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16:33:28 <glazou> glazou has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Dec/0200.html
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16:33:55 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
16:33:55 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
16:34:01 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:56:06 <dael> scribenick: dael
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16:56:35 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:56:36 <Zakim> +dael
16:56:51 <Zakim> +??P3
16:56:55 <glazou> Zakim, ??P3 is me
16:56:56 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:57:02 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:57:27 <glazou> Zakim, mute me
16:57:27 <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
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16:58:03 <Zakim> +dauwhe
16:58:21 <Zakim> +??P6
16:58:36 <krit> Zakim, P6 is me
16:58:36 <Zakim> sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'
16:58:40 <glazou> Zakim, ??P6 is krit
16:58:40 <Zakim> +krit; got it
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16:58:57 <krit> glazou: thanks
16:59:04 <glazou> np
16:59:25 <Zakim> +SylvaIng
16:59:35 <Zakim> +plinss
17:00:36 <Zakim> +??P40
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17:00:42 <antonp> Zakim, P40 is me
17:00:42 <Zakim> sorry, antonp, I do not recognize a party named 'P40'
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17:00:54 <Zakim> +??P43
17:00:58 <Zakim> +Plh
17:01:07 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P43 is me
17:01:08 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
17:01:10 <antonp> Zakim, ??P40 is me
17:01:13 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
17:01:17 <SimonSapin> … I think
17:01:18 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:01:21 <Zakim> +smfr
17:01:59 <Zakim> +SteveZ
17:02:01 <florian> florian has joined #css
17:02:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:02:39 <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
17:02:52 <Zakim> +florian; got it
17:03:05 <Zakim> +cabanier
17:03:29 <Zakim> +Bert
17:03:32 <Zakim> +Glenn
17:03:37 <Zakim> +Stearns
17:03:51 <dael_> I hope that I'm not cursed to connectivity issues today.  I'll yell if I drop...again.
17:04:37 <Zakim> +??P66
17:05:13 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
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17:05:38 <dael_> plinss Let's get started
17:05:45 <dael_> plh: Any additional items?
17:05:55 <dael_> s/plh/pliniss
17:06:11 <Zakim> +ChrisL
17:06:13 <dael_> ???: Please put your name for registration
17:06:21 <dael_> ...: We need to issue badges so you can get in
17:06:23 <plh> s/???/Sylvain/
17:06:30 <dael_> ...: The earlier a complete count the better
17:06:42 <dael_> plinss: Good time to make travel arrangements
17:06:47 <dael_> Tpoic: Sept F2F
17:06:49 <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
17:06:49 <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
17:06:57 <dael_> s/tpoic/topic
17:07:04 <Zakim> +dbaron
17:07:12 <dael_> SteveZ: I believe the AB meeting is the 16-17th Sept
17:07:21 <dael_> SteveZ: I think Bert was offering to host
17:07:35 <dael_> SteveZ: Optimially if it was near those dates I would only need one trip
17:07:41 <Zakim> +fantasai
17:07:52 <dael_> bert: I would prefer after
17:07:57 <glazou> s/bert/krit
17:07:59 <dael_> plinss: Any other pref?
17:08:04 <glazou> glazou: me too
17:08:20 <dael_> sylvaing: With TPAC after, it was inconvenient that summer, autumn, and winter were close
17:08:33 <Bert> (TPAC is Oct 27-31)
17:08:33 <dael_> plinss: That is true
17:08:44 <dael_> plinss: Week of 22nd would be 4 weeks before
17:08:54 <dael_> SteveZ: If we did the week before that would be okay
17:09:06 <krit> s/SteveZ/krit/
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17:09:13 <dael_> SteveZ: That's fine with me
17:09:21 <dael_> plinss: Bert, any these dates a problem?
17:09:51 <dael_> ???: TPAC is on Halloween so much be Oct
17:09:56 <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
17:09:58 <dael_> plinss: So week of 8-10?
17:10:04 <krit> s/???/krit/
17:10:09 <dael_> plinss: That work for everyone?
