14:23:26 RRSAgent has joined #dap 14:23:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-dap-irc 14:23:28 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:23:28 Zakim has joined #dap 14:23:30 Zakim, this will be DAP 14:23:30 ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 37 minutes 14:23:31 Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference 14:23:31 Date: 12 December 2013 14:33:34 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Dec/0024.html 14:33:49 fjh has changed the topic to: dap 3279 ; agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Dec/0024.html 14:34:10 Chair: Frederick_Hirsch 14:34:18 Present + Frederick_Hirsch 14:34:33 Present+ Frederick_Hirsch 14:34:40 s/Present + Frederick_Hirsch// 14:34:48 ScribeNick: fjh 14:35:04 Regrets+ Josh_Soref 14:35:13 Topic: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection, announcements 14:35:18 rrsagent, generate minutes 14:35:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-dap-minutes.html fjh 14:46:24 lgombos has joined #dap 14:47:27 lgombos has joined #dap 14:57:33 Cathy has joined #dap 14:58:15 UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started 14:58:22 +??P4 14:58:45 Present+ Mats_Wichmann 14:59:01 zakim, ??P4 is mats 14:59:01 +mats; got it 14:59:10 zakim, ??P4 is mats 14:59:10 I already had ??P4 as mats, mats 14:59:33 +[IPcaller] 14:59:40 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 14:59:40 +fjh; got it 14:59:55 zakim, who is here? 14:59:55 On the phone I see mats, fjh 14:59:56 On IRC I see Cathy, lgombos, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, mats, dom, anssik, Josh_Soref, slightlyoff, trackbot, mounir 15:02:18 +??P19 15:02:23 Zakim, ??P19 is me 15:02:23 +dom; got it 15:02:25 +??P24 15:02:28 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 15:02:34 +Cathy 15:02:38 zakim, ??P24 is me 15:02:38 +anssik; got it 15:02:48 Present+ Cathy_Chan 15:03:02 Zakim, ??P24 is anssik 15:03:02 I already had ??P24 as anssik, dom 15:03:09 Zakim, mute dom 15:03:09 dom should now be muted 15:03:29 Zakim, unmute me 15:03:29 dom should no longer be muted 15:03:45 Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux 15:03:53 zakim, who is here? 15:03:54 On the phone I see mats, fjh, dom, anssik, Cathy 15:03:54 On IRC I see Cathy, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, mats, dom, anssik, Josh_Soref, slightlyoff, trackbot, mounir 15:04:29 Welcome new members, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Dec/0023.html 15:05:24 fjh: new member Ningxin interested in Media Capture , http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Dec/0025.html 15:05:48 anssik: yes he is interested in media capture and stream 15:06:23 fjh: will need to check on call schedule 15:06:26 Zakim, unmute me 15:06:26 dom was not muted, dom 15:06:28 zakim, who is here? 15:06:28 On the phone I see mats, fjh, dom, anssik, Cathy 15:06:29 On IRC I see Cathy, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, mats, dom, anssik, Josh_Soref, slightlyoff, trackbot, mounir 15:06:30 Zakim, unmute dom 15:06:31 dom was not muted, dom 15:07:04 -dom 15:07:31 +??P35 15:07:39 Zakim, ??P35 is me 15:07:39 +dom; got it 15:08:56 dom: should point him to media capture task force list 15:09:03 fjh: i did this in the welcome message 15:09:07 jcdufourd has joined #dap 15:09:24 … will send another message 15:10:07 fjh: Call scheduled for next week 19 December; no teleconferences 26 Dec or 2 Jan, see http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/minutes.html#upcoming-teleconferences 15:10:25 Topic: Minutes approval 15:10:32 Approve minutes from 21 November 2013 15:10:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Nov/att-0030/minutes-2013-11-21.html 15:10:39 RESOLUTION: Minutes from 21 November 2013 are approved 15:10:46 Topic: Network Service Discovery 15:10:55 fjh: Overview (with Rich) for Privacy Interest Group (PING) scheduled at next PING teleconference, 30 January 2014 9 am PT/noon ET, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-privacy/2013OctDec/0036.html 15:11:09 … we will start with overview to PING followed by their privacy review (offline) 15:11:26 +gmandyam 15:12:05 cathy: will need to give regrets for the PING call due to vacation 15:12:28 fjh: WebAppSec call to be scheduled, http://www.w3.org/2011/webappsec/ 15:12:53 zakim, who is here? 15:12:53 On the phone I see mats, fjh, anssik, Cathy, dom, gmandyam 15:12:54 On IRC I see jcdufourd, Cathy, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, mats, dom, anssik, Josh_Soref, slightlyoff, trackbot, mounir 15:13:14 fjh: not sure we can do more on this topic until we have list discussion and/or call participation 15:13:14 cathy: agree 15:13:33 Topic: Editor Updates 15:13:40 ACTION-671? 