14:56:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
14:56:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/05-tt-irc
14:56:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:56:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tt
14:56:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TTML
14:56:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:56:23 <trackbot> Date: 05 December 2013
14:57:34 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #tt
14:57:40 <tm> tm has joined #tt
14:58:01 <Zakim> SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started
14:58:08 <Zakim> +??P1
14:58:12 <nigel> zakim, ??P1 is me
14:58:14 <Zakim> +nigel; got it
14:59:23 <plh> plh has joined #tt
14:59:42 <Zakim> +Plh
14:59:50 <Zakim> +Glenn
14:59:54 <glenn> glenn has joined #tt
15:02:20 <mike> mike has joined #tt
15:02:34 <tmichel> Hi, I will attend the meeting, but I must leave at 16h25 for about 20 minutes to get my son at school. We then rejoin.
15:03:02 <Zakim> +Mike
15:03:36 <mijordan> mijordan has joined #tt
15:03:52 <pal> pal has joined #tt
15:04:06 <Zakim> +??P21
15:04:21 <tmichel> zakim, ??P21 is tmichel
15:04:22 <Zakim> +tmichel; got it
15:04:26 <Zakim> +pal
15:04:36 <Zakim> +Andrew_Kirkpatrick
15:05:16 <plh> scribe: plh
15:05:18 <mijordan> Zakim, Andrew_Kirkpatrick is mijordan
15:05:18 <Zakim> +mijordan; got it
15:05:37 <plh> Agenda+ IANA Registration
15:05:44 <plh> Agenda+ Charter
15:05:57 <plh> Agenda+ Actions pending review
15:06:01 <plh> zakim, move to next agendum
15:06:01 <Zakim> agendum 1. "IANA Registration" taken up [from plh]
15:06:19 <plh> action-223?
15:06:19 <trackbot> action-223 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Find iana tracking number for resubmit of mime type registration -- due 2013-10-24 -- CLOSED
15:06:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/223
15:06:33 <plh> Nigel: Mike, you contacted IANA and didn't a response?
15:06:37 <plh> Mike: that's correct
15:06:41 <plh> ... about 2 weeks ago
15:06:55 <plh> ... so I pinged again
15:07:20 <plh> plh: I'll ping our official IETF contact in a week if we don't get answers
15:07:27 <plh> close action-223
15:07:27 <trackbot> Closed action-223.
15:07:51 <plh> action-88?
15:07:51 <trackbot> action-88 -- Mike Dolan to Make sure the TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175. -- due 2013-10-31 -- OPEN
15:07:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88
15:08:01 <plh> zakim, move to next agendum
15:08:01 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Charter" taken up [from plh]
15:08:17 <plh> action-241?
15:08:17 <trackbot> action-241 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Edit charter by next tuesday -- due 2013-11-22 -- CLOSED
15:08:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/241
15:08:38 <plh> close action-241
15:08:38 <trackbot> Closed action-241.
15:08:55 <plh> plh: s/WebVTT/WebVTT 1.0/ in the deliverables
15:08:59 <plh> ... fixed typo
15:09:15 <plh> Nigel: discussion within EBU about dependency wording
15:09:20 <plh> action-242?
15:09:20 <trackbot> action-242 -- Nigel Megitt to Action mark_vickers to ask ig to provide input in external groups list in new charter -- due 2013-11-22 -- OPEN
15:09:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/242
15:09:44 <plh> Nigel: some responded that ATSC needs to be listed
15:09:58 <plh> ... will follow up with plh
15:10:13 <plh> ACTION: plh to add ATSC to the TTML charter
15:10:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-248 - Add atsc to the ttml charter [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2013-12-12].
15:10:28 <pal> q+
15:10:46 <plh> Nigel: some debate on how to proceed on the charter
15:10:51 <plh> ... David Singer is working on it
15:11:07 <plh> ... the issue which is holding us up is the document license one
15:11:22 <plh> ... maybe we can pull back, we would be able to proceed
15:11:27 <plh> ... we're getting there
15:11:50 <plh> ... for example, IMSC is blocked at the moment
15:11:52 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:11:55 <plh> ack pal
15:12:08 <jdsmith> jdsmith has joined #tt
15:12:16 <plh> Pierre: at the f2f meeting, we had a thorough review of the charter and everybody seemed happy
15:12:27 <plh> ... struggling to udnerstand why there is further delay
15:12:48 <plh> Nigel: yes, but document license is an issue
15:12:54 <plh> ... hoping we can revert
15:13:04 <nigel> http://www.w3.org/2013/10/timed-text-charter.html
15:13:12 <plh> Pierre: which version are we looking at?
