IRC log of dnt on 2013-11-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:48:20 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:48:31 [wseltzer]
trackbot, prepare teleconf
15:48:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:48:35 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TRACK
15:48:35 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:48:36 [trackbot]
Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
15:48:36 [trackbot]
Date: 13 November 2013
16:00:22 [wseltzer]
trackbot, prepare teleconf
16:00:24 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:00:26 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TRACK
16:00:26 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 60 minutes
16:00:27 [trackbot]
Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
16:00:27 [trackbot]
Date: 13 November 2013
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T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
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+ +1.646.654.aaaa
16:56:18 [eberkower]
Zakim, aaaa is eberkower
16:56:18 [Zakim]
+eberkower; got it
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16:56:53 [eberkower]
Zakim, please mute me
16:56:53 [Zakim]
sorry, eberkower, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:58:14 [Zakim]
+ +49.681.387.2.aabb
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16:58:29 [ninja]
zakim, aabb is ninja
16:58:29 [Zakim]
+ninja; got it
16:58:37 [ninja]
zakim, please mute me
16:58:37 [Zakim]
ninja should now be muted
16:58:38 [eberkower]
Zakim, mute me please
16:58:38 [Zakim]
eberkower should now be muted
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16:59:13 [Chris_IAB]
just joined via phone
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17:01:24 [npdoty_]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see eberkower (muted), ninja (muted), Chris_IAB, [CDT], Joanne, RobSherman, kulick, npdoty
17:01:40 [Zakim]
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17:01:58 [npdoty_]
Zakim, who is making noise?
17:02:00 [Walter_webirc]
Zakim, ipcaller is me
17:02:00 [Zakim]
+Walter_webirc; got it
17:02:08 [Zakim]
npdoty_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (27%), [CDT] (9%)
17:02:11 [Zakim]
17:02:17 [justin]
zakim, cdt.a has me
17:02:17 [Zakim]
+justin; got it
17:02:19 [Zakim]
17:02:26 [Zakim]
17:02:34 [npdoty_]
npdoty_ has changed the topic to: Agenda November 13:
17:02:52 [Walter_webirc]
npdoty: I should be muted now
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17:03:29 [justin]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:03:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see eberkower (muted), ninja (muted), Chris_IAB, [CDT], Joanne, RobSherman, kulick, npdoty, Walter_webirc, [CDT.a], Jack_Hobaugh, moneill, [Mozilla]
17:03:32 [Zakim]
[CDT.a] has justin
17:03:44 [GSHans]
zakim, cdt has me
17:03:44 [Zakim]
+GSHans; got it
17:03:44 [sidstamm]
Zakim, Mozilla has sidstamm
17:03:46 [Zakim]
+sidstamm; got it
17:03:49 [Zakim]
17:03:50 [justin]
One more minute . . .
17:03:58 [npdoty]
any volunteers to scribe today?
17:04:18 [Brooks]
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17:04:26 [GSHans]
I can scribe
17:04:27 [npdoty]
regrets+ LeeTien
17:04:39 [npdoty]
scribenick: gshans
17:04:50 [kj]
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17:04:50 [npdoty]
regrets+ dsinger
17:04:53 [Zakim]
17:05:08 [npdoty]
regrets+ SomeTPACFolks
17:05:49 [Zakim]
17:05:58 [Zakim]
17:06:03 [ninja]
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17:06:37 [GSHans]
Justin: CFO on ISSUE-5 and ISSUE-10. Response due next Wed evening (11/20), then goes to chairs. CFO for ISSUE-16 today, extra week built in for that call to respond.
17:06:40 [justin]
17:06:49 [Zakim]
17:07:21 [justin]
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17:08:31 [susanisrael]
zakim, 201723 is susanisrael
17:08:31 [Zakim]
sorry, susanisrael, I do not recognize a party named '201723'
17:09:01 [npdoty]
17:09:04 [GSHans]
Justin: ISSUE-16 and ISSUE-204. Definitions of collect, share, retain, uses, shares, facilitates. Two options that will go to CFO. Difference is definition of collect vs. collect and retain. Do not have strong opinions about which to go with.
