14:57:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
14:57:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-irc
14:57:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tt
14:57:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TTML
14:57:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:57:44 <trackbot> Date: 12 December 2013
14:57:47 <nigel> chair: nigel
14:58:14 <nigel> zakim, agenda+ IANA Registration
14:58:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
14:58:27 <nigel> zakim, agenda+ Actions pending review
14:58:27 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
14:58:36 <nigel> zakin, agenda+ Actions Overdue
14:58:50 <nigel> zakim, agenda+ Due next week actions
14:58:50 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
14:59:05 <nigel> zakim, agenda+ Issues discussed over the last week
14:59:05 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
14:59:13 <nigel> zakim, agenda?
14:59:13 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:59:14 <Zakim> 1. IANA Registration [from nigel]
14:59:14 <Zakim> 2. Actions pending review [from nigel]
14:59:14 <Zakim> 3. Due next week actions [from nigel]
14:59:14 <Zakim> 4. Issues discussed over the last week [from nigel]
15:00:34 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #tt
15:00:39 <tm> tm has joined #tt
15:01:38 <plh> plh has joined #tt
15:05:28 <tmichel> I am coming ...
15:06:17 <pal> pal has joined #tt
15:06:43 <mijordan> mijordan has joined #tt
15:07:22 <tmichel> Zakim, who is here?
15:07:22 <Zakim> SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has not yet started, tmichel
15:07:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see mijordan, pal, plh, tm, tmichel, Zakim, RRSAgent, nigel, trackbot
15:08:00 <nigel> rrsagent, start meeting
15:08:00 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', nigel.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:08:06 <nigel> rrsagent, this is ttwg
15:08:06 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this is ttwg', nigel.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:08:13 <nigel> zakim, this is ttwg
15:08:14 <Zakim> ok, nigel; that matches SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM
15:08:23 <nigel> zakim, agenda?
15:08:23 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:08:24 <Zakim> 1. IANA Registration [from nigel]
15:08:24 <Zakim> 2. Actions pending review [from nigel]
15:08:24 <Zakim> 3. Due next week actions [from nigel]
15:08:24 <Zakim> 4. Issues discussed over the last week [from nigel]
15:08:54 <nigel> regrets+ glenn adams, andreas tai, mike dolan
15:09:50 <nigel> scribeNick: nigel
15:09:56 <pal> i am present
15:10:12 <tmichel> I am here too
15:10:28 <pal> let me know if you would like input on specific item
15:10:52 <nigel> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, +1.617.347.aaaa, Yves, pal
15:10:53 <tmichel> zaki, who is here?
15:11:02 <tmichel> zakim, who is here?
15:11:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, +1.617.347.aaaa, Yves, pal
15:11:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see mijordan, pal, plh, tm, tmichel, Zakim, RRSAgent, nigel, trackbot
15:11:27 <nigel> zakim, yves is tm
15:11:28 <Zakim> +tm; got it
15:11:35 <mijordan> Zakim, 1.617.347.aaaa is mijordan
15:11:35 <Zakim> sorry, mijordan, I do not recognize a party named '1.617.347.aaaa'
15:11:41 <nigel> zakim, ??P1 is me
15:11:41 <Zakim> +nigel; got it
15:11:47 <tmichel> zakim, Yves is tmichel
15:11:47 <Zakim> sorry, tmichel, I do not recognize a party named 'Yves'
15:11:57 <mijordan> Zakim, +1.617.347.aaaa is me
15:11:57 <Zakim> +mijordan; got it
15:12:00 <nigel> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:12:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see nigel, mijordan, tm, pal
15:13:04 <nigel> zakim, next agendum
15:13:04 <Zakim> agendum 1. "IANA Registration" taken up [from nigel]
15:13:43 <nigel> nigel: we did get a response from IANA saying their relevant expert is looking at our request.
15:14:08 <nigel> ... plh do you know more?
15:14:37 <Zakim> +Plh
15:15:27 <nigel> plh: we don't have a timeline for when IANA will respond.
