15:14:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:14:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-irc
15:14:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:14:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:14:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:14:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 46 minutes
15:14:54 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:14:54 <trackbot> Date: 04 December 2013
15:19:52 <ivan> Chair: Guus
15:36:46 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.12.04
15:58:30 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:36 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:37 <rdfwg> rdfwg has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:45 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
15:59:45 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:51 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:57 <Zakim> +pfps
16:00:03 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:23 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:29 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:00:34 <Zakim> +??P6
16:00:40 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:00:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, ??P6
16:00:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, AZ, Guus, rdfwg, tbaker, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, TallTed, davidwood, AndyS, m4nu, yvesr, ericP, trackbot
16:00:45 <rdfwg> zakim, ??P6 is me
16:00:45 <Zakim> +rdfwg; got it
16:00:52 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:01:04 <rdfwg> zakim, ??P6 is pchampin
16:01:04 <Zakim> I already had ??P6 as rdfwg, rdfwg
16:01:30 <Zakim> +??P11
16:01:38 <Zakim> -rdfwg
16:01:38 <AZ> Zakim, ??P11 is me
16:01:39 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
16:01:43 <ivan> zakim, code?
16:01:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
16:01:51 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:54 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:16 <Zakim> +David_Wood
16:02:31 <Guus> chair: Guus
16:02:33 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:02:47 <Zakim> +??P13
16:02:47 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:02:47 <markus> markus has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, Sandro, AZ, David_Wood, Ivan, ??P13
16:02:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see pchampin, gkellogg, pfps, AZ, Guus, tbaker, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, TallTed, davidwood, AndyS, m4nu, yvesr, ericP, trackbot
16:03:04 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P13 is me
16:03:04 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:03:05 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:03:12 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:03:12 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
16:03:14 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
16:03:14 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
16:03:20 <Zakim> +??P18
16:03:23 <markus> zakim, ??P18 is me
16:03:23 <Zakim> +markus; got it
16:03:27 <Zakim> +??P16
16:03:30 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P16
16:03:31 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
16:03:42 <Zakim> +??P15
16:03:51 <pchampin> zakim, ??P15 is me
16:03:51 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
16:04:51 <sandro> sandro has joined #rdf-wg
16:04:59 <sandro> scribe: sandro
16:05:29 <sandro> guus: busy agenda, expecting 75 minutes
16:05:48 <ivan> zakim, mute me
16:05:48 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
16:05:51 <pfps> minutes look OK
16:06:29 <sandro> gregg: Have the tests been moved into their final location?
16:06:41 <ivan> I di
16:06:44 <ivan> s/di/did/
16:06:54 <AndyS> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2013/N-TriplesTests/
16:07:02 <Zakim> +ericP
16:07:06 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:07:31 <sandro> page now points: The test suite is at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/file/d2aa3c0cdec7/rdf-turtle/tests-nt.
16:08:02 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:08:09 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:08:20 <sandro> guus: PLEASE contact your AC rep to vote on JSON-LD
16:08:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:08:31 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
16:08:31 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:08:32 <sandro> topic: CR Implementations
16:08:41 <sandro> guus: rdf-mt is being challening
16:09:06 <sandro> pfps: We've had two sort-of responses, one from Olivier and one from Michael Schneider
16:09:35 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:09:35 <sandro> pfps: Olivier's Corese -- I looked at it -- doesn't produce the expected answer for 7 of the 42 tests.
16:09:46 <gkellogg> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html
16:09:51 <sandro> pfps: biggest reason is they don't do anything follows from a contradiction
16:10:09 <sandro> pfps: I think we once decided not to test that.
16:10:26 <sandro> pfps: I suggest we change those tests to be directly a contradiction, instead of anything-follows-from
16:10:47 <sandro> pfps: containerMembershipProperties ... lots of systems don't do anything with them if they don't occur in the input
16:11:01 <sandro> pfps: A solution is to just put it in the input as a crutch.
