15:56:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:56:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/19-wai-wcag-irc
15:56:08 <Joshue> zakim, this will be WCAG
15:56:08 <Zakim> ok, Joshue, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started
15:56:35 <Joshue> agenda + Continuing survey for 12th of November
15:56:35 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/
15:56:42 <Joshue> agenda + Institutional Memory Exercise
15:56:42 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/InstM12112013/
15:56:53 <Joshue> agenda + WCAG and the Future
15:56:53 <Joshue> We would like the group to think of how we can improve WCAG - discussion
15:57:03 <Joshue> agenda + News item - upcoming WCAG EM Note from the Eval TF.
15:58:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:58:22 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:58:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:58:32 <Joshue> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:58:32 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:58:42 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
15:58:52 <Joshue> zakim, mute Joshue
15:58:52 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:59:01 <Joshue> zakim, unmute Joshue
15:59:01 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
16:00:16 <AWK> AWK has joined #wai-wcag
16:00:16 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:52 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
16:01:02 <Zakim> +Kiran_Kaja
16:01:51 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:02:35 <adam_solomon> adam_solomon has joined #wai-wcag
16:02:58 <adam_solomon> im the ipcaller
16:03:14 <Joshue> zakim, [IPcaller] is Adam
16:03:14 <Zakim> +Adam; got it
16:04:41 <Zakim> +??P15
16:04:47 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P15 is Michael_Cooper
16:04:47 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper; got it
16:04:49 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
16:05:25 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
16:06:03 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
16:06:42 <Zakim> -Adam
16:07:54 <Joshue> Chair: Joshue
16:08:00 <Joshue> Scribenick:Katie
16:08:01 <AWK> zakim, agenda?
16:08:01 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:08:02 <Ryladog> scribe: Ryladog
16:08:03 <Zakim> 1. Continuing survey for 12th of November [from Joshue]
16:08:03 <Zakim> 2. Institutional Memory Exercise [from Joshue]
16:08:03 <Zakim> 3. WCAG and the Future [from Joshue]
16:08:03 <Zakim> 4. News item - upcoming WCAG EM Note from the Eval TF. [from Joshue]
16:08:37 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
16:08:37 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Continuing survey for 12th of November" taken up [from Joshue]
16:08:45 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my shows your action items across all groups
16:09:22 <Ryladog> Joshue: 1.1.1 test procedure concerns
16:09:33 <Ryladog> * /invite rrsagent #wai-wcag
16:09:53 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Aria-Edit:_F65:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_omitting_the_alt_attribute_on_img_elements,_area_elements,_and_input_elements_of_type_image
16:10:00 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results
16:10:11 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html Ryladog
16:11:15 <Ryladog> David: We are changing the failure - which opens the door to not failing the technique
16:11:37 <Ryladog> David: the community thinks I need to stick by my stance
16:11:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:11:57 <Ryladog> Joshua: James seemed to think that this is OK
16:12:05 <Kathy> +1 for David's comment
16:12:13 <Ryladog> David: I am not sure he felt that way
16:12:20 <adam_solomon> adam_solomon has joined #wai-wcag
16:12:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:12:50 <Ryladog> Joshua: James did have some reticence
16:13:08 <kerstin> kerstin has joined #wai-wcag
16:13:16 <AWK> q+
16:13:21 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:13:23 <kerstin> zakim ipcaller is me
16:13:40 <Ryladog> Joshua: I can see sometimes where alt is un-necessary also - this is to get the others up to speed
16:13:48 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
16:13:53 <kerstin> zakim, ip caller is me
16:13:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'ip caller is me', kerstin
16:13:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:13:56 <Ryladog> David: Sometimes folks do not understnad
16:14:04 <kerstin> zakim, ipcaller is me
16:14:04 <Zakim> +kerstin; got it
16:14:24 <Joshue> ack AWK
16:14:24 <Ryladog> Joshua: This is a deep subject
16:14:25 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
16:14:40 <Ryladog> AK: Is there agreement that we need to update F65?
