan Herman: zakim, aaaa is Liza

14:56:59 <Zakim> +Liza; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Liza; got it

14:57:29 <Zakim> + +49.228.36.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.228.36.aacc

14:57:37 <Zakim> + +1.617.439.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.439.aadd

14:58:00 <ivan> zakim, aacc is pkra

Ivan Herman: zakim, aacc is pkra

14:58:00 <Zakim> +pkra; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra; got it

14:58:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:58:11 <fjh> zakim, ipcaller is me

Frederick Hirsch: zakim, ipcaller is me

14:58:12 <Zakim> +fjh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +fjh; got it

14:58:30 <ivan> zakim, aadd is dkaplan3

Ivan Herman: zakim, aadd is dkaplan3

14:58:30 <Zakim> +dkaplan3; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dkaplan3; got it

14:59:01 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

14:59:02 <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.917.207.aaee

14:59:12 <dauwhe> Zakim, aaee is me

Dave Cramer: Zakim, aaee is me

14:59:12 <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dauwhe; got it

14:59:28 <murakami> zakim, ??P10 is me

Shinyu Murakami: zakim, ??P10 is me

14:59:28 <Zakim> +murakami; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +murakami; got it

14:59:33 <ivan> zakim, ??P10 is murakami

Ivan Herman: zakim, ??P10 is murakami

14:59:33 <Zakim> I already had ??P10 as murakami, ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P10 as murakami, ivan

15:00:07 <Zakim> +Tzviya

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tzviya

15:00:15 <dauwhe> Zakim, why have you forgotten us?

Dave Cramer: Zakim, why have you forgotten us?

15:00:15 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dauwhe.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, dauwhe.

15:00:56 <mgylling> zakim, code?

Markus Gylling: zakim, code?

15:00:56 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mgylling

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mgylling

15:00:57 <fjh> zakim, who is your daddy?

Frederick Hirsch: zakim, who is your daddy?

15:00:58 <Zakim> Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, fjh

15:01:09 <Zakim> + +1.734.904.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.734.904.aaff

15:01:10 <Zakim> +Stearns

Zakim IRC Bot: +Stearns

15:01:13 <Zakim> +??P20

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P20

15:01:23 <Zakim> + +1.917.447.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.917.447.aagg

15:01:24 <ivan> zakim, aaff is Bill_Kasdorf

Ivan Herman: zakim, aaff is Bill_Kasdorf

15:01:24 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Bill_Kasdorf; got it

15:01:27 <mgylling> zakim, ??P20 is me

Markus Gylling: zakim, ??P20 is me

15:01:27 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mgylling; got it

15:01:39 <Zakim> + +1.217.244.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.217.244.aahh

15:01:43 <Zakim> - +1.217.244.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.217.244.aahh

15:01:51 <ivan> zakim, aagg is benjaminsko

Ivan Herman: zakim, aagg is benjaminsko

15:01:51 <Zakim> +benjaminsko; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +benjaminsko; got it

15:01:54 <Zakim> +duga

Zakim IRC Bot: +duga

15:02:09 <Zakim> + +33.1.41.23.aaii

Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.1.41.23.aaii

15:02:30 <Zakim> +Bert

Zakim IRC Bot: +Bert

15:02:33 <ivan> zakim, aaii is Luc

Ivan Herman: zakim, aaii is Luc

15:02:33 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

15:02:35 <Zakim> + +1.217.244.aajj

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.217.244.aajj

15:02:46 <Zakim> + +1.201.783.aakk

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.201.783.aakk

15:02:52 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

15:02:57 <Zakim> + +1.585.217.aall

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.585.217.aall

15:03:03 <gcapiel> zakim, ??P8 is me

Gerardo Capiel: zakim, ??P8 is me

15:03:03 <Zakim> +gcapiel; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gcapiel; got it

15:03:03 <astearns> you can add your number/name here

Alan Stearns: you can add your number/name here

15:03:05 <astearns> http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3

Alan Stearns: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3

15:03:13 <ivan> zakim, pbelfanti

Ivan Herman: zakim, pbelfanti

15:03:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pbelfanti', ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'pbelfanti', ivan

15:03:23 <ivan> zakim aajj is pbelfanti

Ivan Herman: zakim aajj is pbelfanti

15:03:41 <ivan> zakim, aajj is TimCole

Ivan Herman: zakim, aajj is TimCole

15:03:41 <Zakim> +TimCole; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TimCole; got it

15:03:47 <david_stroup> 585 - stroup

David Stroup: 585 - stroup

15:04:00 <ivan> zakim, 585 is david_stroup

Ivan Herman: zakim, 585 is david_stroup

15:04:00 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named '585'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named '585'

15:04:11 <ivan> zakim, aaii is david_stroup

Ivan Herman: zakim, aaii is david_stroup

15:04:11 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'aaii'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'aaii'

15:04:31 <ivan> zakim, aall is david_stroup

Ivan Herman: zakim, aall is david_stroup

15:04:32 <Zakim> +david_stroup; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +david_stroup; got it

15:04:39 <liza> :(

Liza Daly: :(

15:04:48 <fjh> zakim, who is here?

