14:25:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:25:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/20-mobile-a11y-irc
14:25:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 328
14:25:30 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:25:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:25:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:25:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:25:33 <trackbot> Date: 20 December 2013
14:27:00 <KimPatch> zakim, this is 6283
14:27:00 <Zakim> KimPatch, I see WAI_MATF()10:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be 6283".
14:27:43 <KimPatch> zakim, this will be 6283
14:27:43 <Zakim> ok, KimPatch; I see WAI_MATF()10:00AM scheduled to start in 33 minutes
14:28:02 <KimPatch> agenda+ Mobile Resources and list of mobile assistive technologies
14:28:10 <KimPatch> agenda+ Mobile Challenges
14:30:19 <KimPatch> agenda+ Taskforce Deliverables
14:30:35 <KimPatch> agenda+ Using Trackbot for Action Tracking – Jeanne
14:30:54 <KimPatch> agenda+ Next Steps – next meeting will be Friday January 10
14:31:13 <KimPatch> agenda?
14:34:00 <KimPatch> chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
14:34:13 <KimPatch> agenda:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2013Dec/0002.html
14:48:06 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
14:55:00 <Zakim> WAI_MATF()10:00AM has now started
14:55:07 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
14:56:16 <Zakim> +jeanne
14:56:29 <Alan_> Alan_ has joined #mobile-a11y
14:56:53 <Alan_> connection was dropped
14:57:27 <jeanne> agenda?
14:57:28 <agarrison> agarrison has joined #mobile-a11y
14:58:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:58:46 <agarrison> zakim, ipcaller is alistair
14:58:46 <Zakim> +alistair; got it
15:00:20 <Zakim> +Kathleen_Anderson
15:00:29 <Kathleen> Kathleen has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:00 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:03:28 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
15:04:04 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
15:04:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kim_Patch, jeanne, alistair, Kathleen_Anderson, Kathy_Wahlbin
15:04:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see Kathy, Kathleen, agarrison, Alan_, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, KimPatch, MichaelC, trackbot
15:05:14 <Jan_> Jan_ has joined #mobile-a11y
15:05:41 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
15:05:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:08 <Jan_> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
15:06:08 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
15:06:24 <Zakim> + +1.704.877.aaaa
15:07:40 <KimPatch> take up next
15:07:57 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 1
15:07:57 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Mobile Resources and list of mobile assistive technologies" taken up [from KimPatch]
15:08:07 <jeanne> zakim, aaaa is Alan
15:08:07 <Zakim> +Alan; got it
15:08:19 <KimPatch> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page
15:08:50 <jeanne> KW: We have a lot of resources identified on the wiki. It is great to see such a great collection of resources.
15:09:07 <Alan_> I think I have all my resources added.
15:09:09 <jeanne> ... does anyone have more resources to add?
15:09:16 <jeanne> Jeanne has more to add
15:09:37 <jeanne> JR: I added some this morning. I noticed that there are a lot of duplicates
15:09:46 <jeanne> KP: I'll remove the duplicates
15:10:08 <jeanne> KW: I have had a lot of people ask if this resource list will be available to the public.
15:10:23 <jeanne> ... the wiki is public, so anyone who knows the URI can read it
15:10:51 <jeanne> ... one idea is to turn this list into a web page that could be a deliverable under this task force.
15:11:14 <jeanne> ... what else do we need to do to this list to make it a valuable resource
15:11:41 <KimPatch> Action: Kim to remove duplicates on Mobile Resources page
15:11:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Remove duplicates on mobile resources page [on Kimberly Patch - due 2013-12-27].
15:11:58 <jeanne> JR: This is a good list today, but over time there will be link-rot and it will become less valuable. Maybe we don't have to declare it as a deliverable and then not have the weight
15:13:23 <jeanne> Alan: There may be copyright issues from the W3C perspective?
15:13:52 <agarrison> q+
15:14:13 <jeanne> JS: We can link to anything without copyright issues, but we may want to make sure that we want to link to it,  because it will seem to people like an endorsement.
15:14:38 <agarrison> q-
15:15:13 <jeanne> Alastair: There may be vendor issues. It needs to be well rounded
15:15:32 <jeanne> ... check with the vendors to see if they have resources that they would want to include.
15:15:50 <jeanne> JR:  I think there will be equal amounts of iOS and Android platform support.