17:09:06 [susanisrael]
npdoty, thank you. I thought he might have but wasn't sure.
17:09:11 [Zakim]
17:09:35 [JackHobaugh]
Justin, I did not see any way within the call for objections for Issue 5 and 10 for a WG participant to express whether the resulting definition should be ported into the TPE. Would it be possible to add this to the call for objections?
17:09:45 [GSHans]
npdoty: Are there unreconcilable differences on these two?
17:10:01 [PM3538]
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17:10:35 [npdoty]
thanks, justin, I just didn't know all the views expressed last week.
17:10:48 [fielding]
on no definition
17:10:52 [GSHans]
Justin: Not sure re: ISSUE-16. Jack - Justin thought there was a field on porting over to TPE or not.
17:11:13 [GSHans]
npdoty: on party definition, Q4 is the comment field re: objections to moving.
17:11:22 [GSHans]
npdoty: not on ISSUE-5
17:11:38 [GSHans]
Jack: Thanks, that clarifies.
17:11:50 [npdoty]
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17:12:04 [npdoty]
on issue-10 CfO: If you have an objection to including the party definition or definitions in the TPE document as well as the Compliance document, please describe your objection, with clear and specific reasoning.
17:12:26 [schunter]
17:13:02 [npdoty]
I thought Justin just went over these, on issue 16/204
17:13:21 [fielding]
sorry, wrong link is in the agenda
17:13:33 [WileyS]
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17:13:42 [Brooks]
issue 5 has the wrong link correct?
17:13:42 [Zakim]
17:13:43 [npdoty]
17:13:43 [trackbot]
issue-217 -- Terminology for user action, interaction, and network interaction -- raised
17:13:43 [trackbot]
17:13:44 [GSHans]
schunter: Point #5 on the agenda. Defintions - collect, share, use, facilitate. Two proposals on table. Option 1 defines retain, option 2 does not. CFO will be tonight.
17:13:45 [npdoty]
17:13:45 [trackbot]
issue-228 -- Revise the Network Interaction definition -- raised
17:13:45 [trackbot]
17:13:49 [fielding]
17:13:49 [trackbot]
issue-217 -- Terminology for user action, interaction, and network interaction -- raised
17:13:49 [trackbot]
17:14:16 [schunter] 
17:14:17 [npdoty]
I think the current wiki text we have on that is here:
17:14:49 [fielding]
yes, though I forgot to add my bits for 217 to that page
17:14:51 [Zakim]
17:14:55 [justin]
npdoty, can you change the linked agenda to
17:15:10 [npdoty]
npdoty has changed the topic to: agenda, November 13:
17:15:34 [WileyS]
Correct - Balance is key
17:15:34 [kulick]
17:15:36 [npdoty]
fielding, can you do that this week? or merge with Jack's language if possible?
17:15:37 [npdoty]
17:15:56 [justin]
Thanks. The link for network transaction is wrong in the agenda. The correect link is
17:16:05 [Zakim]
17:16:50 [GSHans]
Schunter: Issue 151: TO what extent user agent should be required to support user granted exception API. Should we mandate all user agents support exception API? Should site be able to engage with dialogue with user re: site-wide exception?
17:16:51 [schunter]
17:16:56 [Brooks]
17:16:59 [schunter]
ack ku
17:16:59 [npdoty]
17:17:37 [Zakim]
17:17:44 [GSHans]
kulick: the fact that browser will retain DNT signal persistently. Should be some balanced mechanism on other end for exception.
17:17:50 [WileyS]
IE10 (and 11) already implemented this - it's not difficult
17:17:51 [schunter]
ack Broo
17:18:21 [GSHans]
Brooks: scope of compliance doc is to preference expression mechanisms to allow or limit tracking. can we do compliance doc correctly unless required for user granted exceptions in TPE
17:18:29 [dwainberg]
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17:19:00 [GSHans]
Brooks: of the compliance doc, part of that reflects allowing tracking. If TPE doesn't have mechanisms up to allow tracking, does that require rewriting the scope of the compliance doc?