15:13:40 ACTION-671 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Prepare shelved note publications after tpac http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-device-apis/2013nov/0010.html -- due 2013-11-14 -- OPEN 15:13:40 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/671 15:13:58 fjh: Publishing Moratorium: 8 December 2013 through 1 January 2014, see wiki http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/Main_Page#Administrativia 15:15:14 … would be good to prepare documents in advance, assuming you have work time, could plan to publish 9 January 15:15:26 anssik: this works, I can prepare the documents 15:15:48 Topic: Network Information API 15:15:59 Please continue discussion on list! 15:16:00 gmandyam_ has joined #dap 15:16:00 Chrome Apps discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Dec/0005.html 15:16:01 Mozilla discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Dec/0003.html 15:16:03 Abstraction proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Dec/0007.html (Anssi) 15:16:04 Adaptor proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Dec/0009.html (Josh) 15:16:05 Use Cases https://github.com/w3c-webmob/netinfo/ (Marcos) 15:16:06 Getting the correct problem statement: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Dec/0017.html (Tobie) 15:16:25 -> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/netinfo Use case and requirements for network information 15:17:22 fjh: suggest looking at these various items, especially use cases and Tobie's message 15:17:35 dom: work marcos is doing is useful related to use cases 15:17:59 lgombos has joined #dap 15:18:05 fjh: this is a fyi, please take a look and contribute on the list 15:18:16 anssi: agree to need for use cases 15:18:29 … lots of discussion 15:18:36 … web mob provides good use cases 15:18:45 q+ 15:18:45 fjh: discussion goes off in various directions 15:19:04 anssi: need stability over time, so if we say wifi now, maybe something different in the future 15:19:26 … my abstracting proposal offers future-proofing, but a tradeoff 15:19:53 Present+ Giri_Mandyam 15:20:39 ack gmandyam 15:21:21 gmandyman: need to remember hardware dependencies, e.g. a good bandwidth estimate cannot come out of the browser? 15:21:39 … stuff like Tobie talks about, batching and so on, are already addressed in mobile 15:22:20 … even with use cases need to consider target hardware platform, need to know which optimizations are possible 15:23:15 fjh: need to understand system and context, hard with privacy or optimizations to write specs in isolation for modules without considering integration into system 15:23:32 gmandyam: not always browser you are integrating into 15:23:53 fjh: lets continue this discussion on the list 15:24:52 … lets not lose your proposal and concerns on the list Anssi 15:25:03 anssik: need to make future proofing a requirement 15:25:32 … native apps depend on wifi availability, typically fastest and free 15:26:02 Topic: Testing 15:26:12 fjh: any updates on testing? 15:26:16 anssik: none from me 15:26:43 Topic: Issue Review 15:27:03 fjh: we can defer discussion of Network Service Discovery and Network Information API issues to list 15:27:10 … what about vibration issues 15:27:25 ISSUE-149? 15:27:25 ISSUE-149 -- handling of long vibration list - truncate or no vibration at all -- open 15:27:25 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/149 15:27:32 ISSUE-150? 15:27:32 ISSUE-150 -- Should vibration be additive when multiple instances, e.g. iframes -- open 15:27:32 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/150 15:27:38 ISSUE-156? 