15:58:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:58:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-irc
15:58:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:40 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
15:58:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:58:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started
15:58:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:58:43 <trackbot> Date: 10 December 2013
15:58:50 <AWK> Chair: AWK
15:59:16 <AWK> Regrets: Joshue, Bruce, David, Alan
16:00:14 <Kathleen> Kathleen has joined #wai-wcag
16:01:07 <Zakim> +Kathleen_Anderson
16:02:07 <AWK> Zakim, Agenda?
16:02:07 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
16:03:01 <AWK> Agenda+ Discussion of Evaluation Methodology Note
16:03:16 <AWK> Agenda+ Continue ARIA Techniques review - only #4 and #6 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131126ARIA_Techniques/
16:03:34 <AWK> Agenda+ Misc survey for December 10, 2013 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131210/
16:03:47 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see mijordan, Kathleen_Anderson
16:03:50 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:04:00 <AWK> Zakim, mijordan is AWK
16:04:00 <Zakim> +AWK; got it
16:04:05 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
16:04:35 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
16:05:14 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
16:06:05 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
16:06:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:06:48 <AWK> Zakim, ipcaller is Lorertta
16:06:48 <Zakim> +Lorertta; got it
16:06:59 <AWK> Zakim, Lorertta is Loretta
16:06:59 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
16:07:08 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
16:07:56 <SPanchang> SPanchang has joined #wai-wcag
16:08:41 <AWK> Zakim take up agenda item 1
16:09:04 <AWK> Zakim, take up 1
16:09:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up 1', AWK
16:09:13 <Loretta> zakim, item 1
16:09:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'item 1', Loretta
16:09:24 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
16:09:24 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
16:09:25 <Zakim> 1. Discussion of Evaluation Methodology Note [from AWK]
16:09:26 <Zakim> 2. Continue ARIA Techniques review - only #4 and #6 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131126ARIA_Techniques/ [from AWK]
16:09:26 <Zakim> 3. Misc survey for December 10, 2013 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131210/ [from AWK]
16:09:36 <AWK> Next item
16:10:46 <Zakim> +??P8
16:11:08 <MichaelC> q+
16:11:21 <AWK> ack m
16:15:42 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013OctDec/0247.html
16:15:43 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
16:17:40 <AWK> Past survey on EM note: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130221eval/results
16:18:31 <AWK> Past survey on EM note: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130221eval/results
16:18:38 <AWK> Related minutes: http://www.w3.org/2013/02/21-wai-wcag-minutes.html
16:20:06 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item01
16:22:40 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120830evaltf/results
16:23:01 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120913eval/
16:23:05 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120906eval/
16:23:08 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120830evaltf/
16:23:10 <AWK> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/30-wai-wcag-minutes.html
16:25:42 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-wai-wcag-minutes.html
16:29:48 <AWK> zakim, close item 1
16:29:48 <Zakim> agendum 1, Discussion of Evaluation Methodology Note, closed
16:29:49 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:29:49 <Zakim> 2. Continue ARIA Techniques review - only #4 and #6 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20131126ARIA_Techniques/ [from AWK]
16:30:46 <Kathy> scribe: Kathy
16:31:00 <Kathy> TOPIC:  ARIA Technique: Using aria-labelledby to provide a name for user interface controls
16:33:51 <Kathy> AWK: Kathy's comment is in Example 2 the label is read twice
16:34:05 <Kathy> Marc: are we saying that this is an AT issue
16:35:09 <Kathy> AWK:  that is basically where we were on that comment.  There needs to be a user agent note or something along those lines.  It is coded correctly
16:38:19 <Kathy> Sailesh:  Is a landmark is a user interface controls? Example 1 may not belong in this technique
16:38:31 <AWK> zakim, queue?
