15:00:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:00:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/16-pf-irc
15:00:23 <MarkS> zakim, mute me
15:00:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
15:00:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pf
15:00:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
15:00:26 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM already started
15:00:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
15:00:27 <trackbot> Date: 16 December 2013
15:00:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
15:00:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
15:00:46 <Zakim> +??P31
15:00:49 <MarkS> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jon_Gunderson, [Mozilla], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, marks, ??P31
15:00:58 <janina_> zakim, ??P31 is me
15:00:58 <Zakim> +janina_; got it
15:01:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2013Dec/0026.html
15:02:32 <Zakim> +??P50
15:02:36 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P50 is Michael_Cooper
15:02:36 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper; got it
15:02:52 <davidb> Zakim, Mozilla has Alexander_Surkov
15:02:52 <Zakim> +Alexander_Surkov; got it
15:02:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
15:03:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:47 <clown> clown has joined #pf
15:04:33 <SteveF> SteveF has joined #pf
15:04:59 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
15:05:09 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:05:09 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
15:05:18 <MichaelC> zakim, ipcaller is SteveF
15:05:18 <Zakim> +SteveF; got it
15:05:22 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:05:22 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:07:30 <Zakim> +Matt_King
15:07:38 <jongund> JS: Update on status of implementation guide
15:08:11 <mattking> mattking has joined #pf
15:08:26 <jongund> JS: Need to add version information on what was tested
15:09:22 <jongund> JS: In two or three years people will want to know what was tested
15:09:36 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #pf
15:09:39 <jongund> Clown: When do we need it by?
15:09:59 <jongund> MC: Soon
15:10:23 <jongund> RS: Comments about at risk items?
15:10:38 <jongund> MC: There was a good discussion
15:10:52 <Zakim> +James_Craig
15:11:09 <jongund> Clown: There a couple edits the GNOME people wanted in the editors draft
15:11:17 <jongund> MC: When were they made?
15:11:49 <jongund> Clown: December 4th
15:12:44 <jongund> Clown: I marked two items for pending review, mostly for the benefit of the gnome people
15:13:14 <jongund> RS: What is the mac OS X version information we tested on?
15:13:33 <jongund> JC: The best thing to do is use the OS version number
15:13:45 <jongund> MC: Specified against
15:14:12 <jongund> JC: Version 10.9.0, API only ships with the OS update
15:14:18 <jongund> MC: We need a URI
15:14:52 <jongund> MC: It points to the version of the API
15:15:35 <jongund> MC: Right now it points to mac, we need to point to a stable URL that includes the version
15:15:37 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#references_informative
15:16:39 <jongund> MC: Concerned about the world being true at this point, changes in APIs require new documentation
15:16:58 <jongund> Clown: We can use 2.1
15:17:22 <jongund> Clown: I put an URL in the chat room
15:17:41 <clown> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/Accessibility/cocoaAXIntro/cocoaAXintro.html
15:17:42 <jongund> JS: We need a stable URI, that doesn't change over time
15:17:56 <jongund> JS: I know they exist at GNOME,org
15:18:06 <jcraig> For the Mac AX API, you can reference the same location: https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Reference/ApplicationKit/Protocols/NSAccessibility_Protocol/Reference/Reference.html
15:18:09 <jongund> JC: there is a couple of links that we could put in
15:18:24 <jongund> JC: It says available in 10.2 and later...
15:18:39 <jcraig> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Reference/ApplicationKit/Protocols/NSAccessibility_Protocol/Reference/Reference.html#//apple_ref/occ/instm/NSObject/accessibilityArrayAttributeValues:index:maxCount:
15:18:47 <jcraig> Available in OS X v10.6 and later.
15:19:10 <jongund> JC: This one says available in 10.6 or later, or deprecated
15:19:23 <jcraig> Current release is 10.9
15:19:25 <jongund> RS: If we have verision numbers that should be fine
15:19:35 <jongund> JC: Latest release is 10.9
15:19:43 <jongund> Clown: Do I have the URL?
15:20:00 <jongund> JC: I pasted what is in the document now
15:20:10 <jongund> Clown: I pasted what is in the document now
15:20:28 <jongund> JC: The one I put in is the protocol reference
15:20:44 <jongund> Clown: I should use yours?  What should I put there?
