IRC log of tagmem on 2013-12-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:57:58 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
17:57:58 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:58:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tagmem
17:58:44 [plinss]
zakim, this is tag
17:58:45 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; that matches TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
17:59:41 [dka]
trackbot, start meeting
17:59:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:59:45 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TAG
17:59:46 [trackbot]
Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:59:46 [trackbot]
Date: 12 December 2013
17:59:54 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
18:00:01 [Zakim]
18:00:39 [Zakim]
18:01:25 [Zakim]
18:01:36 [dka]
zakim, who is here?
18:01:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TimBL, plinss, JeniT, ht, twirl, dka
18:01:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, JeniT, twirl, dka, ht, timbl, annevk, marcosc, slightlyoff, wycats_, Yves, trackbot, plinss
18:04:32 [slightlyoff]
on the way
18:04:36 [JeniT]
Yves, are you joining us?
18:05:16 [ht]
Call: TAG telcon
18:05:26 [ht]
Chair: Dan Appelquist
18:05:31 [ht]
ScribeNick: ht
18:05:38 [ht]
Scribe: Henry S. Thompson
18:05:49 [ht]
Agenda: aaaa
18:06:04 [ht]
Topic: London (7-9 December) F2F planning
18:06:15 [ht]
DKA: JT, all ready for us?
18:06:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aaaa
18:06:41 [ht]
18:06:41 [Zakim]
18:06:55 [slightlyoff]
Zakim: aaaa is me
18:06:59 [slightlyoff]
I'd be happy to go out
18:07:08 [ht]
JT: Yes, room booked, local arrangements page up and sent out
18:07:15 [slightlyoff]
I feel like arranging lunch has been a burden for organizers so far
18:07:30 [ht]
JT: Go out for lunch, or have things laid on?
18:08:06 [ht]
TBL: Two catered in, one out
18:08:11 [ht]
JT: Will do
18:08:18 [ht]
JT: Light breakfast too?
18:08:25 [ht]
DKA: Yes, please
18:09:03 [ht]
DKA: Developer meet-up -- looking for venue
18:09:24 [ht]
... Hoping to get Google's space, not confirmed
18:09:33 [ht]
... Fallback is GSMA
18:09:44 [ht]
... This is all for evening of the 7th
18:10:06 [ht]
... I'll put this up on Eventbrite
18:10:27 [ht]
s/'s space/ campus/
18:11:08 [ht]
... Dinner out on evening of the 8th
18:11:45 [dka]
18:11:56 [ht]
Topic: Agenda page for January F2F
18:12:14 [slightlyoff]
oh good
18:12:41 [slightlyoff]
can we schedule time to discuss the layering of Web Components at the F2F?
18:12:46 [ht]
DKA: Invited Dominique Hazael Massieux to join us to talk about [commissioning?]
18:12:47 [slightlyoff]
I think it'd be an important thing to review
18:13:17 [ht]
DKA: Hoping to invite Phil Archer to pick up on [topic?]
18:13:30 [JeniT]
s/[topic?]/the Data activity
18:13:36 [slightlyoff]
18:13:40 [slightlyoff]
also, the JSON thing
18:13:49 [slightlyoff]
it's coming! really!
18:13:54 [timbl]
18:13:59 [slightlyoff]
do we want to talk about the JSON thing today?
18:14:03 [slightlyoff]
18:14:05 [ht]
DKA: Yes, good, we'll put the Web Components topic on
18:14:19 [slightlyoff]
do we want to put any of the HTTP2 stuff on the agenda? is there anything new there?
18:14:28 [slightlyoff]
ht: hah, happy to oblige = )
18:14:36 [ht]
TBL: Timing for each day?
18:14:42 [ht]
DKA: 0830 for 0900 start
18:14:47 [ht]
DKA: End at 1730
18:14:49 [slightlyoff]
that's jetlag friendly = )
18:15:15 [slightlyoff]
early mornings are jetlag friendly
18:15:22 [slightlyoff]
if you're coming from the west
18:15:34 [timbl]
18:15:51 [slightlyoff]
guess it depends if you prefer evening or morning flghts? ;-)
18:15:52 [ht]
Topic: Extensible Web Submit
18:15:53 [timbl]
early morning are not friends if you come from the west, they feel horrible
18:15:53 [JeniT]
add capability URLs to agenda
18:16:03 [Zakim]
18:16:08 [timbl]
early mornings are good if you are coming from the E
18:16:27 [slightlyoff]
and we're looking for a bay-area venue?
18:16:27 [Zakim]
18:16:37 [slightlyoff]
do we care that it's in SF proper?
18:16:38 [slightlyoff]
or not?