17:10:20 <dael_> ChrisL: That's fine for me
17:10:33 <dael_> krit: If we move further from TPAC it's better
17:10:47 <dael_> plinss: Okay, unless we hear other complaints soon, let's call it Sept 8-10
17:10:55 <krit> s/krit/florian/
17:10:58 <glazou> Zakim, mute me
17:10:58 <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
17:11:01 <dael_> Topics: Compositing and Blending
17:11:17 <dael_> cabanier: I got comments from James Robinson
17:11:27 <dael_> ..: He's asking for something that doesn't require spec changes
17:11:35 <dael_> ...: Should I wait another week to ask for CR?
17:11:41 <dael_> ...: Or does that not stop it?
17:11:49 <dael_> ???: It's obviously a judgement call.
17:12:01 <dael_> ...: If it's ongoing to produce sig. changes you should wait
17:12:08 <dael_> ...: If not you can push it to later
17:12:14 <dael_> cabanier: He's asking for something in the spec
17:12:20 <dael_> ???: It's just a clarification your' fine
17:12:29 <dael_> cabanier: put in disp. of commments?
17:12:32 <dael_> ???: Yes
17:12:35 <plinss> s/???/ChrisL/
17:12:43 <dael_> ChrisL: Is there something we can look at?
17:12:48 <dael_> cabanier: Yes, I'll paste in IRC
17:12:54 <cabanier> doc: http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/issues-lc-2013.html
17:13:18 <dael_> ChrisL: One comment, introduce some classes there with colors
17:13:32 <dael_> ...: So someone can see green with agreement etc.  That makes it easier
17:13:57 <dael_> ...: You should distinguish between where everyone agreed and everyone talked about it and the person is happy even if they didn't get want the wanted
17:13:57 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-cr-2012
17:14:02 <dael_> cabanier: Okay.
17:14:08 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/bin/issuegen.pl
17:14:12 <dael_> fantasai: Above is an example of a color codded one
17:14:23 <dael_> fantasai: And 2nd is a template to generate from text
17:14:33 <dael_> cabanier: That's handy
17:14:47 <dael_> fantasai: If you do this is spits out instructions and it'll create the HTML
17:14:57 <dael_> ...: There's others you can use, this is the one I wrote
17:15:09 <dael_> cabanier: I was surprised when Cameron told me I had to register
17:15:20 <dael_> cabanier: I'll update.
17:15:27 <dbaron> I'm a little concerned about the number of parts of the spec marked non-normative.
17:15:29 <dael_> ...: Should I wait for CR is it it fine?
17:15:41 <dael_> plinss: AS long as it's updated for the spec call I think it's okay
17:15:48 <dael_> cabanier: The comments from James will be in there
17:16:13 <dael_> ???: I find the spec confusing b/c it has a lot but doesn't provide new properties
17:16:25 <dael_> ...: for example it has a section on knockout groups, but it doesn't have examples
17:16:31 <krit> s/???/smfr/
17:16:40 <dael_> ...: It's very confusing because it has a long section on theroery and I don't know why it's relevent
17:16:48 <dael_> cabanier: It has a lot of normative text
17:17:00 <dbaron> There are a bunch of references to a 'knockout' keyword that's no longer in the draft
17:17:10 <dael_> smfr: I think tech information is fine, they just want to know if they can use it now, use it later, what's being developed
17:17:18 <dael_> ...: It's explaining what it's for
17:17:31 <dael_> ???: Does this need knock-out groups?
17:17:41 <dael_> ???: There isn't an SVG for this, right?
17:17:48 <dael_> cabanier: I don't think anyone impl that
17:17:48 <krit> s/???/smfr/
17:17:55 <dael_> smfr: This loks theroretical
17:18:01 <dael_> ...: I think it should stay
17:18:07 <dauwhe> s/theroery/theory/
17:18:15 <dauwhe> s/loks/looks/
17:18:19 <dael_> dirk: I don't think so.  I think there's a bunch of ref. to something that as there before.
17:18:27 <dael_> smfr: Is that for level 2?