15:16:35 <KimPatch> zakim, close item 1
15:16:35 <Zakim> agendum 1, Mobile Resources and list of mobile assistive technologies, closed
15:16:37 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:16:37 <Zakim> 2. Mobile Challenges [from KimPatch]
15:16:39 <jeanne> KW:  Please go through the list of resources and be familiar with the information that is out there.  We will be leveraging them
15:16:52 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
15:16:52 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Mobile Challenges" taken up [from KimPatch]
15:17:26 <jeanne> KW: We started talking about the needs in the industry for mobile accessibility.  This will tie into the deliverables to identify the holes that need to be filled.
15:17:41 <Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Mobile_Accessibility_Challenges
15:17:41 <jeanne> ... we last talked about challenges and had people put info in the wiki
15:18:33 <jeanne> ... read through that list and see what other missing information needs to be there for mobile applications and mobile web sites in an accessible way.
15:19:38 <agarrison> q+
15:21:15 <Alan_> going to drop call and redail in with another phone.
15:21:16 <jeanne> JS: I think we should make a list of 3rd party coding tools available so that we can start doing outreach to those companies
15:21:28 <jeanne> KW: I have some contacts and I will add them to the wikis
15:22:03 <Zakim> +Alan_Smith
15:22:23 <jeanne> Alastair: Development for separate platform, and identification of what the features of the different mobile platform are, so people can make good choices.
15:22:44 <jeanne> KW:  Do you choose the website or the application, is also a decision.
15:23:47 <agarrison> q-
15:23:49 <jeanne> Alastair: Chromephone is being developed to also run on windows, which I htink is a precursor to enabling it to run on multiple platforms
15:24:44 <jeanne> JR: It may be there under OS issues.  A lot of accessibility features are built into the platform itself.  And sometimes they are in browser.  Pinch zoom for example could be in the browser, or can be at the platform level.
15:24:51 <Zakim> -Alan_Smith
15:25:09 <Zakim> -Alan
15:25:12 <jeanne> ... if black on white reverse is set in both the browser and the platform, it can cancel each other out.
15:25:16 <agarrison> Correction to Alistair line above: Chrome apps are being positioned to run on windows, and most probably Chromephone or Chrometab...
15:25:38 <jeanne> ... the browsers may want to implement things ahead. When do you remove a feature that has been put into the OS?
15:25:40 <Zakim> +Alan_Smith
15:25:47 <jeanne> ... it's another area of challenge
15:25:54 <jeanne> KP: It's feature conflict.
15:27:47 <agarrison> q+
15:28:11 <jeanne> Alan: We have the experience of 3rd party suppliers that make our apps. The web pages are good, but the mobile apps are terrible. The 3rd party suppliers say that there are no standards for mobile, so they feel that WCAG doesn't apply to mobile devices, and therefore they don't have to do it.
15:28:21 <jeanne> ... the developers don't have guidelines to code
15:28:31 <jeanne> ... we are trying to develop it internally.
15:28:53 <jeanne> ... if they do a custom popup, is it supposed to read every item, or read the first item and stop?
15:29:38 <jeanne> ... if they use 3rd party development tools that create apps across multiple platforms, they don't support accessiblity features.
15:29:57 <jeanne> KW: Do you have a list of 3rd part development tools?
15:30:16 <jeanne> Alan: I can make a list.
15:31:08 <jeanne> Alastair: Lack of call from disability groups for mobile apps to be made accessible. That lack of call from the market, makes vendors think there is no need.
15:31:42 <jeanne> ... we should ask disability groups to give input into this task force
15:32:04 <jeanne> ... there are a lot of tech people who assess things.  Perhaps @@ would be interested in getting involved.
15:32:14 <jeanne> ... they don't seem to be driving the market.
15:32:48 <jeanne> KW: I think we have seen a big increase in the number of companies paying attention to websites, but mobile accessibility doesn't seem to be there.
15:32:58 <jeanne> ... there are a few in the US that have included mobile.
15:33:16 <jeanne> ... there isn't a lot of data on mobile use on people with disabilities.
15:33:32 <jeanne> ... the groups could put more information on the use of mobile by PWD.
15:33:37 <agarrison> q-
15:34:53 <jeanne> JR: The WCAG2ICT document shows how WCAG applies to mobile, and then add techniquees
15:35:27 <jeanne> AS: It seems to be a challenge to get it into the mindsets of people.
