## Minutes of 11 November 2013

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F
Present:
Brady Duga, Dave Cramer, George Walkley, Gerardo Capiel, Ivan Herman, Koji Ishii, Markus Gylling, Vladimir Levantovsky, Thierry Michel, Sharad Garg, Marilyn Siderwicz, Ben Ko,
Guests
Jeff Jaffe (W3C), Richard Ishida (W3C), Manu Sporny (Digital Bazaar), David Singer(Apple), , Bobby Tung (Wanderer)
Chair
Markus Gylling
Scribe
Vladimir Levantovsky, Ivan Herman, Dave Cramer, Richard Ishida
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
1. Dave's document will be recast as latinReq. It will once published include only layout expectations (no refs to CSS etc). link
2. DPUB will add WOFF to list of required technologies for Digital Publishing. link
Topics
00:31:51 <ivan> Meeting: F2F Meeting, Shenzhen, 1st day
00:31:58 <ivan> Chair: Markus
01:01:06 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: scribe guide:  http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F
01:16:56 <ivan> zakim, this is 3782

Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, I see SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 3782".

01:28:48 <Vlad> scribe: Vlad

(Scribe set to Vladimir Levantovsky)

01:30:01 <Vlad> markus: introductions and opening of the meeting

Markus Gylling: introductions and opening of the meeting

01:31:15 <Vlad> mgylling: reviewing the agenda for the day

Markus Gylling: reviewing the agenda for the day

01:33:00 <Vlad> mgylling: ... and for the whole WG meeting including Tuesday

Markus Gylling: ... and for the whole WG meeting including Tuesday

01:36:58 <Zakim> sorry, tmichel, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tmichel, I don't know what conference this is

01:39:21 <Vlad> WG - discussing the additional agenda items for the meeting

IG - discussing the additional agenda items for the meeting

01:39:33 <Vlad> s/WG/IG/
01:42:14 <ivan> Topic: Pagination

### 1. Pagination

01:42:28 <mgylling> agenda: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F
01:42:52 <Vlad> topic: Pagination
01:44:09 <Vlad> mgylling: The home for pagintaion spec will be CSS WG. We want to help them with pagination support to improve support in existing browsers

Markus Gylling: The home for pagination spec will be CSS WG. We want to help them with pagination support to improve support in existing browsers

01:45:01 <Vlad> mgylling: among many things we need to do is complete set of requirements

Markus Gylling: among many things we need to do is complete set of requirements

01:45:15 <Vlad> mgylling: asking Dave to present

Markus Gylling: asking Dave to present

01:45:57 <ivan> -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/ Dave's draft

Ivan Herman: -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/ Dave's draft

01:46:36 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: CSS is working on many things that would be considered building blocks of pagination. We need to figure out what needs to happen there for CSS to become a complete tool kit.
01:47:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

01:48:13 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: It is not a easy job, page is a complex object and we need to be able to identify them (first page of a chapter, paragraph, objects in the page that may require different desing or content)
01:49:35 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: ... outlining the scope of work items that have been conducted in CSS
:  ... outlining the scope of work items that have been conducted in CSS
01:50:02 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

01:50:02 <Zakim> apparently SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended, ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: apparently SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended, ivan

01:50:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see bobby, Ralph, cwdoh, Vlad, Sharad, r12a, karen, tmichel, marilyn, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, walkley, gcapiel, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bobby, Ralph, cwdoh, Vlad, Sharad, r12a, karen, tmichel, marilyn, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, walkley, gcapiel, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss

01:50:22 <Vlad> gerardo: is it problematic to accomplish the process of switching between pages?

Gerardo Capiel: is it problematic to accomplish the process of switching between pages?

01:50:46 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

01:50:47 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started

01:51:00 <Zakim> +Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ralph

01:51:02 <Zakim> -Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ralph

01:51:02 <Zakim> +Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ralph

01:51:06 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: some of this depends on user agent implementations, some are user-directed actions
Dave Cramer:  some of this depends on user agent implementations, some are user-directed actions
01:51:58 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: some page switching is automatic (reached the end of the page and want to switch to the next)
:  some page switching is automatic (reached the end of the page and want to switch to the next)
01:52:51 <Vlad> Brady: how do we know what the page run is, what is the page box, etc. Sometimes you may have more than one page on screen?

Brady Duga: how do we know what the page run is, what is the page box, etc. Sometimes you may have more than one page on screen?

01:53:13 <Vlad> Gerardo: what is the mechanism to file these questions and requirements?

Gerardo Capiel: what is the mechanism to file these questions and requirements?

01:54:01 <Vlad> Brady: beleives this may go outside of the CSS territory and will involve more concepts including work done in HTML

Brady Duga: believes this may go outside of the CSS territory and will involve more concepts including work done in HTML

01:55:17 <Vlad> mgylling: today it is unclear what needs to be done and most implementations don't do it right

Markus Gylling: today it is unclear what needs to be done and most implementations don't do it right

01:55:57 <Vlad> mgylling: suggests to populate the wiki page with the event requirements for pagination

Markus Gylling: suggests to populate the wiki page with the event requirements for pagination

01:56:47 <Vlad> Dave C, and Markus discussing the needs of the pagination work and how to collect a complete set of issues

Dave C, and Markus discussing the needs of the pagination work and how to collect a complete set of issues

01:57:23 <Vlad> Ivan: we may want to discuss this tomorrow (see agenda) when Robin is here

Ivan Herman: we may want to discuss this tomorrow (see agenda) when Robin is here

01:59:23 <Vlad> Ivan, Markus, Dave, Brady discussing the work done in HTML WG regarding DOM, pagination events (such as document.ready), etc.

Ivan, Markus, Dave, Brady discussing the work done in HTML WG regarding DOM, pagination events (such as document.ready), etc.

01:59:49 <gcapiel> zakim, Gerardo is really gcapiel

Gerardo Capiel: zakim, gcapiel is really gcapiel

01:59:49 <Zakim> sorry, gcapiel, I do not recognize a party named 'Gerardo'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, gcapiel, I do not recognize a party named 'gcapiel'

01:59:49 <Vlad> It is unclear what is currently done / implemented vs. what else needs to be done

It is unclear what is currently done / implemented vs. what else needs to be done

02:00:17 <Vlad> s/Gerardo/gcapiel/g
02:00:50 <Zakim> -Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ralph

02:02:33 <Vlad> mgylling: creating a list of Functional Requirements on wiki, to be posted here later

Markus Gylling: creating a list of Functional Requirements on wiki, to be posted here later

02:05:38 <dauwhe_> Font load events module link: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-font-load-events/

02:06:33 <Vlad> ... continuing the discussion of the requirements, catgorizing them for events, DOM, APIs

... continuing the discussion of the requirements, categorizing them for events, DOM, APIs

02:06:49 <ivan> Guest: Karen (karen) Myers, W3C
02:07:23 <ivan> Guest: Bobby (bobby) Tung, Wanderer
02:09:18 <Vlad> action gcapiel event s related to TTS and pagination

Action Gerardo Capiel event s related to TTS and pagination

02:09:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Event s related to tts and pagination [on Gerardo Capiel - due 2013-11-18].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-9 - Event s related to tts and pagination [on Gerardo Capiel - due 2013-11-18].

02:09:52 <Vlad> actioin Brady paginations related to DOM access

action Brady pagination related to DOM access

02:10:08 <Vlad> action Brady paginations related to DOM access
02:10:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Paginations related to dom access [on Brady Duga - due 2013-11-18].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-10 - Paginations related to dom access [on Brady Duga - due 2013-11-18].