15:20:55 <jongund> RS: Mac OS 10.9 version number
15:21:04 <jcraig> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Reference/ApplicationKit/Protocols/NSAccessibility_Protocol/Reference/Reference.html
15:21:23 <jongund> JC: The companion guide link is the one you already have
15:21:34 <jongund> Clown: Use the one in the chat room now?
15:21:55 <jongund> Clown: I need something from Microsoft MSAA
15:22:03 <jongund> Clown: there is no version information
15:22:12 <jongund> Clown: If you follow the link it might
15:22:19 <clown> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms697707.aspx
15:22:34 <clown> http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/accessibility/iaccessible2
15:22:40 <jongund> JS: I think we are 1.3 or something like that
15:22:56 <jongund> Clown: this is what i have for IAcessible2
15:23:03 <jongund> JS: this sounds right
15:23:17 <jongund> RS: It has table 2 so that would be correct
15:24:09 <clown> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee684013%28VS.85%29.aspx
15:24:31 <jongund> RS: Are we all set with this?  Can we moved on?
15:24:58 <jongund> Clown: UIA is at risk right now
15:25:09 <jongund> Clown: There is no version number at this UIA link
15:25:20 <jongund> RS: You need to ask cynthia about this
15:25:35 <jongund> RS: Accessibility defects in HTML5
15:25:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: HTML5 defect 23371
15:25:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23371
15:26:08 <jongund> TOPIC: Strong Native Semantics table appears to imply @hidden trumps @aria-hidden
15:26:49 <jongund> SF: Before the change was made in the spec, the HIDDEN attribute, basically HIDDEN overrides aria-hidden=false
15:27:37 <jongund> SF: Hidden shouldn't override aria-hidden=false, it wouldn't block the content from being seen by AT
15:28:38 <jongund> JC: I objected because hidden is a boolean, most elements is not hidden, that aria-hidden would never be valid, since the native semantics would override the aria-hidden
15:28:55 <jongund> MK: You mean aria-hidden means nothing
15:29:16 <jongund> Clown: does hidden apply to all elements?
15:29:39 <jongund> JC: yes, all render able elements
15:30:15 <jongund> MK: So it cases where you have the hidden attribute and aria-hidden=false
15:31:13 <jongund> Alex: I understand there are 2 issue: one is semantic and you get two different version of the tree
15:31:26 <jcraig> q+ to explain the semantic distinction Alex mentioned
15:31:49 <jongund> RS: I think the thing is, if something visually hidden, but whats the information available to people with AT
15:31:52 <SteveF> current support for hidden/aria-hidden http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/hidden2013.html
15:32:44 <jongund> MK: I think these is a big problem the authors leaving aria-hidden, I think we need a different attribute, non-visual description attribute
15:32:54 <jongund> RS: We could do that in the future
15:33:19 <jcraig> q+ to respond to Alex's objection about *unhiding* hidden elements without rendering views
15:33:33 <jongund> MK: The idea of revealing content to an AT that is not visible for visually
15:33:54 <jongund> SF: This is a technique that has been used for years, using offscreen
15:33:59 <jongund> MK: that is different
15:34:05 <jongund> JC: how is that different
15:34:46 <jongund> MK: That is not generally the way people hide content, we would not normally hide collapsed stuff with CSS or hidden attribue
15:35:11 <jongund> MK: Hiding content off left was a hack
15:35:50 <jongund> JC: there are many other cases like opacity and other techniques
15:35:57 <jcraig> ack me
15:35:57 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to explain the semantic distinction Alex mentioned and to respond to Alex's objection about *unhiding* hidden elements without rendering views
15:36:18 <jongund> MK: These are all problems that need to have a solution
15:36:37 <jongund> JC: In the spec it says hidden means hidden in all presentations
15:37:07 <jcraig> el.show()
15:37:17 <jongund> JC: So having aria-hidden make it visible, also hidden can become visible using CSS
15:37:57 <jongund> JC: The main purposes is to hide and show content visually, we need a way to override for AT
15:38:08 <jcraig> <div role="status" style="display:none"></div>
15:38:12 <jongund> JC: So if you had an off screen live region
15:39:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:39:23 <jongund> JC: lot of cases where this is the least hackey solution
15:41:28 <jongund> MK: If you can associate it with it before or after, the actual screen position is not important
15:41:33 <jongund> JC: It depends
15:41:57 <jongund> MK: There is one statements, you need a way of overriding HTML5 hidden
15:42:19 <jcraig> Not specifically tied to @hidden. Also applies to display:none; etc
15:43:06 <jongund> MK: It seems like HIDDEN and other CSS properties are all about visual rendering, if we need non-visual content visible we should have a way to do it regardless of CSS or HIDDEN
15:43:32 <jongund> JC: That is what this is for, aria-hidden is to overriding native semantics
15:44:06 <jongund> MK: That is what I am saying that we need a easy way without the confusion of CSS states
15:44:52 <jongund> Clown: Some screen readers were looking at the DOM since they did not see the computed CSS
15:45:26 <jongund> Clown: aria-hidden was special when it was introduced
15:45:52 <jongund> RS: Authors are using it to hide content...., and to expose content that was visually hidden
15:45:55 <jcraig> "Some screen readers" = Firevox
15:46:28 <jongund> RS: We are having problems with aria-hidden being false
15:46:28 <jcraig> All other screen readers at the time used the screen rendering.
