16:24:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
16:24:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-css-irc
16:24:10 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
16:24:10 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
16:24:14 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:29:21 <michou> michou has joined #css
16:54:59 <dael> dael has joined #css
16:55:50 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:55:57 <Zakim> +dael
16:55:59 <Ms2ger> Ms2ger has joined #css
16:56:05 <Zakim> +??P21
16:56:12 <glazou> Zakim, ??P21 is me
16:56:12 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:56:30 <dael> scribenick: dael
16:56:57 <Zakim> +plinss
16:57:23 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
16:57:53 <Zakim> +SylvaIng
16:58:07 <Zakim> +??P7
16:58:11 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P7 is me
16:58:11 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:58:35 <Zakim> +??P10
16:58:46 <Zakim> -??P10
16:59:25 <Zakim> +??P8
16:59:36 <abinader> Zakim, +??P8 is me
16:59:36 <Zakim> sorry, abinader, I do not recognize a party named '+??P8'
16:59:44 <glazou> Zakim, ??P8 is abinader
16:59:44 <Zakim> +abinader; got it
16:59:58 <adenilson> adenilson has joined #css
17:00:02 <glazou> abinader, you have to omit the +
17:00:14 <Zakim> +Stearns
17:00:20 <abinader> glazou: ah, thx, got it
17:00:58 <Zakim> + +40.30.010.aaaa
17:00:58 <c_palmer> c_palmer has joined #css
17:01:18 <antonp> Zakim, aaaa is me
17:01:18 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
17:01:26 <Zakim> +Bert
17:01:29 <Zakim> +Plh
17:01:48 <Zakim> +AWK
17:01:53 <Zakim> +??P13
17:02:00 <adenilson> adenilson has joined #css
17:02:01 <Zakim> +fantasai
17:02:34 <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
17:02:44 <c_palmer> Zakim, [Bloomberg] is me
17:02:44 <Zakim> +c_palmer; got it
17:02:58 <israelh> israelh has joined #css
17:03:09 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:03:21 <sgalineau> Zakim, don't tell me how many words is too many
17:03:21 <Zakim> I don't understand you, sgalineau
17:03:30 <glazou> Zakim, [Microsoft] has israelh
17:03:30 <Zakim> +israelh; got it
17:03:47 <glazou> sgalineau, we need to spec that, let's discuss a name :-)
17:04:29 <miChou_web> miChou_web has joined #css
17:05:23 <abinader> sorry
17:05:30 <abinader> Zakim, mute me
17:05:30 <Zakim> abinader should now be muted
17:05:34 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
17:05:44 <abinader> how to unqueue?
17:05:48 <Zakim> +??P24
17:05:56 <glazou> Zakim, q- abinader
17:05:56 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
17:05:56 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
17:06:06 <abinader> right, noted
17:06:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:06:19 <koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
17:06:19 <Zakim> +koji; got it
17:07:05 <astearns> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-shapes/
17:07:08 <fantasai> astearns: Made edits, shapes is ready for LC
17:07:26 <fantasai> fantasai: Sounds good to me
17:07:29 <fantasai> glazou: Me too
17:07:32 <fantasai> Rossen: Let's do it
17:08:21 <fantasai> RESOLVED: LC for Shapes
17:08:30 <fantasai> Bert: Which groups shall we ask for review?
17:08:45 <fantasai> astearns: SVG certainly
17:08:50 <fantasai> glazou: DigiPub IG
17:08:56 <plh> q+
17:09:02 <plh> q-
17:10:10 <fantasai> [discuss LC period]
17:10:23 <adenilson> Zakim, who is on the call?
17:10:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, glazou, plinss, SylvaIng, SimonSapin, abinader (muted), Stearns, antonp, Bert, Plh, AWK, ??P13, fantasai, c_palmer, [Microsoft], ??P24, koji
17:10:24 <fantasai> deadline: 8 January 2014
17:10:27 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has israelh
17:10:27 <Zakim> +dbaron
17:10:33 <fantasai> er, 7 January 2014
17:10:37 <fantasai> (tuesday)
17:10:44 <fantasai> people can ask for extension
17:10:54 <fantasai> glazou: plinss mentioned request from WebVTT
17:11:01 <fantasai> plinss: Forgot to forward email to WG...
17:11:18 <fantasai> plinss: They want us to look at ::cue-region etc.
17:11:31 <plinss> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/text-tracks/raw-file/default/608toVTT/region.html
17:11:51 <fantasai> glazou: How much time to we have?