16:38:31 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:39:10 <Kathy> Loretta: wanted to have an examples showing multiple references
16:40:07 <Kathy> AWK: landmark region is a user interface control
16:40:39 <Kathy> Sailesh:  cannot interact with it, you can only navigate to it
16:41:14 <Kathy> AWK:  may be differences in definitions of user interface controls
16:42:29 <Kathy> Sailesh: should have user interface controls be forms.  Landmarks would be separate
16:42:52 <Kathy> Loretta:  There is technique for landmarks
16:43:10 <AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_name_regions_and_landmarks
16:45:32 <Kathy> Loretta:  most interface controls already have native support so it is not needed.  So that is why we have this set of examples.  We didn't want them to be redundant
16:47:30 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #wai-wcag
16:47:54 <Kathy> Sailesh: suggest using example of form field within a table
16:47:59 <Zakim> +Cooper
16:48:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:48:42 <Kathy> Loretta: The other technique has a data table with form field
16:49:22 <Kathy> Loretta: maybe this technique needs to have example for label with multiple fields
16:50:24 <Kathy> Loretta:  maybe we should add more to the description and link to other techniques for more examples
16:50:37 <Loretta> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-labelledby_to_concatenate_a_label_from_several_text_nodes
16:50:54 <Kathy> AWK: is the working group ok if there is a simple example such as a search field
16:51:57 <Kathy> Kathy: simple example would be good
16:52:27 <Kathy> AWK: or should we have an example that for and id not available
16:53:54 <Kathy> Sailesh: people would need to look at current support so standard HTML way may be better than aria-labelledby
16:54:17 <Kathy> Sailesh: a screen reader user would be able to access but other user groups may not
16:55:32 <Kathy> AWK:  we should not get into the best approach but look at sufficient or not sufficient
16:56:04 <Kathy> Sailesh:  but we also look at AT support, should we provide information on best use in the different scenarios
16:56:33 <Kathy> Loretta:  AT support discussion is difficult.  If we write something today then it could be wrong in 3 months
16:57:32 <Kathy> Michael: agree with Loretta that this is a moving target.  It is up to companies to make the recommendations that go beyond WCAG.  The working group needs to limit how far we go down that path
16:57:38 <Kathy> AWK: leave it open
16:58:30 <Kathy> AWK:  anyone way to draft some examples - 1. simple form control (search field with aria-labelledby) 2. simple custom checkbox using aria-labelledby
16:59:04 <Kathy> AWK:  also include a paragraph that reference the strengths of aria-labelelledby
17:01:01 <Kathy> Sailesh: there is an example in section 9 of the link provided
17:01:52 <Kathy> ACTION: AWK to add two examples and paragraph to the technique
17:01:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-234 - Add two examples and paragraph to the technique [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2013-12-17].
17:02:27 <Kathy> ACTION 234: ARIA Technique: Using aria-labelledby to provide a name for user interface controls
17:02:27 <trackbot> Error finding '234'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.
17:02:44 <Kathy> ACTION-234: ARIA Technique: Using aria-labelledby to provide a name for user interface controls
17:02:45 <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-234 Add two examples and paragraph to the technique.
17:02:57 <Kathy> RESOLUTION:  Leave open
17:03:08 <Kathy> TOPIC: 6. [Start here on 10 Dec] ARIA Technique: ARIA2: Identifying required fields with the aria-required property
17:03:27 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #wai-wcag
17:03:38 <Kathy> AWK:  have done some discussion on this
17:04:48 <Kathy> AWK:  talked about the procedure, changing the title.  Sailesh was going to write best practices for this
17:04:58 <Kathy> Sailesh: it is in the comments in the survey
17:06:05 <Kathy> AWK:  this is going to take some editing so we should leave open until next week
17:06:48 <Kathy> AWK:  there is useful information but we need to write the paragraph
17:07:35 <Kathy> AWK:  issue is that examples do not showcase for aria-required as much as they should
17:07:53 <Kathy> AWK:  in first example it is redundant
17:08:45 <Kathy> Sailesh: highlighted items for compliance vs. usability
17:09:08 <Kathy> AWK:  some cases it is required and other cases it is benefical for reinforcement
17:09:18 <David_MacD_Lenovo> David_MacD_Lenovo has joined #wai-wcag
17:09:19 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #wai-wcag
17:09:38 <David_MacD_Lenovo> +q
17:09:42 <Kathy> AWK: do we just need to change the paragraph or another example as well
17:10:59 <Kathy> David: on the fence... whatever language we use, we should foster the use aria-required
17:12:00 <Kathy> AWK:  in the meeting last week, there are a number of people who said the duplication is ok.  That is not the major concern.  AT may do something in the future when this is added and at that time would have more benefit to end users
17:13:04 <Kathy> AWK: maybe it is similar to the last one where we have a custom control
17:13:52 <Kathy> David:  what about users with cognitive disabilities?  would we want to shift the culture about using * for required fields
17:14:06 <Kathy> AWK: is this just general usability
17:14:11 <Kathy> David:  it is usability
17:14:53 <Kathy> AWK: Sailesh has provided some text.  Does someone want to write the paragraph and example?