15:15:51 <nigel> ... I'll talk to our main IETF contact, Mark Nottingham to see if he can do something about it.
15:16:28 <nigel> zakim, next agendum
15:16:28 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Actions pending review" taken up [from nigel]
15:16:47 <nigel> topic: Charter
15:17:43 <nigel> plh: I have some non-substantive changes from W3C management on the charter, mostly clarifications e.g. in the scope we can change a should to a must without adding technical requirements to the spec.
15:18:22 <nigel> ... It's important to separate the two use cases of video description and captions, so they're in two tracks. It's out of TTML's scope to specify track switching.
15:19:11 <nigel> nigel: video description might need new features.
15:19:38 <nigel> ... such as pan and fade timing metadata, pronunciation guidance etc.
15:20:02 <nigel> ... especially if the requirement is to support text to speech
15:20:37 <nigel> ... e.g. language models and other technical features.
15:21:05 <nigel> ... We need to have the requirements clear before we make video description a SHALL vs a SHOULD.
15:21:26 <nigel> plh: will feed this back.
15:21:45 <nigel> plh: the VTT milestone will need to take into account the charter approval delay
15:22:22 <nigel> tmichel: also the CR review period is short
15:22:40 <nigel> plh: can write a note to the TTWG to explain the edits
15:23:02 <nigel> pal: what is the process now? do we have a timeline?
15:23:28 <nigel> plh: Unfortunately I can't give a clear answer due to the document license issue.
15:24:09 <nigel> ... The AB discussed the document license this week. The AB did not oppose the idea of applying the HTML experimentation to WebVTT.
15:24:41 <jdsmith> jdsmith has joined #tt
15:24:47 <nigel> ... so David Singer can do this. This means I have to spend time resolving potential issues raised by members.
15:25:25 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:25:28 <nigel> ... At the face to face meeting at TPAC the MS rep was unable to handle this kind of issue.
15:26:47 <nigel> jdsmith: I believe there's been discussion at MS but I don't know the position so far.
15:27:41 <nigel> plh: the other question is for W3 Management: there are considerations in terms of extending the experiment and opening up the possibility for other groups to take the same approach.
15:27:48 <nigel> ... I need to discuss this with the director.
15:28:07 <nigel> ... So this delays the charter submission until at least early January.
15:28:34 <nigel> pal: Let me know if there's any way I can help resolve this because a number of other organisations are looking forward to IMSC and need a draft for referencing purposes.
15:30:01 <nigel> nigel: is it possible to split the TTML issues from the WebVTT issue, or would it be considered poor form by reviewers?
15:30:09 <nigel> plh: I can ask but it would be awkward.
15:30:57 <nigel> pal: If this gets to January and this isn't resolved will there be a point where it is better to split the charter than proceed without a definite date?
15:31:00 <nigel> plh: I believe so yes
15:32:24 <nigel> action-240?
15:32:24 <trackbot> action-240 -- David Singer to Consider the problem of the license change from cg to wg, with the ac and ab and staff -- due 2013-11-22 -- OPEN
15:32:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/240
15:33:07 <nigel> nigel: I need to formally note to this group the query on behalf of David Singer: would existing members of the WG object to the WebVTT rec being published with the CG license?
15:33:21 <nigel> .. not necessarily to answer right now but formally tabled.
15:33:47 <nigel> plh: David would like to give the WG the choice for WebVTT docs as to which license they're published under. He wants a CG-compatible license.
15:33:57 <nigel> pal: Yes but this is a WG not a CG.
15:34:59 <nigel> plh: That's true. The one used by the CG is not used by the HTML experiment (CC-By 3). I'd need to get legal advice on whether it's compatible with the CG license.
15:35:23 <nigel> pal: I'm happy to review an updated proposal, but not to do a lot of work and then find that it changes.
15:35:48 <nigel> plh: I don't think it's going to be acceptable to allow the WG to choose the license freely.
15:36:01 <nigel> Current wording is at: http://www.w3.org/2013/12/timed-text-charter-david.html
15:36:13 <nigel> nigel: this could change.
