00:47:23 RRSAgent has joined #tpac 00:47:23 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-irc 00:47:32 gcapiel has joined #tpac 00:48:22 dom has joined #tpac 00:48:45 -Ralph 00:48:53 Ian has joined #tpac 00:49:41 shadi has joined #tpac 00:50:03 -Wayne_Carr 00:50:03 maria has joined #tpac 00:50:43 agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013 00:50:57 topic: Welcome 00:51:19 +Ralph 00:51:22 -Wuzhou_middle 00:51:23 +Wuzhou_middle 00:51:40 + +1.503.264.aacc - is perhaps Wayne_Carr 00:51:48 adrianba has joined #tpac 00:52:02 ivan has joined #tpac 00:52:08 brett has joined #tpac 00:52:19 +[IPcaller] 00:52:28 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 00:52:28 +fjh; got it 00:52:49 zakim, who is here? 00:52:49 On the phone I see Wuzhou_middle, Ralph (muted), Wayne_Carr (muted), fjh (muted) 00:52:51 On IRC I see brett, ivan, adrianba, maria, shadi, Ian, dom, gcapiel, RRSAgent, Ralph, PhilA, dsr, ArtB, WayneCarr, Ralph_, fjh, Zakim, amy, SteveF, fantasai, SimonSapin, olivier, 00:52:51 ... timeless, Josh_Soref, DV, Yves, rigo, ed, wseltzer, heycam|away, jgraham 00:52:53 Wu Yi Huan (Vice-Mayor of Shenzhen) arrives, introduced to TimBL 00:53:08 scribe: PhilA 00:53:14 scribeNick: PhilA 00:53:17 marie has joined #tpac 00:54:10 jeff: Welcomes everyone 00:54:17 denis has joined #tpac 00:54:36 ac has joined #tpac 00:54:36 ddavis has joined #tpac 00:54:37 MichaelC has joined #tpac 00:54:38 kurosawa has joined #tpac 00:54:41 dka has joined #tpac 00:54:42 shan has joined #tpac 00:54:46 nigel has joined #tpac 00:54:46 dezell has joined #tpac 00:54:49 Youngsun_Ryu has joined #tpac 00:54:49 paulc has joined #tpac 00:54:51 Tomoyuki has joined #tpac 00:54:53 dsinger has joined #tpac 00:54:56 kodonog has joined #tpac 00:55:00 bgidon has joined #tpac 00:55:00 dauwhe_ has joined #tpac 00:55:06 jcverdie has joined #tpac 00:55:16 gwm has joined #tpac 00:55:16 Thanks Tencent for their sponsorship, coordination and help in bringing TPAC to China 00:55:18 darobin has joined #tpac 00:55:19 aizu has joined #tpac 00:55:21 is Paul Cotton, HTML WG co-chair 00:55:23 emalasky has joined #tpac 00:55:27 jeremie has joined #tpac 00:55:28 hbwhzk_ has joined #tpac 00:55:35 MarkS has joined #tpac 00:55:39 Jeff: Also thanks city of Shenzhen and our Beihang Host in Beijing 00:55:42 SteveZ has joined #tpac 00:55:43 shoko has joined #tpac 00:55:54 Ruinan has joined #tpac 00:55:57 Jean-Gui has joined #tpac 00:56:04 masinter has joined #tpac 00:56:04 jeff: we'll have a brief welcome from each of those organisations 00:56:34 mete has joined #tpac 00:56:45 Tomoyuki1 has joined #tpac 00:56:52 shh__ has joined #tpac 00:57:02 kotakagi has joined #tpac 00:57:19 anssik has joined #tpac 00:57:39 Bert has joined #tpac 00:57:45 WuYiHuan: On behalf of the mayor and the city of Shenzhen, welcome 00:57:49 yosuke has joined #tpac 00:57:49 IanJ has joined #tpac 00:57:51 a1zu has joined #tpac 00:57:54 kunio has joined #tpac 00:57:58 emalasky1 has joined #tpac 00:58:04 kazho has joined #tpac 00:58:09 Jeanne has joined #tpac 00:58:23 AnnBassetti has joined #tpac 00:58:42 WuYiHuan: Shenzhen is on the south coast of China - a young city in a pleasant environment. We have won many awards, incl. city of design. Known for piano, golf and libraries 00:58:51 duga has joined #tpac 00:59:12 MoZ has joined #tpac 00:59:17 gcapiel1 has joined #tpac 00:59:20 WuYiHuan: As part of opening up, welcomes competition and more 00:59:26 adrianba_ has joined #tpac 00:59:34 AndyF has joined #tpac 00:59:35 jmr has joined #tpac 00:59:47 WuYiHuan: Over 3 decades, many start ups have begun and gone global, incl. Tencent 01:00:09 WayneCarr has joined #tpac 01:00:20 shepazu has joined #tpac 01:00:36 WuYiHuan: We are striving to achieve sustainable socio-economic growth. Shenzhen broke more than 200 bn USD in business 01:01:04 wuwei has joined #tpac 01:01:09 WuYiHuan: This is the first TPAC outside the US/EU - Shenzhen was a good choice 01:01:18 masinter has left #tpac 01:01:21 gerald has joined #tpac 01:01:33 drott has joined #tpac 01:01:53 Takahiro has joined #tpac 01:02:08 richt has joined #tpac 01:02:15 shoko_ has joined #tpac 01:02:23 virginie has joined #tpac 01:02:26 WuYiHuan: This meeting will, I believe, be a boost to the ICT industries in the Pear River Delta area. Will advance Shenzhen's work in standardisation globally 01:02:49 WuYiHuan: Finally, I'd like to wish the meeting a great success 01:02:53 (applause) 01:03:33 Chunming has joined #tpac 01:03:48 jeff: Prof. Jinpeng Huai is the person I've worked with closely over the years on opening the Beihang Host 01:03:50 Tomoyuki has joined #tpac 01:03:56 Topic: Prof. Jinpeng Huai 01:03:57 laurent has joined #tpac 01:04:03 Takahiro_ has joined #tpac 01:04:23 Tomoyuki1 has joined #tpac 01:04:31 aboyet has joined #tpac 01:04:39 AnnBassetti_ has joined #tpac 01:04:42 JinpengHuai: On behalf of Beihang host, welcome to TPAC. First time this event has been held in China 01:05:08 Mohammed has joined #tpac 01:05:09 Jeanne has joined #tpac 01:05:16 JinpengHuai: Shenzhen is a showpiece of China's opening up. Now among the most far developing cities in China. Home of China's most successful hi-tech companies 01:05:24 ChristianFuhrhop3 has joined #tpac 01:05:25 Loren has joined #tpac 01:06:02 JinpengHuai: On its way to becoming the biggest online market 01:06:39 JinpengHuai: This week, a 24 hour online shopping carnival - many billions of US dollars spent 01:07:00 byungjung has joined #tpac 01:07:07 israelh has joined #tpac 01:07:12 paul has joined #tpac 01:07:16 Rossen_ has joined #tpac 01:07:34 JinpengHuai: The Web platform includes increasing numbers of Chinese-origin ideas 01:08:02 JinpengHuai: Open Data opens many possibilities 01:08:35 JinpengHuai: Beihang became first host of W3C in China - helping industry in Asia Pacific build the Web 01:09:08 JinpengHuai: We really appreciate the generosity of Tencent - I wish you a successful TPAC here in Shenzhen 01:09:55 csjung__ has joined #tpac 01:10:00 Jeff: Prof Huai and I have both praised Tencent... so welcome Dowson Tong 01:10:04 Topic: Dowson Tong 01:10:34 DowsonTong: As exclusive host for W3C TPAC2013, honoured to welcome you to Shenzhen 01:11:06 DowsonTong: W3C continues to drive the development of the Web. Tencent joined 2 years ago to make our contribution to this 01:11:44 DowsonTong: 15 years ago, Tencent was founded here. Since then we have grown a great deal. QQ (browser/messenger) is the most used in China 01:12:11 DowsonTong: Our services that Chinese companies use depend on the open standards of the Web 01:12:20 ... that's why we're here 01:12:23 richt has joined #tpac 01:12:38 ... finally - wish you success for TPAC and enjoy your stay in Shenzhen 01:13:20 myakura has joined #tpac 01:13:30 Tomoyuki has joined #tpac 01:13:35 Jeff: The Tech Plenary focuses on technical developments. We have a morning full of presentations on the tech developments in W3C. 01:13:49 Topic: Normative References (Philippe Le Hégaret, Ralph Swick) 01:13:51 ScottC has joined #tpac 01:14:32 Jeff: It's a question that comes up - how and when can W3C specs refer to external docs normatively 01:14:39 Michael_Kang has joined #tpac 01:15:03 gcapiel has joined #tpac 01:15:27 Plh: Slides are available at http://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references 01:15:27 kennyluck has joined #tpac 01:15:56 -> http://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/1113-normative-references/ Slides on Normative References 01:16:00 jcverdie has joined #tpac 01:16:06 Ralph: We wanted to talk about changes we've made to make transition easier 01:16:16 Slide 1 01:16:22 -> http://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references Criteria used by the Director to evaluate normative references 01:16:23 jeff has joined #tpac 01:16:26 schuki has joined #tpac 01:16:26 jerome has joined #tpac 01:16:38 rhauck has joined #tpac 01:17:10 alex has joined #tpac 01:17:21 richt_ has joined #tpac 01:17:41 csjung___ has joined #tpac 01:17:49 Ralph: The existing policy has worked well but it's become a problem in recent years. If we needed to refer to something normatively, required whole external doc to be of similar status, including non-W3C standards 01:17:58 gwm has joined #tpac 01:18:42 Ralph: The director, often delegated to Philippe and me, looks at the normative references (slide 2) 01:19:01 