00:31:51 <ivan> Meeting: F2F Meeting, Shenzhen, 1st day
00:31:58 <ivan> Chair: Markus
01:01:06 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: scribe guide: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F
01:16:56 <ivan> zakim, this is 3782
Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, I see SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 3782".←
01:28:48 <Vlad> scribe: Vlad
(Scribe set to Vladimir Levantovsky)
01:30:01 <Vlad> markus: introductions and opening of the meeting
Markus Gylling: introductions and opening of the meeting←
01:31:15 <Vlad> mgylling: reviewing the agenda for the day
Markus Gylling: reviewing the agenda for the day←
01:33:00 <Vlad> mgylling: ... and for the whole WG meeting including Tuesday
Markus Gylling: ... and for the whole WG meeting including Tuesday←
01:36:58 <Zakim> sorry, tmichel, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tmichel, I don't know what conference this is←
01:39:21 <Vlad> WG - discussing the additional agenda items for the meeting
IG - discussing the additional agenda items for the meeting←
01:39:33 <Vlad> s/WG/IG/
01:42:14 <ivan> Topic: Pagination
01:42:28 <mgylling> agenda: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F
01:42:52 <Vlad> topic: Pagination
01:44:09 <Vlad> mgylling: The home for pagintaion spec will be CSS WG. We want to help them with pagination support to improve support in existing browsers
Markus Gylling: The home for pagination spec will be CSS WG. We want to help them with pagination support to improve support in existing browsers←
01:45:01 <Vlad> mgylling: among many things we need to do is complete set of requirements
Markus Gylling: among many things we need to do is complete set of requirements←
01:45:15 <Vlad> mgylling: asking Dave to present
Markus Gylling: asking Dave to present←
01:45:57 <ivan> -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/ Dave's draft
Ivan Herman: -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/ Dave's draft←
01:46:36 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: CSS is working on many things that would be considered building blocks of pagination. We need to figure out what needs to happen there for CSS to become a complete tool kit.
01:47:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made←
01:48:13 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: It is not a easy job, page is a complex object and we need to be able to identify them (first page of a chapter, paragraph, objects in the page that may require different desing or content)
01:49:35 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: ... outlining the scope of work items that have been conducted in CSS
01:50:02 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?←
01:50:02 <Zakim> apparently SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended, ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: apparently SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended, ivan←
01:50:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see bobby, Ralph, cwdoh, Vlad, Sharad, r12a, karen, tmichel, marilyn, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, walkley, gcapiel, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bobby, Ralph, cwdoh, Vlad, Sharad, r12a, karen, tmichel, marilyn, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, walkley, gcapiel, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss←
01:50:22 <Vlad> gerardo: is it problematic to accomplish the process of switching between pages?
Gerardo Capiel: is it problematic to accomplish the process of switching between pages?←
01:50:46 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made←
01:50:47 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started←
01:51:00 <Zakim> +Ralph
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ralph←
01:51:02 <Zakim> -Ralph
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ralph←
01:51:02 <Zakim> +Ralph
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ralph←
01:51:06 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: some of this depends on user agent implementations, some are user-directed actionsDave Cramer: some of this depends on user agent implementations, some are user-directed actions←
01:51:58 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: some page switching is automatic (reached the end of the page and want to switch to the next)
01:52:51 <Vlad> Brady: how do we know what the page run is, what is the page box, etc. Sometimes you may have more than one page on screen?
Brady Duga: how do we know what the page run is, what is the page box, etc. Sometimes you may have more than one page on screen?←
01:53:13 <Vlad> Gerardo: what is the mechanism to file these questions and requirements?
Gerardo Capiel: what is the mechanism to file these questions and requirements?←
01:54:01 <Vlad> Brady: beleives this may go outside of the CSS territory and will involve more concepts including work done in HTML
Brady Duga: believes this may go outside of the CSS territory and will involve more concepts including work done in HTML←
01:55:17 <Vlad> mgylling: today it is unclear what needs to be done and most implementations don't do it right
Markus Gylling: today it is unclear what needs to be done and most implementations don't do it right←
01:55:57 <Vlad> mgylling: suggests to populate the wiki page with the event requirements for pagination
Markus Gylling: suggests to populate the wiki page with the event requirements for pagination←
01:56:47 <Vlad> Dave C, and Markus discussing the needs of the pagination work and how to collect a complete set of issues
Dave C, and Markus discussing the needs of the pagination work and how to collect a complete set of issues←
01:57:23 <Vlad> Ivan: we may want to discuss this tomorrow (see agenda) when Robin is here
Ivan Herman: we may want to discuss this tomorrow (see agenda) when Robin is here←
01:59:23 <Vlad> Ivan, Markus, Dave, Brady discussing the work done in HTML WG regarding DOM, pagination events (such as document.ready), etc.
Ivan, Markus, Dave, Brady discussing the work done in HTML WG regarding DOM, pagination events (such as document.ready), etc.←
01:59:49 <gcapiel> zakim, Gerardo is really gcapiel
Gerardo Capiel: zakim, gcapiel is really gcapiel←
01:59:49 <Zakim> sorry, gcapiel, I do not recognize a party named 'Gerardo'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, gcapiel, I do not recognize a party named 'gcapiel'←
01:59:49 <Vlad> It is unclear what is currently done / implemented vs. what else needs to be done
It is unclear what is currently done / implemented vs. what else needs to be done←
02:00:17 <Vlad> s/Gerardo/gcapiel/g
02:00:50 <Zakim> -Ralph
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ralph←
02:02:33 <Vlad> mgylling: creating a list of Functional Requirements on wiki, to be posted here later
Markus Gylling: creating a list of Functional Requirements on wiki, to be posted here later←
02:05:38 <dauwhe_> Font load events module link: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-font-load-events/
Dave Cramer: Font load events module link: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-font-load-events/←
02:06:33 <Vlad> ... continuing the discussion of the requirements, catgorizing them for events, DOM, APIs
... continuing the discussion of the requirements, categorizing them for events, DOM, APIs←
02:06:49 <ivan> Guest: Karen (karen) Myers, W3C
02:07:23 <ivan> Guest: Bobby (bobby) Tung, Wanderer
02:09:18 <Vlad> action gcapiel event s related to TTS and pagination
Action Gerardo Capiel event s related to TTS and pagination←
02:09:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Event s related to tts and pagination [on Gerardo Capiel - due 2013-11-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-9 - Event s related to tts and pagination [on Gerardo Capiel - due 2013-11-18].←
02:09:52 <Vlad> actioin Brady paginations related to DOM access
action Brady pagination related to DOM access←
02:10:08 <Vlad> action Brady paginations related to DOM access
02:10:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Paginations related to dom access [on Brady Duga - due 2013-11-18].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-10 - Paginations related to dom access [on Brady Duga - due 2013-11-18].←
02:13:57 <mgylling> notes for Brady and Gerardos action items:
Markus Gylling: notes for Brady and Gerardo 's action items:←
02:14:00 <mgylling> Functional Requirements re dynamic pagination: events and DOM
Markus Gylling: Functional Requirements re dynamic pagination: events and DOM←
02:14:02 <mgylling> - book load
Markus Gylling: - book load←
02:14:04 <mgylling> - page load
Markus Gylling: - page load←
02:14:05 <mgylling> - page change (e.g. reflow after font size change)
Markus Gylling: - page change (e.g. reflow after font size change)←
02:14:07 <mgylling> - what page loaded
Markus Gylling: - what page loaded←
02:14:08 <mgylling> - when a page is loaded
Markus Gylling: - when a page is loaded←
02:14:10 <mgylling> - when a font is loaded (cf CSS3 Fonts Loaded Events Module 3)
Markus Gylling: - when a font is loaded (cf CSS3 Fonts Loaded Events Module 3)←
02:14:11 <mgylling> - TTS reaches end of page, event to auto-trigger page turn
Markus Gylling: - TTS reaches end of page, event to auto-trigger page turn←
02:14:13 <mgylling> (note two scenarios: external AT vs self-voicing)
Markus Gylling: (note two scenarios: external AT vs self-voicing)←
02:14:14 <mgylling>
02:14:16 <mgylling> DOM
Markus Gylling: DOM←
02:14:17 <mgylling> Whats a page, how to I reference it
Markus Gylling: Whats a page, how to I reference it←
02:14:19 <mgylling> I get an event that a page is loaded, how do I get to that page
Markus Gylling: I get an event that a page is loaded, how do I get to that page←
02:14:20 <mgylling>
02:14:21 <mgylling> API
Markus Gylling: API←
02:14:22 <mgylling> turn a page
Markus Gylling: turn a page←
02:14:23 <mgylling> go to a page
Markus Gylling: go to a page←
02:14:53 <dauwhe_> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html
Dave Cramer: http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html←
02:16:21 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: about to present pagintation document
Dave Cramer: about to present pagination document←
02:16:30 <Vlad> (see link above)
(see link above)←
02:21:42 <Vlad> Ivan: We need to separate the concepts of what's in the spec vs. what is current implementations do
Ivan Herman: We need to separate the concepts of what's in the spec vs. what is current implementations do←
02:23:37 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: we may need to identify additional constraints for aligning pages (speaking about wodows and orphans on a page)Dave Cramer: we may need to identify additional constraints for aligning pages (speaking about widows and orphans on a page)←
02:23:55 <Vlad> s/wowos/widows/
02:25:06 <Vlad> r12a: speaking about the need to identify clear items that need to be addressed by either CSS or HTML or other groups
Richard Ishida: speaking about the need to identify clear items that need to be addressed by either CSS or HTML or other groups←
02:26:29 <Vlad> Ivan: we need to capture and explain the issues that will define the direction for CSS and HTML WGs work
Ivan Herman: we need to capture and explain the issues that will define the direction for CSS and HTML WGs work←
02:27:23 <r12a> q+
Richard Ishida: q+←
02:29:11 <ivan> ack r12a
Ivan Herman: ack r12a←
02:29:21 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended←
02:31:00 <manu> Present+ Manu_Sporny
02:34:32 <ivan> Guest: Manu (manu) Sporny, Digital Bazaar
02:34:39 <Vlad> Brady: on the issue of optimizing for page breaks and how it is currently done. A lot of this is currently done manually and the question is if there is an algorithmic solution to this
Brady Duga: on the issue of optimizing for page breaks and how it is currently done. A lot of this is currently done manually and the question is if there is an algorithmic solution to this←
02:36:30 <Vlad> mgylling: suggestion to review the TOC and discuss the areas that are covered / not covered yet
Markus Gylling: suggestion to review the TOC and discuss the areas that are covered / not covered yet←
02:37:10 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: Most of it is jsut a sceleton now to outline what needs to be coveredDave Cramer: Most of it is just a skeleton now to outline what needs to be covered←
02:39:05 <Vlad> mgylling: top level questions about locals and cultures, how to transgress both the paper print format and dynamic pagination for adaptive content
Markus Gylling: top level questions about locales and cultures, how to transgress both the paper print format and dynamic pagination for adaptive content←
02:39:15 <Vlad> ... layout
... layout←
02:41:03 <Vlad> mgylling: Adobe joined the IG recently and we hope they can contribute from tools perspective
Markus Gylling: Adobe joined the IG recently and we hope they can contribute from tools perspective←
02:43:02 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: items to consider include internationalization, cultural differences, types of content (books, magazines, etc.) we need to address, etc.