Frederick Hirsch: zakim, who is here?

15:04:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Liza, AH_Miller, Ivan, pkra, dkaplan3 (muted), fjh, murakami (muted), dauwhe, Tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf, Stearns, mgylling, benjaminsko, duga, Luc, Bert, TimCole,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Liza, AH_Miller, Ivan, pkra, dkaplan3 (muted), fjh, murakami (muted), dauwhe, Tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf, Stearns, mgylling, benjaminsko, duga, Luc, Bert, TimCole,

15:04:52 <Zakim> ... +1.201.783.aakk, gcapiel, david_stroup

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.201.783.aakk, gcapiel, david_stroup

15:04:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see TimCole, pbelfanti, david_stroup, gcapiel, brady_duga, Bill_Kasdorf, Luc, benjaminsko, mgylling, Bert, tzviya, fjh, murakami, liza, AH_Miller, Zakim, RRSAgent,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see TimCole, pbelfanti, david_stroup, gcapiel, brady_duga, Bill_Kasdorf, Luc, benjaminsko, mgylling, Bert, tzviya, fjh, murakami, liza, AH_Miller, Zakim, RRSAgent,

15:04:52 <Zakim> ... dkaplan3, dauwhe, ivan, pkra, astearns, liam, trackbot, plinss

Zakim IRC Bot: ... dkaplan3, dauwhe, ivan, pkra, astearns, liam, trackbot, plinss

15:06:32 <pkra> pkra: introduced himself

Peter Krautzberger: introduced himself [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ]

15:06:41 <tzviya> welcome Peter!

Tzviya Siegman: welcome Peter!

15:07:15 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is noisy?

15:07:18 <pkra> dkaplan introduced herself. With Safari books, accessibility expert; both standards, QA, coding side well versed.

Peter Krautzberger: dkaplan introduced herself. With Safari books, accessibility expert; both standards, QA, coding side well versed.

15:07:25 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Liza (55%), AH_Miller (42%), dkaplan3 (15%), Bill_Kasdorf (19%)

Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Liza (55%), AH_Miller (42%), dkaplan3 (15%), Bill_Kasdorf (19%)

15:07:31 <pkra> liza: approving last week's minutes

Liza Daly: approving last week's minutes [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ]

15:07:37 <dauwhe> scribenick: pkra

(Scribe set to Peter Krautzberger)

15:07:38 <pkra> ... minutes approved.

... minutes approved.

created using i/liza: main/Topic: Content and markup TF/

1. Content and markup TF

15:08:10 <pkra> liza: main topic: structural semantics markup group.

Liza Daly: main topic: structural semantics markup group.

15:08:23 <pkra> ... table at end, proposing various options for annotating str. semantics.

... table at end, proposing various options for annotating str. semantics.

15:08:30 <pkra> ... need something more friendly to OWP.

... need something more friendly to OWP.

15:08:35 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics

Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics

15:08:36 <Zakim> +madi

Zakim IRC Bot: +madi

15:08:45 <ivan> -> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics#Approaches:Solution_Criteria_and_Options Table on the criteria

Ivan Herman: -> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics#Approaches:Solution_Criteria_and_Options Table on the criteria

15:08:50 <pkra> ... wiki was updated.

... wiki was updated.

15:09:21 <ivan> i/liza: main/Topic: Content and markup TF/
15:09:46 <pkra> Ivan: summarizing: tried to put smthg for each table.

Ivan Herman: summarizing: tried to put smthg for each table.

15:10:00 <pkra> ... AT contract not always clear.

... AT contract not always clear.

15:10:09 <pkra> ... my opinion. could be totally wrong.

... my opinion. could be totally wrong.

15:10:24 <pkra> ... davidF commetns by email.

... dauwhe commetns by email.

15:10:36 <tzviya> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+

15:10:37 <dauwhe> s/davidF/dauwhe/
15:10:43 <pkra> ... (correction from pkra: David Cramer?)

... (correction from pkra: David Cramer?)

15:11:16 <pkra> tzviya: goal: spelling out _very clearly_ why we want / not want to use these.

Tzviya Siegman: goal: spelling out _very clearly_ why we want / not want to use these.