Slide 3 01:19:19 wonsuk has joined #tpac 01:19:57 Ralph__ has joined #tpac 01:20:09 the document doesn't seem to address the stability of the 'pointer' itself; i.e. given the reference text in the W3C document, can the intended referenced text actually be found over time? ideally, the document has a stable URL 01:20:20 Ralph: Grouped what we think of as important into 3 groups 01:20:22 Slide 4 01:20:55 chaals has joined #tpac 01:21:11 -Ralph 01:22:46 Ralph: Ian Jacobs has written about this in relation how others should refer to our documents. That's out of scope for our work - we're just talking about references made within our own docs 01:22:56 plh: Slide 5 01:23:08 richt has joined #tpac 01:23:10 ed_ has joined #tpac 01:23:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:23:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html chaals 01:23:28 Loren has joined #tpac 01:23:33 drott has joined #tpac 01:23:35 amy has joined #tpac 01:24:15 plh: Third bullet is more fine grained. How stable is the referred to element within a doc? It might be stable although others around it might not be. 01:24:36 veronica has joined #tpac 01:24:43 AllanJ has joined #tpac 01:24:43 koalie has joined #tpac 01:24:59 kazho_ has joined #tpac 01:25:03 ChristianFuhrhop4 has joined #tpac 01:25:09 plh: Are you referring to a feature or just a name? Often these days a spec references a definition so it doesn't need to rely on the details 01:25:11 rrsagent, make log public 01:25:40 Present+ chaals 01:25:48 Chair: Jeff 01:25:48 adrianba has joined #tpac 01:25:52 Jirka has joined #tpac 01:26:00 masinter has joined #tpac 01:26:07 plh: slide 6 01:26:12 Takahiro_ has joined #tpac 01:26:19 nor does the text establish that the document can in fact be acquired 'reasonably' (e.g. you don't have to sign a license just to get the document, or join another body, or the like). 01:26:44 angel has joined #tpac 01:26:47 plh: Market may have a view on stability and need for progress 01:27:00 plh: slide 7 01:28:29 plh: slide 8 which refers to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references 01:28:55 s/Pear River/Pearl River/ 01:28:58 Ralph_: We have a moment for questions 01:29:06 DavidSinger 01:29:20 gcapiel1 has joined #tpac 01:29:34 Alan has joined #tpac 01:29:48 dsinger: Can you find the thing referred to? It may move (not everyone keeps URLs persistently). 01:29:52 Ralph has joined #tpac 01:29:58 ed_ has joined #tpac 01:30:05 jcverdie_ has joined #tpac 01:30:08 gcapiel2 has joined #tpac 01:30:30 Ralph_: We've not addressed that, no, but we have addressed the other point you raised about whether the doc is available generally (not behind a paywall/membership0 01:30:52 Jeff: Thanks the Shenzhen officials for coming 01:31:00 plh has joined #tpac 01:31:10 scribe: MichaelC 01:31:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:31:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html PhilA 01:31:27 topic: The Document License Experiment in the HTML Working Group 01:32:09 csjung has joined #tpac 01:32:20 Ryladog has joined #tpac 01:32:42 ddahl has joined #tpac 01:32:45 tbl: these are exciting bits of technology this morning aren't they? :) 01:33:00 but they're important topics 01:33:18 if you get document license wrong, other things go wrong 01:33:22 Jeanne has joined #tpac 01:33:46 regarding question of reference going 404, could request permission that we host a copy 01:34:05 in a report recently 45% of US supreme court decision references are 404 01:34:10 +Ralph 01:34:20 on to licensing 01:34:37 -Ralph 01:34:39 there has been a lot of discussion about what license we should have on our spec 01:34:43 not resolved 01:35:10 some don't want specs to fork because it impairs implentation 01:35:17 others want to be able to use anything anywhere 01:35:26 for HTML we have gone ahead with an alternate license 01:35:29 mchampion has joined #tpac 01:35:29 DV has joined #tpac 01:35:30 darobin has joined #tpac 01:35:38 cc-by Creative Commons With Attribution 01:35:51 anybody can republish but must acknowledge source 01:36:08 -fjh 01:36:17 since the time we made the decision to adopt that license for that spec 01:36:31 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/ 01:36:34 desire to be able to release under GPL has been expressed 01:36:52 SteveZ has joined #tpac 01:37:01 viral license, anybody can republish indefinitely 01:37:22 I see your 2.0 amy and raise you to 3.0 :-) http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ 01:37:25 under cc-by someone can republish but they must credit 01:37:27 tx! 01:37:42 Mohammed has joined #tpac 01:37:45 it's an open question of whether someone republishing in accordance with cc-by has right to put their copy under GPL 01:37:59 (legal interpretation question) 01:38:00 naomi has joined #tpac 01:38:12 the question of whether Consortium should go this direction is open 01:38:21 my personal view is copyright is not the tool to use to avoid forking 01:38:28 Ralph__ has joined #tpac 01:38:28 even though in fact we want to avoid forks 01:38:41 the right to fork keeps us honest 01:38:48 Loren has joined #tpac 01:38:55 we have to act in such a manner that people don't want to 01:38:56 AWK has joined #tpac 01:39:31 wjs has joined #tpac 01:39:34 chaals1 has joined #tpac 01:39:35 my view on the legalities is that if GPL can't be used on a cc-by document, then there is a bug in the license 01:39:38 dino has joined #tpac 01:39:55 s/license/GPL license/ 01:40:05 there should be clear lines between the licenses 01:40:30 I would have thought that GPL and cc-by would be in sub relationship to each other 01:40:34 gcapiel1 has joined #tpac 01:40:36 ddahl has joined #tpac 01:40:56 WayneCarr has joined #tpac 01:41:04 Yesterday's AC meeting was a cozy space, now we're in a big room 01:41:23 please pretend it's a cozy space for the upcoming discussion 01:41:40 01:41:45 Is there something more to this discussion than Taste Great vs. Less Filling? 01:41:55 -- Manu Sporny 01:41:57 hiroto has joined #tpac 01:42:05 Jirka2 has joined #tpac 01:42:09 ms: you must have considered public domain license at some point 01:42:30 you seem to have personal desire for public domain 01:42:39 why is it not considered more strongly? 01:43:03 StephanSteglich has joined #tpac 01:43:03 s/you seem to have/there seems to be/ 01:43:22 tbl: I wasn't aware of a movement towards public domain desire 01:43:54 It seems like the minute W3C put HTML5 on github, this whole discussion about copyright became moot 01:43:55 perhaps have not wanted to support ability to remove attribute and provenance 01:43:57 Eliot has joined #tpac 01:43:58 What am I missing? 01:43:58 ChristianFuhrhop5 has joined #tpac 01:44:10 lisaSeeman has joined #tpac 01:44:18 it's a question of winning over hearts and minds 01:44:38 would like information about valid use cases in which preserving attribution is an impediment 01:44:43 cc-by is 'close to public domain'. wanting attribution doesn't seem unreasonable 01:44:56 -- David Baron 01:45:01 ChristianFuhrhop6 has joined #tpac 01:45:04 lbolstad_ has joined #tpac 01:45:05 copyright isn't going to stop spec bifurcation 01:45:12 it's here, we have to deal with it 01:45:14 shoko has joined #tpac 01:45:15 db: cc-by isn't just cc-0 plus attribution 01:45:15 also, cc-by satisfies the use-cases and requirements we collected. we can't move the goalposts 01:45:16 there are additional requirements 01:45:19 I don't see how copyright is going to help 01:45:25 (IANAL ;-)) 01:45:37 think the incompatbility with GPL comes from those additional requirements 01:45:40 tbl: expect so 01:45:51 s/expect/imagine/ 01:45:51 ywu has joined #tpac 01:45:59 Loren has joined #tpac 01:46:02 -- Larry Masinter 01:46:27 lm: though the concern came from organizations that didn't want IP released via an open license in W3C spec 01:46:40 so the license binds participants together 01:47:03 -- Doug Schepers 01:47:22 ds: I share the personal preference for cc-by 01:47:25 I agree with attribution 01:47:33 putting something on github says "please feel free to fork me" 01:47:36 also think doc should be as available as possibl 01:47:42 s/possibl/possible/ 01:47:50 I work with @@ on documentation 01:47:56 have trouble pulling in images 01:48:02 +Ralph 01:48:18 with cc-by could pull spec content into documentation more freely 01:48:19 [ArtB, the one place copyright helps is when some large industrial consortium takes the spec and produces a b0rken fork that they inflict on us. Since they think in terms of copyright and lawyers, they are in fact vulnerable to being told off through a notice regarding copyright. Against which, it can be annoying in other places...] 