17:19:15 [moneill2]
I get doc not found to that 151 link
17:19:51 [GSHans]
schunter: So both sides should be in TPE and in the compliance spec. So there should be a mechanism for user granted exceptions in TPE.
17:19:51 [Zakim]
17:19:53 [Chapell]
I believe that Brooks is implicitly refering to our charter: The mission of the Tracking Protection Working Group, part of the Privacy Activity, is to improve user privacy and user control by defining mechanisms for expressing user preferences around Web tracking and for blocking or allowing Web tracking elements.
17:19:56 [schunter]
ack np
17:19:56 [GSHans]
Brooks: if you don't provide it, you can't claim it.
17:20:54 [kulick]
17:20:56 [GSHans]
npdoty: do we need changes to the text? nothing says optional. We can possibly go forward with the current text.
17:21:14 [kulick]
nick, what do you mean by optional?
17:21:40 [npdoty]
although we did have an action open on dsinger who wanted to explicitly note this API as optional (or something similar)
17:21:41 [WileyS]
Exceptions are mandatory - otherwise don't implement DNT
17:21:54 [WileyS]
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17:22:16 [schunter]
17:22:17 [npdoty]
17:22:17 [GSHans]
schunter: TPE is a range of functionalities that exist, but not all clients have to implement all pieces - unless an element is mandatory. Must determine what needs to be required.
17:22:53 [GSHans]
kulick: having to have browsers support this is optional, but we should have this as a "must" - otherwise there's not sufficient balance.
17:23:34 [WileyS]
"Should" is not acceptable here. For v1, if you can't implement, then don't.
17:23:41 [WileyS]
17:23:42 [GSHans]
schunter: one proposal is the "should" should apply. "Should" means implement if technically possible.
17:23:43 [kulick]
17:23:43 [WileyS]
17:23:59 [Zakim]
17:24:01 [Chris_IAB]
17:24:21 [moneill2]
does anybody object to MUST?
17:24:26 [johnsimpson]
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17:24:37 [WileyS]
No one that's part of the working group now objects to MUST
17:24:40 [schunter]
17:24:44 [schunter]
ack b
17:24:48 [justin]
ack kul
17:24:51 [fielding]
if we have the API and it isn't mandatory, then its implementation status must be discoverable
17:25:12 [fielding]
otherwise, we might as well not have the API and stick with cookies
17:25:16 [GSHans]
Kulick: if you can support storing a DNT signal, you should be able to support storing exceptions.
17:25:19 [npdoty]
WileyS, we have an open action item on dsinger (part of the WG, but sent regrets for today's call) with an alternative proposal
17:25:47 [schunter]
17:25:49 [GSHans]
schunter; could be a few corner cases where it's not feasible.
17:25:52 [schunter]
ack np
17:25:53 [WileyS]
We'll see if he follows-through now. If I'm able to convince him to not write an alternative can we have "MUST" stand?
17:26:07 [GSHans]
kulick: then text should be clear to explain that context for an exception.
17:26:47 [GSHans]
npdoty: as it is, it would be mandatory.
17:26:47 [schunter]
"SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course."
17:26:54 [Zakim]
17:26:57 [npdoty]
ack WileyS
17:26:58 [schunter]
"MUST This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the definition is an absolute requirement of the specification."
17:27:34 [johnsimpson]
17:27:39 [npdoty]
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17:27:46 [johnsimpson]
Came late. I don't think it should be a must
17:27:55 [schunter]
17:28:08 [kulick]
John, why don't you feel it's a must?
17:28:10 [npdoty]
I don't think non-normative text with unenforceable normative requirements for non-compliant implementers will be useful
17:28:13 [GSHans]
WileyS: Could add some non-normative text. If at this time you can't implement exceptions, you shouldn't implement the standard. dsinger was the last person who felt the opposite way.
