IRC log of tpac on 2013-11-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

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-Ralph
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-Wayne_Carr
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00:50:43 [PhilA]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013
00:50:57 [PhilA]
topic: Welcome
00:51:19 [Zakim]
+Ralph
00:51:22 [Zakim]
-Wuzhou_middle
00:51:23 [Zakim]
+Wuzhou_middle
00:51:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.264.aacc - is perhaps Wayne_Carr
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+[IPcaller]
00:52:28 [fjh]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
00:52:28 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
00:52:49 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
00:52:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wuzhou_middle, Ralph (muted), Wayne_Carr (muted), fjh (muted)
00:52:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see brett, ivan, adrianba, maria, shadi, Ian, dom, gcapiel, RRSAgent, Ralph, PhilA, dsr, ArtB, WayneCarr, Ralph_, fjh, Zakim, amy, SteveF, fantasai, SimonSapin, olivier,
00:52:51 [Zakim]
... timeless, Josh_Soref, DV, Yves, rigo, ed, wseltzer, heycam|away, jgraham
00:52:53 [PhilA]
Wu Yi Huan (Vice-Mayor of Shenzhen) arrives, introduced to TimBL
00:53:08 [PhilA]
scribe: PhilA
00:53:14 [PhilA]
scribeNick: PhilA
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00:54:10 [PhilA]
jeff: Welcomes everyone
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00:55:16 [PhilA]
Thanks Tencent for their sponsorship, coordination and help in bringing TPAC to China
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is Paul Cotton, HTML WG co-chair
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00:55:39 [PhilA]
Jeff: Also thanks city of Shenzhen and our Beihang Host in Beijing
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00:56:04 [PhilA]
jeff: we'll have a brief welcome from each of those organisations
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WuYiHuan: On behalf of the mayor and the city of Shenzhen, welcome
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00:58:42 [PhilA]
WuYiHuan: Shenzhen is on the south coast of China - a young city in a pleasant environment. We have won many awards, incl. city of design. Known for piano, golf and libraries
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WuYiHuan: As part of opening up, welcomes competition and more
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WuYiHuan: Over 3 decades, many start ups have begun and gone global, incl. Tencent
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01:00:36 [PhilA]
WuYiHuan: We are striving to achieve sustainable socio-economic growth. Shenzhen broke more than 200 bn USD in business
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WuYiHuan: This is the first TPAC outside the US/EU - Shenzhen was a good choice
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01:02:26 [PhilA]
WuYiHuan: This meeting will, I believe, be a boost to the ICT industries in the Pear River Delta area. Will advance Shenzhen's work in standardisation globally
01:02:49 [PhilA]
WuYiHuan: Finally, I'd like to wish the meeting a great success
01:02:53 [PhilA]
(applause)
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jeff: Prof. Jinpeng Huai is the person I've worked with closely over the years on opening the Beihang Host
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01:03:56 [PhilA]
Topic: Prof. Jinpeng Huai
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01:04:42 [PhilA]
JinpengHuai: On behalf of Beihang host, welcome to TPAC. First time this event has been held in China
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01:05:16 [PhilA]
JinpengHuai: Shenzhen is a showpiece of China's opening up. Now among the most far developing cities in China. Home of China's most successful hi-tech companies
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01:06:02 [PhilA]
JinpengHuai: On its way to becoming the biggest online market
01:06:39 [PhilA]
JinpengHuai: This week, a 24 hour online shopping carnival - many billions of US dollars spent
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01:07:34 [PhilA]
JinpengHuai: The Web platform includes increasing numbers of Chinese-origin ideas
01:08:02 [PhilA]
JinpengHuai: Open Data opens many possibilities
01:08:35 [PhilA]
JinpengHuai: Beihang became first host of W3C in China - helping industry in Asia Pacific build the Web
01:09:08 [PhilA]
JinpengHuai: We really appreciate the generosity of Tencent - I wish you a successful TPAC here in Shenzhen
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01:10:00 [PhilA]
Jeff: Prof Huai and I have both praised Tencent... so welcome Dowson Tong
01:10:04 [PhilA]
Topic: Dowson Tong
01:10:34 [PhilA]
DowsonTong: As exclusive host for W3C TPAC2013, honoured to welcome you to Shenzhen
01:11:06 [PhilA]
DowsonTong: W3C continues to drive the development of the Web. Tencent joined 2 years ago to make our contribution to this
01:11:44 [PhilA]
DowsonTong: 15 years ago, Tencent was founded here. Since then we have grown a great deal. QQ (browser/messenger) is the most used in China
01:12:11 [PhilA]
DowsonTong: Our services that Chinese companies use depend on the open standards of the Web
01:12:20 [PhilA]
... that's why we're here
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01:12:38 [PhilA]
... finally - wish you success for TPAC and enjoy your stay in Shenzhen
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01:13:35 [PhilA]
Jeff: The Tech Plenary focuses on technical developments. We have a morning full of presentations on the tech developments in W3C.
01:13:49 [PhilA]
Topic: Normative References (Philippe Le Hgaret, Ralph Swick)
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01:14:32 [PhilA]
Jeff: It's a question that comes up - how and when can W3C specs refer to external docs normatively
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01:15:27 [PhilA]
Plh: Slides are available at http://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references
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01:15:56 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/1113-normative-references/ Slides on Normative References
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01:16:06 [PhilA]
Ralph: We wanted to talk about changes we've made to make transition easier
01:16:16 [PhilA]
Slide 1
01:16:22 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references Criteria used by the Director to evaluate normative references
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01:17:49 [PhilA]
Ralph: The existing policy has worked well but it's become a problem in recent years. If we needed to refer to something normatively, required whole external doc to be of similar status, including non-W3C standards
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01:18:42 [PhilA]
Ralph: The director, often delegated to Philippe and me, looks at the normative references (slide 2)
01:19:01 [PhilA]
Slide 3
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01:20:09 [dsinger]
the document doesn't seem to address the stability of the 'pointer' itself; i.e. given the reference text in the W3C document, can the intended referenced text actually be found over time? ideally, the document has a stable URL
01:20:20 [PhilA]
Ralph: Grouped what we think of as important into 3 groups
01:20:22 [PhilA]
Slide 4
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01:21:11 [Zakim]
-Ralph
01:22:46 [PhilA]
Ralph: Ian Jacobs has written about this in relation how others should refer to our documents. That's out of scope for our work - we're just talking about references made within our own docs
01:22:56 [PhilA]
plh: Slide 5
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rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html chaals
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01:24:15 [PhilA]
plh: Third bullet is more fine grained. How stable is the referred to element within a doc? It might be stable although others around it might not be.
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01:25:09 [PhilA]
plh: Are you referring to a feature or just a name? Often these days a spec references a definition so it doesn't need to rely on the details
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rrsagent, make log public
01:25:40 [chaals]
Present+ chaals
01:25:48 [chaals]
Chair: Jeff
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01:26:07 [PhilA]
plh: slide 6
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01:26:19 [dsinger]
nor does the text establish that the document can in fact be acquired 'reasonably' (e.g. you don't have to sign a license just to get the document, or join another body, or the like).
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01:26:47 [PhilA]
plh: Market may have a view on stability and need for progress
01:27:00 [PhilA]
plh: slide 7
01:28:29 [PhilA]
plh: slide 8 which refers to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references
01:28:55 [chaals]
s/Pear River/Pearl River/
01:28:58 [PhilA]
Ralph_: We have a moment for questions
01:29:06 [marie]
DavidSinger
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01:29:48 [PhilA]
dsinger: Can you find the thing referred to? It may move (not everyone keeps URLs persistently).
