00:02:33 acolwell has joined #html-wg 00:04:05 mjs has joined #html-wg 00:07:10 mjs has joined #html-wg 00:08:44 kennyluck has joined #html-wg 00:09:40 glenn has joined #html-wg 00:10:11 darobin has joined #html-wg 00:22:54 Takahiro has joined #html-wg 00:27:05 acolwell has joined #html-wg 00:29:57 glenn has joined #html-wg 00:31:05 glenn_ has joined #html-wg 00:34:25 glenn__ has joined #html-wg 00:36:33 dsinger has joined #html-wg 00:38:28 darobin has joined #html-wg 00:42:49 paulc has joined #html-wg 00:43:22 trackbot, start meeting 00:43:24 RRSAgent, make logs public 00:43:24 Zakim has joined #html-wg 00:43:26 Zakim, this will be html_wg 00:43:26 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 00:43:27 Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference 00:43:27 Date: 14 November 2013 00:44:00 adrianba has joined #html-wg 00:45:10 zakim, what is the code? 00:45:10 sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is 00:45:35 tobie has joined #html-wg 00:45:57 plh has joined #html-wg 00:46:18 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 00:47:18 Eliot has joined #html-wg 00:50:01 Tomoyuki has joined #html-wg 00:51:43 silvia has joined #html-wg 00:53:22 denis has joined #html-wg 00:54:14 We are trying to get the conference setup with a polycom. Please be patient. 00:54:19 myakura has joined #html-wg 00:55:07 darobin has joined #html-wg 00:56:48 paulc: I'm assuming this channel be the one used for all html-wg proceedings? The wiki states #html-media 00:57:05 shan has joined #html-wg 00:58:12 dsinger has left #html-wg 01:00:50 astearns has joined #html-wg 01:00:53 I will fix the wiki, 01:01:36 HJLEE has joined #html-wg 01:02:34 The teleconference code with be HTML (4865) once we are setup. 01:03:08 zakim, list conferences 01:03:08 I see Team_(crypto)00:35Z, UW_MdCap()7:00PM, WAI_Indie()7:00PM, W3C_AC(*Shenzhen)7:00PM active 01:03:11 also scheduled at this time is Team_(eo)00:07Z 01:03:14 StephanSteglich_ has joined #html-wg 01:04:09 Zakim, call Shenzhen 01:04:09 sorry, MikeSmith, I don't know what conference this is 01:04:21 trackbot, start meeting 01:04:22 Eliot has joined #html-wg 01:04:23 RRSAgent, make logs public 01:04:25 Zakim, this will be html_wg 01:04:25 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 01:04:26 Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference 01:04:26 Date: 14 November 2013 01:04:31 plh3 has joined #html-wg 01:04:55 Zakim, room for 10? 01:04:57 ok, MikeSmith; conference Team_(html-wg)01:04Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 0204Z 01:05:07 ddavis has joined #html-wg 01:05:12 yuka_o has joined #html-wg 01:05:14 Noriya has joined #HTML-WG 01:05:17 shoko has joined #html-wg 01:05:25 aizu has joined #html-wg 01:05:41 Takahiro has joined #html-wg 01:05:50 a12u has joined #html-wg 01:06:09 zakim, this is 26631 01:06:09 glenn__, I see Team_(html-wg)01:04Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 26631". 01:06:18 zakim, this will be 26631 01:06:18 ok, glenn__; I see Team_(html-wg)01:04Z scheduled to start 2 minutes ago 01:06:21 markw__ has joined #html-wg 01:06:22 cyril has joined #html-wg 01:06:28 zakim, please call shenzhen 01:06:28 ok, glenn__; the call is being made 01:06:29 Team_(html-wg)01:04Z has now started 01:06:30 +Shenzhen 01:06:32 yang has joined #html-wg 01:06:48 nkic has joined #html-wg 01:07:06 mikesmith: i took care of it 01:07:50 Present+ Adrian_Bateman 01:07:51 Arno_ has joined #html-wg 01:08:04 Present+ Glenn_Adams 01:08:23 Present+ Arnaud_Braud 01:08:38 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 01:10:38 edoyle has joined #html-wg 01:11:12 pal has joined #html-wg 01:11:27 darobis_ has joined #html-wg 01:11:32 http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda 01:11:33 http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda 01:11:40 r12a has joined #html-wg 01:11:40 minami has joined #html-wg 01:11:45 n5206 has joined #html-wg 01:11:52 http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda 01:11:56 hayato has joined #html-wg 01:12:01 kazho has joined #html-wg 01:12:04 giuseppep has joined #html-wg 01:12:11 paulc: I'm getting "The conference is restricted at this time" when I try to join the call. 01:12:41 acolwell: discussing it now 01:13:03 ddorwin: ok. 01:13:04 fan has joined #html-wg 01:13:34 …MikeSmith is looking into it I believe. 01:13:41 hoyang has joined #html-wg 01:13:57 Starting to discuss agenda. 01:16:36 jjj has joined #HTML-wg 01:18:27 acolwell, I can skype you in from my laptop for now if you want 01:19:02 honestly the sound quality from the polycoms in these big rooms is close to useless anyway 01:20:47 Zakim, who's on the phone? 01:20:47 On the phone I see Shenzhen 01:20:53 igarashi has joined #html-wg 01:21:18 +Amy 01:21:24 -Amy 01:22:30 noriya_ has joined #html-wg 01:23:12 acolwell: Someone else was able to dial in. Please could you try again? The code is 26631 (CONF1) 01:24:10 +Aaron_Colwell 01:25:05 adrianba: hi 01:25:56 joesteele_ has joined #html-wg 01:26:27 rniwa has joined #html-wg 01:27:30 kotakagi has joined #html-wg 01:27:35 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 01:27:43 Present+ Jonathan_Jeon 01:28:37 wonsuk has joined #html-wg 01:29:01 present+ mark_vickers 01:29:29 Noriya has joined #HTML-WG 01:31:34 Noriya_ has joined #HTML-WG 01:35:05 + +1.925.648.aaaa 01:35:06 Noriya__ has joined #HTML-WG 01:35:38 Zakim, aaaa is me 01:35:38 +joesteele_; got it 01:36:16 nicks has joined #html-wg 01:37:34 gwm has joined #html-wg 01:39:01 kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 01:39:09 zakim, who is on the phone? 01:39:09 On the phone I see Shenzhen, Aaron_Colwell, joesteele_ 01:40:36 giuseppep has joined #html-wg 01:41:13 hoyang has left #html-wg 01:41:15 hoyang has joined #html-wg 01:41:26 hoyang has left #html-wg 01:41:28 All MSE LC bugs: http://tinyurl.com/lfq3scr 01:42:10 droh has joined #html-wg 01:42:18 cyns has joined #html-wg 01:42:22 scribe: cyns 01:42:31 TOPIC: MSE last call bug discussion and moving to CR 01:43:24 PC: 23663 resolved fixed 01:43:33 Zac has joined #html-wg 01:43:51 acolwell: you're breaking up. You may want to type a summary 01:43:52 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 01:43:59 hoyang has joined #html-wg 01:44:07 made proposed text changes 01:44:07 acolwell: We can't really hear you 01:44:18 Zac has left #html-wg 01:44:29 jjj has joined #HTML-wg 01:44:31 actual change: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23663#c2 01:44:42 provided links to discussion about primer and preference for algorithmic text instead of duplicate informative text 01:45:39 q+ 01:46:00 PC: updated 2.4.3 with changes proposed in comment 1 01:46:20 ack adrianba 01:46:36 pal_ has joined #html-wg 01:46:36 saki has joined #html-wg 01:47:17 AB: we talked about this on the last conferece call and the conclusion was that in general this was a duplicate request of the ones for an MSE primer. The spec is currently focused on what is needed to implement MSE, and we've asked for volunteers for an authoring guide 01:47:34 denis has joined #html-wg 01:47:46 AB: this bug is for more details on how to use API, we still have that request pending. Aaron made a small change to clarify 01:48:06 q+ 01:48:27 PC: Aaron has implemented the chagne that was previously agreed upon. response to comment is that we need a volunteer 01:48:40 plh3 has joined #html-wg 01:49:00 CC: I am considering volunteering. 01:49:23 CC: we also talked about where it would be. is webplatforms.org the right place? 01:49:48 http://www.webplatform.org/ 01:49:54 PC: webplatform.org is a project in w3 to document as much of web platform as possible. anyone can supply documentation 01:50:16 EG: we would welcome that contact on webplatform.org 01:50:20 s/webplatforms.org/www.webplatform.org/ 01:51:00 PC: Eliott can help you get started. I know you were worried about how much work. On webplatform.org, you can start an outline and crowdsource the rest. 01:51:17 PC: only outstanding bug is 23619 01:51:21 Bug 23169 - reconsider the jitter video quality metrics again 01:51:46 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169 01:52:06 PC: this was originally closed. David Singer asked to have it reopened. I've been trying to get David or Apple to give us some feedback. 01:52:22 PC: David is at the AG meeting. Sending Cyril to go get him 01:53:54 PC: bug 23441 01:54:09 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23441 01:54:21 Pieer Lemieux repoppended. asking for a text change. 01:55:02 text implied that if text was not listed in table it could never be used 01:55:15 +1 01:55:19 PC: ask the editors to implement change in comment 3 01:55:19 q+ 01:55:32 ack cyr 01:55:33 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23441#c3 is the proposed change, 01:55:58 Does this also Adrian's concern about the language being strong enough? 01:56:03 ack acol 01:56:10 yes 01:56:13 ok 01:56:19 lgombos has joined #html-wg 01:56:41 cyns_ has joined #html-wg 01:56:47 scribe: cyns 01:56:57 scribe: cyns_ 01:56:59 dsinger has joined #html-wg 01:57:32 PC: the last bug 23169 01:57:36 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169#c13 01:58:22 saki has joined #html-wg 01:58:28 DS: the comment was that the sum of all frame delays. If you're a small amount late, it won't matter because it will hit the same refresh 01:59:06 DS: 2000 frames there were each 5 seconds late is very different from 5 frames that are miliseconds late 01:59:22 DS: we weren't sure this would help us detect that the media engine is getting into trouble 01:59:28 q? 01:59:32 Orginal problems: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169#c0 01:59:38 DS: we weren't sure that this metric was useful. 02:00:20 see bug comment for details 02:01:38 q+ 02:02:00 ack cyril 02:02:14 CC: who would provide the threshold? the applciation or the engine? 02:02:24 DS: intitalized to a default, then app would set it 02:02:26 ack 02:03:21 BW: Option 3 is best. can't have a bunch of isolated late frames without having a lot stacked up behind very late ones, or you'll see drop frames. 02:03:44 nicks_ has joined #html-wg 02:04:21 BW: you'd want to sample more often. Behind each very late frame, eitehr all the ones behind it are rendered and they are also late, or they are dropped. I feel like you can do it with a modified version fo the existing text. 02:05:17 DS: 2.5 seconds late will result in a burst of late seconds. 10 frames late is badly late, but 10 frame lateness may not be distinguisable from 50 frames taht are slightly late. There may be a serious grey area. 02:06:00 BW: Isn't that the same example? distinguising the one that is a lot late from many that are a little late. 02:06:05 q+ 02:06:09 DS: there is a grey area 02:06:14 q+ 02:06:20 BW: I don't think it is very big 02:06:37 s/eitehr/either/ 02:06:37 PC: 3 alternatives. I've heard one vote for #3. 02:06:42 q? 02:07:00 Should we defer this metric until we have more implementation experience with MSE? Netflix and YouTube are already shipping adaptive streaming players based on top of MSE w/o this and are essentially using prefixed versions of totalVideoFrames and droppedVideoFrames. It doesn't feel like this should block MSE from moving forward since this is essentially an extension of the HTMLVideoElement. 02:07:14 DS: this was the most minor part. If we want more experience with this metric before changing, that's ok 02:07:57 ack acolwell 02:08:35 PC: what we're saying is that there is no measure of late frames in those 2 numbers? 02:08:59 DS: today we have totalvideoframes, droppedvideoframes, and totalframedelay. 02:09:31 PS: If you only have the total delay, you don't have a measure of slightly late and noticeably late 02:09:37 ack adrianba 02:10:05 anssik has joined #html-wg 02:10:09 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 02:10:25 AB: I think what aaron was suggesting was similar. I think Aaron's suggestion is that people aren't currently using the frame delay in their experimental implementations based on browswers currently supporting this. 02:10:33 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #html-wg 02:10:47 AB: I think Aaron's proposal is that we move forward and he doesn't think this is blocking. 02:11:04 +1 02:11:19 It may be that we need experience with multiple media engines, and finding the cases where we are not adapting appropriately because of the 'strange' behavior of some media engine(s). We did not intend this as a blocking issue (indeed, expected it to be deferred as we posted it after a deadline). 02:11:23 plh has joined #html-wg 02:11:43 AB: my comment was going to be that we should have the chagnes Mark talked about to chagne the approach so it's based on frame rate. Perhaps we can mark this at risk, and determine during impl whether this is correct, doesn't matter, or needs to be modified. 02:12:02 PC: Can I have a better definition of what mark wants to change 02:12:10 I'm fine with including Mark's proposed text 02:12:29 change is in comment 15 02:12:34 see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169#c15 02:12:57 ChristianFuhrhop has joined #html-wg 02:13:36 PC: we talked offline, DS wasn't expecting to block last call. could this be marked at risk and ask for impl 02:13:36 s/chagnes/changes/ 02:13:59 DS: Mark's changes will allow us to cover the important part of the bug. 02:14:10 PC: editors, do you know what changes you need to make? 02:14:34 s/chagne/change/ 02:14:49 AB: Mark made a proposal for specific chagnes. DS was that ok? 02:15:03 DS: yes, his changes fixed my points 1&3, 4 can be handled late 02:15:12 PC: what section is this in? 02:15:19 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#videoplaybackquality 02:15:39 so, summary, fix points 1-3 by editing, mark totalFrameDelay as 'at risk' or under consideration, get implementation experience with a variety of media engines and uses, and see where we go? 02:15:44 edoyle has joined #html-wg 02:16:10 PC: make changes in explanation in section 5 VideoPlaybackQuality Object 02:16:19 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 02:16:31 PC: all last call bugs are processed with good disposition. Next step is propose to go to CR 02:16:38 PC: here's what we need to do. 02:16:52 danny_ has joined #html-wg 02:16:54 PC: 1. editors need to finish resolving bugs and prodcue candidate CR draft 02:17:03 ok. Is this just a new WD or do I have to make a special version? 02:17:14 PC: assume we'll have that by end of November. faster is ok too 02:17:21 AB: approx Nov 30. 02:17:23 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:17:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html Arno_ 02:17:32 I think that is reasonable. 02:18:05 PC: 2 do a CFC in task force and/or in workign group. run simultatiously 02:18:11 (no objections) 02:18:12 s/prodcue/produce/ 02:18:22 PC: 3 what is the minimum time for CR to run 02:18:35 s/workign/working/ 02:18:38 RRSAgent, make logs public 02:18:41 PL: There are some features hard to test without implementations 02:19:00 PC: yes, get out of CR by knowing that combo of impl and test results 02:19:11 PL: so we won't be able to exit for awile? 02:19:35 PC: asking for minimum. there is no maximum. need to warn people how long they have 02:19:47 3-6 months seem reasonable since IE & Chrome already have implementations started 02:19:58 PC: assuming we'll use same criteria as html5, 2 independent interop implementaitons (not 10) 02:20:10 PC: I propose 3 months. 02:20:44 for example, see HTML5 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#status-of-this-document 02:20:44 CC: do we know how many tests? 02:20:56 "This Candidate Recommendation is expected to advance to Proposed Recommendation no earlier than 01 September 2014." 02:20:58 kotakagi has joined #html-wg 02:21:17 PC: no we need to do that work. discuss at Dec 3 taskforce meeting. TF needs to move from speccing to testing 02:21:30 PC: 3 months 02:21:33 (no objections) 02:21:51 PC: 4. Are there any secitons we should mark at risk? 02:22:30 s/secitons/sections/ 02:23:02 PC: If we have a section taht we're not sure we're going to get interoperability proof for, if that's marked at risk, then we can cut that feature from the spec and go forward. 02:23:27 PC: if you haven;t warned that the feature is at risk, they you have to go back to last call before going to PR. 02:23:29 s/taht/that/ 02:23:57 nsakai has joined #html-wg 02:24:04 totalFrameDelay and appendStream() are the only 2 I can think of. TotalFrameDelay because of the previous discussion. AppendStream() because the Stream API is not stable. 02:24:07 PC: you want to get the list right, but it's a bit of a black art to get list right, because it's based on impl experience. we've already have metrix suggested for at risk 02:24:37 PC: videoplaybackqualtiy object is a candidate for at risk. Is it the whole object? 02:24:46 AB: can we mark one attribute at risk. 02:24:54 dsinger has joined #html-wg 02:24:59 I'd prefer just marking the one attribute 02:25:02 PC: "one or more of the attributes" allows you to drop all or some 02:25:09 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#sourcebuffer-stream-append-loop 02:25:19 q+ 02:25:22 CC: 3.5.6 Stream Object may be at risk. 02:25:25 -Shenzhen 02:25:44 zakim, call shenzhen 02:25:44 ok, denis; the call is being made 02:25:45 +Shenzhen 02:26:10 Marcus_Altman__ has joined #html-wg 02:26:21 q? 02:26:26 CC: depends on Streams API which is in flux 02:26:36 CC: are our refrences stable enough? 02:26:54 PC: HTML5, so we're our own worst enemy 02:26:56 lgombos has joined #html-wg 02:27:05 PC: File API is now a last call, not working draft 02:27:35 Robin: these are all marked as informative references, but I think that's a bug and they should be normative. 02:27:41 CC: yes, they are normative 02:28:04 Robin: file API is a problematic dependency, that's not its first last call. some parts are stable. 02:28:15 nsakai_ has joined #html-wg 02:28:44 PC: Streams API is marked as editors draft, was just made working draft Nov 5. 02:28:47 q? 02:28:56 ack adrianba 02:29:00 -Shenzhen 02:29:03 q+ to say that Streams API should not be considered stable at all 02:29:21 q- 02:29:23 zakim, call shenzhen 02:29:23 ok, ddavis; the call is being made 02:29:24 Jirka has joined #html-wg 02:29:25 +Shenzhen 02:29:28 AB: Cyril's point is that streams concept in gerenal is in flux, so you should rely on the status of working draft. 02:29:39 what AB said 02:29:55 AB: disucussed this at the last conf call, options for stream dependency 02:30:05 nsakai has joined #html-wg 02:30:08 AB: option 1 mark sections that are dependent on stream at risk 02:30:11 Zakim, call shenzhen 02:30:11 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 02:30:12 +Shenzhen.a 02:30:38 zakimm, who's on the phone? 02:30:47 Zakim, who's on the pone? 02:30:47 I don't understand your question, MikeSmith. 02:30:50 Zakim, who's on the phone? 02:30:50 On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), Aaron_Colwell, joesteele_, Shenzhen.a (muted) 02:30:53 nope 02:30:55 AB: option 2: are we insulated enough from details of stream, just take it as a param, and details of streams spec left out. Might be blocked from CR, but wouldn't have to modify text 02:31:01 Zakim, drop Shenzhen.a 02:31:01 Shenzhen.a is being disconnected 02:31:02 -Shenzhen.a 02:31:05 s/disucussed/discussed/ 02:31:07 zakim, unmute shenzhen 02:31:07 Shenzhen should no longer be muted 02:31:07 zakim, unmute Shenzhen 02:31:08 Shenzhen was not muted, denis 02:31:14 AB: option 3: stream changes enough taht we drop it 02:31:19 just heard some beeping 02:31:27 zakim, call shenzhen 02:31:27 ok, ddavis; the call is being made 02:31:28 +Shenzhen.a 02:31:32 AB: my opionion is that we don't want to drop it, so we need to wait and see. 02:31:48 -joesteele_ 02:31:57 PC: AB does not want to mark at risk or remove. 