16:11:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:11:16 <sandro> pfps: Also, something with integer and string, I still need to look into that.
16:11:29 <sandro> guus: How many of the 7 would you consider real failures
16:11:34 <sandro> pfps: None.
16:11:46 <Zakim> +??P21
16:12:27 <sandro> pfps: Very few people actually implement "entailment" per se; instead the implement a sort of "completion" thing.   So they'll detect contractions, but they wont implement a couple of the structural rules, since those are done at the matching phase at the end
16:12:45 <sandro> pfps: Oh, maybe one.  Inclusion detection between integer and string.   That may be a failure.
16:13:25 <sandro> pfps: If you say integer is a subclass of string, that
16:13:37 <sandro> pfps: If you say integer is a subclass of string, that's false, and Corese doesn't detect that.
16:13:45 <sandro> pfps: I need to ping Olivier back a little more.
16:13:48 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:14:02 <sandro> pfps: There was an error in the manifest that I corrected.
16:14:04 <markus> shouldn't the report at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-mt/reports/index.html show the content of the turtle files? I just get "....ttl not loaded" everywhere; gkellogg !?
16:14:33 <Zakim> +PatH
16:15:40 <PatH> FWIW, XSD says integers aren't strings.
16:16:23 <sandro> pfps: I sent personal messages to the people I thought were appropriate, but haven't gotten encouraging responses.
16:16:24 <PatH> OK, neveeerrrrr miiind.
16:16:50 <sandro> sandro: maybe me, or the chairs, should try contacting them as well?
16:17:05 <sandro> pfps: Maybe they're working on them.   :-)
16:17:20 <Guus> q?
16:17:53 <PatH> tried jos deRoo?
16:18:11 <ivan> s/deRoo/de Roo/
16:18:48 <sandro> sandro: What about Mike Dean & associated Silk folks?
16:19:38 <PatH> Parliament doing RDF reasoning sounds rather unlikely to me.
16:20:19 <ericP> PatH, jos would probably use euler, which is actually two cwm clones, one implemented in C# and the other in prolog
16:20:38 <PatH> i think it would be conforming to simply report contradictions as an error.
16:20:50 <ericP> PatH, does prolog implement "everything follows from a contradiction"?
16:21:05 <sandro> pfps: A rule based system can do all of these except Everything Follows from a Contradiction
16:21:25 <PatH> EricP, if you mean, does it actually draw those ocnclusions, no.
16:21:38 <sandro> sandro: yes, let's change the everything-follows-from-a-contradiction
16:21:47 <sandro> sandro: WHat about Jan Weilemaker?
16:21:54 <PatH> YOu can map it all into a FOL style syntax.
16:22:05 <sandro> pfps: Oxford is close, except for predicate variables
16:22:36 <sandro> pfps: If you map to FOL it's not triples any more
16:23:10 <sandro> pfps: whatever representation, it needs to handle variables in its predicate position.
16:23:23 <sandro> I use one predicate: rdf(s,p,o)
16:24:02 <sandro> pfps: The Oxford folks are saying that's not as efficient.
16:24:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: Change the semantics tests to use an explicit contradiction marker, in the test manifest, instead of having everything following from a contradiction.
16:25:00 <PatH> I think they should be required to explode, but this MUST be interpreted as an error condition.
16:25:05 <Guus> +1
16:25:11 <pfps> +1
16:25:13 <ivan> +1
16:25:13 <gkellogg> +1
16:25:14 <PatH> +1
16:25:18 <zwu2> +1
16:25:18 <sandro> +1
16:25:19 <ericP> +1
16:25:19 <AZ> +1
16:25:22 <pchampin> +1
16:25:22 <markus> +1
16:25:31 <davidwood> +1
16:25:33 <sandro> RESOLVED: Change the semantics tests to use an explicit contradiction marker, in the test manifest, instead of having everything following from a contradiction.
16:25:50 <sandro> pfps: I'll make those changes and talk to Olivier about re-running his stuff.
16:26:04 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
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16:26:52 <sandro> sandro:I think we need to resolve PR a week from today.
