00:57:50 RRSAgent has joined #webapps 00:57:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-irc 00:58:02 RRSAgent, this log will span midnight 00:58:02 I'm logging. I don't understand 'this log will span midnight', ArtB. Try /msg RRSAgent help 00:58:12 Meeting: WebApps F2F Meeting @ TPAC 2013 00:58:33 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2013Meeting#Agenda_Tuesday_November_12 00:58:42 Chair: Art, Chaals 00:58:47 ScribeNick: ArtB 00:58:50 Scribe: Art 00:59:27 cwdoh has joined #webapps 01:03:46 chaals has joined #webapps 01:05:12 kurosawa has joined #webapps 01:05:26 cwdoh has joined #webapps 01:05:55 tobie has joined #webapps 01:05:57 cwdoh has joined #webapps 01:06:28 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 01:06:45 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 01:07:15 xiaoqian has joined #webapps 01:07:26 Present+ Arnaud_Braud 01:09:35 plh has joined #webapps 01:09:58 Present+ Art_Barstow, Charles_Nevile, Travis_Leithead, Adrian_Bateman, Eliot_Graff, Xiaoqian_Wu, Gary_Kacmarcik 01:10:05 RRSAgent, make log Public 01:10:10 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:10:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 01:10:12 wyh has joined #webapps 01:11:05 zakim, call shenzhen 01:11:05 ok, ArtB; the call is being made 01:11:06 IA_WebApps()7:00PM has now started 01:11:08 +Shenzhen 01:11:24 mete has left #webapps 01:11:26 kawai has joined #webapps 01:11:26 hoyang has joined #webapps 01:11:41 jhmoon has joined #webapps 01:11:50 Dayang has joined #webapps 01:12:29 Present+ Adam_Boyet, Ryosuke_Niwa 01:13:13 a12u has joined #webapps 01:14:11 seo has joined #webapps 01:14:27 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 01:16:59 zakim, who's here? 01:16:59 On the phone I see Shenzhen 01:17:00 On IRC I see lmcliste_, seo, a12u, Dayang, jhmoon, hoyang, kawai, wyh, plh, xiaoqian, ijongcheol, cwdoh, tobie, kurosawa, RRSAgent, edoyle, Zakim, byungjung, johnny, dom, Lachy, 01:17:00 ... ArtB, Arno, glenn, Marcus_Altman___, Takahiro_, sgalineau, darobin 01:17:04 marcosc has joined #webapps 01:17:08 jungkees_ has joined #webapps 01:17:14 aboyet has joined #webapps 01:17:22 Present+ Jungkee_Song 01:17:26 hoyang has left #webapps 01:17:27 hoyang has joined #webapps 01:17:52 hoyang has left #webapps 01:17:54 hoyang has joined #webapps 01:17:55 csjung has joined #webapps 01:18:04 rniwa has joined #webapps 01:18:06 hoyang has left #webapps 01:18:08 hoyang has joined #webapps 01:18:10 Present+ Takayoshi_Kochi 01:18:20 hoyang has left #webapps 01:18:43 Topic: Admin, Agenda Setting 01:19:46 yang has joined #webapps 01:20:01 AB: this morning we will talk about Web Components 01:20:02 Toshiya has joined #webapps 01:20:10 … Dominic will join us from Mtn View 01:20:32 s/Dominic will join us/Dimitri will join us/ 01:20:40 … and Dominc from Tokyo 01:21:04 … After the morning break we will talk about Testing and Interop 01:21:06 mizuman has joined #webapps 01:21:12 Present+ Ted_OConnor 01:21:33 AB: we will start Web Components @ 09:30 01:21:39 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:21:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 01:22:19 kennyluck has joined #webapps 01:22:29 Present+ Erika_Doyle_Navara 01:22:46 kennyluck has joined #webapps 01:23:48 zqzhang__ has joined #webapps 01:23:58 Present+ Jonas_Sicking 01:24:55 minami has joined #webapps 01:25:42 johnny has joined #webapps 01:28:05 jehoochen_ has joined #webapps 01:28:15 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 01:29:09 johnny_ has joined #webapps 01:29:28 Eliot has joined #webapps 01:32:09 kochix has joined #webapps 01:32:35 csjung_ has joined #webapps 01:33:10 csjung_ has left #webapps 01:33:21 csjung_ has joined #webapps 01:34:13 Zeke has joined #webapps 01:34:30 trying... 01:35:49 naka has joined #webapps 01:36:06 adrianba has joined #webapps 01:36:22 Travis has joined #webapps 01:36:23 zakim, code? 01:36:23 the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), adrianba 01:36:33 Scribe: Travis 01:36:37 Scribenick: Travis 01:36:38 denis has joined #webapps 01:37:14 jinsh has joined #webapps 01:37:31 zakim, room for 5? 01:37:33 ok, denis; conference Team_(webapps)01:37Z scheduled with code 26635 (CONF5) for 60 minutes until 0237Z 01:38:12 Topic: Technical Difficulties... 01:38:12 denis, how do we get the Shenzhen conf room to attach to this new bridge? 01:38:17 + +1.650.397.aaaa 01:38:48 zakim, aaaa is dglazkov 01:38:48 +dglazkov; got it 01:38:55 hoyang has joined #webapps 01:39:00 Topic: Web Components 01:39:46 nkic has joined #webapps 01:39:53 Zakim, +1.650 is dglazkov 01:39:53 sorry, Travis, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650' 01:40:08 Zakim, 1.650.397.aaaa is dglazkov 01:40:08 sorry, Travis, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.397.aaaa' 01:40:12 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 01:40:15 zakim, who's on the phone? 