17:18:39 <krit> s/dirk/dbaron/
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17:18:49 <dael_> smfr: knock-out we've tried for some time, but if it's to level 2 that's okay
17:19:06 <dael_> ???: I thiink there's 2 options.  1 we remove knock-out.  2 we make clear which isn't covered
17:19:16 <krit> s/???/sgalineau/
17:19:19 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:19:22 <dael_> cabanier: I think we can remove things not covered.  I think it can be done in CR
17:19:37 <dael_> cabanier: That 2nd section is informative about how it could
17:19:52 <dael_> smfr: We're removing things not covered so it's confucsing
17:20:02 <dael_> ???: And having a long normative section is dangerious
17:20:09 <dael_> dirk: I think it's not clear what's non-normative
17:20:13 <krit> s/???/smfr/
17:20:15 <krit> s/dirk/dbaron/
17:20:28 <dael_> ...: Does this section mean what is non normative.  Like is 5 non-normative, but 5.1 isn't?
17:20:36 <dael_> cabanier: I should be in the header
17:20:42 <dael_> smfr: It should be an appendix
17:20:56 <smfr> s/smfr/sgalineau
17:21:03 <dael_> dirk: To be clear sections 5, 8, 9, 10 and marked as normative
17:21:05 <krit> s/dirk/dbaron/
17:21:26 <dael_> dbaron: Does that mean section s 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 don't define anything but property syntax
17:21:27 <dbaron> 5,6,7,8,9,10
17:21:47 <dael_> cabanier: We discussed this and at the time only to prop. were supposed to be marked as non-normative
17:21:52 <dael_> dbaron: Who told you that?
17:21:58 <dael_> cabanier: I don't remember.  I can look.
17:22:15 <dael_> plinss: Unless there's a good reason, that's the sort of thing that should be normative
17:22:32 <dael_> ...: You shouldn't have someone impl a blend mode and get diff results
17:22:48 <dael_> smfr: sounds like that should change in the spec.  It's important
17:23:00 <dael_> plinss: Are we in agreement those sections should be normative?
17:23:13 <dael_> ???: We should make it normative in a later version
17:23:29 <dael_> plinss: I think we agreeed earlier that items not referenced should move to the next level
17:23:45 <dael_> plinss: We should shift text from not normative to normative before CR
17:24:03 <dael_> plinss: Do we want to see these changes and then revist going to CR or resolve and see it later
17:24:25 <dael_> smfr: I think it was clear, but some people found it confusing so should we wait to see if this makes it less confusing?
17:24:39 <dael_> ???: This is something we're going to remove is CR, so why not do it now?
17:24:45 <dael_> cabanier: We can do it next week
17:24:54 <dael_> ???: OTherwise it looks like we're removing for no reason
17:25:08 <dael_> cabanier: I wanted to be less confusing in LC.  I think I'll make the changes and disc. next week
17:25:22 <dael_> plinss: Agreed.  The only problem is editing functionality
17:25:30 <dael_> ???: We're not changing any behaviour
17:25:44 <dael_> plinss: So you have your orders for changes and we'll revist next week
17:25:50 <dael_> Topic: Masking to CR
17:25:58 <dael_> krit: I got comments a few hours ago
17:26:12 <dael_> krit: I got fantasai comments
17:26:28 <dael_> ...: Her comments will delay CR, so I'd like to discuss on ML
17:26:38 <dael_> ...: Since her requests are changing behaviour and names
17:26:45 <dael_> plinss: So you want that before CR?
17:26:47 <dael_> krit: Yes
17:26:55 <dael_> plinss: Let us know when you want to revisit
17:27:02 <dael_> Topic: WebVTT
17:27:14 <dael_> plinss: Everyone should have reviewed for feedback
17:27:29 <dael_> dirk: I promised to review
17:27:34 <dbaron> s/dirk/Bert/
17:27:35 <dael_> krit: I have some comments
17:27:41 <dael_> Sorry!
17:27:43 <dbaron> s/krit/ChrisL/
17:27:50 <ChrisL> I have some too, dirk go first
17:28:00 <dael_> plinss: I heard one person ask for time and one person had feedback
17:28:04 <dael_> ChrisL: I had a little
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17:28:49 <ChrisL> WebVTT specifies certain proerties must be set to particular values,
17:28:50 <dael> ...: There's no object model and if there's and nonsense or disllowed and I'll tell if they're applied or not
17:28:50 <ChrisL> and lists the properties that must apply (the others must be ignored).