01:48:21 s/@@/webplatform.org 01:48:29 Ralph has joined #tpac 01:48:30 tbl: so if there is example text under W3C license, can't be pulled in? 01:48:31 -Ralph 01:48:37 s/@@/Web Platform Docs/ 01:49:06 ds: because web platform docs is cc-by, can't pull in the content under the more restrictive license 01:49:09 -- Ian Jacobs 01:49:26 ij: there are a lot of people here, maybe we could poll the room 01:49:57 tbl: hmm, we didn't set up for a valid poll, but could try 01:50:02 not binding, it's a bit random 01:50:10 MikeSmith has joined #tpac 01:50:44 let's consider three options: W3C license at is now, cc-by, cc-0 01:51:37 W3C license - almost indistinguishable support 01:51:45 cc-by - modest support 01:51:59 cc-0 - roughly the same, maybe slightly more 01:52:06 01:52:31 Mohammed has joined #tpac 01:52:32 kazho has joined #tpac 01:52:36 wyh has joined #tpac 01:52:44 don't care - also modest 01:52:47 -- Glen Cox 01:53:03 Glen Adams 01:53:32 [scribe seemed to hear something different to what was over here… conclusion, we need to learn to use the hum better, or should stick to the clap which is more usual here] 01:53:34 gc: why can't content be referenced via link, why does it have to be copied in? 01:53:39 -- David Singer 01:53:57 ds: you could ask W3C for permission to repurpose, answer probably would be yes 01:54:08 -- Doug Schepers 01:54:25 ds: there is just enough confusion here that mistakes could be made 01:54:52 fan has joined #tpac 01:55:03 -- David Singer 01:55:15 ds: could use reasonable portions of spec, seems clear 01:55:18 -- Doug Schepers 01:55:25 ds: communicating all that difficult 01:55:38 anyway, want to solve the general use case, not just mine 01:55:59 if we want specs to be used as widely and interoperably as possible, let's open up the license 01:56:03 -- Manu Sporny 01:56:07 igarashi has joined #tpac 01:56:22 ms: there are instances where attribution requirements don't make sense 01:56:31 e.g., primer documents that incorporate content 01:56:42 can we give WGs ability to decide which license they want to use? 01:56:53 know some groups would have rather published as public domain 01:56:54 hiro has joined #tpac 01:56:59 Noriya has joined #tpac 01:57:11 fear of forking, using spec to competitive advantage doesn't seem like strong argument 01:57:22 people know W3C is authoritative source 01:57:31 seems the fears are driven by legal departments 01:57:47 so could allow groups to choose between cc-by and cc-0 01:58:12 tbl: good point, though if groups have that option, they'll spend time debating license rather than developing tech 01:58:48 we have granted license for republishing before but didn't allow changes, we retain change control 01:58:56 otherwise you have a destructive fork 01:59:04 two versions of web 01:59:30 -- Mike Champion 01:59:45 who's interested in a forking policy? 01:59:53 mc: fundamental value of W3C is consensus and patent commitment 01:59:59 Tomoyuki1 has joined #tpac 02:00:34 kiyoshi has joined #tpac 02:00:35 we resist change because concern that forks without attribution could result in specs that appear to be e.g., HTML but lack the patent commitments 02:00:54 jmr has joined #tpac 02:00:56 yes lawyers are speaking to that but don't think it's just a lawyer POV 02:01:17 let's continue experiment with cc-by and come back in a year or two to revisit 02:01:52 by the way, it's clear that the RF grants from members extend to the W3C spec., not to possible uses of the same text/ideas elsewhere. "You may not have a license" is an appropriate warning... 02:02:37 ddahl has joined #tpac 02:02:42 scribe: Ivan 02:02:45 scribenick: ivan 02:03:13 aboyet has joined #tpac 02:03:15 razybon has joined #tpac 02:04:01 scribenick: ivan 02:04:11 dauwhe has joined #tpac 02:04:14 kazho has joined #tpac 02:04:16 jinkyu_seong has joined #tpac 02:04:30 kazho_ has joined #tpac 02:04:34 csjung has joined #tpac 02:05:39 yohsumi_ has joined #tpac 02:05:50 yuka_o has joined #tpac 02:06:00 kiyoshi has joined #tpac 02:06:08 nishikawa has joined #tpac 02:06:25 +Chris_Wilson 02:07:21 -Chris_Wilson 02:07:27 +Ralph 02:07:49 stevefaulkner has joined #tpac 02:08:23 -Ralph 02:08:33 +Chris_Wilson 02:09:46 -Chris_Wilson 02:10:10 mete has joined #tpac 02:12:01 +Chris_Wilson 02:12:08 Keiji has joined #tpac 02:13:15 -Chris_Wilson 02:14:23 Tomoyuki has joined #tpac 02:14:24 +CWilso 02:15:50 gcapiel has joined #tpac 02:15:53 duga has joined #tpac 02:16:06 zakim, code/ 02:16:06 I don't understand 'code/', fjh 02:16:10 zakim, code/ 02:16:10 I don't understand 'code/', fjh 02:16:13 zakim, code? 02:16:13 the conference code is 93287 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh 02:16:25 +[IPcaller] 02:16:33 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 02:16:33 +fjh; got it 02:17:34 hisao has joined #tpac 02:22:55 -Wuzhou_middle 02:23:40 kinjim has joined #tpac 02:23:44 veronica has joined #tpac 02:23:57 csjung has joined #tpac 02:25:23 csjung_ has joined #tpac 02:25:29 aboyet has joined #tpac 02:25:32 ywu has joined #tpac 02:25:43 hiroki has joined #tpac 02:26:01 wonsuk has joined #tpac 02:26:54 marie has joined #tpac 02:27:40 MichaelC has joined #tpac 02:28:40 myakura has joined #tpac 02:29:26 jmr has joined #tpac 02:29:31 csjung__ has joined #tpac 02:29:36 Nikos has joined #tpac 02:29:53 Noriya has joined #tpac 02:30:01 ivan has joined #tpac 02:30:25 chaals has joined #tpac 02:30:42 csjung__ has joined #tpac 02:30:46 emalasky has joined #tpac 02:31:04 abarsto has joined #tpac 02:31:30 MoZ has joined #tpac 02:31:38 emalasky1 has joined #tpac 02:31:39 MarcFisher has joined #tpac 02:31:43 Jirka2 has joined #tpac 02:31:45 naomi has joined #tpac 02:31:59 Takahiro has joined #tpac 02:32:01 csjung__ has joined #tpac 02:32:28 jcverdie_ has joined #tpac 02:32:45 a12u has joined #tpac 02:32:46 Ralph_ has joined #tpac 02:32:56 chaals has joined #tpac 02:32:57 csjung___ has joined #tpac 02:32:59 gcapiel has joined #tpac 02:33:00 zakim, who is here? 02:33:00 On the phone I see Wayne_Carr (muted), CWilso (muted), fjh (muted) 02:33:01 On IRC I see gcapiel, csjung___, chaals, Ralph_, a12u, jcverdie_, csjung__, Takahiro, naomi, Jirka2, MarcFisher, emalasky1, MoZ, ArtB, emalasky, ivan, Noriya, Nikos, jmr, myakura, 02:33:01 ... MichaelC, marie, wonsuk, hiroki, ywu, aboyet, veronica, kinjim 02:33:32 ...and about 95 other people. :) 02:33:43 kurosawa has joined #tpac 02:33:48 nigel has joined #tpac 02:33:54 +Wuzhou_middle 02:34:01 byungjung has joined #tpac 02:34:10 gcapiel1 has joined #tpac 02:34:29 Loren has joined #tpac 02:34:35 gwm has joined #tpac 02:34:54 Ruinan has joined #tpac 02:35:00 Topic: AB's W3C Process document review 02:35:09 hisao_ has joined #tpac 02:35:11 dka has joined #tpac 02:35:21 igarashi has joined #tpac 02:35:27 +Ralph 02:35:37 Jeanne has joined #tpac 02:35:45 -Ralph 02:35:50 israelh has joined #tpac 02:35:55 test 02:36:21 virginie has joined #tpac 02:36:29 Nikos has left #tpac 02:36:53 nikos has joined #tpac 02:37:09 ed_ has joined #tpac 02:37:10 kiyoshi_ has joined #tpac 02:37:27 jeff has joined #tpac 02:37:33 ddahl has joined #tpac 02:38:11 Rossen_ has joined #tpac 02:38:24 bgidon has joined #tpac 02:38:31 Anyone minuting? 02:38:32 SteveZ: I am currently chair of the process document review group, Charles is the editor of that new document 02:38:35 ah 02:39:10 Is this the doc https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/AB/raw-file/default/tr.html ? 02:39:11 … what I want to do is to give a quick overview on why we are here, what we are proposing to change 02:39:19 … it is currently in last call review 02:39:39 What we started up with a process 'waterfall development' 02:39:51 <_nikos_office> _nikos_office has joined #tpac 02:40:11 … starting from one step, refined, then I have functional completeness, then sent to last call, then to implementation experience, finall a rec 02:40:16 /me is there a link tot he slides? 