15:11:23 <pkra> ... ex. namespacing.

... ex. namespacing.

15:11:53 <pkra> Ivan: let's go through it line by line.

Ivan Herman: let's go through it line by line.

15:12:04 <pkra> ... everybody can respond.

... everybody can respond.

15:12:28 <pkra> ... namespacing -- current approach in epub.

... namespacing -- current approach in epub.

15:12:40 <pkra> ... primary issue: XML specific thing.

... primary issue: XML specific thing.

15:12:50 <pkra> ... future is HTML5 w/o x

... future is HTML5 w/o x

15:13:02 <Zakim> +Liam

Zakim IRC Bot: +Liam

15:13:18 <pkra> ... then namespaces are the either a problem or produce dissent.

... then namespaces are the either a problem or produce dissent.

15:14:00 <pkra> ... if HTML5+scripting is the future, then XML namespaces dangerous.

... if HTML5+scripting is the future, then XML namespaces dangerous.

15:14:19 <pkra> liza: anyone think moving away from namespaces is a bad choice?

Liza Daly: anyone think moving away from namespaces is a bad choice?

15:14:19 <mgylling> q+

Markus Gylling: q+

15:14:29 <ivan> ack tzviya

Ivan Herman: ack tzviya

15:14:34 <pkra> davidCramer: what is IDPF's position?

Scribe problem: the name 'davidCramer' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown davidCramer: what is IDPF's position?

15:14:35 <ivan> ack mgylling

Ivan Herman: ack mgylling

15:14:47 <pkra> mgylling: IDPF is currently doing nothing.

Markus Gylling: IDPF is currently doing nothing.

15:15:04 <fjh> q+

Frederick Hirsch: q+

15:15:05 <pkra> ... wants this idea to produce recommendations to inform IDPF.

... wants this idea to produce recommendations to inform IDPF.

15:15:20 <Luc> q+

Luc Audrain: q+

15:15:28 <pkra> ... ppl have lots of problems + workaround to avoid/deal with namespaces.

... ppl have lots of problems + workaround to avoid/deal with namespaces.

15:15:39 <pkra> ... wait for recommendations from W3C and DPIG

... wait for recommendations from W3C and DPIG

15:15:46 <pkra> ... integrate in epub / IDPF standards.

... integrate in epub / IDPF standards.

15:16:19 <pkra> ... re first column: AT contract might be a bad choice

... re first column: AT contract might be a bad choice

15:16:31 <pkra> ... more whether AT digestion is automatic.

... more whether AT digestion is automatic.

15:17:07 <pkra> ... whether existing solutions can deal with it

... whether existing solutions can deal with it

15:17:18 <pkra> ... whether existing APIs can already provide.

... whether existing APIs can already provide.

15:17:35 <liza> ack fjh

Liza Daly: ack fjh

15:17:43 <pkra> Ivan: we don't know w/ they exist

Ivan Herman: we don't know w/ they exist

15:18:24 <pkra> ... somebody should happen right away.

... somebody should happen right away.

15:18:30 <pkra> Tzviya: I'll take care of it.

Tzviya Siegman: I'll take care of it.

15:18:43 <fjh> q+

Frederick Hirsch: q+

15:19:28 <pkra> fjh frederic: @Ivan: a11y not possible with namespaces?

Luc Audrain: @Ivan: a11y not possible with namespaces?

15:19:47 <pkra> Ivan: JS developer today will use one of the major libraries (jquery etc)

Ivan Herman: JS developer today will use one of the major libraries (jquery etc)

15:20:02 <pkra> ... those tools usually don't test for xhtml anymore.

... those tools usually don't test for xhtml anymore.

15:20:23 <pkra> ... risk that future development will tend to not work on xhtml.

... risk that future development will tend to not work on xhtml.

15:20:24 <fjh> s/fjh frederic/Luc/
15:20:35 <pkra> (ah, sorry).

(ah, sorry).

15:20:58 <ivan> ack Luc

Ivan Herman: ack Luc

15:21:06 <liza> ack fjh

Liza Daly: ack fjh

15:21:29 <fjh> unmute me

Frederick Hirsch: unmute me

15:21:36 <ivan> zakim, unmute fjh

Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute fjh

15:21:36 <Zakim> fjh was not muted, ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: fjh was not muted, ivan

15:21:37 <liza> zakim, unmute fjh

Liza Daly: zakim, unmute fjh

15:21:38 <Zakim> fjh was not muted, liza

Zakim IRC Bot: fjh was not muted, liza

15:21:51 <liza> ack liam

Liza Daly: ack liam

15:21:51 <ivan> ack liza

Ivan Herman: ack liza

15:22:02 <fjh> q+

Frederick Hirsch: q+

15:22:15 <pkra> liam: robin's comment at Paris workshop explicitly do not apply to xhtml.