17:28:57 <ChrisL> Is it correct that there is no DOM interface to get at the styling
17:28:58 <ChrisL> information, so the only way to see what properties are applied is if
17:28:58 <ChrisL> they have a particular visual effect?
17:29:10 <dael> plinss: Do you have a suggestion for a better way to phrase that?
17:29:18 <dael> ChrisL: I think I'm looking for a change in words
17:29:25 <dael> ...: Saying you can't do these things is odd
17:29:32 <dael> ...: Better to say should not instead of must not
17:29:41 <dael> ...: If you say must you have to test and there's no way to do that
17:29:51 <dael> plinss: Okay, any other feedback?
17:30:00 <dael> plinss: I hear folks need more time to review
17:30:14 <dael> ???: I could do with more time for reading it
17:30:23 <dael> ChrisL: I have a follow-up
17:30:46 <dael> ...: If we want tests for this, currently we can do SVG and HTML test, can we integrate WebVTT?
17:30:56 <dael> plinss: I don't understand how it would be sig. different
17:31:00 <dael> ChrisL: I was asking you
17:31:04 <ChrisL> ok cool
17:31:04 <dael> plinss: I think it's fine
17:31:23 <dael> ???: Would you be able to share the location again in IRC?
17:31:27 <ChrisL> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/text-tracks/raw-file/default/webvtt/Overview.html
17:31:41 <israelh> s/???/israelh
17:31:55 <dael> glenn: Just as a not, VTT is a community group and hasn't enetered into W3C rec track
17:32:07 <dael> ...: also doesn't have a ???? status which is req. before rec track
17:32:17 <dael> ....: Current plan to to take it through the ??? WG
17:32:30 <dael> ...: I wanted to mention that commments might be a bit premature.
17:32:46 <dael> ChrisL: I understood, but I think it's good they asked for feedback earlier
17:32:54 <dael> ...: I think they should be commended for asking early
17:32:57 <dael> plinss: Agreed
17:33:10 <dael> plinss: Not hearing anything else, but that concerns me
17:33:22 <dael> plinss: Do people need more time or are they okay?
17:33:35 <dael> dbaron: I think where they are would add us to add more comments as they find them
17:33:47 <dael> plinss: I just want to make sure it happens.
17:33:58 <SimonSapin> s/dbaron/SteveZ/
17:34:06 <dael> plinss: Only question is, all we have is Chris.  Do you want to send that yourself?
17:34:29 <dael> ChrisL: Yes. I think it would be good to have something from the chairs saying there may be more later.  Tell them they're good for asking.
17:34:34 <dael> plinss: Yes
17:34:41 <dael> Topic: will-animate proposal
17:34:54 <dael> plinss: Anyone want to speak about it?
17:35:09 <dael> smfr: I can summerize
17:35:35 <dael> smfr: as far as I can understand, it will allow authors to say later they'll change something with an annimation
17:35:54 <dael> smfr: this is a trigger to annow user agent to prepare for an animation to start
17:36:10 <dael> ...: the engine may create something ahead to allow it to work more smoothly
17:36:10 <Zakim> -??P66
17:36:29 <dael> ...: This is exposing impl detail and they may change in future to make this unnecessary or confusing
17:36:48 <dael> ...: I'm not a big fan and I think this could be mis-used to force UI to allocation too much memory
17:36:55 <SimonSapin> q+ stacking contexts
17:37:02 <glazou> LOL
17:37:02 <dael> dbaron: There were some design details to avoid exposing too much detail
17:37:02 <SimonSapin> well
17:37:26 <dael> dbaron: That said one of the problesms is there are a bunch of properties where everything by default causes stacking
17:37:42 <dael> ....: There's a desire for will-animate to cause that even without a new value
17:37:59 <dael> sylvaing: I want to clarify that this proposale works with stacking behaviour
17:38:11 <dael> smfr: right, and authors cna create stacking now
17:38:12 <glazou> s/sylvaing/SimonSapin
17:38:23 <dael> ...: I don't see the need wfor will-animate to do that
17:38:39 <dael> ...: Is the desire so that later on you create less work for the UI to di?