18:16:44 [slightlyoff]
18:16:49 [ht]
DKA: Still looking for a venue -- date is fixed for 4 April
18:17:05 [ht]
... Downtown, or OK further afield
18:17:15 [ht]
... Suggestions welcome
18:17:20 [slightlyoff]
Google is hard...but I can look
18:17:37 [ht]
Topic: Spec reviews
18:17:50 [slightlyoff]
I'm prepared to talk about push API
18:17:50 [dka]
18:17:59 [dka]
18:18:10 [dka]
18:18:18 [slightlyoff]
ah, yes
18:18:20 [ht]
DKA: Push API, Web Animations, Web Crypto
18:18:32 [dka]
18:18:41 [slightlyoff]
my apologies that I haen't finished something coherent for crypto
18:18:56 [ht]
Topic: Push API
18:18:58 [dka]
Topic: Spec Reviews
18:19:03 [dka]
Topic: Push APIs
18:19:29 [slightlyoff]
18:19:38 [ht]
AR: Push API has some good parts and some less good parts
18:19:45 [ht]
... I'm not happy with the layering aspects
18:20:03 [slightlyoff]
18:20:15 [ht]
AR: Current spec says Navigator gets a Manager attached to it
18:20:20 [slightlyoff]
function registerPush() {
18:20:20 [slightlyoff]
18:20:20 [slightlyoff]
function(value) {
18:20:20 [slightlyoff]
18:20:20 [slightlyoff]
18:20:20 [slightlyoff]
18:20:20 [slightlyoff]
function(reason) {alert("darn! "+ reason );}
18:20:20 [slightlyoff]
18:20:21 [slightlyoff]
18:20:50 [ht]
AR: Good promise-based registration
18:21:02 [ht]
AR: Why is this different from ??
18:21:13 [ht]
AR: Why register for multiple servers
18:21:46 [slightlyoff]
if (navigator.hasPendingMessages("push")) {
18:21:46 [slightlyoff]
// do any special pre-processing before push messages are delivered
18:21:46 [slightlyoff]
18:21:46 [slightlyoff]
last_version = null; // initialize last message version
18:21:46 [slightlyoff]
navigator.setMessageHandler("push", gotPush);
18:21:46 [slightlyoff]
navigator.setMessageHandler("push-register", reRegisterPush);
18:21:53 [dka]
AR: worst part of API is this.
18:22:25 [dka]
AR: setmessagehandler seems to suggest you'll be pushing a javascript message without a specific context.
18:23:00 [dka]
... who wants this - in a world where if you close the tab you can't get push messages. Or is the idea that when the tab is reawakened you now get the push messages? And if so why are these not events just sent to the document?
18:23:08 [dka]
AR: The use case isn't particularly clear.
18:23:15 [ht]
AR: These should just be events, instead of messages
18:24:18 [ht]
AR: I think a good chunk of this needs to be events-based, rather than message delivery
18:24:44 [ht]
SK: I agree, I had the same difficulty figuring out the context/background assumptions
18:24:49 [dka]
Suggest a way forward here: Alex can you capture your thoughts into the document, then send them over to the working group chairs and spec editors...
18:25:07 [ht]
SK: I think it's premature to send a review until these things are clear
18:25:35 [slightlyoff]
I like this plan
18:25:56 [ht]
DKA: So we need to fold what AR said into SK's document ASAP, then send some kind of notification of our higher-level concerns (as opposed to a detailed review).
18:26:25 [ht]
s/)./) to the WG, and ask them to join us on a call soon./
18:26:39 [slightlyoff]
18:26:46 [ht]
AR: Right, doc. as it stands is not ready for an implementer to read.
18:27:00 [ht]
DKA: We do have one call scheduled before the end of the year
18:27:01 [slightlyoff]
happy to draft something that that repo today to outline areas for discussion
18:27:24 [ht]
DKA: I will try to line them up for 19 December if we can move that fast
18:27:29 [ht]
18:27:33 [dka]
18:27:35 [slightlyoff]
SGTM, I can be there on the 19th
18:27:43 [ht]
SK: +1
18:27:58 [plinss]
18:28:08 [slightlyoff]
yep, will do
18:28:13 [ht]
DKA: First step is to get AR's comments into the feedback document
18:28:21 [slightlyoff]
apologies for having delayed this discussion until this week
18:28:35 [ht]
DKA: Let me know when that's done, and then I'll get in touch with the editors
18:28:51 [ht]
Topic: Web Animation
18:28:51 [dka]
Topic: Web Animations Review
18:29:01 [ht]
SK: Comments, anyone?
18:29:16 [ht]
AR: Where are they in the Process? Are they at Last Call?