15:13:57 <plh> plkh: problem is that the charter doesn't allow the use of the CC-BY license
15:14:04 <plh> s/plkh/plh/
15:14:21 <plh> Pierre: my understanding was that it can take a lot of time to resolve this
15:14:36 <plh> ... how long are we going to wait?
15:15:02 <plh> Nigel: we need confirmation that not using an open license is acceptable
15:15:56 <plh> ... from David
15:17:11 <plh> Mike: what's the purpose of listing the external groups?
15:17:14 <plh> plh: getting reviews from them
15:17:34 <plh> Mike: concerned with DVB and ATSC. no individual/human there who cares
15:18:02 <plh> ... so we have those groups but no one care to review those documents
15:18:17 <plh> Nigel: DVB has a subtitle group
15:18:25 <plh> ... which will be brought back to life
15:18:34 <plh> ... with ATSC, I can see your concern
15:18:48 <plh> Mike: problem with ATSC is internal
15:19:14 <plh> ... my first choice would be to remove DVB and ATSC, since our list is not prohibitive
15:19:27 <plh> ... if those orgs don't care, I'd prefer not to list them
15:19:41 <plh> ... how about we leave them off for now?
15:20:37 <plh> Nigel: do we need to receive a reply?
15:20:48 <plh> plh: we don't need to, but we should contact them
15:21:41 <plh> Nigel: adding ATSC came out of the WebTV IG
15:22:19 <plh> Mike: this came out of a new member from WebTV IG, but no real group within ATSC
15:23:10 <plh> Thierry: we can't force folks to review our documents
15:23:13 <plh> Mike: ok, that's fine
15:24:55 <plh> --> http://www.w3.org/2001/11/StdLiaison Liaison page
15:25:13 <plh> Pierre: when do we expect the AC review to happen?
15:25:32 <plh> Nigel: I'll continue to talk to David and get a resolution on this, within the next calendar week
15:25:45 <plh> ... but I'm dependent on the response from David
15:26:17 <plh> zakim, move to next agendum
15:26:17 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Actions pending review" taken up [from plh]
15:26:30 <plh> action-245?
15:26:30 <trackbot> action-245 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Tell mike contact details for proceeding with iana registration -- due 2013-11-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:26:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/245
15:26:39 <plh> close action-245
15:26:39 <trackbot> Closed action-245.
15:26:43 <plh> action-247?
15:26:43 <trackbot> action-247 -- Nigel Megitt to Send text version of tpac minutes to public list - tracker will then combine the issues and actions and associate them automatically. -- due 2013-11-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:26:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/247
15:26:51 <plh> close action-247
15:26:51 <trackbot> Closed action-247.
15:27:10 <plh> Topic: Actions Overdue
15:27:47 <plh> Glenn: I just returned from oversea so no progress today but should ahve by next week
15:27:58 <plh> action-220?
15:27:58 <trackbot> action-220 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Investigate actual css behavior further regarding whether line height of individual lines are affected by font size on line as opposed to maximum over paragraph -- due 2013-10-24 -- OPEN
15:27:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/220
15:28:36 <plh> Glenn: I suggest to reassign it to me
15:28:51 <tmichel> I must leave now for about 20 minutes to get my son at school. Will then rejoin.
15:29:01 <plh> Pierre: this was assigned to me. I did some work on it
15:29:39 <plh> ... all browsers use the largest font on the line to compute the line height.
15:30:06 <plh> Nigel: Glenn, please review this and we'll close this next week
15:30:13 <plh> Glenn: I'll comment on the action
15:30:55 <plh> ... since I have some new input
15:31:12 <plh> action-224?
15:31:12 <trackbot> action-224 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Query mike on priority for issue-72 -- due 2013-10-31 -- OPEN
15:31:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/224
15:31:28 <plh> issue-72?