02:13:57 <mgylling> notes for Brady and Gerardos action items:

Markus Gylling: notes for Brady and Gerardo 's action items:

02:14:00 <mgylling> Functional Requirements re dynamic pagination: events and DOM

Markus Gylling: Functional Requirements re dynamic pagination: events and DOM

02:14:02 <mgylling>  -  book load

Markus Gylling: - book load

02:14:04 <mgylling>  -  page load

Markus Gylling: - page load

02:14:05 <mgylling>  -  page change (e.g. reflow after font size change)

Markus Gylling: - page change (e.g. reflow after font size change)

02:14:07 <mgylling>  -  what page loaded

Markus Gylling: - what page loaded

02:14:08 <mgylling>  -  when a page is loaded

Markus Gylling: - when a page is loaded

02:14:10 <mgylling>  - when a font is loaded (cf CSS3 Fonts Loaded Events Module 3)

Markus Gylling: - when a font is loaded (cf CSS3 Fonts Loaded Events Module 3)

02:14:11 <mgylling>  - TTS reaches end of page, event to auto-trigger page turn

Markus Gylling: - TTS reaches end of page, event to auto-trigger page turn

02:14:13 <mgylling>   (note two scenarios: external AT vs self-voicing)

Markus Gylling: (note two scenarios: external AT vs self-voicing)

02:14:14 <mgylling>
02:14:16 <mgylling> DOM
02:14:17 <mgylling>  Whats a page, how to I reference it

Markus Gylling: Whats a page, how to I reference it

02:14:19 <mgylling>  I get an event that a page is loaded, how do I get to that page

Markus Gylling: I get an event that a page is loaded, how do I get to that page

02:14:20 <mgylling>
02:14:21 <mgylling> API
02:14:22 <mgylling>  turn a page

Markus Gylling: turn a page

02:14:23 <mgylling>  go to a page

Markus Gylling: go to a page

02:14:53 <dauwhe_> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html
02:16:21 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: about to present pagintation document

Dave Cramer:  about to present pagination document

02:16:30 <Vlad> (see link above)

02:21:42 <Vlad> Ivan: We need to separate the concepts of what's in the spec vs. what is current implementations do

Ivan Herman: We need to separate the concepts of what's in the spec vs. what is current implementations do

02:23:37 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: we may need to identify additional constraints for aligning pages (speaking about wodows and orphans on a page)
Dave Cramer:  we may need to identify additional constraints for aligning pages (speaking about widows and orphans on a page)
02:23:55 <Vlad> s/wowos/widows/
02:25:06 <Vlad> r12a: speaking about the need to identify clear items that need to be addressed by either CSS or HTML or other groups

Richard Ishida: speaking about the need to identify clear items that need to be addressed by either CSS or HTML or other groups

02:26:29 <Vlad> Ivan: we need to capture and explain the issues that will define the direction for CSS and HTML WGs work

Ivan Herman: we need to capture and explain the issues that will define the direction for CSS and HTML WGs work

02:27:23 <r12a> q+
02:29:11 <ivan> ack r12a

Ivan Herman: ack r12a

02:29:21 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended

02:31:00 <manu> Present+ Manu_Sporny
02:34:32 <ivan> Guest: Manu (manu) Sporny, Digital Bazaar
02:34:39 <Vlad> Brady: on the issue of optimizing for page breaks and how it is currently done. A lot of this is currently done manually and the question is if there is an algorithmic solution to this

Brady Duga: on the issue of optimizing for page breaks and how it is currently done. A lot of this is currently done manually and the question is if there is an algorithmic solution to this

02:36:30 <Vlad> mgylling: suggestion to review the TOC and discuss the areas that are covered / not covered yet

Markus Gylling: suggestion to review the TOC and discuss the areas that are covered / not covered yet

02:37:10 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: Most of it is jsut a sceleton now to outline what needs to be covered
Dave Cramer:  Most of it is just a skeleton now to outline what needs to be covered
02:39:05 <Vlad> mgylling: top level questions about locals and cultures, how to transgress both the paper print format and dynamic pagination for adaptive content

Markus Gylling: top level questions about locales and cultures, how to transgress both the paper print format and dynamic pagination for adaptive content

02:39:15 <Vlad> ... layout

... layout

02:41:03 <Vlad> mgylling: Adobe joined the IG recently and we hope they can contribute from tools perspective

Markus Gylling: Adobe joined the IG recently and we hope they can contribute from tools perspective

02:43:02 <Vlad> Dave Cramer: items to consider include internationalization, cultural differences, types of content (books, magazines, etc.) we need to address, etc.

Dave Cramer:  items to consider include internationalization, cultural differences, types of content (books, magazines, etc.) we need to address, etc.

02:43:23 <Vlad> s/locals/locales/
02:44:51 <Vlad> coffee break - 20 min

coffee break - 20 min

03:24:19 <ivan> scribe: ivan
03:25:37 <ivan> mgylling: we have to settle the scope question

Markus Gylling: we have to settle the scope question

03:25:50 <ivan> … the document should be clear what is in scope and not

… the document should be clear what is in scope and not

03:26:00 <ivan> … probably in the status or in the abstract

… probably in the status or in the abstract

03:26:26 <ivan> … we have noted that we are not willing (yet) to rule out some of the locale issues

… we have noted that we are not willing (yet) to rule out some of the locale issues

03:26:58 <ivan> dauwhe_: some of us had discussions that widow has their counterpart in, eg, chinese

Dave Cramer: some of us had discussions that widow has their counterpart in, eg, chinese

03:33:59 <ivan> mgylling: how about we list candidates for exclusion

Markus Gylling: how about we list candidates for exclusion

03:34:18 <ivan> dauwhe_: maybe we start with domains, and then language etc.

Dave Cramer: maybe we start with domains, and then language etc.

03:38:38 <ivan> gcapiel: what is the criteria for exclusion?

Gerardo Capiel: what is the criteria for exclusion?

03:38:54 <ivan> dauwhe_: which has some narrow rules that are not applicable outside of that domain

Dave Cramer: which has some narrow rules that are not applicable outside of that domain

03:39:07 <ivan> … althogh they may illustrate the extreme issues that are more in common

… although they may illustrate the extreme issues that are more in common

03:39:43 <ivan> … eg, religious texts may have very complicated requirements, but, eg the footnotes used in a bible illustrate a lot of problems appearing elsewhere

… eg, religious texts may have very complicated requirements, but, eg the footnotes used in a bible illustrate a lot of problems appearing elsewhere

03:40:11 <ivan> brady_duga: and if we exclude by simplicity, then we may exclude features that are useful elsewhere

Brady Duga: and if we exclude by simplicity, then we may exclude features that are useful elsewhere

03:43:25 <ivan> ivan: is fixed layout out of scope of this document?

Ivan Herman: is fixed layout out of scope of this document?

03:43:49 <ivan> brady_duga: fixed layout is based on explicit techniques and we may not need special css for it

Brady Duga: fixed layout is based on explicit techniques and we may not need special css for it

03:45:58 <ivan> ivan: if we exclude non-books (newspapers, magazines, etc), we have to make it clear that this is not out of scope for the IG but for the first version of the pagination document

Ivan Herman: if we exclude non-books (newspapers, magazines, etc), we have to make it clear that this is not out of scope for the IG but for the first version of the pagination document

03:46:40 <ivan> brady_duga: it is not clear how to define what is a journal or not,

Brady Duga: it is not clear how to define what is a journal or not,

03:47:18 <ivan> dauwhe_: one of the aspect is that the content spreads opver the document, inclusion of advertising, etc

Dave Cramer: one of the aspect is that the content spreads opver the document, inclusion of advertising, etc

03:47:33 <ivan> … industries are organized around these distinctions

… industries are organized around these distinctions

03:48:16 <ivan> jeff: we have to be careful not to use the word 'out of scope', just not to be offputting?

Jeff Jaffe: we have to be careful not to use the word 'out of scope', just not to be offputting?

03:48:37 <ivan> dauwhe_: yes, we should say something like 'our initial concern', something like that

Dave Cramer: yes, we should say something like 'our initial concern', something like that

03:48:46 <ivan> Guest: Jeff Jaffe, W3C
03:52:21 <ivan> brady_duga: poetry? I am not even sure what the rules are?

Brady Duga: poetry? I am not even sure what the rules are?

03:53:26 <ivan> koji: CSS has discussed on how much poetry should be covered, left alighn first line, and then other alignments..

Koji Ishii: CSS has discussed on how much poetry should be covered, left alighn first line, and then other alignments..

03:53:43 <ivan> … the group does not really know

… the group does not really know

03:54:11 <ivan> dauwhe_: there are a number of books I have that can be turned into CSS without a problem

Dave Cramer: there are a number of books I have that can be turned into CSS without a problem

03:54:54 <ivan> koji: it is fine to include poetry, but we have to know how publishers want to layout poetry

Koji Ishii: it is fine to include poetry, but we have to know how publishers want to layout poetry

03:55:15 <ivan> mgylling: some poetry publishers told me that they use fixed layout

Markus Gylling: some poetry publishers told me that they use fixed layout

03:55:51 <ivan> … they did not want a new page for a poem, but rather scroll

… they did not want a new page for a poem, but rather scroll

03:55:54 <ivan> … this is not doable

… this is not doable

03:56:13 <ivan> … breaking the poem into multiple pages is not acceptable

… breaking the poem into multiple pages is not acceptable

03:56:28 <ivan> koji: we need to talk to poetry publishing

Koji Ishii: we need to talk to poetry publishing

03:56:38 <ivan> … we really need to discuss them

… we really need to discuss them

03:56:41 <ivan> q+

q+

03:57:00 <ivan> q-

q-

03:59:20 <mgylling> these are the domains for which we will request additional editors, and which will be covered in later versions of the pagination doc:

Markus Gylling: these are the domains for which we will request additional editors, and which will be covered in later versions of the pagination doc:

04:00:51 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started

04:00:58 <Zakim> + +1.917.447.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.917.447.aaaa

04:01:07 <Zakim> - +1.917.447.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.917.447.aaaa

04:01:09 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended

04:01:09 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.917.447.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.917.447.aaaa