02:32:00 I agree w/ adrian. We don't want to drop it 02:32:03 -Shenzhen.a 02:32:12 zakim, call shenzhen 02:32:12 ok, ddavis; the call is being made 02:32:13 +Shenzhen.a 02:32:20 zakim, who's on the phone? 02:32:20 On the phone I see Shenzhen, Aaron_Colwell, Shenzhen.a 02:32:21 q? 02:32:26 -Shenzhen 02:33:08 can you post the conf code again - my phone was disconnected 02:33:16 zakim, code? 02:33:16 the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), adrianba 02:34:21 AC: I'd like to keep it in there. I think I agree that we really only rely on the name of stream object 02:34:47 AC: right now msft ships with a prefixed stream object. will that block interop and moving out of CR 02:35:06 PC: msft policy is to leave prefix until spec leaves CR. Is that correct? 02:35:25 AB: that is a judgement call. not the same for every spec. 02:36:00 AB: want more demonstration of interop before droppign prefix. I don't see the prefix stream as a blocker for testing. I think we can make progress. 02:36:16 PC: Stream NOT marked as risk 02:36:41 CC: filed a bug that informative references should be informative 02:36:53 q? 02:37:08 s/droppign/dropping/ 02:37:23 CC: I agree stream is an important feature, especially for embedded device. It's a feature we need. You could maybe leave it out for a first version. 02:37:55 joesteele_, please try again 02:38:00 CC: on the stream API spec, it's completely changing. maybe the new one will be the same from a usage point of view, but maybe not. not marking as risk is risky 02:38:04 dsinger has joined #html-wg 02:38:05 PL: what is plan b? 02:38:31 PL: what happens if stream API changes in ways that don't work for this spec? 02:39:08 AB: there's broad recognition that we need the concept of stream. lots of use cases, this is one. I belive the discussions will lead ot a solution that works for MSE 02:39:53 AB: I'm not convinced there will be a complete chagne that willl not work for MSE. I don't think we need a plan b. Plan B is to go back to last call and try again with this feature. 02:40:05 PL: are we talking to streams about our requirements and schedule? 02:40:09 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #html-wg 02:40:24 I have been talking with the Streams editor that works for Google 02:40:28 PC: that's something the chair should do. I'll take an action if we agre 02:40:47 CC: what is the downside of marking a feature at risk? 02:41:19 PC: usually causes it to be tested first. people who think it's important will work hard to demonstrate that it works. 02:41:56 PC: If people don't think MSE should go forward without Streams, then we shouldn't mark it at risk. 02:42:07 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:42:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith 02:42:28 PC: another Plan B. If streams API changes too much, we can pull the part we want into our spec. The Director won't like that. 02:42:41 myakura has joined #html-wg 02:42:45 lgombos_ has joined #html-wg 02:42:54 for the minutes, the bug I filed regarding normative references is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23818 02:43:00 PC: Plan B is that we make our intent really clear to web apps 02:43:28 AB: the reson we have stream in MSE is so we can consume streams created from other specs, likely doens't make sense to suck it into MSE 02:43:33 again, what AB siid 02:43:44 s/siid/said/ 02:43:46 PL: Please share intended features and also timing 02:44:07 nsakai_ has joined #html-wg 02:44:31 zakim, who's on the phone? 02:44:31 On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, Shenzhen.a 02:44:42 PL suggests creating an explicit action to communicate intentions to webapps re: Streams API 02:45:16 PC: summary: editors produce a candidate CR draft by Nov 30. fix normaitve/informative reference bug. Draft presented to TF and WG to go into CR. Draft would indicate minimum CR period of 3 months. The only feature at risk is the one we idenitifed earlier. Chairs have action to coordinate with Web apps on stream object. 02:46:01 ACTION: paulc to coordinate with Web Apps on the streams API, give them MSE requirements and timeline 02:46:01 Created ACTION-231 - Coordinate with web apps on the streams api, give them mse requirements and timeline [on Paul Cotton - due 2013-11-21]. 02:46:45 kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 02:46:47 PC: objections from people in the room. CFC will be in early december, and you can object then if you wish. 02:47:02 s/objections from/no objections from/ 02:48:17 chaals has joined #html-wg 02:49:40 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:49:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html shan 02:50:26 -Aaron_Colwell 02:51:33 zakim, who's on the phone? 02:51:33 On the phone I see Shenzhen.a 02:51:40 zakim, drop Shenzhen.a 02:51:40 Shenzhen.a is being disconnected 02:51:42 Team_(html-wg)01:04Z has ended 02:51:42 Attendees were Shenzhen, Amy, Aaron_Colwell, +1.925.648.aaaa, joesteele_, Shenzhen.a 02:51:57 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #html-wg 02:53:00 zakim, this will be html 02:53:00 ok, denis; I see HTML_WG()8:00PM scheduled to start 113 minutes ago 02:53:08 mz-modeltaxi has joined #html-wg 02:53:09 zakim, call shenzhen 02:53:09 ok, denis; the call is being made 02:53:10 HTML_WG()8:00PM has now started 02:53:12 +Shenzhen 02:53:28 joesteele_, can you try to call zakim? 02:53:28 zakim, code? 02:53:28 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), denis 02:55:17 +joesteele_ 03:00:40 kurosawa_ has joined #html-wg 03:02:57 ddavis has joined #html-wg 03:08:42 nkic has joined #html-wg 03:10:29 -joesteele_ 03:10:30 nkic has joined #html-wg 03:10:49 junil has joined #html-wg 03:14:12 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 03:14:53 plh3 has joined #html-wg 03:17:25 yosuke has joined #html-wg 03:19:51 markw has joined #html-wg 03:20:06 pal_ has joined #html-wg 03:20:26 minami has joined #html-wg 03:21:17 kazho has joined #html-wg 03:21:18 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 03:21:57 zakim, who's on the phone? 03:21:57 On the phone I see Shenzhen 03:22:16 gwm has joined #html-wg 03:22:19 zakim, code? 03:22:19 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), denis 03:22:56 +joesteele_ 03:23:12 shan has joined #html-wg 03:23:12 paulc: we're going to process bugs for EME 03:23:15 ChristianFuhrhop has joined #html-wg 03:23:23 ... we might continue after lunch 03:23:26 Noriya has joined #HTML-WG 03:23:29 RRSAgent, make logs public 03:23:35 scribenick: darobin 03:24:07 tantek has joined #html-wg 03:24:15 Topic: MSE bugs 03:24:16 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 03:24:24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0015.html 03:24:40 paulc: David Dorwin gave an update about some changes he'd made 03:24:50 Nicks has joined #html-wg 03:24:51 ... I responded with an email of the outstanding bugs 03:25:15 cyril has joined #html-wg 03:25:16 ... David responded overnight with an enumeration of the order in which we should discuss these bugs [see link above] 03:25:30 Jirka has joined #html-wg 03:25:34 Takahiro has joined #html-wg 03:25:40 ... he hasn't relettered them, but they're in an order that he feels best for discussion 03:26:04 ... he has also enumerated a subset of the bugs that are lower priority 03:26:20 ... I would like to close as many as we can 03:26:44 hoyang has joined #html-wg 03:26:46 zakim, who's on the phone? 03:26:46 On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), joesteele_ (muted) 03:26:46 zakim, who is on the phone? 03:26:47 On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), joesteele_ (muted) 03:26:47 yuka_o has joined #html-wg 03:26:53 chen has joined #html-wg 03:27:05 zakim, unmute Shenzhen 03:27:05 Shenzhen should no longer be muted 03:27:05 zakim, unmute Shenzhen 03:27:06 zakim, unmute Shenzhen 03:27:07 Shenzhen was not muted, denis 03:27:07 Shenzhen was not muted, ddavis 03:27:18 zakim, who is on the phone? 03:27:19 On the phone I see Shenzhen, joesteele_ (muted) 03:27:53 rniwa has joined #html-wg 03:27:59 paulc: since we have joesteele_ here, and I don't know what TZ he's in, should we do any of his items first? 03:28:00 taocai has joined #html-wg 03:28:07 danielkim has joined #html-wg 03:28:18 don't worry about my items -- I am sitting at home 03:28:22 davidd: we can jump to 17660 03:30:48 Topic: d) Bug 17660 - need token relative with user identity for a new generateKeyRequest parameter 03:31:18 test 03:31:32 I cannot understand well enough to respond to questions unless they are in the IRC 03:31:33 hoyang1 has joined #html-wg 03:31:35 tobie has joined #html-wg 03:32:17 paulc: david, do you want to introduce? 03:32:22 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17660 03:32:32 david: this was filed by joe a long time ago 03:32:42 adrianba: this is one of my actions that I didn't complete 03:32:48 ACTION-54? 03:32:48 ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-09-26 -- CLOSED 03:32:48 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54 03:33:03 [that's not the right action] 03:33:26 adrianba: joe initially raised this issue about the need to provide information in createSession, which for his use case was about user information 03:33:34 ... we actually have a more general issue here 03:33:55 ... which is that playready provides a way of having app specific info included in the key request 03:34:13 ... a while ago you could package that up with EME in the same request you used to the license server 03:34:18 q+ 03:34:26 ... more that ??% have used this functionality 03:34:27 https://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/54 03:34:33 renoirb has joined #html-wg 03:34:40 s/??%/50%/ 03:34:48 plh has joined #html-wg 03:34:51 ... so in our implementation today we have an additional parameter which allows people to provide this data 03:35:03 ... there may be a more general solution to this that may address joesteele_'s concern 03:35:07 s/more that/more than/ 03:35:15 ack me 03:35:15 Media TF action item on Adrian is still outstanding. 03:35:27 ... the CDN can decide what it wants to do with this information later 03:35:35 https://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/54 03:36:15 paulc: so ACTION-54 is still outstanding 03:36:21 ack Dd 03:36:24 david: so I think this causes interop problem 03:36:37 the more general solution I proposed was to "bless" a direct communication channel between the CDM and the application where necessary - using the keyRequest/update channel 03:36:42 ... this makes it more difficult and likely that other DRMs will be supported 03:36:50 ... so I'm not a fan of adding a parameter that decreases interop 03:36:52 mkelly has joined #html-wg 03:37:00 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 03:37:26 q+ 03:37:26 joe? 03:37:50 did you ask a question? all I heard was "joe" 03:38:02 markw: I think there are two separate issues 03:38:23 rniwa_ has joined #html-wg 03:38:25 ... adrianba's proposal is about the app providing an extra piece of data to the CDN which it then includes in message 03:38:42 ... whereas david's something else 03:39:02 s/david's/joe's/ 03:39:05 adrianba: so I think there are a number of separate but related issues 03:39:17 I am in favor of Adrians proposal -- but it is separate issue as Mark pointed out and does not address my whole concern 03:39:18 kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 03:39:24 but would help 03:39:29 s/something else/communication between CDM and client-side application code/ 03:39:32 silvia1 has joined #html-wg 03:39:43 ... my action is to summarise why I think providing information to the CDM which it can decide what to do with 03:39:51 ... that certainly could cause issues with interop 03:40:16 ... if you didn't already need to have a CDM-specific server point, with CDM-specific logic processing 03:40:17 q+ 03:40:25 ... in practice I don't thikn it causes a problem 03:40:47 ack markw 03:40:52 ... so I think there are multiple items related by a common thread 03:41:31 I agree -- in practice this will not be a problem -- for either of our proposals 03:41:31 ... I think there are a number of apps that have logic that varies with using different CDMs 03:41:41 s/thikn/think/ 03:41:46 ... while it 's possible to write apps that can operate with multiple CDMs 03:41:47 Marcus_Altman has joined #html-wg 03:41:57 ... in practice people will need to do something that's CDM-specific 03:41:58 q? 03:42:00 q+ 03:42:08 ack dd 03:42:23 ddorwin: some of those 50% have very big @@ and for that reason don't want to port 03:42:34 ack markw 03:42:35 ack me 03:42:40 s/have very big @@/are already supporting playready/ 03:42:53 markw: our principle here is to place the burden on the service provider rather than on the user 03:43:05 ... it should be that if the service providers need to adapt then it's the whole idea 03:43:22 ... I can see a situation in which the information is passed inside the key message 03:43:32 ... if there's a second system that doesn't support this 03:43:44 yang has joined #html-wg 03:43:46 ... then the provider need to update to pass the information out of band 03:44:00 masatakayakura has joined #html-wg 03:44:08 ... so it seems that this is a transitionary thing while there's a provider that supports a key system that doesn't support this 03:44:32 ... so the question should be how important we think it is to support that transtion 03:44:32 that assumes that the mechanism you are referring to is not a significant feature add for the provider 03:44:48 in those cases the provider will *not* want to make the transition 03:45:02 and will instead rely on existing DRMs 03:45:14 Topic: q) Bug 22909 - Needs non-normative Security Considerations section 03:45:28 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22909 03:45:42 q+ 03:45:42 @joesteele_: I didn't assume it's not a significant feature. I just said that whether we include it in the specification depends on how important we think it is to support this transition. 03:45:45 ddorwin: I dropped some of the action done 03:46:20 markw: I had actions to address these bugs for non-norm security and privacy sections 03:46:29 ... to get discussion going I provided some text 03:46:36 ... I expect comments, not polished 03:46:41 text starts here: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#security 03:46:44 ... encourage anyone with expertise to review 03:46:46 q- 03:46:50 ... text in the ED 03:46:56 ... [link above] 03:47:22 ... in both cases users rely on the UA to look out for their interests 03:47:30 And for bug 22910: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#privacy 03:47:34 ... we have a case in which the key system and CDM are from different people 03:47:59 ... the CDM implementers are going to have to provide information to the UA about privacy and security properties 03:48:08 ... so that UAs can make informed decisions 03:48:20 ... we should thnk about how to make that happen 03:48:33 ... it's an important aspect of the ecosystem we're creating 03:48:34 q+ 03:48:41 q+ 03:48:41 ... UAs should meet users' expectations 03:48:47 olivier has joined #html-wg 03:48:57 paulc: I take it these sections satisfy the AI 03:50:13 adrianba: we have feedback saying that if they're non-normative we shouldn't use RFC 6919 keywords 03:50:15 pal has joined #html-wg 03:50:51 paulc: you've left the action open? 03:50:55 markw: the bugs are still open 03:50:57 nicks_ has joined #html-wg 03:51:07 ... do we close these bugs and let people raise more on specific issues? 03:51:10 paulc: that's typical 03:51:20 ... it'll get too confusing 03:51:38 q+ 03:51:42 ... mark as resolved, and people who want frther changes file additional bugs 03:52:08 ack me 03:52:16 ack dd 03:52:24 ack wsel 03:52:39 wseltzer: W3C staff 03:52:44 ... member of the Privacy IG 03:52:59 ... thanks Mark for sending us notice of these sections, we've been trying to get this reviewed 03:53:05 ... will increase the urgency 03:53:28 ... the points you've made here, interaction between browser and CDM, are interesting and we want to review 03:53:38 ... we can try to see if the Security group can find people to review 03:53:43 paulc: there's a thread 03:54:03 ... wseltzer is referring to a dialogue between the TF and the PING 03:54:09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Oct/0046.html 03:54:52 ac adr 03:54:55 ack adr 03:54:58 adrianba: the reason I didn't resolve the bugs 03:55:03 s/ac adr// 03:55:09 ... I put markw's text into the specs 03:55:23 ... wasn't sure if we wanted to do something in spec to indicate stability of these sections 03:55:50 Zac has joined #html-wg 03:55:58 ... I want people to understand that we welcome solid feedback here 03:56:37 q+ 03:56:44 darobis has joined #html-wg 03:56:50 paulc: we've done this before, you can add markers to indicate this 03:57:06 ... we give the editors some leeway to indicate to people that this isn't a fait accompli 03:57:30 q+ 03:57:40 markw: two things 03:57:48 ... I agree we should put markers in the spec 03:57:57 ... leave the bugs open and indicate that in the bugs 03:58:09 ... and also ask people to raise new bugs for new issues 03:58:28 ... also, I was wondering if wseltzer is volunteering to find someone to review the secruty section 03:58:40 s/secruty/security/ 03:58:52 paulc: any suggestions on where we might find such an expert 03:59:11 ... webappsec? 03:59:19 q+ to say I'll ask the WebSec IG 03:59:49 glenn__: just a reminder I made a link to RFC6973 about privacy considerations for internet protocols, maybe the list of authors can help 03:59:56 paulc: if it's just privacy it doesn't help 04:00:01 note that the TAG can help coordinate if this group would find it usefu 04:00:21 hoyang1 has left #html-wg 04:00:22 hoyang1 has joined #html-wg 04:01:01 q- 04:01:07 ACTION: Paul to work with Wendy to make sure we get a security review 04:01:07 Created ACTION-232 - Work with wendy to make sure we get a security review [on Paul Cotton - due 2013-11-21]. 04:01:35 paulc: I would prefer to close the bugs 04:01:46 ... we've given the inital attempt, we want review 04:01:51 junil_ has joined #html-wg 04:02:05 ... any object to closing 22909 or 22910? 04:02:08 [silence] 04:02:24 hoyang1 has left #html-wg 04:02:25 CLOSING bugs 22909 and 22910 04:02:25 hoyang1 has joined #html-wg 04:02:41 pal: to help others schedule their review, what's the timeline? 04:02:52 hoyang1 has left #html-wg 04:02:53 hoyang1 has joined #html-wg 04:03:14 paulc: I'd know the answer if I knew the results from the comments 04:03:26 ... is Dec 15 reasonable? 