13:25:53 RRSAgent has joined #eo 13:25:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/20-eo-irc 13:25:55 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:25:55 Zakim has joined #eo 13:25:57 Zakim, this will be 3694 13:25:57 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 13:25:58 Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference 13:25:58 Date: 20 December 2013 13:26:17 Sharron has joined #eo 13:26:26 trackbot, start meeting 13:26:28 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:26:30 Zakim, this will be 3694 13:26:30 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 13:26:31 Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference 13:26:31 Date: 20 December 2013 13:26:40 Chair: Shawn 13:26:46 Scribe: Sharron 13:27:37 WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started 13:27:44 +Shawn 13:29:15 +Bim 13:29:26 +??P2 13:29:30 Regrets: Wayne, Suzette, Andrew, AnnaBelle, Vicki 13:29:36 Zakim, ??P2 is me 13:29:36 +yatil; got it 13:29:37 dboudreau has joined #eo 13:29:57 Zakim, mute me 13:29:57 yatil should now be muted 13:29:59 hbj has joined #eo 13:30:07 +Sharron 13:30:14 Zakim, unmute me 13:30:14 yatil should no longer be muted 13:30:44 +[IPcaller] 13:31:06 zakim, IPcaller is dboudreau 13:31:06 +dboudreau; got it 13:31:12 morning all! 13:31:42 Zakim, mute me 13:31:42 yatil should now be muted 13:31:49 +hbj 13:32:56 IanPouncey has joined #eo 13:33:08 zakim, mute me 13:33:08 Bim should now be muted 13:34:01 +[IPcaller] 13:34:15 Zakim, IPcaller is me 13:34:15 +IanPouncey; got it 13:34:32 +Jan 13:34:45 zakim, who is here? 13:34:45 On the phone I see Shawn, Bim (muted), yatil (muted), Sharron, dboudreau, hbj, IanPouncey, Jan 13:34:47 On IRC I see IanPouncey, hbj, dboudreau, Sharron, Zakim, RRSAgent, shawn, yatil, Bim, shadi, trackbot 13:34:58 +Shadi 13:35:01 ack me 13:35:10 zakim, shadi has Eric 13:35:10 +Eric; got it 13:35:19 zakim, mute me 13:35:19 Shadi should now be muted 13:35:20 -yatil 13:36:06 zakim, mute me 13:36:06 Bim should now be muted 13:36:20 Jan has joined #eo 13:40:09 Topic: Introductions 13:40:39 Shawn: Let's all take a minute to introduce to new WAI staff member Eric 13:40:51 All: Introductions 13:40:51 ack me 13:41:25 zakim, mute me 13:41:25 dboudreau should now be muted 13:42:30 -IanPouncey 13:42:51 Eric: From Germany, coming to EO from the development side of the web, active in accessiiblity for 7 or 8 years. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2013OctDec/0053.html End of first week, happy to be here. 13:43:02 +[IPcaller] 13:43:09 Zakim, IPcaller is me 13:43:09 +IanPouncey; got it 13:43:11 happy to have you join us, Yatil :) 13:43:22 zakim, mute me 13:43:22 Shadi should now be muted 13:43:24 Shawn: Eric will work on WAI-ACT, the tutorials that were started by Bim. His background includes work on the BAD 13:43:31 Sylvie has joined #eo 13:43:45 Topic: Easy Checks 13:43:47 dboudreau has left #eo 13:44:37 dboudreau has joined #eo 13:45:11 http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks 13:45:52 Shawn: We must publish to day if we want it ot be part of the W3C announcements. Let's look at open issues from the top 13:46:21 If the image has complex information — such as charts or graphs — the image should have a short alt text identifying the image, and then the detailed description of the information should be provided elsewhere (for example, in a data table). 13:46:23 +Sylvie_Duchateau 13:46:51 ZAKIM? MUTE ME 13:47:11 zakim, unmute me 13:47:11 dboudreau should no longer be muted 13:47:15 zakim, mute me 13:47:15 Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted 13:47:49 ack me 13:48:25 Bim: I am happy with "what the image is about" without going into unecessary detail. 13:48:32 ack me 13:48:39 +! to what he image is about 13:48:56 Shawn: And remember when the images tutorial is available we will pont to it 13:48:58 ack me 13:49:01 If the image has complex information — such as charts or graphs — the image should have a short alt text identifying what the image is about, and then the detailed description of the information should be provided elsewhere (for example, in a data table). 13:50:03 Q+ 13:50:09 Helle: I have some concerns. It may be hard to translate. In Danish it would translate to be what it looks like. And we tell people to think aobut fundtion rather than appearance. 13:50:23 ack d 13:50:25 Q+ 13:51:07 denis first suggestion "the image should have a short alt text describing the nature or purpose of the image, and then the detailed..." 