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01:30:30 [PhilA]
Ralph_: We've not addressed that, no, but we have addressed the other point you raised about whether the doc is available generally (not behind a paywall/membership0
01:30:52 [PhilA]
Jeff: Thanks the Shenzhen officials for coming
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scribe: MichaelC
01:31:15 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
01:31:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html PhilA
01:31:27 [MichaelC]
topic: The Document License Experiment in the HTML Working Group
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01:32:45 [MichaelC]
tbl: these are exciting bits of technology this morning aren't they? :)
01:33:00 [MichaelC]
but they're important topics
01:33:18 [MichaelC]
if you get document license wrong, other things go wrong
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01:33:46 [MichaelC]
regarding question of reference going 404, could request permission that we host a copy
01:34:05 [MichaelC]
in a report recently 45% of US supreme court decision references are 404
01:34:10 [Zakim]
+Ralph
01:34:20 [MichaelC]
on to licensing
01:34:37 [Zakim]
-Ralph
01:34:39 [MichaelC]
there has been a lot of discussion about what license we should have on our spec
01:34:43 [MichaelC]
not resolved
01:35:10 [MichaelC]
some don't want specs to fork because it impairs implentation
01:35:17 [MichaelC]
others want to be able to use anything anywhere
01:35:26 [MichaelC]
for HTML we have gone ahead with an alternate license
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01:35:38 [MichaelC]
cc-by Creative Commons With Attribution
01:35:51 [MichaelC]
anybody can republish but must acknowledge source
01:36:08 [Zakim]
-fjh
01:36:17 [MichaelC]
since the time we made the decision to adopt that license for that spec
01:36:31 [amy]
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/
01:36:34 [MichaelC]
desire to be able to release under GPL has been expressed
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01:37:01 [MichaelC]
viral license, anybody can republish indefinitely
01:37:22 [PhilA]
I see your 2.0 amy and raise you to 3.0 :-) http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
01:37:25 [MichaelC]
under cc-by someone can republish but they must credit
01:37:27 [amy]
tx!
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01:37:45 [MichaelC]
it's an open question of whether someone republishing in accordance with cc-by has right to put their copy under GPL
01:37:59 [MichaelC]
(legal interpretation question)
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01:38:12 [MichaelC]
the question of whether Consortium should go this direction is open
01:38:21 [MichaelC]
my personal view is copyright is not the tool to use to avoid forking
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01:38:28 [MichaelC]
even though in fact we want to avoid forks
01:38:41 [MichaelC]
the right to fork keeps us honest
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01:38:55 [MichaelC]
we have to act in such a manner that people don't want to
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01:39:35 [MichaelC]
my view on the legalities is that if GPL can't be used on a cc-by document, then there is a bug in the license
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01:39:55 [wseltzer]
s/license/GPL license/
01:40:05 [MichaelC]
there should be clear lines between the licenses
01:40:30 [MichaelC]
I would have thought that GPL and cc-by would be in sub relationship to each other
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01:41:04 [MichaelC]
Yesterday's AC meeting was a cozy space, now we're in a big room
01:41:23 [MichaelC]
please pretend it's a cozy space for the upcoming discussion
01:41:40 [MichaelC]
<invites discussion>
01:41:45 [ArtB]
Is there something more to this discussion than Taste Great vs. Less Filling?
01:41:55 [MichaelC]
-- Manu Sporny
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01:42:09 [MichaelC]
ms: you must have considered public domain license at some point
01:42:30 [MichaelC]
you seem to have personal desire for public domain
01:42:39 [MichaelC]
why is it not considered more strongly?
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01:43:03 [MichaelC]
s/you seem to have/there seems to be/
01:43:22 [MichaelC]
tbl: I wasn't aware of a movement towards public domain desire
01:43:54 [ArtB]
It seems like the minute W3C put HTML5 on github, this whole discussion about copyright became moot
01:43:55 [MichaelC]
perhaps have not wanted to support ability to remove attribute and provenance
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01:43:58 [ArtB]
What am I missing?
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01:44:18 [MichaelC]
it's a question of winning over hearts and minds
01:44:38 [MichaelC]
would like information about valid use cases in which preserving attribution is an impediment
01:44:43 [dsinger]
cc-by is 'close to public domain'. wanting attribution doesn't seem unreasonable
01:44:56 [MichaelC]
-- David Baron
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01:45:05 [ArtB]
copyright isn't going to stop spec bifurcation
01:45:12 [ArtB]
it's here, we have to deal with it
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01:45:15 [MichaelC]
db: cc-by isn't just cc-0 plus attribution
01:45:15 [dsinger]
also, cc-by satisfies the use-cases and requirements we collected. we can't move the goalposts
01:45:16 [MichaelC]
there are additional requirements
01:45:19 [ArtB]
I don't see how copyright is going to help
01:45:25 [ArtB]
(IANAL ;-))
01:45:37 [MichaelC]
think the incompatbility with GPL comes from those additional requirements
01:45:40 [MichaelC]
tbl: expect so
01:45:51 [MichaelC]
s/expect/imagine/
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01:46:02 [MichaelC]
-- Larry Masinter
01:46:27 [MichaelC]
lm: though the concern came from organizations that didn't want IP released via an open license in W3C spec
01:46:40 [MichaelC]
so the license binds participants together
01:47:03 [MichaelC]
-- Doug Schepers
01:47:22 [MichaelC]
ds: I share the personal preference for cc-by
01:47:25 [MichaelC]
I agree with attribution
01:47:33 [ArtB]
putting something on github says "please feel free to fork me"
01:47:36 [MichaelC]
also think doc should be as available as possibl
01:47:42 [MichaelC]
s/possibl/possible/
01:47:50 [MichaelC]
I work with @@ on documentation
01:47:56 [MichaelC]
have trouble pulling in images
01:48:02 [Zakim]
+Ralph
01:48:18 [MichaelC]
with cc-by could pull spec content into documentation more freely
01:48:19 [chaals1]
[ArtB, the one place copyright helps is when some large industrial consortium takes the spec and produces a b0rken fork that they inflict on us. Since they think in terms of copyright and lawyers, they are in fact vulnerable to being told off through a notice regarding copyright. Against which, it can be annoying in other places...]
01:48:21 [Eliot]
s/@@/webplatform.org
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01:48:30 [MichaelC]
tbl: so if there is example text under W3C license, can't be pulled in?
01:48:31 [Zakim]
-Ralph
01:48:37 [MichaelC]
s/@@/Web Platform Docs/
01:49:06 [MichaelC]
ds: because web platform docs is cc-by, can't pull in the content under the more restrictive license
01:49:09 [MichaelC]
-- Ian Jacobs
01:49:26 [MichaelC]
ij: there are a lot of people here, maybe we could poll the room
01:49:57 [MichaelC]
tbl: hmm, we didn't set up for a valid poll, but could try
01:50:02 [MichaelC]
not binding, it's a bit random
01:50:10 [MikeSmith]
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01:50:44 [MichaelC]
let's consider three options: W3C license at is now, cc-by, cc-0
01:51:37 [MichaelC]
W3C license - almost indistinguishable support
01:51:45 [MichaelC]
cc-by - modest support
01:51:59 [MichaelC]
cc-0 - roughly the same, maybe slightly more
01:52:06 [MichaelC]
<scribe interpretation of hum poll>
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01:52:44 [MichaelC]
don't care - also modest
01:52:47 [MichaelC]
-- Glen Cox
01:53:03 [marie]
Glen Adams
01:53:32 [chaals]
[scribe seemed to hear something different to what was over here… conclusion, we need to learn to use the hum better, or should stick to the clap which is more usual here]
01:53:34 [MichaelC]
gc: why can't content be referenced via link, why does it have to be copied in?