18:29:41 [ht]
PL: Still [an ordinary] WD
18:29:45 [slightlyoff]
18:30:02 [Yves]
still regular WD, not even LC
18:30:03 [ht]
DKA: SK has raised some issues in his review [see above]
18:30:20 [ht]
... Mostly not major, but levels of abstraction could be
18:30:46 [ht]
SK: I didn't find any major issues, I thought the spec was very good
18:31:04 [ht]
SK: There are related contentious issues, and some weird behaviours are suggested
18:31:12 [slightlyoff]
there are some real naming issues (the shed should be green!): "SeqGroup", "ParGroup", etc.
18:31:23 [ht]
SK: It's a very complicated spec, we really need another reviewer
18:31:48 [ht]
DKA: Can someone volunteer to spend the time
18:31:51 [slightlyoff]
I should...I've been asked to look at it from the Google side as well
18:31:53 [Zakim]
18:32:02 [ht]
PL: I already volunteered, will do as soon as I can
18:32:15 [Zakim]
18:32:20 [slightlyoff]
at least everything has constructors = )
18:32:50 [ht]
DKA: It would be good to finish this off by the F2F
18:33:02 [slightlyoff]
most of the Google folks are in Sydney
18:33:04 [ht]
... And maybe have a live feedback session via IRC/Voice/...
18:33:36 [slightlyoff]
Tab's usually PST
18:33:46 [ht]
PL: Coming from the FX task force [?], mostly SVG input latterly
18:34:23 [ht]
PL: Timezones not v. friendly
18:34:42 [ht]
Topic: Web Crypto
18:34:50 [ht]
DKA: AR, ready to talk about this yet?
18:35:03 [ht]
DKA: There's been a lot of work going on
18:35:13 [ht]
AR: Group has a lot of challenges
18:35:18 [ht]
... Particularly wrt scope
18:35:47 [ht]
AR: Hard to manage many use-cases driving into every discussion
18:36:04 [ht]
AR: Trying to decide about low- vs. high-level API
18:36:14 [ht]
AR: Currently aiming for low-level
18:36:30 [ht]
AR: Looking at streams vs. promises, worried about churn in the promises spec
18:37:01 [ht]
AR: Question about including algorithms into discussion of APIs/implementations
18:37:07 [ht]
AR: Im
18:37:16 [ht]
s/Im/I'm not too worried about the overall API/
18:37:31 [ht]
AR: I think we may need to get involved wrt layering
18:37:49 [ht]
AR: So consider secure vs. insecure keys
18:38:23 [ht]
AR: There's a use-case challenge there which hasn't been fully recognized
18:39:22 [ht]
AR: How can you talk about embedding MD5 in Javascript, when Javascript strings aren't byte arrays, for example, of layering.
18:39:37 [dka]
Does it make sense to schedule some f2f time in London on this with the wg chair Virginie?
18:39:45 [ht]
TBL: A well-defined coercion from string to bytes, would that help?
18:39:58 [ht]
AR: Absolutely -- TAG could usefully push for this
18:40:11 [ht]
TBL: From Crypto to TC39?
18:40:21 [ht]
AR: Probably better from the TAG
18:40:55 [slightlyoff]
18:41:00 [ht]
DKA: Virginie, WG Chair of Crypto, is in France, perhaps could come to F2F to talk about this, and on Security on the Web topic
18:42:01 [ht]
DKA: Other topics?
18:42:24 [timbl]
got the dates fior ioetf london
18:42:41 [ht]
DKA: Heads up wrt IETF in London, with [special event] ahead
18:42:56 [dka]
18:42:58 [timbl]
March 2-7, 2014
18:43:02 [timbl]
is ietf
18:43:11 [ht]
s/[special event]/STRINT workshop/
18:43:41 [ht]
DKA: Strengthening the Internet against Prevasive Monitoring
18:44:30 [ht]
DKA: Feeds into HTTP-2 discussion of TLS
18:45:02 [ht]
DKA: Adjourned
18:45:06 [slightlyoff]
18:45:13 [Zakim]
18:45:15 [Zakim]
18:45:18 [Zakim]
- +1.650.253.aaaa
18:45:20 [Zakim]
18:45:22 [Zakim]
18:45:23 [Zakim]
18:45:33 [Zakim]
18:46:34 [Zakim]
18:46:35 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:46:35 [Zakim]
Attendees were TimBL, plinss, JeniT, ht, twirl, dka, +1.650.253.aaaa, Yves
18:46:37 [ht]
s/Agenda: aaaa/F2F logistics; F2F planning; Developer meet-up status; Spec reviews: Push API, Animation, Web Crypto/
18:46:49 [ht]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:46:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ht
18:47:06 [ht]
rrsagent, make minutes world-visible
18:47:06 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-visible', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:47:16 [ht]
rrsagent, make minutes visible
18:47:16 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes visible', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:47:38 [ht]
rrsagent, make minutes world-readable
18:47:38 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-readable', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:48:09 [plinss]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:48:39 [ht]
rrsagent, bye
18:48:39 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items