15:36:40 <nigel> plh: If we adopt the HTML experiment then every WG member can object to the selected license.
15:36:46 <nigel> s/adopt/extend
15:36:48 <plh> http://www.w3.org/2013/09/html-charter.html#documentlicense
15:37:25 <nigel> pal: about to drop off.
15:37:28 <nigel> topic: PAL issues
15:37:31 <nigel> issue-295
15:37:31 <trackbot> issue-295 -- Remove code point restrictions from IMSC -- open
15:37:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/295
15:37:34 <nigel> issue-296
15:37:34 <trackbot> issue-296 -- Remove xml:lang placement restrictions from IMSC -- open
15:37:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/296
15:37:59 <nigel> pal: revision this week is intended to address these two issues. xml:lang constraint removed as discussed at TPAC.
15:38:33 <nigel> ... Character set work: I studied CLDR and the CLDR main set is a near-perfect subset of previous Annex A so I've refactored the document to be a superset of CLDR mainset.
15:38:55 <nigel> ... So all chars in CLDR main sets may be used by authors plus an additional set useful in captioning and subtitle applications.
15:39:16 <nigel> pal: This edit is therefore the proposal.
15:40:03 <nigel> nigel: The main objector (who relaxed his objection) was Glenn so we'll leave these as Pending Review for his input.
15:40:30 <nigel> pal: the next work is to factor in the profiles work when it has been put into TTML2
15:41:30 <nigel> action: pal to add an issue for tracking purposes to refactor IMSC to conform to the content profile specification of TTML2 dependent on TTML2 profile updates.
15:41:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-252 - Add an issue for tracking purposes to refactor imsc to conform to the content profile specification of ttml2 dependent on ttml2 profile updates. [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2013-12-19].
15:41:47 <nigel> pal: expects no substantive change but may need to do some shuffling about.
15:42:07 <nigel> action-220?
15:42:07 <trackbot> action-220 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Investigate actual css behavior further regarding whether line height of individual lines are affected by font size on line as opposed to maximum over paragraph -- due 2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:42:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220
15:43:18 <nigel> pal: can close - next step is to review edits
15:43:21 <nigel> close action-220
15:43:21 <trackbot> Closed action-220.
15:44:17 <nigel> action-243
15:44:17 <trackbot> action-243 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Edit dsinger's proposed wording which captures the intent. -- due 2013-12-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:44:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/243
15:45:15 <nigel> This action should also be reviewed by all prior to closure - leaving at Pending Review specifically to give Glenn Adams the opportunity
15:45:59 <nigel> Topic: Charter
15:46:15 <nigel> action-246
15:46:15 <trackbot> action-246 -- Nigel Megitt to Take deliverables of draft charter to tag for scrutiny -- due 2013-11-28 -- OPEN
15:46:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/246
15:46:28 <nigel> nigel: still open for me, dependent on the revised wording.
15:46:33 <nigel> action-248?
15:46:33 <trackbot> action-248 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Add atsc to the ttml charter -- due 2013-12-12 -- OPEN
15:46:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/248
15:47:37 <nigel> nigel: may be dependent on Mike to give ATSC details or plh can add something himself.
15:48:21 <nigel> plh: Others too?
15:48:31 <nigel> nigel: Yes, following Mark Vickers emails. E.g. HbbTV
15:48:38 <nigel> ... note that BBC is a member of HbbTV
15:49:43 <nigel> nigel: Mark Vickers still has this action.
15:50:04 <nigel> plh: note that anyone can comment during review of the LC
15:50:25 <nigel> action on nigel to send plh updated wording for the EBU paragraph
15:50:25 <trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/users>.
15:50:39 <nigel> action: nigel to send plh updated wording for the EBU paragraph
15:50:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-253 - Send plh updated wording for the ebu paragraph [on Nigel Megitt - due 2013-12-19].
15:51:25 <nigel> zakim, agenda?