Dave Cramer: items to consider include internationalization, cultural differences, types of content (books, magazines, etc.) we need to address, etc.←
02:43:23 <Vlad> s/locals/locales/
02:44:51 <Vlad> coffee break - 20 min
coffee break - 20 min←
03:24:19 <ivan> scribe: ivan
03:25:37 <ivan> mgylling: we have to settle the scope question
Markus Gylling: we have to settle the scope question←
03:25:50 <ivan> … the document should be clear what is in scope and not
… the document should be clear what is in scope and not←
03:26:00 <ivan> … probably in the status or in the abstract
… probably in the status or in the abstract←
03:26:26 <ivan> … we have noted that we are not willing (yet) to rule out some of the locale issues
… we have noted that we are not willing (yet) to rule out some of the locale issues←
03:26:58 <ivan> dauwhe_: some of us had discussions that widow has their counterpart in, eg, chinese
Dave Cramer: some of us had discussions that widow has their counterpart in, eg, chinese←
03:33:59 <ivan> mgylling: how about we list candidates for exclusion
Markus Gylling: how about we list candidates for exclusion←
03:34:18 <ivan> dauwhe_: maybe we start with domains, and then language etc.
Dave Cramer: maybe we start with domains, and then language etc.←
03:38:38 <ivan> gcapiel: what is the criteria for exclusion?
Gerardo Capiel: what is the criteria for exclusion?←
03:38:54 <ivan> dauwhe_: which has some narrow rules that are not applicable outside of that domain
Dave Cramer: which has some narrow rules that are not applicable outside of that domain←
03:39:07 <ivan> … althogh they may illustrate the extreme issues that are more in common
… although they may illustrate the extreme issues that are more in common←
03:39:43 <ivan> … eg, religious texts may have very complicated requirements, but, eg the footnotes used in a bible illustrate a lot of problems appearing elsewhere
… eg, religious texts may have very complicated requirements, but, eg the footnotes used in a bible illustrate a lot of problems appearing elsewhere←
03:40:11 <ivan> brady_duga: and if we exclude by simplicity, then we may exclude features that are useful elsewhere
Brady Duga: and if we exclude by simplicity, then we may exclude features that are useful elsewhere←
03:43:25 <ivan> ivan: is fixed layout out of scope of this document?
Ivan Herman: is fixed layout out of scope of this document?←
03:43:49 <ivan> brady_duga: fixed layout is based on explicit techniques and we may not need special css for it
Brady Duga: fixed layout is based on explicit techniques and we may not need special css for it←
03:45:58 <ivan> ivan: if we exclude non-books (newspapers, magazines, etc), we have to make it clear that this is not out of scope for the IG but for the first version of the pagination document
Ivan Herman: if we exclude non-books (newspapers, magazines, etc), we have to make it clear that this is not out of scope for the IG but for the first version of the pagination document←
03:46:40 <ivan> brady_duga: it is not clear how to define what is a journal or not,
Brady Duga: it is not clear how to define what is a journal or not,←
03:47:18 <ivan> dauwhe_: one of the aspect is that the content spreads opver the document, inclusion of advertising, etc
Dave Cramer: one of the aspect is that the content spreads opver the document, inclusion of advertising, etc←
03:47:33 <ivan> … industries are organized around these distinctions
… industries are organized around these distinctions←
03:48:16 <ivan> jeff: we have to be careful not to use the word 'out of scope', just not to be offputting?
Jeff Jaffe: we have to be careful not to use the word 'out of scope', just not to be offputting?←
03:48:37 <ivan> dauwhe_: yes, we should say something like 'our initial concern', something like that
Dave Cramer: yes, we should say something like 'our initial concern', something like that←
03:48:46 <ivan> Guest: Jeff Jaffe, W3C
03:52:21 <ivan> brady_duga: poetry? I am not even sure what the rules are?
Brady Duga: poetry? I am not even sure what the rules are?←
03:53:26 <ivan> koji: CSS has discussed on how much poetry should be covered, left alighn first line, and then other alignments..
Koji Ishii: CSS has discussed on how much poetry should be covered, left alighn first line, and then other alignments..←
03:53:43 <ivan> … the group does not really know
… the group does not really know←
03:54:11 <ivan> dauwhe_: there are a number of books I have that can be turned into CSS without a problem
Dave Cramer: there are a number of books I have that can be turned into CSS without a problem←
03:54:54 <ivan> koji: it is fine to include poetry, but we have to know how publishers want to layout poetry
Koji Ishii: it is fine to include poetry, but we have to know how publishers want to layout poetry←
03:55:15 <ivan> mgylling: some poetry publishers told me that they use fixed layout
Markus Gylling: some poetry publishers told me that they use fixed layout←
03:55:51 <ivan> … they did not want a new page for a poem, but rather scroll
… they did not want a new page for a poem, but rather scroll←
03:55:54 <ivan> … this is not doable
… this is not doable←
03:56:13 <ivan> … breaking the poem into multiple pages is not acceptable
… breaking the poem into multiple pages is not acceptable←
03:56:28 <ivan> koji: we need to talk to poetry publishing
Koji Ishii: we need to talk to poetry publishing←
03:56:38 <ivan> … we really need to discuss them
… we really need to discuss them←
03:56:41 <ivan> q+
q+←
03:57:00 <ivan> q-
q-←
03:59:20 <mgylling> these are the domains for which we will request additional editors, and which will be covered in later versions of the pagination doc:
Markus Gylling: these are the domains for which we will request additional editors, and which will be covered in later versions of the pagination doc:←
04:00:51 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started←
04:00:58 <Zakim> + +1.917.447.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.917.447.aaaa←
04:01:07 <Zakim> - +1.917.447.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.917.447.aaaa←
04:01:09 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended←
04:01:09 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.917.447.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.917.447.aaaa←
04:02:13 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made←
04:02:14 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started←
04:02:46 <mgylling> DOMAINS
Markus Gylling: DOMAINS←
04:02:47 <mgylling> - newspapers
Markus Gylling: - newspapers←
04:02:48 <mgylling> - magazines
Markus Gylling: - magazines←
04:02:50 <mgylling> - childrens picture books
Markus Gylling: - childrens picture books←
04:02:51 <mgylling> - comics / manga
Markus Gylling: - comics / manga←
04:02:51 <mgylling> - poetry
Markus Gylling: - poetry←
04:03:12 <ivan> mgylling: next area is locales
Markus Gylling: next area is locales←
04:03:20 <ivan> Guest: Richard Ishida, W3C
04:04:18 <ivan> dauwhe_: there are ongoing efforts for other languages: indic, korean, chinese
Dave Cramer: there are ongoing efforts for other languages: indic, korean, chinese←
04:04:36 <ivan> richard: the Chinese IG for HTML5 is working on this
Richard Ishida: the Chinese IG for HTML5 is working on this←
04:05:20 <ivan> bobby: jlreq completed almost everything, but not applied fully for chinese, so what we have to document is the difference
Bobby Tung: jlreq completed almost everything, but not applied fully for chinese, so what we have to document is the difference←
04:05:37 <ivan> richard: we would love to find people to do the same for tibetian, thai, hebrew, ...