04:03:44 wseltzer: I will make sure I can get an answer on whether that's reasonable 04:04:08 RESOLUTION: we plan to give a month from today to review these sections 04:04:47 Topic: t) Bug 23733 - Consider prohibiting support of active content by CDMs 04:04:53 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23733 04:05:34 markw: this came from the text I initially proposed there was a mention of active content 04:05:52 ... some people commented that we might simply want to prohibit CDMs from processing active content 04:06:02 q+ 04:06:04 ... it would certainly simplify our security section 04:06:05 q+ 04:06:18 ack mark 04:06:57 pal: I commented on that bug 04:06:57 wilhelm has joined #html-wg 04:07:07 ... what does active content really mean? 04:07:21 ... if this is made normative, we have to think really hard about the definition of that term 04:07:37 +1 on active content being too vague. 04:07:40 ... if I read the definition in RFC 4949 pretty much everything falls under that 04:08:21 ack pal 04:08:39 ack joe 04:08:56 my comment was basically agreeing with pal -- and also to point out that BD+ uses active content by this definition 04:09:31 q+ 04:09:43 lgombos__ has joined #html-wg 04:09:56 ack pal 04:10:10 saki has joined #html-wg 04:10:13 q+ 04:10:23 pal: hopefully everyone agrees that the client executing arbitrary native code in a trusted env is a really bad idea 04:10:35 ... but the definition of active content in the document is much broader than that 04:10:51 ... there are other examples of content that would all under that, e.g. PDF 04:11:12 I don't think we want things like PDF running in CDMs 04:11:50 paulc: so how is this term actually used? 04:12:03 pal: the question was about whether to make the prohibition normative 04:12:10 ... my comment is in reaction to that 04:12:27 ... unless active content can be defined in a way that makes sense, there cannot be such a prohibitions 04:13:01 paulc: so what markw wanted was an addition to the security section for this 04:13:17 ... I hear people saying that we should understand what we're doing but not hearing yay or nay 04:13:23 pal: with current text, nay 04:13:28 ack mark 04:13:35 mark_vickers: I would say no under that definition 04:13:45 ... also point out that the RFC is information, not standards track 04:14:17 markw: we need a better definition, I just saw that the text was already there, wondering if it was good enough 04:14:36 ... executing code from the internet that may have access to system API would raise a security question 04:14:56 ... we should keep this under review, the question of excluding some active content remains open 04:15:24 q? 04:15:25 paulc: so we keep this open, and should ask the security reviewer when we find them 04:15:25 q+ 04:15:40 ack mark 04:15:44 markw has joined #html-wg 04:15:49 mark_vickers: if this is the only definition we have, I would say we don't want to do that 04:15:59 ... if we have something we should exclude, we should list that 04:16:20 ... if we want to say no to executing arbitrary code from an unknown source, fine 04:16:34 .... but I'm not sure what we're going for since the text is too vague 04:17:25 glenn__: just a note to markw, I defined active object content in the DIS standard 2003 04:17:32 ... there is at least one definition 04:18:03 DASE 04:18:19 http://www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a100/a_100_1.pdf 04:18:27 paulc: other opinions? 04:18:33 see "active object content" definition in section 3.3 04:18:58 ddorwin: difference between seeing something and acting on it, and actually running it 04:19:15 q+ 04:19:21 ... I think running active content in the context of a CDM, hardware or root, would be bad 04:19:35 q+ 04:19:37 acl pal 04:19:38 pal: what's needed is for someone to make a proposal for something better than current definition 04:19:50 ... unless there's a better proposal we can't leave this open forever 04:19:59 q+ 04:20:10 mark_vickers: I want to close because I don't udnerstand what this is doing, so unsure how to help wirte text 04:20:23 ... things I've heard so far seem to apply to all parts of the UA 04:20:34 ... so why are we applying this here? 04:20:45 q+ 04:20:51 paulc: so if HTML5 had a security consideration section, why would it say something different? 04:20:54 mark_vickers: right 04:21:04 isn't the key concern about "unrestricted code execution" not the particular type of code being executed? 04:21:05 paulc: so maybe because CDM is out of scope? 04:21:23 mark_vickers: but there are also lots of other things that are linked to by the UA, nothing CDM unique about this 04:21:44 wseltzer: webappsec probably has some definition that could be useful here 04:22:31 ... there's a difference between the user trusting a CDM accepting arbitrary content, and a process doing the same but without the sort of opaque power that the CDM has 04:22:31 q- 04:22:40 q- 04:22:42 q- 04:22:53 ack mark_vickers 04:22:55 q- 04:23:18 Topic: j) Bug 20944 - EME should do more to encourage/ensure CDM-level interop 04:23:18 krit has joined #html-wg 04:23:25 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20944#c31 04:23:39 s/rich/rice/ 04:24:01 paulc: appears to be an open ended question 04:24:10 ... outstanding since last phone call 04:24:27 ddorwin: I think the privacy and security issues were the last outstanding from that draft 04:24:47 q+ 04:25:08 paulc: I think this issue was there in the FPWD 04:25:28 ... sotd now points to bits for review 04:25:36 ChristianFuhrhop2 has joined #html-wg 04:25:40 q? 04:25:42 ... but 20944 is still outstanding 04:26:23 q+ to ask what efforts are being made to get DMR reps participating in the discussion 04:26:24 q+ 04:26:32 markw: want to point out that 1) my summary of roc's proposal of what should be a possible resolution, I think it wouldn't work for some people but I haven't heard back from anyone 04:26:40 s/ddorwin: I think the privacy and security issues were the last outstanding from that draft/ddorwin: I think this and the privacy and security issues were the last outstanding from the discussion around FPWD/ 04:26:51 [summarises the comment] 04:27:15 ... both 2 and 3 would be progress 04:27:19 q? 04:27:29 ack markw 04:27:32 q+ 04:27:37 ack Mike 04:27:37 MikeSmith, you wanted to ask what efforts are being made to get DMR reps participating in the discussion 04:27:51 MikeSmith: so this discussion has been pretty much going nowhere 04:28:15 ... part of the reason is that the people participating are not those in a position to comment on whether the proposals are acceptable 04:28:29 igarashi has joined #html-wg 04:28:36 ... we should elicit direct public feedback from CDM vendors as to whether this is acceptable, and if not why not 04:28:44 ... but there has been no effort to make this happen 04:28:44 q+ 04:28:52 ack pal 04:29:03 pal: this group can't compel anyone to respond to anything 04:29:20 nsakai has joined #html-wg 04:29:36 ... what happens if no response is received? 04:29:57 ack pal 04:30:26 Tomoyuki has joined #html-wg 04:30:30 darobin: if there's no response on an important bug, then at the next transition, the Director might conclude that there has not been broad review, and decline the transition request 04:31:02 paulc: this is important enough, the team might ask for a Director's call before LC (instead of CR) 04:31:07 q? 04:31:08 ack mark 04:31:17 ack mark 04:31:34 mark_vickers: I just think that looking at these proposals, if you substitute CDM for UA it would be clearly unreasonable 04:31:58 ... the publicity of APIs for instance wouldn't work, e.g. file system APIs 04:32:22 ... otherwise, why isn't this a general W3C policy on components of a UA 04:32:23 q+ to say that the comparison to the FileSystem API is not relevant 04:32:24 jjj has joined #HTML-wg 04:32:25 q+ 04:32:30 3 comments: 04:32:31 ... I think the CDM is being singled out in an unfair manner 04:32:32 1) Does what is being discussed even address the real concerns/objections? 04:32:33 2) I worry about putting requirements to document any internal implementation? It could result in a) slow development (imagine writing publicly visible design documentation for your entire project) b) lead to stale and useless documentation, and c) discourage supporting additional platforms 04:32:33 3) As for a registry, the same key system name can be implemented in different ways on different platforms. 04:32:34 ack dd 04:34:08 q+ to say that CDM vendors are not being singled out; what is being is asked here is not unreasonable; what is being asked is for CDM vendors to provide the same information that other systems do 04:34:10 ack Mike 04:34:10 MikeSmith, you wanted to say that the comparison to the FileSystem API is not relevant and to say that CDM vendors are not being singled out; what is being is asked here is not 04:34:13 ... unreasonable; what is being asked is for CDM vendors to provide the same information that other systems do 04:34:19 q+ 04:34:26 MikeSmith: I completely disagree about this being unreasonable 04:34:47 ... I don't think that other people involved in the bug discussion find this unreasonable 04:35:05 ... there's discussion of the level of detail that a vendor could provide without compromising the security of their system 04:35:18 ... it's certainly not true that CDM vendors are being singled-out 04:35:27 It would be more reasonable to ask the CDM vendors to disclose the details of the message requests and responses. That would at least have some privacy value. 04:35:34 ... the discussion is about exposing just the information to enable open source implementations to interact with their system 04:35:51 ... but again, we haven't had a chance to interact with someone who might find this unreasonable 04:35:56 ... I think we're treading water 04:36:01 q? 04:36:15 ack mark 04:36:25 markw: difference between item 1 and items 2-3 04:36:31 ... the latter are small and reasonable 04:36:47 +1 to Marks comment -- those are easily discoverable in any event 04:36:55 ... there is a Play Ready porting kit 04:37:04 ... item 2 would just require [very fast talking] 04:37:11 ... so it seems very reasonable to require 04:37:13 #1 is far too ague to be actionable 04:37:27 s/ague/vague/ 04:37:52 ... for item 3, if you've built a UA that uses specific components from an OS, it's pretty reasonable to ask that the APIs be published 04:38:03 ... seems reasonable and encourages interop 04:38:17 ... we can't require people to do this, but we can make it a condition of registration 04:38:23 pal: not going to argue for solution 04:38:27 I disagree that this would help interop in any significant way 04:38:27 s/[very fast talking]/you to map from the playready API to the CDM API so everyone doesn't have to determine that independently/ 04:38:32 ... it would be goood for this group to have a plan 04:38:39 ... it won't close itself 04:39:00 paulc: I think I'd like to talk to some members of the TF about this 04:39:09 ... may have to go to the Team to figure out how to handle this bug 04:39:15 ... don't think there are action items on this 04:39:19 #joesteele_ Robert O'Calaghan provides a more detailed description of #1 earlier in the bug 04:39:33 ... I am concerned that we will have to anticipate how the Director will want this bug handled or not handled 04:39:52 q+ I'm prepared to give initial feedback on what the team response would be 04:39:54 ... if the group WONTFIXes this, we'll get an FO 04:40:19 paulc: I think that MikeSmith's comments about this bug languishing are factual 04:40:38 q+ to say I'm prepared to give initial feedback on what the team response would be 04:41:10 ACTION: Paul to report back about the plan for 20944 due 2013-12-15 04:41:10 Created ACTION-233 - Report back about the plan for 20944 due 2013-12-15 [on Paul Cotton - due 2013-11-21]. 04:41:23 ACTION-233 due 2013-12-15 04:41:23 Set ACTION-233 Report back about the plan for 20944 due 2013-12-15 due date to 2013-12-15. 04:41:36 MikeSmith: God forbid that I ever were the Director 04:41:50 ... but my response would be "what have you done to resolve this?" 04:42:01 ... there hasn't been sufficient action on this bug 04:42:12 ... it's not clear what we can do 04:42:22 ... I'm giving my feedback early to gain time 04:42:54 Topic: c) Bug 17202 - Explicitly document how keys are to be shared 04:42:58 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17202 04:43:34 q+ 04:43:37 ddorwin: I think these bugs are open for reasons different from their original summaries 04:43:41 q- 04:43:50 ack me 04:43:57 My comments are in the bug 04:44:03 ... I propose that we close these bugs and ask for use cases to address 04:44:40 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21869 04:44:53 q? 04:45:13 ddorwin: I suggest we take action agreed upon, close those bugs, and for unmet use cases open new bugs 04:45:37 I do not want 21869 closed without action 04:45:44 paulc: are you suggesting we close these bugs and look at new proposals 04:45:53 ddorwin: lots of discussion on the UCs behind the proposals 04:46:00 ... I think we're down to no change necessary 04:46:07 ... if something missing, he can file new bug 04:46:25 joe, the proposal is for you to file a new bug to track the action 04:46:28 q+ 04:46:38 tantek has joined #html-wg 04:46:40 no -- the issue is that the spec does not explicitly say that sharing of keys is allowed -- it must say that 04:46:41 ddorwin: I think that this is similar to before, close and people can open more specific bugs 04:46:41 joe, because the bugs have drifted from the original point 04:46:46 or point me to the text that says it 04:47:10 I am tired of opening bugs to say the same thing -- key sharing is a requirement 04:47:29 paulc: suggesting we can just action this bug but it says new — is there a concrete proposal that we have already adopted? 04:47:41 ... I understand your point on the first bug but not on the second 04:48:05 ddorwin: I have gone through those many pages recently, but there's no actionable item in the summary — don't know what to do 04:48:21 I need clarity on the CDMs ability to store keys -- that is the title of the bug 04:48:27 what needs clarification? 04:48:38 adrianba: do we have spec text proposed? ddorwin said no. So get spec text from the person who wants the spec changes 04:48:42 q? 04:48:49 paulc: okay, let's do these bugs one at a time 04:48:55 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17202 04:49:05 see Joe proposal for 17202: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0022.html 04:49:10 I am fine with closing 17202 -- Davids solution made sense to me 04:49:16 ack pal 04:49:25 ack joe 04:50:22 [group argues about what joesteele_ meant on IRC] 04:50:44 q+ 04:50:49 [ongoing IRC exegesis] 04:51:36 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 04:51:44 joesteele_: for 17202 ddorwin pointed out that a UC could be solved by framing a player @@ okay to close with no change to spec 04:52:08 paulc: objection to closing? 04:52:48 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17202#c3 04:52:54 The editors will take into consideration the unrelated in the above link 04:53:13 -Shenzhen 04:53:26 acolwell has joined #html-wg 04:53:32 Zakim, call Shenzhen 04:53:32 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 04:53:34 +Shenzhen 04:53:37 paulc: is that wording in c3 or other discussion? 04:53:48 ddorwin: mostly c3, but I will be sure not to break his UC 04:54:20 ddorwin: in summary I don't think we want to share content keys between sessions 04:54:21 -Shenzhen 04:54:26 Zakim, call Shenzhen 04:54:26 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 04:54:27 ... joesteele_ wants to share the key hierarchy 04:54:27 +Shenzhen 04:54:39 ... I will try to specify that the former is not allowed, while allowing the latter 04:54:50 yes -- I want to share the key hierarchy -- not the content key 04:55:00 I can't hear you guys anymore BTW 04:55:08 Topic: p) Bug 21869 - Need clarity on stored keys for CDMs 04:55:11 Zakim, drop Shenzhen 04:55:11 Shenzhen is being disconnected 04:55:12 -Shenzhen 04:55:13 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21869 04:55:16 Zakim, call Shenzhen 04:55:16 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 04:55:17 -joesteele_ 04:55:17 +joesteele_ 04:55:17 +Shenzhen 04:56:05 -Shenzhen 04:56:26 RRSAgent, make logs public 04:56:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html wseltzer 04:57:14 ok -- you guys dropped me. I will try ti dial back in 04:57:20 -joesteele_ 04:57:21 HTML_WG()8:00PM has ended 04:57:21 Attendees were Shenzhen, joesteele_ 04:57:30 cya later! 05:04:51 adrianba has joined #html-wg 05:08:03 kennyluck has joined #html-wg 05:15:23 adrianba_ has joined #html-wg 05:17:02 saki has joined #html-wg 05:17:28 adrianba__ has joined #html-wg 05:21:51 plh has joined #html-wg 05:22:20 jjj has joined #HTML-wg 05:23:50 adrianba_ has joined #html-wg 05:24:37 nsakai has joined #html-wg 05:25:05 mz-modeltaxi has joined #html-wg 05:26:02 a12u has joined #html-wg 05:26:14 igarashi has joined #html-wg 05:27:18 myakura has joined #html-wg 05:30:42 silvia has joined #html-wg 05:34:01 rniwa has joined #html-wg 05:34:43 denis has joined #html-wg 05:35:26 Tomoyuki has joined #html-wg 05:39:47 jjj has joined #HTML-wg 05:40:23 shan has joined #html-wg 05:43:24 danny_ has joined #html-wg 05:48:15 saki has joined #html-wg 05:48:26 rniwa has joined #html-wg 05:48:28 igarashi has joined #html-wg 05:49:06 igarashi has left #html-wg 05:51:05 ChristianFuhrhop has joined #html-wg 05:52:39 igarashi has joined #html-wg 05:56:33 Arno_ has joined #html-wg 05:59:21 pal has joined #html-wg 05:59:35 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 05:59:39 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 06:00:05 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 06:00:09 markw has joined #html-wg 06:00:47 kurosawa has joined #html-wg 06:00:51 rniwa has joined #html-wg 06:01:06 myakura has joined #html-wg 06:01:31 Zakim, code? 06:01:31 the conference code is hidden, joesteele_ 06:01:57 nsakai has joined #html-wg 06:02:29 paulc has joined #html-wg 06:03:49 dsinger has joined #html-wg 06:03:49 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 06:03:49 shoko has joined #html-wg 06:04:04 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 06:04:48 Zakim, code? 06:04:49 the conference code is hidden, joesteele_ 06:04:49 Jirka has joined #html-wg 06:05:29 mz-modeltaxi has joined #html-wg 06:05:49 taocai has joined #html-wg 06:06:41 ScribeNick: adrianba 06:06:43 Noriya has joined #HTML-WG 06:06:47 nkic has joined #html-wg 06:06:54 Scribe+ Adrian_Bateman 06:07:02 hoyang has joined #html-wg 06:07:08 dsinger_ has joined #html-wg 06:07:11 tobie has joined #html-wg 06:07:19 WayneCarr has joined #html-wg 06:07:24 nicks has joined #html-wg 06:07:24 kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 06:07:25 zakim, call Shenzhen 06:07:25 sorry, adrianba, I don't know what conference this is 06:07:53 denis has joined #html-wg 06:08:24 ok 06:08:25 minami has joined #html-wg 06:08:44 chaals has joined #html-wg 06:08:51 Zakim, call shenzhen 06:08:51 sorry, MikeSmith, I don't know what conference this is 06:09:00 zakim, this will be html 06:09:00 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, denis 06:09:04 Eliot has joined #html-wg 06:09:04 Youngsun_Ryu has joined #html-wg 06:09:17 zakim, this will be HTML_WG 06:09:17 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, denis 06:09:40 darobin has joined #html-wg 06:09:45 zakim, list 06:09:45 I see Team_(webperf)05:37Z, AB_ABW3()12:00AM, Team_(indie-ui)06:02Z, Team_(crypto)00:35Z, Team_(svg)06:02Z, UW_MdCap()7:00PM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15 06:09:46 gwm has joined #html-wg 06:09:48 ... minutes 06:10:56 yuka_o has joined #html-wg 06:11:36 darobis has joined #html-wg 06:11:51 zakim, this will be html 06:11:51 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, denis 06:11:58 zakim, this will be HTML_WG 06:11:58 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, denis 06:12:09 sunyang has joined #html-wg 06:13:05 kazho has joined #html-wg 06:13:46 Ralph has joined #html-wg 06:14:19 zakim, list 06:14:19 I see Team_(webperf)05:37Z, AB_ABW3()12:00AM, Team_(indie-ui)06:02Z, Team_(crypto)00:35Z, Team_(svg)06:02Z, UW_MdCap()7:00PM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15 06:14:23 ... minutes 06:14:51 zakim, this is HTML_WG 06:14:51 MikeSmith, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be HTML_WG". 