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06:11:00 <Bert> astearns: Is DPUP IG collect product and working reqs? Packaging? Other things than layout?
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06:11:12 <Bert> ivan: Yes, a number of other topics
06:11:27 <Bert> ... mtadata, behavioral adaption.
06:11:43 <Bert> ... packaging & distribution si another bucket.
06:12:05 <Bert> dauwhe_: IDPF does packaging, also.
06:12:51 <Bert> markus: Widows is theme that always comes up. But is typograpy th eonly important thing?
06:13:02 <Bert> ... Missing higher level picture?
06:13:24 <Bert> dauwhe_: Important, yes. E.g., what is a "page"?
06:13:47 <Bert> @@: what is a page, how do get to the next, multiple pages...
06:13:57 <Bert> ... A lot of that is about CSS scope.
06:14:11 <Bert> ivan: Not yet anything going on outside CSS WG.
06:14:26 <Bert> ... DPUB IG will try to understand and collect what publ industry needs.
06:15:00 <Bert> ... When a proposal has gelled, can bcome an HTML extension, e.g.
06:15:25 <Bert> @@@_Opera: We experimented with these things.
06:15:53 <Bert> dauwhe_: How does it intereact with DOM and such.
06:16:17 <Bert> @@@_Opera: We experimented with GCPM spec. Page-overflow.
06:16:33 <Bert> ... Gives you a paginated environment.
06:16:41 <Bert> ... But is still one document.
06:16:51 <astearns> s/@@@_Opera/lbolstad/
06:17:03 <Bert> ... No comcept of "page" as such, which leads to limitations in what you can do with style.
06:17:20 <Bert> markus: And events, right?
06:17:36 <Bert> ivan: That is the kind of experience we need.
06:18:01 <Bert> ... IG is not doing specification work.
06:18:25 <Bert> dauwhe_: Books only one of many use cases.
06:18:43 <Bert> astearns: In Opera demo: are those written down in spec form?
06:18:51 <Bert> lbolstad: Can easily do so
06:19:18 <Bert> markus: Experiment includes higher-level notion of page/pages?
06:19:30 <Bert> lbolstad: Just what we get from layout engine.
06:20:10 <Bert> ... Our impl limited to what can with CSS. Still one document that you navgate within.
06:20:35 <Bert> astearns: GCMP would allow elements to be paged. Does you expreiment fo that?
06:20:45 <Bert> lbolstad: Our previous experiment did that.
06:21:15 <Bert> rossen: Is this session about pages in terms of layout, or app model of pages?
06:21:30 <Bert> ... I worked with epub applications in Windows 8.
06:21:56 <Bert> ... I heard discussion about app model of pages, cross-app naviagation.
06:22:19 <Bert> ... Lot of apps have trouble openg, say the bible, in the middle.
06:22:36 <Bert> ... All kinds of gymnastics to figure out how/where to open.
06:22:46 <Bert> ... Different pbs from layout in CSS.
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06:23:25 <Bert> dauwhe_: My goa is to expose all the differen levels.
06:23:34 <Bert> rossen: Example:
06:23:53 <Bert> ... We started working on CSS regions to paginate content.
06:24:09 <Bert> ... Could build a lot of apps with that that resemble books or magzines.
06:24:20 <Bert> ... Regions is just a primitive for pagination.
06:24:36 <Bert> ... That was a fairly easy model and poeple build paginated apps quickly.
06:25:05 <Bert> ... But now: how do I do open page 300 out of 3000?
06:25:25 <Bert> ... Or: Irotated the device and how do I reposition?
06:25:41 <Bert> ... No good correlation where in the content you are.
06:26:29 <Bert> ... You can get the elements in a regions, but app developer has to represent that.
06:26:44 <Bert> ... Diff application did different things. Some did good job.
06:27:01 <Bert> ... But a stuggle with large amounts of continuous content.
06:27:12 <Bert> ... Layout seems to me to be the easier problem.
06:27:28 <Bert> ivan: You think of an alternative DOM?
06:27:41 <Bert> ... A Node for a page?
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06:29:16 <Bert> astearns: Regions gives that info, what content is in a region. But is a  low-level interface.
06:30:31 <Bert> rossen: UNless you have a content odel that expresses an approximation of pieces, chapters, that expresses the content you are searching for.
06:30:41 <Bert> liam: Not a new problem.
06:30:55 <Bert> ... Mark-up nbased e-book readers have existed for 20 years.
06:31:03 <Bert> ... There are algorithms for doing this.
06:31:15 <Bert> ... Som epbs with interatcion with DOM.
06:31:25 <Bert> ... Careful for loops.
06:32:07 <Bert> ... Resizing font, e.g., is similar to problem with placing footnotes
06:32:13 <Bert> ... But all solvable.
06:32:31 <Bert> ... CSS gives lots of opportunities for such problems.
06:33:03 <Bert> dauwhe_: PAgination depends on many variables controlled by user.
06:33:19 <Bert> ... Trying to predict without actually doing it...
06:33:51 <Bert> ivan: Reasong for this group [DPub IG] is to locate the concepts in various groups.
06:34:07 <Bert> ... Understanding the problem, but what is missing?
06:34:15 <Bert> ... What to do to make your life easier?
06:36:07 <Bert> Bert: Different problems for interactive apps and optimal reading.
06:36:27 <Bert> ivan: Yes, an e-book reader takes time to reformat if you chage the font size.