15:36:05 <KimPatch> zakim, close item 2
15:36:05 <Zakim> agendum 2, Mobile Challenges, closed
15:36:07 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:36:07 <Zakim> 3. Taskforce Deliverables [from KimPatch]
15:36:12 <jeanne> JS: Perhaps a deliverable of "WCAG Applies to Mobile" with examples of how WCAG applies to mobile and then move toward writing deliverables.
15:36:45 <jeanne> KW: I like that idea.  Also look at Easy Checks are popular, writing something easy to read that we could promote.
15:36:50 <Alan_> Alan_ has joined #mobile-a11y
15:36:53 <jeanne> ALan: I like it
15:37:02 <Alan_> reconnecting
15:37:37 <jeanne> KP:  I think one of the problems is lack of call from disability groups, I think some of the groups have been repeatedly disappointed. If we can get people excited, I think they will participate.
15:37:49 <Alan_> 3rd party app development vendors: XBOSoft and Embarcadero are the two I'm tracking
15:38:18 <jeanne> KW: I think collecting stories of how people use mobile devices would really help. I still hear people say "A blind person can't use a touch screen"
15:38:40 <agarrison> +1 for personas for people with disabilities using mobiles etc
15:39:28 <jeanne> Alan: I know a blind manager of software development. Also a teacher who trains other teachers how to use devices for blind users.
15:40:00 <jeanne> KW: We also said designs and best practices for mobile
15:40:20 <jeanne> ... WCAG 2.0 and How it Applies to Mobile
15:40:27 <jeanne> ... Personas for Mobile
15:40:38 <jeanne> ... WCAG Techniques for Mobile and Mobile Apps
15:41:10 <jeanne> ... are there other deliverables we should add to this list?
15:41:49 <jeanne> KP: I like the Personas for Mobile.  Could we make it more real for people?
15:42:29 <jeanne> KW: I make video clips of users and bring it into training classes.  What if we got quotes from PWD using mobile, maybe a short clip into a video persona?
15:42:44 <agarrison> q+
15:43:04 <jeanne> KP: I think you could get people to see the problem instead of telling them about the problem
15:43:10 <jeanne> ack ag
15:43:48 <jeanne> AG: 10 years ago WAI and RNIB created a DVD showing real people with accessibility problems.
15:44:18 <Jan_> BTW: The videos are more watchable when there's some humour: e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzah0A6IC5o
15:44:20 <jeanne> ... Judy Brewer was in it.  She was brilliant.  I still show it people.
15:45:00 <jeanne> KW: Best Practices: Do we need things that go beyond the Techniques?
15:45:49 <KimPatch>  http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/charter
15:46:57 <jeanne> ... if I look back, I see different issues with mobile devices and laptops.  Are there things that would go beyond Techniques of WCAG?
15:47:12 <jeanne> Alan: I've looked at Mobile Web Best Practices.
15:47:24 <jeanne> KW: It is dated.  Do you think we should update it?
15:47:46 <KimPatch> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/work-statement
15:47:50 <jeanne> AG: It's dated July 2008.  I think there are functionalities that didn't exist in 2008.
15:48:04 <Kathleen> q+
15:48:07 <jeanne> ... and it is still oritented toward mobile web and not mobile apps.
15:48:24 <Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/mobile/
15:48:38 <agarrison> Websites that Work DVD from RNIB, with input from WAI - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwOob9cK7oA
15:49:10 <agarrison> DVD from 1999
15:49:35 <Jan_> Here is the WCAG2 for non-Web ICT doc: www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/
15:49:50 <jeanne> KW: I think we have a good start on the list of deliverables.
15:49:54 <agarrison> q+
15:49:59 <jeanne> ack Kath
15:50:46 <jeanne> Kathleen: I have a contact on the Windows8 mobile team, and I was wondering about where you draw the line on the mobile devices. Maybe the Surface should be another device.
15:51:03 <jeanne> KW: It is worth collecting the resources
15:51:20 <jeanne> Kathleen: I will ask him about someone on the Surface team.
15:51:46 <Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/List_of_mobile_assistive_technologies,_and_the_capabilities_and_limitations
15:51:46 <jeanne> Alan: I found the DVD on Youtube and put the link in IRC.