13:51:46 ack i 13:51:55 Denis: We can't talk aobut functionality with complex images. It may be as simple as to provide the data in a table. What the image is about then summarizes the visual presentaion of the data and points to a table of data. 13:52:12 Helle: Yes I understand better now, it should be OK 13:52:22 q+ ian 13:53:14 Helle: OK if I understand the context as being about complex images, it is acceptable. 13:53:34 zakim, unmute me 13:53:34 Sylvie_Duchateau should no longer be muted 13:53:40 Sharron: So "what the image is about" is OK with you? 13:53:49 Helle: Yes in this context it is. 13:54:31 Sylvie: Well, I understand this concpet and seems clear enough to me. Another possibility would be "the topic of the image" 13:54:53 ..."what informatio is conveyed" 13:55:06 Sharron: A summary of the image content 13:55:45 +q 13:55:47 ...although I like "what the image is about" it seems concise and tidy 13:55:51 ack h 13:56:37 what about : "summarising the information conveyed by the image". 13:56:49 or information contained in the image. 13:57:01 Helle: To some of us it goes back to historical education of not expecting visual description but meaning or purpose of image 13:58:15 ...would it not be more accurate to use this only with complex images (graph and charts specifically)? 13:58:23 Sharron: yes that is the purpose 13:58:55 +1 13:58:59 Shawn: I propose that we use the current wording and leave it on the list for future consideration. 13:59:06 Sharron: +1 13:59:08 +1 13:59:10 +1 13:59:12 +1 to moving forward 13:59:16 +1 13:59:29 zakim, mute me 13:59:29 hbj should now be muted 13:59:44 zakim, mute me 13:59:44 dboudreau should now be muted 13:59:53 Shawn: Next point was at the end of this discussion, to add for example in a data table or longdesc 14:00:17 +Howard 14:00:20 ...I propose that we do not go there since that is a bugaboo, a complex issue that goes beyond Easy Checks 14:00:48 Howard has joined #eo 14:00:53 Howard: Sure, that's fine 14:02:01 ack me 14:02:14 Shawn: Next point was too move the expand / collapse 14:02:21 Denis: ONly on this one? 14:02:41 Shawn: Yes it would be somewhat inocnsistent but ...Howard? 14:03:18 Howard: Here, the "Tips" seem very crucial information aobut what actually IS needed for appropriate alt text. 14:03:59 ...I don't see how a newbie would fully understand the proptocols without the "Tips" inofrmation 14:04:22 Denis: Add you could easily miss that section when it is collapsed 14:04:28 ack me 14:04:45 ack bim 14:05:32 Bim: The problem is with the term "Tips" on its own. Perhaps Tips and Examples 14:06:19 Shawn: If we moved it, it will add just two paragraphs. And the content is probably good for all to see. 14:06:21 zakim, mute me 14:06:21 Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted 14:06:23 q+ 14:06:38 ack d 14:06:43 zakim, mute me 14:06:43 Bim should now be muted 14:07:40 Denis: We have some h3 that are not collapsible. Why wouldn't we put the collapse on the Alt text Checks 14:09:00 Shawn: Proposal is to move Expand-Collapse one level down and put the second paragraph in the collapsed section 14:09:16 +1 14:09:19 +1 14:09:19 +1 14:09:19 +1 14:09:19 +1 14:09:22 Sharron:+1 14:09:25 +1 14:09:36 dboudreau has left #eo 14:09:37 +1 14:09:43 dboudreau has joined #eo 14:10:30 ack Ian 14:10:57 Ian: I have some additional comments about the alt text section. They are fairly straight forward 14:11:30 ...I like the way that alt is called out as an attribute and not a tag - well done! 14:12:02 alt is an attribute of the image element, and other elements 14:12:19 zakim, mute me 14:12:19 Howard should now be muted 14:12:21 ...should be alt is attribute of image element, not image tag 14:12:30 "alt is an attribute of the image tag, and other tags" -> "alt is an attribute of the image element, and other elements" 14:12:32 EDIT ^^^ 14:13:57 Ian: Related to no alt text, even a decorative imge should have alt text if it is meant to be downloaded and used again 14:15:05 subtopic: Heading 14:15:06 Shawn: That is a very particular instance and since we are not trying to be defintitve are you OK with something at that level of complexity be omitted until the tutorials 14:15:26 Ian: There is currently no mention of HTML5 heading structures 14:16:12 Shawn: Anything specific for the NEXT draft can go into the wiki and can llook for next round of updates and revisions 14:16:27 subtopic: text resize 14:17:24 Ian: On text resize, why in the suggested how to check is to increase using the plus four times? When I tried it in the FF browser, it did not get to 200% 14:17:52 Shawn: The keyboard controls move it either too much or not enough, so we made this call 14:18:09 subtopic: keyboard 14:18:34 Ian: For keyboard access, in OSX tabbing through nonform elements is not enabled by default 14:18:38 Best guide to enabling keyboard access: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200906/enabling_keyboard_navigation_in_mac_os_x_web_browsers/ 14:19:07 ...it can be enabled using this guide. Can we link to that or summarize the method within the Easy Checks? 