15:51:25 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:51:27 <Zakim> 2. Actions pending review [from nigel]
15:51:27 <Zakim> 3. Due next week actions [from nigel]
15:51:27 <Zakim> 4. Issues discussed over the last week [from nigel]
15:51:38 <plh> zakim, move to next agendum
15:51:38 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Due next week actions" taken up [from nigel]
15:51:45 <nigel> zakim, move to agendum 2
15:51:45 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Actions pending review" taken up [from nigel]
15:52:10 <nigel> action-180?
15:52:10 <trackbot> action-180 -- Glenn Adams to Ensure that 10REC errata page is cleared after 10SE is published as REC. -- due 2014-10-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:52:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/180
15:52:28 <nigel> close action-180
15:52:28 <trackbot> Closed action-180.
15:52:36 <nigel> action-203?
15:52:36 <trackbot> action-203 -- Glenn Adams to Investigate 708 border style mapping issues with mike's help -- due 2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:52:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/203
15:53:43 <nigel> action-204
15:53:43 <trackbot> action-204 -- Glenn Adams to Add sideways{left,right} then close issue-159 -- due 2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:53:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/204
15:53:51 <nigel> issue-159?
15:53:53 <trackbot> issue-159 -- Text orientation in I18n script processing -- closed
15:53:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/159
15:54:09 <nigel> close action-204
15:54:09 <trackbot> Closed action-204.
15:54:29 <nigel> action-207
15:54:29 <trackbot> action-207 -- Glenn Adams to Add round-down clarification to "closest" language, see issue-259 -- due 2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:54:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/207
15:55:03 <nigel> issue-259
15:55:03 <trackbot> issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review
15:55:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
15:55:42 <pal> yes
15:56:18 <pal> let me check
15:56:29 <pal> yes
15:56:39 <pal> please carry on while I check
15:57:07 <nigel> action-208?
15:57:07 <trackbot> action-208 -- Glenn Adams to Add note to issue-275 linking to follow-on changelist which changed to 125% and made a note in ttml1 -- due 2013-09-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:57:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/208
15:57:13 <nigel> issue-275
15:57:13 <trackbot> issue-275 -- Improve compatibility with line height 'normal' and CSS/XSL-FO implementations. -- closed
15:57:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/275
15:57:58 <plh> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/11d2d5dcb5a1
15:58:51 <nigel> close action-208
15:58:51 <trackbot> Closed action-208.
15:58:57 <nigel> action-214
15:58:58 <trackbot> action-214 -- Glenn Adams to Review cp008 and consider reformulating the recently added <animate> support to better align -- due 2013-10-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:58:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/214
16:00:48 <nigel> mijordan: may need to have longer to review this.
16:01:12 <nigel> action-219
16:01:12 <trackbot> action-219 -- Glenn Adams to Change to rec in ttml2, and add note to authors indicating that if author wants specific value, then they should specify specific value -- due 2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:01:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/219
16:01:31 <nigel> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/rev/4b056bc52a0d
16:02:44 <pal> yes still looking at 259
16:03:05 <pal> what is 219?
16:03:14 <pal> specific value of what?
16:03:22 <pal> ok good
16:03:58 <pal> so i think Mike Dolan will have input
16:04:05 <pal> recommend not closing
16:04:12 <nigel> nigel: okay will leave at pending review
16:04:24 <nigel> action-220?
16:04:24 <trackbot> action-220 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Investigate actual css behavior further regarding whether line height of individual lines are affected by font size on line as opposed to maximum over paragraph -- due 2013-10-24 -- CLOSED
16:04:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220
16:04:35 <nigel> nigel: we've covered this
16:04:38 <nigel> action-221
16:04:38 <trackbot> action-221 -- Glenn Adams to Double check spec language on css and xsl-fo around line height stacking strategy -- due 2013-10-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:04:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/221
16:04:52 <pal> re: 259, Glenn implemented something close but different than recommended.
16:04:57 <pal> I would like to understand why
16:05:09 <pal> before closing it
16:05:17 <pal> great improvement though
16:05:30 <pal> specifically, farthest from 0 != round-up
16:05:34 <pal> for negative values
16:05:44 <nigel> nigel: we covered 221 already too, related to line height. Leaving at pending review as per 220
16:05:56 <nigel> issue-259?