04:02:13 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

04:02:14 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started

04:02:46 <mgylling> DOMAINS

Markus Gylling: DOMAINS

04:02:47 <mgylling> - newspapers

Markus Gylling: - newspapers

04:02:48 <mgylling> - magazines

Markus Gylling: - magazines

04:02:50 <mgylling> - childrens picture books

Markus Gylling: - childrens picture books

04:02:51 <mgylling> - comics / manga

Markus Gylling: - comics / manga

04:02:51 <mgylling> - poetry

Markus Gylling: - poetry

04:03:12 <ivan> mgylling: next area is locales

Markus Gylling: next area is locales

04:03:20 <ivan> Guest: Richard Ishida, W3C
04:04:18 <ivan> dauwhe_: there are ongoing efforts for other languages: indic, korean, chinese

Dave Cramer: there are ongoing efforts for other languages: indic, korean, chinese

04:04:36 <ivan> richard: the Chinese IG for HTML5 is working on this

Richard Ishida: the Chinese IG for HTML5 is working on this

04:05:20 <ivan> bobby: jlreq completed almost everything, but not applied fully for chinese, so what we have to document is the difference

Bobby Tung: jlreq completed almost everything, but not applied fully for chinese, so what we have to document is the difference

04:05:37 <ivan> richard: we would love to find people to do the same for tibetian, thai, hebrew, ...

Richard Ishida: we would love to find people to do the same for tibetian, thai, hebrew, ...

04:06:02 <ivan> dauwhe_: my initial insticts were that these should be out of scope

Dave Cramer: my initial insticts were that these should be out of scope

04:06:58 <ivan> richard: we should have 2 different doc, western layout document, and then there is one that says where css has to cover certain issues. These latter are not necessarily for western only

Richard Ishida: we should have 2 different doc, western layout document, and then there is one that says where css has to cover certain issues. These latter are not necessarily for western only

04:07:17 <ivan> dauwhe_: that would make sense, it would make it easier to move forward

Dave Cramer: that would make sense, it would make it easier to move forward

04:07:19 <ivan> q+

q+

04:08:34 <mgylling> Ivan: we need to be clear if we do westernoreq, also need to set up better contacts and relationship with the korean, chinese req groups, be in the loop for documents that are under preparation
Ivan Herman: we need to be clear if we do westernoreq, also need to set up better contacts and relationship with the korean, chinese req groups, be in the loop for documents that are under preparation [ Scribe Assist by Markus Gylling ]
04:09:08 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

zakim, who is here?

04:09:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see r12a, walkley, brady_duga, koji, bobby, nikos, cwdoh_, msiderwicz_, Ralph, manu, _nikos_office, Vlad, karen, tmichel, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, gcapiel, RRSAgent,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see r12a, walkley, brady_duga, koji, bobby, nikos, cwdoh_, msiderwicz_, Ralph, manu, _nikos_office, Vlad, karen, tmichel, mgylling, dauwhe_, liam, gcapiel, RRSAgent,

04:09:10 <Zakim> ... Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Zakim, ivan, astearns, trackbot, plinss

04:09:39 <ivan> richard: it is a bit difficult with i18n is being a separate group

Richard Ishida: it is a bit difficult with i18n is being a separate group

04:09:51 <ivan> … the best is to find somebody in both groups in general

… the best is to find somebody in both groups in general

04:10:01 <ivan> … we are also looking at requirements, too

… we are also looking at requirements, too

04:10:14 <ivan> … eg I am looking at ways of having counter styles

… eg I am looking at ways of having counter styles

04:10:28 <ivan> … and that would be relevant to this group, too

… and that would be relevant to this group, too

04:10:37 <ivan> mgylling: it sounds like a coordination nightmare

Markus Gylling: it sounds like a coordination nightmare

04:11:00 <ivan> … we need to prepare a document quickly

… we need to prepare a document quickly

04:11:17 <ivan> koji: how about making levels

Koji Ishii: how about making levels

04:11:20 <Zakim> + +1.917.447.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.917.447.aaaa

04:12:02 <dauwhe_> zakim, aaa is benjaminsko

Dave Cramer: zakim, aaa is benjaminsko

04:12:02 <Zakim> sorry, dauwhe_, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, dauwhe_, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'

04:12:11 <dauwhe_> zakim, aaaa is benjaminsko

Dave Cramer: zakim, aaaa is benjaminsko

04:12:11 <Zakim> +benjaminsko; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +benjaminsko; got it

04:13:23 <ivan> ivan: what about non-English cultures and usages?

Ivan Herman: what about non-English cultures and usages?

04:13:48 <ivan> dauwhe_: pragmatically the content should include what we get input for

Dave Cramer: pragmatically the content should include what we get input for

04:14:16 <ivan> mgylling: we would like to get the document good enough that it would be reliable for further work

Markus Gylling: we would like to get the document good enough that it would be reliable for further work

04:20:08 <ivan> brady_duga: are the other document (jlreq, etc) include all features for publishing

Brady Duga: are the other document (jlreq, etc) include all features for publishing

04:20:13 <ivan> dauwhe_: yes, it does

Dave Cramer: yes, it does

04:20:49 <ivan> richard: it is more oriented to print like stuffs than electronic ones

Richard Ishida: it is more oriented to print like stuffs than electronic ones

04:21:01 <ivan> … the focus was printing, and not pages

… the focus was printing, and not pages

04:21:19 <ivan> koji: it says its focus is for regular priting

Koji Ishii: it says its focus is for regular priting

04:21:30 <ivan> richard: the korean will be different, it may be underspecified

Richard Ishida: the korean will be different, it may be underspecified

04:22:05 <ivan> … klreq is probably oriented towards print, but will not have so much information than jlreq

… klreq is probably oriented towards print, but will not have so much information than jlreq

04:22:12 <ivan> … you will need more information

04:22:22 <ivan> … we need people in countries to develop that

… we need people in countries to develop that

04:22:32 <ivan> mgylling: and we have to be realistic here

Markus Gylling: and we have to be realistic here

04:22:50 <ivan> … the core observation seems to be

… the core observation seems to be

04:23:19 <mgylling> Resolution: Dave's document will be recast as latinReq. It will once published include only layout expectations (no refs to CSS etc).

RESOLUTION: Dave's document will be recast as latinReq. It will once published include only layout expectations (no refs to CSS etc).

04:23:20 <mgylling> There will be an additional separate document which more directly poses requirements on CSS etc, which will draw from jlReq, latinReq, klReq etc.

Markus Gylling: There will be an additional separate document which more directly poses requirements on CSS etc, which will draw from jlReq, latinReq, klReq etc.

04:23:59 <ivan> mgylling: is there anyting in the question list?

Markus Gylling: is there anyting in the question list?

04:24:40 <ivan> dauwhe_: how would the group work on the document itself

Dave Cramer: how would the group work on the document itself

04:24:54 <ivan> … for simplicity is that I filter through me

… for simplicity is that I filter through me

04:26:12 <ivan> Topic: Web payments

### 3. Web payments

04:27:01 <ivan> manu: I am the chair of the RDFa WG and the JSON-LD community group, and I am also co-chair of the web payment CG

Manu Sporny: I am the chair of the RDFa WG and the JSON-LD community group, and I am also co-chair of the web payment CG

04:27:12 <ivan> … the goal is to integrate payment into the architecture of the web

… the goal is to integrate payment into the architecture of the web

04:27:32 <ivan> … ie, the browser should offer a facility where payment would go directly to the user

… ie, the browser should offer a facility where payment would go directly to the user

04:27:45 <ivan> … web payment should make it very easy to buy books on line

… web payment should make it very easy to buy books on line

04:28:02 <ivan> … the question is whether this is of interest for this group?

… the question is whether this is of interest for this group?

04:28:25 <ivan> dauwhe_: we are certainly interested in the concept

Dave Cramer: we are certainly interested in the concept

04:28:37 <ivan> brady_duga: I am happy to bring the knowledge back

Brady Duga: I am happy to bring the knowledge back

04:29:17 <ivan> Vlad: is it somethign that you envisage something to be that would replace the commercial solutions?

Vladimir Levantovsky: is it something that you envisage something to be that would replace the commercial solutions?