01:53:39 [MichaelC]
-- David Singer
01:53:57 [MichaelC]
ds: you could ask W3C for permission to repurpose, answer probably would be yes
01:54:08 [MichaelC]
-- Doug Schepers
01:54:25 [MichaelC]
ds: there is just enough confusion here that mistakes could be made
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01:55:03 [MichaelC]
-- David Singer
01:55:15 [MichaelC]
ds: could use reasonable portions of spec, seems clear
01:55:18 [MichaelC]
-- Doug Schepers
01:55:25 [MichaelC]
ds: communicating all that difficult
01:55:38 [MichaelC]
anyway, want to solve the general use case, not just mine
01:55:59 [MichaelC]
if we want specs to be used as widely and interoperably as possible, let's open up the license
01:56:03 [MichaelC]
-- Manu Sporny
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01:56:22 [MichaelC]
ms: there are instances where attribution requirements don't make sense
01:56:31 [MichaelC]
e.g., primer documents that incorporate content
01:56:42 [MichaelC]
can we give WGs ability to decide which license they want to use?
01:56:53 [MichaelC]
know some groups would have rather published as public domain
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01:57:11 [MichaelC]
fear of forking, using spec to competitive advantage doesn't seem like strong argument
01:57:22 [MichaelC]
people know W3C is authoritative source
01:57:31 [MichaelC]
seems the fears are driven by legal departments
01:57:47 [MichaelC]
so could allow groups to choose between cc-by and cc-0
01:58:12 [MichaelC]
tbl: good point, though if groups have that option, they'll spend time debating license rather than developing tech
01:58:48 [MichaelC]
we have granted license for republishing before but didn't allow changes, we retain change control
01:58:56 [MichaelC]
otherwise you have a destructive fork
01:59:04 [MichaelC]
two versions of web
01:59:30 [MichaelC]
-- Mike Champion
01:59:45 [masinter]
who's interested in a forking policy?
01:59:53 [MichaelC]
mc: fundamental value of W3C is consensus and patent commitment
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02:00:35 [MichaelC]
we resist change because concern that forks without attribution could result in specs that appear to be e.g., HTML but lack the patent commitments
02:00:54 [jmr]
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02:00:56 [MichaelC]
yes lawyers are speaking to that but don't think it's just a lawyer POV
02:01:17 [MichaelC]
let's continue experiment with cc-by and come back in a year or two to revisit
02:01:52 [dsinger]
by the way, it's clear that the RF grants from members extend to the W3C spec., not to possible uses of the same text/ideas elsewhere. "You may not have a license" is an appropriate warning...
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02:02:42 [koalie]
scribe: Ivan
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scribenick: ivan
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scribenick: ivan
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02:06:25 [Zakim]
+Chris_Wilson
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-Chris_Wilson
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+Ralph
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-Ralph
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+Chris_Wilson
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-Chris_Wilson
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+Chris_Wilson
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-Chris_Wilson
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+CWilso
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02:16:06 [fjh]
zakim, code/
02:16:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code/', fjh
02:16:10 [fjh]
zakim, code/
02:16:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code/', fjh
02:16:13 [fjh]
zakim, code?
02:16:13 [Zakim]
the conference code is 93287 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh
02:16:25 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
02:16:33 [fjh]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
02:16:33 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
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02:22:55 [Zakim]
-Wuzhou_middle
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02:33:00 [cwilso]
zakim, who is here?
02:33:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wayne_Carr (muted), CWilso (muted), fjh (muted)
02:33:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see gcapiel, csjung___, chaals, Ralph_, a12u, jcverdie_, csjung__, Takahiro, naomi, Jirka2, MarcFisher, emalasky1, MoZ, ArtB, emalasky, ivan, Noriya, Nikos, jmr, myakura,
02:33:01 [Zakim]
... MichaelC, marie, wonsuk, hiroki, ywu, aboyet, veronica, kinjim
02:33:32 [cwilso]
...and about 95 other people. :)
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+Wuzhou_middle
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02:35:00 [ivan]
Topic: AB's W3C Process document review
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+Ralph
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-Ralph
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02:35:55 [Ryladog]
test
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02:38:31 [cwilso]
Anyone minuting?
02:38:32 [ivan]
SteveZ: I am currently chair of the process document review group, Charles is the editor of that new document
02:38:35 [cwilso]
ah
02:39:10 [ArtB]
Is this the doc https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/AB/raw-file/default/tr.html ?
02:39:11 [ivan]
… what I want to do is to give a quick overview on why we are here, what we are proposing to change
02:39:19 [ivan]
… it is currently in last call review
02:39:39 [ivan]
What we started up with a process 'waterfall development'
02:39:51 [_nikos_office]
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02:40:11 [ivan]
… starting from one step, refined, then I have functional completeness, then sent to last call, then to implementation experience, finall a rec
02:40:16 [fjh]
/me is there a link tot he slides?
02:40:20 [ivan]
… what we discovered is that this is not what is happening
02:40:35 [ivan]
… in software development, or standards' space either
02:40:43 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/sz-tpac2013/ Steve's slides
02:40:53 [ivan]
… more accurately what is happening is that the the fpwd may not have all the pieces,
02:41:05 [ivan]
… some of the pieces may be relatively developed (eg, coming from a CG)
02:41:09 [ddahl]
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02:41:13 [ivan]
… i have a series of drafts
02:41:26 [ivan]
… some of the pieces may be implemented relatively early
02:41:37 [ivan]
… ie, getting to CR i may have a number of implementations and tests
02:41:55 [ivan]
… instead of having a sequence of steps I may have parallel pieces
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02:42:05 [ivan]
… some of them may be stable enough for reference
02:42:18 [ivan]
… what we try to work for is doing the specs in a more agile way
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02:42:28 [ivan]
… doing them in smaller chunks (modules, fragments)
02:42:47 [ivan]
… with implementations and (experimental) developments along
02:42:53 [Youngsun_Ryu]
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02:43:03 [ivan]
… finally developing tests in conjunction with teh spec development
02:43:13 [ivan]
… this is already being done without a process change
02:43:19 [masatakayakura]
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02:43:31 [ivan]
We began to look at this issue in '11, asking people about their problems
02:43:42 [AWK]
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02:43:54 [ivan]
… the AB with the people from those sessions, sent a compiled list to the chairs
02:44:07 [ivan]
… 'which of these are important to chagne'?