Richard Ishida: we would love to find people to do the same for tibetian, thai, hebrew, ...←
04:06:02 <ivan> dauwhe_: my initial insticts were that these should be out of scope
Dave Cramer: my initial insticts were that these should be out of scope←
04:06:58 <ivan> richard: we should have 2 different doc, western layout document, and then there is one that says where css has to cover certain issues. These latter are not necessarily for western only
Richard Ishida: we should have 2 different doc, western layout document, and then there is one that says where css has to cover certain issues. These latter are not necessarily for western only←
04:07:17 <ivan> dauwhe_: that would make sense, it would make it easier to move forward
Dave Cramer: that would make sense, it would make it easier to move forward←
04:07:19 <ivan> q+
q+←
04:08:34 <mgylling> Ivan: we need to be clear if we do westernoreq, also need to set up better contacts and relationship with the korean, chinese req groups, be in the loop for documents that are under preparationIvan Herman: we need to be clear if we do westernoreq, also need to set up better contacts and relationship with the korean, chinese req groups, be in the loop for documents that are under preparation [ Scribe Assist by Markus Gylling ] ←
04:09:08 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
zakim, who is here?←
04:09:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see r12a, walkley, brady_duga, koji, bobby, nikos, cwdoh_, msiderwicz_, Ralph, manu, _nikos_office, Vlad, karen, tmichel, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, gcapiel, RRSAgent,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see r12a, walkley, brady_duga, koji, bobby, nikos, cwdoh_, msiderwicz_, Ralph, manu, _nikos_office, Vlad, karen, tmichel, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, gcapiel, RRSAgent,←
04:09:10 <Zakim> ... Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss←
04:09:39 <ivan> richard: it is a bit difficult with i18n is being a separate group
Richard Ishida: it is a bit difficult with i18n is being a separate group←
04:09:51 <ivan> … the best is to find somebody in both groups in general
… the best is to find somebody in both groups in general←
04:10:01 <ivan> … we are also looking at requirements, too
… we are also looking at requirements, too←
04:10:14 <ivan> … eg I am looking at ways of having counter styles
… eg I am looking at ways of having counter styles←
04:10:28 <ivan> … and that would be relevant to this group, too
… and that would be relevant to this group, too←
04:10:37 <ivan> mgylling: it sounds like a coordination nightmare
Markus Gylling: it sounds like a coordination nightmare←
04:11:00 <ivan> … we need to prepare a document quickly
… we need to prepare a document quickly←
04:11:17 <ivan> koji: how about making levels
Koji Ishii: how about making levels←
04:11:20 <Zakim> + +1.917.447.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.917.447.aaaa←
04:12:02 <dauwhe_> zakim, aaa is benjaminsko
Dave Cramer: zakim, aaa is benjaminsko←
04:12:02 <Zakim> sorry, dauwhe_, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, dauwhe_, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'←
04:12:11 <dauwhe_> zakim, aaaa is benjaminsko
Dave Cramer: zakim, aaaa is benjaminsko←
04:12:11 <Zakim> +benjaminsko; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +benjaminsko; got it←
04:13:23 <ivan> ivan: what about non-English cultures and usages?
Ivan Herman: what about non-English cultures and usages?←
04:13:48 <ivan> dauwhe_: pragmatically the content should include what we get input for
Dave Cramer: pragmatically the content should include what we get input for←
04:14:16 <ivan> mgylling: we would like to get the document good enough that it would be reliable for further work
Markus Gylling: we would like to get the document good enough that it would be reliable for further work←
04:20:08 <ivan> brady_duga: are the other document (jlreq, etc) include all features for publishing
Brady Duga: are the other document (jlreq, etc) include all features for publishing←
04:20:13 <ivan> dauwhe_: yes, it does
Dave Cramer: yes, it does←
04:20:49 <ivan> richard: it is more oriented to print like stuffs than electronic ones
Richard Ishida: it is more oriented to print like stuffs than electronic ones←
04:21:01 <ivan> … the focus was printing, and not pages
… the focus was printing, and not pages←
04:21:19 <ivan> koji: it says its focus is for regular priting
Koji Ishii: it says its focus is for regular priting←
04:21:30 <ivan> richard: the korean will be different, it may be underspecified
Richard Ishida: the korean will be different, it may be underspecified←
04:22:05 <ivan> … klreq is probably oriented towards print, but will not have so much information than jlreq
… klreq is probably oriented towards print, but will not have so much information than jlreq←
04:22:12 <ivan> … you will need more information
… you will need more information←
04:22:22 <ivan> … we need people in countries to develop that
… we need people in countries to develop that←
04:22:32 <ivan> mgylling: and we have to be realistic here
Markus Gylling: and we have to be realistic here←
04:22:50 <ivan> … the core observation seems to be
… the core observation seems to be←
04:23:19 <mgylling> Resolution: Dave's document will be recast as latinReq. It will once published include only layout expectations (no refs to CSS etc).
RESOLUTION: Dave's document will be recast as latinReq. It will once published include only layout expectations (no refs to CSS etc).←
04:23:20 <mgylling> There will be an additional separate document which more directly poses requirements on CSS etc, which will draw from jlReq, latinReq, klReq etc.
Markus Gylling: There will be an additional separate document which more directly poses requirements on CSS etc, which will draw from jlReq, latinReq, klReq etc.←
04:23:59 <ivan> mgylling: is there anyting in the question list?
Markus Gylling: is there anyting in the question list?←
04:24:40 <ivan> dauwhe_: how would the group work on the document itself
Dave Cramer: how would the group work on the document itself←
04:24:54 <ivan> … for simplicity is that I filter through me
… for simplicity is that I filter through me←
04:26:12 <ivan> Topic: Web payments
04:27:01 <ivan> manu: I am the chair of the RDFa WG and the JSON-LD community group, and I am also co-chair of the web payment CG
Manu Sporny: I am the chair of the RDFa WG and the JSON-LD community group, and I am also co-chair of the web payment CG←
04:27:12 <ivan> … the goal is to integrate payment into the architecture of the web
… the goal is to integrate payment into the architecture of the web←
04:27:32 <ivan> … ie, the browser should offer a facility where payment would go directly to the user
… ie, the browser should offer a facility where payment would go directly to the user←
04:27:45 <ivan> … web payment should make it very easy to buy books on line
… web payment should make it very easy to buy books on line←
04:28:02 <ivan> … the question is whether this is of interest for this group?
… the question is whether this is of interest for this group?←
04:28:25 <ivan> dauwhe_: we are certainly interested in the concept
Dave Cramer: we are certainly interested in the concept←
04:28:37 <ivan> brady_duga: I am happy to bring the knowledge back
Brady Duga: I am happy to bring the knowledge back←
04:29:17 <ivan> Vlad: is it somethign that you envisage something to be that would replace the commercial solutions?
Vladimir Levantovsky: is it something that you envisage something to be that would replace the commercial solutions?←
04:29:30 <dauwhe_> s/somethign/something/
04:29:31 <ivan> manu: that is certainly what we would like to be
Manu Sporny: that is certainly what we would like to be←
04:29:45 <ivan> … json-ld as well as RDFa was for interest for us for this reason
… json-ld as well as RDFa was for interest for us for this reason←
04:30:04 <ivan> … eg, having the license, bills, etc, sent back in machine readable ways
… eg, having the license, bills, etc, sent back in machine readable ways←
04:30:15 <manu> https://payswarm.com/intro
Manu Sporny: https://payswarm.com/intro←
04:30:34 <ivan> … it is not only getting money from A to B, but other things
… it is not only getting money from A to B, but other things←
04:30:59 <manu> https://payswarm.com/join
Manu Sporny: https://payswarm.com/join←
04:31:42 <ivan> mgylling: do we believe that the current ebook retail work has usage pattern that would challenge your model
Markus Gylling: do we believe that the current ebook retail work has usage pattern that would challenge your model←
04:31:50 <ivan> … I do not know, but it is a question
… I do not know, but it is a question←
04:32:04 <ivan> dauwhe_: we are of course interested to change the patterns
Dave Cramer: we are of course interested to change the patterns←
04:32:30 <ivan> manu: selling ebooks are of course a big use case for us
Manu Sporny: selling ebooks are of course a big use case for us←
04:32:42 <ivan> … we would like to have more expertise in the group
… we would like to have more expertise in the group←
04:33:00 <ivan> mgylling: we certainly have to take this back to our companies, because we are geeks here...