06:15:01 zakim, this will be html 06:15:01 ok, Ralph; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start 15 minutes ago 06:15:10 zakim, call Shenzhen 06:15:10 ok, denis; the call is being made 06:15:12 HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started 06:15:13 +Shenzhen 06:15:18 zakim, code? 06:15:18 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), denis 06:15:20 pal_ has joined #html-wg 06:15:24 thank you Ralph very much 06:15:36 Ralph has left #html-wg 06:15:52 + +1.503.264.aaaa - is perhaps Wayne_Carr 06:15:57 -Shenzhen 06:15:58 RRSAgent, pointer 06:15:58 See http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-irc#T06-15-58 06:16:05 zakim, call Shenzhen 06:16:05 ok, denis; the call is being made 06:16:06 +Shenzhen 06:16:07 +joesteele_ 06:16:13 zakim, please call shenzhen 06:16:13 ok, glenn__; the call is being made 06:16:14 +Shenzhen.a 06:16:16 chen has joined #html-wg 06:16:18 zakim, who's on the phone? 06:16:18 On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), Wayne_Carr, joesteele_, Shenzhen.a (muted) 06:16:26 zakim, unmute Shenzhen 06:16:26 Shenzhen was not muted, denis 06:16:36 zakim, who's on the phone? 06:16:36 On the phone I see Shenzhen, Wayne_Carr, joesteele_, Shenzhen.a (muted) 06:16:40 zakim, unmute shenzhen.a 06:16:40 Shenzhen.a should no longer be muted 06:16:49 -joesteele_ 06:16:52 -Shenzhen 06:17:09 zakim, who's on the phone? 06:17:09 On the phone I see Wayne_Carr, Shenzhen.a 06:17:17 -Shenzhen.a 06:17:21 +joesteele_ 06:17:25 zakim, pleaes call shenzhen 06:17:25 I don't understand 'pleaes call shenzhen', glenn__ 06:17:29 TOPIC: Bug 17673 - Define Initialization Data for implementations that choose 06:17:29 to support the ISO Base Media File Format 06:17:34 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 06:17:34 zakim, please call shenzhen 06:17:34 ok, glenn__; the call is being made 06:17:35 +Shenzhen 06:17:42 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673 06:17:57 paulc: we had some action items on johnsim to work on corner cases and to draft a proposal 06:18:15 ... i don't think we've seen any action - what do we do? 06:18:17 zakim, who's on the phone? 06:18:17 On the phone I see Shenzhen, Wayne_Carr, joesteele_ 06:18:21 -Shenzhen 06:18:30 ddorwin: there are two models for this 06:18:44 ... for bmff, cenc is one of the possible modes of encryption 06:18:49 ... but others could be 06:18:54 zakim, call shenzhen 06:18:54 ok, glenn__; the call is being made 06:18:55 +Shenzhen 06:19:04 ... we're not putting data into initdata the way the iso bmff spec is written 06:19:15 zakim, who's on the phone? 06:19:15 On the phone I see Shenzhen, Wayne_Carr, joesteele_ 06:19:19 ... the target is cenc because it is easier for the main use cases 06:19:25 ... but this isn't as flexible 06:19:33 ... would like to have a discussion and move forward 06:19:38 -Shenzhen 06:19:47 dsinger: i need a little education on the problem 06:19:51 -joesteele_ 06:20:06 ... if we said initdata is sinf followed by any pssh then we would have every thing 06:20:20 +joesteele_ 06:20:29 ... there are other things in sinf that you might want even in cenc case 06:20:32 q? 06:20:40 kazho has joined #html-wg 06:20:47 igarashi has joined #html-wg 06:20:49 Zakim, call Shenzhen 06:20:49 ok, denis; the call is being made 06:20:51 +Shenzhen 06:21:01 ddorwin: i'm not an iso expert but i believe the problem is pssh don't always appear with sinf? 06:21:22 dsinger: i'm suggesting you get the scheme information inside the sinf 06:21:29 ... it may be empty with cenc sometimes 06:21:42 ... you could say get sinf if not empty and then pssh 06:21:49 ... i think this covers everything 06:22:24 dsinger: [quickly describes the moov box] 06:22:37 ... the data starts with one time initialisation 06:22:48 ... pssh might appear with the initialisation or later in the fragment 06:23:08 ... today the API returns the concatenated PSSH since the beginning 06:23:19 q+ 06:23:33 ... i'm saying prepend that with SINF 06:23:44 iga has joined #html-wg 06:24:05 ddorwin: you're proposing to always append pssh to the sinf 06:24:06 fan_ has joined #html-wg 06:24:15 paulc: do we know where this belongs in the spec? 06:24:22 ddorwin: yes, the BMFF section 06:24:44 dopi has joined #html-wg 06:24:53 markw: my recollection of the history was that we went through the exercise of describing it with sinf 06:25:05 ... and we found some problems and then we were talking about going back to pssh 06:25:26 ... henri asks the question of why we need to support formats other than CENC 06:25:40 ... he wanted justification for other formats 06:25:57 q? 06:26:22 "…it sounds like using |sinf| might also be incompatible with SampleGroups. This means that supporting other scheme types limits our ability to support features of specific scheme types." 06:26:33 ^ from the bug 06:26:54 cyns has joined #html-wg 06:26:59 ack adrian 06:27:00 giuseppep has joined #html-wg 06:27:52 adrianb: one option (see david singer), find the sinf box and then, if cenc, append pssh box 06:28:07 ... and use the result as init data 06:28:30 ... does the implementation need to keep sinf if future pssh are found 06:29:00 ... initidata is fired everytime pssh is found 06:29:29 davids: need to keep sinf around 06:29:37 edoyle has joined #html-wg 06:30:18 adrianb: second option, UA parses sinf. if cenc, provide pssh only. if other, TBD in future specification 06:30:47 ... initdata is sequence of boxes 06:31:58 q+ 06:32:21 nicks_ has joined #html-wg 06:33:11 davids: propose that, everytime sinf is found, append any pssh and provide as initdata. later in the file, if pssh are found, just provide those as init data 06:33:46 q? 06:34:12 ddorwin: we are saying the first needkey event would have a different set of boxes? 06:34:18 dsinger: yes? 06:34:44 ack markw 06:34:57 markw: i think one of the things mentioned in the bug is that could be a sinf in each track? 06:34:58 markw: what about one sinf in each track? 06:35:06 dsinger: yes, but also pssh in each track 06:35:18 markw: so there could be multiple sinfs not just one 06:35:27 ... but we haven't addressed henri's question 06:35:59 dsinger: i don't understand how you can decrypt the data without the SINF 06:36:18 markw: you don't have to have the all the data to decrypt 06:36:26 dsinger: so why pass the PSSH at all? 06:36:43 markw: you might get the initdata from another source 06:37:02 dsinger: but there are systems that need SINF data 06:37:41 dsinger: i think the mechanism of getting all the SINF with a non-empty encrpytion atom 06:38:02 stevefaulkner has joined #html-wg 06:38:12 ... and adding PSSH will give you everything you need and often SINF will not be included for CENC 06:38:44 [some discussion about whether to limit to CENC or more open] 06:38:55 s/or more/or be more/ 06:39:12 dsinger: think it should be possible to use this with fairplay 06:39:21 pal: is there a proposal on the table? 06:39:29 q+ 06:39:58 ack adr 06:41:05 Suggestion: given a movie atom, give me the sinf boxes from each track (possibly optimized to say if it has a non-empty scheme information box), plus the pssh boxes (if any); for a movie fragment, give me pssh boxes (if any). 06:41:05 I ran MediaStreamTrack.getSources(function(result) {console.log(result);}); in the console of chrome31 06:41:43 That allows the API to confirm the scheme type, the original format, and so on, and is quite general. 06:42:00 It gives the cenc 'track encryption' box when present. 06:43:41 q+ 06:44:03 ack dd 06:44:22 ddorwin: we think the current text is buggy but i don't remember the details 06:44:23 it sounds like using |sinf| might also be incompatible with SampleGroups. This means that supporting other scheme types limits our ability to support features of specific scheme types. 06:45:34 [discussion about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673#c10] 06:45:41 dsinger: this about a different topic 06:45:50 ... this is a related but different problem 06:46:06 ... you can set-up defaults at the beginning of the file 06:46:08 q+ 06:46:12 ... you can also include sample groups 06:46:37 ... as you walk down the file you can have data that belongs to different groups 06:46:45 ... the first version of CENC used that 06:46:53 q- 06:46:53 ... so you can have runs of samples using different groups 06:47:09 ... later, you wanted to introduce new sample group descriptions after you started the movie 06:47:26 ... in the latest version you can include group descriptions in later fragments 06:47:47 ... if we don't get the sample groups out later then we won't be able to use them 06:47:56 ... and the question is how to handle this 06:48:08 ... question is how to handle sample groups later in the move 06:48:36 paulc: do we agree that we should put comment 10 into a separate bug? 06:48:42 dsinger: the second half, yes 06:48:47 q+ 06:48:52 paulc: and the solution? 06:49:13 dsinger: i need to refresh my understanding of the boxes - maybe you don't need this at the api level 06:49:34 markw: the assumption is there is sufficient information in PSSH to know what keys it needs to fetch 06:49:39 ... for that PSSH is sufficient 06:49:47 ... you don't need this in the initdata 06:50:08 paulc: still think this is an orthogonal bug - resolve it that way 06:50:24 ddorwin: sounds like this is resolved 06:50:38 dsinger: can markw write a response to comment 10? 06:50:42 markw: yes 06:51:12 paulc: and we need to tell johnsim that his actions are done 06:51:30 yoav has joined #html-wg 06:51:36 adrianba: think we have the general outline - might need some help 06:51:42 dsinger: happy to help with editing 06:52:29 ddorwin: 21869 - we will have to revisit 06:52:45 ddorwin: 17750 - adrian has done work on close - will need to revisit in telcons 06:53:12 ddorwin: 21798 - recommendation for media key error codes - waiting for feedback 06:53:12 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21798 06:53:19 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17750 06:53:24 ... feedback is coming in on mailing list 06:53:26 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21869 06:53:29 tinkster has joined #html-wg 06:53:32 I left a comment for 21869 -- you should be able to close it I think 06:53:39 ddorwin: 18515 - think this would be good for the broader group 06:53:41 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18515 06:53:48 I had not read the latest section 8.2 06:53:56 TOPIC: Bug 18515 - Provide more details on behavior of the media element when 06:53:56 the key for an encrypted block is not available 06:54:12 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18515 06:54:15 q+ 06:54:39 ddorwin: not clear what to do here, for example if you have the data from the network but are blocked for some reason 06:54:58 q- 06:55:13 ack adrianba 06:55:54 rrsagent, generate minutes 06:55:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc 06:57:08 AndroUser has joined #html-wg 06:57:23 saki has joined #html-wg 06:57:50 SteveF has joined #html-wg 06:58:01 adrianba: there is an action on jerry to make a proposal for this 06:58:05 ... we've been discussing at microsoft 06:58:16 ... [discussion of why we want to solve this problem] 06:58:31 ChristianFuhrhop2 has joined #html-wg 06:58:37 ... the beginning of the proposal might be to update the waiting event to include a reason for why the media element is waiting 06:58:41 +[IPcaller] 06:58:49 ... if it is something other than waiting for data from the network 06:59:04 dsinger has joined #html-wg 06:59:54 TOPIC: Bug 23619 - Drop or change MediaKeyError constant prefix 07:00:02 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23619 07:00:14 ddorwin: proposal to use strings instead of numeric constants 07:00:30 ... seen this for other places but not for error codes 07:00:43 ... if anyone has guidance on this it would be good to hear 07:00:52 AndroUser has joined #html-wg 07:00:52 zakim, who's making noise? 07:00:53 ... we haven't seen other APIs use enums for error codes 07:01:06 denis, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shenzhen (59%) 07:01:16 ddorwin: i could talk to Alex directly 07:01:22 paulc: nobody from the TAG is here 07:01:24 zakim, [IPcaller] is stevefaulkner 07:01:24 +stevefaulkner; got it 07:01:40 paulc: we discussed 7 comments in detail 07:01:46 ... 4 of them are going to be closed 07:01:55 ... there are a bunch still to be worked on 07:02:04 ... sounds like 10+ bugs still open after this 07:02:12 ... do we want to spend more time making progress here? 07:02:18 ... we have all tomorrow afternoon 07:02:51 did you see my comment about closing 21869? Or was there another reason to keep it open 07:03:26 dsinger_ has joined #html-wg 07:04:12 agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda#Agenda 07:05:14 I will not be available that late tomorrow -- are there any more issues you need my input on? 07:05:30 saki has joined #html-wg 07:05:34 Thanks joesteele_. I just mentioned it in the room. 07:05:44 paulc: we'll organise a session after lunch 07:06:51 saki has joined #html-wg 07:06:58 ScribeNick: edoyle 07:07:05 -joesteele_ 07:07:08 joesteele_, nothing stands out. Thanks for attending! 07:07:48 ok 07:07:51 r12a has joined #html-wg 07:08:00 Next topic: Status of CR bugs on HTML5 and Canvas2D 07:08:43 Bug 20987 - The main element could do with some more examples 07:08:45 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20987 07:08:59 TOPIC: Status of CR bugs on HTML5 and Canvas2D 07:09:34 This is editorial and should not be blocking anything (in my opinion) 07:09:53 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21579 07:11:18 SteveF: will review and resolve 21579 within the next week 07:11:36 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 07:11:47 its a matter of clarifying what's in the spec (nothing controversial) 07:12:03 SteveF to provide the text 07:12:15 Noriya_ has joined #HTML-WG 07:12:30 myakura has joined #html-wg 07:12:47 ACTION: stevefaulkner to resolve bug 21579 and will provide spec text 07:12:47 Error finding 'stevefaulkner'. You can review and register nicknames at . 07:13:03 nkic_ has joined #html-wg 07:13:07 my nick is SteveF 07:13:32 ACTION: stevef to resolve bug 21579 and will provide spec text https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21579 07:13:32 Error finding 'stevef'. You can review and register nicknames at . 07:14:05 apologies for not seeing the ping earlier...ddorwin how can I help? 07:14:17 ACTION: SteveF to resolve bug 21579 and will provide spec text https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21579 07:14:18 Error finding 'SteveF'. You can review and register nicknames at . 07:14:22 ACTION: Steve to resolve bug 21579 and will provide spec text https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21579 07:14:25 Created ACTION-234 - Resolve bug 21579 and will provide spec text https://www.w3.org/bugs/public/show_bug.cgi?id=21579 [on Steve Faulkner - due 2013-11-21]. 07:15:44 MarkS: those were the 2 assigned to SteveF, there are 3 remaining ones that janina will take care of 07:16:41 (going through this list by assignee: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=REOPENED&component=HTML5%20spec&keywords=CR) 07:17:01 -stevefaulkner 07:17:10 hober: 18728 is editorial, nothing to block CR 07:18:15 ACTION: hober to resolve 18728 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19728 07:18:15 Created ACTION-235 - Resolve 18728 https://www.w3.org/bugs/public/show_bug.cgi?id=19728 [on Edward O'Connor - due 2013-11-21]. 07:19:20 next is i18n issue: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16970 07:19:32 hober: requires testing to know what we should be specifying 07:20:35 ...probably the most useful thing to make progress on this bug is feedback from i18n 07:21:26 r12a: addison can help out here 07:22:27 paulc: so we need a test case demonstrating the problem and then interop report 07:22:36 r12a to ask for such a test 07:23:28 ...so we can know whether to change implementations or spec (or both) 07:24:40 ED: translate attribute. looks like we need a test. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23208 07:25:35 RI: I think we need more clarification in the spec. I think you agree that there would be named attributes that would not be translatable. That is what I am asking for here. 07:25:46 myakura has joined #html-wg 07:26:03 ...the following attributes are translatable attributes 07:26:06 hoyang has joined #html-wg 07:26:46 PC: what is missing is anything not on this list. is that what you would like to see? 07:28:12 RI: translate set to no: you don't translate the attribute value either. 07:28:41 PC: the following attributes are translatable when the parent has translate set to yes 07:28:53 ...make the corner cases explicit 07:29:35 RI: question about the translatable attributes contained in that list 07:29:44 PC: orthogonal question. would require a new bug 07:31:10 trackbot, reload 07:31:18 trackbot, status 07:31:21 pal has joined #html-wg 07:32:10 ACTION: erica to resolve bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23208 as discussed 07:32:10 Error finding 'erica'. You can review and register nicknames at . 07:32:36 ACTION: erika to resolve bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23208 as discussed 07:32:36 Created ACTION-236 - Resolve bug https://www.w3.org/bugs/public/show_bug.cgi?id=23208 as discussed [on Erika Doyle Navara - due 2013-11-21]. 07:33:19 ED: https://www.w3.org/bugs/public/show_bug.cgi?id=22326 bulk of conversation is happening on WHATWG 07:33:53 ...changing the default behavior of the dir attribute. isolation instead of embedding behavior. 07:33:58 mjs has joined #html-wg 07:34:35 ...seems like good evidence that making this change should be good and should not have any negative implications. 07:34:35 hello hober! 07:34:59 ...i made the change and put it to the public list for review on WHATWG 07:35:49 s/hello hober!// 07:35:57 RI: there was a request to tackle as well (isolation) which involves the same thing. do we need a separate bug for that? 07:36:02 stevefaulkner has joined #html-wg 07:36:43 RB: I think your comment in the bug is enough to add the bdo change. email public-html 07:37:33 Next are robin's 5 ruby-related bugs 07:37:55 acolwell has joined #html-wg 07:37:55 ...these will be addressed by the ruby extension spec. 07:38:47 bugs 19251 through 19255 07:39:14 these should all be fixed by end of yar 07:39:21 s/yar/year 07:39:59 robin to update these bugs with an indication that they are being addressed by ruby extension sepc 07:40:04 s/sepc/spec 07:40:25 Next are the bugs on travis 07:41:27 travis to check if these should be fixed in time for CR 07:42:48 travis to look into this. it may be a non-issue for CR due to a cascade of at-risk feature removal 07:45:04 (in reference to 16957, 16959, 16960) 07:50:48 kazho_ has joined #html-wg 08:00:56 -Shenzhen 08:02:51 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 08:04:36 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 08:04:42 nkic has joined #html-wg 08:06:00 tantek has joined #html-wg 08:06:03 stommepoes has joined #html-wg 08:06:21 nsakai has joined #html-wg 08:06:51 SteveF has joined #html-wg 08:07:32 kurosawa has joined #html-wg 08:08:11 hoyang has joined #html-wg 08:08:36 jcraig has joined #html-wg 08:09:03 Zakim, passcode? 