04:29:30 <dauwhe_> s/somethign/something/
04:29:31 <ivan> manu: that is certainly what we would like to be

Manu Sporny: that is certainly what we would like to be

04:29:45 <ivan> … json-ld as well as RDFa was for interest for us for this reason

… json-ld as well as RDFa was for interest for us for this reason

04:30:04 <ivan> … eg, having the license, bills, etc, sent back in machine readable ways

… eg, having the license, bills, etc, sent back in machine readable ways

04:30:15 <manu> https://payswarm.com/intro

Manu Sporny: https://payswarm.com/intro

04:30:34 <ivan> … it is not only getting money from A to B, but other things

… it is not only getting money from A to B, but other things

04:30:59 <manu> https://payswarm.com/join

Manu Sporny: https://payswarm.com/join

04:31:42 <ivan> mgylling: do we believe that the current ebook retail work has usage pattern that would challenge your model

Markus Gylling: do we believe that the current ebook retail work has usage pattern that would challenge your model

04:31:50 <ivan> … I do not know, but it is a question

… I do not know, but it is a question

04:32:04 <ivan> dauwhe_: we are of course interested to change the patterns

Dave Cramer: we are of course interested to change the patterns

04:32:30 <ivan> manu: selling ebooks are of course a big use case for us

Manu Sporny: selling ebooks are of course a big use case for us

04:32:42 <ivan> … we would like to have more expertise in the group

… we would like to have more expertise in the group

04:33:00 <ivan> mgylling: we certainly have to take this back to our companies, because we are geeks here...

Markus Gylling: we certainly have to take this back to our companies, because we are geeks here...

04:42:00 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
06:38:11 <dauwhe> topic: csswg summary

### 4. CSS WG summary

06:39:03 <ivan> zakim, this is dpub

Ivan Herman: zakim, this is dpub

06:39:03 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named 'dpub' in progress or scheduled at this time

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named 'dpub' in progress or scheduled at this time

06:39:29 <dauwhe> mgylling: atomic advice from discussion

Markus Gylling: atomic advice from discussion

06:39:44 <dauwhe> ... if you can't have a unicorn, can you have a pony?

... if you can't have a unicorn, can you have a pony?

06:39:53 <ivan> zakim, this is 3782

Ivan Herman: zakim, this is 3782

06:39:53 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named '3782' in progress or scheduled at this time

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I do not see a conference named '3782' in progress or scheduled at this time

06:40:02 <dauwhe> ... csswg asked what would be second-best solution for these use cases

... csswg asked what would be second-best solution for these use cases

06:40:20 <dauwhe> ... this idea of fallback may apply to more than csswg

... this idea of fallback may apply to more than csswg

06:40:27 <dauwhe> ... they asked for as much detail as possible

... they asked for as much detail as possible

06:40:44 <dauwhe> ... document even edge cases; this will save solution designers lots of guessing

... document even edge cases; this will save solution designers lots of guessing

06:41:14 <dauwhe> ... don't have to prioritize everything, but certainly mention most important things of document

... don't have to prioritize everything, but certainly mention most important things of document

06:41:43 <dauwhe> Richard: do on locale-by-locale basis, with documentation

Richard Ishida: do on locale-by-locale basis, with documentation

06:41:57 <dauwhe> s/Richard/r12a/
06:42:07 <dauwhe> r12a: asked for lots of examples

Richard Ishida: asked for lots of examples

06:42:28 <dauwhe> brady_duga: they also asked for data.

Brady Duga: they also asked for data.

06:42:56 <dauwhe> ... if we can provide evidence for various requirements,  the more the better

... if we can provide evidence for various requirements, the more the better

06:43:27 <dauwhe> ivan: although a certain feature is primarily for publishing, it's also useful for tradional browsing.

Ivan Herman: although a certain feature is primarily for publishing, it's also useful for tradional browsing.

06:43:34 <dauwhe> ivan: Bert said that.

Ivan Herman: Bert said that.

06:43:49 <dauwhe> ... the motivation was to convince those less interested in pagination to work on that

... the motivation was to convince those less interested in pagination to work on that

06:44:09 <dauwhe> r12a: Dean was very focued on how market prioritizes features.

Richard Ishida: Dean was very focued on how market prioritizes features.

06:44:47 <dauwhe> ... Apple agrees ruby feature is great, but won't implement because of  lack of evicdence/market

... Apple agrees ruby feature is great, but won't implement because of lack of evicdence/market

06:45:04 <dauwhe> mgylling: is it DPUB's place to gather evidence?

Markus Gylling: is it DPUB's place to gather evidence?

06:45:23 <dauwhe> ... asks Brady how they get data/priorities from publishers.

... asks Brady how they get data/priorities from publishers.

06:45:37 <dauwhe> brady_duga: publisher-driven based on blackmail

Brady Duga: publisher-driven based on market pressures

06:45:54 <dauwhe> ... line breaking is terrible. But people still buy our books.

... line breaking is terrible. But people still buy our books.

06:47:08 <dauwhe> dsinger: it's important to say that your book can't be sold unless feature x is implemented.

David Singer: it's important to say that your book can't be sold unless feature x is implemented.

06:47:44 <dauwhe> brady_duga: hanging punctuation as example

Brady Duga: hanging punctuation as example

06:47:57 <dauwhe> ivan: reaching out to publishers becomes very important

Ivan Herman: reaching out to publishers becomes very important

06:48:11 <dauwhe> ... use IPDF contacts to get data on priorities

... use IPDF contacts to get data on priorities

06:48:22 <dauwhe> mgylling: that applies across everything we do

Markus Gylling: that applies across everything we do

06:48:58 <dauwhe> ... this is something new. A dedicated survey: these are the requirements we've gathered. Prioritize them for us.

... this is something new. A dedicated survey: these are the requirements we've gathered. Prioritize them for us.

06:49:12 <dauwhe> ... that's one way to get there. I don't see how we can easily gather data.

... that's one way to get there. I don't see how we can easily gather data.

06:49:20 <dauwhe> ivan: we will see what we can do.

Ivan Herman: we will see what we can do.

06:49:55 <dauwhe> mgylling: in terms of moving forward, concrete proposal. As soon as there's a new section in pagination doc, to ask Dave to suggest agenda item for CSS telcom

Markus Gylling: in terms of moving forward, concrete proposal. As soon as there's a new section in pagination doc, to ask Dave to suggest agenda item for CSS telcom

06:50:16 <dauwhe> ... so they can review. DPUB members can then join CSSWG telcom to discuss particular issue.

... so they can review. DPUB members can then join CSSWG telcom to discuss particular issue.

06:50:28 <dauwhe> ivan: Bert is in both groups.

Ivan Herman: Bert is in both groups.

06:50:42 <dauwhe> mgylling: anything else to encode from previous session? Great!

Markus Gylling: anything else to encode from previous session? Great!

06:50:54 <dauwhe> ... ten minutes till coffee break!

... ten minutes till coffee break!

06:51:27 <dauwhe> ... Vlad, set stage for fonts and typography session. What kinds of problems/issues will we discuss?

... Vlad, set stage for fonts and typography session. What kinds of problems/issues will we discuss?

06:51:41 <dauwhe> ... important for us to understand what you're working on.

... important for us to understand what you're working on.

06:51:56 <dauwhe> ... give us ten minutes to talk about overarching issues.

... give us ten minutes to talk about overarching issues.

06:52:22 <dauwhe> Vlad: it's not what's in my brain, or from my company. It's from the people I interact with, people with actual problems.

Vladimir Levantovsky: it's not what's in my brain, or from my company. It's from the people I interact with, people with actual problems.

06:52:33 <dauwhe> ... that's how I created set of issues

... that's how I created set of issues

06:52:42 <dauwhe> ... tried to create categorys.

... tried to create categories.

06:52:55 <dauwhe> ... first: font licensing. From discussions with publishers.

... first: font licensing. From discussions with publishers.

06:53:12 <dauwhe> ... are publishing legally allowed to use existing font licensing?

... are publishing legally allowed to use existing font licensing?

06:53:21 <dauwhe> ... under what conditions can it be used?

... under what conditions can it be used?

06:53:38 <dauwhe> ... we cannot influence the license itself.

... we cannot influence the license itself.

06:54:00 <dauwhe> ... if I have a license, is there enough of a toolset to embed fonts and satisfy conditions of license.

... if I have a license, is there enough of a toolset to embed fonts and satisfy conditions of license.

06:54:15 <dauwhe> ... license may say that font cannot *easily* be used.

... license may say that font cannot *easily* be used.

06:54:23 <dauwhe> ... not clear how these tools work.

... not clear how these tools work.

06:54:35 <dauwhe> ... some people are unaware of tools.

... some people are unaware of tools.

06:54:47 <dauwhe> ... they start with predisposition to assume they can't use fonts.

... they start with predisposition to assume they can't use fonts.

06:55:15 <dauwhe> ... my own position has been that if you use a font, in any format that cannot easily be pulled out and reused.

... my own position has been that if you use a font, in any format that cannot easily be pulled out and reused.

06:55:48 <dauwhe> ... if you just have to do something, touch font to reuse, then that takes responsibiliy away from publisher

... if you just have to do something, touch font to reuse, then that takes responsibiliy away from publisher

06:56:01 <dauwhe> ... requires a willful act from the third party, so they are the infringer.

... requires a willful act from the third party, so they are the infringer.

06:56:12 <dauwhe> ... that infringer is in violation of IP laws.