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17:11:57 <fantasai> plinss: Didn't mention it in the email
17:12:12 <plinss> http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#css-extensions
17:12:43 <fantasai> Bert: I'm interested in reviewing
17:12:55 <fantasai> glazou: Let's shoot for 2 weeks
17:13:14 <fantasai> ACTION everyone: Review the WebVTT spec for ::cue and ::cue-region
17:13:14 <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
17:13:32 <fantasai> glazou: I've another concern about CSS stuff being in other specs
17:13:41 <fantasai> glazou: Shadow DOM is adding CSS stuff to Shadow DOM spec
17:13:48 <glazou> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23467
17:13:52 <fantasai> glazou: There's an experimental feature introducing two new combinators to Selectors
17:14:09 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:14:12 <abinader> I'd like to mention if is it possible to add CSS3 Text Decoration properties as CSS extensions of WebVTT
17:14:13 <fantasai> glazou: We should monitor this, before it becomes too late to discuss anymore
17:14:41 <abinader> currently only text-decoration is listed there
17:14:54 <abinader> but on CSS3 spec it is now a shorthand
17:15:02 <abinader> fantasai: right
17:15:09 <glazou> Zakim, mute SimonSapin
17:15:09 <Zakim> SimonSapin should now be muted
17:15:20 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#css-extensions
17:15:28 <fantasai> That's Tab's summary of Shadow DOM stuff
17:15:50 <fantasai> Topic: Dates for Seattle
17:15:58 <SimonSapin> About Grid, I’d like to hear from Rossen on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0382.html
17:16:01 <fantasai> glazou: Dates are firm?
17:16:16 <fantasai> sylvaing: We currently have that week booked
17:16:24 <fantasai> sylvaing: Can swap CSS/SVG, but everything is booked for that week
17:16:33 <Zakim> -abinader
17:16:38 <fantasai> sylvaing: Right now CSS is M-W
17:16:47 <fantasai> glazou: Maybe we should freeze that so ppl can book their flights
17:17:01 <lmcliste_> lmcliste_ has joined #css
17:17:02 <dbaron> I probably prefer CSS first (i.e., M-W as currently planned), because I'd like to be in the bay area at least a few days that week, and M-W lets me return Wednesday night.
17:17:36 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Seattle F2F 27-29 January
17:17:55 <fantasai> sylvaing will add more info next week
17:18:14 <fantasai> glazou: I got a request from szilles to sort out September dates
17:19:11 <Zakim> +??P3
17:19:18 <abinader> Zakim: ??P3 is me
17:19:26 <abinader> Zakim, ??P3 is me
17:19:26 <Zakim> +abinader; got it
17:19:26 <fantasai> fantasai suggests sorting this on a call with more people
17:19:38 <Rossen_> Rossen_ has joined #css
17:19:40 <glazou> Zakim, mute abinader
17:19:40 <Zakim> abinader should now be muted
17:20:04 <fantasai> ACTION glazou: send email wrt dates for September F2F
17:20:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-600 - Send email wrt dates for september f2f [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-12-04].
17:20:09 <fantasai> Topic: nav-up/down/left/right
17:20:22 <fantasai> glazou: We have 2 or 3 interoperable implementations at this time, implementing the four properties
17:20:29 <fantasai> glazou: I contributed 64 tests, that need review
17:20:36 <fantasai> glazou: The tests are partly based on what Opera did
17:20:43 <fantasai> glazou: Good news is that all tests are passed by at least 2 impls
17:20:55 <fantasai> glazou: So I don't think the properties are at-risk anymore, but up to WG to decide
17:21:21 <fantasai> sylvaing: How comprehensive is 64?
17:21:28 <fantasai> glazou: I made a test for every normative statement in the spec
17:21:34 <fantasai> glazou: I think 64 is final
17:21:38 <fantasai> sylvaing: or very close. Good
17:21:50 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't see a problem
17:21:52 <fantasai> sylvaing: me neither
17:22:01 <fantasai> plh: What are the two implementations?
17:22:04 <fantasai> glazou: Opera TV emulator
17:22:19 <fantasai> glazou: 2nd/3rd are Smart TV emulator from Samsung and build of Chromium that matches that implementation
17:22:24 <fantasai> glazou: emulator is difficult to test
17:22:31 <fantasai> glazou: but can use standalone browser Chromium
17:22:39 <fantasai> glazou: Same feature based on same code
17:22:47 <fantasai> rossen: First one is Presto?