16:14:59 <Ryladog> Joshua: I am not sure
16:14:59 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
16:14:59 <Zakim> kerstin should now be muted
16:15:59 <Ryladog> AK: That seems to be the important question. That is a very strong failure statement. Are we going to say that the hierarchy is important? If so we have to get rid of F65.
16:16:20 <Joshue> +q
16:16:22 <Ryladog> Joshua: the easiest way is to remove the F65
16:16:50 <Ryladog> David: Andrew, could you please elaborate?
16:17:46 <Ryladog> AK: In HTML5 we are discussing this, basically the documents are saying it is OK to rely on aria-labelled (?)
16:18:01 <Ryladog> q+
16:18:06 <Joshue> -q
16:18:29 <Joshue> ack Sail
16:18:37 <Ryladog> SP: I support David, and not using - tools and testers check for alt
16:18:52 <adam_solomon> q+
16:18:58 <Ryladog> SP: valididty needs to be kept in mind
16:19:00 <AWK> q+ to say that validity is not an issue with WCAG and WCAG doesn't need to worry about training costs as much as whether it works.
16:19:55 <Joshue> ack Ryla
16:20:28 <Joshue> KHS: I agree with David and Sailesh
16:21:16 <Joshue> ack adam
16:21:20 <Ryladog> SP: Where you cannot use HTML you need to use aria labelled-by for the image - AT uses that and alt is not. Better to do use aria described-by reather than aria labelled-by
16:21:30 <David> Q+
16:21:34 <adam_solomon> mic [roblems
16:21:36 <Joshue> ack AWK
16:21:36 <Zakim> AWK, you wanted to say that validity is not an issue with WCAG and WCAG doesn't need to worry about training costs as much as whether it works.
16:21:37 <Ryladog> Katie: I agree with David and Salesh
16:21:48 <Joshue> +q
16:22:13 <Ryladog> AK: Validity is not a requirement for WCAG compliance - so that I do not agree with.
16:22:49 <adam_solomon> just wantedto say that we shouldnt keep failures because of automatic checkers, and also if we keep the alt compatibilitywe need to be compatible for all of html (fieldset legend) and all the aria techs
16:23:18 <Ryladog> AK: We shouldnt say aria is good and not provide aria with a clear and consistent message for developers NOR solely based on how it has always been done
16:23:39 <Ryladog> AK: This is a topic that gets people excited
16:24:07 <Joshue> ack Dav
16:24:10 <Ryladog> AK: HTML Accessibility Task Force is our role to rehash that or refer to the good work that they did
16:25:08 <Ryladog> David: Andrew it looks like you are saying that the hierarchical order that ARIA provides is ??
16:25:23 <Ryladog> David: All are competing for the alt description
16:25:52 <Ryladog> David: the word of Alt is not label - it was intended for dynamic forms
16:26:36 <adam_solomon> imless concerned with the original intention as with current support in at
16:26:46 <Ryladog> David: I do not think that HTML A11Y TF were looking for a replacement for alt. We should speak with them. Steve Faulkner was extremely adament that this was a bad idea
16:27:09 <Joshue> ack me
16:27:17 <Ryladog> David: Andrew I agree with you Andrew about validation
16:28:42 <Ryladog> Joshua: I do not see why there is such a flurry of arguments about this. If it turns out that there is a lot of confusion. I think this failure is just some examples of what not to do
16:28:45 <MichaelC> regrets: Bruce_Bailey, Kathleen_Anderson, Alan_Smith, Peter_Thiessen
16:28:51 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013OctDec/0106.html
16:28:59 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
16:29:34 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
16:29:40 <MichaelC> chair: Joshue_O_Connor
16:29:41 <David> q+
16:29:45 <Ryladog> Joshua: this is an emotive issue
16:29:48 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
16:29:52 <Joshue> ack Dav
16:30:04 <MichaelC> meeting: WCAG
16:30:34 <marcjohlic> q+
16:31:02 <Ryladog> David: I do not want to be a fundamentalist about this - and I do not want to be shrill. I want to be clear that the emotive quality I do not want to put that label on myself. I want us to understand clearly what we are doing here
16:31:45 <Ryladog> David: 'Sleeping next to an elephant' it is not a small thing if we make this change
16:31:52 <Joshue> ack marc
16:32:10 <Ryladog> Joshua: We will not arbitrarily make a decisiion
