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00:43:22 trackbot, start meeting
00:43:24 RRSAgent, make logs public
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00:43:26 Zakim, this will be html_wg
00:43:26 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
00:43:27 Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
00:43:27 Date: 14 November 2013
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00:45:10 zakim, what is the code?
00:45:10 sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is
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00:54:14 We are trying to get the conference setup with a polycom. Please be patient.
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00:56:48 paulc: I'm assuming this channel be the one used for all html-wg proceedings? The wiki states #html-media
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01:00:53 I will fix the wiki,
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01:02:34 The teleconference code with be HTML (4865) once we are setup.
01:03:08 zakim, list conferences
01:03:08 I see Team_(crypto)00:35Z, UW_MdCap()7:00PM, WAI_Indie()7:00PM, W3C_AC(*Shenzhen)7:00PM active
01:03:11 also scheduled at this time is Team_(eo)00:07Z
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01:04:09 Zakim, call Shenzhen
01:04:09 sorry, MikeSmith, I don't know what conference this is
01:04:21 trackbot, start meeting
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01:04:23 RRSAgent, make logs public
01:04:25 Zakim, this will be html_wg
01:04:25 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
01:04:26 Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
01:04:26 Date: 14 November 2013
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01:04:55 Zakim, room for 10?
01:04:57 ok, MikeSmith; conference Team_(html-wg)01:04Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 0204Z
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01:06:09 zakim, this is 26631
01:06:09 glenn__, I see Team_(html-wg)01:04Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 26631".
01:06:18 zakim, this will be 26631
01:06:18 ok, glenn__; I see Team_(html-wg)01:04Z scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
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01:06:28 zakim, please call shenzhen
01:06:28 ok, glenn__; the call is being made
01:06:29 Team_(html-wg)01:04Z has now started
01:06:30 +Shenzhen
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01:07:06 mikesmith: i took care of it
01:07:50 Present+ Adrian_Bateman
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01:08:04 Present+ Glenn_Adams
01:08:23 Present+ Arnaud_Braud
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01:11:32 http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda
01:11:33 http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda
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01:11:52 http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda
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01:12:11 paulc: I'm getting "The conference is restricted at this time" when I try to join the call.
01:12:41 acolwell: discussing it now
01:13:03 ddorwin: ok.
01:13:04 fan has joined #html-wg
01:13:34 …MikeSmith is looking into it I believe.
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01:13:57 Starting to discuss agenda.
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01:18:27 acolwell, I can skype you in from my laptop for now if you want
01:19:02 honestly the sound quality from the polycoms in these big rooms is close to useless anyway
01:20:47 Zakim, who's on the phone?
01:20:47 On the phone I see Shenzhen
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01:21:18 +Amy
01:21:24 -Amy
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01:23:12 acolwell: Someone else was able to dial in. Please could you try again? The code is 26631 (CONF1)
01:24:10 +Aaron_Colwell
01:25:05 adrianba: hi
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01:27:43 Present+ Jonathan_Jeon
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01:29:01 present+ mark_vickers
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01:35:05 + +1.925.648.aaaa
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01:35:38 Zakim, aaaa is me
01:35:38 +joesteele_; got it
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01:39:09 zakim, who is on the phone?
01:39:09 On the phone I see Shenzhen, Aaron_Colwell, joesteele_
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01:41:28 All MSE LC bugs: http://tinyurl.com/lfq3scr
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01:42:22 scribe: cyns
01:42:31 TOPIC: MSE last call bug discussion and moving to CR
01:43:24 PC: 23663 resolved fixed
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01:43:51 acolwell: you're breaking up. You may want to type a summary
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01:44:07 made proposed text changes
01:44:07 acolwell: We can't really hear you
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01:44:31 actual change: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23663#c2
01:44:42 provided links to discussion about primer and preference for algorithmic text instead of duplicate informative text
01:45:39 q+
01:46:00 PC: updated 2.4.3 with changes proposed in comment 1
01:46:20 ack adrianba
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01:47:17 AB: we talked about this on the last conferece call and the conclusion was that in general this was a duplicate request of the ones for an MSE primer. The spec is currently focused on what is needed to implement MSE, and we've asked for volunteers for an authoring guide
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01:47:46 AB: this bug is for more details on how to use API, we still have that request pending. Aaron made a small change to clarify
01:48:06 q+
01:48:27 PC: Aaron has implemented the chagne that was previously agreed upon. response to comment is that we need a volunteer
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01:49:00 CC: I am considering volunteering.
01:49:23 CC: we also talked about where it would be. is webplatforms.org the right place?
01:49:48 http://www.webplatform.org/
01:49:54 PC: webplatform.org is a project in w3 to document as much of web platform as possible. anyone can supply documentation
01:50:16 EG: we would welcome that contact on webplatform.org
01:50:20 s/webplatforms.org/www.webplatform.org/
01:51:00 PC: Eliott can help you get started. I know you were worried about how much work. On webplatform.org, you can start an outline and crowdsource the rest.
01:51:17 PC: only outstanding bug is 23619
01:51:21 Bug 23169 - reconsider the jitter video quality metrics again
01:51:46 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169
01:52:06 PC: this was originally closed. David Singer asked to have it reopened. I've been trying to get David or Apple to give us some feedback.