Liam Quin: robin's comment at Paris workshop explicitly do not apply to xhtml.

15:22:39 <pkra> ... if you add namespaces, you're going outside polyglott spec

... if you add namespaces, you're going outside polyglott spec

15:22:44 <mgylling> q+

Markus Gylling: q+

15:23:18 <pkra> ... don't see Robin's argument as abandoning xhtml.

... don't see Robin's argument as abandoning xhtml.

15:23:32 <pkra> Liza: but still true that libraries won't support xhtml.

Liza Daly: but still true that libraries won't support xhtml.

15:23:37 <liza> ack markus

Liza Daly: ack markus

15:23:39 <pkra> liam: true.

Liam Quin: true.

15:23:46 <ivan> ack fjh

Ivan Herman: ack fjh

15:24:31 <pkra> frederick: about the table. what functionality are we looking for?

Frederick Hirsch: about the table. what functionality are we looking for?

15:24:38 <ivan> ack mgylling

Ivan Herman: ack mgylling

15:24:55 <pkra> mgylling: this is not about serialization. (we might want to discuss this some time)

Markus Gylling: this is not about serialization. (we might want to discuss this some time)

15:24:59 <pkra> ... it's about semantic inflection.

... it's about semantic inflection.

15:25:08 <pkra> ... we need to do this serialization agnostic.

... we need to do this serialization agnostic.

15:25:34 <pkra> ... don't want to use HTML-specific or xHTML-specific ones.

... don't want to use HTML-specific or xHTML-specific ones.

15:25:56 <pkra> liza: so third column most important.

Liza Daly: so third column most important.

15:26:21 <pkra> Ivan: on to next line in the table: @hyphen

Ivan Herman: on to next line in the table: @hyphen

15:26:38 <pkra> ... ppl using `ebook-type`

... ppl using `ebook-type`

15:26:50 <pkra> ... existing mechanism

... existing mechanism

15:27:03 <pkra> possible to add such attributes, serialization agnostic,

possible to add such attributes, serialization agnostic,

15:27:11 <pkra> ...  possible to add such attributes, serialization agnostic

... possible to add such attributes, serialization agnostic

15:27:21 <mgylling> clear AT contract, no: +1

Markus Gylling: clear AT contract, no: +1

15:27:22 <pkra> ... static provisioning.

... static provisioning.

15:27:48 <pkra> ... much like epub right now, just slightly different string.

... much like epub right now, just slightly different string.

15:28:18 <pkra> ... one key problem: validators. Any value would need approval HTML5 WG.

... one key problem: validators. Any value would need approval HTML5 WG.

15:28:37 <pkra> needs kind of registration-process.

needs kind of registration-process.

15:28:44 <pkra> ...  needs kind of registration-process.

... needs kind of registration-process.

15:29:07 <pkra> ... HTML5WG would look at values "what values are useful in general?"

... HTML5WG would look at values "what values are useful in general?"

15:29:11 <pkra> ... would slow down the process.

... would slow down the process.

15:29:31 <pkra> liza: how would that be serialized in xhtml?

Liza Daly: how would that be serialized in xhtml?

15:29:41 <pkra> ivan: same attribute names.

Ivan Herman: same attribute names.

15:29:56 <ivan> ack liza

Ivan Herman: ack liza

15:29:59 <ivan> ack liam

Ivan Herman: ack liam

15:29:59 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to note that one's own attributes are as far outside "standard HTML" as namespaces

Zakim IRC Bot: liam, you wanted to note that one's own attributes are as far outside "standard HTML" as namespaces

15:30:17 <pkra> liam: as soon as you add your own, then you're going outside the comfortable zone.

Liam Quin: as soon as you add your own, then you're going outside the comfortable zone.

15:30:24 <pkra> ... data-* is the natural way.

... data-* is the natural way.

15:30:31 <pkra> Ivan: I don't think it's the same issue.

Ivan Herman: I don't think it's the same issue.

15:30:38 <pkra> ... yes, data-* more natural.

... yes, data-* more natural.

15:31:05 <pkra> ... but @hyphen defined that you can get to these attributes (via JS) just like any other attributes.

... but @hyphen defined that you can get to these attributes (via JS) just like any other attributes.

15:31:23 <pkra> ... will be in the DOM, JS can access them through regular DOM calls.

... will be in the DOM, JS can access them through regular DOM calls.

15:31:46 <pkra> mgylling: itf-* attributes are an example.

Markus Gylling: ITS 2.0 attributes are an example.