... that infringer is in violation of IP laws.

06:56:24 <dauwhe> ... the people who do this are not likely to be our customers.

... the people who do this are not likely to be our customers.

06:56:43 <dauwhe> ... they are usually isolated acts which don't affect business in general.

... they are usually isolated acts which don't affect business in general.

06:56:56 <dauwhe> ... this is MT position, but not whole industry.

... this is MT position, but not whole industry.

06:57:06 <dauwhe> ... obfuscating is enough

... obfuscating is enough

06:57:43 <dauwhe> ... so publishers doing something like this satisfies licensing requirements

... so publishers doing something like this satisfies licensing requirements

06:57:52 <dauwhe> Ivan: is this what WOFF was for?

Ivan Herman: is this what WOFF was for?

06:58:09 <dauwhe> Vlad: we didn't want to deal with licensing when creating WOFF format.

Vladimir Levantovsky: we didn't want to deal with licensing when creating WOFF format.

06:58:42 <dauwhe_> ... satisfies many requirements. Transparent mech. for fonts in the web, can't be immediately used by other

... satisfies many requirements. Transparent mech. for fonts in the web, can't be immediately used by other

06:59:06 <dauwhe_> ... applications. No technical burden getting font out of WOFF format, but that makes infringement willful.

... applications. No technical burden getting font out of WOFF format, but that makes infringement willful.

06:59:27 <dauwhe_> Ivan: In group we've agreed that's enough

Vladimir Levantovsky: In group we've agreed that's enough

06:59:40 <dauwhe_> ... WOFF has metadata on how to aquire font license

... WOFF has metadata on how to aquire font license

06:59:54 <ivan> s/Ivan:/Vlad:/
06:59:59 <dauwhe_> ... there's a secondary mechanism to put some boundaries on what type of content can be used

... there's a secondary mechanism to put some boundaries on what type of content can be used

07:00:14 <dauwhe_> ... that access control mech. is universal

... that access control mech. is universal

07:00:41 <dauwhe_> ... if it's normal web architecture, people ask questions

... if it's normal web architecture, people ask questions

07:01:02 <dauwhe_> ... is situation the same for offline/packaged use?

... is situation the same for offline/packaged use?

07:01:08 <dauwhe_> ... most questions coming from publishers.

... most questions coming from publishers.

07:01:27 <dauwhe_> ... they are often at a loss whether they can use fonts without violating license.

... they are often at a loss whether they can use fonts without violating license.

07:01:33 <dauwhe_> ... so that's one big bucket.

... so that's one big bucket.

07:01:41 <dauwhe_> ... this is a problem of educating users.

... this is a problem of educating users.

07:01:53 <dauwhe_> mgylling: can w3c or OWP help?

Markus Gylling: can w3c or OWP help?

07:02:24 <dauwhe_> Vlad: make some document to refer to. EPUB has font obsfucation, to create strong tie between document and font resource

Vladimir Levantovsky: make some document to refer to. EPUB has font obsfucation, to create strong tie between document and font resource

07:02:35 <dauwhe_> ... web doesn't have that. OK with dynamic content

... web doesn't have that. OK with dynamic content

07:02:53 <dauwhe_> Ivan: that's not a technical issue, but a usage issue

Ivan Herman: that's not a technical issue, but a usage issue

07:03:13 <dauwhe_> mgylling: OWP platform does not create a strong tie between font and document for

Markus Gylling: OWP platform does not create a strong tie between font and document for

07:03:32 <dauwhe_> Ivan: that tie does exist. Do you want inverse?

Ivan Herman: that tie does exist. Do you want inverse?

07:03:59 <dauwhe_> Vlad: CSS gives mechanism to reference font. Doesn't say you can use that resource for ONLY that doc.

Vladimir Levantovsky: CSS gives mechanism to reference font. Doesn't say you can use that resource for ONLY that doc.

07:04:25 <dauwhe_> ... EPUB uses CSS declaration, but you also have font obsfucation that modifies font header with doc-specific key

... EPUB uses CSS declaration, but you also have font obsfucation that modifies font header with doc-specific key

07:04:38 <dauwhe_> ... so if you pull that font out of one epub and move to another it won't work.

... so if you pull that font out of one epub and move to another it won't work.

07:04:53 <dauwhe_> ... that mechanism isn't clear to lots of publishers.

... that mechanism isn't clear to lots of publishers.

07:05:13 <dauwhe_> ... that removes you from license violation.

... that removes you from license violation.

07:05:27 <dauwhe_> ... WOFF doesn't modify font.

... WOFF doesn't modify font.

07:05:38 <dauwhe_> ... is useable everywhere.

... is useable everywhere.

07:05:53 <dauwhe_> ... but WOFF gives you metadata saying font was licensed to publisher Y

... but WOFF gives you metadata saying font was licensed to publisher Y

07:06:08 <dauwhe_> ... at least it gives enough information for anyone to use that font legally.

... at least it gives enough information for anyone to use that font legally.

07:06:24 <dauwhe_> ... also provides enough information to prevent anyone from claiming ignorance.

... also provides enough information to prevent anyone from claiming ignorance.

07:06:42 <dauwhe_> ... tryed to prevent unwilling infringement.

... tryed to prevent unwilling infringement.

07:07:11 <dauwhe_> ... example: TTF font on server, can easily download, could claim you didn't know that was illegal.

... example: TTF font on server, can easily download, could claim you didn't know that was illegal.

07:07:17 <dauwhe_> ... WOFF is different.

... WOFF is different.

07:07:33 <dauwhe_> ... can't claim you're innocent bystander.

... can't claim you're innocent bystander.

07:07:45 <dauwhe_> Ivan: that mechanism exists today, the WOFF metadata

Ivan Herman: that mechanism exists today, the WOFF metadata

07:07:51 <dauwhe_> ... what is missing?

... what is missing?

07:08:22 <dauwhe_> Vlad: Monotype says that WOFF file is embedded in digital publishing resource, portable offline document, that's good enough for me.

Vladimir Levantovsky: Monotype says that WOFF file is embedded in digital publishing resource, portable offline document, that's good enough for me.

07:08:38 <dauwhe_> ... but people/publishers don't think that's the case, are afraid of becoming liable.

... but people/publishers don't think that's the case, are afraid of becoming liable.

07:08:50 <dauwhe_> mgylling: OWP does not need a font obsfucation mechanism.

Markus Gylling: OWP does not need a font obsfucation mechanism.

07:09:02 <dauwhe_> Vlad: we need more people be aware of issue.

Vladimir Levantovsky: we need more people be aware of issue.

07:09:19 <dauwhe_> ... so we can agree embedding WOFF resource is OK. Is good enough.

... so we can agree embedding WOFF resource is OK. Is good enough.

07:09:48 <dauwhe_> gcapiel: is there a machine-readable way to know if license is OK?

Gerardo Capiel: is there a machine-readable way to know if license is OK?

07:10:42 <dauwhe_> brady_duga: WOFF is restricted by origin? I'm confused about--if I figure out how to reference the same file from the original origin

Brady Duga: WOFF is restricted by origin? I'm confused about--if I figure out how to reference the same file from the original origin

07:10:56 <dauwhe_> ... if I sell that book is that a problem? Origin is the same.

... if I sell that book is that a problem? Origin is the same.

07:11:08 <dauwhe_> Vlad: issue of origin is non-issue with offline content.

Vladimir Levantovsky: issue of origin is non-issue with offline content.

07:11:22 <dauwhe_> ... once file is offline, http doesn't apply.

... once file is offline, http doesn't apply.

07:11:36 <dauwhe_> ... don't see how that mech. can work for offline.

... don't see how that mech. can work for offline.

07:12:21 <dauwhe_> Ivan: from IG point of view, this is a non-issue.

Ivan Herman: from IG point of view, this is a non-issue.

07:12:27 <dauwhe_> Vlad: I agree.

Vladimir Levantovsky: I agree.

07:12:42 <dauwhe_> ... users need clear guidance.

... users need clear guidance.

07:12:55 <dauwhe_> Ivan: IDPF developed technology.

Ivan Herman: IDPF developed technology.

07:13:49 <dauwhe_> ... IPDF should make it clear that obsfucation is not necessary for WOFF in EPUB

... IPDF should make it clear that obsfucation is not necessary for WOFF in EPUB

07:14:02 <dauwhe_> brady_duga: is this harmful?

Brady Duga: is this harmful?

07:14:28 <dauwhe_> Ivan: from IG perspective it's not an issue.

Ivan Herman: from IG perspective it's not an issue.

07:14:37 <dauwhe_> brady_duga: you're right.

Brady Duga: you're right.

07:14:46 <dauwhe_> mgylling: not seeing new requirements here.

Markus Gylling: not seeing new requirements here.

07:15:15 <dauwhe_> ... IDPF says that foundries need to communicate better with customers to clarify offline usage rights.