17:38:41 <dael> dbaron: Yes
17:38:52 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: this proposal creates stacking contexts, so it’s not just about performance but also affects behavior
17:38:53 <dael> smfr: In webkit creating a stacking context isn't a lot of work
17:39:13 <dael> dbaron: The work is around creating layizing.  When it's not stacking it hast o layerize differently
17:39:20 <dael> smfr: I think that's different between UI
17:39:32 <Zakim> +??P9
17:39:38 <dael> dbaron: I don't think it does.  I think it has to do things in a way that makes it inherently more expencive
17:39:45 <tantek> Zakim, ??P9 is tantek
17:39:45 <Zakim> +tantek; got it
17:39:50 <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
17:39:50 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
17:39:52 <plinss> ack
17:40:16 <dael> plinss: I also have a lot of concerns for similar reasons
17:40:25 <dael> ...: It's the wrong place of optimization
17:40:48 <dael> ...: What concerns me is adding the stacking.  It may be useful because you don't want layering to change with animation, but I'm not seeing that happening
17:41:03 <dael> dbaron: I thinkit's worth talking about why we want this
17:41:12 <dael> ...: There are cases an author knows they want to animate
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17:41:18 <dael> ...: ex touch interface
17:41:28 <dael> ...: When the user touches they know it'll move
17:41:36 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:41:37 <dael> ...: It's important responce is instant
17:41:45 <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
17:41:45 <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
17:41:49 <dael> ...: when we're talking about trying to do touch UI on mobile hardware
17:42:04 <dael> ...: The cost of painting into a layer when it wasn't before is expencive
17:42:16 <dael> ...: ant the cost of optimistically using lots of layers is expencive
17:42:21 <dael> ...: This is a hint
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17:42:32 <dael> ...: Other then change ins tacking, it doesn't have normative req.
17:42:47 <dael> ...: WE haven't been able to get UI with touch to be resoncive without this.
17:42:58 <dael> ...: We need some way to address it and this is the least-bad so far
17:43:15 <dael> plinss: My concern is that this is changing behvaiour, even though you say it's a hint.
17:43:31 <dael> dbaron: That's the problem  we wanted a hint and this is what we had
17:43:39 <dael> ...: Authors are doing worse things right now
17:43:48 <dael> ...: They set translate in advance
17:44:01 <dael> ...: I think having something more explicite is better thehn widespread use of hints
17:44:14 <dael> ...: Such as things are faster in webkit if you stick translate Z
17:44:19 <dael> ....: That's the world we're in
17:44:36 <dael> ???: Should we create something meant to be a hint, or should we create a prop. that's also useful
17:44:43 <dael> smfr: that seems better to me
17:44:46 <plinss> s/???/florian/
17:44:47 <glazou> s/???/ChrisL
17:44:53 <glazou> er
17:44:54 <sgalineau> lol
17:45:00 <dael> dbaron: That does create a hint, but it creates seperate ways for spe. properties
17:45:01 <glazou> s/???/florian
17:45:02 <tantek> s/???/ChrisL
17:45:08 <sgalineau> LOL
17:45:09 <glazou> s/smfr/ChrisL
17:45:19 <glazou> anyway :-)
17:45:29 <dael> plinss: I do agree that is the desire is to create stacking context a prop is better
17:45:45 <dael> dbaron: The desire isn't to create stacking context, the desire is anim. to pref better
17:45:58 <dael> ChrisL: I'm agreeing with dbaron.
17:46:06 <tantek> s/ChrisL/smfr
17:46:19 <dael> ChrisL: I also thinkt hat just creating stacking isn't enough for us to eff. run an animation without a hickup
17:46:25 <tantek> s/ChrisL/smfr
17:46:28 <dael> dbaron: It's not enough, but it's a good side effect
17:46:33 <dael> smfr: I think that's fine
17:46:45 <dael> plinss: does it always create stacking, or only with some prop.
17:46:48 <dael> dbaron: I don't know
17:47:13 <dael> plinss: I'd like to see stacking be a mod of another prop and see if it needs to be explicit.