01:52:22 PC: David is at the AG meeting. Sending Cyril to go get him
01:53:54 PC: bug 23441
01:54:09 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23441
01:54:21 Pieer Lemieux repoppended. asking for a text change.
01:55:02 text implied that if text was not listed in table it could never be used
01:55:15 +1
01:55:19 PC: ask the editors to implement change in comment 3
01:55:19 q+
01:55:32 ack cyr
01:55:33 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23441#c3 is the proposed change,
01:55:58 Does this also Adrian's concern about the language being strong enough?
01:56:03 ack acol
01:56:10 yes
01:56:13 ok
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01:56:47 scribe: cyns
01:56:57 scribe: cyns_
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01:57:32 PC: the last bug 23169
01:57:36 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169#c13
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01:58:28 DS: the comment was that the sum of all frame delays. If you're a small amount late, it won't matter because it will hit the same refresh
01:59:06 DS: 2000 frames there were each 5 seconds late is very different from 5 frames that are miliseconds late
01:59:22 DS: we weren't sure this would help us detect that the media engine is getting into trouble
01:59:28 q?
01:59:32 Orginal problems: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169#c0
01:59:38 DS: we weren't sure that this metric was useful.
02:00:20 see bug comment for details
02:01:38 q+
02:02:00 ack cyril
02:02:14 CC: who would provide the threshold? the applciation or the engine?
02:02:24 DS: intitalized to a default, then app would set it
02:02:26 ack
02:03:21 BW: Option 3 is best. can't have a bunch of isolated late frames without having a lot stacked up behind very late ones, or you'll see drop frames.
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02:04:21 BW: you'd want to sample more often. Behind each very late frame, eitehr all the ones behind it are rendered and they are also late, or they are dropped. I feel like you can do it with a modified version fo the existing text.
02:05:17 DS: 2.5 seconds late will result in a burst of late seconds. 10 frames late is badly late, but 10 frame lateness may not be distinguisable from 50 frames taht are slightly late. There may be a serious grey area.
02:06:00 BW: Isn't that the same example? distinguising the one that is a lot late from many that are a little late.
02:06:05 q+
02:06:09 DS: there is a grey area
02:06:14 q+
02:06:20 BW: I don't think it is very big
02:06:37 s/eitehr/either/
02:06:37 PC: 3 alternatives. I've heard one vote for #3.
02:06:42 q?
02:07:00 Should we defer this metric until we have more implementation experience with MSE? Netflix and YouTube are already shipping adaptive streaming players based on top of MSE w/o this and are essentially using prefixed versions of totalVideoFrames and droppedVideoFrames. It doesn't feel like this should block MSE from moving forward since this is essentially an extension of the HTMLVideoElement.
02:07:14 DS: this was the most minor part. If we want more experience with this metric before changing, that's ok
02:07:57 ack acolwell
02:08:35 PC: what we're saying is that there is no measure of late frames in those 2 numbers?
02:08:59 DS: today we have totalvideoframes, droppedvideoframes, and totalframedelay.
02:09:31 PS: If you only have the total delay, you don't have a measure of slightly late and noticeably late
02:09:37 ack adrianba
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02:10:25 AB: I think what aaron was suggesting was similar. I think Aaron's suggestion is that people aren't currently using the frame delay in their experimental implementations based on browswers currently supporting this.
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02:10:47 AB: I think Aaron's proposal is that we move forward and he doesn't think this is blocking.
02:11:04 +1
02:11:19 It may be that we need experience with multiple media engines, and finding the cases where we are not adapting appropriately because of the 'strange' behavior of some media engine(s). We did not intend this as a blocking issue (indeed, expected it to be deferred as we posted it after a deadline).
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02:11:43 AB: my comment was going to be that we should have the chagnes Mark talked about to chagne the approach so it's based on frame rate. Perhaps we can mark this at risk, and determine during impl whether this is correct, doesn't matter, or needs to be modified.
02:12:02 PC: Can I have a better definition of what mark wants to change
02:12:10 I'm fine with including Mark's proposed text
02:12:29 change is in comment 15
02:12:34 see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169#c15
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02:13:36 PC: we talked offline, DS wasn't expecting to block last call. could this be marked at risk and ask for impl
02:13:36 s/chagnes/changes/
02:13:59 DS: Mark's changes will allow us to cover the important part of the bug.
02:14:10 PC: editors, do you know what changes you need to make?
02:14:34 s/chagne/change/
02:14:49 AB: Mark made a proposal for specific chagnes. DS was that ok?
02:15:03 DS: yes, his changes fixed my points 1&3, 4 can be handled late
02:15:12 PC: what section is this in?
02:15:19 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#videoplaybackquality
02:15:39 so, summary, fix points 1-3 by editing, mark totalFrameDelay as 'at risk' or under consideration, get implementation experience with a variety of media engines and uses, and see where we go?
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02:16:10 PC: make changes in explanation in section 5 VideoPlaybackQuality Object
02:16:19 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
02:16:31 PC: all last call bugs are processed with good disposition. Next step is propose to go to CR
02:16:38