17:15:09 <Kathy> Loretta:  the taskforce can do it if it is clear what we want
17:16:35 <Kathy> Sailesh:  the main question is if there is no visible indication then is aria-required actually required
17:16:39 <Kathy> David:  no
17:17:16 <Kathy> Sailesh: agree
17:17:25 <Kathy> David: does not take the place of a visible indicator
17:18:25 <Kathy> AWK:  1.3.1 so scenario needed is a label like phone number or name and not part of the text is required (CSS image, red outline) and then having aria-required
17:19:01 <Kathy> Sailesh: not appropriate to have 3.3.2 in this technique
17:19:18 <Kathy> Loretta:  agreed
17:21:15 <Kathy> AWK: 3.3.2 does the required status count as instructions
17:24:17 <David_MacD_Lenovo> +1
17:24:42 <Kathy> AWK: in example 2, html fields are marked as with asterisk outside the label then aria-required would be satisfied for screen reader users
17:25:43 <Kathy> Sailesh: the instructions are available in text so 3.3.2 is met
17:26:04 <Kathy> Sailesh: it does not satify 1.3.1
17:26:26 <Kathy> David: likes the example
17:27:12 <Kathy> AWK:  we would like a simple example added where * is outside the label and remove 3.3.2 from applicability
17:27:24 <Kathy> Sailesh:  I can write up an example
17:28:02 <Kathy> ACTION: Sailesh to create example of * outside the label with aria-required and a paragraph for 6. [Start here on 10 Dec] ARIA Technique: ARIA2: Identifying required fields with the aria-required property
17:28:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-235 - Create example of * outside the label with aria-required and a paragraph for 6. [start here on 10 dec] aria technique: aria2: identifying required fields with the aria-required property [on Sailesh Panchang - due 2013-12-17].
17:28:56 <Kathy> Loretta: may be good to include examples where this would be helpful
17:29:02 <Kathy> RESOLUTION:  keep open
17:29:30 <Kathy> AWK: another survey that we will not get to in this meeting
17:30:33 <Kathy> AWK: look at the Evaluation Methodology draft
17:31:02 <Kathy> AWK: we have a call next week
17:32:57 <Kathy> AWK: will discuss if there will be a meeting on 24th and 31st.  There are a number of people not available.  We will send an email
17:33:09 <Kathy> AWK:  how many people are going to CSUN
17:33:36 <Kathy> AWK: we will add the question to the survey
17:34:34 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:34:51 <Zakim> -AWK
17:34:52 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:34:52 <Zakim> -Kathleen_Anderson
17:34:54 <Zakim> -Loretta
17:34:54 <Zakim> -Cooper
17:34:57 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
17:34:59 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
17:34:59 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
17:36:16 <Kathy> rrsagent, make minutes
17:36:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html Kathy
17:36:37 <Kathy> trackbot, end meeting
17:36:37 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:36:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathleen_Anderson, Katie_Haritos-Shea, AWK, Marc_Johlic, Sailesh_Panchang, Loretta, Kathy_Wahlbin, Michael_Cooper, Cooper, [IPcaller]
17:36:44 <Kathy> zakim, bye
17:36:44 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Kathleen_Anderson, Katie_Haritos-Shea, AWK, Marc_Johlic, Sailesh_Panchang, Loretta, Kathy_Wahlbin, Michael_Cooper, Cooper, [IPcaller]
17:36:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
17:36:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:36:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot
17:36:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:36:46 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :
17:36:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: AWK to add two examples and paragraph to the technique [1]
17:36:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-irc#T17-01-52
17:36:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 234 to ARIA Technique: Using aria-labelledby to provide a name for user interface controls [2]
17:36:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-irc#T17-02-27
17:36:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Sailesh to create example of * outside the label with aria-required and a paragraph for 6. [Start here on 10 Dec] ARIA Technique: ARIA2: Identifying required fields with the aria-required property [3]
17:36:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/10-wai-wcag-irc#T17-28-02