01:40:15 On the phone I see Shenzhen, dglazkov 01:40:54 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0042.html 01:41:03 ArtB: Please take a minute or two to give us a status update 01:41:20 dglazkov: Things are mostly unchanged. 01:41:23 chen has joined #webapps 01:41:36 naka_ has joined #webapps 01:41:45 ... custom elements have made pretty good progress--kinks worked out. 01:41:57 ... next step is a CR-ready doc. 01:42:21 ... the basics are there, everything else is additive. 01:42:39 JonathanJ1 has joined #webapps 01:42:51 dennisdmac has joined #webapps 01:43:00 ... Shadow DOM keeps going on--perhaps this year it can get to completion 01:43:06 ... custom elements may provide something that is simple and good. 01:43:33 jjj has joined #webapps 01:43:34 dong has joined #webapps 01:43:41 ... Shadow DOM has been taking over by ???, who is aligning with DOM4 01:43:46 ... also switching it to ReSpec 01:44:20 ... I'm focusing on custom elements. 01:44:39 jehoochen__ has joined #webapps 01:44:45 glenn has joined #webapps 01:45:07 s/taking over by???/taking over by mailto:hayato@google.com/ 01:46:29 Qian has joined #webapps 01:46:39 glenn has joined #webapps 01:46:46 ArtB: Switching over to ryosuki 01:46:50 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:46:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith 01:47:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0418.html -> Ryosuke's email 01:47:29 Ryosuki: Highlights key points from email. 01:47:49 dglazkov: Reviewed the email today, and want to address each point, time might be short. 01:48:29 ... sounds like you have the right motivation, but cutting out some pieces that we care about to. We want to build something that works in both cases: same origin and cross-origin. 01:48:49 Ryosuki: we think the current design makes cross-origin use cases much harder. 01:49:13 dglazkov: I think there are ways to do it (via Imports) 01:49:19 Travis: s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/ 01:49:32 ... I think you're looking for encapsulation around shadow dom 01:49:45 jjj has joined #webapps 01:49:58 ... mozilla researchers came up with an elegant solutions for +1 buttons with trusted/untrusted code. 01:50:13 ... was hoping we'd taken everything we wrote down and make something good out of it. 01:50:27 Ryosuki: our concern is with the specs going to last call. 01:50:51 dglazkov: There is no changes to custom elements--these specs are all de-coupled. 01:51:16 ... I responded to your proposal, and there is one thing I don't think we should do 01:51:26 ... the callback proposal. 01:51:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0436.html -> Dimitri's reply to Ryosuke 01:52:07 richt has joined #webapps 01:52:22 Ryosuki: Our concern is more about the HTML Imports; document.register, seems fine-no objections. 01:52:38 dglazkov: This spec needs to cook a lot more. 01:53:20 Ryosuki: let's chat about html imports 01:53:47 Jonas: I have the same concern about how this runs script 01:54:17 ... same concern as apple, that imports run scripts in importing docuement. Seems like same mistake with script tags 01:54:20 ... it's security issue, 01:54:34 ... but bigger problem is bad comm protocol. 01:54:39 naka has joined #webapps 01:55:00 ... this the impetus for ES6 modules pattern. We should reuse some of these ideas in Html imprts. 01:55:12 dglazkov: You should raise this concern 01:56:17 dglazkov: please raise the concern on the mailing list 01:56:27 ... there there be dragons. 01:56:29 richt_ has joined #webapps 01:56:49 ... the polymer folks were starting to work on this, so they'll have more expertise. 01:57:02 ... I can set general outcome expectations 01:57:18 ... imports in same origin--originally we didn't want to run script at all. 01:57:25 ... at first imports was like template only 01:57:42 ... then it's changed. 01:57:56 ... we a providing a good solution to a tricky problem 01:58:29 Ryosuki: we're open to the idea of accessing global doc in imported doc. 01:58:33 ... for same origin of course. 01:58:52 ... the imported doc can execute any script by default doesn't play with x-origin case. 01:59:01 s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/ 01:59:12 ... with same origin component, you could use x-origin component with having to completely change the way it behaves. 01:59:14 glenn has joined #webapps 01:59:19 johnny has joined #webapps 01:59:28 q+ 01:59:30 dglazkov: I don't have a ready solution. Need to outline how to address it. 01:59:39 Present+ Alex_Russell 01:59:57 ... with imports, you can add other imports (same or x-origin) 02:00:01 ... we have some ideas. 02:00:24 dglazkov: generally problem with imports... 02:00:55 mizuman has joined #webapps 02:01:17 ... version management was an issue for bootstrap people. 02:01:41 ... I could do so much more--provide stylesheets for the document via imports. 