15:31:28 <trackbot> issue-72 -- Smooth scrolling by means of reference area offset -- closed
15:31:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/72
15:31:31 <glenn> action: glenn to follow up on action-220, possibly opening new issue
15:31:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-249 - Follow up on action-220, possibly opening new issue [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-12-12].
15:32:00 <plh> Nigel: what should be the priority of issue-72?
15:33:18 <plh> Mike: we resolved this in second edition
15:33:31 <plh> close action-224
15:33:31 <trackbot> Closed action-224.
15:33:54 <plh> action-230?
15:33:54 <trackbot> action-230 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Get a review from pf sooner rather than later -- due 2013-11-30 -- OPEN
15:33:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/230
15:35:04 <plh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Oct/0067.html
15:35:55 <plh> Glenn: this seems premature for TTML 2
15:37:10 <plh> close action-230
15:37:10 <trackbot> Closed action-230.
15:37:30 <glenn> action-237?
15:37:30 <trackbot> action-237 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Review with cff folk -- due 2013-11-18 -- OPEN
15:37:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/237
15:38:30 <plh> Nigel: we created in relation to i18n and rendering rules, languages, etc.
15:38:35 <plh> ... related xml:lang
15:38:40 <plh> issue-296?
15:38:40 <trackbot> issue-296 -- Remove xml:lang placement restrictions from IMSC -- open
15:38:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/296
15:39:04 <glenn> action-237: related to issue-296
15:39:04 <trackbot> Notes added to action-237 Review with cff folk.
15:39:19 <plh> Pierre: my action is done
15:39:24 <plh> close action-237
15:39:24 <trackbot> Closed action-237.
15:39:33 <plh> action-238?
15:39:33 <trackbot> action-238 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Follow up on issue-295 -- due 2013-11-18 -- OPEN
15:39:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/238
15:40:18 <plh> Pierre: this is underway
15:40:38 <plh> ... plan is to remove Annex B
15:40:57 <plh> ... and move Annex A into a Note and express it as a superset of TLDR
15:41:01 <plh> (sp?)
15:41:13 <plh> s/TLDR/CLDR/
15:42:33 <plh> action-242?
15:42:33 <trackbot> action-242 -- Nigel Megitt to Action mark_vickers to ask ig to provide input in external groups list in new charter -- due 2013-11-22 -- OPEN
15:42:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/242
15:42:45 <plh> close action-242
15:42:45 <trackbot> Closed action-242.
15:42:55 <plh> action-243?
15:42:55 <trackbot> action-243 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Edit dsinger's proposed wording which captures the intent. -- due 2013-11-22 -- OPEN
15:42:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/243
15:43:13 <plh> Pierre: that's related to issue 295
15:43:43 <plh> ... didn't find issue with the proposed wording
15:44:19 <plh> action-244?
15:44:19 <trackbot> action-244 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Proceed with work to investigate deltas. if time doesn't allow the fallback is to remove annex a. -- due 2013-11-22 -- OPEN
15:44:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/244
15:45:18 <plh> action-246?
15:45:18 <trackbot> action-246 -- Nigel Megitt to Take deliverables of draft charter to tag for scrutiny -- due 2013-11-28 -- OPEN
15:45:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/246
15:45:30 <plh> Nigel: was waiting for a stable draft
15:46:25 <plh> Topic: Due Next Week
15:46:38 <plh> Jerry: I'm working on my action...
15:46:45 <nigel> action-164?
15:46:45 <trackbot> action-164 -- Jerry Smith to Investigate interop issues using CSS familyName constructs -- due 2013-12-05 -- OPEN
15:46:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164
15:47:18 <plh> Glenn: I can send you some email about the issue
15:47:28 <plh> ... since we don't use CSS syntax, we use XML
15:47:44 <plh> ... there is an escaping mechanism in CSS that we didn't use
15:48:00 <plh> ... unicode escaping mechanism
15:48:47 <plh> ... the question is: if you have a TTML document, and serialize it in CSS, you'll need to be careful
15:49:12 <plh> Jerry: this seems that it was a cautious choice, there is a note in the spec
15:49:21 <plh> Glenn: I made the choice, but would like feedback from implementers
15:49:57 <plh> Jerry: I'll close the loop with Sean
15:50:34 <tmichel> I amp now back.