02:40:20 … what we discovered is that this is not what is happening 02:40:35 … in software development, or standards' space either 02:40:43 -> http://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/sz-tpac2013/ Steve's slides 02:40:53 … more accurately what is happening is that the the fpwd may not have all the pieces, 02:41:05 … some of the pieces may be relatively developed (eg, coming from a CG) 02:41:09 ddahl has joined #tpac 02:41:11 Daniel_Austin has joined #TPAC 02:41:13 … i have a series of drafts 02:41:26 … some of the pieces may be implemented relatively early 02:41:37 … ie, getting to CR i may have a number of implementations and tests 02:41:55 … instead of having a sequence of steps I may have parallel pieces 02:41:57 Noriya has joined #tpac 02:42:03 aboyet has joined #tpac 02:42:05 Alan has joined #tpac 02:42:05 … some of them may be stable enough for reference 02:42:18 … what we try to work for is doing the specs in a more agile way 02:42:23 LisaSee has joined #tpac 02:42:28 … doing them in smaller chunks (modules, fragments) 02:42:47 … with implementations and (experimental) developments along 02:42:53 Youngsun_Ryu has joined #tpac 02:43:03 … finally developing tests in conjunction with teh spec development 02:43:13 … this is already being done without a process change 02:43:19 masatakayakura has joined #tpac 02:43:22 igarashi has joined #tpac 02:43:31 We began to look at this issue in '11, asking people about their problems 02:43:42 AWK has joined #tpac 02:43:44 astearns has joined #tpac 02:43:54 … the AB with the people from those sessions, sent a compiled list to the chairs 02:44:07 … 'which of these are important to chagne'? 02:44:13 darobin has joined #tpac 02:44:16 s/chagne/change/ 02:44:29 … Of the 12 priority items, 6 are apply to chapter 7 draft we are talking about here 02:44:38 AnnB has joined #tpac 02:44:39 1. integrating implementation in the process 02:44:48 2. doest no math modern developments 02:44:55 3. desire for modern references 02:45:11 4. last call may not be as useful as intended 02:45:14 jcverdi__ has joined #tpac 02:45:24 5. interaction between lc and cr is confusing for outsider 02:45:33 6. lack of test case and interop development 02:45:51 Last year at tpac we reported, and then we were looking at these issues 02:46:00 JonathanJ has joined #tpac 02:46:01 … we realized that we can make a number of process change 02:46:07 … eg, we could get rid of activities 02:46:17 … eg, we could break the document 02:46:22 Eliot_ has joined #tpac 02:46:32 … but applying our own rules on agile dev., and focus on one piece 02:46:36 lbolstad_ has joined #tpac 02:46:48 … most of the things are concerned with the interaction of lc, cr, and pr 02:46:58 … we want to get rid of unnecessary steps 02:47:06 … that led us cutting down our work 02:47:15 … in future we will make the other changes, later 02:47:23 What are the changes? 02:47:26 ywu has joined #tpac 02:47:31 … No change of the pattern policy 02:47:45 wuwei_ has joined #tpac 02:47:52 … we changed the the role of last call, separating the pr issue, and is now attached to cr 02:48:02 s/pattern/patent/ 02:48:05 s/pr/pr exclusion/ 02:48:07 shepazu has joined #tpac 02:48:23 … the other was to get the responsibility of the wg to get large review 02:48:37 yahui has joined #tpac 02:48:49 … we simplified the diagrams to fewer maturity levels: wd-s, cr, and rec 02:49:05 … doing parallelization we overlap the ac review with the cr 02:49:23 Another piece was to clarify and simplify the document 02:49:40 … removing the non-normative advice, and move that to a separate document maintained by the team 02:49:51 … we made it clear what the normative pieces are 02:50:30 (Steve shows extracts of the document) 02:50:42 … we try to list what _must_ happen 02:50:47 shoko has joined #tpac 02:50:58 … in the same process we identify _may_ and _should_ requirements 02:51:30 We also try to identify what the director considers adequate review and implementation experience 02:51:35 … guidelines and not rules 02:51:47 Finally, we require public statemetns on the director's decision 02:51:57 We already identified issues 02:52:18 I refer to last call candidate rec for ipr text issues 02:52:27 … so we may call that cr 02:52:38 … and add an explanatory text for ipr 02:52:48 kodonog has joined #tpac 02:52:55 Early in the process things can get fully defined before the doc as a whole 02:53:02 … we encourage early wide review 02:53:22 … documents identify sections in the document that are available for review early in the process 02:53:41 … issue is to signal that the document as a whole is complete 02:54:05 There is also an issue what should happen in the status section; today it is more boilerplate and that could be removed 02:54:11 rhauck2 has joined #tpac 02:54:29 The wide review piece of lc does not require director's call 02:54:45 It was suggested to rename 'rec' call 'standards' 02:54:56 kinjim_ has joined #tpac 02:55:10 The LC open until nov 27, comments to public-w3-process@w3.org 02:55:14 … issues are public 02:55:26 irc is public #w3cprocess 02:55:33 … minutes also public 02:55:50 Target to have a final version for AC review in January 02:55:52 Questions? 02:56:03 (applause) 02:56:10 hisao has joined #tpac 02:56:15 is there a reason this isn't on My Questionnaires? 02:56:26 Judy: I think there are good changes; one particular issue 02:56:29 hober has joined #tpac 02:56:36 dsinger, I think this is a call for comments, not the formal review yet (?) 02:56:39 gcapiel has joined #tpac 02:56:51 jcverdie_ has joined #tpac 02:56:55 [Fantasai: Applause! Awesome!] 02:56:59 timbl has joined #tpac 02:57:03 … there are a few groups that have a horizontal functions, like WAI PF, they have to schedule very carefully to get the expertise available 02:57:06 gcapiel1 has joined #tpac 02:57:16 … I noticed to have a heads-up for next steps 02:57:26 Feedback to organisers -- I'm not sure this presentation is the best use of our collective time. I'm pretty sure most people are not paying attention, and it could have been discussed on email. (Also, even the presentation makes it clear this is for AC review). I'm not sure why it wasn't a BOF. 02:57:29 shoko_ has joined #tpac 02:57:29 StephanSteglich has joined #tpac 02:57:30 … but cross review groups would need a heads-up for the heads-up 02:57:31 MohammedD has joined #tpac 02:57:48 … is there a possibility to provide more assurance that there would be a heads-up (not just recommended) 02:58:01 … and whether there should be a specific practice for all the groups to use 02:58:12 Good comment Judy! 02:58:19 Dino: Thanks for the feedback. The theory (maybe wrong) is that developers are impacted by the W3C Process and we want to make sure they have awareness and we get their feedback. 02:58:26 I've been wondering the same thing 02:58:43 How many horizontal groups do we have now? 02:58:53 SteveZ: the category of 'other things' includes a provision to change how things are chartered, also with the provision to the horizontal groups, opening a liaison experience to have an identified person for a continuous information flow 02:59:01 Security, Privacy, A11Y, TAG, I18N, Mobile, ... 02:59:28 jeff, Oh, I agree that it is important and that WG members should give feedback. I just feel the collective time of 300+ people is extremely valuable. I might be in the minority. 02:59:35 .. the second one is: in some cases a major arch change late int he process is not the good place to do it, so each release should identify what needs review 02:59:57 igarashi has joined #tpac 03:00:14 charles: one of the goals was to get out of the way of people doing the work 03:00:14 … you cannot get into cr unless you got the right review 03:00:20 … but we do not tell you how to do that 03:00:26 Dino: Fair enough. In fact that's why most of the "plenary" is breakouts. For a variety of reasons, we needed more "plenary" this year. 03:00:44 … having a process setting rules about scheduling did not seem to be helpful 03:00:49 duga has joined #tpac 03:00:52 Rossen_ has joined #tpac 03:00:58 … you got to work with the dependencies, other groups, etc 03:01:26 So, are we now going to need a process to manage the [review] process? 03:01:38 … if you get it right, and normal practice to coordinate with other groups is not talk to them, no nasty surprises, than it works 03:01:51 jeff: the breakouts start at 2pm right? That's not "most". Anyway, I don't want to complain. I understand there are important topics that need to be broadcast to a collective audience. 