08:09:03 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), jcraig 08:09:26 hoyang1 has joined #html-wg 08:09:35 +James_Craig 08:10:59 zcorpan_ has joined #html-wg 08:13:13 nicks has joined #html-wg 08:14:34 zakim, who's on the phone? 08:14:34 On the phone I see Wayne_Carr, James_Craig 08:14:40 zakim, call Shenzhen 08:14:40 ok, denis; the call is being made 08:14:41 +Shenzhen 08:14:58 darobis has joined #html-wg 08:15:00 Zakim, unmute sh 08:15:00 Shenzhen was not muted, jcraig 08:16:04 yuka_o has joined #html-wg 08:16:12 Noriya has joined #HTML-WG 08:17:04 igarashi has joined #html-wg 08:17:22 pal has joined #html-wg 08:17:47 igarashi2 has joined #html-wg 08:17:56 wonsuk has joined #html-wg 08:18:26 cyns has joined #html-wg 08:18:28 minami has joined #html-wg 08:18:46 paulc has joined #html-wg 08:18:46 MichaelC has joined #html-wg 08:18:55 zakim, who is on the phone? 08:18:55 On the phone I see Shenzhen, Wayne_Carr, James_Craig 08:18:58 shan has joined #html-wg 08:19:18 scribenick: glenn 08:19:21 olivier has left #html-wg 08:19:22 taocai has joined #html-wg 08:19:30 shepazu has joined #html-wg 08:19:57 intros of guests from WAI 08:20:10 scribenick: glenn__ 08:20:10 s/WAI/WAI and pF/ 08:20:57 paulc: thanks to janina for participating today 08:21:04 ... made a list of possible discussion items 08:21:25 ... (1) 3 A10Y CR bugs 08:21:53 s/A10y/A11y/ 08:21:59 jcraig: tnx 08:22:20 paulc: relationship between DOM3 and DOM4 08:22:28 ... believes this answered off list 08:22:58 paulc: (4) status of canvas CR spec 08:23:12 ... draw custom focus ring 08:23:19 ... one request to extend 08:23:27 ... will discuss tomorrow morning 08:23:41 ... probably best handled in canvas session 08:24:06 janina: would like more time probably for coming to conclusion, at least no earlier than next THU 08:24:09 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 08:24:13 paulc: no problem with that 08:24:28 could someone clarify scribe comment "relationship between DOM3 and DOM4" 08:24:40 jcraig: no 08:24:41 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574 08:25:23 paulc: 18574 08:25:30 hober: 19277 08:25:32 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277 08:25:48 hober: summarize bug... 08:25:56 kurosawa_ has joined #html-wg 08:25:57 ... hidden attribute 08:26:09 ... rendering sections defines as sugar on top of display: none 08:26:17 ... several interrelated problems 08:26:29 ... in common style sheets ... div.foo 08:26:48 ... might style .foo as display: flex, but if hidden present, wouldn't hide 08:27:08 ... change default for hidden to display: none !important 08:27:16 ... but other problems with this 08:27:31 ... thinking of resolving according to Boris' comment 5 08:27:33 Zac has joined #html-wg 08:27:34 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277#c16 08:27:44 ... should be able to describe in terms of existing features 08:28:08 ... also use cases where authors should be able to use visibility: hidden 08:28:20 ... inclined to resolve as Boris suggests 08:28:29 ... i.e., as display: none 08:28:41 ... thinks it will resolve both of these bugs (18574 and 19277) 08:28:46 hoyang1 has left #html-wg 08:28:58 +1 to Boris comment #16 item 2, "No CSS box (e.g. display:none) means no accessible object." 08:29:14 so this is somewhat of a non-issue in most user agents 08:29:17 paulc: janina? 08:29:23 (for accessibility) 08:29:49 janina: appears this was conflated with discussion "issue 204" 08:30:00 ... maybe related (or not)... needs clarity 08:30:06 however, I agree that the mapping in HTML should be move from "strong" semantics table to the "weak" semantics table. b/c 08:30:13 shepazu has left #html-wg 08:30:30 ... is there a relation between this solution and where "issue 204" ended up? 08:30:40 ... wants to check with ARIA subteam in PF 08:30:59 currently WebKit is the only UA that correctly implements: 08:31:02 ... need to be careful 08:31:07 hober: yes, related to 204 08:31:28 ... need to make sure that this resolution doesn't affect 204 resolution 08:31:35 q+ to have someone read my comments started with the +1 to boris 08:32:02 janina: probably could take up on ARIA call this coming week 08:32:20 paulc: sounds like reasonable plan 08:32:40 ... reference to comment #15, janina takes away, discuss, etc, inform hober 08:32:49 janina: sounds ok 08:33:19 ack jc 08:33:19 jcraig, you wanted to have someone read my comments started with the +1 to boris 08:33:47 currently WebKit is the only UA that correctly implements: 08:33:55 jcraig: comment about move from "strong" to "weak" semantics table 08:34:23 ... do agree it can be resolved 08:34:52 hober: describing 18574 08:35:28 and boris is absolutely right that "No CSS box (e.g. display:none) means no accessible object." (unless overriden with aria-hidden="false") 08:35:59 tinkster has joined #html-wg 08:36:08 cynthia: can we do in TF on THU? 08:36:10 janina: yes 08:37:05 kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 08:37:15 paulc: 19277 and 18574... plan to discuss on ARIA call, also agenda item for THU TF call 08:37:32 ... attempt to get consensus on Boris' comment 08:38:06 paulc: third item 23380 08:38:35 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23380 08:38:43 janina: recent bug 08:38:49 ... due diligence matter 08:39:21 ... get right people to handle soon... 08:39:25 paulc: ARIA related 08:39:32 ... assigned to SteveF 08:39:47 paulc: janina to confer with SteveF 08:40:06 ... wants deterministic status 08:40:52 paulc: final item - image description 08:41:00 ... when HTML5 came out of LC to CR 08:41:08 ... a few contentious issues kept in WG 08:41:15 ... one was definition of longdesc 08:41:28 ... chairs proposed something called plan 2014 08:41:33 q? 08:41:34 ... delegated to A11Y TF 08:41:45 ... the dev of an extension spec 08:41:50 ... a significant success 08:42:05 ... what are plans going foward 08:42:20 janina: have gone through LC on spec published early 2013 08:42:33 ... continuing to work on comments 08:42:38 ... finalizing responses to comments 08:42:45 ... mostly editoria. 08:42:52 s/editoria/editorial/ 08:42:57 rniwa has joined #html-wg 08:43:05 ... but probably won't come to unanimity 08:43:19 ... due to polarization in a minority community 08:43:33 ... some have asked to be more prescriptive 08:43:41 nicks_ has joined #html-wg 08:43:42 ... e.g. how longdesc is discoverable 08:43:47 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:43:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc 08:43:56 ... don't want to be overly prescriptive on this now 08:44:10 ... left a lot up to UA 08:44:25 ... how UA exposes is UA dependent 08:44:25 sunyang has joined #html-wg 08:44:53 ... have serious of tests and results 08:45:04 s/serious/series/ 08:45:06 dsinger has joined #html-wg 08:45:27 ... on way to CR, not sure on CR duration or post-CR, e.g., whether to maintain as standalone spec 08:45:40 MichaelC has joined #html-wg 08:45:43 Jirka has joined #html-wg 08:45:47 ... or whether to ask to fold back into HTML5 08:45:50 -> https://rawgithub.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/master/html-longdesc/test-results.html Test results 08:46:00 ... perhaps ask WG to resolve 08:46:24 marks: good summary 08:46:48 ... getting consensus from TF about final responses 08:47:00 ... a few outstanding Qs but mostly straightforward 08:47:03 ... 22 tets 08:47:04 AndroUser2 has joined #html-wg 08:47:08 s/tets/tests/ 08:47:29 ... HTML testing TF invited to submit to github platform repo 08:47:56 paulc: plan 2014 shows paragraph about folding back in 08:48:07 ... to identify date 3 months before completion of CR 08:48:26 -James_Craig 08:48:27 ... for which can identification extension specs to fold back into HTML5 spec 08:48:50 igarashi has joined #html-wg 08:48:56 ... A11Y TF took care of longdesc work with option to fold back into HTML5 spec 08:49:11 ... would require decision by WG, but process has worked well 08:49:29 ... could also take directly to REC, but chairs haven't looked at this yet 08:49:57 ... community has been waiting some time, so really looking to A11Y TF for guidance/recommendation 08:50:23 ... good example of using modularity/extensions to empower people to progress more rapidly than larger group 08:50:37 paulc: look forward to complation of AIs (janina) 08:50:52 ... taking breaks (sam also) until early Dec 08:51:40 paulc: only outstanding A11Y item is canvas, to deal with focus ring issues 08:51:45 ... to discuss tomorrow AM 08:52:16 ... next segment is HTML5 testing 08:52:21 take 5mins break 08:52:52 RRSAgent, make minutes 08:52:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html shan 08:53:07 scribe: MarkS 08:54:01 saki has joined #html-wg 08:57:31 MichaelC has joined #html-wg 09:03:23 AndroUser2 has joined #html-wg 09:03:30 AndroUser2 has joined #html-wg 09:06:41 darobis has joined #html-wg 09:06:58 yosuke has joined #html-wg 09:07:26 kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 09:07:32 Topic: Testing and HTML5 Exit Criteria 09:07:35 saki has joined #html-wg 09:08:14 Noriya has joined #HTML-WG 09:08:41 http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/public-permissive-exit-criteria.html 09:08:43 a12u has joined #html-wg 09:08:46 minami has joined #html-wg 09:09:35 PC: Model CR Exit criteria. Rules for exiting CR stage. Looking for independent, interoperable implementations. Features that are well known, deployed and match the spec, we will assume good to go. 09:10:09 giuseppep has joined #html-wg 09:10:11 ...went through HTML5 and Canvas spec at last F2F to identify sections we *thought* were interoperable. 09:10:37 ...Overview of testing in view of CR document. 09:11:23 ...either considerd interoperable, requires testing, at risk has tests, has implementations and has implementations and tests. 09:11:59 Lachy has joined #html-wg 09:12:00 RB: this key made sense at the time, looking back on it, we now know it probably does.'t 09:12:12 maltman_ has joined #html-wg 09:12:26 ...it is a bit confusing. 09:12:41 MichaelC has left #html-wg 09:12:42 ...anything blue or yellow bar needs testing. 09:12:57 kennyluck has joined #html-wg 09:13:11 ...if its not green it is not widely considered interop 09:13:41 ...there should probably be requires testing and does not have tests and req testing and does have tests. 09:13:50 ...i will most likely go through and update this document. 09:14:16 PC: eventually, the purple items will require tests and we will report on them to the director 09:14:31 ...the chairs have not produced a WG Decision on the original CfC 09:14:58 ...in september we received feedback on 3 points. first was a bug report, chairs would like to see a decision on that bug 09:15:20 ...bug 18490 09:15:25 r12a has joined #html-wg 09:16:44 ED: this bug we asked i18n if we could remove CR keyword, but the referencing bug is the one we talked about today. 09:16:47 dsinger has joined #html-wg 09:16:48 igarashi has joined #html-wg 09:17:03 ...we are ready to go forward on this. 09:17:34 PC: is 22326 directly related to his issue? 09:17:37 a1zu has joined #html-wg 09:17:44 ED: don't know at this time. 09:18:02 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18490#c14 09:18:10 Comment 14 indicates this bug is no longer blocking the CfC 09:18:33 PC: look at more recent research that have gone into testing this condition 09:19:22 ...earlier this week, I asked erika, denis and robin to go through HTML5 test suite and look through TOC to identify places where we didn't have tests 09:19:26 Jirka has joined #html-wg 09:19:31 maltman has joined #html-wg 09:19:34 ...produced this list 09:19:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Nov/0025.html 09:20:14 ED: went through the suite and identified sections that had NO tests. cross referenced with robin's chart 09:20:24 PC: this should help robin update his doc 09:20:55 ...this research doesn't included un-reviewed tests 09:21:30 JG: their are thousands of un-reviewed tests 09:21:33 sunyang has joined #html-wg 09:21:46 RG: reviewing is a fair bit of work, sometimes more than writing the tests. 09:22:02 ...denis is working on reviewing tests 09:22:45 ...anyone who is considering writing tests should look for existing tests, then in non-reviewed tests to see if tests have already been written 09:22:54 ...lots of improvement on testing documentation. 09:23:36 ...canvas test suite is working again. improved test writing documentation 09:23:48 adrianba has joined #html-wg 09:23:49 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 09:24:00 JG: this came up in web apps as well, a tool for seeing which tests touch which specs (and where) 09:25:06 PC: robin, your recommendation on this? if that one bug was resolved, can chairs close this and issue a resolution? 09:25:26 ...can you take an action item to update this by dec? 09:26:21 revision of http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit.html 09:26:25 ACTION: robin to give us a revised overview of testing document - in 4 weeks 09:26:25 Created ACTION-237 - Give us a revised overview of testing document - in 4 weeks [on Robin Berjon - due 2013-11-21]. 09:26:55 ACTION-237 due 2013-12-4 09:26:55 Set ACTION-237 Give us a revised overview of testing document - in 4 weeks due date to 2013-12-04. 09:27:41 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 09:27:44 PC: in the previous sessions, we now have a clear picture of CR bugs. it was 480 when robin came on board. with new editors, we've reduced that number to 20 or less. 09:27:59 masatakayakura has joined #html-wg 09:28:24 ...to get out of CR we need 3 things: no bugs, tests, and implementations for those places were we don't have tests that aren't satisfied by the exit criteria. No tests, we don't get out of CR. 09:28:33 tobie has joined #html-wg 09:29:12 myakura_ has joined #html-wg 09:29:19 ...wanted to come out of this F2F with a better understanding of at least 2 of those. 09:29:19 ...implementation timing is harder to nail down. 09:29:26 ...no implementations, they will most likely get cut from 5.0 (stay in 5.1) 09:29:53 ...thanks to tobie, erika, denis etc for all this work. 09:30:16 ...need tests in order to prove implementations. 09:30:59 ...if we have a Spring meeting, major topic will be testing. may be the only reason. Web apps may do the same. Need to get the right people in the room to achieve this. 09:31:35 RI: i look at the overview document and see areas where I have submitted tests that indicate no tests. Are we going to update it... 09:31:43 RB: yes, we have a clear plan to do that. 09:31:59 PC: will have a discussion about canvas tomorrow. 09:32:18 M5: i will be able to show some canvas test results. 09:33:48 TL: w3c testing fellowship from Facebook. Looking for testing coverage from members to extend my fellowship. If this is of interest to you or your company, please talk to me or Phillippe 09:34:09 ChristianFuhrhop2 has left #html-wg 09:34:15 -Wayne_Carr 09:34:25 PC: motion to adjourn and reconvene tomorrow morning. We will start with Canvas, features at risk, Accessibility features.... 09:34:42 http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda 09:35:24 expect to adjourn no later than 3PM tomorrow 09:35:57 rrsagent, make minutes 09:35:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html MarkS 09:36:06 zakim, who's on the phone? 09:36:06 On the phone I see Shenzhen 09:36:08 -Shenzhen 09:36:09 HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended 09:36:09 Attendees were Shenzhen, +1.503.264.aaaa, joesteele_, Shenzhen.a, stevefaulkner, James_Craig 09:36:20 rrsagent, make minutes 09:36:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html MarkS 09:36:32 darobin: groundhog day 'Editor's Draft 7 November 2013' less 青啤 more HTML编码 ;-) 09:36:45 mark_vickers has left #html-wg 09:36:47 glenn has joined #html-wg 09:36:54 ZacT has joined #html-wg 09:41:10 Jirka has left #html-wg 09:45:43 saki has joined #html-wg 09:48:05 dsinger has joined #html-wg 09:50:21 denis has joined #html-wg 09:52:24 gitbot has joined #html-wg 09:52:24 01[13html01] 15stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/450185e45fde0f23d00b5d97ad500d5fdc50b76b 09:52:24 13html/06master 14450185e 15steve faulkner: fix hidden/aria-hidden... 09:52:24 gitbot has left #html-wg 09:52:53 igarashi has joined #html-wg 09:54:30 SteveF: :-) 09:54:41 silvia has joined #html-wg 09:58:02 hober: i took https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574 as I have made a change to spec to hopefully resolve, if you want to keep change back :-) 10:01:48 MikeSmith: working every angle to get robins arse into gear :-) 10:07:00 r12a-limechat has joined #html-wg 10:07:04 pal has joined #html-wg 10:15:35 gitbot has joined #html-wg 10:15:35 01[13html01] 15stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/985415ccc0d5ae13c0acc61d0dcbf3e50112c01e 10:15:35 13html/06master 14985415c 15steve faulkner: fix link to required in aria section... 