15:31:48 <Luc> +q

Luc Audrain: +q

15:31:53 <liza> ack luc

Liza Daly: ack luc

15:31:57 <Zakim> - +1.201.783.aakk

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.201.783.aakk

15:32:04 <pkra> Luc: wondeirng about openeness.

Luc Audrain: wondeirng about openeness.

15:32:07 <tzviya> s/itf-*/ITS 2.0
15:32:13 <tzviya> See http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/ for reference

Tzviya Siegman: See http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/ for reference

15:32:24 <pkra> ... with @hyphen we have to get through validation.

... with @hyphen we have to get through validation.

15:32:32 <pkra> ... if we put any kind of vocal inside them.

... if we put any kind of vocal inside them.

15:32:51 <pkra> Ivan: they should be re-organized body that defines the possible values.

Ivan Herman: they should be re-organized body that defines the possible values.

15:33:09 <pkra> ... ex. IDPF could organize that body; shoulnd't be a problem

... ex. IDPF could organize that body; shoulnd't be a problem

15:33:19 <pkra> Luc: namespace problem is moved to attributes.

Luc Audrain: namespace problem is moved to attributes.

15:33:27 <pkra> Ivan: yes. but agnostic to serialization.

Ivan Herman: yes. but agnostic to serialization.

15:33:50 <pkra> Ivan: next in table: RDa / MD

Ivan Herman: next in table: RDa / MD

15:33:53 <Luc> moved to attributes values

Luc Audrain: moved to attributes values

15:34:03 <pkra> ... the problems: no clear AT contract

... the problems: no clear AT contract

15:34:22 <pkra> ... problems: for many considered too complicated for users.

... problems: for many considered too complicated for users.

15:34:42 <pkra> ... for authors, conceptionally.

... for authors, conceptionally.

15:34:55 <pkra> ... MD more hidden

... MD more hidden

15:34:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_Kasdorf' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_Kasdorf' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: q+

15:35:10 <pkra> ... problems: appropriateness.

... problems: appropriateness.

15:35:22 <pkra> ... RDFa sensitive to subject.

... RDFa sensitive to subject.

15:35:33 <pkra> ... (see last column)

... (see last column)

15:36:07 <pkra> ... e.g. concert. MD is about the concert, not the div element holding the description.

... e.g. concert. MD is about the concert, not the div element holding the description.

15:36:31 <mgylling> +1

Markus Gylling: +1

15:36:32 <liza> ack Bill_Kasdorf

Liza Daly: ack Bill_Kasdorf

15:36:32 <pkra> ... I think the goal of this table is something else.

... I think the goal of this table is something else.

15:36:35 <Luc> +q

Luc Audrain: +q

15:36:46 <pkra> Bill: want to emph. that last point.

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Bill: want to emph. that last point.

15:37:24 <liza> ack Luc

Liza Daly: ack Luc

15:37:29 <pkra> ... make that distinction strongly.

... make that distinction strongly.

15:37:34 <pkra> Luc: but I think we need both.

Luc Audrain: but I think we need both.

15:37:47 <pkra> ... describe document and describe what it's about.

... describe document and describe what it's about.

15:37:51 <pkra> Ivan: completely agree.

Ivan Herman: completely agree.

15:37:58 <pkra> Bill: agree.

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Bill: agree.

15:38:25 <pkra> Ivan: only: this table here is not about that.

Ivan Herman: only: this table here is not about that.

15:38:35 <dauwhe> q+

Dave Cramer: q+

15:38:36 <pkra> ... this is about marking up index etc.

... this is about marking up index etc.

15:38:51 <liza> ack dauwhe

Liza Daly: ack dauwhe

15:38:53 <pkra> Bill_K: maybe call it "structural refinement"?

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_K' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Bill_K: maybe call it "structural refinement"?

15:39:02 <pkra> Luc: that makes more sense.

Luc Audrain: that makes more sense.

15:39:16 <pkra> DaveC: si that problem that HTML is not granular enough?

Dave Cramer: si that problem that HTML is not granular enough?

15:39:35 <pkra> Ivan: agree.

Ivan Herman: agree.

15:39:37 <fjh> +1

Frederick Hirsch: +1

15:39:48 <Luc> +q

Luc Audrain: +q

15:39:50 <pkra> +1

+1

15:40:04 <pkra> Luc: understand distinction.

Luc Audrain: understand distinction.

15:40:16 <pkra> ... but we could use RDFa appropriately.

... but we could use RDFa appropriately.

15:40:58 <pkra> ... why couldn't RDFa not be used to describe the doc itself?

... why couldn't RDFa not be used to describe the doc itself?

15:40:59 <mgylling> If Luc is right, why did the ITS2.0 folks not go this route?