16:05:56 <trackbot> issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review
16:05:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
16:06:19 <pal> sure
16:07:01 <nigel> nigel: pal was agreeing to my request to add a note to issue-259 stating this small variant to what Glenn implemented.
16:07:21 <nigel> ... i.e. to handle negative values as well as positive ones in round-up
16:07:40 <nigel> action-233?
16:07:40 <trackbot> action-233 -- Glenn Adams to Reach out to CSS WG to understand potential mapping of multi-row-align to CSS -- due 2013-11-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:07:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/233
16:08:29 <mijordan> Unfortunately, I have to break off now.
16:08:49 <nigel> plh: we may not have a quorum to deal with all these actions
16:08:57 <nigel> nigel: okay what can we do?
16:09:07 <nigel> action-164?
16:09:07 <trackbot> action-164 -- Jerry Smith to Investigate interop issues using CSS familyName constructs -- due 2013-12-05 -- OPEN
16:09:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164
16:09:14 <Zakim> -mijordan
16:09:58 <nigel> jdsmith: has talked to Sean and is still investigating. Need Glenn to discuss further.
16:10:29 <nigel> plh: Glenn said that XML already has an escape mechanism so we don't need the CSS one too. The drawback is that you can't just transfer the text value into a CSS parser.
16:10:44 <nigel> jdsmith: I've isolated a contact in MS and will follow up.
16:11:35 <nigel> plh: Without any change an implementation has to de-escape the XML font family name, then use CSS escaping rules to transfer to a CSS parser. There's a burden both ways.
16:12:52 <nigel> plh: there's a bit more code required on authoring tools for anyone generating TTML if we change the current mechanism.
16:14:17 <nigel> nigel: Is this a request to restrict the fontFamily names to those that do not need additional escaping?
16:14:27 <nigel> jdsmith: I just need to check the status on this.
16:14:43 <nigel> action-249?
16:14:43 <trackbot> action-249 -- Glenn Adams to Follow up on action-220, possibly opening new issue -- due 2013-12-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:14:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/249
16:15:30 <nigel> close action-249
16:15:30 <trackbot> Closed action-249.
16:15:47 <nigel> action-141
16:15:47 <trackbot> action-141 -- Nigel Megitt to Call for Action to identify discrepancies in TTML 1.0 on different profiles. -- due 2013-02-14 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:15:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141
16:17:09 <nigel> issue-162
16:17:10 <trackbot> issue-162 -- update standalone profile documents -- open
16:17:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/162
16:19:11 <nigel> http://www.w3.org/mid/CECF5778.163CC%252525nigel.megitt%2540bbc.co.uk
16:19:41 <nigel> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Dec/0036.html
16:21:44 <nigel> plh: happy to accept the initial proposal.
16:21:57 <nigel> ... See if anyone complains!
16:22:04 <nigel> nigel: that would create a problem we couldn't solve.
16:22:30 <nigel> topic: aob?
16:22:46 <pal> I am available
16:22:56 <pal> i would ask Glenn and Mike
16:22:58 <nigel> nigel: Availability for next week?
16:22:58 <pal> directly
16:23:25 <nigel> nigel: I will confirm with Glenn and Mike too
16:24:03 <nigel> nigel: looking ahead I propose not to have a meeting on 26th December or 2nd January
16:24:38 <Zakim> -Plh
16:24:38 <nigel> nigel: next week's meeting will happen unless I notify otherwise
16:24:39 <Zakim> -pal
16:24:39 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:24:42 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:24:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-minutes.html tmichel
16:24:46 <Zakim> -tm
16:24:57 <Zakim> -nigel
16:24:58 <Zakim> SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended
16:24:58 <Zakim> Attendees were pal, tm, nigel, mijordan, Plh, [Microsoft]
16:42:52 <nigel> Present: pal, tm, nigel, mijordan, Plh, jdsmith
16:43:01 <nigel> rrsagent, publish minutes
16:43:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tt-minutes.html nigel