17:28:16 [schunter]
ack Chris_IAB
17:28:20 [johnsimpson]
17:28:51 [johnsimpson]
17:28:54 [kulick]
whoops, typo... John, why don't you feel it shouldn't be a must?
17:28:54 [GSHans]
Chris_IAB: Also supportive of the "Must". If we have an API and it's mandatory, its implementation status should be discoverable.
17:28:58 [npdoty]
+1, I think Last Call is a good time to get more implementation experience on this
17:29:05 [schunter]
17:29:19 [JackHobaugh]
Also supportive of MUST.
17:29:34 [WileyS]
17:29:34 [trackbot]
Issue-151 -- User Agent Requirement: Be able to handle an exception request -- open
17:29:34 [trackbot]
17:29:35 [kulick]
17:29:44 [npdoty]
17:30:03 [npdoty]
there is no separate text requirement, it's just part of the spec
17:30:48 [Chris_IAB]
Matthias, we are all on the privacy side
17:31:11 [GSHans]
schunter: a MUST could be used to undermine DNT signals, but would better reflect balance.
17:31:37 [schunter]
17:32:30 [Chris_IAB]
Looks like most people on the call/IRC support "Must"-- should we take a straw poll?
17:32:33 [npdoty]
17:32:43 [Zakim]
17:33:05 [kulick]
17:33:18 [Chris_IAB]
Yes, John, about the USER, not the user agent (without the user's intent)
17:33:20 [WileyS]
John, Not complex - IE already implemented.
17:33:21 [Brooks]
17:33:23 [Chris_IAB]
that's the entire point here
17:33:28 [GSHans]
Johnsimpson: should be completely optional. Sending the DNT message, but dialogue should be optional.
17:33:45 [Chris_IAB]
this is not complex
17:33:54 [WileyS]
17:33:56 [Chris_IAB]
there is nothing technically complex here
17:33:58 [WileyS]
17:34:01 [Brooks]
or he wants to say its okay to track
17:35:09 [WileyS]
This is a conversation - there should be EQUAL and BALANCED opportunity for a Server to request and record an exception.
17:35:37 [GSHans]
Schunter: if site cannot honor preference, it stops the dialogue. what would the alternative be?
17:35:43 [WileyS]
Doesn't appear John is on IRC...
17:35:59 [npdoty]
I think the question is whether we would define an API or if sites would rely on out-of-band, cookie-stored exceptions
17:36:07 [GSHans]
Johnsimpson: if the site cannot honor it, the site isn't compliant.
17:36:11 [npdoty]
17:36:14 [WileyS]
Nick, not parity in persistence
17:36:16 [Chris_IAB]
how would the user know John?
17:36:45 [npdoty]
WileyS, agree, which is why I have advocated for and worked hard on writing this API; I'm just explaining what the options are that we're considering
17:37:12 [GSHans]
schunter: reject signal would lead to what?
17:37:14 [WileyS]
Anyone with any knowledge of technical standards understands there needs to be bi-directional communication for a standard to be complete.
17:37:19 [moneill2]
17:37:27 [WileyS]
One way communication doesn't work
17:37:42 [GSHans]
johnsimpson: so what happens without being convinced?
17:37:44 [Chris_IAB]
this is not a lot of extra engineering… really
17:37:44 [johnsimpson]
17:37:48 [kulick]
so that you dont have to go thru the request and response flow over and over again
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17:38:22 [schunter]
17:38:26 [npdoty]
WileyS, I'm not sure we need to make any speculation about people with knowledge or not of technical standards; fielding, who we tend to think has some experience, has expressed doubts about the API for example
17:38:32 [schunter]
ack n
17:39:12 [WileyS]
Nick, he's expressed doubt on the exceptions portion of the protocol but has continued to support a response from Servers (at least I think so - did I capture that correctly Roy???)
17:39:17 [justin]
Fortunately, this is Week 0 --- glad to see good substantive discussion early on this.