Markus Gylling: If Luc is right, why did the ITS2.0 folks not go this route?

15:41:30 <pkra> Ivan: technically it could be done. but very technical. You need to give a URI to each DIV element on which you make a statement.

Ivan Herman: technically it could be done. but very technical. You need to give a URI to each DIV element on which you make a statement.

15:41:51 <pkra> ... horrendously ugly and complicated

... horrendously ugly and complicated

15:41:52 <mgylling> answer: “horrendously ugly”

Scribe problem: the name 'answer' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown answer: “horrendously ugly” [ Scribe Assist by Markus Gylling ]

15:42:13 <pkra> .. thats' why IDPF didnt' adopt it either.

.. thats' why IDPF didnt' adopt it either.

15:42:33 <pkra> Ivan: @role. much like @hyphen

Ivan Herman: @role. much like @hyphen

15:42:43 <pkra> ... but we get into a similar problem.

... but we get into a similar problem.

15:42:50 <pkra> ... how would the valures be registered.

... how would the valures be registered.

15:43:03 <pkra> ... there's role and sometimes aria-* attributes.

... there's role and sometimes aria-* attributes.

15:43:16 <pkra> ... biggest problem imho: registration needed.

... biggest problem imho: registration needed.

15:43:32 <pkra> ... would have to go to a11y groups.

... would have to go to a11y groups.

15:43:45 <mgylling> +1

Markus Gylling: +1

15:43:56 <pkra> ... while this is partly  a a11y technology, it's not directly.

... while this is partly a a11y technology, it's not directly.

15:43:59 <mgylling> q+

Markus Gylling: q+

15:44:21 <ivan> ack Luc

Ivan Herman: ack Luc

15:44:24 <ivan> ack mgylling

Ivan Herman: ack mgylling

15:44:47 <pkra> mgylling: @role: we had some discussions with PF people (Rich Schwartz???).

Markus Gylling: @role: we had some discussions with PF people (Rich Schwartz???).

15:45:03 <pkra> ... PF thinking about going beyond AT with @role.

... PF thinking about going beyond AT with @role.

15:45:15 <pkra> .. but no guarantee that they will go there.

.. but no guarantee that they will go there.

15:45:25 <pkra> ... we need an update on that .

... we need an update on that .

15:45:43 <pkra> ... but: only one to get +1 on AT column.

... but: only one to get +1 on AT column.

15:45:57 <pkra> ... no need for specialization from AT tech.

... no need for specialization from AT tech.

15:46:04 <pkra> ... @role is unique in that.

... @role is unique in that.

15:46:13 <pkra> Liza: only advantage over @hyphen?

Liza Daly: only advantage over @hyphen?

15:46:20 <pkra> mgylling: no need to create specification.

Markus Gylling: no need to create specification.

15:46:29 <pkra> ... easy to get support from validators.

... easy to get support from validators.

15:46:35 <pkra> ... maybe.

... maybe.

15:46:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_Kasdorf' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_Kasdorf' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: q+

15:46:43 <pkra> Ivan: maybe indeed.

Ivan Herman: maybe indeed.

15:46:51 <tzviya> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+

15:47:13 <liza> ack Bill_Kasdorf

Liza Daly: ack Bill_Kasdorf

15:47:19 <pkra> ... we'd have to deal with 2 WGs if we go down that route.

... we'd have to deal with 2 WGs if we go down that route.

15:47:33 <pkra> BillK: any issues of multiplicity of attribute?

Scribe problem: the name 'BillK' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown BillK: any issues of multiplicity of attribute?

15:47:49 <pkra> Ivan: I don't know.

Ivan Herman: I don't know.

15:48:24 <pkra> BillK: multiple values for @role attribute (aria + publisher specifics) is that a problem.

Scribe problem: the name 'BillK' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown BillK: multiple values for @role attribute (aria + publisher specifics) is that a problem.

15:48:35 <liza> ack tzviya

Liza Daly: ack tzviya

15:48:36 <pkra> mgylling: no, it already takes care of that.

Markus Gylling: no, it already takes care of that.

15:48:42 <pkra> ... in theory anyway.

... in theory anyway.

15:49:07 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Summary_of_20140314_Structural_Semantics_Call

Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Summary_of_20140314_Structural_Semantics_Call

15:49:08 <Bert> q+ to ask why there are no external formats in the table, e.g., <link rel=glossary href="terms.glossml"> or linked from a manifest file.

Bert Bos: q+ to ask why there are no external formats in the table, e.g., <link rel=glossary href="terms.glossml"> or linked from a manifest file.

15:49:11 <pkra> tzviya: a) meeting with Rich. leaning towards @role rather than new spec. => link.