17:47:21 <dael> ...: I'd liket og et rid of the hacks.
17:47:32 <dael> dbaron: I think req. it's two prop makes people set two prop
17:47:56 <dael> ???: on the other hand, with everything that's stacking today you'd be giving the illusion that you'll be able to put everything in context with a sep prop.
17:48:00 <tantek> s/???/Rossen
17:48:17 <dael> ??: So everything that creates a stacking context with auto meanst hat auto just is computed as force.
17:48:31 <dael> ??: You could do that without an opportunity for turning it off.
17:48:38 <glazou> s/??/florian
17:48:40 <tantek> s/??/Florian
17:48:40 <tantek> s/??/Florian
17:48:57 <dael> ?: Like Simon pointed out, we're trying to find something animatable in it's proper context.
17:49:01 <tantek> s/?/Rossen
17:49:12 <dael> Rossen: I particularly favor a sep. property instead of stacking
17:49:32 <dael> plinss: My otehr q is isn't there some way to look ahead through existing style and guess.
17:49:44 <tantek> "you never know what someone is going to do in Javascript" [seriously]
17:49:49 <tantek> (smfr)
17:49:52 <dael> ...: If the issue is we're looking for something in JS it's an API not a property
17:50:06 <dael> ???: The animation is run through CSS not API
17:50:12 <tantek> s/???/Rossen
17:50:18 <dael> ??: That's odd.  it it's in CSS we should figure it out.
17:50:21 <tantek> s/??/Florian
17:50:31 <dael> ...: If it's b/c there's JS in the middle we should address that
17:50:43 <dael> smfr: If you're using CSS we should fix it
17:51:00 <dael> dbaron: the other prob is that if authors want to rely on this they want to know huristics
17:51:15 <dael> ...: I think it's good to give authors reliablity in what perf. they can expect
17:51:21 <dael> ...: and not say it's undefined
17:51:32 <dael> florian: It still feels like this is close to a prop.
17:51:42 <dael> ...: It says do what I say, but factor
17:51:46 <tantek> s/factor/faster
17:51:57 <dael> ChrisL: It's saying prepare yourself for a future CSS prop change
17:52:06 <tantek> s/ChrisL/smfr
17:52:17 <dael> Rossen_: Does anyone know if animation spec is trying to address this?
17:52:26 <dael> smfr: I don' think so
17:52:29 <florian> s/it says do/that says do/
17:53:02 <dael> smfr: I'm happy for this to conitue if someone on ML summerizes current proposal state
17:53:04 <dbaron> s/animation spec/web animations spec/
17:53:10 <dael> plinss: Can someone write up summary?
17:53:16 <dael> ...: post it to ML?
17:53:24 <dael> dbaron: I can poke someone and see if they can
17:53:35 <dael> plinss: Then disc. will cont on ML
17:53:45 <dael> Topic: interpolate() proposal
17:53:51 <glazou> she is not here
17:53:52 <dael> plinss: lea had a proposal.
17:54:04 <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
17:54:04 <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
17:54:06 <dael> plinss: None of the part are here.  Should we defer?
17:54:23 <dael> Topic: :sorted pseudoclass
17:54:36 <dael> plinss: This was from Tab and we can discuss here
17:54:48 <dael> ...: add a psudeoclass adding HTML sorting model
17:54:54 <dael> ...: Anyone have through?
17:55:07 <dael> glazou: I made a comment on ML bc I think current prop. is not enough
17:55:15 <tantek> would this also apply to <ol reversed> ?
17:55:15 <dael> ...: It doesn't deal with columns that you don't sorty
17:55:34 <dael> ...: If you haev a list of items with an index and you want index to remained ordered, it won't deal with that
17:55:48 <dael> ...: I think it's a good start to match HTML5 and we need toe xtend to be complete
17:56:07 <dael> ...: It's something web authors are doing more and more.  We need a way to present to the viewer
17:56:10 <tantek> q+ to ask about applying to <ol reversed> as well as tables
17:56:24 <sgalineau> doesn't understand; if you leave your table as-is then it can't be re-sorted, right?