16:27:20 <sandro> guus: We made our lives difficult with semantics tests.
16:27:48 <PatH> Even with the 2004 semantics, RDFS allows contradictions. What was done with such tests then?
16:28:01 <sandro> pfps: I'll send contact list to chairs
16:28:13 <sandro> guus: We'll try to keep track of them over the coming weeks.
16:28:21 <sandro> topic: Syntax CRs
16:28:40 <sandro> gregg: Got result from Dave Backet, who is NOT doing TriG
16:29:16 <sandro> gregg: We have 2 impls for N-Quads and TriG   (Jena and Ruby RDF) and 3 for NTriples,  with raptor.
16:29:40 <sandro> guus: So all four languages are fine, as far as exit criteria
16:29:55 <sandro> guus: All impl reports up to date?
16:30:03 <sandro> gregg: small update to N-Triples
16:30:20 <sandro> guus: Excellent.
16:30:53 <sandro> eric: Are Turtle parsers N-Triples parsers?
16:31:05 <sandro> gregg: Not really, because of the Negative Syntax tests.
16:31:50 <sandro> guus: So our only CR-exit concern is rdf-mt
16:32:01 <sandro> topic: CR Comments
16:32:30 <sandro> guus: It looks like Turtle are all resolved, yes?
16:32:31 <sandro> ericP: Yes.
16:32:59 <sandro> guus: Proposal from Andy on closing 4 Turtle issues.   Okay?
16:33:34 <Guus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0159.html
16:34:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: close issue-172 issue-173 issue-174 issue-175 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0159.html
16:34:24 <AndyS> +1
16:34:32 <ivan> +1
16:34:33 <gkellogg> +1
16:34:40 <pfps> +1
16:34:49 <zwu2> +1
16:34:53 <sandro> andy: They've all been accepted by the commenters, details in issue writeups
16:34:54 <sandro> +1
16:34:54 <TallTed> +1
16:34:58 <markus> +1
16:35:04 <pchampin> +1
16:35:05 <sandro> RESOLVED: close issue-172 issue-173 issue-174 issue-175 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Nov/0159.html
16:35:40 <AZ> +1
16:35:46 <yvesr> +1
16:36:18 <sandro> guus: Need handling of comments on N-triples and N-Quads.   Maybe we need another editor, since Gavin hasn't been doing it.
16:36:31 <sandro> andy: If necessary
16:36:36 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:36:39 <sandro> andy: Okay, I'll do it.
16:36:57 <sandro> guus: Thanks!
16:36:57 <davidwood> +1
16:36:57 <davidwood> Thanks, Andy
16:37:10 <Zakim> +Arnaud
16:37:15 <sandro> guus: Comments on escape characters?   Real issue?
16:37:24 <sandro> andy: I don't think so, but I haven't looked closely yet.
16:37:48 <sandro> andy: It's editorial, "Would you clarify..."
16:37:56 <sandro> guus: I repled to David Booth today
16:38:05 <sandro> guus: Maybe we should send some reminders
16:38:19 <sandro> guus: IRIs and globals, and M. Schn.
16:38:25 <AndyS> q+
16:38:52 <sandro> action: guus send reminders for comments 1 and 2
16:38:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-331 - Send reminders for comments 1 and 2 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-12-11].
16:38:53 <PatH> I think we already sent a response to mIchael, no?
16:39:12 <sandro> (the leftovers from Last Call)
16:39:15 <PatH> Ah, ok.
16:39:18 <sandro> guus: Just reminders.
16:39:54 <sandro> guus: Please start getting your documents in order for Proposed Recommendation.
16:40:03 <PatH> What needs to be done?
16:40:09 <AndyS> CR #13 is a little more than editorial.
16:40:17 <sandro> guus: Document is fine, aside from Boiler Plate?
16:40:29 <sandro> pfps: Yes.
16:40:39 <sandro> markus: Section on Literals, maybe.