Tzviya Siegman: a) meeting with Rich. leaning towards @role rather than new spec. => link.

15:49:22 <pkra> ... personally +1, easier to implement.

... personally +1, easier to implement.

15:49:32 <pkra> ... would have to look at the inherit semantics.

... would have to look at the inherit semantics.

15:50:06 <pkra> ... can't be introducing contradictions.

... can't be introducing contradictions.

15:50:22 <pkra> Ivan: we need (urgently) update from PF working group.

Ivan Herman: we need (urgently) update from PF working group.

15:50:27 <dauwhe> Zakim, who is noisy?

Dave Cramer: Zakim, who is noisy?

15:50:38 <Zakim> dauwhe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dkaplan3 (23%), Bill_Kasdorf (13%)

Zakim IRC Bot: dauwhe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dkaplan3 (23%), Bill_Kasdorf (13%)

15:50:41 <liza> ack Bert

Liza Daly: ack Bert

15:50:41 <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to ask why there are no external formats in the table, e.g., <link rel=glossary href="terms.glossml"> or linked from a manifest file.

Zakim IRC Bot: Bert, you wanted to ask why there are no external formats in the table, e.g., <link rel=glossary href="terms.glossml"> or linked from a manifest file.

15:52:03 <pkra> liza: let's skip @class and @data-*. They're both for different things.

Liza Daly: let's skip @class and @data-*. They're both for different things.

15:52:08 <pkra> ... custom elements?

... custom elements?

15:52:13 <pkra> ... tackle now?

... tackle now?

15:52:42 <pkra> Ivan: is it a sledge hammer?

Ivan Herman: is it a sledge hammer?

15:52:48 <liza> <sledgehammer>

Liza Daly: <sledgehammer>

15:52:53 <pkra> ... means: we add a new HTML element.

... means: we add a new HTML element.

15:53:01 <pkra> (thanks liza)

(thanks liza)

15:53:18 <pkra> ... justified for some things (ebooks in general yes)

... justified for some things (ebooks in general yes)

15:53:26 <pkra> ... but for this particular problem, it's nuking the problem.

... but for this particular problem, it's nuking the problem.

15:53:51 <liza> <slicedbread>

Liza Daly: <slicedbread>

15:54:05 <pkra> mgylling: put it in because it's hailed in some pub tech as the best thing since sliced bread.

Markus Gylling: put it in because it's hailed in some pub tech as the best thing since sliced bread.

15:54:30 <tzviya> q+

Tzviya Siegman: q+

15:54:42 <liza> dauwhe: Ha ha

Dave Cramer: Ha ha [ Scribe Assist by Liza Daly ]

15:54:43 <pkra> Ivan: heard it at Edupub, for widgets.

Ivan Herman: heard it at Edupub, for widgets.

15:55:10 <pkra> ... great topic in general for the IG.

... great topic in general for the IG.

15:55:17 <pkra> ... just not here.

... just not here.

15:55:19 <liza> ack tzviya

Liza Daly: ack tzviya

15:55:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_Kasdorf' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_Kasdorf' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1

15:56:00 <Luc> +1

Luc Audrain: +1

15:56:05 <pkra> tzviya: even if we propose "chapter", it would bring up a huge list of elements, most of which would be hard tocommnicate.

Tzviya Siegman: even if we propose "chapter", it would bring up a huge list of elements, most of which would be hard tocommnicate.

15:56:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_Kasdorf' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_Kasdorf' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1

15:56:17 <pkra> mgylling: has utility for books, but for more complicated ones than this one.

Markus Gylling: has utility for books, but for more complicated ones than this one.

15:56:21 <pkra> +1

+1

15:56:59 <pkra> Bert: all of these are in the document itself. Why not external format?

Bert Bos: all of these are in the document itself. Why not external format?

15:57:09 <pkra> ... e.g. an XML document to point into the document.

... e.g. an XML document to point into the document.

15:57:11 <dauwhe> q+

Dave Cramer: q+

15:57:43 <liza> ack dauwhe

Liza Daly: ack dauwhe

15:58:00 <Zakim> -TimCole

Scribe problem: the name 'TimCole' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -TimCole

15:58:00 <liza> Zakim you're useless

Liza Daly: Zakim you're useless

15:58:22 <pkra> I'm not follwing b/c markus has too much background.

I'm not follwing b/c markus has too much background.

15:58:55 <pkra> DaveC: if we add vocabularies, it would be overkill to link to an external file.

Dave Cramer: if we add vocabularies, it would be overkill to link to an external file.

15:59:02 <pkra> ... saying this is a chapter.

... saying this is a chapter.