15:27:38 ISSUE-156 -- add the [Clamp] attribute to the argument of the vibrate method -- open 15:27:38 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/156 15:28:14 fjh: we had a problem with clamp, right 15:28:24 anssi: keyword not in WebIDL spec table yet 15:28:31 … still contoversial 15:28:58 ISSUE-156: defer until decision made for WebIDL spec regarding support for this, still not supported 15:28:58 Notes added to ISSUE-156 add the [Clamp] attribute to the argument of the vibrate method. 15:29:33 Re: Network Information. Qualcomm solution for TCP socket management in aggregate can be found at http://www.qualcomm.com/research/projects/traffic-management. My point was that use cases are not enough - any API that is designed independent of HW optimizations could result in a degradation in performance. 15:30:54 fjh: I'll review the vibration issues and send message to the list regarding status if needed 15:31:11 ACTION: fjh to review status of vibration issues 15:31:12 Created ACTION-672 - Review status of vibration issues [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2013-12-19]. 15:31:17 Topic: Action review 15:31:40 ACTION-523? 15:31:40 ACTION-523 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Work on test cases for battery, vibration, and HTML Media Capture -- due 2012-08-31 -- OPEN 15:31:40 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/523 15:32:25 anssik: need to check status on this with QA team, should have test suite feature complete, will check 15:32:31 ACTION-645? 15:32:31 ACTION-645 -- Frederick Hirsch to Share Network Service Discovery editors draft with PING -- due 2013-07-31 -- OPEN 15:32:31 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/645 15:32:43 fjh: did this and scheduled meeting 15:32:47 close ACTION-645 15:32:47 Closed ACTION-645. 15:32:53 ACTION-654? 15:32:53 ACTION-654 -- Jean-Claude Dufourd to Propose text for network service discovery to define wildcard api and feature detection -- due 2013-09-11 -- OPEN 15:32:53 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/654 15:33:14 cathy: proposal on list 15:33:31 close ACTION-654 15:33:31 Closed ACTION-654. 15:33:36 ACTION-657? 15:33:36 ACTION-657 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Revise battery tests for idlharness, find qa person to help -- due 2013-09-11 -- OPEN 15:33:36 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/657 15:34:12 anssi: will check status, should be done 15:34:29 ACTION-654: link to JCD's proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Oct/0157.html 15:34:29 Notes added to ACTION-654 Propose text for network service discovery to define wildcard api and feature detection. 15:34:32 https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/battery-status 15:34:48 ACTION-657: done, see https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/battery-status 15:34:48 Notes added to ACTION-657 Revise battery tests for idlharness, find qa person to help. 15:34:56 close ACTION-657 15:34:56 Closed ACTION-657. 15:35:29 ACTION-660? 15:35:29 ACTION-660 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Determine interest in progressing network information api or not -- due 2013-09-26 -- OPEN 15:35:29 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/660 15:36:15 anssik: discussion on list has been good, some are spending time on this on list 15:38:56 fjh: DAP should not progress spec until we have implementation support and an idea of where to go, but we should be active on list discussing also with Google App list, web mob, and mozilla discussion etc 15:39:06 anssik: thanks to web mob for the work 15:39:53 anssik: have done internal discussion, see value in API but want to start with use cases 15:40:16 ACTION-660: can see value in the API but want to start with use cases 15:40:16 Notes added to ACTION-660 Determine interest in progressing network information api or not. 15:40:21 close ACTION-660 15:40:21 Closed ACTION-660. 15:40:52 gmandyam: in sysapps wg working on connection API, should we see how that progresses first and then work on network information API? 15:41:20 anssik: sys apps api seems to be low level api like josh is proposing and I think DAP API should be more abstract, that might be a useful split 15:41:28 s/sys apps/sysapps/ 15:41:46 … seems to reflect charters of the groups 15:42:11 fjh: need to see how this is reflected in the DAP charter 15:42:46 fjh: any idea of the sys apps time frame for that API? 15:42:51 s/sys apps/sysapps/ 15:43:20 anssik: not clear, there are higher priority items, needs work 15:43:29 … maybe should spec both and see which gets used 15:44:31 fjh: should include the various discussion lists but maybe a draft makes it easier to get feedback 15:44:40 ACTION-665? 