02:44:13 [darobin]
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02:44:16 [dom]
s/chagne/change/
02:44:29 [ivan]
… Of the 12 priority items, 6 are apply to chapter 7 draft we are talking about here
02:44:38 [AnnB]
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02:44:39 [ivan]
1. integrating implementation in the process
02:44:48 [ivan]
2. doest no math modern developments
02:44:55 [ivan]
3. desire for modern references
02:45:11 [ivan]
4. last call may not be as useful as intended
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02:45:24 [ivan]
5. interaction between lc and cr is confusing for outsider
02:45:33 [ivan]
6. lack of test case and interop development
02:45:51 [ivan]
Last year at tpac we reported, and then we were looking at these issues
02:46:00 [JonathanJ]
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02:46:01 [ivan]
… we realized that we can make a number of process change
02:46:07 [ivan]
… eg, we could get rid of activities
02:46:17 [ivan]
… eg, we could break the document
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02:46:32 [ivan]
… but applying our own rules on agile dev., and focus on one piece
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02:46:48 [ivan]
… most of the things are concerned with the interaction of lc, cr, and pr
02:46:58 [ivan]
… we want to get rid of unnecessary steps
02:47:06 [ivan]
… that led us cutting down our work
02:47:15 [ivan]
… in future we will make the other changes, later
02:47:23 [ivan]
What are the changes?
02:47:26 [ywu]
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02:47:31 [ivan]
… No change of the pattern policy
02:47:45 [wuwei_]
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02:47:52 [ivan]
… we changed the the role of last call, separating the pr issue, and is now attached to cr
02:48:02 [jeff]
s/pattern/patent/
02:48:05 [ivan]
s/pr/pr exclusion/
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02:48:23 [ivan]
… the other was to get the responsibility of the wg to get large review
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02:48:49 [ivan]
… we simplified the diagrams to fewer maturity levels: wd-s, cr, and rec
02:49:05 [ivan]
… doing parallelization we overlap the ac review with the cr
02:49:23 [ivan]
Another piece was to clarify and simplify the document
02:49:40 [ivan]
… removing the non-normative advice, and move that to a separate document maintained by the team
02:49:51 [ivan]
… we made it clear what the normative pieces are
02:50:30 [ivan]
(Steve shows extracts of the document)
02:50:42 [ivan]
… we try to list what _must_ happen
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02:50:58 [ivan]
… in the same process we identify _may_ and _should_ requirements
02:51:30 [ivan]
We also try to identify what the director considers adequate review and implementation experience
02:51:35 [ivan]
… guidelines and not rules
02:51:47 [ivan]
Finally, we require public statemetns on the director's decision
02:51:57 [ivan]
We already identified issues
02:52:18 [ivan]
I refer to last call candidate rec for ipr text issues
02:52:27 [ivan]
… so we may call that cr
02:52:38 [ivan]
… and add an explanatory text for ipr
02:52:48 [kodonog]
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02:52:55 [ivan]
Early in the process things can get fully defined before the doc as a whole
02:53:02 [ivan]
… we encourage early wide review
02:53:22 [ivan]
… documents identify sections in the document that are available for review early in the process
02:53:41 [ivan]
… issue is to signal that the document as a whole is complete
02:54:05 [ivan]
There is also an issue what should happen in the status section; today it is more boilerplate and that could be removed
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02:54:29 [ivan]
The wide review piece of lc does not require director's call
02:54:45 [ivan]
It was suggested to rename 'rec' call 'standards'
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02:55:10 [ivan]
The LC open until nov 27, comments to public-w3-process@w3.org
02:55:14 [ivan]
… issues are public
02:55:26 [ivan]
irc is public #w3cprocess
02:55:33 [ivan]
… minutes also public
02:55:50 [ivan]
Target to have a final version for AC review in January
02:55:52 [ivan]
Questions?
02:56:03 [ivan]
(applause)
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02:56:15 [dsinger]
is there a reason this isn't on My Questionnaires?
02:56:26 [ivan]
Judy: I think there are good changes; one particular issue
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02:56:36 [dom]
dsinger, I think this is a call for comments, not the formal review yet (?)
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02:56:55 [jeff]
[Fantasai: Applause! Awesome!]
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02:57:03 [ivan]
… there are a few groups that have a horizontal functions, like WAI PF, they have to schedule very carefully to get the expertise available
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02:57:16 [ivan]
… I noticed to have a heads-up for next steps
02:57:26 [dino]
Feedback to organisers -- I'm not sure this presentation is the best use of our collective time. I'm pretty sure most people are not paying attention, and it could have been discussed on email. (Also, even the presentation makes it clear this is for AC review). I'm not sure why it wasn't a BOF.
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02:57:30 [ivan]
… but cross review groups would need a heads-up for the heads-up
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02:57:48 [ivan]
… is there a possibility to provide more assurance that there would be a heads-up (not just recommended)
02:58:01 [ivan]
… and whether there should be a specific practice for all the groups to use
02:58:12 [ArtB]
Good comment Judy!
02:58:19 [jeff]
Dino: Thanks for the feedback. The theory (maybe wrong) is that developers are impacted by the W3C Process and we want to make sure they have awareness and we get their feedback.
02:58:26 [ArtB]
I've been wondering the same thing
02:58:43 [ArtB]
How many horizontal groups do we have now?
02:58:53 [ivan]
SteveZ: the category of 'other things' includes a provision to change how things are chartered, also with the provision to the horizontal groups, opening a liaison experience to have an identified person for a continuous information flow
02:59:01 [ArtB]
Security, Privacy, A11Y, TAG, I18N, Mobile, ...
02:59:28 [dino]
jeff, Oh, I agree that it is important and that WG members should give feedback. I just feel the collective time of 300+ people is extremely valuable. I might be in the minority.
02:59:35 [ivan]
.. the second one is: in some cases a major arch change late int he process is not the good place to do it, so each release should identify what needs review
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03:00:14 [ivan]
charles: one of the goals was to get out of the way of people doing the work
03:00:14 [ivan]
… you cannot get into cr unless you got the right review
03:00:20 [ivan]
… but we do not tell you how to do that
03:00:26 [jeff]
Dino: Fair enough. In fact that's why most of the "plenary" is breakouts. For a variety of reasons, we needed more "plenary" this year.
03:00:44 [ivan]
… having a process setting rules about scheduling did not seem to be helpful
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03:00:58 [ivan]
… you got to work with the dependencies, other groups, etc
03:01:26 [ArtB]
So, are we now going to need a process to manage the [review] process?
03:01:38 [ivan]
… if you get it right, and normal practice to coordinate with other groups is not talk to them, no nasty surprises, than it works
03:01:51 [dino]
jeff: the breakouts start at 2pm right? That's not "most". Anyway, I don't want to complain. I understand there are important topics that need to be broadcast to a collective audience.
03:02:16 [ivan]
judy: i would encourage regular mechanism
03:02:31 [ArtB]
+1 to Judy's proposal
03:02:32 [jeff]
Thanks, Mike.
03:03:07 [ivan]
paul cotton: the normal wg transition to the old lc the group did of its own, and cr was with the dirctor, when formal objections are dealt with
03:03:31 [ivan]
charles: any time you go to the director you get the formal objections are handled, currently lccr
03:03:55 [ArtB]
Does the AB have some data that shows that if a group had followed this proposal it would have made a substantive difference?
03:03:58 [ivan]
SteveZ: that is when the _have_ to take place, although you can discuss witht he director earlier
03:04:20 [ivan]
paul cotton: postponing formal objection is actually a good things, people can calm down...