17:39:22 [GSHans]
npdoty: concrete steps forward. Followup with David Singer, and maybe John can provide alternative text that would discuss a concrete alternate.
17:39:24 [justin]
17:39:25 [johnsimpson]
17:39:25 [justin]
ack k
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17:40:01 [Brooks]
17:40:14 [Zakim]
17:40:17 [Brooks]
17:40:55 [GSHans]
kulick: exceptions should have persistence. site will want to have storage for exceptions so as not continually ask.
17:41:20 [ninja]
I think it's valid to ask about devices that won't be able to provide such a balanced dialogue. I have a hard time imagining exception requests on a smart watch
17:42:24 [schunter]
17:42:27 [schunter]
ack mon
17:42:29 [GSHans]
schunter: usability is a valid question w/regard to implementation
17:42:29 [npdoty]
johnsimpson, do you want to provide alternative text? would you be interested in talking with David Singer about a potential "SHOULD" text?
17:43:13 [WileyS]
Ninja, as an owner of 2 smart watches - they have fairly complex UIs and could handle an exception request through the attached smartphone or even within their own UI (more complex things happening today)
17:43:35 [GSHans]
moneill: what a site should do should be the same as for javascript. don't think it's a big move.
17:44:17 [WileyS]
Suggested path forward - maintain a MUST for now (current text) and if others feel strongly they can provide alternate text
17:44:31 [WileyS]
Matthias, current text already has a MUST
17:44:54 [Chris_IAB]
here we are again… the working group is going to divide, because some will let perfection be the enemy of good. There are folks on the phone who want this to support dog collars, watches and refrigerators, at the peril of an industry implementable spec. In that scenario, most users lose. Guys, these are EDGE CASES. There will always be edge cases.
17:45:28 [npdoty]
WileyS, ninja -- the exceptions UI is on the site to get informed consent; that may be harder for sites on very small screens, but could still be possible
17:45:33 [schunter]
17:46:06 [npdoty]
by when are we requesting alternative text proposals?
17:46:17 [johnsimpson]
Nick, Glad to talk work with David Singer
17:46:24 [npdoty]
thanks, johnsimpson.
17:46:36 [npdoty]
initial draft text proposals by next week
17:46:39 [GSHans]
schunter: populate wiki for next week, with alternative texts. can discuss concrete text proposals next week. multiple feedback mechanisms is a feature, not a bug. Initial draft text proposals by next week.
17:46:39 [justin]
Yes, call next week.
17:46:42 [kulick]
it's the week after
17:46:53 [Chris_IAB]
Mattias, we are envious of ALL your European holidays… let us have a few, ok :)
17:46:59 [justin]
We don't have *that* many holidays in 'murica.
17:47:20 [schunter]
17:47:20 [johnsimpson]
Where does text exist now?
17:47:20 [Chris_IAB]
you like to eat :)
17:47:22 [justin]
Also, schunter, here is the wiki for network transaction
17:47:46 [npdoty]
Topic: Network Interaction
17:48:05 [GSHans]
schunter: back to Issue-5.
17:48:21 [fielding]
I still have a TO DO to update that page with a definition from issue-217
17:48:26 [npdoty]
johnsimpson, on issue-151, the existing text is the current draft where the JavaScript Exceptions API is listed, like any other section
17:49:05 [moneill2]
17:49:40 [schunter]
17:49:45 [schunter]
ack mo
17:49:45 [GSHans]
schunter: concerned raised by david singer - concerns re: persistence network interaction.
17:50:01 [WileyS]
I need to leave now...
17:50:02 [npdoty]
q+ fielding to give an update on his alternative
17:50:08 [Zakim]
17:50:41 [justin]
17:50:41 [GSHans]
moneill: network interaction is broader - why do we need it at this point?