14:19:34 That’s really ridiculous on OS X. 14:19:35 Shawn: Do you need to do this for all OSX browsers? 14:19:49 Ian: Yes, otherwise you can tab only to form lelements, not to links. 14:20:24 Sharron: Could we not just link to that Guide instead of trying to relpicate the instructions? 14:20:41 Shawn: WAI is very careful about linking out 14:21:12 Ian: Not sure if there is an equivalent on any of the W3C sites, but I can look. 14:21:19 It is a bit outdated, the System preferences changed a bit in the meantime. 14:21:40 ack me 14:22:06 the information for safari is still 100% relevant today 14:22:57 Eric: We may need to consider how to address this because some may be outdated 14:23:51 Shawn: It is important to address so I think we make a note that on OS testers must enable full keyboard access 14:24:10 ...but we do not link to anything for this draft 14:24:36 works for me 14:24:36 Sharron: Yes that seems a good temporary solution 14:24:40 zakim, ack me 14:24:40 unmuting Howard 14:24:42 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:24:42 +1 14:25:23 Shawn: Can you suggest wording? 14:25:28 EDIT: to "In a browser that supports keyboard navigation with the Tab key (for example, Firefox, IE, Chrome, and Safari; not Opera):" need to enable in some Mac browsers 14:25:56 Ian: Use the broadest language, that edit looks good to me 14:25:57 zakim, ack me 14:25:57 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:25:59 Zakim, mute Shadi 14:25:59 Shadi should now be muted 14:26:05 zakim, mute me 14:26:05 Howard should now be muted 14:26:45 ...Finally we talk about being able to access media player controls but fail to mention the inherant barriers in Flash woithout Javascripting 14:27:03 ...you will not be able to make Flash keyboard accessible in every browser 14:27:56 ...there are WCAG2 techniques that we could link to? 14:28:18 Shawn: We are trying not to point to specifc details like that. Rather to the SC related to it 14:28:53 proposal: "Tab to all: Check that you can tab to all the elements, including links, form fields, buttons, and media player controls." add (A common problem is that you cannot tab to media player controls.) 14:29:21 (Here is the technique: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/FLASH17.html) 14:29:23 Shawn: is this an unecessary detail, important to add, what? 14:29:26 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:29:26 On the phone I see Howard (muted), Shawn, Bim (muted), Sharron, dboudreau, hbj (muted), Jan, Shadi (muted), IanPouncey, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted) 14:29:28 Shadi has Eric 14:29:57 ack me 14:29:59 Denis: It adds value to mention itl, let people know what to look out for 14:30:20 Sharron: +1 to Denis 14:31:21 zakim, unmute me 14:31:21 Howard should no longer be muted 14:31:34 Ian: The media section references this, so this is the place to put the alert for new testers. 14:31:42 ...it would also apply to games, etc 14:31:56 Howard: I agree with Denis and Sharron it is worth mentioning 14:31:57 +1 14:31:59 +1 14:31:59 +1 14:32:05 +1 14:32:06 +1 14:32:12 +1 14:32:28 actually, +1 if t doesn'T set us back with publishing today 14:32:39 Bim: Only thinking that it is unusual in EasyChecks for a common problem to be called out like that. 14:32:40 EDIT: "Tab to all: Check that you can tab to all the elements, including links, form fields, buttons, and media player controls." add "(A common problem is that you cannot tab to media player controls.)" 