Markus Gylling: we certainly have to take this back to our companies, because we are geeks here...←
04:42:00 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
06:38:11 <dauwhe> topic: csswg summary
06:39:03 <ivan> zakim, this is dpub
Ivan Herman: zakim, this is dpub←
06:39:03 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named 'dpub' in progress or scheduled at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named 'dpub' in progress or scheduled at this time←
06:39:29 <dauwhe> mgylling: atomic advice from discussion
Markus Gylling: atomic advice from discussion←
06:39:44 <dauwhe> ... if you can't have a unicorn, can you have a pony?
... if you can't have a unicorn, can you have a pony?←
06:39:53 <ivan> zakim, this is 3782
Ivan Herman: zakim, this is 3782←
06:39:53 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named '3782' in progress or scheduled at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named '3782' in progress or scheduled at this time←
06:40:02 <dauwhe> ... csswg asked what would be second-best solution for these use cases
... csswg asked what would be second-best solution for these use cases←
06:40:20 <dauwhe> ... this idea of fallback may apply to more than csswg
... this idea of fallback may apply to more than csswg←
06:40:27 <dauwhe> ... they asked for as much detail as possible
... they asked for as much detail as possible←
06:40:44 <dauwhe> ... document even edge cases; this will save solution designers lots of guessing
... document even edge cases; this will save solution designers lots of guessing←
06:41:14 <dauwhe> ... don't have to prioritize everything, but certainly mention most important things of document
... don't have to prioritize everything, but certainly mention most important things of document←
06:41:43 <dauwhe> Richard: do on locale-by-locale basis, with documentation
Richard Ishida: do on locale-by-locale basis, with documentation←
06:41:57 <dauwhe> s/Richard/r12a/
06:42:07 <dauwhe> r12a: asked for lots of examples
Richard Ishida: asked for lots of examples←
06:42:28 <dauwhe> brady_duga: they also asked for data.
Brady Duga: they also asked for data.←
06:42:56 <dauwhe> ... if we can provide evidence for various requirements, the more the better
... if we can provide evidence for various requirements, the more the better←
06:43:27 <dauwhe> ivan: although a certain feature is primarily for publishing, it's also useful for tradional browsing.
Ivan Herman: although a certain feature is primarily for publishing, it's also useful for tradional browsing.←
06:43:34 <dauwhe> ivan: Bert said that.
Ivan Herman: Bert said that.←
06:43:49 <dauwhe> ... the motivation was to convince those less interested in pagination to work on that
... the motivation was to convince those less interested in pagination to work on that←
06:44:09 <dauwhe> r12a: Dean was very focued on how market prioritizes features.
Richard Ishida: Dean was very focued on how market prioritizes features.←
06:44:47 <dauwhe> ... Apple agrees ruby feature is great, but won't implement because of lack of evicdence/market
... Apple agrees ruby feature is great, but won't implement because of lack of evicdence/market←
06:45:04 <dauwhe> mgylling: is it DPUB's place to gather evidence?
Markus Gylling: is it DPUB's place to gather evidence?←
06:45:23 <dauwhe> ... asks Brady how they get data/priorities from publishers.
... asks Brady how they get data/priorities from publishers.←
06:45:37 <dauwhe> brady_duga: publisher-driven based on blackmail
Brady Duga: publisher-driven based on market pressures←
06:45:54 <dauwhe> ... line breaking is terrible. But people still buy our books.
... line breaking is terrible. But people still buy our books.←
06:47:08 <dauwhe> dsinger: it's important to say that your book can't be sold unless feature x is implemented.
David Singer: it's important to say that your book can't be sold unless feature x is implemented.←
06:47:44 <dauwhe> brady_duga: hanging punctuation as example
Brady Duga: hanging punctuation as example←
06:47:57 <dauwhe> ivan: reaching out to publishers becomes very important
Ivan Herman: reaching out to publishers becomes very important←
06:48:11 <dauwhe> ... use IPDF contacts to get data on priorities
... use IPDF contacts to get data on priorities←
06:48:22 <dauwhe> mgylling: that applies across everything we do
Markus Gylling: that applies across everything we do←
06:48:58 <dauwhe> ... this is something new. A dedicated survey: these are the requirements we've gathered. Prioritize them for us.
... this is something new. A dedicated survey: these are the requirements we've gathered. Prioritize them for us.←
06:49:12 <dauwhe> ... that's one way to get there. I don't see how we can easily gather data.
... that's one way to get there. I don't see how we can easily gather data.←
06:49:20 <dauwhe> ivan: we will see what we can do.
Ivan Herman: we will see what we can do.←
06:49:55 <dauwhe> mgylling: in terms of moving forward, concrete proposal. As soon as there's a new section in pagination doc, to ask Dave to suggest agenda item for CSS telcom
Markus Gylling: in terms of moving forward, concrete proposal. As soon as there's a new section in pagination doc, to ask Dave to suggest agenda item for CSS telcom←
06:50:16 <dauwhe> ... so they can review. DPUB members can then join CSSWG telcom to discuss particular issue.
... so they can review. DPUB members can then join CSSWG telcom to discuss particular issue.←
06:50:28 <dauwhe> ivan: Bert is in both groups.
Ivan Herman: Bert is in both groups.←
06:50:42 <dauwhe> mgylling: anything else to encode from previous session? Great!
Markus Gylling: anything else to encode from previous session? Great!←
06:50:54 <dauwhe> ... ten minutes till coffee break!
... ten minutes till coffee break!←
06:51:27 <dauwhe> ... Vlad, set stage for fonts and typography session. What kinds of problems/issues will we discuss?
... Vlad, set stage for fonts and typography session. What kinds of problems/issues will we discuss?←
06:51:41 <dauwhe> ... important for us to understand what you're working on.
... important for us to understand what you're working on.←
06:51:56 <dauwhe> ... give us ten minutes to talk about overarching issues.
... give us ten minutes to talk about overarching issues.←
06:52:22 <dauwhe> Vlad: it's not what's in my brain, or from my company. It's from the people I interact with, people with actual problems.
Vladimir Levantovsky: it's not what's in my brain, or from my company. It's from the people I interact with, people with actual problems.←
06:52:33 <dauwhe> ... that's how I created set of issues
... that's how I created set of issues←
06:52:42 <dauwhe> ... tried to create categorys.
... tried to create categories.←
06:52:55 <dauwhe> ... first: font licensing. From discussions with publishers.
... first: font licensing. From discussions with publishers.←
06:53:12 <dauwhe> ... are publishing legally allowed to use existing font licensing?
... are publishing legally allowed to use existing font licensing?←
06:53:21 <dauwhe> ... under what conditions can it be used?
... under what conditions can it be used?←
06:53:38 <dauwhe> ... we cannot influence the license itself.
... we cannot influence the license itself.←
06:54:00 <dauwhe> ... if I have a license, is there enough of a toolset to embed fonts and satisfy conditions of license.
... if I have a license, is there enough of a toolset to embed fonts and satisfy conditions of license.←
06:54:15 <dauwhe> ... license may say that font cannot *easily* be used.
... license may say that font cannot *easily* be used.←
06:54:23 <dauwhe> ... not clear how these tools work.
... not clear how these tools work.←
06:54:35 <dauwhe> ... some people are unaware of tools.
... some people are unaware of tools.←
06:54:47 <dauwhe> ... they start with predisposition to assume they can't use fonts.
... they start with predisposition to assume they can't use fonts.←
06:55:15 <dauwhe> ... my own position has been that if you use a font, in any format that cannot easily be pulled out and reused.
... my own position has been that if you use a font, in any format that cannot easily be pulled out and reused.←
06:55:48 <dauwhe> ... if you just have to do something, touch font to reuse, then that takes responsibiliy away from publisher
... if you just have to do something, touch font to reuse, then that takes responsibiliy away from publisher←
06:56:01 <dauwhe> ... requires a willful act from the third party, so they are the infringer.
... requires a willful act from the third party, so they are the infringer.←
06:56:12 <dauwhe> ... that infringer is in violation of IP laws.
... that infringer is in violation of IP laws.←
06:56:24 <dauwhe> ... the people who do this are not likely to be our customers.
... the people who do this are not likely to be our customers.←
06:56:43 <dauwhe> ... they are usually isolated acts which don't affect business in general.
... they are usually isolated acts which don't affect business in general.←
06:56:56 <dauwhe> ... this is MT position, but not whole industry.
... this is MT position, but not whole industry.←
06:57:06 <dauwhe> ... obfuscating is enough
... obfuscating is enough←
06:57:43 <dauwhe> ... so publishers doing something like this satisfies licensing requirements
... so publishers doing something like this satisfies licensing requirements←
06:57:52 <dauwhe> Ivan: is this what WOFF was for?