16:33:43 <Ryladog> Adam: Can we say BTW given the ARIA spec and available APIs here are the acceptable usage - and to explain the options
16:34:01 <Ryladog> Joshua: yes something like a NOte to explain this is a good idea
16:35:10 <Ryladog> Joshua: We will talk about this. Andrew what do you think is missing in this Failure techniques? I am not a massive fan of thi failure technique
16:35:42 <Ryladog> AK: I agree with what David said about getting clarity from the HTML A11Y TF and the figcaption relevance is
16:36:09 <Ryladog> AK: We need to think of ways to address the concerns in the failure
16:36:39 <Ryladog> AK: Failure techniques are particularly powerful
16:37:09 <Ryladog> AK: Getting clarity is necessary
16:37:09 <Ryladog> Joshua: OK lets do that then
16:38:00 <Ryladog> Joshua: we do not need to recreate the wheel
16:38:16 <Ryladog> David: I can take an action item to
16:39:23 <Joshue> ACTION: Joshue to contact the HTML5 a11y TF regarding issue F65: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 to harmonise our advice
16:39:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-231 - Contact the html5 a11y tf regarding issue f65: failure of success criterion 1.1.1 to harmonise our advice [on Joshue O Connor - due 2013-11-26].
16:39:46 <Ryladog> Joshua: thank you all
16:39:53 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
16:39:53 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Institutional Memory Exercise" taken up [from Joshue]
16:40:21 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
16:40:21 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, Ryladog
16:40:26 <Joshue> TOPIC: Updated technique Using the group role to identify related form controls
16:40:37 <David> ACTION: David to discuss with HTML working group the WCAG WG group discussion of removing the failure of missing alt if an aria label, labelled by or title is present.
16:40:37 <trackbot> 'David' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dmacdona, dtodd2).
16:41:02 <Ryladog> David: Salesh sent me some code to test and I am still working on this
16:41:34 <Ryladog> Joshua: Salesh did update the example. Please let us know
16:41:42 <Joshue> s/Salesh/Sailesh
16:42:09 <Ryladog> Salesh: i tested the fildset legend it worked even with out role equals group. If you have role equals checkbox it works, even custom controls
16:42:36 <Ryladog> David: What may not be true?
16:42:56 <Ryladog> Salech: You can use fieldset legend
16:44:04 <Peter_Thiessen> Peter_Thiessen has joined #wai-wcag
16:44:06 <Joshue> zakim, take up item 2
16:44:06 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Institutional Memory Exercise" taken up [from Joshue]
16:44:30 <Ryladog> Joshua: I left the survey open, ther should be a few comments
16:44:38 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/InstM12112013/
16:46:11 <MichaelC> q+
16:46:41 <Joshue> ack Mich
16:47:14 <Joshue> zakim, queue
16:47:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'queue', Joshue
16:47:16 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
16:47:16 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:47:32 <Ryladog> MC: I agree with you for the most part, I think having the wiki is avialable to add content. Some of the exersize we need to do is the push folks memoroeis
16:48:24 <Ryladog> AK: I cannot think od anything beyond what i wrote in the survey
16:48:25 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
16:48:34 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
16:48:42 <Ryladog> AK: Some of the discussion pre-dated my joining
16:48:44 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
16:48:56 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:48:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
16:49:15 <David> link to institutional memory?
16:49:15 <Ryladog> AK: Logical is subjective
16:50:53 <Ryladog> David: 1.3.2 the whole thingabout tables goes back to WCAG 1 if you has a newspaper it would read a line from the first column - line by line - when things strted to get moed around with CSS that changed things
16:51:12 <Ryladog> Joshua: That is good David that should be added
16:51:26 <Ryladog> David: I rarely see these failures anymore
16:51:35 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/InstM12112013/
16:52:43 <David> is there a wiki?