... IDPF says that foundries need to communicate better with customers to clarify offline usage rights.

07:15:21 <dauwhe_> ... are we misunderstanding?

... are we misunderstanding?

07:15:35 <dauwhe_> Vlad: Monotype doesn't see an issue here.

Vladimir Levantovsky: Monotype doesn't see an issue here.

07:15:42 <dauwhe_> ... question is asked multiple times.

... question is asked multiple times.

07:15:48 <dauwhe_> ... not explained anywhere.

... not explained anywhere.

07:15:53 <dauwhe_> ... is it our job to explain?

... is it our job to explain?

07:16:01 <dauwhe_> ... do we need overveiw to reference?

... do we need overview to reference?

07:16:11 <dauwhe_> s/overveiw/overview/
07:16:28 <dauwhe_> Ivan: if I look at the IG charter:

Ivan Herman: if I look at the IG charter:

07:16:56 <dauwhe> ... these are W3C technologys important to publishing industry

... these are W3C technologys important to publishing industry

07:17:02 <brady_duga> s/blackmail/market pressures/
07:17:17 <dauwhe> Vlad: when we talk about digital publishing technologies are we online or offline

Vladimir Levantovsky: when we talk about digital publishing technologies are we online or offline

07:17:30 <dauwhe> mgylling: scope of this group is the future.

Markus Gylling: scope of this group is the future.

07:17:43 <dauwhe> ... cover needs of digital publishing both online and offline

... cover needs of digital publishing both online and offline

07:18:18 <dauwhe> Vlad: confusing part is diff. between EPUB w/ two types of font resource and obsfucation can work, but online only WOFF works

Vladimir Levantovsky: confusing part is diff. between EPUB w/ two types of font resource and obsfucation can work, but online only WOFF works

07:18:33 <dauwhe> ... needs to be better explained

... needs to be better explained

07:18:49 <dauwhe> mgylling: have OWP support obsfucation of non-WOFF fonts.

Markus Gylling: have OWP support obsfucation of non-WOFF fonts.

07:18:54 <dauwhe> Vlad: if we agree to that, yes.

Vladimir Levantovsky: if we agree to that, yes.

07:19:08 <dauwhe> ... other choice is to only use WOFF

... other choice is to only use WOFF

07:19:15 <dauwhe> mgylling: what are the stats?

Markus Gylling: what are the stats?

07:19:28 <dauwhe> Vlad: on web, nearly everything is WOFF.

Vladimir Levantovsky: on web, nearly everything is WOFF.

07:19:47 <dauwhe> ... we serve WOFF to every user agent that supports WOFF.

... we serve WOFF to every user agent that supports WOFF.

07:20:39 <dauwhe> Vlad: next issue; not only about spec, but about what implementions actually do

Vladimir Levantovsky: next issue; not only about spec, but about what implementions actually do

07:20:52 <dauwhe> ... in EPUB2, many implementations had optional obsfucation

... in EPUB2, many implementations had optional obsfucation

07:21:01 <dauwhe> ... not all RS implement.

... not all RS implement.

07:21:18 <dauwhe> ... that's a problem.

... that's a problem.

07:21:39 <dauwhe> mgylling: coffee break.

Markus Gylling: coffee break.

08:02:27 <dauwhe> mgylling: to summarize prev. session, the first of the two "Vladimir Buckets"

Markus Gylling: to summarize prev. session, the first of the two "Vladimir Buckets"

08:02:40 <dauwhe> ... no obvious requirements on OWP regarding rights expressions on fonts

... no obvious requirements on OWP regarding rights expressions on fonts

08:03:05 <dauwhe> ... generalizing from Vlad's position, WOFF features are enough for both online and offline use

... generalizing from Vlad's position, WOFF features are enough for both online and offline use

08:03:20 <dauwhe> ... no equivalent metadata expression

... no equivalent metadata expression

08:03:34 <dauwhe> Vlad: explicitly express restrictions

Vladimir Levantovsky: explicitly express restrictions

08:03:53 <dauwhe> mgylling: not a W3C issue, more an issue of Foundries and IDPF being more clear on distinctions.

Markus Gylling: not a W3C issue, more an issue of Foundries and IDPF being more clear on distinctions.

08:05:27 <dauwhe> Vlad: can we document that WOFF is required technology that is relevant to Digital Publishing (as part of charter)

Vladimir Levantovsky: can we document that WOFF is required technology that is relevant to Digital Publishing (as part of charter)

08:06:11 <dauwhe> RESOLVED: DPUB will add WOFF to list of required technologies for Digital Publishing.

RESOLUTION: DPUB will add WOFF to list of required technologies for Digital Publishing.

08:06:32 <dauwhe> Vlad: complaining about typography being not as good as print

Vladimir Levantovsky: complaining about typography being not as good as print

08:06:38 <dauwhe> ... different tools and processes.

... different tools and processes.

08:06:52 <dauwhe> ... they have full control of content that is printed

... they have full control of content that is printed

08:07:07 <dauwhe> ... reproduction part of digital pubishing is delegated to unknown user agent

... reproduction part of digital pubishing is delegated to unknown user agent

08:07:21 <dauwhe> ... so publishers have little control of final result

... so publishers have little control of final result

08:07:37 <dauwhe> ... don't know what typographic features will be there

... don't know what typographic features will be there

08:07:52 <dauwhe> ... there are many checkpoints between digital content and final presentation of that content

... there are many checkpoints between digital content and final presentation of that content

08:08:02 <dauwhe> ... until recently CSS Fonts was fluid document

... until recently CSS Fonts was fluid document

08:08:14 <dauwhe> ... implementation a year ago is now different

... implementation a year ago is now different

08:08:24 <dauwhe> ... is now CR

... is now CR

08:08:40 <dauwhe> ... even though we now have spec, we don't necessarily have implementaions

... even though we now have spec, we don't necessarily have implementaions

08:08:52 <dauwhe> ... how can interest group facilitate uptake of spec

... how can interest group facilitate uptake of spec

08:09:07 <dauwhe> ... do we need stronger set of requirements that it must be supported.

... do we need stronger set of requirements that it must be supported.

08:09:28 <dauwhe> Ivan: example?

Ivan Herman: example?

08:09:36 <dauwhe> Vlad: scientific publications

Vladimir Levantovsky: scientific publications

08:09:41 <dauwhe> ... not talking about math

... not talking about math

08:09:54 <dauwhe> ... have text flowing around objects with formulas, etc.

... have text flowing around objects with formulas, etc.

08:10:16 <dauwhe> ... or don't have control over kerning or vertical positioning

... or don't have control over kerning or vertical positioning

08:10:25 <dauwhe> ... combine chinese and english in one sentence

... combine chinese and english in one sentence

08:10:41 <dauwhe> Ivan: the kind of question I was asking on half-space around punctuation

Ivan Herman: the kind of question I was asking on half-space around punctuation

08:10:54 <dauwhe> ... each feature in isolation has a small impact

... each feature in isolation has a small impact

08:11:10 <dauwhe> ... but the aggregate distinguishes good typography from bad

... but the aggregate distinguishes good typography from bad

08:11:42 <dauwhe> koji: but these things aren't about fonts

Koji Ishii: but these things aren't about fonts

08:11:52 <dauwhe> Ivan: typography has lots of parts

Vladimir Levantovsky: typography has lots of parts

08:11:57 <dauwhe> s/Ivan/Vlad/
08:12:29 <dauwhe> Vlad: year ago, CSS3 font features... demo from then doesn't work now

Vladimir Levantovsky: year ago, CSS3 font features... demo from then doesn't work now

08:12:58 <dauwhe> astearns: question about things aren't up to snuff on web platform. One of them was kerning. Letter positoin in general?

Alan Stearns: question about things aren't up to snuff on web platform. One of them was kerning. Letter position in general?

08:13:05 <dauwhe> ... or adding kerning table to document

... or adding kerning table to document

08:13:16 <dauwhe> Vlad: not kerning table, talking about info in font

Vladimir Levantovsky: not kerning table, talking about info in font

08:13:25 <dauwhe> astearns: so it's the font data itself.

Alan Stearns: so it's the font data itself.

08:13:44 <dauwhe> Vlad: sometimes that information is not presented in the font. Sometimes it is in font but not used by reading system.

Vladimir Levantovsky: sometimes that information is not presented in the font. Sometimes it is in font but not used by reading system.

08:13:53 <dauwhe> ... people see end result, but don't see where issue is.

... people see end result, but don't see where issue is.

08:14:04 <dauwhe> s/positoin/position/
08:14:13 <dauwhe> ... people just see that it's wrong

... people just see that it's wrong

08:14:29 <dauwhe> ... important small things.

... important small things.

08:14:56 <dauwhe> astearns: requireing browsers to use kern data in the font is something that would go in CSS3 text

Alan Stearns: requireing browsers to use kern data in the font is something that would go in CSS3 text

08:15:08 <dauwhe> ... if browsers are not doing enough, that's what we need to lock down in CSS spec.