15:59:15 <pkra> mgylling: some other ideas for CSS to go beyond styling.

Markus Gylling: some other ideas for CSS to go beyond styling.

15:59:38 <pkra> Bert: old idea. Ever since RDFa, CSS has been saying: that's just what CSS does.

Bert Bos: old idea. Ever since RDFa, CSS has been saying: that's just what CSS does.

16:00:06 <pkra> Ivan: technically I can see something like CSS selector used for that; relatively simple.

Ivan Herman: technically I can see something like CSS selector used for that; relatively simple.

16:00:14 <pkra> ... but still needs some hooks into the HTML text itself.

... but still needs some hooks into the HTML text itself.

16:00:21 <pkra> ... no real win

... no real win

16:00:21 <Zakim> -Liam

Zakim IRC Bot: -Liam

16:00:42 <pkra> Bert: maybe not all use cases. But some things, like glossary.

Bert Bos: maybe not all use cases. But some things, like glossary.

16:00:53 <pkra> liza: and we're out of time.

Liza Daly: and we're out of time.

16:01:05 <pkra> ivan: pick up w/ next steps.

Ivan Herman: pick up w/ next steps.

16:01:09 <Zakim> -duga

Zakim IRC Bot: -duga

16:01:11 <Zakim> -Liza

Zakim IRC Bot: -Liza

16:01:13 <Zakim> -mgylling

Zakim IRC Bot: -mgylling

16:01:14 <Zakim> -madi

Zakim IRC Bot: -madi

16:01:14 <Zakim> -fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: -fjh

16:01:16 <Zakim> -pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra

16:01:16 <Zakim> -Tzviya

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tzviya

16:01:16 <Zakim> -david_stroup

Zakim IRC Bot: -david_stroup

16:01:16 <Zakim> -gcapiel

Zakim IRC Bot: -gcapiel

16:01:16 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

16:01:17 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:01:17 <Zakim> -AH_Miller

Zakim IRC Bot: -AH_Miller

16:01:17 <Zakim> -dkaplan3

Scribe problem: the name 'dkaplan3' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -dkaplan3

16:01:19 <Zakim> -Stearns

Zakim IRC Bot: -Stearns

16:01:19 <Zakim> -Bert

Zakim IRC Bot: -Bert

16:01:19 <Zakim> -dauwhe

Zakim IRC Bot: -dauwhe

16:01:22 <Zakim> -murakami

Zakim IRC Bot: -murakami

16:01:25 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf

Scribe problem: the name 'Bill_Kasdorf' does not match any of the 70 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Bill_Kasdorf

16:02:17 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:02:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan

16:02:27 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

16:02:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see benjaminsko

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see benjaminsko

16:02:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see madi, pbelfanti, gcapiel, Luc, benjaminsko, Bert, tzviya, murakami, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, pkra, astearns, liam, trackbot, plinss

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see madi, pbelfanti, gcapiel, Luc, benjaminsko, Bert, tzviya, murakami, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, pkra, astearns, liam, trackbot, plinss

16:02:33 <Zakim> -benjaminsko

Zakim IRC Bot: -benjaminsko

16:02:35 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended

16:02:35 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.453.aaaa, +1.240.421.aabb, Ivan, AH_Miller, Liza, +49.228.36.aacc, +1.617.439.aadd, pkra, fjh, dkaplan3, +1.917.207.aaee, dauwhe, murakami, Tzviya,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.617.453.aaaa, +1.240.421.aabb, Ivan, AH_Miller, Liza, +49.228.36.aacc, +1.617.439.aadd, pkra, fjh, dkaplan3, +1.917.207.aaee, dauwhe, murakami, Tzviya,

16:02:35 <Zakim> ... +1.734.904.aaff, Stearns, +1.917.447.aagg, Bill_Kasdorf, mgylling, +1.217.244.aahh, benjaminsko, duga, +33.1.41.23.aaii, Bert, Luc, +1.217.244.aajj, +1.201.783.aakk,

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.734.904.aaff, Stearns, +1.917.447.aagg, Bill_Kasdorf, mgylling, +1.217.244.aahh, benjaminsko, duga, +33.1.41.23.aaii, Bert, Luc, +1.217.244.aajj, +1.201.783.aakk,

16:02:35 <Zakim> ... +1.585.217.aall, gcapiel, TimCole, david_stroup, madi, Liam

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.585.217.aall, gcapiel, TimCole, david_stroup, madi, Liam

16:02:52 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon

Ivan Herman: trackbot, end telcon

16:02:52 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:02:52 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

16:03:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:03:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-dpub-minutes.html trackbot

16:03:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:03:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



Formatted by CommonScribe