14:33:17 Shawn: For this section we call out common problems twice 14:33:17 zakim, mute me 14:33:17 Bim should now be muted 14:33:27 Shawn: Anything else Ian? 14:33:36 Ian: No I am done causing trouble 14:34:11 q+ 14:34:19 ack s 14:34:25 zakim, unmute me 14:34:25 Sylvie_Duchateau should no longer be muted 14:36:29 Sylvie: INstead of a common problem is, can we say a known issue and it is not always possible to tab through media player controls with every browser or AT 14:36:58 Shawn: In the next, we have the verbiage about keyboard trap 14:37:44 ...mouse dependency, etc so we use the term common problem elsewhere 14:37:58 Sylvie: Oh OK I thought you were looking for another word there 14:38:14 http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks#Forms 14:38:15 subtopic: forms 14:38:23 zakim, mute me 14:38:23 Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted 14:38:27 Shawn: Two things: 14:38:34 ...a note in the Forms section 14:38:36 "Note: This section is more complex. If it's too complicated, consider skipping it for now and doing the next checks for multimedia and structure." 14:39:15 Shawn: Everyone seemd OK with the wording 14:39:22 +1 than the others 14:39:26 yes 14:39:27 +1 on moving forms to the end 14:39:42 ...Sylvie suggested to add "more complex than the others" 14:39:48 EDIT: ""Note: This section is more complex. If it's too complicated, consider skipping it for now and doing the next checks for multimedia and structure."" -> ""Note: This section is more complex than the others. If it's too complicated, consider skipping it for now and doing the next checks for multimedia and structure." 14:40:04 +1 to "than the others" 14:41:14 Shawn: What about the order of the EasyChecks? Ian? Eric? some new perspectives? 14:43:40 +1 for reordering later 14:43:57 +1 for reordering later 14:45:24 +1 14:45:50 isn't this our Xmas present to the world? 14:46:06 Publish! 14:46:08 :-D 14:46:13 +1 for reordering later 14:47:00 Shawn: To be clear that we are only changing from Editor's Draft to WG Draft and making an announcement 14:47:06 +1 to reordering later too 14:48:36 Denis: The open issue of keyboard access to captions in YouTube is still not possible 14:49:07 Shawn: Seems all are comfortable with Basic Structure (View) 14:50:38 ack me 14:50:53 ...so on to the next, we are looking in BAD Eric maybe you can help 14:51:25 ...we say to proactice checking structure with BAD 14:51:46 zakim, mute me 14:51:46 dboudreau should now be muted 14:52:31 http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/preliminary#plainBAD 14:52:58 ^^ add action for Eric :) 14:53:36 ack me 14:53:55 Zakim, mute Shadi 14:53:55 Shadi should now be muted 14:53:57 http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/preliminary#next 14:54:26 zakim, mute me 14:54:26 Howard should now be muted 14:55:14 Denis: Tables are much more difficult to test when you are not technical 14:55:51 Shawn: Yes that is why we say "Hey this not a definitive check and here are some of the things that are NOT covered here" 14:56:06 Ian: What wouold cover under redundant color coding 14:56:44 Shawn: required fields indicated only by color..that is an old WCAG1 term, so maybe we should update the wording 14:57:04 Ian: Checks for links could be as simple as making sure your link has content 14:57:07 Reliance on color coding? 14:57:46 Shawn: We had one for a while and it got to be too many false positives and complications and qualifications that made us delete it from an EasyCheck 14:58:18 Zakim, unmute Shadi 14:58:18 Shadi should no longer be muted 14:59:09 Zakim, mute Shadi 14:59:09 Shadi should now be muted 14:59:22 EDIT: "Redundant color coding" -> "Reliance on color coding" 14:59:23 +1 for move to "reliance" 15:00:06 Shawn: Helle had suggested definition lists to be considered for next draft 15:00:06 ack me 15:01:27 Helle: Came up when we found that when people pay attention only to WCAG2 AA they miss some AAA items that are actually easy to implement 15:03:08 +1 15:03:12 +1 15:03:12 publish 15:03:15 +1 15:03:16 +1 15:03:17 +1 to publishing this next draft 15:03:19 publish & announce working group draft today? 15:03:25 Shawn: Question is to publish today? 15:03:28 +1 15:03:33 +1 15:03:33 +1 to publish as a draft 15:03:35 Sharron: +1 15:03:37 +1 publishing and announcing 15:04:47 Shawn: Thanks so much for your contributions. After the call, I will put the changes in the wiki, make the updates to the Draft, publish as Working Group Draft....and announce!! 15:05:27 ...we are redoing all of the illustrations with the guidance we have gotten from the general specification development 15:06:12 Topic: Evaluation Tools DataBase rejig 15:06:13 http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Evaluation_tools 15:06:19 ack me 15:07:03 Bim: After the input and discussion about users we had a few weeks ago, I rewrote the stories and what I would really like are your views on what might be missing 15:07:56 ...look for redundancies, are any of the Use Cases exact duplicates? any other suggestions are welcome but especially have we gotten our most likely user stories captured? 