17:56:25 <dael> plinss: My q is that we need to extend sorting model of HTML, not CSS
17:56:36 <dael> ...: Are you saying CSS should override the display of the table.
17:56:53 <dael> glazou: The columns sorted with select a column if it's sorted in another place
17:57:00 <dael> ...: We can't select if it's not sorted
17:57:07 <dael> plinss: Wouldn't that be column-not sorted
17:57:07 <tantek> :sorted does not alter the sorting of the table/column/list
17:57:14 <dael> glazou: That's not possible
17:57:21 <dael> ...: It's a bit verbose
17:57:33 <dael> plinss: The proposal was just about if it's sorted or not
17:57:50 <dael> glazou: I had anotehr comment about the arguement that is for determaning only in index
17:57:56 <dael> ...: may way to extend to range
17:57:58 <plinss> :not(:sorted)
17:58:15 <dael> ...: If you sort on multiple columns you may want to sort all without selecting individual
17:58:25 <dael> ...: Other then that I think we should cont.  It's needed
17:58:33 <dael> plinss: Any obj to adding this to selectors 4?
17:58:41 <dael> bert: You would want to know if table is sorted
17:58:43 <tantek> zakim, unmute tantek
17:58:43 <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
17:58:58 <dael> ...: You can do that with subject slector, but may be easier to have psudo on the who table
17:59:02 <dael> s/who.whole
17:59:06 <dael> s/who/whole
17:59:38 <dael> glenn: the only comment is I had was should that aplly to tables too, other then normally ordered?
17:59:45 <tantek> s/glenn/tantek
17:59:47 <dael> plinss: That's an interesting point.  I don't see why not
17:59:58 <tantek> s/apply to tables too/apply to ordered lists too
18:00:04 <dael> RESOLVED: Add :sorted to selectors 4
18:00:11 <Zakim> -smfr
18:00:12 <Zakim> -Glenn
18:00:12 <glazou> dael, action on me
18:00:13 <Zakim> -Plh
18:00:14 <dael> plinss: Thank you everyone
18:00:15 <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
18:00:16 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
18:00:18 <Zakim> -dbaron
18:00:18 <Zakim> -cabanier
18:00:19 <Zakim> -SylvaIng
18:00:19 <Zakim> -glazou
18:00:20 <Zakim> -krit
18:00:21 <Zakim> -dauwhe
18:00:22 <Zakim> -Bert
18:00:22 <Zakim> -ChrisL
18:00:23 <Zakim> -Stearns
18:00:23 <Zakim> -plinss
18:00:23 <Zakim> -fantasai
18:00:24 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:00:24 <Zakim> -tantek
18:00:24 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
18:00:26 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:00:26 <Zakim> -antonp
18:00:27 <Zakim> -SteveZ
18:00:30 <dael> Action: glazou add :sorted to selectors 4
18:00:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-602 - Add :sorted to selectors 4 [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-12-18].
18:00:36 <Zakim> -dael
18:00:38 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:00:38 <Zakim> Attendees were dael, glazou, Stearns, dauwhe, krit, SylvaIng, plinss, Plh, SimonSapin, antonp, smfr, SteveZ, florian, cabanier, Bert, Glenn, ChrisL, dbaron, fantasai, [Bloomberg],
18:00:38 <Zakim> ... tantek, Rossen_
18:00:39 <glazou> thanks dael
18:00:43 <florian> florian has left #css
18:00:48 <tantek> thanks dael!
18:00:59 <dael> thanks everyone!
18:01:09 <dael> I'll learn everyone's voice one day ^-^
18:01:11 <tantek> q-
18:01:13 <Rossen_> Thank you Dael!
18:01:18 <glazou> dael, where are you based ?
18:01:26 <glazou> d'oh
18:01:33 <tantek> apparently not in irc ;)
18:01:36 <glazou> eheh
18:01:59 <tantek> hey whatever happened to ::selection?
18:04:38 <Bert> ::selection proved difficult to define. But now that we are working on generic region styling, it should probably be added there, i.e., in the Regions spec.
18:04:55 <tantek> ugh that sounds a bit awkward
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18:05:12 <tantek> it involves a lot of user interaction more than layout
18:05:26 <sgalineau> yes, not sure what it has to do with Regions.