15:47:03 <jongund> RS: One case is that it is being used to make content visible to AT that is hidden to other people
15:47:34 <jongund> JC: one common use is hidden header, position them off screen so they are seen by screen readers
15:47:38 <jongund> RS: Other examples
15:47:55 <jongund> MK: I don't think we are short of use cases
15:47:56 <jcraig> skip links
15:48:37 <jongund> SF: Visual link does not have enough information, so you put content in a span to add extra information and put it off screen
15:48:45 <jcraig> <a href="#">Learn more <span hidden aria-hidden="false">about product X</span></a>
15:48:56 <jongund> RS: that is a situation that would impair the sighted user
15:49:15 <jongund> SF: There is no good method other than to push it off screen
15:49:19 <jcraig> Sighted users see "Learn more"; a11y users hear "Learn more about product X"
15:49:45 <jongund> SF: it is usually discrete chunks of test, not a whole new user interface
15:49:57 <jongund> JC: There a bunch of use cases
15:50:26 <jongund> RS: Alex needs more information about use cases, does he have enough use cases?
15:50:56 <SteveF> Invisible Content Just for Screen Reader Users http://webaim.org/techniques/css/invisiblecontent/
15:51:13 <jongund> Alex: Evidence of need of aria-hidden for description...
15:51:33 <jongund> MK: The live region use cases is especially important
15:52:18 <jongund> MK: So like search results summary, is a strong case, dynamic information only to AT users
15:53:09 <jongund> MK: You don't want only the .. you type in a text box and different types of new content appear on the screen, you don't want a live region, you want something short and terse
15:53:35 <jongund> JC: Some times that is visually displayed, but screen reader users need that information
15:53:57 <jongund> MK: Sometimes the information on screen is too terse, so it needs more context
15:54:17 <jcraig> s/but sometimes it's not, and screen reader users still need that information/
15:54:19 <jongund> RS: the live region use case is particularly strong
15:54:41 <jongund> RS: When aria-hidden=false is exposes content to AT
15:55:02 <jongund> Alex: I would like to see some examples and make sure there are other techniques
15:55:34 <jongund> JC: The other techniques are CSS hacks, and this hack seems to be more understandable than the other hacks
15:55:41 <Zakim> +Cooper
15:55:55 <jongund> MK: We need something on the aria side to solve the problem
15:56:09 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
15:56:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:56:55 <clown> q+ to ask if all use cases are relevant only to screen readers
15:57:44 <jongund> MK: We need an unambiguous way to make information visible to AT and specifically hidden to visual users
15:57:58 <jongund> RS: We are not able control of the visual rendering
15:58:26 <jongund> RS: Alot of stuff in HTML5 came because we showed them an early draft of aria
15:58:31 <jcraig> q+ to remind everyone that accessibility APIs are used by more than just screen readers
15:58:48 <jongund> MK: There could be an HTML5 attribute for non-visual display only
15:59:14 <jongund> JC: Accessibility APIs are used by other people than ATs
15:59:52 <jongund> MK: Problematically to AT and not ever displayed on the screen
16:00:02 <jongund> JC: I think that is what aria-hidden is doing
16:00:10 <jcraig> s/ATs/screen readers, such as switch control, zoom, automation, etc./
16:00:29 <jongund> RS: I think we need to come to a decision on this?