03:04:42 [ivan]
phila: you mentioned the 'going back', where do you go back to
03:04:44 [fantasai]
ArtB, csswg would not delay publishing updates to CRs in order to batch them if it were possible to edit a CR without changing its status to WD
03:05:09 [ivan]
charles: the normal situation you go from CR to a new CR
03:05:25 [ArtB]
but if "editing a CR" mean adding any new features or norm refs, then a Patent exclusion must be done
03:05:41 [ivan]
… today the situation is to go back to a new lc, pattern exclusion, 3 weeks, etc, before they are allowed back to CR
03:06:00 [ivan]
… the public sees 'last call' and another 'last call', etc, and that is confusing
03:06:29 [ivan]
… we tried to eliminate that, pushing wg-s to get their documents reviewed right, and minimize the confusing symbols even when going back
03:06:34 [ivan]
SteveZ: thank you all
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03:06:54 [mchampion]
Speaking as an AB member who has been in these discussions: I'd just reiterate that the spirit of these changes is to tell WGs WHAT they need to do before asking to go to Recommendation, not so much HOW they need to do it. Maybe some "how" things need to be more explicit, but there will be a tendency to say "let's have WGs and WAI/I18N/etc figure out how to optimize their own interactions, not suggest that the process doc cover all contingincies
03:06:57 [veronica]
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03:07:10 [plh]
scribe: plh
03:07:11 [koalie]
scribe: Philippe
03:07:17 [koalie]
scribenick: plh
03:07:27 [koalie]
Topic: Discussion with the TAG
03:07:38 [aizu]
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03:08:06 [plh]
[Dan is trying to figure out the architecture of a VGA plug]
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03:08:35 [Ralph]
[to Dan's defense, this VGA connector is not quite standards-comnpliant]
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03:08:57 [plh]
Dan: the idea is to have a Q&A
03:09:01 [plh]
... so what is the TAG?
03:09:11 [gcapiel]
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03:09:12 [plh]
... it's a special WQG chartered by the W3C Process
03:09:24 [plh]
... to document and build consensus around the principles of Web Architecture
03:09:31 [plh]
... resolve arch issues
03:09:37 [chaals]
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03:09:49 [plh]
... we have Anne, Tim, Alex, Peter and Dan on stage
03:09:57 [Tomoyuki]
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03:10:07 [ArtB]
what about Sergey ;)
03:10:12 [plh]
... we're focusing on web of applications
03:10:22 [plh]
... we give reviews and feedback
03:10:36 [plh]
... for example the web audio, webrtc, web compoenents, web animations, web crypto
03:10:43 [plh]
... helping withliaisons, like IETF and TC39
03:10:49 [plh]
... JS, JSON
03:10:53 [plh]
... best practices guidelines
03:10:58 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ Technical Architecture Group home
03:11:02 [plh]
... EME
03:11:09 [Ryladog]
[Sergey Konstantinov is also part of the TAG]
03:11:19 [plh]
... securityof the Web
03:11:22 [kiyoshi_]
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03:11:25 [plh]
... looking into web dev outreach
03:11:40 [plh]
... mostly oriented around Q&A and feedback
03:11:51 [plh]
... next f2f is on London in January and in SF in early April
03:11:57 [plh]
... looking at doing outreach there
03:12:02 [wwu]
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03:12:11 [plh]
... lastly, we have 2 seats up for election
03:12:22 [plh]
... representatives on the TAG are elected
03:12:43 [Alan]
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03:12:45 [hober]
/join#3tpac-chat
03:12:47 [plh]
...if you have questions about the election, come to the mic or us
03:12:52 [hober]
h/awkward
03:13:29 [Tomoyuki1]
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03:13:30 [plh]
... we'd like your feedback or/and questions
03:13:39 [Noriya]
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03:13:42 [plh]
... we'd like to hear from all, especially WG participants
03:13:55 [ArtB]
[we want feedback from _real_ people ;-)]
03:13:56 [plh]
... what should we working on?
03:14:06 [Judy]
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03:14:09 [plh]
Dom: the work you guys started is really good
03:14:18 [plh]
... re API design, that's a constant question
03:14:23 [Dong-Young_Lee]
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03:14:25 [plh]
... Robin started something 2 years ago
03:14:31 [plh]
... would be good to take it on and continue it
03:14:35 [koalie]
s/something/an API cook book/
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03:14:47 [plh]
Alex: I support that for a long term goal
03:15:02 [plh]
... but it seems more productive to work hand-in-hand with you on specific issues
03:15:03 [stephane]
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03:15:17 [plh]
... how it interoperates with the rest of the platform...
03:15:22 [plh]
... trying to make your docuemnt better
03:15:25 [timbl]
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03:15:26 [plh]
... we'll continue the reviews
03:15:29 [kazho]
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03:15:37 [plh]
... and extract commonality afterwards
03:15:47 [plh]
... so we support the goal of guidelines
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03:15:51 [plh]
... but trying to gather experience
03:16:17 [plh]
Dom: agree with the approach
03:16:29 [plh]
... but there are small things like how to write variables, etc.
03:16:34 [plh]
... taking time from WGs
03:16:50 [plh]
Alex: this tends to uncover large issues however
03:16:57 [plh]
Dom: How do we deal with permissions and managing access to APIs?
03:16:59 [chaals]
[+1 to Dom. Getting this stuff written down should be a key goal]
03:17:10 [plh]
Alex: don't expect magic from us, but we're happy to help
03:17:19 [plh]
... ping us and we'll schedule time
03:17:24 [plh]
... we're a consulting group at this point
03:17:32 [plh]
Dom: I'll bring this feedback back
03:17:40 [gcapiel1]
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03:17:53 [plh]
... increasing the visibility of the work would be nice
03:18:02 [plh]
Alex: we have limited bandwidth
03:18:13 [plh]
... it does require study for us to come in
03:18:13 [virginie]
+1 to dom request
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03:18:34 [plh]
... would be great and as we continue to show success of improving specs, that profile will be raised through success
03:18:49 [plh]
Dom: before the groups can invite you, they need to know that they have this ability
03:19:16 [plh]
Manu: when I started to work at W3C, the standard was to avoid the TAG
03:19:32 [plh]
... was meant that the TAG wasn't affecting the work
03:19:52 [plh]
... I understand that the TAG wants the architecture to work, and I understand the recent changes in the TAG
03:20:09 [plh]
... but when I hear things like limited bandwidth, that puts me back into the previous mindset
03:20:37 [plh]
... if you have limited bandwidth, peharps there is an opportunity to create a spec reviewer task force
03:20:42 [plh]
... or increasing the number of folks on the TAG
03:20:54 [plh]
... the other part is that may people know that you exist
03:21:16 [plh]
... so maybe scheduling time whenever you see a new draft, trying to inject yourselves could help
03:21:44 [plh]
Alex: we can't review all drafts in the world, but we'd like toi engage with groups as early as possible
03:21:44 [Jeanne]
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03:21:54 [plh]
... so avoid pain as much as possible
03:21:54 [Youngsun_Ryu_]
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03:22:01 [plh]
... but I understand the critic
03:22:15 [plh]
... we'll continue to build a library of successful reviews
03:22:21 [plh]
... to help the visibility of the TAG
03:22:30 [plh]
... we'd like to collaborate with you early
03:22:37 [plh]
... and don't think that we can't help
03:23:00 [plh]
Dan: +1. the TAG was helpful previously but I'd like to see that be the norm
03:23:09 [plh]
... that working with the TAG is a positive experience
03:23:31 [plh]
Junglee: re collaboration between w3c and whatwg
03:23:35 [plh]
... I work on XHR
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03:23:57 [plh]
...recently Anne was defining of fetching resources in the whatwg
03:24:14 [plh]
... how can I handle references to that particular spec in the next version of w3c xhr?