15:52:13 <jeanne> ... I made some progress on my action item
15:53:07 <jeanne> ... when I see a closed platform there aren't a lot of tools to make things better, then I see an open platform with a lot of tools developed.
15:53:19 <jeanne> KW: That's going to be a big help.
15:53:39 <jeanne> s/Alan: I found /Alastair: I found
15:53:58 <jeanne> KP: I'll put another category on the wiki to plug that info in.
15:54:06 <jeanne> KW: That is a great start.
15:54:10 <jeanne> zakim, close this item
15:54:10 <Zakim> I do not know what agendum had been taken up, jeanne
15:54:51 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
15:54:51 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Taskforce Deliverables" taken up [from KimPatch]
15:54:57 <jeanne> zakim, close this item
15:54:57 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jeanne
15:55:06 <jeanne> q?
15:55:08 <jeanne> ack ag
15:55:09 <agarrison> q-
15:55:14 <jeanne> zakim, close this item
15:55:14 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
15:55:15 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:55:15 <Zakim> 4. Using Trackbot for Action Tracking – Jeanne [from KimPatch]
15:55:18 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
15:55:18 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Using Trackbot for Action Tracking – Jeanne" taken up [from KimPatch]
15:55:25 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/
15:59:55 <Zakim> -Jan
16:00:07 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #mobile-a11y
16:03:12 <Alan_> Alan_ has joined #mobile-a11y
16:03:15 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
16:03:40 <KimPatch> Action: Alan Smith to put a list of third-party development tools in Mobile Resources wiki
16:03:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3 - Smith to put a list of third-party development tools in mobile resources wiki [on Alan Smith - due 2013-12-27].
16:03:42 <KimPatch> Action: Kathleen to contact Windows phone and surface for resources input
16:03:42 <trackbot> 'Kathleen' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., spiderwebwoman, kwahlbin).
16:04:09 <jeanne> zakim, close this item
16:04:09 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
16:04:10 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:04:10 <Zakim> 5. Next Steps – next meeting will be Friday January 10 [from KimPatch]
16:04:18 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
16:04:18 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Next Steps – next meeting will be Friday January 10" taken up [from KimPatch]
16:04:21 <Zakim> -alistair
16:04:22 <Zakim> -Alan_Smith
16:04:22 <Zakim> -Kathleen_Anderson
16:04:24 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
16:04:34 <jeanne> KW: Next Meeting January 10. Happy holidays
16:04:50 <KimPatch> Action: Kathleen_Anderson to contact Windows phone and surface for resources input
16:04:50 <trackbot> Error finding 'Kathleen_Anderson'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.
16:06:33 <KimPatch> Action: KathleenA to contact Windows phone and surface for resources input
16:06:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Contact windows phone and surface for resources input [on Kathleen Anderson - due 2013-12-27].
16:07:17 <KimPatch> zakim, list participants
16:07:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kim_Patch, jeanne, alistair, Kathleen_Anderson, Kathy_Wahlbin, Jan, +1.704.877.aaaa, Alan, Alan_Smith
16:07:29 <KimPatch>  rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/20-mobile-a11y-minutes.html KimPatch
16:08:31 <KimPatch> rrsagent, set logs public
16:10:04 <KimPatch> regrets+
16:11:43 <KimPatch> rrs agent, bye
16:11:56 <KimPatch> zakim, bye
16:11:56 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Kim_Patch, jeanne, alistair, Kathleen_Anderson, Kathy_Wahlbin, Jan, +1.704.877.aaaa, Alan, Alan_Smith
16:11:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mobile-a11y
16:13:00 <KimPatch> rrsagent, bye
16:13:00 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/20-mobile-a11y-actions.rdf :
16:13:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kim to remove duplicates on Mobile Resources page [1]
16:13:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/20-mobile-a11y-irc#T15-11-41
16:13:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alan Smith to put a list of third-party development tools in Mobile Resources wiki [2]
16:13:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/20-mobile-a11y-irc#T16-03-40
16:13:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kathleen to contact Windows phone and surface for resources input [3]
16:13:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/20-mobile-a11y-irc#T16-03-42
16:13:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kathleen_Anderson to contact Windows phone and surface for resources input [4]
16:13:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/20-mobile-a11y-irc#T16-04-50
16:13:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: KathleenA to contact Windows phone and surface for resources input [5]
16:13:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/20-mobile-a11y-irc#T16-06-33