16:41:16 <sandro> davidwood: Section at the bottom on differences is Way Out Of Date.   I propose cutting it and instead having a pointer to the What's New Note.
16:41:34 <sandro> guus: Turtle document status?
16:41:36 <Souri> s/repled/replied/
16:41:38 <ericP> ack me
16:41:49 <sandro> ericP: I believe the document is in order.
16:42:05 <davidwood> Concepts Appendix A is out of date and should be removed in favor of the What's New note.
16:42:11 <sandro> guus: Schema and XML later
16:42:14 <AndyS> q-
16:44:09 <sandro> guus: decision on 11th or 18th.  Hm.
16:44:46 <sandro> guus: Schema is coming along and pretty good.
16:45:43 <PatH> I trust you. Guus.
16:45:56 <sandro> ( Note Publication Moratorium: starting 18 December 2013 through 1 January 2014 )
16:47:17 <PatH> months????
16:47:52 <PatH> <strangled noises />
16:47:55 <sandro> guus: I put my name in the Schema acknowledgement sections, but didnt list myself as an editor.
16:48:07 <PatH> OK
16:48:52 <sandro> guus: I removed the schema appendix.
16:49:05 <sandro> guus: it was a courtesy, not it's a discourtesy,.
16:49:50 <sandro> sandro: Title.   Ugh.  Oh well.
16:49:56 <sandro> topic: RDF/XML
16:50:40 <sandro> guus: Fabien isn't here.   THere's a day of editorial work to day.    I'll might do it if Fabien can't.     We didn't promise it in any case.
16:50:48 <sandro> topic: Namespace Documents
16:50:54 <davidwood> NO
16:50:57 <davidwood> :)
16:51:28 <pchampin> I'm buying!
16:53:34 <sandro> sandro: My sense is that the nsdoc is NOT the WG's responsibility, but I'll definitely ask for WG review.
16:53:45 <sandro> guus: Sounds okay.
16:53:57 <sandro> topic: Dataset Semantics
16:54:21 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:54:26 <sandro> guus: Pat, what about your reviews?
16:54:55 <sandro> pat: I think the document is basically okay, although it could use some editorial work and polish.
16:55:30 <sandro> guus: Plan is to publish in December and then republish at Rec time.
16:55:49 <sandro> an: I've read the comments; I'll reply soon.  Some discussion to do.
16:55:59 <sandro> an: Most of them should be fine.
16:56:22 <sandro> guus: You CAN leave Open Issue in the document.   It doesn't need to be consensus in this version.
16:56:31 <AZ> s/an:/AZ:/
16:56:56 <sandro> sandro: That suggests we'll all be doing RDF WG stuff during January
16:56:59 <sandro> pat: That's life.
16:57:23 <sandro> guus: Please go ahead without my review.
16:57:27 <sandro> topic: Primer
16:57:55 <sandro> guus: Very extensive review from Pat.    Ongoing discussion.   Figures are not quite right yet.
16:58:07 <yvesr> (figures should be there this evening)
16:58:15 <sandro> .. I've adopted MOST of Pat's comments.    I hope you like the rephrasing about Statements, Pat.
16:58:21 <PatH> i need to go over the latest version.
16:58:24 <sandro> .. main thing left is how we talk about Multiple Graphs.
16:58:46 <sandro> PatH: I'm not up on the latest email from Guus.
16:59:16 <gkellogg> q+
16:59:29 <sandro> guus: On Multiple Graphs:    <reading>
17:00:07 <tbaker> what is the time-frame for review and revision of the Primer?
17:00:23 <sandro> pfps: A Literal is a Resource.
17:01:10 <yvesr> s/pfps/PatH
17:01:27 <sandro> sandro: Literals and IRI are types of Terms; they denote Resources
17:01:33 <sandro> Pat: Right.
17:03:39 <pchampin_> pchampin_ has joined #rdf-wg
17:04:04 <sandro> guus: I'm thinking about publishing soon so we can do a revision for Rec.