03:24:18 [plh]
... smae pb in the html wg
03:24:24 [Ruinan_]
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03:24:24 [plh]
... can the TAG address this issue?
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03:24:50 [plh]
Anne: we didn't discuss this in the context of the TAG. it's an issue related to licensing and process
03:24:55 [plh]
... the best people to ask is the AB or the AC
03:25:06 [plh]
Junglee: how about referecing the fetch spec?
03:25:16 [plh]
Anne: you should just reference imho. no big deal to me.
03:25:49 [plh]
Natasha: the event is london was awesome
03:25:50 [Ian]
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03:25:51 [plh]
... please do more of it
03:26:23 [plh]
... maybe incorporate the TAG into chairs training as well?
03:26:28 [plh]
... maybe a wiki page
03:26:40 [plh]
... so the chairs can be the voice of the TAG and have the discussion when there is a need to
03:26:44 [plh]
Alex: seems good
03:26:53 [plh]
Dan: so it's all clear?
03:27:02 [plh]
Tim: yes, we could have done the chairs breakfast
03:27:10 [ArtB]
what?
03:27:16 [plh]
... the chairs training is an important idea
03:27:27 [plh]
... the very first chairs meeting was fantastic
03:27:40 [richt]
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03:27:41 [plh]
...difficult to get everybody together
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03:27:54 [plh]
Charles: the TAG as a technical group is elected
03:27:58 [plh]
... that seems weird
03:28:17 [plh]
... how does it really work, ie limited in size and by election?
03:28:23 [plh]
... do we have the right people?
03:28:26 [nkic__]
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03:28:27 [plh]
... does the limitation help?
03:28:40 [plh]
Tim: ask the judges that
03:28:58 [plh]
... to the extend that folks are elected and could be rather random, I get along with everybody
03:29:09 [plh]
... I forward to see who is going to be
03:29:12 [dom]
s/extend/extent/
03:29:19 [plh]
... but at the moment, they seem reasonnable people
03:29:24 [plh]
... it's good to have continuity
03:29:25 [shan_]
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03:29:27 [plh]
... as welll as changes
03:29:29 [plh]
... variety
03:29:35 [plh]
... and overlap
03:29:49 [plh]
Dan: the last tag election when a number of new memeber came in
03:29:54 [plh]
... and alot of discussion in the AC
03:30:00 [plh]
... and lot of effort
03:30:10 [plh]
... to promote the idea a change of expertize
03:30:17 [plh]
... that worked, even if it was political
03:30:31 [plh]
... to me, that's democracy in action and was quite effective
03:30:48 [plh]
Alex: it strikes me that it's about priority setting
03:31:04 [plh]
... we could spend time dealing with issues that don't impact people
03:31:25 [plh]
... we'd like to hear your priorities for sure
03:31:38 [plh]
MikeChampion: TAG history question
03:31:55 [plh]
... constrasting TAG and the IAB
03:32:06 [MarcFisher]
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03:32:08 [myakura]
s/Junglee/Jungkee/
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03:32:21 [plh]
... was told that IAB has less judgmental process
03:32:22 [Alan]
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03:32:38 [plh]
... more careful in balancing point of view and expertise
03:32:45 [dom]
[I think Michael is alluding to the IESG http://www.ietf.org/iesg/]
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03:32:50 [plh]
... did you think of using that kind of model for the election?
03:33:00 [ArtB]
Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler and more inclusive to simply morph the TAG into an Interest Group?
03:33:02 [plh]
Tim: different structure
03:33:10 [plh]
... IESG have the area directors
03:33:23 [plh]
... IETF doesn't have domain leads because it's all volunteers
03:33:28 [ArtB]
Especially since it now mostly a Review + Education and Outreach group?
03:33:29 [Michael_Kang]
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03:34:05 [plh]
... [...] the election is good to bring people fresh
03:34:15 [plh]
... this time we had people blogging on what the TAG should do
03:34:18 [dom]
[there is also the Internet Architecture Board (IAB) http://www.iab.org/ ]
03:34:24 [plh]
... was pretty useful process and valuable one
03:34:43 [plh]
... doesn't happen when you have a community process
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03:35:02 [plh]
... so don't think that the TAG corresponds to anything in the IETF
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03:35:24 [plh]
Ann: one bit of history, the AB started the TAG
03:35:39 [plh]
... the technical question used to come to the AB which wasn't the appropriate venue
03:35:46 [plh]
... thus we created the TAG
03:36:00 [plh]
... we purposely made it partially elected and nominated
03:36:07 [plh]
... to balance the technical expertise and so on
03:36:20 [plh]
Charles: one kind of things is struggling with bandwidth
03:36:25 [plh]
... in specific area
03:36:42 [plh]
Dan: security expertize is lacking in the TAG
03:37:08 [plh]
Tim: it's good to have javascript expertise
03:37:50 [plh]
Tim: was unfair to talk about web arch without it being written down
03:37:55 [plh]
... so the TAG did that
03:38:01 [plh]
... while being reactive
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03:38:16 [plh]
... the doc went down deep to answer questions
03:38:25 [plh]
... while being light on some aspects
03:38:34 [plh]
Alex: we're light on media graphic expertise
03:38:47 [plh]
... interaction between codecs and network layers
03:38:48 [plh]
... SSL
03:38:55 [plh]
... that's a new thing for the web platform
03:39:03 [plh]
... we're leaning on the expertise of others
03:39:10 [plh]
Dan: and we need people whi can write specs :)
03:39:14 [plh]
Jeff: thank you
03:39:56 [amy]
scribe: amy
03:39:58 [koalie]
topic: Open Mic session
03:40:02 [koalie]
scribenick: amy
03:40:26 [bgidon]
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03:40:28 [amy]
Jeff: we've been asked for open mic. this is an informal time for questions, web, W3c, universe
03:41:03 [amy]
… generally Ann helps facilities for those who don't have english as first language. you can set private channel w/ Ann, grab her or talk to her.
03:41:11 [koalie]
s/ties/tate/
03:41:15 [amy]
… for those who would like to raise issues but might need help we nominate Ann
03:41:47 [Eliot_]
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03:41:55 [Ian]
-> http://www.w3.org/wiki/IRC
03:41:55 [dbaron]
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03:41:57 [amy]
Ann: i'd suggest that anyone who does not know how to use IRC, or go to w3.org/wiki/irc for basic instructions. much of what gets discussed hear is visible there
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s/irc/IRC/
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03:42:57 [amy]
Jeff: as people slowly come to mic. closest to me we have Ralph, COO; PLH, Interaction; TBL: director, Ian Jacobs, Comm Philip Hoscka, Judy Brewer, Wendy Seltzer, legal; Doug Schepers Developers
03:43:30 [amy]
Cameron McC: for a while now the @@ group and CSS have wanted to publish docs w/ styling. when can we do this
03:43:49 [koalie]
s/@@/SVG Working/
03:43:51 [amy]
Ian: please come to site redesign session today. we'll show you examples. 50 pixel style ideas. wireframes don't extend to specs
03:44:09 [amy]
.. I do have style drafts, if your'e interested in TR. if you're interested in sponsoring pleas talk to me
03:44:11 [a1zu]
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03:44:18 [amy]
Cameraon: quickly, what's the time?