Ivan Herman: is this what WOFF was for?←
06:58:09 <dauwhe> Vlad: we didn't want to deal with licensing when creating WOFF format.
Vladimir Levantovsky: we didn't want to deal with licensing when creating WOFF format.←
06:58:42 <dauwhe_> ... satisfies many requirements. Transparent mech. for fonts in the web, can't be immediately used by other
... satisfies many requirements. Transparent mech. for fonts in the web, can't be immediately used by other←
06:59:06 <dauwhe_> ... applications. No technical burden getting font out of WOFF format, but that makes infringement willful.
... applications. No technical burden getting font out of WOFF format, but that makes infringement willful.←
06:59:27 <dauwhe_> Ivan: In group we've agreed that's enough
Vladimir Levantovsky: In group we've agreed that's enough←
06:59:40 <dauwhe_> ... WOFF has metadata on how to aquire font license
... WOFF has metadata on how to aquire font license←
06:59:54 <ivan> s/Ivan:/Vlad:/
06:59:59 <dauwhe_> ... there's a secondary mechanism to put some boundaries on what type of content can be used
... there's a secondary mechanism to put some boundaries on what type of content can be used←
07:00:14 <dauwhe_> ... that access control mech. is universal
... that access control mech. is universal←
07:00:41 <dauwhe_> ... if it's normal web architecture, people ask questions
... if it's normal web architecture, people ask questions←
07:01:02 <dauwhe_> ... is situation the same for offline/packaged use?
... is situation the same for offline/packaged use?←
07:01:08 <dauwhe_> ... most questions coming from publishers.
... most questions coming from publishers.←
07:01:27 <dauwhe_> ... they are often at a loss whether they can use fonts without violating license.
... they are often at a loss whether they can use fonts without violating license.←
07:01:33 <dauwhe_> ... so that's one big bucket.
... so that's one big bucket.←
07:01:41 <dauwhe_> ... this is a problem of educating users.
... this is a problem of educating users.←
07:01:53 <dauwhe_> mgylling: can w3c or OWP help?
Markus Gylling: can w3c or OWP help?←
07:02:24 <dauwhe_> Vlad: make some document to refer to. EPUB has font obsfucation, to create strong tie between document and font resource
Vladimir Levantovsky: make some document to refer to. EPUB has font obsfucation, to create strong tie between document and font resource←
07:02:35 <dauwhe_> ... web doesn't have that. OK with dynamic content
... web doesn't have that. OK with dynamic content←
07:02:53 <dauwhe_> Ivan: that's not a technical issue, but a usage issue
Ivan Herman: that's not a technical issue, but a usage issue←
07:03:13 <dauwhe_> mgylling: OWP platform does not create a strong tie between font and document for
Markus Gylling: OWP platform does not create a strong tie between font and document for←
07:03:32 <dauwhe_> Ivan: that tie does exist. Do you want inverse?
Ivan Herman: that tie does exist. Do you want inverse?←
07:03:59 <dauwhe_> Vlad: CSS gives mechanism to reference font. Doesn't say you can use that resource for ONLY that doc.
Vladimir Levantovsky: CSS gives mechanism to reference font. Doesn't say you can use that resource for ONLY that doc.←
07:04:25 <dauwhe_> ... EPUB uses CSS declaration, but you also have font obsfucation that modifies font header with doc-specific key
... EPUB uses CSS declaration, but you also have font obsfucation that modifies font header with doc-specific key←
07:04:38 <dauwhe_> ... so if you pull that font out of one epub and move to another it won't work.
... so if you pull that font out of one epub and move to another it won't work.←
07:04:53 <dauwhe_> ... that mechanism isn't clear to lots of publishers.
... that mechanism isn't clear to lots of publishers.←
07:05:13 <dauwhe_> ... that removes you from license violation.
... that removes you from license violation.←
07:05:27 <dauwhe_> ... WOFF doesn't modify font.
... WOFF doesn't modify font.←
07:05:38 <dauwhe_> ... is useable everywhere.
... is useable everywhere.←
07:05:53 <dauwhe_> ... but WOFF gives you metadata saying font was licensed to publisher Y
... but WOFF gives you metadata saying font was licensed to publisher Y←
07:06:08 <dauwhe_> ... at least it gives enough information for anyone to use that font legally.
... at least it gives enough information for anyone to use that font legally.←
07:06:24 <dauwhe_> ... also provides enough information to prevent anyone from claiming ignorance.
... also provides enough information to prevent anyone from claiming ignorance.←
07:06:42 <dauwhe_> ... tryed to prevent unwilling infringement.
... tryed to prevent unwilling infringement.←
07:07:11 <dauwhe_> ... example: TTF font on server, can easily download, could claim you didn't know that was illegal.
... example: TTF font on server, can easily download, could claim you didn't know that was illegal.←
07:07:17 <dauwhe_> ... WOFF is different.
... WOFF is different.←
07:07:33 <dauwhe_> ... can't claim you're innocent bystander.
... can't claim you're innocent bystander.←
07:07:45 <dauwhe_> Ivan: that mechanism exists today, the WOFF metadata
Ivan Herman: that mechanism exists today, the WOFF metadata←
07:07:51 <dauwhe_> ... what is missing?
... what is missing?←
07:08:22 <dauwhe_> Vlad: Monotype says that WOFF file is embedded in digital publishing resource, portable offline document, that's good enough for me.
Vladimir Levantovsky: Monotype says that WOFF file is embedded in digital publishing resource, portable offline document, that's good enough for me.←
07:08:38 <dauwhe_> ... but people/publishers don't think that's the case, are afraid of becoming liable.
... but people/publishers don't think that's the case, are afraid of becoming liable.←
07:08:50 <dauwhe_> mgylling: OWP does not need a font obsfucation mechanism.
Markus Gylling: OWP does not need a font obsfucation mechanism.←
07:09:02 <dauwhe_> Vlad: we need more people be aware of issue.
Vladimir Levantovsky: we need more people be aware of issue.←
07:09:19 <dauwhe_> ... so we can agree embedding WOFF resource is OK. Is good enough.
... so we can agree embedding WOFF resource is OK. Is good enough.←
07:09:48 <dauwhe_> gcapiel: is there a machine-readable way to know if license is OK?
Gerardo Capiel: is there a machine-readable way to know if license is OK?←
07:10:42 <dauwhe_> brady_duga: WOFF is restricted by origin? I'm confused about--if I figure out how to reference the same file from the original origin
Brady Duga: WOFF is restricted by origin? I'm confused about--if I figure out how to reference the same file from the original origin←
07:10:56 <dauwhe_> ... if I sell that book is that a problem? Origin is the same.
... if I sell that book is that a problem? Origin is the same.←
07:11:08 <dauwhe_> Vlad: issue of origin is non-issue with offline content.
Vladimir Levantovsky: issue of origin is non-issue with offline content.←
07:11:22 <dauwhe_> ... once file is offline, http doesn't apply.
... once file is offline, http doesn't apply.←
07:11:36 <dauwhe_> ... don't see how that mech. can work for offline.
... don't see how that mech. can work for offline.←
07:12:21 <dauwhe_> Ivan: from IG point of view, this is a non-issue.
Ivan Herman: from IG point of view, this is a non-issue.←
07:12:27 <dauwhe_> Vlad: I agree.
Vladimir Levantovsky: I agree.←
07:12:42 <dauwhe_> ... users need clear guidance.
... users need clear guidance.←
07:12:55 <dauwhe_> Ivan: IDPF developed technology.
Ivan Herman: IDPF developed technology.←
07:13:49 <dauwhe_> ... IPDF should make it clear that obsfucation is not necessary for WOFF in EPUB
... IPDF should make it clear that obsfucation is not necessary for WOFF in EPUB←
07:14:02 <dauwhe_> brady_duga: is this harmful?
Brady Duga: is this harmful?←
07:14:28 <dauwhe_> Ivan: from IG perspective it's not an issue.
Ivan Herman: from IG perspective it's not an issue.←
07:14:37 <dauwhe_> brady_duga: you're right.
Brady Duga: you're right.←
07:14:46 <dauwhe_> mgylling: not seeing new requirements here.
Markus Gylling: not seeing new requirements here.←
07:15:15 <dauwhe_> ... IDPF says that foundries need to communicate better with customers to clarify offline usage rights.
... IDPF says that foundries need to communicate better with customers to clarify offline usage rights.←
07:15:21 <dauwhe_> ... are we misunderstanding?
... are we misunderstanding?←
07:15:35 <dauwhe_> Vlad: Monotype doesn't see an issue here.
Vladimir Levantovsky: Monotype doesn't see an issue here.←
07:15:42 <dauwhe_> ... question is asked multiple times.
... question is asked multiple times.←
07:15:48 <dauwhe_> ... not explained anywhere.