16:54:28 <Ryladog> James: Mobile first UI is the field just go one on top of the order - but on a larger PC - it depsned on the sizing for the order
16:54:32 <Ryladog> Joshua: these discussion are useful. Let please capture hem in the wiki
16:56:16 <Ryladog> Joshua: Meaningful Sequence - might not seem as relevant as it was
16:57:12 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
16:57:12 <Zakim> agendum 3. "WCAG and the Future" taken up [from Joshue]
16:58:02 <Ryladog> Joshua: We want everyones input. What are hot buttons?
16:58:28 <Ryladog> Joshua: We do not folks to want to get the wrong message. Micheal can you frame this?
16:58:40 <Ryladog> MC: No
16:59:05 <Ryladog> MC: Lets see. I am nit sure what you want to cover Josh
16:59:34 <marcjohlic> q+
16:59:46 <Joshue> ack marc
16:59:46 <Ryladog> Joshua: OK lets talk about WCAG s it is, based on the fact that technoogies are changing
16:59:59 <David> q+
17:01:01 <Ryladog> Marc: I snet a note out about 'Language of Parts" - the difference between a site or content owner. User generated content issue is importnat for today where
17:01:26 <Ryladog> Joshua: You are saying who is really responsible for user generated content
17:01:33 <Ryladog> q+
17:01:38 <Joshue> ack Dav
17:02:10 <Ryladog> David: Institutional memory
17:02:14 <Ryladog> David: That was discussed alot in WCAG with Greg and Loretta
17:02:35 <Ryladog> David: especially with images
17:03:08 <Ryladog> David,
17:03:23 <Ryladog> David: the commubity is expecting us to review it and to plan
17:04:00 <Ryladog> David: we are still 5 years out with whatever we do expeciall wth dynamic changing of content
17:04:08 <Ryladog> David: How much do we need to notify AT as to what has changed
17:04:30 <Ryladog> David: We need a lot more work on forms stuff
17:04:54 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
17:04:54 <Zakim> I see Ryladog on the speaker queue
17:05:17 <Ryladog> David: there are artifacts from Magnification to 200% we knew hat was an issue at the time
17:05:27 <Ryladog> David maybe a re-arrangement
17:05:38 <kerstin> q+
17:05:48 <kerstin> zakim, unmute me
17:05:48 <Zakim> kerstin should no longer be muted
17:05:54 <Ryladog> David: Use of text and images of text
17:06:16 <Ryladog> David: A flow chart it is going to be very difficlut
17:06:25 <Ryladog> James we will be using SVG for that
17:07:09 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
17:07:09 <Zakim> I see Ryladog, kerstin on the speaker queue
17:07:25 <Ryladog> David: We may require SVG when it catches up
17:08:22 <Joshue> ack Ryla
17:09:03 <jamesn_> jamesn_ has joined #wai-wcag
17:09:11 <jamesn_> q+
17:09:48 <Joshue> KHS: Regarding UGC its about policy that organisations that allow something to go up are doing it accessibly via SLAs etc.