06:36:33 <Bert> ... But is that a problem?
06:36:58 <Bert> ... Often I can continue reading, even thought the page number changes.
06:37:11 <Bert> mohammed: not really true.
06:37:36 <Bert> ... More a pb of ergonomy.
06:37:49 <Bert> ... How to keep user in his context?
06:38:30 <Bert> ... Publisher can push updates: user reopens the book and it has changed. What do we present to him?
06:38:55 <Bert> liam: Annotations, dog ears, in the margin.
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06:39:16 <Bert> ... Blur disticntion between book and...
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06:39:43 <Bert> ... If you want those annotation to work, yo'll have to put in good mark-up.
06:40:14 <Bert> ... Computer doesn't know what word you were looking at before you changed the szie.
06:40:41 <Bert> mohammed: ... keep the context...
06:41:00 <Bert> liam: But what is behnd the scenes to enable that?
06:41:50 <Bert> dauwhe_: In early days of kindle, just three font sizes, etc... I was tempted to just make 15 different PDFs for all the 15 different layouts possible.
06:42:23 <Bert> mohammed: but how do you then keep track of corrsponance between pages?
06:42:49 <Bert> rossen: When tyou have annotations, users also may want to share them.
06:43:05 <Bert> ... Imagine one user on phone and another on laptp, thus differen tpages.
06:43:13 <Bert> ... Is that a DOM range?
06:43:40 <Bert> ... Having a way to standardize these kinds of ranges or context points.
06:44:13 <astearns> rossen also mentioned sharing an annotation across document versions
06:44:13 <Bert> ... Metadata about where chapters start, allows binary search instead of linear search.
06:44:23 <Bert> ... And even smaller chunks.
06:44:58 <Bert> ivan: Certainly annotation requirements says that this identification problem is hardest to crack.
06:45:15 <Bert> liam: There is prior art, e.g., in TEI.
06:45:35 <Bert> ivan: IDPF has CFI for that, too.
06:46:02 <Bert> astearns: mohammed mentioned reflow: if you have to repaginate,
06:46:24 <Bert> ... as a reader I don't necessarily care if the pagination is started formt he beginning of the doc.
06:46:37 <Bert> ... ONly when I go back, I need to see the earlier pages.
06:47:03 <Bert> @@: structure pf pages can change. It is acceptabel solution for some cases.
06:47:19 <Bert> ... Images may move around, may make it hard to scan through the book.
06:47:27 <Bert> ... But generally OK for a novel.
06:47:43 <Bert> astearns: Some way to go back only to most recent hard page break.
06:48:16 <Bert> liam: Spatai aspects of reading artivel in Scientific American.
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06:48:38 <Bert> ... Research why readers of books remembered better than readers of e-books.
06:48:49 <Bert> ... Had to do with spatial aspects.
06:49:09 <Bert> dauwhe_: Yes, very common: was it twoards the top of the page?
06:49:26 <Bert> ... Pointing to specific location in text.
06:49:58 <Bert> ivan: I thought of metadata for annotation, but interesting that it can also be used for speed.
06:50:39 <Bert> dauwhe_: (Searching content)
06:51:14 <Bert> ... Knowing that a given text was in region 540.
06:51:23 <Bert> astearns: Differnet categories.
06:51:53 <Bert> ... Need page number, need structure for layout; but also if page number doesn't matter and still want paginated experience.
06:52:02 <Bert> ... Two different cases.
06:52:28 <Bert> ... If you don't need the page number, the renderer doesnt' have to do the work.
06:52:58 <Bert> ... If you are searching dor a phrase, you get a page, but without a page number.
06:53:13 <Bert> ivan: But what if you thenn browse back to start?
06:53:38 <Bert> @@: "Don't read backwards!" :-)
06:54:10 <ivan> s/@@/Brady Duga/
06:54:21 <Bert> rossen: We cannot start a Region chain in the middle.
06:54:55 <Bert> ... Starting form one of the paragraphs, we'll start a region chain.
06:55:12 <Bert> ... But i a book you wan to be in the context of the body, etc.
06:55:29 <Bert> ... A CFI to descrive all the hierarchy, your breakpoints,
06:55:44 <Bert> ... then you can layout a small portion, and still be in your context.
06:55:55 <Bert> ... Then you can go backwards and forwards.
06:56:29 <Bert> dauwhe_: That contetx is critical.
06:56:40 <Bert> ... All kinds of style may come from the container.
06:57:01 <Bert> liam: Worked with telephone repair manuals,
06:57:24 <Bert> ... Had to be large and fast. Could not meet all requirements.
06:57:44 <Bert> ... Could not keep all context. Skeleton of top level only.
06:57:58 <Bert> ... Some formatting didn't work, you might not have all of the fornt matter.
06:58:14 <Bert> ... Editors learned to work with this quite easily.
06:59:30 <Bert> dauwhe_: Need to know for styling if a page is left or right.
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07:00:15 <Bert> rossen: searchin if regions already complciated, esp. in more complex magainze-like layout.
07:01:01 <Bert> ivan: Would be good if the experiences mentiond, rossen and lars, came to the IG as well and gave input.
07:01:54 <Bert> ... What do you expereince as missing pieces/
07:02:03 <Bert> rossen: I'll look into it.
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07:43:59 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:43:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-books-minutes.html ivan
07:44:14 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
07:44:29 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
07:44:37 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:44:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-tpac-books-minutes.html ivan
07:44:46 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
07:44:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items