10:15:35 gitbot has left #html-wg 10:17:08 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 10:17:20 myakura has joined #html-wg 10:17:37 darobin: the audio is for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tER_2xmVlU 10:28:58 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 10:30:11 saki has joined #html-wg 10:31:58 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 10:32:19 ddorwin1 has joined #html-wg 10:37:49 ddorwin2 has joined #html-wg 10:39:47 lgombos__ has joined #html-wg 11:02:46 lgombos__ has joined #html-wg 11:44:06 sgalineau has joined #html-wg 12:02:52 Zakim has left #html-wg 12:04:58 SteveF 青啤, trying to make us thirsty 12:05:37 stommepoes: always thirsty 12:06:09 You *do* keep talking about this... false dichotomy of "drinking" and "coding"... haven't you heard of the Ballmer Peak? 12:07:27 stevefaulkner has joined #html-wg 12:08:10 see, now I'm seeing double stevefaulkner s 12:13:53 myakura has joined #html-wg 12:29:43 tinkster1 has joined #html-wg 12:38:22 edoyle has joined #html-wg 12:55:27 stommepoes has joined #html-wg 13:08:54 mkelly has joined #html-wg 13:12:55 nsakai has joined #html-wg 13:15:45 nsakai_ has joined #html-wg 13:30:44 saki has joined #html-wg 13:41:33 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 13:46:29 glenn has joined #html-wg 13:54:15 rniwa has joined #html-wg 13:54:33 saki_ has joined #html-wg 13:59:54 Tomoyuki has joined #html-wg 14:01:21 silvia has joined #html-wg 14:02:13 karl has joined #html-wg 14:17:16 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 14:36:57 dsinger has joined #html-wg 14:37:36 lgombos has joined #html-wg 14:46:18 davidb has joined #html-wg 14:49:25 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 14:51:14 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 14:57:33 kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 15:05:53 lgombos has joined #html-wg 15:16:20 tantek has joined #html-wg 15:21:52 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 15:30:44 pal has joined #html-wg 15:34:55 tantek has joined #html-wg 15:54:52 stommepoes has left #html-wg 16:00:57 denis has joined #html-wg 16:01:35 denis has left #html-wg 16:07:03 tinkster has joined #html-wg 16:19:52 tantek_ has joined #html-wg 16:37:08 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 17:27:50 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 17:28:07 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 17:58:53 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 18:01:42 danny_ has joined #html-wg 18:09:13 stevefaulkner has joined #html-wg 18:12:04 tinkster has joined #html-wg 18:12:29 chaals has joined #html-wg 18:15:21 myakura has joined #html-wg 18:26:14 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 18:27:57 chaals has joined #html-wg 18:37:38 tobie has joined #html-wg 18:47:41 stevefaulkner has joined #html-wg 18:50:57 jcraig has joined #html-wg 18:55:38 Lachy has joined #html-wg 19:04:21 jcraig has left #html-wg 19:07:23 jernoble_ has joined #html-wg 19:19:59 myakura has joined #html-wg 20:10:54 glenn has joined #html-wg 20:20:24 myakura has joined #html-wg 20:27:43 jernoble_ has joined #html-wg 20:55:33 davidb has joined #html-wg 21:00:40 chaals has joined #html-wg 21:01:50 danny_ has joined #html-wg 21:09:09 lgombos_ has joined #html-wg 21:10:26 lgombos__ has joined #html-wg 21:14:33 lgombos_ has joined #html-wg 21:14:49 lgombos has joined #html-wg 21:19:23 stevefaulkner has joined #html-wg 21:20:49 myakura has joined #html-wg 21:30:10 tantek has joined #html-wg 21:31:56 myakura has joined #html-wg 21:53:00 jernoble_ has joined #html-wg 22:03:07 stevefaulkner has joined #html-wg 22:06:08 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 22:31:19 tinkster has joined #html-wg 22:42:13 gitbot has joined #html-wg 22:42:13 01[13html01] 15darobin pushed 1 new commit to 06feature/whatwg: 02https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/a43f5fb21c05c159be980c9567bcaa59a49308f1 22:42:13 13html/06feature/whatwg 14a43f5fb 15ianh: [cgiow] (3) Change how dir='' works, from being an embedding to being an override, for better results on mixed-directionality sites. THIS IS A HIGH RISK CHANGE, EXPECT BREAKAGE. Please report breakage on the bug if it's higher than acceptable, so we can revert the change if necessary.... 22:42:13 gitbot has left #html-wg 23:10:05 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 23:49:55 silvia has joined #html-wg 23:51:49 jernoble_ has joined #html-wg 23:57:25 lgombos has joined #html-wg 00:04:38 nkic has joined #html-wg 00:05:22 glenn has joined #html-wg 00:09:12 tantek has joined #html-wg 00:17:43 tantek_ has joined #html-wg 00:22:58 glenn has joined #html-wg 00:23:48 glenn has joined #html-wg 00:27:39 lgombos has joined #html-wg 00:30:03 Tomoyuki has joined #html-wg 00:33:10 kurosawa_ has joined #html-wg 00:34:02 glenn_ has joined #html-wg 00:37:38 Tomoyuki has joined #html-wg 00:43:03 sunyang has joined #html-wg 00:45:47 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 00:46:37 chaals has joined #html-wg 00:48:37 adrianba has joined #html-wg 00:52:17 silvia has joined #html-wg 00:52:40 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 00:55:23 silvia1 has joined #html-wg 00:57:18 yosuke has joined #html-wg 00:59:06 darobin has joined #html-wg 00:59:25 dsinger has joined #html-wg 01:01:06 paulc has joined #html-wg 01:01:13 darobin has joined #html-wg 01:01:15 trackbot, start meeting 01:01:17 RRSAgent, make logs public 01:01:17 Zakim has joined #html-wg 01:01:19 Zakim, this will be html_wg 01:01:19 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()8:00PM scheduled to start now 01:01:20 Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference 01:01:20 Date: 15 November 2013 01:01:29 rrsagent, make minutes 01:01:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc 01:02:10 zakim, what is the code? 01:02:10 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc 01:02:14 Yougnsun_Ryu has joined #html-wg 01:02:15 HTML_WG()8:00PM has now started 01:02:20 zakim, phone shenzen 01:02:20 I am sorry, paulc; I do not know a number for shenzen 01:02:22 + +1.971.998.aaaa 01:03:21 zakim, call Shenzhen 01:03:21 ok, paulc; the call is being made 01:03:23 +Shenzhen 01:03:52 Is there anyone else that is going to join the teleconfernce? 01:05:15 kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 01:06:30 darobis has joined #html-wg 01:07:03 jjj has joined #HTML-wg 01:07:10 silvia has joined #html-wg 01:08:51 Zac has joined #html-wg 01:09:37 hoyang has joined #html-wg 01:09:42 hoyang has left #html-wg 01:09:48 Travis has joined #html-wg 01:09:55 shan has joined #html-wg 01:10:20 Zakim, this meeting spans midnight 01:10:20 I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight', darobin 01:10:23 mz-modeltaxi has joined #html-wg 01:10:25 - +1.971.998.aaaa 01:10:29 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 01:12:51 + +1.971.998.aabb 01:12:55 Tomoyuki has joined #html-wg 01:14:56 ddavis has joined #html-wg 01:16:49 gwm_ has joined #html-wg 01:18:02 edoyle has joined #html-wg 01:18:34 igarashi has joined #html-wg 01:19:05 shan has joined #html-wg 01:21:41 dsinger has joined #html-wg 01:24:16 taocai has joined #html-wg 01:25:59 Eliot has joined #html-wg 01:26:28 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 01:26:33 plh has joined #html-wg 01:27:27 aboyet has joined #html-wg 01:27:30 scribe: travis 01:27:35 scribeNick: Travis 01:27:45 Status of CfC on Canvas: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Oct/0009.html 01:27:46 minami has joined #html-wg 01:27:53 kawabata has joined #html-wg 01:27:57 Lisa has joined #html-wg 01:28:19 Takahiro has joined #html-wg 01:28:23 Canvas CR features at risk: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-2dcontext-20121217/ 01:28:32 koji has joined #html-wg 01:28:37 paulc: Now looking at at-risk features in original canvas CR 01:29:03 ... some folks mistook an at-risk wiki as normative 01:29:15 rniwa has joined #html-wg 01:29:36 Editors draft with different features at risk: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/2dcontext/html5_canvas_CR/ 01:29:38 ... showing current editor's draft of canvas 2d w/ at-risk features 01:29:54 ... path objects + hit regions (in the original) 01:30:03 ... now a revised set of at-risk features in editor's draft 01:30:10 ... added more stuff from path objects 01:30:14 ... hit regions still there 01:30:25 ... all attributes of text-metrics (except width) 01:30:38 ... ellipse is going out due to lack of implementations.. 01:30:42 ... focus ring stuff 01:30:57 Ruinan_ has joined #html-wg 01:30:59 ... So we didn't have the right at-risk feature list originally. 01:31:01 myakura has joined #html-wg 01:31:02 ... how to move forward? 01:31:16 ... we could 1) publish revised version of canvas w/revised at-risk features. 01:31:23 ... but we'd have to go back to LC. 01:31:30 ... per the process 01:31:43 ... or 2) we could remove all the items from the spec 01:32:00 ... go back to LC then directly to PR. 01:32:16 ... there's also some variations possible 01:32:30 ... a11y TF is also considering removal of all but focus-ring items 01:32:42 ... go to LC then back to CR 01:32:55 A11Y TF CfC on Canvas features at risk: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0006.html 01:33:19 ... quotes the mail 01:33:47 ... in long term, some features may transition to canvas L2 01:34:03 ... a11y looking for CfC on this. Should close on Wednesday 01:34:17 ... wanted to ask folks in room what they think of this plan. 01:34:27 ... and whether we should keep the focus-ring stuff in the spec. 01:34:50 ... ack. that we're missing Rich (IBM)'s opinion 01:35:02 ... there's a proposal to keep the a11y TF open. 01:35:18 MarkS: No sure--don't have consensus 01:35:23 -> http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/ Canvas2D test results 01:35:28 paulc: Mike can you update on canvas testing? 01:35:52 igarashi has joined #html-wg 01:36:13 -> http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/failures.html Canvas2D test (non)failures 01:36:13 Jirka has joined #html-wg 01:36:29 adrianba_ has joined #html-wg 01:36:33 MikeSmith: now looking at Canvas 2d test results 01:36:42 xiaoqian has joined #html-wg 01:36:45 ... should have safari there eventually 01:36:51 ... purpose was to see the failures. 01:37:07 ... we have Fx26, Cr 31, IE10 01:37:33 ... results generated from test framework authored by ms2ger 01:37:39 ... green = good 01:37:44 ... other colors = bad 01:38:23 ... some tests failed because test case harness issues (generator failures--those in yellow) 01:38:55 ... reds are failing, we know why most of them are, but not all. 01:39:27 paulc: need to understand why some tests are failing. 01:39:35 q+ MarkS to ask how complete the test coverage is 01:39:36 dezell has joined #html-wg 01:39:51 MikeSmith: one more class (blue?) are manual tests 01:40:00 ... I haven't run those. 01:40:21 paulc: CR exit criteria is 2 interop impls. 01:40:24 WayneCarr has joined #html-wg 01:40:39 ... the implementation has to be "public" could be a beta release. 01:40:43 - +1.971.998.aabb 01:40:51 tantek has joined #html-wg 01:40:51 ... are there other options other than the implementations we've looked at? 01:41:12 MikeSmith: blink/webkit are not far enough apart in the failure details. 01:41:29 ... for me, it looks like we're ready to go into the CR transition given the test results. 01:41:40 ... note: test suite doesn't include at-risk features. 01:41:47 ... otherwise, we're ready to go. 01:41:50 paulc: summary: 01:42:03 ... if we remove at-risk features, we can go back to short last call. 01:42:06 giuseppep has joined #html-wg 01:42:14 ... and declare that we'll go (next) to PR. 01:42:16 q- 01:42:27 ... perhaps we could have a canvas REC early in 2014. 01:42:47 ... looks like a11y TF wanted to get consensus to leave focus-ring in, and extend the CR 01:42:52 ... I want to chat about that. 01:43:00 ... (hear from the group) 01:43:07 ... we won't make decisions here today 01:43:15 junil has joined #html-wg 01:43:23 ... but want to know what a CfC result might be. 01:43:36 ... looking for input on at-risk features in editor's draft 01:43:39 q? 01:43:43 a12u has joined #html-wg 01:43:52 q+ jmann 01:43:55 Q+ 01:44:30 tantek has joined #html-wg 01:44:47 cynthia: any chance that canvas l1 rec earlier would speed up v2? 01:44:51 paulc: yes. 01:44:59 q+ to express support to the chairs and group from the team side for readiness of transition out of CR for features that are in the test suite 01:45:14 jmann: hi folks 01:45:20 ... worked on implementing canvas 01:45:22 ack jmann 01:45:30 ... we've been looking at draw focus ring 01:45:36 denis has joined #html-wg 01:45:40 ... seems like draw focus ring stuff needs work 01:45:47 +[IPcaller] 01:45:48 ... ric and I have some feedback 01:46:07 ... draw focus ring seems to be trumping user's settings 01:46:14 ... some of the methods may need more thinking 01:46:25 ... focus rings and hit regions may have some overlap 01:46:33 ... also API name may be a bit confusing 01:46:46 ... the draw command doesn't actually draw anything 01:46:51 ... and it's not a ring 01:47:03 ... we have 2 early implementations 01:47:08 cyns has joined #html-wg 01:47:17 ... cabanier also has some spec questions 01:47:27 q+ 01:47:28 q? 01:47:31 ... I propose we move these to v2 for clarifying 01:47:38 ack lisa 01:47:56 Lisa: I wasn't following this issue 01:47:58 ... bear with me 01:48:31 ... legislation around the world fines folks for not producing a11y content 01:48:39 zakim, who is on the phone? 01:48:39 On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), [IPcaller] (muted) 01:48:48 ... folks will produce quick fixes just to ship 01:49:00 ... people need to make a11y content 01:49:15 q+ 01:49:18 ... please don't release canvas until you have a solution that works for a11y 01:49:20 q+ jmann 01:49:28 paulc: canvas is in CR. 01:49:38 I agree with Jatinder's assessment about DrawCustomFocusRing and further would state it as, we don't have consensus on DrawCustomFocusRing and in particular we don't have implementor agreement on DrawCustomFocusRing (and I say that having followed all the public discussions on blink-dev (chromium-dev?) and webkit-dev and mozilla bug and now the comments from Jatinder here) 01:49:54 ack mike 01:49:54 MikeSmith, you wanted to express support to the chairs and group from the team side for readiness of transition out of CR for features that are in the test suite 01:49:59 ack mikesmith 01:50:00 ... today, if someone builds a site with canvas, can they still get fined (canvas features from today's draft)? 01:50:02 Lisa: yes 01:50:20 shoko has joined #html-wg 01:50:33 MikeSmith: acks. lots of history around this 01:50:45 ... draw system focus ring is not as controversial 01:50:55 q+ 01:51:18 ... draw custom focus ring (with lots of discussion from implementors)... 01:51:41 ... from W3C team side, looking at results and making objective assessment 01:51:55 ... chairs and WG are in a good position to transition canvas spec with the given features 01:51:58 ack hober 01:52:16 hober: thanks jmann, good summary 01:52:22 q+ 01:52:25 koji_ has joined #html-wg 01:52:34 ... it's important that we get this right and have accessible canvas. 01:52:49 ... what's current speced in draw ** focus ring doesn't meet high quality bar 01:52:55 ... for getting the feature right 01:53:00 ... in response to lisa: 01:53:07 ... browsers have shipped this for years 01:53:13 ... we need to get the spec done 01:53:16 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 01:53:17 q+ 01:53:18 ... we need to get a11y right 01:53:35 ... we probably can't get these out simultaneously 01:53:40 ack me 01:53:46 ... a11y seems to be taking longer, but we need to do the right thing 01:54:09 r12a has joined #html-wg 01:54:11 cynthia: if we ship what we have, we can focus on a11y, and shift our attention to it. 01:54:12 ack jmann 01:54:15 ack jmann 01:54:17 Daniel_Austin has joined #html-wg 01:54:40 jmann: for lisa: canvas ships with one accessibility feature (shadow dom -- meaning content tree under canvas) 01:54:48 ... does work for some scenarios, not all (game) 01:54:51 ack mark 01:54:52 ack marks 01:54:59 MarkS: lisa is right. 01:55:02 zakim, who is on the phone? 01:55:02 On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), [IPcaller] (muted) 01:55:10 q+ 01:55:16 wonsuk has joined #html-wg 01:55:19 ... we hear from epub (e.g.) that focus stuff is important 01:55:27 ... we should set a high a11y bar 01:55:40 ... yes jmann, we do have shadow dom, but... 01:55:44 zakim, please unmute Shenzhen 01:55:44 Shenzhen should no longer be muted 01:55:59 ... seems like we're getting close and can meet a minimum bar 01:56:17 ... is there a possibility for the big three browsers to get these all working minimally 01:56:27 -[IPcaller] 01:56:32 ... we are sending a message that there will be a rec without this a11y support. 01:56:51 ... devs will say, my app needs only canvas v1, w/out a11y features. 01:56:55 q+ 01:57:00 ack cab 01:57:01 ... we should be cautious 01:57:20 cabanier: jmann said you can use shadow dom--it's pretty powerful and accessible 01:57:41 jungkees has joined #html-wg 01:57:45 ... the implementations in Fx and Cr are differnet, spec needs to be clarified 01:57:47 AutomatedTester has joined #html-wg 01:57:53 + +1.503.264.aacc - is perhaps Wayne_Carr 01:57:56 ... I don't think it helps to ship something today 01:58:05 ... no reason to not have a short level 2 01:58:12 hober: a 1.1? 01:58:21 paulc: here's another alternative 01:58:29 silvia1 has joined #html-wg 01:58:30 ... no reason not to move these to an extension spec 01:58:44 q+ 01:58:47 ... do these a11y features on top of canvas as an extension spec 01:58:50 q+ 01:58:55 ... and not tie these new features to a v2 at all. 01:59:07 ... what do folks think? It's another possibility. 01:59:21 ... moving these out of band may be helpful 01:59:37 ack paulc 01:59:48 hober: clarify that we have a process for extension specs 01:59:55 ... modularity is good 02:00:06 ... there's a concern that extensions specs are less real 02:00:07 -Wayne_Carr 02:00:08 to be clear, I don't think cabanier was saying the implementations of the content tree under canvas (what in the past has been called the "canvas shadow dom") are different; instead he was talking about the implementations of DrawCustomFocusRing (I think) 02:00:10 ... clearly not the case. 02:00:29 q? 02:00:39 paulc: empowering people to work on a separate spec, improves it's visibility 02:01:00 Noriya_ has joined #HTML-WG 02:01:05 ack cyns 02:01:08 cyns: to MarkS a bad API codified in browsers will live forever. 02:01:19 ... we don't want to end up there. 02:01:23 +[IPcaller] 02:01:27 ... sounds like all browsers are working on this. 02:01:45 who is rniwa? 02:01:47 ... moving to extension spec, v2, whatever may not be a concern 02:01:57 paulc: Ryosuke Niwa from Apple 02:01:58 zakim, IPcaller is WayneCarr 02:01:58 +WayneCarr; got it 02:02:00 ... does the idea of extension spec work for epub? 02:02:07 ... I think it could work. 02:02:20 ack rniwa 02:02:39 rniwa: google implemented in chrome. 02:02:53 ... then AT comes in and shows the focus ring 02:03:02 ... API is deceiving 02:03:14 Thank Ryosuke 02:03:22 ... may be worse having the bad feature name in the spec v1 02:03:23 s/shadow dom, but/sub dom, but drawFocusRing is an important component in making the sub dom accessible 02:03:40 ... browser will be able to implement new features soon 02:03:44 Daniel_Austin has joined #html-wg 02:03:44 about DrawCustomFocusRing and a11y, if people want a perspective from somebody who has particular insight all-around on this (including from having tried to implement it per spec), talk with Dominic Manzonni 02:03:49 ... we will see interop soon 02:04:11 ack ad 02:04:16 adrianba: will be brief, we all seem to be agreeing 02:04:23 ... so why move this spec forward? 02:04:34 ... some folks have said we need a rec, but why? 02:04:52 ... agree with engineering discussion that needs to fix the focus stuff. 02:04:55 igarashi has joined #html-wg 02:05:06 ... it won't stop; browsers keep working on it. 02:05:13 ... there are important IP considerations here. 02:05:20 ... don't want to revisist 02:05:32 ... there are some old discussions about canvas in HTML5 02:05:43 s/my app needs only canvas v1/my app meets canvas v1 and that is good enough for me 02:05:44 ... the royalty free committment in the rec is desired 02:06:02 ... there are important consequences to have a rec 02:06:10 ... we're happy to see lots of green in the test suite 02:06:28 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 02:06:37 cabanier: some red box are because the test are relying on some html5 features that aren't working quite as nice in implementatios 02:06:43 jernoble_ has joined #html-wg 02:06:44 ... if we move this to extension spec 02:06:46 big +1 to what adrianba said about importance of getting canvas to rec for IP/RF-agreement reasons 02:06:58 ... want feedback from a11y group on our open questions. 02:07:12 ... let's not let the discussion die. We need to make progress. 02:07:14 q? 02:07:18 ack cabanier 02:07:33 paulc: summarize the state of the world 02:07:48 ... we have CfC that I don't see consensus. 