17:11:53 <Joshue> ack kerst
17:12:20 <Ryladog> Katie: Please join abd encourage others to join the new W3C SVG Accessibility Community Group
17:12:27 <Kathy> q+
17:13:05 <Ryladog> Joshua: any other suggestions fo rthe future? Strengths and weaknesses
17:13:20 <Joshue> ack james
17:13:22 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
17:13:22 <Zakim> kerstin should now be muted
17:13:27 <Ryladog> James: First of all the conformance requirments
17:13:56 <Ryladog> James: the ALL or NOTHING is unrealistic is out of date in todays wolrd
17:14:04 <Ryladog> James: Software alwats has bugs
17:14:23 <Ryladog> Joshua: That only workd for simole websites
17:14:46 <Ryladog> Joshua: Yes it does get compliacted
17:15:10 <Ryladog> Joshua: The retort to that would be we have to set a benchmark
17:15:18 <Joshue> s/workd/works
17:15:35 <Joshue> s/simole/simple
17:15:55 <Joshue> s/retort/resort
17:16:19 <Ryladog> James: Where WCAG has driven policy maker is ALL or NOTHING is a problem because we governements are haing to say your softawre must be perfect
17:17:02 <Ryladog> James: User generated conetxt - we have to address that - we cannot force a website to be responsiblefor what users tye in
17:17:20 <Ryladog> q+
17:17:55 <Ryladog> James: If the user types in a different language is problematic in that regard
17:18:09 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
17:18:09 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
17:18:10 <Zakim> 3. WCAG and the Future [from Joshue]
17:18:10 <Zakim> 4. News item - upcoming WCAG EM Note from the Eval TF. [from Joshue]
17:18:17 <Ryladog> David: There could be a mechanism to say I am inserting this info in French
17:19:05 <Ryladog> Joshua: we should provide a structure for users to input correct content
17:19:53 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/community/svga11y/
17:20:12 <Ryladog> James: Where is the SVG A11Y
17:20:20 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/community/svga11y/participants
17:20:22 <Ryladog> MC: He felt like he wsa not getting enough people
17:20:37 <Ryladog> MC: He being Doug Sheppers
17:20:58 <Ryladog> Katie: It had Doug and Chaals
17:21:01 <Joshue> s/wsa/was
17:22:02 <Ryladog> MC: If there is an interest to finalize this a a serious group and woukd like to particptae being difficult for industery to participate in
17:22:13 <Ryladog> Joshua: We woud like to get folks in there
17:22:38 <Ryladog> James: I am getting question is my work how do I use SVG or should I use canvas?
17:23:13 <Ryladog> MC: There are many SVG editors
17:23:56 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
17:23:56 <Zakim> I see Kathy, Ryladog on the speaker queue
17:24:30 <Ryladog> Katie: there are several SVG editing tools
17:24:34 <Kathy> q-
17:25:28 <Ryladog> Kathy: I agree with James about conformance. And campatability testing with AT - how we shoudl apppraoch that under WCAG and to put out some sort of guidance around that
17:25:37 <Ryladog> Joshua: Yes that would be helpful
17:26:10 <kerstin> +1 for more guidance concerning compability testing with AT
17:26:42 <Ryladog> Kathy: many of the QA teams they are not testing around WCAG they are just using JAWS to test - not really looking at WCAG conformance. I was involved in WCAG Eval TF
17:26:49 <Zakim> -kerstin
17:27:12 <David> q+
17:27:19 <Ryladog> Kathy: there are issues where some techniques that dont work on Mac and VoiceOver. We should preovide some guidance
17:27:31 <Joshue> ack Katie
17:27:34 <Joshue> ack Davi
17:27:41 <Joshue> ack ryla
17:29:01 <Ryladog> David: Institutional memory on Accessibility Support we did not want to take on as we were exoecting that say in a University to dedicate a few people to be devoted to creating a Accessibility support database
17:29:29 <Ryladog> David: Outside of W3C technoogies is where we got into Accessibility Support
17:30:12 <Ryladog> Joshua: Any other comments?
17:30:25 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
17:30:25 <Zakim> agendum 4. "News item - upcoming WCAG EM Note from the Eval TF." taken up [from Joshue]
17:30:26 <Joshue> s/exoecting/expecting
17:30:48 <Ryladog> Joshua: We are going to have to review that
17:31:05 <Zakim> -Kiran_Kaja
17:31:16 <Joshue> rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html Joshue
17:31:28 <Joshue> zakim, please part
17:31:28 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were David_MacDonald, Joshue, Sailesh_Panchang, Kiran_Kaja, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Adam, Michael_Cooper, Kathy_Wahlbin, kerstin, Marc_Johlic,
17:31:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
17:31:31 <Joshue> rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html Joshue
17:31:32 <Zakim> ... James_Nurthen
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18:42:40 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:42:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
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