... not explained anywhere.←
07:15:53 <dauwhe_> ... is it our job to explain?
... is it our job to explain?←
07:16:01 <dauwhe_> ... do we need overveiw to reference?
... do we need overview to reference?←
07:16:11 <dauwhe_> s/overveiw/overview/
07:16:28 <dauwhe_> Ivan: if I look at the IG charter:
Ivan Herman: if I look at the IG charter:←
07:16:56 <dauwhe> ... these are W3C technologys important to publishing industry
... these are W3C technologys important to publishing industry←
07:17:02 <brady_duga> s/blackmail/market pressures/
07:17:17 <dauwhe> Vlad: when we talk about digital publishing technologies are we online or offline
Vladimir Levantovsky: when we talk about digital publishing technologies are we online or offline←
07:17:30 <dauwhe> mgylling: scope of this group is the future.
Markus Gylling: scope of this group is the future.←
07:17:43 <dauwhe> ... cover needs of digital publishing both online and offline
... cover needs of digital publishing both online and offline←
07:18:18 <dauwhe> Vlad: confusing part is diff. between EPUB w/ two types of font resource and obsfucation can work, but online only WOFF works
Vladimir Levantovsky: confusing part is diff. between EPUB w/ two types of font resource and obsfucation can work, but online only WOFF works←
07:18:33 <dauwhe> ... needs to be better explained
... needs to be better explained←
07:18:49 <dauwhe> mgylling: have OWP support obsfucation of non-WOFF fonts.
Markus Gylling: have OWP support obsfucation of non-WOFF fonts.←
07:18:54 <dauwhe> Vlad: if we agree to that, yes.
Vladimir Levantovsky: if we agree to that, yes.←
07:19:08 <dauwhe> ... other choice is to only use WOFF
... other choice is to only use WOFF←
07:19:15 <dauwhe> mgylling: what are the stats?
Markus Gylling: what are the stats?←
07:19:28 <dauwhe> Vlad: on web, nearly everything is WOFF.
Vladimir Levantovsky: on web, nearly everything is WOFF.←
07:19:47 <dauwhe> ... we serve WOFF to every user agent that supports WOFF.
... we serve WOFF to every user agent that supports WOFF.←
07:20:39 <dauwhe> Vlad: next issue; not only about spec, but about what implementions actually do
Vladimir Levantovsky: next issue; not only about spec, but about what implementions actually do←
07:20:52 <dauwhe> ... in EPUB2, many implementations had optional obsfucation
... in EPUB2, many implementations had optional obsfucation←
07:21:01 <dauwhe> ... not all RS implement.
... not all RS implement.←
07:21:18 <dauwhe> ... that's a problem.
... that's a problem.←
07:21:39 <dauwhe> mgylling: coffee break.
Markus Gylling: coffee break.←
08:02:27 <dauwhe> mgylling: to summarize prev. session, the first of the two "Vladimir Buckets"
Markus Gylling: to summarize prev. session, the first of the two "Vladimir Buckets"←
08:02:40 <dauwhe> ... no obvious requirements on OWP regarding rights expressions on fonts
... no obvious requirements on OWP regarding rights expressions on fonts←
08:03:05 <dauwhe> ... generalizing from Vlad's position, WOFF features are enough for both online and offline use
... generalizing from Vlad's position, WOFF features are enough for both online and offline use←
08:03:20 <dauwhe> ... no equivalent metadata expression
... no equivalent metadata expression←
08:03:34 <dauwhe> Vlad: explicitly express restrictions
Vladimir Levantovsky: explicitly express restrictions←
08:03:53 <dauwhe> mgylling: not a W3C issue, more an issue of Foundries and IDPF being more clear on distinctions.
Markus Gylling: not a W3C issue, more an issue of Foundries and IDPF being more clear on distinctions.←
08:05:27 <dauwhe> Vlad: can we document that WOFF is required technology that is relevant to Digital Publishing (as part of charter)
Vladimir Levantovsky: can we document that WOFF is required technology that is relevant to Digital Publishing (as part of charter)←
08:06:11 <dauwhe> RESOLVED: DPUB will add WOFF to list of required technologies for Digital Publishing.
RESOLUTION: DPUB will add WOFF to list of required technologies for Digital Publishing.←
08:06:32 <dauwhe> Vlad: complaining about typography being not as good as print
Vladimir Levantovsky: complaining about typography being not as good as print←
08:06:38 <dauwhe> ... different tools and processes.
... different tools and processes.←
08:06:52 <dauwhe> ... they have full control of content that is printed
... they have full control of content that is printed←
08:07:07 <dauwhe> ... reproduction part of digital pubishing is delegated to unknown user agent
... reproduction part of digital pubishing is delegated to unknown user agent←
08:07:21 <dauwhe> ... so publishers have little control of final result
... so publishers have little control of final result←
08:07:37 <dauwhe> ... don't know what typographic features will be there
... don't know what typographic features will be there←
08:07:52 <dauwhe> ... there are many checkpoints between digital content and final presentation of that content
... there are many checkpoints between digital content and final presentation of that content←
08:08:02 <dauwhe> ... until recently CSS Fonts was fluid document
... until recently CSS Fonts was fluid document←
08:08:14 <dauwhe> ... implementation a year ago is now different
... implementation a year ago is now different←
08:08:24 <dauwhe> ... is now CR
... is now CR←
08:08:40 <dauwhe> ... even though we now have spec, we don't necessarily have implementaions
... even though we now have spec, we don't necessarily have implementaions←
08:08:52 <dauwhe> ... how can interest group facilitate uptake of spec
... how can interest group facilitate uptake of spec←
08:09:07 <dauwhe> ... do we need stronger set of requirements that it must be supported.
... do we need stronger set of requirements that it must be supported.←
08:09:28 <dauwhe> Ivan: example?
Ivan Herman: example?←
08:09:36 <dauwhe> Vlad: scientific publications
Vladimir Levantovsky: scientific publications←
08:09:41 <dauwhe> ... not talking about math
... not talking about math←
08:09:54 <dauwhe> ... have text flowing around objects with formulas, etc.
... have text flowing around objects with formulas, etc.←
08:10:16 <dauwhe> ... or don't have control over kerning or vertical positioning
... or don't have control over kerning or vertical positioning←
08:10:25 <dauwhe> ... combine chinese and english in one sentence
... combine chinese and english in one sentence←
08:10:41 <dauwhe> Ivan: the kind of question I was asking on half-space around punctuation
Ivan Herman: the kind of question I was asking on half-space around punctuation←
08:10:54 <dauwhe> ... each feature in isolation has a small impact
... each feature in isolation has a small impact←
08:11:10 <dauwhe> ... but the aggregate distinguishes good typography from bad
... but the aggregate distinguishes good typography from bad←
08:11:42 <dauwhe> koji: but these things aren't about fonts
Koji Ishii: but these things aren't about fonts←
08:11:52 <dauwhe> Ivan: typography has lots of parts
Vladimir Levantovsky: typography has lots of parts←
08:11:57 <dauwhe> s/Ivan/Vlad/
08:12:29 <dauwhe> Vlad: year ago, CSS3 font features... demo from then doesn't work now
Vladimir Levantovsky: year ago, CSS3 font features... demo from then doesn't work now←
08:12:58 <dauwhe> astearns: question about things aren't up to snuff on web platform. One of them was kerning. Letter positoin in general?
Alan Stearns: question about things aren't up to snuff on web platform. One of them was kerning. Letter position in general?←
08:13:05 <dauwhe> ... or adding kerning table to document
... or adding kerning table to document←
08:13:16 <dauwhe> Vlad: not kerning table, talking about info in font
Vladimir Levantovsky: not kerning table, talking about info in font←
08:13:25 <dauwhe> astearns: so it's the font data itself.
Alan Stearns: so it's the font data itself.←
08:13:44 <dauwhe> Vlad: sometimes that information is not presented in the font. Sometimes it is in font but not used by reading system.
Vladimir Levantovsky: sometimes that information is not presented in the font. Sometimes it is in font but not used by reading system.←
08:13:53 <dauwhe> ... people see end result, but don't see where issue is.
... people see end result, but don't see where issue is.←
08:14:04 <dauwhe> s/positoin/position/
08:14:13 <dauwhe> ... people just see that it's wrong
... people just see that it's wrong←
08:14:29 <dauwhe> ... important small things.
... important small things.←
08:14:56 <dauwhe> astearns: requireing browsers to use kern data in the font is something that would go in CSS3 text
Alan Stearns: requireing browsers to use kern data in the font is something that would go in CSS3 text←
08:15:08 <dauwhe> ... if browsers are not doing enough, that's what we need to lock down in CSS spec.
... if browsers are not doing enough, that's what we need to lock down in CSS spec.←
08:15:30 <dauwhe> Vlad: I was talking about capturing high-level requirements to then translate into CSS
Vladimir Levantovsky: I was talking about capturing high-level requirements to then translate into CSS←
08:15:40 <dauwhe> koji: Are you talking feature stablilty?