15:50:52 <plh> Mike: do we have an issue here?
15:51:02 <plh> Glenn: a potential one
15:51:21 <plh> Topic: issues discussed
15:51:27 <plh> issue-286?
15:51:27 <trackbot> issue-286 -- Extend the background area behind rendered text to improve readability -- open
15:51:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/286
15:52:43 <plh> Nigel: slightly extending the background does improve readability, raised within EBU
15:52:56 <nigel> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Dec/att-0000/mim-xmlsubs0149r01.ebutts-padding-diagram.pdf
15:53:44 <plh> Nigel: we were concerned on this behavior on arbitrary spans. we relaxed the requirement to be on each line
15:54:19 <plh> ... the pdf illustrates our intent
15:54:51 <plh> ... proposal is to add an attribute
15:55:26 <plh> Glenn: didn't have a chance to look at it yet
15:56:29 <plh> ... we can use padding on span
15:56:53 <plh> ... not about repetition of padding at line breaks
15:57:34 <plh> Nigel: CSS box declaration break is at risk
15:57:43 <plh> ... lack of browser implementation
15:57:48 <plh> ... and we wuld need it
15:58:17 <nigel> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-background/#box-decoration-break
15:58:39 <plh> Glenn: there is some support for them
15:58:44 <plh> in opera and chrome
15:59:46 <plh> Nigel: we'll come back to this one
16:00:01 <plh> issue-288?
16:00:01 <trackbot> issue-288 -- Rules for splitting and accumulating documents -- open
16:00:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/288
16:01:28 <plh> Mike: is this related to the temporal extend of the document?
16:01:30 <plh> Nigel: yes
16:02:16 <plh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Nov/att-0026/mim-xmlsubs0133r05.EBU-TT_Segmentation.pdf
16:03:23 <plh> Mike: this is adding complication and don't prefer it
16:03:33 <plh> ... would prefer to have hints and metadata
16:03:51 <plh> ... this piece of content is going to continue in an other document, please watch decoder
16:05:09 <Zakim> -Plh
16:05:19 <nigel> Mike: not in favour of constraining the temporal containment, would prefer a hint mechanism
16:05:23 <Zakim> -Glenn
16:05:29 <glenn> i need to drop as well
16:09:49 <nigel> Mike: happy to provide a proposal
16:11:54 <nigel> nigel: one issue is the scope of uniqueness of xml:id
16:12:16 <nigel> mike: yes we could typecast the id and add extra uniqueness rules as a hint
16:12:36 <nigel> ... This may be useful in the archive context too
16:13:04 <nigel> ... It's not a good idea to try to compute deterministically 'sameness' by comparing text, position, styling etc.
16:13:52 <nigel> action mike to make proposal re segmentation hints to reflector
16:13:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-250 - Make proposal re segmentation hints to reflector [on Mike Dolan - due 2013-12-12].
16:14:08 <nigel> zakim, next agendum
16:14:08 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, nigel
16:14:29 <mike> clarification - not in favour of *relaxing* the temporal constraints
16:14:42 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:14:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/05-tt-minutes.html tmichel
16:15:03 <Zakim> -mijordan
16:15:05 <nigel> Mike: regrets for next week
16:15:11 <Zakim> -Mike
16:15:12 <Zakim> -pal
16:15:15 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:15:17 <Zakim> -tmichel
16:15:19 <nigel> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:15:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:15:37 <Zakim> -nigel
16:15:38 <Zakim> SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended
16:15:38 <Zakim> Attendees were nigel, Plh, Glenn, Mike, tmichel, pal, mijordan, [Microsoft]
16:28:33 <nigel> chair: nigel
16:28:56 <nigel> Present: nigel, Plh, Glenn, Mike, tmichel, pal, mijordan, Jerry Smith (Microsoft)
16:29:02 <nigel> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:29:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:32:10 <nigel> regrets: Andreas Tai, Frans de Jong
16:32:14 <nigel> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:32:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/05-tt-minutes.html nigel