03:02:16 judy: i would encourage regular mechanism 03:02:31 +1 to Judy's proposal 03:02:32 Thanks, Mike. 03:03:07 paul cotton: the normal wg transition to the old lc the group did of its own, and cr was with the dirctor, when formal objections are dealt with 03:03:31 charles: any time you go to the director you get the formal objections are handled, currently lccr 03:03:55 Does the AB have some data that shows that if a group had followed this proposal it would have made a substantive difference? 03:03:58 SteveZ: that is when the _have_ to take place, although you can discuss witht he director earlier 03:04:20 paul cotton: postponing formal objection is actually a good things, people can calm down... 03:04:42 phila: you mentioned the 'going back', where do you go back to 03:04:44 ArtB, csswg would not delay publishing updates to CRs in order to batch them if it were possible to edit a CR without changing its status to WD 03:05:09 charles: the normal situation you go from CR to a new CR 03:05:25 but if "editing a CR" mean adding any new features or norm refs, then a Patent exclusion must be done 03:05:41 … today the situation is to go back to a new lc, pattern exclusion, 3 weeks, etc, before they are allowed back to CR 03:06:00 … the public sees 'last call' and another 'last call', etc, and that is confusing 03:06:29 … we tried to eliminate that, pushing wg-s to get their documents reviewed right, and minimize the confusing symbols even when going back 03:06:34 SteveZ: thank you all 03:06:48 naomi has joined #tpac 03:06:54 Speaking as an AB member who has been in these discussions: I'd just reiterate that the spirit of these changes is to tell WGs WHAT they need to do before asking to go to Recommendation, not so much HOW they need to do it. Maybe some "how" things need to be more explicit, but there will be a tendency to say "let's have WGs and WAI/I18N/etc figure out how to optimize their own interactions, not suggest that the process doc cover all contingincies 03:06:57 veronica has joined #tpac 03:07:10 scribe: plh 03:07:11 scribe: Philippe 03:07:17 scribenick: plh 03:07:27 Topic: Discussion with the TAG 03:07:38 aizu has joined #tpac 03:07:46 Noriya_ has joined #tpac 03:07:57 dsr has joined #tpac 03:08:06 [Dan is trying to figure out the architecture of a VGA plug] 03:08:13 angel has joined #tpac 03:08:34 cyril has joined #tpac 03:08:35 [to Dan's defense, this VGA connector is not quite standards-comnpliant] 03:08:57 kazho has joined #tpac 03:08:57 Dan: the idea is to have a Q&A 03:09:01 ... so what is the TAG? 03:09:11 gcapiel has joined #tpac 03:09:12 ... it's a special WQG chartered by the W3C Process 03:09:24 ... to document and build consensus around the principles of Web Architecture 03:09:31 ... resolve arch issues 03:09:37 chaals has joined #tpac 03:09:49 ... we have Anne, Tim, Alex, Peter and Dan on stage 03:09:57 Tomoyuki has joined #tpac 03:10:07 what about Sergey ;) 03:10:12 ... we're focusing on web of applications 03:10:22 ... we give reviews and feedback 03:10:36 ... for example the web audio, webrtc, web compoenents, web animations, web crypto 03:10:43 ... helping withliaisons, like IETF and TC39 03:10:49 ... JS, JSON 03:10:53 ... best practices guidelines 03:10:58 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ Technical Architecture Group home 03:11:02 ... EME 03:11:09 [Sergey Konstantinov is also part of the TAG] 03:11:19 ... securityof the Web 03:11:22 kiyoshi_ has joined #tpac 03:11:25 ... looking into web dev outreach 03:11:40 ... mostly oriented around Q&A and feedback 03:11:51 ... next f2f is on London in January and in SF in early April 03:11:57 ... looking at doing outreach there 03:12:02 wwu has joined #tpac 03:12:11 ... lastly, we have 2 seats up for election 03:12:22 ... representatives on the TAG are elected 03:12:43 Alan has joined #tpac 03:12:44 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #tpac 03:12:45 /join#3tpac-chat 03:12:47 ...if you have questions about the election, come to the mic or us 03:12:52 h/awkward 03:13:29 Tomoyuki1 has joined #tpac 03:13:30 ... we'd like your feedback or/and questions 03:13:39 Noriya has joined #tpac 03:13:42 ... we'd like to hear from all, especially WG participants 03:13:55 [we want feedback from _real_ people ;-)] 03:13:56 ... what should we working on? 03:14:06 Judy has joined #tpac 03:14:09 Dom: the work you guys started is really good 03:14:18 ... re API design, that's a constant question 03:14:23 Dong-Young_Lee has joined #tpac 03:14:25 ... Robin started something 2 years ago 03:14:31 ... would be good to take it on and continue it 03:14:35 s/something/an API cook book/ 03:14:35 dka has joined #tpac 03:14:47 Alex: I support that for a long term goal 03:15:02 ... but it seems more productive to work hand-in-hand with you on specific issues 03:15:03 stephane has joined #tpac 03:15:17 ... how it interoperates with the rest of the platform... 03:15:22 ... trying to make your docuemnt better 03:15:25 timbl has joined #tpac 03:15:26 ... we'll continue the reviews 03:15:29 kazho has joined #tpac 03:15:37 ... and extract commonality afterwards 03:15:47 ... so we support the goal of guidelines 03:15:50 hisa has joined #tpac 03:15:51 ... but trying to gather experience 03:16:17 Dom: agree with the approach 03:16:29 ... but there are small things like how to write variables, etc. 03:16:34 ... taking time from WGs 03:16:50 Alex: this tends to uncover large issues however 03:16:57 Dom: How do we deal with permissions and managing access to APIs? 03:16:59 [+1 to Dom. Getting this stuff written down should be a key goal] 03:17:10 Alex: don't expect magic from us, but we're happy to help 03:17:19 ... ping us and we'll schedule time 03:17:24 ... we're a consulting group at this point 03:17:32 Dom: I'll bring this feedback back 03:17:40 gcapiel1 has joined #tpac 03:17:53 ... increasing the visibility of the work would be nice 03:18:02 Alex: we have limited bandwidth 03:18:13 ... it does require study for us to come in 03:18:13 +1 to dom request 03:18:15 Rossen_awa has joined #tpac 03:18:34 ... would be great and as we continue to show success of improving specs, that profile will be raised through success 03:18:49 Dom: before the groups can invite you, they need to know that they have this ability 03:19:16 Manu: when I started to work at W3C, the standard was to avoid the TAG 03:19:32 ... was meant that the TAG wasn't affecting the work 03:19:52 ... I understand that the TAG wants the architecture to work, and I understand the recent changes in the TAG 03:20:09 ... but when I hear things like limited bandwidth, that puts me back into the previous mindset 03:20:37 ... if you have limited bandwidth, peharps there is an opportunity to create a spec reviewer task force 03:20:42 ... or increasing the number of folks on the TAG 03:20:54 ... the other part is that may people know that you exist 03:21:16 ... so maybe scheduling time whenever you see a new draft, trying to inject yourselves could help 03:21:44 Alex: we can't review all drafts in the world, but we'd like toi engage with groups as early as possible 03:21:44 Jeanne has joined #tpac 03:21:54 ... so avoid pain as much as possible 03:21:54 Youngsun_Ryu_ has joined #tpac 03:22:01 ... but I understand the critic 03:22:15 ... we'll continue to build a library of successful reviews 03:22:21 ... to help the visibility of the TAG 03:22:30 ... we'd like to collaborate with you early 03:22:37 ... and don't think that we can't help 03:23:00 Dan: +1. the TAG was helpful previously but I'd like to see that be the norm 03:23:09 ... that working with the TAG is a positive experience 03:23:31 Junglee: re collaboration between w3c and whatwg 03:23:35 ... I work on XHR 03:23:40 MichaelC_ has joined #tpac 03:23:51 kotakagi has joined #tpac 03:23:51 kotakagi_ has joined #tpac 03:23:52 kotakag__ has joined #tpac 03:23:57 ...recently Anne was defining of fetching resources in the whatwg 03:24:14 ... how can I handle references to that particular spec in the next version of w3c xhr? 03:24:18 ... smae pb in the html wg 03:24:24 Ruinan_ has joined #tpac 03:24:24 ... can the TAG address this issue? 