Koji Ishii: Are you talking feature stablilty?←
08:16:09 <dauwhe> Vlad: one issue is lack of support for already-specified features
Vladimir Levantovsky: one issue is lack of support for already-specified features←
08:16:30 <dauwhe> Ivan: try to collect both pagination features and typographic features
Ivan Herman: try to collect both pagination features and typographic features←
08:16:56 <dauwhe> ... it's more work
... it's more work←
08:17:01 <dauwhe> Vlad: I'm the messenger
Vladimir Levantovsky: I'm the messenger←
08:17:14 <dauwhe> ... I collect these from companies like Dave's
... I collect these from companies like Dave's←
08:17:26 <dauwhe> ... these are people who struggle to control fine details of presentation
... these are people who struggle to control fine details of presentation←
08:17:47 <dauwhe> mgylling: parts is implemenation problem. Are there also specification issues?
Markus Gylling: parts is implemenation problem. Are there also specification issues?←
08:17:55 <dauwhe> astearns: yes, there are spec issues.
Alan Stearns: yes, there are spec issues.←
08:18:36 <dauwhe> ... control over glyph position in line box is insufficiently specified for publisher requirements.
... control over glyph position in line box is insufficiently specified for publisher requirements.←
08:18:45 <dauwhe> ... line grids
... line grids←
08:19:50 <dauwhe> dauwhe: control over justification parameters
Dave Cramer: control over justification parameters←
08:19:58 <dauwhe> Ivan: some stuff may be pushed to CSS 4
Ivan Herman: some stuff may be pushed to CSS 4←
08:20:13 <dauwhe> astearns: CSS decided to punt on justification ranges, it's future work.
Alan Stearns: CSS decided to punt on justification ranges, it's future work.←
08:20:38 <dauwhe> r12a: there are specific things we need to address, but there are things in css already that are not being implemented.
Richard Ishida: there are specific things we need to address, but there are things in css already that are not being implemented.←
08:20:46 <dauwhe> ... so we need to talk to implementers.
... so we need to talk to implementers.←
08:20:59 <dauwhe> Ivan: yes. we need test suite to help developers
Vladimir Levantovsky: yes. we need test suite to help developers←
08:21:06 <dauwhe> s/Ivan/Vlad/
08:21:23 <dauwhe> Vlad: by zeroing down on specific issues we may lose bigger picture
Vladimir Levantovsky: by zeroing down on specific issues we may lose bigger picture←
08:21:39 <dauwhe> ... we may not be ready to drill down at individual spec level
... we may not be ready to drill down at individual spec level←
08:21:56 <dauwhe> ... we need higher level conversation first, not dive directly to glyph positioning
... we need higher level conversation first, not dive directly to glyph positioning←
08:22:17 <dauwhe> ... CSS3 fonts defines support for font features.
... CSS3 fonts defines support for font features.←
08:22:31 <dauwhe> ... to support font features you need implementations supporting that part of spec
... to support font features you need implementations supporting that part of spec←
08:22:43 <dauwhe> ... and you need to enable authors to discover the same features.
... and you need to enable authors to discover the same features.←
08:22:59 <dauwhe> ... a whole another issue.
... a whole another issue.←
08:23:07 <dauwhe> ... tools need to expose these features
... tools need to expose these features←
08:25:01 <dauwhe> Vlad: there's a set of tools developed by Monotype; tool will tell you what font features are available
Vladimir Levantovsky: there's a set of tools developed by Monotype; tool will tell you what font features are available←
08:25:19 <dauwhe> ... if characters are CT, some fonts will have a swash for these, some won't.
... if characters are CT, some fonts will have a swash for these, some won't.←
08:25:26 <dauwhe> ... discovery tools are needed.
... discovery tools are needed.←
08:25:54 <dauwhe> mgylling: not obvious yes or no for us to develop requirements for authoring tools
Markus Gylling: not obvious yes or no for us to develop requirements for authoring tools←
08:26:00 <dauwhe> ... this opens a can of worms.
... this opens a can of worms.←
08:26:10 <dauwhe> Ivan: let's try to keep to what we agreed to do
Ivan Herman: let's try to keep to what we agreed to do←
08:26:20 <dauwhe> ... authoring tool world becomes a nightmare
... authoring tool world becomes a nightmare←
08:26:45 <dauwhe> dsinger: will this put into the CSS the fact that I want "CT" replaced with ligature
David Singer: will this put into the CSS the fact that I want "CT" replaced with ligature←
08:27:06 <dauwhe> ... finding what fonts do is not a problem for this group
... finding what fonts do is not a problem for this group←
08:28:07 <dauwhe> astearns: CSS font spec allows us to turn on substitution for particular element,
Alan Stearns: CSS font spec allows us to turn on substitution for particular element,←
08:28:14 <dauwhe> ... this span with those two characters.
... this span with those two characters.←
08:28:21 <dauwhe> ... can do character by character
... can do character by character←
08:28:44 <dauwhe> ... if you get to fallback font that doesn't support the feature, that turning on of feature does nothing.
... if you get to fallback font that doesn't support the feature, that turning on of feature does nothing.←
08:28:58 <dauwhe> r12a: that's an example of what Vlad was talking about.
Richard Ishida: that's an example of what Vlad was talking about.←
08:29:24 <dauwhe> Vlad: the bigger issue is that we want to reduce the difference between creation and rendering.
Vladimir Levantovsky: the bigger issue is that we want to reduce the difference between creation and rendering.←
08:29:30 <dauwhe> ... sometimes implementation problem
... sometimes implementation problem←
08:29:36 <dauwhe> ... sometimes resource get subsituted.
... sometimes resource get subsituted.←
08:29:51 <dauwhe> ... sometimes can't reuse print process for digital
... sometimes can't reuse print process for digital←
08:29:57 <dauwhe> ... trying to bring bigger scope
... trying to bring bigger scope←
08:30:08 <dauwhe> mgylling: to enable faithful representation down the line
Markus Gylling: to enable faithful representation down the line←
08:30:22 <dauwhe> ... we need to break down to concrete atomic problems
... we need to break down to concrete atomic problems←
08:30:32 <dauwhe> Vlad: one bucket is discovery of font features
Vladimir Levantovsky: one bucket is discovery of font features←
08:30:36 <dauwhe> ... don't know if in scope
... don't know if in scope←
08:30:52 <dauwhe> mgylling: authoring tool feature requirements is out of scope
Markus Gylling: authoring tool feature requirements is out of scope←
08:31:24 <dauwhe> astearns: there are stages involved.
Alan Stearns: there are stages involved.←
08:31:33 <dauwhe> ... gathering requirements
... gathering requirements←
08:31:38 <dauwhe> ... then turn to features
... then turn to features←
08:31:50 <dauwhe> ... then see if those features can be exposed to tools
... then see if those features can be exposed to tools←
08:32:04 <dauwhe> mgylling: how to translate easy to discover font features
Markus Gylling: how to translate easy to discover font features←
08:32:23 <dauwhe> astearns: we have a step where we consider tooling 'cause one chair writes tools
Alan Stearns: we have a step where we consider tooling 'cause one chair writes tools←
08:32:34 <dauwhe> ... the font feature that exposes OT features is not tool-friendly
... the font feature that exposes OT features is not tool-friendly←
08:32:40 <dauwhe> ... but even less author friendly
... but even less author friendly←
08:32:51 <dauwhe> ... tools will expose eventually, and authors will use tools
... tools will expose eventually, and authors will use tools←
08:33:02 <dauwhe> ... because feature is too obstruse for normal authors
... because feature is too obstruse for normal authors←
08:33:25 <dauwhe> mgylling: to translate to requirement for OWP
Markus Gylling: to translate to requirement for OWP←
08:33:35 <dauwhe> ... fonts have mechanism where fonts declare their available features
... fonts have mechanism where fonts declare their available features←
08:33:45 <dauwhe> ... and make it easy for tool providers
... and make it easy for tool providers←
08:33:57 <dauwhe> koji: for CSS fonts case
Koji Ishii: for CSS fonts case←
08:34:08 <dauwhe> ... matter of timing
... matter of timing←
08:34:13 <dauwhe> ... css fonts is WD
... css fonts is WD←
08:34:19 <dauwhe> ... not implemented in browser
... not implemented in browser←
08:34:27 <dauwhe> ... spec was unstable, unsupported
... spec was unstable, unsupported←
08:34:46 <dauwhe> ... once CR PR then more likely browser suppported and then tool supported
... once CR PR then more likely browser suppported and then tool supported←
08:35:05 <dauwhe> ... using features after PR solves most issues
... using features after PR solves most issues←
08:35:25 <dauwhe> ... help specs move faster to rec track
... help specs move faster to rec track←
08:35:38 <dauwhe> astearns: that timing issue will factor in to the toolability of this particular feature
Alan Stearns: that timing issue will factor in to the toolability of this particular feature←
08:35:48 <dauwhe> ... web platform doesn't have restrospection yet
... web platform doesn't have introspection into features available for a particular font yet←
08:36:27 <dauwhe> mgylling: what other features are needed?