18:05:44 <Bert> Yes, but the difficult part was defining the inheritance of style, and that is what Regions is about.
18:07:50 <astearns> Bert: are you talking about adding a selector after ::selection, the way it's done with ::region and ::content?
18:08:01 <tantek> I'm not sure I want to conflate ::selection inheritance and ::region inheritance
18:08:35 <glazou> I don't think ::selection belongs to Regions
18:08:43 <tantek> we already have multiple unprefixed implementations of ::selection which to me means we need to test/document existing interop behavior of *that*, rather than try to combine it with Regions
18:08:45 <glazou> it's independent
18:08:49 <tantek> glazou - we are agreed.
18:09:14 <astearns> I am too, but I'd like to understand the point Bert was trying to make
18:09:25 <glazou> sure
18:11:26 <Bert> We also discussed restricting the properties that apply to ::selection to just the easy ones. But otherwise styling a P that is partly in region a and partly in region b is the same problem as styling a P that is partly in ::selection and partly not.
18:12:27 <glazou> ok that argument is that ::selection has relationship with fragmentation ; I agree with that
18:12:59 <Bert> Which is probably the same problem as styling a P that is both in the body and in a running header (if we decide we need to duplicate elements for running headers).
18:13:16 <tantek> re: restricting properties that apply to ::selection - I propose we choose the set of properties that have been interop implemented for ::selection across existing implementations.
18:13:23 <glazou> well
18:13:38 <tantek> at least to get *something* spec'd that authors can depend on.
18:13:43 <glazou> we chose originally to restrict to properties triggering a repaing and not a reflow
18:13:47 <glazou> repaint
18:14:00 <tantek> glazou - agreed, and I want to subset that according to actual implementation today.
18:14:06 <glazou> agreed
18:14:09 <tantek> we can always expand it in an iteration later.
18:14:14 <glazou> absolutely
18:16:30 <glazou> LOL
18:17:21 <tantek> since it was here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-css3-ui-20040511/#pseudo-elements
18:17:37 <tantek> and we now have a much better understanding of its limitations.
18:18:08 <glazou> ::selection was in my first Selectors 3 draft I think, eons ago
18:18:20 <glazou> probably back in 1999
18:19:15 <glazou> spec archeology is always fun :-d
18:20:03 <tantek> glazou - not quite 1999. made it into 2000-04-10 draft which I co-edited so I don't know which of us added it. http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/WD-css3-selectors-20000410#UIfragments
18:21:43 <tantek> glazou - I think it was me - first reference found here: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-css3-userint-19990916#pseudo-selection
18:22:02 <tantek> so yes, 1999 introduced. 2000 incorporated into Selectors.
18:28:44 <glazou> tantek, and I did an implem in Gecko too, because of yours, after *that* crepes dinner
18:28:57 <tantek> *which* crepes dinner - so many I forget
18:29:02 <tantek> was it a Ti Couz?
18:29:11 <glazou> exactly
18:29:12 <tantek> (which is sadly now closed :( )
18:29:22 <tantek> glazou I feel old :(
18:29:32 <glazou> the one when you challenged me to implement :not() overnight
18:29:41 <glazou> :)
18:30:02 <glazou> if you feel old, what should I say eh
18:51:20 <tantek> Bert, sgalineau, astearns - re-adding ::selection captured as CSS3-UI issue 30 per above discussion: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-30
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19:14:17 <tantek> email to list sent
19:18:32 <krit> fantasai: I think I covered all your comments on http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/issues-lc-2013.html
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21:18:24 <krit> fantasai: Hi, I incorporated some of your feedback and would like to ask you if I can close issues 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 18, 20, 21 (removed the note from the spec) and 22. I can also ask on the mailing list if you prefer that.
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22:54:04 <dbaron> TabAtkins, btw, do you know if Dael will be sponsored to attend the Seattle meeting?
23:00:52 <SimonSapin> oh, great. "*Non-US state/province (limit 4 characters)"
23:05:50 <dbaron> SimonSapin, use the ISO 3166 code, clearly :-P
23:06:18 <dbaron> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2
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