17:22:49 <fantasai> glazou: Presto
17:23:10 <fantasai> Rossen: So we have one Presto and one Blink
17:23:42 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Remove nav-up/down/left/right from CSS3 UI
17:24:08 <fantasai> ACTION glazou: Make that edit
17:24:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-601 - Make that edit [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-12-04].
17:24:20 <fantasai> Topic: Spread Radius Formula
17:24:21 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0290.html
17:24:33 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0290.html
17:25:03 <fantasai> fantasai: At TPAC we were talking about the discontinuity of the spread shape between border radius of zero and non-zero
17:25:16 <fantasai> fantasai: And dbaron suggested making some kind of gradual increase
17:25:32 <fantasai> fantasai: So after some informal discussions, we came up with a fairly simple formula
17:25:42 <fantasai> fantasai: 1 + (x-1)^3
17:26:05 <fantasai> fantasai: which describes how much of the spread distance to add to the curve radius while it is less than the border radius
17:26:15 <glazou> SRUK is going to  be happy
17:26:22 <glazou> sorry
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17:26:24 <fantasai> fantasai: This gives the same results in case of zero and in case of border-radius greatre than spread
17:26:34 <fantasai> fantasai: But in between it interpolates smoothly
17:27:05 <fantasai> fantasai: slowing down the rate of change so that it hits constant 1 smoothly
17:27:22 <fantasai> fantasai: And the rate of change at the beginning is not too fast
17:27:45 <fantasai> fantasai: The result looks better than the previous definition in all cases
17:27:47 <glazou> see http://is.gd/miUFlA
17:27:57 <fantasai> fantasai: Because it used to look weird when you had a small border-radius and large spread readius
17:28:04 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds/spread-radius
17:28:19 <astearns> x = border-radius/spread
17:28:35 <fantasai> fantasai: You can play with formulas we tried there
17:28:50 <fantasai> plinss: I added a bezier function to that demo as well
17:29:20 <fantasai> plinss: Adds a lot of ability to change curve
17:29:29 <fantasai> plinss: cubic-bezier is what's used in transitions
17:30:08 <astearns> also used for calculating the margin-box shape, where x = border-radius/margin
17:30:10 <fantasai> fantasai: I think the cubic looks good enough, but if people have reasons to tweak the behavior (moves too fast here, too slow there), can play with cubic bezier
17:30:14 <Rossen_> ^3 ftw
17:31:09 <astearns> +1 for cubic from me
17:31:22 <fantasai> fantasai: My suggestion is to accept the cubic function in the spec, and take it to LC
17:31:36 <fantasai> glazou: Looks good to me
17:31:44 <fantasai> Bert: I see little difference between them
17:32:52 <fantasai> fantasai: You have to set the spread to something large, then bend the radius very slowly from zero to equal to spread
17:33:01 <fantasai> fantasai: The difference is in the rate near zero
17:33:06 <fantasai> fantasai: Cubic looks better
17:33:27 <fantasai> glazou: Do we want to extend in the future?
17:33:41 <fantasai> dbaron: Don't think is something we want multiple options for
17:33:57 <fantasai> sylvaing: Might want the possibilities, but for now cubic is great
17:34:04 <SimonSapin> +1 for cubic, but this looks to me like a tiny difference that you have too for. Let’s pick something and move on.
17:34:21 <fantasai> RESOLVED: use cubic function for spread radius bending
17:34:53 <fantasai> fantasai: Want to take css3-background through LC
17:35:52 <fantasai> astearns: The spec doesn't currently describe how background-position animates correctly
17:36:13 <fantasai> astearns: Can post that to the list
17:36:59 <fantasai> fantasai: Reads off Animatable line of spec
17:37:03 <fantasai> fantasai: That's clearly wrong
17:37:22 <dbaron> dbaron: I think a <position> can be represented as a pair of values if you use calc() functions
17:37:24 <fantasai> dbaron: You can represent all positions as two values of length, percentage, or calc
17:37:38 <fantasai> dbaron: That's what we do in Gecko
17:38:02 <fantasai> astearns: In Gecko you might do that, but the Animatable line doesn't match the computed value
17:38:24 <fantasai> fantasai: So, the reason the computed value line is written that way
17:38:48 <fantasai> fantasai: is because in L4 we expect to add logical keywords
17:38:58 <dbaron> dbaron: ... but you also can't animate between that purely in the computed value space
17:38:59 <fantasai> fantasai: and you cannot animate between physical and logical coords
17:39:38 <fantasai> ...