03:24:32 kotaka___ has joined #tpac 03:24:32 kotak____ has joined #tpac 03:24:33 kota_____ has joined #tpac 03:24:35 shan has joined #tpac 03:24:50 Anne: we didn't discuss this in the context of the TAG. it's an issue related to licensing and process 03:24:55 ... the best people to ask is the AB or the AC 03:25:06 Junglee: how about referecing the fetch spec? 03:25:16 Anne: you should just reference imho. no big deal to me. 03:25:49 Natasha: the event is london was awesome 03:25:50 Ian has joined #tpac 03:25:51 ... please do more of it 03:26:23 ... maybe incorporate the TAG into chairs training as well? 03:26:28 ... maybe a wiki page 03:26:40 ... so the chairs can be the voice of the TAG and have the discussion when there is a need to 03:26:44 Alex: seems good 03:26:53 Dan: so it's all clear? 03:27:02 Tim: yes, we could have done the chairs breakfast 03:27:10 what? 03:27:16 ... the chairs training is an important idea 03:27:27 ... the very first chairs meeting was fantastic 03:27:40 richt has joined #tpac 03:27:41 ...difficult to get everybody together 03:27:42 igarashi has joined #tpac 03:27:54 Charles: the TAG as a technical group is elected 03:27:58 ... that seems weird 03:28:17 ... how does it really work, ie limited in size and by election? 03:28:23 ... do we have the right people? 03:28:26 nkic__ has joined #tpac 03:28:27 ... does the limitation help? 03:28:40 Tim: ask the judges that 03:28:58 ... to the extend that folks are elected and could be rather random, I get along with everybody 03:29:09 ... I forward to see who is going to be 03:29:12 s/extend/extent/ 03:29:19 ... but at the moment, they seem reasonnable people 03:29:24 ... it's good to have continuity 03:29:25 shan_ has joined #tpac 03:29:27 ... as welll as changes 03:29:29 ... variety 03:29:35 ... and overlap 03:29:49 Dan: the last tag election when a number of new memeber came in 03:29:54 ... and alot of discussion in the AC 03:30:00 ... and lot of effort 03:30:10 ... to promote the idea a change of expertize 03:30:17 ... that worked, even if it was political 03:30:31 ... to me, that's democracy in action and was quite effective 03:30:48 Alex: it strikes me that it's about priority setting 03:31:04 ... we could spend time dealing with issues that don't impact people 03:31:25 ... we'd like to hear your priorities for sure 03:31:38 MikeChampion: TAG history question 03:31:55 ... constrasting TAG and the IAB 03:32:06 MarcFisher has joined #tpac 03:32:08 s/Junglee/Jungkee/ 03:32:21 MD has joined #TPAC 03:32:21 ... was told that IAB has less judgmental process 03:32:22 Alan has joined #tpac 03:32:38 ... more careful in balancing point of view and expertise 03:32:45 [I think Michael is alluding to the IESG http://www.ietf.org/iesg/] 03:32:46 veronica has joined #tpac 03:32:47 MichaelC_ has joined #tpac 03:32:50 ... did you think of using that kind of model for the election? 03:33:00 Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler and more inclusive to simply morph the TAG into an Interest Group? 03:33:02 Tim: different structure 03:33:10 ... IESG have the area directors 03:33:23 ... IETF doesn't have domain leads because it's all volunteers 03:33:28 Especially since it now mostly a Review + Education and Outreach group? 03:33:29 Michael_Kang has joined #tpac 03:34:01 anssik has joined #tpac 03:34:05 ... [...] the election is good to bring people fresh 03:34:15 ... this time we had people blogging on what the TAG should do 03:34:18 [there is also the Internet Architecture Board (IAB) http://www.iab.org/ ] 03:34:24 ... was pretty useful process and valuable one 03:34:43 ... doesn't happen when you have a community process 03:34:58 Josh_Soref has joined #tpac 03:34:58 timeless has joined #tpac 03:35:02 ... so don't think that the TAG corresponds to anything in the IETF 03:35:12 stakagi2 has joined #tpac 03:35:24 Ann: one bit of history, the AB started the TAG 03:35:39 ... the technical question used to come to the AB which wasn't the appropriate venue 03:35:46 ... thus we created the TAG 03:36:00 ... we purposely made it partially elected and nominated 03:36:07 ... to balance the technical expertise and so on 03:36:20 Charles: one kind of things is struggling with bandwidth 03:36:25 ... in specific area 03:36:42 Dan: security expertize is lacking in the TAG 03:37:08 Tim: it's good to have javascript expertise 03:37:50 Tim: was unfair to talk about web arch without it being written down 03:37:55 ... so the TAG did that 03:38:01 ... while being reactive 03:38:03 israelh has joined #tpac 03:38:16 ... the doc went down deep to answer questions 03:38:25 ... while being light on some aspects 03:38:34 Alex: we're light on media graphic expertise 03:38:47 ... interaction between codecs and network layers 03:38:48 ... SSL 03:38:55 ... that's a new thing for the web platform 03:39:03 ... we're leaning on the expertise of others 03:39:10 Dan: and we need people whi can write specs :) 03:39:14 Jeff: thank you 03:39:56 scribe: amy 03:39:58 topic: Open Mic session 03:40:02 scribenick: amy 03:40:26 bgidon has joined #tpac 03:40:28 Jeff: we've been asked for open mic. this is an informal time for questions, web, W3c, universe 03:41:03 … generally Ann helps facilities for those who don't have english as first language. you can set private channel w/ Ann, grab her or talk to her. 03:41:11 s/ties/tate/ 03:41:15 … for those who would like to raise issues but might need help we nominate Ann 03:41:47 Eliot_ has joined #tpac 03:41:55 -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/IRC 03:41:55 dbaron has joined #tpac 03:41:57 Ann: i'd suggest that anyone who does not know how to use IRC, or go to w3.org/wiki/irc for basic instructions. much of what gets discussed hear is visible there 03:42:05 Mark_Vickers has joined #tpac 03:42:25 s/irc/IRC/ 03:42:43 wjs has joined #tpac 03:42:57 Jeff: as people slowly come to mic. closest to me we have Ralph, COO; PLH, Interaction; TBL: director, Ian Jacobs, Comm Philip Hoscka, Judy Brewer, Wendy Seltzer, legal; Doug Schepers Developers 03:43:30 Cameron McC: for a while now the @@ group and CSS have wanted to publish docs w/ styling. when can we do this 03:43:49 s/@@/SVG Working/ 03:43:51 Ian: please come to site redesign session today. we'll show you examples. 50 pixel style ideas. wireframes don't extend to specs 03:44:09 .. I do have style drafts, if your'e interested in TR. if you're interested in sponsoring pleas talk to me 03:44:11 a1zu has joined #tpac 03:44:17 dka has joined #tpac 03:44:18 Cameraon: quickly, what's the time? 03:44:26 kotakagi has joined #tpac 03:44:30 Ian: that depends on answer for sponsorship (joke). goal is 2014 03:44:53 @@: we had discussions of internet of things. economy of startups, kickstarter 03:45:01 s/@@:/ManuSporny:/ 03:45:32 .. a lot of these startups are using web as core part of business. they're kickstarting a process. but if we look t bringing them here, to help w/ standardization, it's a bit confusing, at least to me, what the selling point is 03:45:48 .. how do we say pay 8K get something in a few years. 03:46:07 … how do we get them involved, membership early in process, and then anything else management has been thinking about 03:46:08 mounir_ has joined #tpac 03:46:12 jeff: great question. several answers 03:46:17 dopi has joined #tpac 03:46:26 naomi_ has joined #tpac 03:46:37 Tim: I'd like to point out we're up here, you're sitting there. I'd like to see answers as well. it's an asymmetric thing 03:47:18 jeff: great question. i think you have to break it down by use cases. first, a lot of startups are doing stuff that's not ready for rec track. we created Community group track to get the visibility in w3c /wout overhead 03:47:42 .. participation is free. no barriers. another answer is 8K we made another class called start up class. it's 2k. 03:47:46 AllanJ has joined #tpac 03:47:58 … if you want to, if it's important to busnsess, not just building product but setting standard. 03:48:06 @@: is that every 2 years? 03:48:08 Yudong has joined #tpac 03:48:13 Jeff; 2k per year for 2 years 03:48:15 s/@@/Manu/ 03:48:17 hiroto has joined #tpac 03:48:37 @@: starts ups say not going to be able to continue after 2 years, not see work thourhg 03:48:54 Dong-Young_Lee has joined #tpac 03:48:55 … they see the revenue through, if they want to really start something w3c 03:48:57 s/@@:/Manu:/ 03:48:58 s/@@/Manu/ 03:49:06 … build something in standardization, only halfway through process 03:49:22 timbl has joined #tpac 03:49:37 s/ManuSporny/Manu/ 03:49:43 Jeff; again, it's a use case issue. it's not usual that startup in angel phrase are ready to be members. if they think that year three or four they're ready then they join in year 3, year 5 if they're optimistic it's not unreasonable. 