Markus Gylling: what other features are needed?←
08:36:34 <dauwhe> ... what have you heard, VLad?
... what have you heard, VLad?←
08:36:45 <astearns> s/restrospection/introspection into features available for a particular font/
08:36:52 <dauwhe> gcapiel: let's check in with MathJax folks
Gerardo Capiel: let's check in with MathJax folks←
08:37:08 <dauwhe> Vlad: missing technology on font side for math support
Vladimir Levantovsky: missing technology on font side for math support←
08:37:27 <dauwhe> ... ISO has published a proposal for math layout technology
... ISO has published a proposal for math layout technology←
08:38:28 <ivan> Guest: Richard (r12a) Ishida, W3C
08:38:57 <r12a> scribenick: r12a
(Scribe set to Richard Ishida)
08:39:03 <r12a> dave: we want concrete imperatives, atomic?
Dave Cramer: we want concrete imperatives, atomic?←
08:40:18 <astearns> dave mentions justification and line breaking controls, composing fractions
Alan Stearns: dave mentions justification and line breaking controls, composing fractions←
08:40:27 <r12a> ... hanging punctuation, fractions (font typography related) - in the old days we made a fraction font, it was so important
... hanging punctuation, fractions (font typography related) - in the old days we made a fraction font, it was so important←
08:40:43 <r12a> ... kerning pair editing
... kerning pair editing←
08:41:09 <r12a> ... sometimes we put spans around two letters with special spacing
... sometimes we put spans around two letters with special spacing←
08:42:00 <r12a> ... typically manually editng the html - eg. with drop caps, and maybe 4-5 different types of spacing
... typically manually editng the html - eg. with drop caps, and maybe 4-5 different types of spacing←
08:42:25 <r12a> ivan: sounds frightening
Ivan Herman: sounds frightening←
08:42:43 <r12a> dave: but thats what needs to be done
Dave Cramer: but thats what needs to be done←
08:43:03 <r12a> koji: format like epub, most publishers allow user to change font...
Koji Ishii: format like epub, most publishers allow user to change font...←
08:43:37 <r12a> vlad: i don't dave is advocating to do the way previously done - its just an example of how much work goes into miniscule adjustments
Vladimir Levantovsky: i don't dave is advocating to do the way previously done - its just an example of how much work goes into miniscule adjustments←
08:43:58 <r12a> koji: is the goal of this document to describe what was done in printing or what we want
Koji Ishii: is the goal of this document to describe what was done in printing or what we want←
08:44:09 <r12a> dave: describe best practices
Dave Cramer: describe best practices←
08:44:25 <r12a> astearns: good sense to describe current practise whether or not
Alan Stearns: good sense to describe current practise whether or not←
08:44:59 <r12a> vlad: don't want digital publishing to be a poor relative of printing
Vladimir Levantovsky: don't want digital publishing to be a poor relative of printing←
08:45:14 <r12a> dave: especially with the exquisite fonts that are now produced
Dave Cramer: especially with the exquisite fonts that are now produced←
08:45:57 <r12a> brady: careful work for drop caps with hand adjustment fails when the user changes font
Brady Duga: careful work for drop caps with hand adjustment fails when the user changes font←
08:46:48 <r12a> koji: group needs a list of requirements for other groups
Koji Ishii: group needs a list of requirements for other groups←
08:47:04 <r12a> ... in the middle we have another list of what we want in digital publishing
... in the middle we have another list of what we want in digital publishing←
08:47:36 <r12a> dave: requirement that drop caps don't clash should be solved
Dave Cramer: requirement that drop caps don't clash should be solved←
08:48:26 <r12a> ... it doesn't work well in browsers now, but it should
... it doesn't work well in browsers now, but it should←
08:48:37 <r12a> markus: where do we document these?
Markus Gylling: where do we document these?←
08:48:59 <r12a> ivan: who will do the work? may be too much to ask dave to write it
Ivan Herman: who will do the work? may be too much to ask dave to write it←
08:49:10 <r12a> ... could someone else help create the content
... could someone else help create the content←
08:50:02 <r12a> markus: kerning etc do not need the tutorial stuff around them, so we may be able to put these requirements on the wiki directly
Markus Gylling: kerning etc do not need the tutorial stuff around them, so we may be able to put these requirements on the wiki directly←
08:50:35 <r12a> vlad: we need to collect these requirements from various publishers - they will have slightly different requirements
Vladimir Levantovsky: we need to collect these requirements from various publishers - they will have slightly different requirements←
08:50:52 <r12a> markus: vlad would you be willing to collect these things on the wiki
Markus Gylling: vlad would you be willing to collect these things on the wiki←
08:51:01 <r12a> vlad: i'm not sure I can do this
Vladimir Levantovsky: i'm not sure I can do this←
08:51:54 <r12a> ... i hear of the problems, but i don't work with them
... i hear of the problems, but i don't work with them←
08:52:44 <r12a> dave: we need to snag someone from the community who are trying to solve these problems in the comp houses
Dave Cramer: we need to snag someone from the community who are trying to solve these problems in the comp houses←
08:53:26 <r12a> ... we don't have many such w3c members
... we don't have many such w3c members←
08:53:32 <r12a> ivan: we're working on that
Ivan Herman: we're working on that←
08:54:20 <r12a> koji: i'm working on a spreadsheet in japan and asking publishers to fill in issues - 40% author issues, 30% implementation, 10% css
Koji Ishii: i'm working on a spreadsheet in japan and asking publishers to fill in issues - 40% author issues, 30% implementation, 10% css←
08:54:42 <r12a> vlad: any other publishers?
Vladimir Levantovsky: any other publishers?←
08:54:53 <r12a> pearson
pearson←
08:55:18 <r12a> vlad: even educational book publishers
Vladimir Levantovsky: even educational book publishers←
08:56:08 <r12a> markus: there are two things, we all know we need experts, but someone also needs to coordinate the work
Markus Gylling: there are two things, we all know we need experts, but someone also needs to coordinate the work←
08:56:23 <r12a> ... would you be willing to collect and describe (rather than be the expert)
... would you be willing to collect and describe (rather than be the expert)←
08:56:29 <r12a> vlad: i'll try
Vladimir Levantovsky: i'll try←
08:56:46 <r12a> markus: so you'll be the hub and get things moving
Markus Gylling: so you'll be the hub and get things moving←
08:57:03 <r12a> ivan: on the long term i think this may become a separate document
Ivan Herman: on the long term i think this may become a separate document←
08:57:16 <r12a> markus: eventually nothing will remain a wiki page
Markus Gylling: eventually nothing will remain a wiki page←
08:58:04 <r12a> r12a: don't forget jlreq
Richard Ishida: don't forget jlreq←
08:58:40 <r12a> dave: i'm concerned that it might be hard to disentangle things - typography affects page layout
Dave Cramer: i'm concerned that it might be hard to disentangle things - typography affects page layout←
Vladimir Levantovsky: agrees to be coordinator to collect and marshall these requirements - try to bring in people from Aptara and Jouve to supply expertise←09:00:33 <r12a> vlad: can we get input from people outside the w3c
Vladimir Levantovsky: can we get input from people outside the w3c←
09:00:37 <r12a> answer yes
answer yes←
09:01:02 <r12a> vlad: success depends on input - we shouldn't limit to members
Vladimir Levantovsky: success depends on input - we shouldn't limit to members←
09:01:49 <r12a> walkley: i chair Uk digital publishing association so i can get them involved
George Walkley: i chair Uk digital publishing association so i can get them involved←
09:02:00 <r12a> ivan mentions others
ivan mentions others←
09:04:14 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?←
09:04:14 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is←
09:04:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see koji, gcapiel, ddahl, walkley, liam, Sharad, frank, taocai, bobby, dsinger, dauwhe, Vlad, Zakim, ivan, r12a, kawabata2, brady_duga, mgylling, tmichel__, benjaminsko,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see koji, gcapiel, ddahl, walkley, liam, Sharad, frank, taocai, bobby, dsinger, dauwhe, Vlad, Zakim, ivan, r12a, kawabata2, brady_duga, mgylling, tmichel__, benjaminsko,←
09:04:16 <Zakim> ... manu, _nikos_office, RRSAgent, astearns, trackbot, plinss
Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu, _nikos_office, RRSAgent, astearns, trackbot, plinss←
09:04:20 <r12a> ADJOURNED for today
ADJOURNED for today←
09:04:23 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes←
09:04:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-dpub-minutes.html ivan
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-dpub-minutes.html ivan←
09:04:37 <r12a> meet for restaurant at 6pm in lobby
meet for restaurant at 6pm in lobby