... if browsers are not doing enough, that's what we need to lock down in CSS spec.

08:15:30 <dauwhe> Vlad: I was talking about capturing high-level requirements to then translate into CSS

Vladimir Levantovsky: I was talking about capturing high-level requirements to then translate into CSS

08:15:40 <dauwhe> koji: Are you talking feature stablilty?

Koji Ishii: Are you talking feature stablilty?

08:16:09 <dauwhe> Vlad: one issue is lack of support for already-specified features

Vladimir Levantovsky: one issue is lack of support for already-specified features

08:16:30 <dauwhe> Ivan: try to collect both pagination features and typographic features

Ivan Herman: try to collect both pagination features and typographic features

08:16:56 <dauwhe> ... it's more work

... it's more work

08:17:01 <dauwhe> Vlad: I'm the messenger

Vladimir Levantovsky: I'm the messenger

08:17:14 <dauwhe> ... I collect these from companies like Dave's

... I collect these from companies like Dave's

08:17:26 <dauwhe> ... these are people who struggle to control fine details of presentation

... these are people who struggle to control fine details of presentation

08:17:47 <dauwhe> mgylling: parts is implemenation problem. Are there also specification issues?

Markus Gylling: parts is implemenation problem. Are there also specification issues?

08:17:55 <dauwhe> astearns: yes, there are spec issues.

Alan Stearns: yes, there are spec issues.

08:18:36 <dauwhe> ... control over glyph position in line box is insufficiently specified for publisher requirements.

... control over glyph position in line box is insufficiently specified for publisher requirements.

08:18:45 <dauwhe> ... line grids

... line grids

08:19:50 <dauwhe> dauwhe: control over justification parameters

Dave Cramer: control over justification parameters

08:19:58 <dauwhe> Ivan: some stuff may be pushed to CSS 4

Ivan Herman: some stuff may be pushed to CSS 4

08:20:13 <dauwhe> astearns: CSS decided to punt on justification ranges, it's future work.

Alan Stearns: CSS decided to punt on justification ranges, it's future work.

08:20:38 <dauwhe> r12a: there are specific things we need to address, but there are things in css already that are not being implemented.

Richard Ishida: there are specific things we need to address, but there are things in css already that are not being implemented.

08:20:46 <dauwhe> ... so we need to talk to implementers.

... so we need to talk to implementers.

08:20:59 <dauwhe> Ivan: yes. we need test suite to help developers

Vladimir Levantovsky: yes. we need test suite to help developers

08:21:06 <dauwhe> s/Ivan/Vlad/
08:21:23 <dauwhe> Vlad: by zeroing down on specific issues we may lose bigger picture

Vladimir Levantovsky: by zeroing down on specific issues we may lose bigger picture

08:21:39 <dauwhe> ... we may not be ready to drill down at individual spec level

... we may not be ready to drill down at individual spec level

08:21:56 <dauwhe> ... we need higher level conversation first, not dive directly to glyph positioning

... we need higher level conversation first, not dive directly to glyph positioning

08:22:17 <dauwhe> ... CSS3 fonts defines support for font features.

... CSS3 fonts defines support for font features.

08:22:31 <dauwhe> ... to support font features you need implementations supporting that part of spec

... to support font features you need implementations supporting that part of spec

08:22:43 <dauwhe> ... and you need to enable authors to discover the same features.

... and you need to enable authors to discover the same features.

08:22:59 <dauwhe> ... a whole another issue.

... a whole another issue.

08:23:07 <dauwhe> ... tools need to expose these features

... tools need to expose these features

08:25:01 <dauwhe> Vlad: there's a set of tools developed by Monotype; tool will tell you what font features are available

Vladimir Levantovsky: there's a set of tools developed by Monotype; tool will tell you what font features are available

08:25:19 <dauwhe> ... if characters are CT, some fonts will have a swash for these, some won't.

... if characters are CT, some fonts will have a swash for these, some won't.

08:25:26 <dauwhe> ... discovery tools are needed.

... discovery tools are needed.

08:25:54 <dauwhe> mgylling: not obvious yes or no for us to develop requirements for authoring tools

Markus Gylling: not obvious yes or no for us to develop requirements for authoring tools

08:26:00 <dauwhe> ... this opens a can of worms.

... this opens a can of worms.

08:26:10 <dauwhe> Ivan: let's try to keep to what we agreed to do

Ivan Herman: let's try to keep to what we agreed to do

08:26:20 <dauwhe> ... authoring tool world becomes a nightmare

... authoring tool world becomes a nightmare

08:26:45 <dauwhe> dsinger: will this put into the CSS the fact that I want "CT" replaced with ligature

David Singer: will this put into the CSS the fact that I want "CT" replaced with ligature

08:27:06 <dauwhe> ... finding what fonts do is not a problem for this group

... finding what fonts do is not a problem for this group

08:28:07 <dauwhe> astearns: CSS font spec allows us to turn on substitution for particular element,

Alan Stearns: CSS font spec allows us to turn on substitution for particular element,

08:28:14 <dauwhe> ... this span with those two characters.

... this span with those two characters.

08:28:21 <dauwhe> ... can do character by character

... can do character by character

08:28:44 <dauwhe> ... if you get to fallback font that doesn't support the feature, that turning on of feature does nothing.

... if you get to fallback font that doesn't support the feature, that turning on of feature does nothing.

08:28:58 <dauwhe> r12a: that's an example of what Vlad was talking about.

Richard Ishida: that's an example of what Vlad was talking about.

08:29:24 <dauwhe> Vlad: the bigger issue is that we want to reduce the difference between creation and rendering.

Vladimir Levantovsky: the bigger issue is that we want to reduce the difference between creation and rendering.

08:29:30 <dauwhe> ... sometimes implementation problem

... sometimes implementation problem

08:29:36 <dauwhe> ... sometimes resource get subsituted.

... sometimes resource get subsituted.

08:29:51 <dauwhe> ... sometimes can't reuse print process for digital

... sometimes can't reuse print process for digital

08:29:57 <dauwhe> ... trying to bring bigger scope

... trying to bring bigger scope

08:30:08 <dauwhe> mgylling: to enable faithful representation down the line

Markus Gylling: to enable faithful representation down the line

08:30:22 <dauwhe> ... we need to break down to concrete atomic problems

... we need to break down to concrete atomic problems

08:30:32 <dauwhe> Vlad: one bucket is discovery of font features

Vladimir Levantovsky: one bucket is discovery of font features

08:30:36 <dauwhe> ... don't know if in scope

... don't know if in scope

08:30:52 <dauwhe> mgylling: authoring tool feature requirements is out of scope

Markus Gylling: authoring tool feature requirements is out of scope

08:31:24 <dauwhe> astearns: there are stages involved.

Alan Stearns: there are stages involved.

08:31:33 <dauwhe> ... gathering requirements

... gathering requirements

08:31:38 <dauwhe> ... then turn to features

... then turn to features

08:31:50 <dauwhe> ... then see if those features can be exposed to tools

... then see if those features can be exposed to tools

08:32:04 <dauwhe> mgylling: how to translate easy to discover font features

Markus Gylling: how to translate easy to discover font features

08:32:23 <dauwhe> astearns: we have a step where we consider tooling 'cause one chair writes tools

Alan Stearns: we have a step where we consider tooling 'cause one chair writes tools

08:32:34 <dauwhe> ... the font feature that exposes OT features is not tool-friendly

... the font feature that exposes OT features is not tool-friendly

08:32:40 <dauwhe> ... but even less author friendly

... but even less author friendly

08:32:51 <dauwhe> ... tools will expose eventually, and authors will use tools

... tools will expose eventually, and authors will use tools

08:33:02 <dauwhe> ... because feature is too obstruse for normal authors

... because feature is too obstruse for normal authors

08:33:25 <dauwhe> mgylling: to translate to requirement for OWP

Markus Gylling: to translate to requirement for OWP

08:33:35 <dauwhe> ... fonts have mechanism where fonts declare their available features

... fonts have mechanism where fonts declare their available features

08:33:45 <dauwhe> ... and make it easy for tool providers

... and make it easy for tool providers

08:33:57 <dauwhe> koji: for CSS fonts case

Koji Ishii: for CSS fonts case

08:34:08 <dauwhe> ... matter of timing

... matter of timing

08:34:13 <dauwhe> ... css fonts is WD

... css fonts is WD

08:34:19 <dauwhe> ... not implemented in browser

... not implemented in browser

08:34:27 <dauwhe> ... spec was unstable, unsupported

... spec was unstable, unsupported

08:34:46 <dauwhe> ... once CR PR then more likely browser suppported and then tool supported

... once CR PR then more likely browser suppported and then tool supported

08:35:05 <dauwhe> ... using features after PR solves most issues

... using features after PR solves most issues

08:35:25 <dauwhe> ... help specs move faster to rec track

... help specs move faster to rec track

08:35:38 <dauwhe> astearns: that timing issue will factor in to the toolability of this particular feature

Alan Stearns: that timing issue will factor in to the toolability of this particular feature

08:35:48 <dauwhe> ... web platform doesn't have restrospection yet

... web platform doesn't have introspection into features available for a particular font yet

08:36:27 <dauwhe> mgylling: what other features are needed?