17:50:59 [GSHans]
schunter: not sure if there is an accidental inconsistency, but no need to define extraneous term
17:51:01 [npdoty]
I think it's important to "collect" and "retain" definitions which talk about beyond a network interaction
17:51:02 [schunter]
ack f
17:51:02 [Zakim]
fielding, you wanted to give an update on his alternative
17:51:05 [kulick]
+1 if it's not referenced elsewhere
17:51:40 [GSHans]
fielding: altnerative text discussed last week was the original comments made a couple months ago re: network interaction being vague.
17:51:52 [GSHans]
schunter: other alternative proposal exists?
17:51:56 [GSHans]
fielding: yes
17:52:02 [GSHans]
schunter: major difference is...?
17:53:13 [GSHans]
fielding: june draft had network transactions - network interaction (request/response pair or similar in HTTP) and mixed with set of requests starting from user's action. makes totally different contexts into one. Most of the rest of the use assumes single request/response pair. intention was to provide separate definitions for three different actions - set of actions, user generated action. single pair action.
17:53:20 [schunter]
Def tracking version (B) contains "network transaction is complete".
17:53:31 [GSHans]
schunter: chairs will check to see that definition is required.
17:53:38 [npdoty]
and then a separate question from dsinger on whether the request/response pair correctly handles long-lived connections
17:53:48 [npdoty]
it's in the collect/retain definitions
17:54:00 [GSHans]
fielding: it was being used in definition of tracking from david singer. also being used in definition of collection.
17:54:06 [moneill2]
17:54:15 [npdoty]
"A party collects data received in a network interaction if it retains that data after the network interaction is complete."
17:54:42 [GSHans]
fieldign: deadline moved to next week?
17:55:14 [npdoty]
fielding, you can provide your update today? if we don't have any others, then I expect we're good to go
17:55:17 [WaltMichel]
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17:55:24 [GSHans]
schunter: yes, one more week.
17:56:11 [npdoty]
so we're asking for any alternative proposals on issue-217/228 by next week, when we'll discuss and see if we need CfO or have consensus
17:56:34 [Zakim]
17:56:36 [Zakim]
17:56:41 [fielding]
17:56:50 [Zakim]
17:56:51 [Zakim]
17:56:51 [Zakim]
17:56:52 [Zakim]
17:56:52 [Zakim]
17:56:53 [Zakim]
17:56:53 [Zakim]
17:56:53 [Zakim]
17:56:54 [npdoty]
call next week at the usual time. no call the following week (day before thanksgiving)
17:56:54 [Zakim]
17:56:54 [Zakim]
17:56:54 [Zakim]
17:56:57 [Zakim]
17:57:02 [johnsimpson]
johnsimpson has left #dnt
17:57:02 [Zakim]
17:57:04 [Zakim]
17:57:05 [Zakim]
17:57:08 [Zakim]
17:57:08 [npdoty]
Zakim, list attendees
17:57:10 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.646.654.aaaa, eberkower, +49.681.387.2.aabb, ninja, Chris_IAB, Joanne, RobSherman, kulick, npdoty, Walter_webirc, justin, Jack_Hobaugh,
17:57:10 [Zakim]
... moneill, GSHans, sidstamm, Fielding, Brooks, Chapell, schunter, hefferjr, Susan_Israel, [FTC], David_MacMillan, Peder_Magee, WileyS, johnsimpson, WaltMichel
17:57:17 [Zakim]
17:57:20 [npdoty]
chair: justin, schunter
17:57:27 [npdoty]
rrsagent, please draft the minutes
17:57:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate npdoty
17:57:55 [Zakim]
17:57:56 [Zakim]
T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has ended
17:57:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.646.654.aaaa, eberkower, +49.681.387.2.aabb, ninja, Chris_IAB, Joanne, RobSherman, kulick, npdoty, Walter_webirc, justin, Jack_Hobaugh, moneill, GSHans, sidstamm,
17:57:56 [Zakim]
... Fielding, Brooks, Chapell, schunter, hefferjr, Susan_Israel, [FTC], David_MacMillan, Peder_Magee, WileyS, johnsimpson, WaltMichel
17:59:06 [npdoty]
rrsagent, bye
17:59:06 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items