15:08:16 zakim, mute me 15:08:16 hbj should now be muted 15:08:22 old db http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/Overview.html 15:08:25 Shawn: What this is for is when the Evaluation Tools DB is updated, we want to provide context for who will use it 15:09:23 ...how will they use it and since this is just internal to help us as we develop the DB just make sure we have the right scenarios to guide the development of the tools database to amke sure that we are meeting all needs 15:10:08 q+ to ask [after other specific comments] if want/need to prioritize 15:11:46 -IanPouncey 15:11:53 Shawn: Ian thanks for coming and before you go, we want to meet for EO at CSUN so keep that in mind as you schedule 15:11:59 zakim, ack me 15:11:59 unmuting Howard 15:12:01 I see shawn on the speaker queue 15:12:23 Howard: I have a question - this is an internal list? we won't publish the database? 15:12:58 Shawn: No the database itself will be public but the user stories that we are relying on to guide the development of the DB is internal only 15:13:18 Howard: Yes I can see that this could be a great tool when updated. 15:13:24 zakim, mute me 15:13:24 Howard should now be muted 15:13:29 Shawn: So looking at this list, is it complete? 15:14:04 ack me 15:14:04 shawn, you wanted to ask [after other specific comments] if want/need to prioritize 15:14:26 q+ 15:15:08 Shawn: Question I had was what is the grouping or prioritization of this many users? Should we group them? or are you happy with there being 12 + equal needs groups? 15:15:12 ack sh 15:15:19 ack shadi 15:15:30 Bim: Yes it would be useful to have a prioritized list 15:16:34 Shadi: Yes seems like the next step is prioritization. But if we tke a bit more time, we may come up with more examples of users. 15:16:39 ack me 15:17:29 ...make sure all of those scenarios are covered. Some will overlap in terms of functionality 15:18:01 ...we will find some of that as well but I just want to make sure that before we begin to prioritize that we have all bases covered 15:18:22 zakim, mute me 15:18:22 Shadi should now be muted 15:18:26 q+ 15:18:27 ...now the you have nothing to do over holiday break, give it some thought 15:18:44 ack d 15:18:55 ack dboudreau 15:19:51 zakim, mute me 15:19:51 hbj should now be muted 15:21:01 Denis: There are monitoring tools but what about developers working alone vs QA people working alone. if we started by categorizing in terms of roles we could reassign the different elements we have within those categories 15:21:10 previous version based on roles http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/index.php?title=Evaluation_tools&oldid=7347 15:21:13 q+ 15:21:18 @shawn oh, ok 15:21:30 Shawn: Bim's different approach based on roles began to be hair-splitting 15:22:04 Bim: Regardless of the role they are in, we focused instead on what they are trying to do 15:22:16 ack me 15:22:41 Shadi: there is a role in the scenario and there is a tool description or mention as well 15:23:07 +q 15:23:09 ...seems like a scenario might be a better approach than either focussing on the specific tool or the specific role. 15:23:19 zakim, mute me 15:23:19 Shadi should now be muted 15:23:34 ...a focus instead on the task seemed to us the most useful approach 15:24:18 Bim: We tried to be a bit specific to give the description some life but the auto tools check is something that could be used by any number of the individuals in the scenarios list 15:24:52 ack me 15:24:56 ack me 15:25:06 zakim, mute me 15:25:06 Shadi should now be muted 15:25:32 ack me 15:25:44 Helle: Just wondering if this would also cover end users, if I am experincing barriers and want to validate that there is a conformance issue as well 15:26:21 zakim, mute me 15:26:21 Shadi should now be muted 15:27:23 Bim: Is this something that people might spend time on in the next couple of weeks? And adding comments? 15:27:48 Sharron: I can 15:28:05 ack me 15:28:28 zakim, mute me 15:28:28 Shadi should now be muted 15:28:45 ack me 15:28:52 zakim, mute me 15:28:52 Bim should now be muted 15:29:36 zakim, unmute me 15:29:36 Howard should no longer be muted 15:29:36 ack me 15:29:52 -Jan 15:29:54 Shawn: Reviews coming up, please look at ATAG, WCAG-EM review. Have great holidays and will see you in 2014. 15:29:54 Jan has left #eo 15:29:54 Happy Holidays! :-D 15:29:54 bye 15:29:56