Markus Gylling: what other features are needed?

08:36:34 <dauwhe> ... what have you heard, VLad?

... what have you heard, VLad?

08:36:45 <astearns> s/restrospection/introspection into features available for a particular font/
08:36:52 <dauwhe> gcapiel: let's check in with MathJax folks

Gerardo Capiel: let's check in with MathJax folks

08:37:08 <dauwhe> Vlad: missing technology on font side for math support

Vladimir Levantovsky: missing technology on font side for math support

08:37:27 <dauwhe> ... ISO has published a proposal for math layout technology

... ISO has published a proposal for math layout technology

08:38:28 <ivan> Guest: Richard (r12a) Ishida, W3C
08:38:57 <r12a> scribenick: r12a

(Scribe set to Richard Ishida)

08:39:03 <r12a> dave: we want concrete imperatives, atomic?

Dave Cramer: we want concrete imperatives, atomic?

08:40:18 <astearns> dave mentions justification and line breaking controls, composing fractions

Alan Stearns: dave mentions justification and line breaking controls, composing fractions

08:40:27 <r12a> ... hanging punctuation, fractions (font typography related) - in the old days we made a fraction font, it was so important

... hanging punctuation, fractions (font typography related) - in the old days we made a fraction font, it was so important

08:40:43 <r12a> ... kerning pair editing

... kerning pair editing

08:41:09 <r12a> ... sometimes we put spans around two letters with special spacing

... sometimes we put spans around two letters with special spacing

08:42:00 <r12a> ... typically manually editng the html - eg. with drop caps, and maybe 4-5 different types of spacing

... typically manually editng the html - eg. with drop caps, and maybe 4-5 different types of spacing

08:42:25 <r12a> ivan: sounds frightening

Ivan Herman: sounds frightening

08:42:43 <r12a> dave: but thats what needs to be done

Dave Cramer: but thats what needs to be done

08:43:03 <r12a> koji: format like epub, most publishers allow user to change font...

Koji Ishii: format like epub, most publishers allow user to change font...

08:43:37 <r12a> vlad: i don't dave is advocating to do the way previously done - its just an example of how much work goes into miniscule adjustments

Vladimir Levantovsky: i don't dave is advocating to do the way previously done - its just an example of how much work goes into miniscule adjustments

08:43:58 <r12a> koji: is the goal of this document to describe what was done in printing or what we want

Koji Ishii: is the goal of this document to describe what was done in printing or what we want

08:44:09 <r12a> dave: describe best practices

Dave Cramer: describe best practices

08:44:25 <r12a> astearns: good sense to describe current practise whether or not

Alan Stearns: good sense to describe current practise whether or not

08:44:59 <r12a> vlad: don't want digital publishing to be a poor relative of printing

Vladimir Levantovsky: don't want digital publishing to be a poor relative of printing

08:45:14 <r12a> dave: especially with the exquisite fonts that are now produced

Dave Cramer: especially with the exquisite fonts that are now produced

08:45:57 <r12a> brady: careful work for drop caps with hand adjustment fails when the user changes font

Brady Duga: careful work for drop caps with hand adjustment fails when the user changes font

08:46:48 <r12a> koji: group needs a list of requirements for other groups

Koji Ishii: group needs a list of requirements for other groups

08:47:04 <r12a> ... in the middle we have another list of what we want in digital publishing

... in the middle we have another list of what we want in digital publishing

08:47:36 <r12a> dave: requirement that drop caps don't clash should be solved

Dave Cramer: requirement that drop caps don't clash should be solved

08:48:26 <r12a> ... it doesn't work well in browsers now, but it should

... it doesn't work well in browsers now, but it should

08:48:37 <r12a> markus: where do we document these?

Markus Gylling: where do we document these?

08:48:59 <r12a> ivan: who will do the work? may be too much to ask dave to write it

Ivan Herman: who will do the work? may be too much to ask dave to write it

08:49:10 <r12a> ... could someone else help create the content

... could someone else help create the content

08:50:02 <r12a> markus: kerning etc do not need the tutorial stuff around them, so we may be able to put these requirements on the wiki directly

Markus Gylling: kerning etc do not need the tutorial stuff around them, so we may be able to put these requirements on the wiki directly

08:50:35 <r12a> vlad: we need to collect these requirements from various publishers - they will have slightly different requirements

Vladimir Levantovsky: we need to collect these requirements from various publishers - they will have slightly different requirements

08:50:52 <r12a> markus: vlad would you be willing to collect these things on the wiki

Markus Gylling: vlad would you be willing to collect these things on the wiki

08:51:01 <r12a> vlad: i'm not sure I can do this

Vladimir Levantovsky: i'm not sure I can do this

08:51:54 <r12a> ... i hear of the problems, but i don't work with them

... i hear of the problems, but i don't work with them

08:52:44 <r12a> dave: we need to snag someone from the community who are trying to solve these problems in the comp houses

Dave Cramer: we need to snag someone from the community who are trying to solve these problems in the comp houses

08:53:26 <r12a> ... we don't have many such w3c members

... we don't have many such w3c members

08:53:32 <r12a> ivan: we're working on that

Ivan Herman: we're working on that

08:54:20 <r12a> koji: i'm working on a spreadsheet in japan and asking publishers to fill in issues - 40% author issues, 30% implementation, 10% css

Koji Ishii: i'm working on a spreadsheet in japan and asking publishers to fill in issues - 40% author issues, 30% implementation, 10% css

08:54:42 <r12a> vlad: any other publishers?

Vladimir Levantovsky: any other publishers?

08:54:53 <r12a> pearson

pearson

08:55:18 <r12a> vlad: even educational book publishers

Vladimir Levantovsky: even educational book publishers

08:56:08 <r12a> markus: there are two things, we all know we need experts, but someone also needs to coordinate the work

Markus Gylling: there are two things, we all know we need experts, but someone also needs to coordinate the work

08:56:23 <r12a> ... would you be willing to collect and describe (rather than be the expert)

... would you be willing to collect and describe (rather than be the expert)

08:56:29 <r12a> vlad: i'll try

Vladimir Levantovsky: i'll try

08:56:46 <r12a> markus: so you'll be the hub and get things moving

Markus Gylling: so you'll be the hub and get things moving

08:57:03 <r12a> ivan: on the long term i think this may become a separate document

Ivan Herman: on the long term i think this may become a separate document

08:57:16 <r12a> markus: eventually nothing will remain a wiki page

Markus Gylling: eventually nothing will remain a wiki page

08:58:04 <r12a> r12a: don't forget jlreq

Richard Ishida: don't forget jlreq

08:58:40 <r12a> dave: i'm concerned that it might be hard to disentangle things - typography affects page layout

Dave Cramer: i'm concerned that it might be hard to disentangle things - typography affects page layout

Vladimir Levantovsky: agrees to be coordinator to collect and marshall these requirements - try to bring in people from Aptara and Jouve to supply expertise
09:00:33 <r12a> vlad: can we get input from people outside the w3c

Vladimir Levantovsky: can we get input from people outside the w3c

09:00:37 <r12a> answer yes

09:01:02 <r12a> vlad: success depends on input - we shouldn't limit to members

Vladimir Levantovsky: success depends on input - we shouldn't limit to members

09:01:49 <r12a> walkley: i chair Uk digital publishing association so i can get them involved

George Walkley: i chair Uk digital publishing association so i can get them involved

09:02:00 <r12a> ivan mentions others

ivan mentions others

09:04:14 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

09:04:14 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is

09:04:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see koji, gcapiel, ddahl, walkley, liam, Sharad, frank, taocai, bobby, dsinger, dauwhe, Vlad, Zakim, ivan, r12a, kawabata2, brady_duga, mgylling, tmichel__, benjaminsko,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see koji, gcapiel, ddahl, walkley, liam, Sharad, frank, taocai, bobby, dsinger, dauwhe, Vlad, Zakim, ivan, r12a, kawabata2, brady_duga, mgylling, tmichel__, benjaminsko,

09:04:16 <Zakim> ... manu, _nikos_office, RRSAgent, astearns, trackbot, plinss

Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu, _nikos_office, RRSAgent, astearns, trackbot, plinss

09:04:20 <r12a> ADJOURNED for today

09:04:23 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:04:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-dpub-minutes.html ivan
09:04:37 <r12a> meet for restaurant at 6pm in lobby