03:49:57 s/Jeff;/Jeff:/ 03:50:06 …startups aren't one size fits all. we have several options 03:50:14 Tim: do you think we should have modified version of startups 03:50:14 ? 03:50:55 Robin: i wanted to address Manu's issue, having worked in startup, cost isn't membership it's traveling for mtgs. one thing we can do is keep reducing overhead of working on standards 03:51:24 …. we're thinking of how to keep pushing at process level and culturally. bubble down to chairs, remove overhead, push burden away from community 03:51:29 ac has joined #tpac 03:51:49 … process we have is there for a reason. the world has changed a lot. a lot use git hub, put stuff up, we need to be able to match that 03:51:54 kurosawa has joined #tpac 03:51:55 jeff: I think we all agree 03:52:29 Charles: I nearly agree. there's a lot of stuff on git hub that's junk. they end up disappearing because they're not good. we can't lose sight of idea we need to do good things, not just things fast. 03:52:36 … but reducing overhead is a good idea 03:52:49 [Yosuke Funahashi] 03:52:49 Tomoyuki has joined #tpac 03:53:07 Yosuke Funahashi: co chair web and tv. i have a question re: testing. we had a four year plan 03:53:16 … we started this last year. plans to publish results? 03:53:28 virginie has joined #tpac 03:53:36 byungjung has joined #tpac 03:53:40 [There will be a testing presentation at the AC meeting tomorrow morning] 03:53:44 PLH: @@ do results tomorrow at AC. I think there's no reason to make it hidden. I'm sure he'll finish his slides 03:53:57 s/@@/Tobie Langel will 03:54:06 … we've gotten good results on testing. @@ Abraham doing beautiful work 03:54:35 .. there's still plenty of work to be done. I've been pleased w/ the work tobie has done. really looking forward to contiuing that in next eyear 03:54:49 jeff: shall I conclude everything else in consortium is perfect? 03:55:07 Takahiro has joined #tpac 03:55:13 … for those who didn't hear, fantasi said things going in right direction 03:55:43 Alex: several years ago i talked about individual membership. I mollified at the time by idea that individuals could participate in cg process 03:56:04 … w/ CG now a few years old, ask how it's perceived and bring back indiv. memberhsip 03:56:41 shan has joined #tpac 03:56:46 Ian: as far as how it's going, we heard good reports from membership at AC. more than 1,000 participating in CG, RF commitments in CG 03:57:08 yohsumi has joined #tpac 03:57:25 s/1,000/3250/ 03:57:34 …some push specs to rec track. interest in how to do that. CG visibility, ideas of how to join. systems improvements. based on what i'm hearing, there's support. we have more to go 03:58:01 [ There are currently 3374 people participating in community and business groups. ] 03:58:16 Jeff; briefly, individual membership - what problem to solve? to have participation? if we think we need them to pay $? possibly not worth it 03:58:45 Tim: I've always been interested in individual membership. people mail me, saying "I want to join because i think they're a good thing" 03:58:48 s/Jeff;/Jeff:/ 03:59:14 Alan has joined #tpac 03:59:22 .. but others say "I'm involved in X thing". so I think maybe we've found the overhead over actually running this wouldn't be paid for by incoming $ 03:59:52 … we've gotten better at taking credit cards at meetings. from the community people say i am a member even if they don't participate 03:59:58 .. could also be read=only membership 04:00:33 .. be a member to see what' going on, out of interest or support, separate level where you've got an account where you can be allowed to read-write and 04:00:44 .. I'd be happy to revisit this 04:01:24 Judy: in terms in community groups it's been interesting to see, exploration of different topics, at w3c it's allowed us to get new things. one of the hallmarks of w3c work is review 04:01:50 s/@@ Abraham/James Graham/ 04:01:51 .. way tries to help groups w/ accessibility. PF groups look across groups to see how they're performing and we bring to those in field 04:02:49 .. right now we try to provide to w3c as a whole we're not able to do for CG. they don't have opportunity to work w/ us. if you're in a CG and you have suggestions of how we could be better connected, let us know. talk to Janina or Michael C 04:03:06 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #tpac 04:03:24 .. first question had been about entrepreneurial groups, we see groups, doesn't matter small or large, some groups are small and dedicate people and then step up as they can 04:03:36 dka has joined #tpac 04:03:39 Jeff: thanks. we're running out of time. Ask for Alex clarification 04:04:05 Alex: a few issues to be sorted out. one issue is the professional affiliation question. they'd like to be publicly affiliated w/ W3C 04:04:34 .. question of utility and the responsibilities it implies. one issue is we don't have surfficient representation from UK 04:04:35 [Alex makes good point about end user representation in groups] 04:04:37 s/UK/UI 04:05:02 .. could elect people, we don't have strong sense of who represents users or who represents vendors 04:05:27 .. we want both perspectives but we wear too many hats. if you have to have too many things in head, it's difficult 04:06:14 Jeff; this is a larger question. I'd observe that individual membership is professional affiliation, many organizations, closest might be Internet society, they have to be thoughtful about what services they provide 04:06:43 … they have to think about how they support chapters. it would have to be separate than what we do now - what resources, what we offer. 04:07:14 @@: a regulatory policy question. payments. one thing coming up over and over again. what's legal to do in what country. what policy makers do we need to have involved 04:07:21 s/@@/Manu/ 04:07:35 … w3c started to work in mobile. but i don't' see legal and regulatory expertise. we need this 04:07:52 Tomoyuki has joined #tpac 04:08:14 marilyn has joined #tpac 04:08:20 …. people like world bank, we need to have a much tighter dialogue. does no good to have a spec that can't be implemented. is there any suggestion that w3c has for this for web payments or web identity. where should these people be placed 04:09:07 Jeff: great question. the current group we have that most resembles that. closest is TP. we've reached out to regulators, and involved in dialogue but I don't think we've created a repeatable process. we'll need to think about that more 04:09:17 .. this needs to be on agency and I see rigo has come to mic 04:09:40 johnny has joined #tpac 04:10:06 AndyF has joined #tpac 04:10:09 Rigo: the experience from the past, personal application of German minister of interior, how to link passport to commerce. I think getting the in a permanent basis would be difficult. but for workshops, we have pretty good channels into governments 04:10:27 … we can get them into workshops, but binding them to WG would be difficutl 04:10:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html Ian 04:11:01 Tomoyuki1 has joined #tpac 04:11:17 David Ross: ebay/pay pal. some expertise about regulatory for payments would be part of what we do. we have some expertise. we can bring more of this, we suggest get more payment groups to participate in w3c 04:11:30 caroline has joined #tpac 04:11:32 … problems exist for all payment guys. we's like our competitors to participate as well 04:11:51 Jeff: in spring we plan on having a web payments workshop, Paris March 24/25 04:12:02 s/David Ross/Daniel Austin/ 04:12:19 …we want to use it to reach out before getting them to join. if we can also use to bring in legislators that would be great 04:12:35 …thanks to all for your questions and to w3m for addressing them 04:13:03 … the afternoon as in several years will be community breakout sessions. we have several groups in play. Ian will explain what will happen in next few hours 04:13:35 s/pay pal/PayPal/ 04:13:39 Ian: we're doing a raffle and giving away pairs of penguins. put your business card in the box 04:13:47 hayato has joined #tpac 04:13:56 … or your name on a piece of paper. we're not using data for anything except wedding penguins 04:13:57 jeff has joined #tpac 04:14:08 RRSagent, make