03:44:26 [kotakagi]
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03:44:30 [amy]
Ian: that depends on answer for sponsorship (joke). goal is 2014
03:44:53 [amy]
@@: we had discussions of internet of things. economy of startups, kickstarter
03:45:01 [koalie]
s/@@:/ManuSporny:/
03:45:32 [amy]
.. a lot of these startups are using web as core part of business. they're kickstarting a process. but if we look t bringing them here, to help w/ standardization, it's a bit confusing, at least to me, what the selling point is
03:45:48 [amy]
.. how do we say pay 8K get something in a few years.
03:46:07 [amy]
… how do we get them involved, membership early in process, and then anything else management has been thinking about
03:46:08 [mounir_]
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03:46:12 [amy]
jeff: great question. several answers
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03:46:37 [amy]
Tim: I'd like to point out we're up here, you're sitting there. I'd like to see answers as well. it's an asymmetric thing
03:47:18 [amy]
jeff: great question. i think you have to break it down by use cases. first, a lot of startups are doing stuff that's not ready for rec track. we created Community group track to get the visibility in w3c /wout overhead
03:47:42 [amy]
.. participation is free. no barriers. another answer is 8K we made another class called start up class. it's 2k.
03:47:46 [AllanJ]
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03:47:58 [amy]
… if you want to, if it's important to busnsess, not just building product but setting standard.
03:48:06 [amy]
@@: is that every 2 years?
03:48:08 [Yudong]
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03:48:13 [amy]
Jeff; 2k per year for 2 years
03:48:15 [ivan]
s/@@/Manu/
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03:48:37 [amy]
@@: starts ups say not going to be able to continue after 2 years, not see work thourhg
03:48:54 [Dong-Young_Lee]
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03:48:55 [amy]
… they see the revenue through, if they want to really start something w3c
03:48:57 [koalie]
s/@@:/Manu:/
03:48:58 [ivan]
s/@@/Manu/
03:49:06 [amy]
… build something in standardization, only halfway through process
03:49:22 [timbl]
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03:49:37 [myakura]
s/ManuSporny/Manu/
03:49:43 [amy]
Jeff; again, it's a use case issue. it's not usual that startup in angel phrase are ready to be members. if they think that year three or four they're ready then they join in year 3, year 5 if they're optimistic it's not unreasonable.
03:49:57 [koalie]
s/Jeff;/Jeff:/
03:50:06 [amy]
…startups aren't one size fits all. we have several options
03:50:14 [amy]
Tim: do you think we should have modified version of startups
03:50:14 [amy]
?
03:50:55 [amy]
Robin: i wanted to address Manu's issue, having worked in startup, cost isn't membership it's traveling for mtgs. one thing we can do is keep reducing overhead of working on standards
03:51:24 [amy]
…. we're thinking of how to keep pushing at process level and culturally. bubble down to chairs, remove overhead, push burden away from community
03:51:29 [ac]
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03:51:49 [amy]
… process we have is there for a reason. the world has changed a lot. a lot use git hub, put stuff up, we need to be able to match that
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03:51:55 [amy]
jeff: I think we all agree
03:52:29 [amy]
Charles: I nearly agree. there's a lot of stuff on git hub that's junk. they end up disappearing because they're not good. we can't lose sight of idea we need to do good things, not just things fast.
03:52:36 [amy]
… but reducing overhead is a good idea
03:52:49 [Ian]
[Yosuke Funahashi]
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03:53:07 [amy]
Yosuke Funahashi: co chair web and tv. i have a question re: testing. we had a four year plan
03:53:16 [amy]
… we started this last year. plans to publish results?
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03:53:40 [Ian]
[There will be a testing presentation at the AC meeting tomorrow morning]
03:53:44 [amy]
PLH: @@ do results tomorrow at AC. I think there's no reason to make it hidden. I'm sure he'll finish his slides
03:53:57 [Ian]
s/@@/Tobie Langel will
03:54:06 [amy]
… we've gotten good results on testing. @@ Abraham doing beautiful work
03:54:35 [amy]
.. there's still plenty of work to be done. I've been pleased w/ the work tobie has done. really looking forward to contiuing that in next eyear
03:54:49 [amy]
jeff: shall I conclude everything else in consortium is perfect?
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03:55:13 [amy]
… for those who didn't hear, fantasi said things going in right direction
03:55:43 [amy]
Alex: several years ago i talked about individual membership. I mollified at the time by idea that individuals could participate in cg process
03:56:04 [amy]
… w/ CG now a few years old, ask how it's perceived and bring back indiv. memberhsip
03:56:41 [shan]
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03:56:46 [amy]
Ian: as far as how it's going, we heard good reports from membership at AC. more than 1,000 participating in CG, RF commitments in CG
03:57:08 [yohsumi]
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03:57:25 [koalie]
s/1,000/3250/
03:57:34 [amy]
…some push specs to rec track. interest in how to do that. CG visibility, ideas of how to join. systems improvements. based on what i'm hearing, there's support. we have more to go
03:58:01 [koalie]
[ There are currently 3374 people participating in community and business groups. ]
03:58:16 [amy]
Jeff; briefly, individual membership - what problem to solve? to have participation? if we think we need them to pay $? possibly not worth it
03:58:45 [amy]
Tim: I've always been interested in individual membership. people mail me, saying "I want to join because i think they're a good thing"
03:58:48 [koalie]
s/Jeff;/Jeff:/
03:59:14 [Alan]
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03:59:22 [amy]
.. but others say "I'm involved in X thing". so I think maybe we've found the overhead over actually running this wouldn't be paid for by incoming $
03:59:52 [amy]
… we've gotten better at taking credit cards at meetings. from the community people say i am a member even if they don't participate
03:59:58 [amy]
.. could also be read=only membership
04:00:33 [amy]
.. be a member to see what' going on, out of interest or support, separate level where you've got an account where you can be allowed to read-write and
04:00:44 [amy]
.. I'd be happy to revisit this
04:01:24 [amy]
Judy: in terms in community groups it's been interesting to see, exploration of different topics, at w3c it's allowed us to get new things. one of the hallmarks of w3c work is review
04:01:50 [plh]
s/@@ Abraham/James Graham/
04:01:51 [amy]
.. way tries to help groups w/ accessibility. PF groups look across groups to see how they're performing and we bring to those in field
04:02:49 [amy]
.. right now we try to provide to w3c as a whole we're not able to do for CG. they don't have opportunity to work w/ us. if you're in a CG and you have suggestions of how we could be better connected, let us know. talk to Janina or Michael C
04:03:06 [TatsuyaIgarashi]
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04:03:24 [amy]
.. first question had been about entrepreneurial groups, we see groups, doesn't matter small or large, some groups are small and dedicate people and then step up as they can
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04:03:39 [amy]
Jeff: thanks. we're running out of time. Ask for Alex clarification
04:04:05 [amy]
Alex: a few issues to be sorted out. one issue is the professional affiliation question. they'd like to be publicly affiliated w/ W3C
04:04:34 [amy]
.. question of utility and the responsibilities it implies. one issue is we don't have surfficient representation from UK
04:04:35 [Ian]
[Alex makes good point about end user representation in groups]
04:04:37 [amy]
s/UK/UI
04:05:02 [amy]
.. could elect people, we don't have strong sense of who represents users or who represents vendors
04:05:27 [amy]
.. we want both perspectives but we wear too many hats. if you have to have too many things in head, it's difficult
04:06:14 [amy]
Jeff; this is a larger question. I'd observe that individual membership is professional affiliation, many organizations, closest might be Internet society, they have to be thoughtful about what services they provide
04:06:43 [amy]
… they have to think about how they support chapters. it would have to be separate than what we do now - what resources, what we offer.