17:04:15 <sandro> Pat: I'm still not happy about the "Meta" stuff.
17:04:29 <sandro> guus: We'll put in some warning notes about that.
17:05:41 <sandro> ivan, I don't agree
17:05:58 <yvesr> so who should?
17:06:44 <yvesr> PatH: we had an explicit requirement to add a provenance example to the primer
17:06:53 <yvesr> s/PatH:/PatH,
17:07:30 <sandro> pat: THe Primery must say: ONLY DO THIS IF YOU HAVE OUT-OF-BAND AGREEMENT, YOU CAN'T DO THIS ON THE OPEN WEB.
17:07:48 <sandro> markus: Even with that warning, people will still do it.
17:08:20 <sandro> pat: I'm hearning people who think we're giving them semantics.
17:08:57 <ivan> can we refer to Antoine's document in the primer?
17:09:13 <yvesr> sandro, and which are the two different ways?
17:09:15 <Arnaud> is the primer the place for airing this kind of dirty laundry??
17:09:29 <PatH> +1 Arnaud
17:09:59 <sandro> It's the place for telling people things they need to know, yes?
17:10:02 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
17:10:02 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
17:10:05 <sandro> and everyone wants to know.
17:10:52 <sandro> Yves, the two ways are graph-name-is-URL-for-that-content and graph-name-denotes-that-content.
17:11:12 <yvesr> Guus, +999
17:11:16 <sandro> guus: It'd be good to have provenance example in primer.
17:11:53 <sandro> guus: And weird to have a big feature of RDF that's not explained in Primer.
17:12:19 <PatH> i think we should not have a provenance example in the primer. RDF as specified does not support provenance.
17:12:19 <sandro> ivan: The Provenance example is usable only if you pick one of Antoine's semantics.
17:12:36 <Zakim> -David_Wood
17:12:53 <sandro> markus: What about Sandro's Direct Datasets.    Can we use that?
17:13:04 <sandro> ivan: That's what Antoine's document does.
17:13:36 <sandro> pat: But Antoine's document doesn't ....
17:13:44 <sandro> markus: Bring them inband.
17:14:40 <sandro> sandro: ANyone can define the terms
17:14:56 <sandro> pat: Antoine's spec clarifies several options.
17:15:25 <AZ> +1 to Pat here
17:15:41 <sandro> pat: But not enough to really tell you how to use.
17:16:29 <sandro> sandro: How about if the Primer says "We've provided syntax, but not enough semantics to make them useful, so stay tuned."
17:16:39 <sandro> pat: Yes.
17:16:52 <sandro> pat: So give an example that doesn't use metadata.
17:17:13 <sandro> guus: But we have this requirement of a Provenance Example.
17:17:29 <sandro> guus: Someone mail me an example?
17:17:40 <sandro> guus: We promised it to Prov WG
17:18:31 <sandro> guus: They do the stuff in the nanopublications example.
17:18:51 <Zakim> -pfps
17:19:22 <sandro> guus: Hopefully we can decide on two notes next week; maybe PR for syntax specs.
17:19:24 <Zakim> -gkellogg
17:19:25 <Zakim> -??P21
17:19:25 <Zakim> -yvesr
17:19:26 <sandro> ADJOURNED
17:19:27 <Zakim> -ericP
17:19:28 <Zakim> -PatH
17:19:28 <Zakim> -TallTed
17:19:30 <Zakim> -AZ
17:19:31 <Zakim> -Arnaud
17:19:32 <Zakim> -markus
17:19:34 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:19:36 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:19:38 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:20:03 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
17:20:03 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:20:03 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, rdfwg, Sandro, AZ, David_Wood, Ivan, yvesr, TallTed, markus, gkellogg, pchampin, ericP, zwu2, [IPcaller],
17:20:06 <Zakim> ... PatH, Arnaud
17:20:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:20:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
17:20:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:20:12 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
17:20:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: guus send reminders for comments 1 and 2 [1]
17:20:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-rdf-wg-irc#T16-38-52