16:00:30 <jcraig> q-
16:00:36 <jongund> JC: What is the decision?
16:01:10 <jongund> RS: That HIDDEN attribute has weak native semantics in relationship to aria-hidden attribute
16:01:21 <jongund> JC: is that a HTML5 decision?
16:01:30 <jongund> RS: SF asked that we vote onthis
16:01:40 <jongund> MK: Do we have a decenter?
16:02:13 <jongund> RS: Alex do you support SF proposal that HIDDEN has weak semantics?
16:02:28 <jongund> Alex: What I hear contradicts HTML5 concepts
16:02:52 <jongund> RS: What we are saying with aria-hidden controls what is rendered to the accessibility APIs
16:03:14 <jongund> Alex: aria usually defers to native semantics
16:03:42 <jongund> RS: HTML5 will define the strong and weak native semantics
16:04:35 <jongund> JC: Do you agree with this use case
16:04:52 <jongund> Alex: We expose, that particular item is hidden....
16:05:15 <jongund> JC: If you agree, then without the HIDDEN attribute you would have the same function
16:05:40 <jongund> JC: The HIDDEN attribute has to be strong in either case
16:05:54 <jongund> RS: Alex, it doesn't seem to object
16:06:03 <jongund> RS: Does anyone object?
16:06:20 <jongund> Clown: Is the two choices strong or weak?
16:06:32 <jongund> JC: You can have no relationship
16:07:04 <jongund> Clown: In current implementations of HIDDEN is to use display: none
16:07:24 <jongund> Clown: I don't want the strong mapping
16:08:10 <jongund> JC: Mapping we would not want it to be aria-hidden false
16:08:44 <jongund> JC: If you have it is the weak mapping, that it would still be hidden
16:09:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:09:10 <jongund> SF: If there is nothing specified than browsers can do what ever they want
16:09:51 <jongund> SF: My understanding is that Webkit implemented this behavior, it exposes the elements, but not the content
16:09:59 <jongund> JC: You are right there is a bug
16:10:40 <jongund> SF: If you use aria-hidden=false it exposes it as expected in most borwser/ats, but not FF
16:10:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:11:00 <jongund> Clown: Are all the use cases all the screen use cases?
16:11:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:11:07 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to ask if all use cases are relevant only to screen readers
16:11:08 <jongund> SF: I think so
16:11:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:11:43 <jongund> Clown: Accessibility API is not just for screen readers, including magnifiers
16:12:04 <jongund> JC: Magnifiers use the api to look for hit targets
16:12:38 <jongund> Clown: Magnifiers also track keyboard focus
16:12:54 <jongund> JC: This would not allow keyboard focus
16:13:32 <jongund> Clown: There is an off screen attribute in some APIs
16:14:08 <jongund> SF: Part of some of the implementations that defining some information of this situation
16:14:29 <jongund> MK: in the accessibility API
16:14:47 <jongund> Clown: Sme APIs have it we just need to map it
16:15:04 <jongund> Clown: It might be in there, i don't have it memorized
16:15:20 <jongund> RS: Do people have any objects to SF proposal?
16:15:42 <jongund> RS: none, resolution that it be a weak binding
16:15:45 <jcraig> ACTION: Joseph to consider mapping the "offscreen" API properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements.
16:15:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1320 - Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2013-12-23].
16:15:59 <jongund> RS: thats the first one. we also have the API binding
16:16:43 <jongund> RS: in the case of aria-hidden=false do we expose to accessibility API with additional information on being on screen in ARIA 1.1 spec
16:17:12 <jongund> MK: Are there any limitations on what could be exposed?
16:17:39 <jongund> MK: You would have to expose it as part of the tree?
16:17:51 <jongund> RS: We don't have time to do the details here
16:18:27 <jongund> SF: if you have a container element with display: none or hidden, you can't expose children, then you have some .....
16:18:43 <jcraig> q+
16:18:44 <jongund> MK: that's what I want to be clear on
16:18:55 <jongund> RS: They would apply to the sub tree
16:19:18 <jongund> JC: It applies to text nodes, element nodes have there own display properties
16:19:38 <jongund> JC: A non-hidden element that is inside a hidden element is still hidden
16:19:50 <jongund> JC: That can be clarified in the spec
16:19:57 <SteveF> example <p id="h" hidden><span aria-hidden="false">patrick is a knob</span> test 8 html5 hidden aria-hidden="false" on child element;</p>
16:20:02 <jongund> MK: if you had a hidden sub menu......