04:07:14 [amy]
@@: a regulatory policy question. payments. one thing coming up over and over again. what's legal to do in what country. what policy makers do we need to have involved
04:07:21 [wseltzer]
s/@@/Manu/
04:07:35 [amy]
… w3c started to work in mobile. but i don't' see legal and regulatory expertise. we need this
04:07:52 [Tomoyuki]
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04:08:20 [amy]
…. people like world bank, we need to have a much tighter dialogue. does no good to have a spec that can't be implemented. is there any suggestion that w3c has for this for web payments or web identity. where should these people be placed
04:09:07 [amy]
Jeff: great question. the current group we have that most resembles that. closest is TP. we've reached out to regulators, and involved in dialogue but I don't think we've created a repeatable process. we'll need to think about that more
04:09:17 [amy]
.. this needs to be on agency and I see rigo has come to mic
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04:10:09 [amy]
Rigo: the experience from the past, personal application of German minister of interior, how to link passport to commerce. I think getting the in a permanent basis would be difficult. but for workshops, we have pretty good channels into governments
04:10:27 [amy]
… we can get them into workshops, but binding them to WG would be difficutl
04:10:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html Ian
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04:11:17 [amy]
David Ross: ebay/pay pal. some expertise about regulatory for payments would be part of what we do. we have some expertise. we can bring more of this, we suggest get more payment groups to participate in w3c
04:11:30 [caroline]
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04:11:32 [amy]
… problems exist for all payment guys. we's like our competitors to participate as well
04:11:51 [amy]
Jeff: in spring we plan on having a web payments workshop, Paris March 24/25
04:12:02 [wseltzer]
s/David Ross/Daniel Austin/
04:12:19 [amy]
…we want to use it to reach out before getting them to join. if we can also use to bring in legislators that would be great
04:12:35 [amy]
…thanks to all for your questions and to w3m for addressing them
04:13:03 [amy]
… the afternoon as in several years will be community breakout sessions. we have several groups in play. Ian will explain what will happen in next few hours
04:13:35 [myakura]
s/pay pal/PayPal/
04:13:39 [amy]
Ian: we're doing a raffle and giving away pairs of penguins. put your business card in the box
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04:13:56 [amy]
… or your name on a piece of paper. we're not using data for anything except wedding penguins
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RRSagent, make minutes
04:14:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html koalie
04:14:21 [amy]
… between now and lunch we want you to surge to front of room and fight for your position for current, limited slots
04:14:28 [amy]
currently 25 proposed sessions
04:14:31 [koalie]
[setting up breakouts]
04:14:57 [amy]
… if we run beyond thirty, we can have brawls to set space. we don't have post it notes, we have blank pieces and pens
04:15:25 [amy]
.. you will write session name and your name. some like to tget their idea in, others wait and we set up a grid
04:15:30 [amy]
you'll seed th schedule and break out session
04:15:42 [cwilso]
explicit request that someone echo the schedule planning here in IRC
04:15:46 [amy]
in printed program and in tpac wiki there's guidance for good practice for running breakout session
04:16:15 [dom]
cwilso, the schedule will be reflected in the wiki
04:16:19 [amy]
eg: explain why there. it lets people decide to stay or not. what you expect to accomplish. use the wiki to take notes
04:16:38 [dom]
http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013#Session_Grid
04:16:43 [amy]
… i've added site redesign. make your own irc channel and let us know in the wiki.
04:17:00 [cwilso]
then just a notification when the schedule times are set in the wiki
04:17:02 [amy]
… suggest a scribe, remember not everyone speaks the same language. notes helpful. please end on time
04:17:04 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas suggestions for TPAC break outs
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04:17:29 [amy]
15 mins at end should give travel time. please try to start and end on time. we'll put up grid on line after it's stabilized. those will be public
04:17:37 [amy]
Judy: a lot of people can't get to the wiki
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04:18:00 [Zakim]
-fjh
04:18:06 [amy]
… some peoples' connections aren't working. some not online
04:18:20 [amy]
Ian: if there are network problems, apologize. I can project the grid
04:18:24 [amy]
s/grid/wiki
04:18:42 [amy]
… if you go to tpac home page there's a link to the wiki. there's a grid w/ titles etc
04:18:44 [wseltzer]
http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas
04:18:59 [wseltzer]
no, http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013
04:18:59 [amy]
… as we do this I invite people to put their sessions in there
04:19:06 [marie]
http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013#Session_Grid
04:19:26 [amy]
Ian: status report on wireless? thumbs down on wireless. ask meeting planners to resolve this
04:19:30 [amy]
… get session on board
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[scribing ends]
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04:22:44 [cwilso]
Public request that the Music/Web MIDI session make it early
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-Wayne_Carr
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04:33:56 [Zakim]
-Wuzhou_middle
04:34:12 [cwilso]
zakim, who is on the phone?
04:34:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see CWilso
04:34:16 [olivier]
cwilso, the midi session is likely to be the first one after lunch FWIW
04:34:16 [cwilso]
Yay!
04:34:23 [cwilso]
eeeeeeexcellent.
04:34:50 [cwilso]
that's in approximately 1.5 hours, correct?
04:35:00 [olivier]
aye
04:35:06 [cwilso]
thanks!
04:35:24 [Zakim]
-CWilso
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06:09:18 [richt]
If you're attending the 'Web of Things' breakout session please join the #webofthings channel
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06:10:50 [cwilso]
Web MIDI chat is on #webmidi
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06:13:51 [ArtB]
and Web Payments' channel is ...
06:13:57 [ArtB]
#webpayments
06:14:02 [ArtB]
who wooda' thunk
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06:14:22 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
06:14:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html ArtB
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06:14:59 [ArtB]
Meeting: Technical Plenary Day 2013
06:15:19 [ArtB]
Present+ Boat_Load_of_People
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06:15:29 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
06:15:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html ArtB
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07:01:14 [timbl]
RRSAgent, pointer?
07:01:14 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-irc#T07-01-14
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http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/session-offline
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http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/session-offline
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#tpac-chat
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[breakout reports in the main room]
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yo Mohamed
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09:57:36 [virginie]
FYI : security breakout session minutes are available here : http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-security-minutes.html
09:58:46 [glazou]
Alan, they're encrypted :-)
09:58:55 [glazou]
ask the NSA for the decrypted ones
09:59:06 [Alan]
LOL
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10:09:02 [koalie]
Some breakouts minutes already linked from the breakouts grid: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013#Session_Grid
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mnot: the next version of HTTP will run only over TLS
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10:12:18 [koalie]
not over TLC (true love and care)?
10:13:20 [ac]
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10:16:28 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
10:16:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html koalie
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10:18:11 [koalie]
scribenick: koalie
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10:28:52 [koalie]
RRSAgent, bye
10:28:52 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-irc
15:26:09 [koalie]
s/… /... /
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15:27:24 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
15:27:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html koalie
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15:28:30 [koalie]
s/Jeff;/Jeff:/G
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s/…/.../G
15:29:18 [koalie]
s/..../.../G
15:29:30 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
15:29:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html koalie
15:30:01 [koalie]
RRSAgent, bye
15:30:06 [koalie]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:30:09 [koalie]
RRSAgent, bye
15:30:09 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items