02:07:59 ... we also have offline discussion going on, but we need to make this more visible 02:08:09 ... especially yanina & charles. 02:08:22 ... we need to see answers on the list. 02:08:39 ... we need to see the discussion in either the TF or somewhere else. 02:08:43 s/yanina/janina 02:08:46 ... how to move forward. 02:09:12 ... I would get strong support for moving this forward, probably will get formal objections 02:09:20 ... love given those FO's to the director 02:09:41 ... please, cabanier, jmann, hober summarize your questions, take it to the list 02:09:49 ... start good "solid" thread 02:10:02 ... will make it easier for TF facilitators to identify next steps. 02:10:27 ... we've met my goal of having an open discussion, and we've seen the test results 02:10:39 ... show's we've got the right data to send to the director. 02:10:46 ... thanks all! 02:11:04 http://darobin.github.io/html-ruby/ 02:11:31 topic: ruby markup 02:11:42 darobin: we have minutes linked from somewhere. 02:11:48 paulc: prestart... 02:12:14 -WayneCarr 02:12:18 darobin: ruby has been a long-time problem in html 02:12:26 ... some work over the years, but it wasn't done. 02:12:39 ... last 2 years of use cases gathered by i18n 02:12:50 ... based on this, we started on improving ruby in html 02:13:01 ... we also coordinated with *those* css people 02:13:10 jernobl__ has joined #html-wg 02:13:12 ... because there's a complicated rendering that goes with it. 02:13:17 ... and I think we've got it! 02:13:23 tao has joined #html-WG 02:13:33 ... on plenary day, we had a breakout session about ruby 02:13:42 ... we agreed (non-binding) about 02:13:46 http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby-use-cases/ 02:13:58 ... taking the current ruby spec and integrate it into html 02:14:00 W3C HTML Ruby Markup Extensions: http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-html-ruby-extensions-20131022/ 02:14:07 ... would include some limited parser changesj 02:14:12 ... not huge changes 02:14:25 ... adding rb elements so they're not implicit 02:14:34 ... these are in content (real ruby content) 02:14:41 fantasai has joined #html-wg 02:14:51 ... also adding rtc elements 02:14:57 ... (ruby text container) 02:15:05 ... first step is do document this plan 02:15:12 ... then to integrate the changes 02:15:21 ... plan to do that in the next few weeks 02:15:25 Ruby HTML CR bugs: 19251-19255 in: 02:15:26 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=REOPENED&component=HTML5%20spec&keywords=CR&list_id=29878 02:15:26 ... then speak to implementors 02:15:43 ... I hope that with a few tests we'll show that ruby is interoperable 02:15:57 ... to show decent ruby support in html5.0 02:16:06 paulc: showing the bugs related to ruby 02:16:10 silvia has joined #html-wg 02:16:19 ... when we looked at HTML5.0 cr bugs, ~18 02:16:28 ... 5 of these are fixed by the ruby extension spec. 02:16:43 ... my question: after interop, and you attempt to fold in the new material. 02:16:48 kawabata_ has joined #html-wg 02:16:50 ... will the old info be corrected/replaced? 02:17:05 darobin: yes. I can close the bugs, the html spec will be fixed. 02:17:23 paulc: this will show interop in html. 02:17:27 kazutaka has joined #html-wg 02:17:31 ... timeframe? 02:17:38 darobin: starting now 02:18:17 paulc: I know epub really needs this. 02:18:21 darobin: ditto 02:19:00 paulc: I've talked with some folks in the hallway that don't understand the licensing experiment 02:19:13 ... using cc-by only applies to extension specs 02:19:32 ... when we fold ruby back in, it will then be covered by the doc license of the HTML spec 02:20:00 ... make sure that (for the community) we publish a heartbeat doc under cc-by that will be the exact same thing we fold in. 02:20:05 hayato has joined #html-wg 02:20:17 ... if we all die tomorrow, someone could pick it up and run with it. 02:20:35 saki has joined #html-wg 02:20:50 darobin: I can do that (publish the final ruby extension spec before folding it in) 02:20:52 paulc: questions? 02:21:13 paulc: last call? 02:21:24 ... we're on break! 02:21:42 koji has joined #html-wg 02:23:02 kotakagi has joined #html-wg 02:23:24 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:23:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html shan 02:27:08 Noriya_ has joined #HTML-WG 02:31:17 pi21 has joined #html-wg 02:31:45 kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 02:33:12 a1zu has joined #html-wg 02:37:41 Youngsun_Ryu has joined #html-wg 02:39:55 mp21 has joined #html-wg 02:40:31 mp21_ has joined #html-wg 02:43:41 -Shenzhen 02:43:42 HTML_WG()8:00PM has ended 02:43:42 Attendees were +1.971.998.aaaa, Shenzhen, +1.971.998.aabb, +1.503.264.aacc, WayneCarr 02:45:34 Daniel_Austin has joined #html-wg 02:53:37 taocai has joined #html-wg 02:55:00 dsinger has joined #html-wg 02:55:38 tantek has joined #html-wg 02:56:06 JatinderMann has joined #html-wg 02:57:19 shoko has joined #html-wg 02:57:44 Jirka has joined #html-wg 02:58:03 dsinger_ has joined #html-wg 02:58:15 dsinger_ has left #html-wg 02:59:32 Tomoyuki1 has joined #html-wg 03:00:25 Tomoyuki has joined #html-wg 03:03:08 plh3 has joined #html-wg 03:03:14 kurosawa has joined #html-wg 03:03:40 kawabata2 has joined #html-wg 03:04:54 koji has joined #html-wg 03:05:30 bin_lee has joined #html-wg 03:08:12 darobis has joined #html-wg 03:09:07 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML_Normative_References 03:09:19 scribenick: hober 03:09:26 topic: Normative References 03:09:56 jungkees has joined #html-wg 03:10:00 darobin: in order to ship, we need to ensure the references in our spec are to things that are stable 03:10:15 masinter has joined #html-wg 03:10:19 ... the documents they point at don't have to be entirely stable, but the features we rely on in them need to be 03:10:33 ddavis has joined #html-wg 03:10:36 ... i've been going through our existing references to fix 03:10:43 ... erring on the side of inclusion 03:10:55 ((can someone repost the URL of what is showing??)) 03:11:05 ... many references are safe 03:11:16 ... unused references have already been pruned from the spec 03:11:19 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML_Normative_References 03:11:35 ... there are a number of refs that can be made informative 03:11:48 nkic has joined #html-wg 03:11:57 JM has joined #html-wg 03:11:57 igarashi has joined #html-wg 03:12:07 ... e.g. the references to the whatwg wiki and becss can be made informative 03:12:25 ... there are a number of references to LC or CR documents 03:12:47 ... these are lower risk, overall they're fine 03:12:58 ... then there are the problematic references 03:13:07 ... many of them can be dealt with easily 03:13:20 ... e.g. xhr, but we only rely on progress events 03:13:45 nol has joined #html-wg 03:13:50 ... so we can reference the other progress events doc instead 03:14:07 gwm has joined #html-wg 03:14:17 paulc: are these changes editorial or are you filing bugs for them? 03:14:26 darobin: changes are largely editorial 03:14:42 paulc: should we have an uber bug covering all of these changes? 03:14:57 darobin: any change that involves a change in behavior will have bug filed 03:15:14 ... biggest issue are a chunk of references we can't possibly remove or make informative 03:15:30 ... e.g. dom4, which this wg has taken on and will advance 03:15:38 ... travis, where are you with dom parsing / innerHTML 03:15:50 Travis: I've made 3 years of progress in the past few nights 03:16:16 ... I thought DOM parsing and serialization would be one bug fix 03:16:34 ... i've ported bug fixes from the living standard 03:16:45 koji_ has joined #html-wg 03:16:46 ... hopefully start a last call next week 03:17:07 darobin: other problematic refs include encoding, url 03:17:16 ... talking with anne, i think we can handle this 03:17:18 tantek has joined #html-wg 03:17:26 ... nightmare reference is mime sniffing 03:17:39 ... no w3c spec, whatwg spec full of missing pieces and TODOs 03:17:41 Zac has joined #html-wg 03:17:48 AutomatedTester has joined #html-wg 03:17:52 ... we need this for image loading, etc. 03:18:09 q? 03:18:28 q+ 03:18:31 ... that document has some good parts, but we need a plan to get a doc we could rely on 03:18:46 masinter: this doc was in the ietf web security wg for a while 03:18:55 ... abarth was working on it but abandoned it 03:18:56 xiaoqian has joined #html-wg 03:19:14 darobin: went to ietf and got abandoned, went to whatwg next and has largely languished 03:19:29 [XHTMLMOD] should point here: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/ 03:19:34 paulc: why can't the html spec say this is up to the UAs? 03:19:44 Takahiro has joined #html-wg 03:19:44 sunyang has joined #html-wg 03:19:48 MikeSmith: we need interoperable behavior here 03:20:03 paulc: are the existing browsers sniffing in the same way? 03:20:09 darobin: they're not 03:20:15 annevk: they're pretty close though 03:20:32 adrianba: i agree with aspiration to have clear spec on this 03:20:33 kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 03:20:36 ... but we don't have one 03:20:36 to finish ALL of mime sniffing you have to specify file: and ftp: 03:20:50 ... it would be OK but not desirable to leave it undefined now and fix it later 03:20:59 paulc: these are all subjective 03:21:21 ... not many people in the wg realized robin was doing this work; i wanted people to be aware of it 03:21:26 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 03:21:29 ... some of these need bugs to be more visible in the wg 03:22:01 ... so interested parties can weigh in; people have different opinions 03:22:09 q+ to comment 03:22:16 ... would we hold up html5 until we can demonstrate interoperable sniffing? 03:22:50 masinter: to really spec sniffing, you need to spec it for http, ftp, files, etc 03:22:56 ... no one's been willing to do this 03:23:20 ... you could say there's some process to go from a url to data with a mime type, and leave it at that 03:23:39 MikeSmith: where we started was with this in the spec, then removed it 03:24:02 ... if something isn't working per spec, not correct to punt and say it's UA defined 03:24:11 ... [describes page loading as an example of this] 03:24:19 ... i don't think this is a prudent way to go about this 03:24:21 it would make more sense to merge it with "Fetch" and start a working group to finish fetch 03:24:43 q+ 03:24:46 ... the only reason sniffing is separate is because we moved it out; it's logically the same spec 03:24:54 annevk: sniffing is largely interoperable 03:24:59 i'm not in favor of saying "implementation dependent", but it is in the OS and not the browser in many cases 03:25:17 ... the work abarth did has led mozilla and chrome to have largely aligned behavior here 03:25:20 rniwa has joined #html-wg 03:25:36 ... most of the red boxes in the spec are related to work gordan has been actively working on 03:25:42 it is and absurdly http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ 03:26:00 s/it is and absurdly// 03:26:13 darobin: you mean the spec looks bad but isn't that bad 03:26:16 annevk: yes 03:26:30 ... the red boxes are around new stuff related to parsing and serializing mime types 03:26:42 ... octet stream v. code point stream, etc. 03:26:47 -> http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ MIME Sniffing spec 03:26:56 darobin: could we ship it in a year if someone worked on it 03:26:58 annevk: yes 03:27:11 we also need a test suite for MIME sniffing... 03:27:18 darobin: maybe we could do this as an extension spec 03:27:26 masinter: what about merging it with fetch? 03:27:39 annevk: i've been trying to think about the layering there 03:27:49 ... not quite sure what i would think of that right now 03:27:55 ... fetch is getting the bag of bits 03:28:03 ... sniffing is an api endpoint thing and not a network thing 03:28:21 ... fetch is about getting the bytes; endpoint decides what to do with the bytes 03:28:42 [HTTP example] 03:29:06 masinter: protocol could be "here's a uri, give me the bag of bytes and your best guess mime type" 03:29:17 paulc: we won't solve this today 03:29:41 masinter: one of the normative references marked safe 03:29:59 ... multipart form data, RFC2388 03:30:14 [RFC2388] Returning Values from Forms: multipart/form-data, L. Masinter. IETF. 03:30:25 ... hixie asked me to update it, since i wrote it 15 years ago 03:30:51 see http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/88/slides/slides-88-appsawg-8.pdf 03:30:52 ... turns out people didn't do non-ascii names like RFC2047 03:31:07 ... can we get some of the ietf specs updated to reflect new reality 03:31:34 ... it was a lot of work to convince ietf ADs etc. to do this work 03:32:03 [summarizes form processing material from slides linked above] 03:32:46 ... i have a github repo 03:32:53 https://github.com/masinter/multipart-form-data 03:33:59 a12u has joined #html-wg 03:34:01 WayneCarr has joined #html-wg 03:34:05 ... i put the whatwg spec in the repo to, so we can figure out what will need to change in it 03:34:23 q+ 03:34:27 ... i haven't fixed much 03:34:37 ack me 03:34:44 ... still some work to be done to align this with reality 03:35:05 q- 03:35:23 darobin: the classification i made is process-wise 03:35:39 ... in terms of interop, this work is needed 03:35:42 HTML_WG()8:00PM has now started 03:35:43 aizu has joined #html-wg 03:35:50 +[IPcaller] 03:36:00 masinter: you should edit the document to say this work is ongoing 03:36:01 Yougnsun_Ryu has joined #html-wg 03:36:09 ... don't make a time dependence on this 03:36:19 q- 03:36:24 ... we should proceed to work on this, but not make it the long tentpole 03:36:33 queue= 03:36:56 paulc: raising a bug on this would give us a great way to track this 03:36:57 zakim, IPcaller is WayneCarr 03:36:57 +WayneCarr; got it 03:37:29 masinter: i would love help on doing the technical work 03:37:49 paulc: good way to get help is to file a bug 03:38:29 yohsumi has joined #html-wg 03:38:42 zakim, who is on the phone? 03:38:42 On the phone I see WayneCarr 03:38:47 topic: joint meeting with web performance wg 03:39:06 ScribeNick: adrianba 03:39:21 q? 03:39:28 TOPIC: Web Performance 03:39:39 TOPIC: Prerender 03:39:44 http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-prerender 03:40:08 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 03:40:17 jmann: thanks for having us here - we have two topics that will be quick 03:40:23 ... first topic is prerender 03:40:34 ... we opened a bug 22737 03:40:36 kazho has joined #html-wg 03:40:38 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22737 03:40:42 aboyet has joined #html-wg 03:40:54 ... today the html5 spec defines link rel prefetch but doesn't define prerender 03:41:08 03:41:14 ... both IE and Chrome support prerender and while we have added the item into the registry we were hoping to also get it into the html5 spec 03:41:24 ... there was a discussion in the bug about putting in html 5.1 03:41:35 ... but we have two implementations so we wonder if it will be able to go to 5.0 03:41:51 ... they also support dns-prefetch - maybe we could bring this in too 03:41:59 igarashi has joined #html-wg 03:42:02 ... dns-prefetch isn't in this example but the approach is the same 03:42:28 ... this is the first item 03:42:38 paulc: comments from the floor? 03:42:46 ... either the general functionality or moving into 5.0? 03:42:56 ... reps from webperf say they have interop 03:43:12 jmann: we can provide test cases 03:43:18 paulc: is there a spec? 03:43:28 plh: you are looking at it 03:43:34 ... the spec says to do what we did and add to the wiki 03:43:41 ... this is the spec as best as we can so far 03:43:50 paulc: are there other rel values in this page? 03:44:01 plh: this is just one value - dns-prefetch is somewhere else on the same wiki 03:45:18 paulc: the html5 spec proposed to use extensibility using the wiki 03:45:28 hoyang has joined #html-wg 03:45:38 ... why would we make your proposals more important by putting in the spec 03:45:54 jmann: because the spec includes prefetch - it is odd to only have half of the solution 03:46:06 hoyang has left #html-wg 03:46:16 plh: also this one has an impact on user agents - for example, the license one you looked at doesn't have an impact on UA 03:46:24 ... like prefetch, these have an impact on UAs 03:46:35 sho has joined #html-wg 03:46:51 paulc: so the list is two parts, those that impact UAs and those that don't and you would like to propose to get these into HTML5 because they do impact UA 03:47:04 q? 03:47:19 list of rel values is at http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions 03:47:44 http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions 03:47:47 larry: http 2.0 group is working on this using a push model 03:48:02 ... and you might question the long term stability of this feature because of that 03:48:32 arvin: the http 2 implementation for push is different than this 03:48:39 ... that is when the web server knows what to push 03:48:48 https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Controlling_DNS_prefetching 03:48:54 http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/dns-prefetching 03:48:59 ... but this is where the publisher is making a hint to the browser to decide what to do 03:49:10 rniwa: one qualifying question 03:49:28 ... is the prerender required, are UAs required to do this or is it a hint 03:49:31 arvin: this is a hint 03:49:41 rniwa: so it is still valid if you don't do this 03:50:07 Daniel_Austin: how do developers do this in http2? web developers do this in mark-up 03:50:23 paulc: i think larry is saying that if servers are pushing and UAs pulling they have to work together 03:50:40 ... as co-chair, you have done the right thing putting it into wiki 03:50:55 ... you have asked us about putting in html 03:51:19 ... plan 2014 says publish an extension spec and if you catch up in time then it can be folded into html5 03:51:42 ... so if you have the spec with the test cases and through the process and you catch-up to html 5.0 then you could better propose adding in 03:51:58 ... worst case you miss the train but you have the spec and demonstrate interop 03:52:11 n1362 has joined #html-wg 03:52:25 TOPIC: Resource Priorities update 03:52:47 jmann: second item is webperf wg is working on new spec called resource priorities 03:52:56 ... touches html and we wanted to make sure there is visibility 03:53:02 ... want to get your feedback 03:53:10 ... today browsers download resources in doc order 03:53:18 ... we don't have signal from dev about what is important 03:53:30 ... we want dev to give browser a hint about what is important 03:53:39 ... we have lazy load attribute to give to elements 03:53:40 can you provide a link about this, thank you? 03:53:50 http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/ 03:54:00 ... in cases of constrained network, for example, no more connections available 03:54:01 thanks 03:54:03 http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/#attr-lazyload 03:54:11 ... priority would be given to elements that do not have this attribute 03:54:23 http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/#attr-postpone 03:54:30 ... we are also considering postpone attribute which means don't download unless in the viewport 03:54:38 ... touches image element for example 03:54:48 ... want people to see this and give feedback 03:55:01 ... may be in this one spec or maybe we put html pieces in html and svg in svg 03:55:02 q? 03:55:03 q+ 03:55:15 ... but we're doing end to end design first 03:55:28 darobin: as a general comment this is interesting - of course needs work 03:55:41 ... in terms of putting in html spec i don't think we need everything related to html in the html spec 03:55:51 ... big doc published not often 03:56:10 ... if can define orthogonal and can implement on its own then in general better not to touch html spec 03:56:19 ... not rejecting idea - just a process question 03:56:24 ... this simplifies life 03:56:31 zakim, call Shenzhen 03:56:31 ok, WayneCarr; the call is being made 03:56:33 +Shenzhen 03:56:34 ... of course sometimes it makes no sense to stay outside 03:56:42 zakim, who is on the phone? 