16:20:14 <SteveF> the above example does not work
16:21:42 <jongund> ... discussion of an authoring situation where people use aria-hidden as a CSS selector
16:22:31 <jongund> JC: Sometimes authors make error with dynamically changing content not being updated
16:23:07 <jongund> MK: You retain all the semantics, it works on any elements, aria-hidden=false always override
16:23:20 <jongund> JC: I will add an action to clarify in ARIA 1.1 spec
16:23:48 <jongund> RS: We have 2 action items: one for implementation guide and one for the ARIA 1.1 spec
16:23:57 <jongund> JC: The implementation guide is already there
16:24:40 <jongund> Alex: I agree with ARIA 1.1 changes
16:25:30 <jongund> RS: If aria-hidden=false where something is hidden using hidden or display: none needs additional information on that it is not visible
16:25:35 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to clarify in ARIA 1.1 that aria-hidden="false" does not override the hidden state of parent nodes, only the current node. e.g. <div hidden><div aria-hidden="false">this text still hidden</div></div>
16:25:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1321 - Clarify in aria 1.1 that aria-hidden="false" does not override the hidden state of parent nodes, only the current node. e.g. <div hidden><div aria-hidden="false">this text still hidden</div></div> [on James Craig - due 2013-12-23].
16:25:54 <jongund> Alex: having an accessible objects for hidden things is not very useful to ATs
16:26:09 <jongund> JC: are you taking about the accessible name?
16:26:24 <jongund> Alex: yes, having an accessible object is not useful
16:26:55 <jongund> JC: Use cases: off screen headers; off screen text in a link
16:27:14 <jcraig> <a href="#">Learn more <span hidden aria-hidden="false">about product X</span></a>
16:27:34 <jongund> JC: A more complex example is a live region
16:27:48 <jongund> JC: There are some examples in the test cases
16:28:14 <jongund> JG: I can make some examples
16:28:37 <jongund> JG: I will send to the list
16:29:08 <jcraig> ACTION: jon to make some examples for aria-hidden="false" (including a hidden live region)
16:29:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1322 - Make some examples for aria-hidden="false" (including a hidden live region) [on Jon Gunderson - due 2013-12-23].
16:29:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23380
16:29:24 <jongund> RS: I would like to squeeze this in
16:29:33 <jongund> JC: I have to leave soon
16:29:49 <jongund> TOPIC: review other aria state mappings to see if they need to be explicitly allowed
16:30:00 <jongund> Clown: aria-inert
16:30:09 <jongund> JC: We discuss at FTF meeting?
16:30:21 <jongund> RS: Ok to discuss at FTF meeting
16:30:40 <Zakim> -James_Craig
16:30:42 <Zakim> -SteveF
16:30:44 <jcraig> jcraig has left #pf
16:30:50 <jongund> RS: Next meeting is January 6th
16:31:17 <jongund> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:31:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/16-pf-minutes.html jongund
16:31:21 <janina_> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf
16:31:23 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
16:31:54 <Zakim> -marks
16:32:14 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
16:32:16 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:32:18 <Zakim> -Matt_King
16:33:52 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#references_informative
16:35:36 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#intro_aapi
16:47:50 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:48:12 <MichaelC> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:48:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina_, Cooper
16:48:16 <MichaelC> zakim, list attendees
16:48:16 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, marks, janina_, Michael_Cooper, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, SteveF, Matt_King, James_Craig,
16:48:19 <Zakim> ... Cooper
16:48:22 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:48:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/16-pf-minutes.html MichaelC
16:49:58 <SteveF> SteveF has left #pf
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17:09:06 <Zakim> -Cooper
17:09:09 <Zakim> -janina_
17:09:10 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM has ended
17:09:10 <Zakim> Attendees were Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, marks, janina_, Michael_Cooper, Alexander_Surkov, Joseph_Scheuhammer, SteveF, Matt_King, James_Craig, Cooper
17:12:50 <clown> clown has joined #pf
17:18:01 <clown> MichaelC:  are you still round?  If so, I just discovered that the reference section is not in the src/aria-implemention.html.  Where is it?  I'll keep looking, but if you know, that would speed things up.
17:38:58 <clown> MichaelC:  looks like it's in ".../editors/common/references.html
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