17:39:49 <fantasai> fantasai: So, we could make physical coords animatable like in Gecko
17:40:01 <fantasai> fantasai: And for logical coords, you'd do the same but with keywords for start start origin
17:40:08 <fantasai> fantasai: and then you can't animate between the two
17:40:17 <fantasai> dbaron: ...
17:40:29 <fantasai> dbaron: So I think this spec needs to write a definition for animating <position>
17:40:37 <dbaron> dbaron: I don't think we should do it during the call
17:40:47 <fantasai> fantasai: Would that go in this spec, or values and units?
17:40:58 <fantasai> dbaron: Whatever defines <position>
17:41:25 <fantasai> glazou: So, we wait for that?
17:41:34 <fantasai> dbaron: Could probably handle as LC comment
17:42:29 <fantasai> ...
17:42:51 <fantasai> fantasai [... stuff about publishing]
17:43:16 <fantasai> fantasai: We'll plan to publish Thursday, send in pub request early, and just prep the draft after the call next week
17:43:31 <fantasai> glazou: Anything else on that topic?
17:43:35 <fantasai> nope
17:44:04 <fantasai> Topic: CSSOM
17:44:16 <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's pretty out of date. We should publish an update
17:44:28 <SimonSapin> +1 to publish
17:44:29 <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/
17:44:36 <fantasai> Bert: Agree in principle, but what is state of current editor's draft?
17:45:02 <plh> +1 to publish
17:45:32 <fantasai> Bert: List of changes since previous draft?
17:45:47 <fantasai> Bert: I don't object to publishing, but was wondering if anyone could tell me what actually changed since last time
17:46:04 <fantasai> glazou: I have the same comment, don't object to publishing, but would also like to know what changed
17:46:27 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish new WD of CSSOM with improved Changes list
17:46:32 <SimonSapin> Zakim, unmute me
17:46:32 <Zakim> SimonSapin should no longer be muted
17:46:33 <fantasai> Topic: Grids
17:46:48 <fantasai> SimonSapin: As discussed with Tab on ML
17:46:53 <fantasai> SimonSapin: syntax of grid-template-areas
17:47:02 <fantasai> SimonSapin: Would like hear from MSFT in particular
17:47:35 <fantasai> SimonSapin: String values inside that property as "parsed as CSS"
17:47:43 <fantasai> SimonSapin: We end up with possibilities of double-escaping
17:47:53 <fantasai> SimonSapin: Tab and I agree it would be better to define a small special parsing
17:48:02 <fantasai> SimonSapin: for content of templates inside string
17:48:07 <fantasai> SimonSapin: i.e. how to parse into identifiers
17:48:24 <fantasai> Rossen: OK, I will go over today and send email. Don't think we need to discuss over call
17:48:49 <fantasai> glazou: Another item I'd like to discuss, maybe not today, is charter. See message from Bert
17:49:08 <fantasai> glazou: Please review charter and send comments for next week
17:49:52 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
17:49:55 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:49:58 <Zakim> -AWK
17:49:59 <Zakim> -c_palmer
17:49:59 <Zakim> -??P24
17:50:00 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:50:00 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:50:01 <Zakim> -glazou
17:50:01 <Zakim> -??P13
17:50:01 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:50:02 <Zakim> -SylvaIng
17:50:02 <Zakim> -Plh
17:50:02 <Zakim> -dael
17:50:04 <Zakim> -abinader
17:50:04 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:50:05 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:50:05 <Zakim> -antonp
17:50:07 <Zakim> -koji
17:50:09 <Zakim> -Bert
17:50:12 <Zakim> -plinss
17:50:14 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:50:14 <Zakim> Attendees were dael, glazou, plinss, SylvaIng, SimonSapin, abinader, Stearns, +40.30.010.aaaa, antonp, Bert, Plh, AWK, fantasai, c_palmer, israelh, koji, dbaron, [Microsoft]
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18:17:43 <fantasai> Bert, can you remove the following line from the writing modes /TR draft? TabAtkins added it for some of his stuff, but it breaks when notes and floats are side-by-side, which happens in writing modes...
18:17:47 <fantasai> .heading, .issue, .note, .example, li, dt { position: relative; }
18:18:35 <Bert> From the default.css style sheet you mean? I guess so.
18:21:06 <Bert> OK, seems fixed now.
18:21:19 <Bert> fantasai, can you check?
18:22:20 <fantasai> Bert: yep, thanks!
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