19:59:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webperf
19:59:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-webperf-irc
19:59:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
19:59:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webperf
19:59:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WPWG
19:59:22 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
19:59:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Performance Working Group Teleconference
19:59:23 <trackbot> Date: 04 December 2013
20:01:11 <JatinderMann> present+ JatinderMann
20:01:13 <plh> plh has joined #webperf
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20:01:28 <plh> trackbot, start telcon
20:01:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:01:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WPWG
20:01:33 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
20:01:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Performance Working Group Teleconference
20:01:33 <trackbot> Date: 04 December 2013
20:01:38 <plh> zakim, this is per
20:01:38 <Zakim> ok, plh; that matches RWC_web-per()3:00PM
20:01:45 <Zakim> +Plh
20:03:53 <Zakim> +[Google]
20:04:13 <JatinderMann> present+ AaronHeady
20:04:17 <JatinderMann> present+ Ilya
20:04:22 <JatinderMann> present+ plh
20:07:53 <JatinderMann> Topic: Beacon
20:10:33 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: Personally, I like having a separate beacon API compared to just extending XHR. XHR is very complex. E.g., what if I set the sync flag and beacon flag on a XHR? Seems like having a separate method may just be much easier.
20:10:59 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: I'm okay with limits if they are relatively large enough to cover our use cases and are a should clause. That way the User Agent has flexibility in increasing if needed, but good developers may try to stick with the suggested limits. From TPAC, seemed like 24K was still necessary.
20:11:29 <Zakim> +??P16
20:15:22 <JatinderMann> Ilya: We still need to determine what the actual limits should be, and what about about rate limiting?
20:15:30 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:16:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:16:49 <JatinderMann> Ilya: What about just using the XHR?
20:17:07 <JatinderMann> Plh: What about using our error logging spec?
20:17:42 <JatinderMann> Arvind: I was thinking about that as well. Navigation Error Logging could potentially show the beacon loss data.
20:18:44 <JatinderMann> Arvind: I had a question about what we mean by synchronous vs. asychronous in terms of beacon?
20:19:57 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: Synchronous we would actually send the data and then return the call. Async means we create an async task and return immediately.
20:21:17 <JatinderMann> Arvind: The processing model actually queues the task async, but it throws exceptions. That seems wrong. IT should either throw the exceptions synchronously first or not throw exceptions.
20:21:22 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: Right.
20:21:27 <JatinderMann> Ilya: Right.
20:21:41 <JatinderMann> Arvind: Jonas wanted to know if the browser sent the beacon.
20:21:52 <JatinderMann> Ilya: I think he wanted to know if it was eventually sent.
20:22:57 <JatinderMann> Arvind: I think we should be able to synchronously check the size and throw an error if its exceeded.
20:23:51 <plh> zakim, ??p16 is Arvind
20:23:51 <Zakim> +Arvind; got it
20:24:10 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: I think thats a reasonable suggestion.
20:26:24 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: Do XHRs have a limit?
20:26:28 <JatinderMann> Ilya: No.
20:27:36 <JatinderMann> Arvind: I think we should keep talking about the size limit on the thread.
20:29:06 <JatinderMann> Arvind: I generally like the idea of keeping the beacon api seperate from xhr, but i don't think we need to close on this now.
20:29:23 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: We still have an issue of specifying retrying?
20:30:03 <JatinderMann> Ilya: There are a lot of issues with retrying, many cases to consider. E.g., connection error may occur, and the UA could retry. The error logging may help here.
20:30:23 <JatinderMann> Arvind: No matter what you do will be a best effort.
20:30:43 <JatinderMann> Arvind: We just want to make sure the browser is making a reasonable effort.
20:31:07 <JatinderMann> Arvind: Even with a synchronous method, data can fail to reach the server.
20:31:51 <JatinderMann> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/Beacon/Overview.html
20:32:27 <JatinderMann> "This method does not provide any information whether the data transfer has succeeded or not, as the data transfer may occur after the page has unloaded. To be still an effective mechanism for developers, the User Agent should make the best effort to transmit the data including making multiple attempts to transmit the data in presence of transient network or server errors, even though it uses POST to transmit the data. "
20:33:07 <JatinderMann> Arvind: We should determine if there is a problem with retrying.
20:33:38 <JatinderMann> Ilya: I don't have good data to quantify the data today. Like if we didn't retry what would be the success rate.
20:35:11 <JatinderMann> Arvind: I think Jonas point was why would we perclude retrying?
20:35:46 <Zakim> -Arvind
20:37:32 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: I dont think we say do not retry. I think that depends on quality of implementations. Whats not clear is how many times should we retry?
20:37:58 <JatinderMann> Ilya: We may want to prototype this and see what's a good limit.
20:38:26 <JatinderMann> Ilya: But that may need to wait until we have implementations.
20:42:42 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: Seems like we should have best effort now, and then when we implement we'll have better data on what's a good level of retrying. I think we need to have an interoperable retrying behavior so that users get the same success level across browsers.
20:42:46 <JatinderMann> Ilya: I think that works.
20:43:14 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: We should continue our discussion on the mailing list.
20:46:44 <Zakim> + +1.408.203.aaaa
20:47:07 <JatinderMann> Topic: Networking Hints
20:48:36 <ken> ken has joined #webperf
20:48:37 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: Preload sounds like "high priority". I worry that by allowing developers to specify which resources are high priority, we may infact get a slower page load. E.g., browsers already order have an order in which they attempt to download resources. E.g., what if the developer wants to download an image before their CSS? We went with lazyload/defer in Resource Priorities as the very reason to stay away from giving the high priority hint, a[CUT]
20:49:07 <JatinderMann> ...suggestion is trying to do exactly that.
20:54:24 <plh> zakim, aaaa is Arvind
20:54:24 <Zakim> +Arvind; got it
20:55:09 <JatinderMann> Ilya: Some developers can shoot themselves in the foot, but they can already do that today using script tag to download images. We had implemented subresource and found that there were issues were folks were putting images to higher pri than css as an example. We were thinking of providing the element type to the link.
20:58:04 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: We really want to make sure that developers don't shoot themselves in the foot. It'd love to see use cases.
20:58:08 <Zakim> -[Google]
20:58:15 <JatinderMann> Topic: Page Visibility
20:58:33 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: What changes did you make to the L2 spec?
21:01:45 <JatinderMann> Arvind: I removed the offscreen state, I added some examples, and cleaned up some of the text.
21:02:47 <Zakim> -Arvind
21:02:49 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
21:02:51 <Zakim> -Plh
21:02:53 <JatinderMann> Topic: Holidays
21:02:53 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:02:53 <Zakim> RWC_web-per()3:00PM has ended
21:02:53 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Plh, [Google], Arvind, +1.408.203.aaaa
21:03:02 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: When should we schedule the next conference call?
21:03:23 <JatinderMann> Arvind: Considering there is interest, let's meet next week and cancel the rest of the year.
21:03:28 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: Works for me.
21:03:44 <JatinderMann> Topic: User Timing and Performance Timeline to Recommendation
21:03:56 <JatinderMann> plh: I'm planning on publishing these two specs to Recommendation next week.
21:04:00 <JatinderMann> Jatinder: Great!
21:04:08 <JatinderMann> rrsagent, generate minutes
21:04:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-webperf-minutes.html JatinderMann
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