03:56:42 On the phone I see WayneCarr (muted), Shenzhen (muted) 03:57:07 zakim, unmute Shenzhen 03:57:07 Shenzhen should no longer be muted 03:57:15 zakim, unmute shenzhen 03:57:15 Shenzhen was not muted, adrianba 03:57:38 paulc: if it is an extension spec then needs to track whether it applies to new elements 03:57:54 q+ 03:58:07 ... but it isn't amending deep understanding of algorithm, where having that outside makes life harder 03:58:34 darobin: for example, html template was making parser changes and was hard to review 03:59:06 darobin: next question is bikeshedding but it looks like lazy load is not doing lazy load 03:59:21 q+ 03:59:23 ... lazy load is load when you need it but this is about not loading when resource restricted 03:59:26 ack darobin 03:59:39 jmann: we're open to name changes - initially was defer but that existed 03:59:50 ... looking for single word - it is fpwd looking for ideas 03:59:57 http://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/1015-webperf-update/#/7 03:59:57 ack plh3 04:00:00 ack plh 04:00:15 myakura has joined #html-wg 04:00:17 plh: i did presentation about lazy load last month listing how it affects script element 04:00:28 ... we are modifying ordering of when things happen 04:00:31 ... both for async and defer 04:00:52 haxy has joined #html-wg 04:01:18 ... so that would modify precise ordering question especially for defer 04:01:28 ... then maybe that would be one consideration 04:01:35 wrt name changes, I propose swapping 'postpone' and 'lazyload' 04:01:50 darobin: good point - if impacting the way script is loading when it is supposed to be deterministic then it warrants a change to the spec 04:02:10 larry: if resources are on multiple servers then it can't be deterministic 04:02:44 since postpone is really more about lazyloading, and lazyload seems to be more about postponing 04:03:24 adrianba: the html5 spec does make it deterministic today so this would be a change 04:03:42 q? 04:03:47 ack hober 04:04:29 hober: more of a css question - how does the webperf wg think this will work with postpone in css? 04:04:43 jmann: we're considering removing that piece - we put it in to get broad feedback 04:04:59 ... with the network layer and styling being far apart it doesn't make much sense 04:05:06 ... we got lots of good feedback yesterday 04:05:10 ... and so the spec is out of date 04:05:17 ... so please review and continue to give feedback 04:05:28 paulc: did we meet the webperf wg goals? 04:05:33 ... about how to fold things in to html5 04:05:40 ... and getting visibility 04:05:46 ... we will hold people to plan 2014 04:05:59 s/this will work with postpone in css/the postpone value of the resource-priorities css property will interact with the preload scanner/ 04:06:20 paulc: we have lunch from now until 1.30 for EME 04:06:57 rrsagent, make minutes 04:06:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba 04:07:18 -WayneCarr 04:08:05 masinter has joined #html-wg 04:10:44 saki_ has joined #html-wg 04:11:25 quit 04:11:47 koji has joined #html-wg 04:24:46 xiaoqian_ has joined #html-wg 04:35:11 jernoble_ has joined #html-wg 04:36:12 tao has joined #html-WG 04:42:03 Tomoyuki has joined #html-wg 04:45:44 ddavis has joined #html-wg 04:46:45 taocai has joined #html-wg 05:04:18 dsinger has joined #html-wg 05:05:11 silvia has joined #html-wg 05:08:34 Noriya_ has joined #HTML-WG 05:12:53 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 05:13:54 AutomatedTester has joined #html-wg 05:14:02 igarashi has joined #html-wg 05:14:09 yosuke has joined #html-wg 05:14:14 plh has joined #html-wg 05:15:02 shan has joined #html-wg 05:22:05 tantek has joined #html-wg 05:23:02 Noriya has joined #HTML-WG 05:24:05 danny_ has joined #html-wg 05:25:46 saki has joined #html-wg 05:27:02 saki_ has joined #html-wg 05:28:33 Eliot has joined #html-wg 05:28:58 adrianba has joined #html-wg 05:32:19 koji has joined #html-wg 05:33:00 Youngsun_Ryu has joined #html-wg 05:34:16 myakura has joined #html-wg 05:34:19 koji_ has joined #html-wg 05:34:23 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 05:35:28 koji has joined #html-wg 05:37:14 -Shenzhen 05:37:15 HTML_WG()8:00PM has ended 05:37:15 Attendees were WayneCarr, Shenzhen 05:37:30 gwm has joined #html-wg 05:37:59 zakim, what call is this? 05:37:59 I don't understand your question, adrianba. 05:38:04 zakim, code? 05:38:04 the conference code is hidden, adrianba 05:38:21 paulc has joined #html-wg 05:38:28 zakim, who is on the phone? 05:38:28 apparently HTML_WG()8:00PM has ended, paulc 05:38:30 On IRC I see paulc, gwm, koji, ddorwin, myakura, Youngsun_Ryu, adrianba, Eliot, saki_, shan, plh, yosuke, igarashi, AutomatedTester, silvia, dsinger, ddavis, Tomoyuki, tao, 05:38:30 ... jernoble_, kazho, fantasai, Zakim, chaals, lgombos, glenn, Lachy, krit 05:38:46 track0at, start meeting 05:38:49 aizu has joined #html-wg 05:38:53 trackbot, start meeting 05:38:55 RRSAgent, make logs public 05:38:57 Zakim, this will be html_wg 05:38:57 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 05:38:58 Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference 05:38:58 Date: 15 November 2013 05:39:04 kuroawa has joined #html-wg 05:39:10 rrsagent, make minutes 05:39:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc 05:39:17 markw has joined #html-wg 05:39:23 zakim, call Shenzhen 05:39:23 sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is 05:40:06 Topic: EME bugs Part 3 05:40:08 test 05:40:15 rrsagent, make minutes 05:40:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc 05:41:10 Noriya has joined #HTML-WG 05:41:48 Bug 23619 - Drop or change MediaKeyError constant prefix 05:41:53 mkelly has joined #html-wg 05:42:11 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23619 05:42:18 ScribeNick: hober 05:42:53 paulc: recent comment: do we use an enum or character error codes 05:43:04 ... david is looking for suggestions on how to do this 05:43:08 see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23619#c6 05:43:13 adrianba: we asked alex and travis for guidance on this 05:43:19 igarashi has joined #html-wg 05:43:21 ... we probably need a bit more help to get this right 05:43:32 sunyang has joined #html-wg 05:43:34 ... the solution is to use the name attribute of error 05:43:51 ... we also need the system code, we can't use DOMError, so we'll extend it 05:44:05 ... this way we don't have to define a list of numeric values 05:44:12 Zac has joined #html-wg 05:44:22 koji has joined #html-wg 05:44:41 paulc: which of numeric short or string do you end up using? 05:44:44 adrianba: neither 05:44:58 ... this bug represents the pattern we should use 05:45:02 rniwa has joined #html-wg 05:45:06 koji has joined #html-wg 05:45:13 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21798 05:45:20 ... bug 21798 is the bug which tracks exactly what the errors should be and what strings we'll need 05:45:33 sorry I can't be tehre in person; happy to help design a good answer; likely with Yehuda, Travis, and Anne. 05:45:37 shoko has joined #html-wg 05:45:45 Proposed errors are in thread at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0011.html 05:46:24 adrianba: for now we can say that these two bugs track the errors related to sessions 05:46:40 ... we need to finalize granularity of errors 05:46:56 ... ongoing discussion; we probably won't finish up this meeting 05:47:08 paulc: action on edtitors to make a concrete proposal? 05:47:16 annevk has joined #html-wg 05:47:51 ... yes, editors will resolve these two bugs 05:48:46 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21203 05:48:48 yohsumi has joined #html-wg 05:49:13 adrianba: we've revisited this several times to get all the issues raised 05:49:18 ... bug is misnamed now 05:49:30 see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0011.html 05:49:35 ... there are a couple of interrelated things here 05:49:41 ... this is also error related 05:49:53 Travis has joined #html-wg 05:50:41 ... previously we tried to define the error that would occur when an application unaware of eme tries to load encrypted content 05:50:57 ... when the needkey is fired, it was providing information about the media to the application 05:51:03 ... that can't happen cross-origin 05:51:09 ... so we also threw an error 05:51:15 ... this is complicated 05:51:24 ... but we've arrived at a simpler approach 05:51:28 ... described in comment 30 05:51:44 saki has joined #html-wg 05:51:55 ... instead of throwing an error, we will fire the needkey event again but without the init data 05:52:11 ... if an app can get the init data from another source, it could continue playing 05:52:34 ... instead of detecting apps which can't handle eme, we know that the media element will block waiting for a key and it'll never get one 05:52:46 ... which is fine since it never would have played anyway 05:53:10 ... this lets us eliminate MEDIA_ERR_ENCRYPTED 05:53:20 see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21203#c30 05:53:25 ... this is a bit messy, since we're extending an enum from HTML5 05:53:38 ... there's a risk of collision, so it's nice to eliminate the need to do that 05:53:53 paulc: you now have a way forward here? 05:53:56 adrianba: yes 05:54:20 ... we will implement this soon unless we get objections 05:54:39 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17750 05:55:29 darobin has joined #html-wg 05:55:31 see https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/rev/196e6b904b22 05:55:42 adrianba: i've implemented most of what's necessary for the new closed state 05:56:08 paulc: would you like an answer to the question here (in the bug) 05:56:37 adrianba: i wasn't sure how to handle this re: key release; maybe it should be discussed when we talk about that bug 05:56:51 ... maybe we need another bug for finishing key release 05:57:17 ... i have to update the diagram to match the new text 05:57:27 s/diagram/state transition diagram/ 05:58:03 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23827 05:58:32 adrianba: this is how we're tracking features at risk for cr 05:58:56 ... keysystem attribute of source element 05:59:06 ... had a bug to remove the attr 05:59:23 ... we will keep it for now, but if people don't implement it, there's a concern 05:59:30 ... so this is a good candidate for the cr at risk list 05:59:44 ... wondering where keyrelease will fit into this 05:59:52 ... haven't heard of any planned implementation 06:00:01 ... at least in the same timeframe as the rest of the spec 06:00:15 ... there's a bunch of remaining work to do to define key release 06:00:46 ... raises the question: should we spend the time now to add it (in v1) given the lack of implementor interest? 06:00:50 q+ 06:01:08 paulc: you mean, if we're going to put it at risk, should we even bother finishing the work on it now 06:01:11 adrianba: yes 06:01:37 markw: 1) what exactly do we need to document for key release 06:01:56 ... may want to document as little as possible, like the heartbeat feature 06:02:22 ... with key release, you just go through the PENDING state into the CLOSED state 06:02:36 ... we need a mechanism to retreive an old session 06:02:58 ... could explicitly provide session id for previous session 06:03:14 ... 2) should this be at risk? i expect there to be implementations 06:03:24 ... i don't have problems marking things as at risk 06:03:33 ... maybe doing so will cause implementations to happen sooner 06:03:47 paulc: is this a feature of significant value you'd want to use on your site? 06:03:51 markw: yes 06:04:16 paulc: which bug is this under? 17199? 06:04:19 WayneCarr has joined #html-wg 06:04:22 markw: arguably yes 06:04:47 ... with the CLOSED state, we could declare the messaging in that case done, which just leaves recovering pre-existing sessions 06:04:53 ChristianFuhrhop has joined #html-wg 06:04:54 Key releas MRDV (minimum required to declare victory) is in bug 17199: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17199 06:05:05 q+ 06:05:09 ack markw 06:05:10 ack markw 06:05:19 rniwa has joined #html-wg 06:05:37 ddorwin: there are various other scenarios that we're not targeting here 06:06:22 [...scribe missed...] 06:06:36 ddorwin: there's a whole host of other issues we may need to deal with 06:06:36 ack m 06:06:40 ack me 06:06:48 yang has joined #html-wg 06:06:56 nkic has joined #html-wg 06:07:12 adrianba: sounds like mark is happy to do the editing work for this 06:07:19 markw: we need to decide what we want to do first 06:07:33 adrianba: build a strawman and add it; people will file bugs on it 06:08:00 ddorwin: section 5 is just sitting there; need to revisit after this 06:08:12 paulc: looks like 17199 is on markw 06:08:24 ... media tf meets in ~2 weeks 06:08:34 jjj has joined #HTML-wg 06:08:35 ... please send agenda info on this to the list 06:09:29 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23828 06:09:39 ddorwin: this is related to the source element 06:09:52 ... how to most reliably get best performance across impls 06:10:03 ... you can get that with source element instead of js 06:10:25 ... this bug suggests to create new media keys with the key system when you have a source element match 06:10:40 ... implicitly run when source element is selected 06:11:39 adrianba: it seems like a simple change 06:12:10 paulc: what haven't we touched? 06:12:16 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19156 06:12:36 ddorwin: did this yesterday 06:12:56 igarashi2 has joined #html-wg 06:12:56 see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19156#c9 06:13:17 s/19156/20991/ 06:13:24 s/19156/20991/ 06:13:35 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19156 06:13:51 ddorwin: we added the suggested text and removed some old incompatible text 06:14:07 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20991 for previous discussion 06:14:07 ... this discussion led to the new bug we just talked about (23828) 06:14:34 adrianba: wanted people to know we've done this work 06:14:46 ... and how we arrived at the followup questions 06:15:02 ddorwin: we closed some other bugs during the meeting 06:15:14 [bug math] 06:15:33 paulc: we're making progress 06:15:48 ... these 15 bugs are all in progress 06:15:55 kotakagi has joined #html-wg 06:15:57 ... any specific ones you want review on? 06:16:02 ddorwin: the error codes one 06:16:11 paulc: getting the granularity correct 06:16:13 taocai has joined #html-wg 06:16:14 ddorwin: yes 06:16:36 Thread on error codes would be good to get input on: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0011.html 06:16:53 ddorwin: we want to make sure the error codes we define have use cases 06:16:57 mark_vickers has joined #html-wg 06:17:07 ... error codes that an application can actually do something with 06:17:21 rniwa has joined #html-wg 06:17:24 Noriya_ has joined #HTML-WG 06:17:48 zakim, who is on the phone? 06:17:48 apparently HTML_WG()8:00PM has ended, WayneCarr 06:17:48 adrianba: it's not whether to signal an error, but when to distinguish errors 06:17:49 On IRC I see Noriya_, rniwa, mark_vickers, taocai, kotakagi, igarashi2, jjj, nkic, ChristianFuhrhop, WayneCarr, darobin, Travis, yohsumi, annevk, shoko, Zac, sunyang, markw, 06:17:49 ... kuroawa, aizu, paulc, gwm, ddorwin, Youngsun_Ryu, adrianba, Eliot 06:18:05 ... is an app going to display something different to the user when it sees a different error code? 06:18:24 annevk has left #html-wg 06:18:35 rrsagent, gernerate minutes 06:18:35 I'm logging. I don't understand 'gernerate minutes', paulc. Try /msg RRSAgent help 06:18:45 rrsagent, generate minutes 06:18:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc 06:19:07 adrianba: we haven't yet talked about bug 21854 06:19:23 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21854 06:19:29 igarashi has joined #html-wg 06:19:47 Noriya__ has joined #HTML-WG 06:20:15 adrianba: we're debating : should an application be able to call update at any point? 06:20:33 ... my proposal is that we should be precise about when you're allowed to call update 06:20:49 dezell has joined #html-wg 06:20:49 ... ddorwin has some cases where he would like more flexibility 06:21:05 glenn_ has joined #html-wg 06:21:18 adrianba: we talked about all the other bugs yesterday 06:21:26 paulc: yes 06:21:26 markw_ has joined #html-wg 06:21:40 dezell has left #html-wg 06:22:09 topic : adjournment 06:22:16 paulc: thank you everyone for attending 06:22:27 ... neither the wg nor the media tf are meeting next week 06:22:36 adrianba has left #html-wg 06:22:50 ... i encourage people who participated in the canvas discussion to join the a11y tf call on thursday 06:23:03 ... still haven't decided what the plan is for the next F2F 06:23:07 ... likely to be in the spring 06:23:23 igarashi has joined #html-wg 06:23:28 ... other working groups are interested in colocating 06:23:42 ... we'll start planning in more detail in december 06:23:46 hax has joined #html-wg 06:24:04 daniel_austin: ebay hosted 5 wgs last spring, including html and webapps 06:24:14 ... we'd be more than happy to do it again this coming spring 06:24:22 paulc: thank you for the offer! 06:24:27 ... we are adjourned 06:24:33 RRSAgent: make minutes 06:24:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html hober 06:26:45 igarashi has left #html-wg 06:27:39 glenn has joined #html-wg 06:30:56 Ruinan_ has joined #html-wg 06:32:34 ChristianFuhrhop has left #html-wg 06:32:55 Tomoyuki has joined #html-wg 06:33:01 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kimwoonyoung has joined #html-wg 16:41:04 rniwa has joined #html-wg 16:42:19 gitbot has joined #html-wg 16:42:19 01[13html01] 15darobin pushed 3 new commits to 06feature/whatwg: 02https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/a43f5fb21c05...61c8f70f00ad 16:42:19 13html/06feature/whatwg 144ec120e 15ianh: [giow] (2) Move javascript: processing entirely into HTML, and fix its definitions to match reality better at the same time.... 16:42:19 13html/06feature/whatwg 14fac6cac 15ianh: [giow] (2) Define the task settings for the javascript: task... 16:42:19 13html/06feature/whatwg 1461c8f70 15ianh: [e] (0) Mention that scripted changes don't fire 'input' and 'change' on .... 16:42:19 gitbot has left #html-wg 16:44:46 ddorwin has joined #html-wg 17:00:46 myakura has joined #html-wg 17:01:01 yoav has joined #html-wg 17:12:13 denis has joined #html-wg 17:14:03 jjj has joined #HTML-wg 17:29:50 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 17:35:44 jernoble_ has joined #html-wg 18:01:08 myakura has joined #html-wg 18:01:59 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