minutes 04:14:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html koalie 04:14:21 … between now and lunch we want you to surge to front of room and fight for your position for current, limited slots 04:14:28 currently 25 proposed sessions 04:14:31 [setting up breakouts] 04:14:57 … if we run beyond thirty, we can have brawls to set space. we don't have post it notes, we have blank pieces and pens 04:15:25 .. you will write session name and your name. some like to tget their idea in, others wait and we set up a grid 04:15:30 you'll seed th schedule and break out session 04:15:42 explicit request that someone echo the schedule planning here in IRC 04:15:46 in printed program and in tpac wiki there's guidance for good practice for running breakout session 04:16:15 cwilso, the schedule will be reflected in the wiki 04:16:19 eg: explain why there. it lets people decide to stay or not. what you expect to accomplish. use the wiki to take notes 04:16:38 http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013#Session_Grid 04:16:43 … i've added site redesign. make your own irc channel and let us know in the wiki. 04:17:00 then just a notification when the schedule times are set in the wiki 04:17:02 … suggest a scribe, remember not everyone speaks the same language. notes helpful. please end on time 04:17:04 -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas suggestions for TPAC break outs 04:17:24 Eliot has joined #tpac 04:17:29 15 mins at end should give travel time. please try to start and end on time. we'll put up grid on line after it's stabilized. those will be public 04:17:37 Judy: a lot of people can't get to the wiki 04:17:55 adrianba has joined #tpac 04:18:00 -fjh 04:18:06 … some peoples' connections aren't working. some not online 04:18:20 Ian: if there are network problems, apologize. I can project the grid 04:18:24 s/grid/wiki 04:18:42 … if you go to tpac home page there's a link to the wiki. there's a grid w/ titles etc 04:18:44 http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas 04:18:59 no, http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013 04:18:59 … as we do this I invite people to put their sessions in there 04:19:06 http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013#Session_Grid 04:19:26 Ian: status report on wireless? thumbs down on wireless. ask meeting planners to resolve this 04:19:30 … get session on board 04:20:01 naomi has joined #tpac 04:20:38 [scribing ends] 04:21:56 veronica has joined #tpac 04:22:44 Public request that the Music/Web MIDI session make it early 04:25:08 MichaelC has joined #tpac 04:25:33 -Wayne_Carr 04:25:40 johnny has joined #tpac 04:26:12 kurosawa has joined #tpac 04:28:14 kkubota has joined #tpac 04:28:52 kazho_ has joined #tpac 04:33:27 MichaelC has joined #tpac 04:33:56 -Wuzhou_middle 04:34:12 zakim, who is on the phone? 04:34:12 On the phone I see CWilso 04:34:16 cwilso, the midi session is likely to be the first one after lunch FWIW 04:34:16 Yay! 04:34:23 eeeeeeexcellent. 04:34:50 that's in approximately 1.5 hours, correct? 04:35:00 aye 04:35:06 thanks! 04:35:24 -CWilso 04:36:07 johnny has joined #tpac 04:43:42 shh__ has joined #tpac 04:43:52 Ralph_ has joined #tpac 04:47:13 shh___ has joined #tpac 04:50:48 naomi has joined #tpac 04:55:40 ddavis has joined #tpac 04:57:17 masatakayakura has joined #tpac 04:59:29 Ralph__ has joined #tpac 05:00:53 johnny has joined #tpac 05:01:51 johnny_ has joined #tpac 05:04:03 Tomoyuki has joined #tpac 05:07:50 johnny has joined #tpac 05:10:41 chaals has joined #tpac 05:17:02 kazho has joined #tpac 05:21:47 drott has joined #tpac 05:36:40 nkic has joined #tpac 05:41:45 chaals has joined #tpac 05:42:48 dauwhe has joined #tpac 05:43:18 dauwhe_ has joined #tpac 05:44:05 Takahiro has joined #tpac 05:44:06 bgidon has joined #tpac 05:45:45 plinss has joined #tpac 05:46:35 paul has joined #tpac 05:47:49 dauwhe_ has joined 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06:11:21 maria has joined #tpac 06:12:03 rhauck1 has joined #tpac 06:12:24 kurosawa has joined #tpac 06:13:51 and Web Payments' channel is ... 06:13:57 #webpayments 06:14:02 who wooda' thunk 06:14:17 dom has joined #tpac 06:14:22 RRSAgent, make minutes 06:14:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html ArtB 06:14:57 hiroto has joined #tpac 06:14:59 Meeting: Technical Plenary Day 2013 06:15:19 Present+ Boat_Load_of_People 06:15:23 Ralph__ has joined #tpac 06:15:29 RRSAgent, make minutes 06:15:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html ArtB 06:15:34 dbaron_ has joined #tpac 06:17:44 MichaelC has joined #tpac 06:18:59 yohsumi has joined #tpac 06:19:48 Ralph has joined #tpac 06:21:07 kotakagi has joined #tpac 06:21:19 Ian has joined #tpac 06:22:35 emalasky has joined #tpac 06:23:27 emalasky1 has joined #tpac 06:25:10 bgidon has joined #tpac 06:26:32 MarkS has joined #tpac 06:27:18 dbaron_ has joined #tpac 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#tpac 09:36:13 johnny has joined #tpac 09:36:42 MichaelC_ has joined #tpac 09:37:22 csjung_ has joined #tpac 09:37:40 Mark_Vickers has joined #tpac 09:37:46 kazho_ has joined #tpac 09:40:08 Takahiro has joined #tpac 09:40:50 jeff has joined #tpac 09:41:36 dauwhe has joined #tpac 09:42:02 dauwhe_ has joined #tpac 09:42:19 liam has joined #tpac 09:42:27 virginie has joined #tpac 09:42:28 SteveZ has joined #tpac 09:43:24 laurent has joined #tpac 09:43:26 Jirka has joined #tpac 09:43:31 dka has joined #tpac 09:43:35 wjs has joined #tpac 09:43:38 jerome has joined #tpac 09:43:52 jeromie has joined #tpac 09:44:00 chaals has joined #tpac 09:44:26 yosuke has joined #tpac 09:44:41 yosuke has joined #tpac 09:44:45 kiyoshi has joined #tpac 09:44:53 nkic has joined #tpac 09:44:56 a1zu has joined #tpac 09:45:06 MichaelC__ has joined #tpac 09:45:09 shan has joined #tpac 09:45:35 yahui has joined #tpac 09:45:36 [breakout reports in the main room] 09:45:52 nigel has joined #tpac 09:46:23 hisao has joined #tpac 09:46:29 tomohiro has joined #tpac 09:48:19 Youngsun_Ryu has joined #tpac 09:48:23 dsinger has joined #tpac 09:48:38 Ruinan has joined #tpac 09:50:14 yuka_o_ has joined #tpac 09:51:22 dom has joined #tpac 09:52:44 naomi_ has joined #tpac 09:53:24 hiroki has joined #tpac 09:53:27 bgidon has joined #tpac 09:56:18 yo Mohamed 09:56:30 Takahiro_ has joined #tpac 09:56:32 chu has joined #tpac 09:56:46 darobin has joined #tpac 09:56:50 stephane has joined #tpac 09:57:20 <_M_> _M_ has joined #tpac 09:57:36 FYI : security breakout session minutes are available here : http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-security-minutes.html 09:58:46 Alan, they're encrypted :-) 09:58:55 ask the NSA for the decrypted ones 09:59:06 LOL 10:03:02 ddavis has joined #tpac 10:03:46 marie has joined #tpac 10:06:24 plh has joined #tpac 10:07:09 a12u has joined #tpac 10:09:02 Some breakouts minutes already linked from the breakouts grid: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013#Session_Grid 10:10:21 mnot: the next version of HTTP will run only over TLS 10:10:47 rhauck has joined #tpac 10:12:18 not over TLC (true love and care)? 10:13:20 ac has joined #tpac 10:13:34 JonathanJ has joined #tpac 10:13:45 Ralph__ has joined #tpac 10:16:28 RRSagent, make minutes 10:16:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html koalie 10:16:37 kkubota2 has joined #tpac 10:17:02 csjung_ has joined #tpac 10:18:04 johnny_ has joined #tpac 10:18:11 scribenick: koalie 10:18:13 dsinger has joined #tpac 10:19:13 johnny__ has joined #tpac 10:19:33 dauwhe has joined #tpac 10:19:47 laurent has left #tpac 10:20:07 rhauck has joined #tpac 10:23:15 bgidon_ has joined #tpac 10:23:21 kazho has joined #tpac 10:27:43 MichaelC__ has joined #tpac 10:28:52 RRSAgent, bye 10:28:52 I see no action items 15:26:03 RRSAgent has joined #tpac 15:26:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-irc 15:26:09 s/… /... / 15:26:35 naomi has joined #tpac 15:27:24 RRSagent, make minutes 15:27:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html koalie 15:28:12 johnny has joined #tpac 15:28:30 s/Jeff;/Jeff:/G 15:28:59 s/…/.../G 15:29:18 s/..../.../G 15:29:30 RRSagent, make minutes 15:29:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-minutes.html koalie 15:30:01 RRSAgent, bye 15:30:06 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:30:09 RRSAgent, bye 15:30:09 I see no action items