15:44:40 ACTION-665 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Update vibration draft per action-652 -- due 2013-10-17 -- OPEN 15:44:40 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/665 15:44:47 ACTION-652? 15:44:47 ACTION-652 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Make proposal on list regarding multiple vibration api invocations in frames for vibration -- due 2013-09-11 -- CLOSED 15:44:47 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/652 15:45:30 anssik: updated algorithm 15:45:31 -dom 15:45:40 close ACTION-665 15:45:40 Closed ACTION-665. 15:45:50 ACTION--666? 15:45:59 ACTION-666? 15:45:59 ACTION-666 -- Giridhar Mandyam to Check with internal implementers whether vibration api is consistent with chip capabilities -- due 2013-10-17 -- OPEN 15:45:59 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/666 15:46:19 gmandyam: still working on this 15:46:45 … will post to the list after the holidays 15:46:52 ACTION-671? 15:46:53 ACTION-671 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Prepare shelved note publications after tpac http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-device-apis/2013nov/0010.html -- due 2013-11-14 -- OPEN 15:46:53 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/671 15:47:03 Topic: Other Business 15:47:04 none 15:47:40 fjh: may cancel the call next week unless we have new discussion items; please share status updates on the list 15:47:45 the link in ACTION-671 doesn't work 15:48:58 fjh: please share Note publication drafts on list for review before publication, suggest creating template, reviewing and then updating 15:49:33 http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-acss 15:49:43 email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Nov/0023.html 15:50:49 language for shelving, http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/calendar/ 15:51:07 "The Device APIs Working Group is currently not pursuing the approach outlined in this draft, so it should be considered historical. Please treat this document with caution and do not reference it or use it as the basis for implementation. The domain covered by this document is still within the scope of the Working Group as defined in its Charter. The 15:51:07 Working Group may pursue an alternative API design that is based on the current Web browser security model." 15:51:43 perhaps leave out "The Working Group may pursue an alternative API design that is based on the current Web browser security model" 15:51:47 "Work on this document has been discontinued and it should not be referenced or used as a basis for implementation." instead of "This document has been superseded." 15:52:35 … new paragraph: This is a historical document. The domain covered by this document is still within the scope of the Working Group as defined in its Charter." 15:53:55 fjh: please share template with me, I can review and then we can go forward 15:54:45 this seems to be right link for ACTION-671, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2013Nov/0010.html 15:55:28 -gmandyam 15:55:29 -mats 15:55:31 -Cathy 15:55:33 -anssik 15:55:57 fjh: if we do not have a call next week have a merry Christmas or a good holiday 15:56:02 Topic: Adjourn 15:56:15 s/ACTION--666?// 15:56:19 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:56:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:57:13 s/and stream/and streams/ 15:57:48 s/followed by their privacy review (offline)/. They will review after the call./ 15:58:22 s/web mob/webmob/g 15:59:15 s;merry Christmas or a good holiday;Merry Christmas/good holiday; 15:59:22 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:59:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-dap-minutes.html fjh 16:00:00 -fjh 16:00:01 UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended 16:00:01 Attendees were mats, fjh, dom, Cathy, anssik, gmandyam 17:24:37 dom_ has joined #dap 17:28:00 Zakim has left #dap 18:49:21 lgombos has joined #dap 18:49:31 lgombos has joined #dap