02:01:42 ... etc. 02:01:56 mizuman has joined #webapps 02:02:02 ... I could bring in all the scaffolding... 02:02:26 ... as long as we provide a solution to these guys [bootstrap] then I'll be happy. 02:02:47 slightlyoff: history context: 02:03:00 ... imports work today unifies cross-and-same origin imports. 02:03:02 ... they are the same 02:03:06 ... just like script include 02:03:10 ... and it can do what it likes. 02:03:13 q- slightlyoff 02:03:16 ... this is how the web works. 02:03:21 ... this is how Alex has a job. 02:03:48 ... we've thought about how web component system can create a security barrier. 02:04:00 ... layout and script boundaries 02:04:13 ... basically need what iframes offer. 02:04:21 ... I think we can solve this orthogonally. 02:04:30 ... shouldn't block web components. 02:04:48 ... if we can decompose the essense of iframe separation, we likely can integrate a solution 02:04:51 note that I'm not arguing that iframes are the answer 02:05:15 ryosuki: we thought about using seamless iframe for a solution 02:05:26 ... except that with a lot of them... 02:05:40 cabanier has joined #webapps 02:05:43 ... there are multiple (20-30 iframes) 02:05:48 ... not a scalable solution. 02:06:06 ... with separate solutions for same origin and cross-origin 02:06:10 mete has joined #webapps 02:06:14 ... this is bad, we want one solution for both 02:06:29 hober: to echo jonas 02:06:33 s/ryosuki/ryosuke/g 02:06:39 ... we are leaning lessons doing modules 02:06:52 glenn_ has joined #webapps 02:06:56 ... (from modules) 02:06:56 s/Ryosuki/Ryosuke/g 02:07:09 naka has joined #webapps 02:07:10 slightlyoff: I support the idea/goal 02:07:17 ... yes, iframes aren't scalable 02:07:27 s/leaning/learning/g 02:07:28 ... mutual auth wrt global access seems reasonable 02:07:40 ... we don't have ES6 modules yet. 02:07:55 ... so it seems premature to design a system before this. 02:08:14 ... I support the goals, etc., but we should revisit after we have ES6 modules 02:08:22 Arno_ has joined #webapps 02:08:27 jonas: html imports are only in one browser 02:08:48 slightlyoff: seems like an alignment with modules, so we should work on the one before the other. 02:08:59 hober: no reason to gate one on the other, they both should just proceed. 02:09:04 slightlyoff: I would want them ordered. 02:09:17 s/just proceed/proceed together/ 02:09:27 taocai has joined #webapps 02:09:29 ryusuke: we would like ES6 module + imports to be consistent with each other. 02:09:39 ... I don't think we need to fully wait for one to wait on the other. 02:09:44 slightlyoff: Yep. Agree 02:10:08 ... TC39 process produces a completely integrated spec draft, after which it takes a little while to get to "rec" 02:10:22 expanding on that: as we work on both, we find and fix incompatibilities. no one is proposing that the platform should have incompatibles mechanism 02:10:25 ... something closer to CR may be approximately early next year. 02:10:32 ... I don't want to get too far ahead of this. 02:11:05 ... we should consider imports with modules together. 02:11:08 marcosc has joined #webapps 02:11:15 ... let's avoid crazy vortexes. 02:11:28 dglazkov: +1 on imports + module consistency 02:11:33 hober: violent agreement. 02:12:02 ryosuke: our big concern was if html imports went forward today, we have big concerns with x-origin use cases. 02:12:17 ... if things slow down, then we can make sure this is done right. 02:12:33 dglazkov: We need to figure out what those x-origin issues are, merge them, and move forward. 02:12:49 ... ryosuke: please drive this! 02:13:13 jonas: I think module discussion and x-origin are unrelated 02:13:33 so the other analogs are workers 02:13:40 and we don't have workers that have renderers 02:13:45 ... want to figure out the x-origin story. Seems hard. 02:14:07 ... whatever we create may seem a lot like iframes, or use a lot of the same primitives 02:14:13 so if we had a RenderWorker that had the ability to have some sort of DOM view to it, that'd be workable, but again, we don't have that infrastructure 02:14:19 ... dosen't seem like a blocker (to me). 02:15:10 dglazkov: Want to write down this proposal. 02:15:19 ... sync with web app sec. 02:15:31 ... should start looking at x-origin use cases. 02:15:57 ryosuke: new topic (slighty)--templates 02:16:06 ... chatted with rafael, etc. 02:16:34 ... want to do mustache syntax in tempates. 02:16:57 dglazkov: Seems just outside my scope.... may need to work with rafael. 02:17:10 s/tempates/templates/ 02:17:32 glenn has joined #webapps 02:17:41 hober: You're comfortable addressing mustache syntax in templates? 02:17:52 dglazkov: Yes, YES, YES!!! 02:17:56 cabanier1 has joined #webapps 02:17:57 ... very comfortable. 02:18:45 dglazkov: I suspect that we'll hear that there isn't one way to do this 02:18:55 ... (it'll be hard to land on "the right one") 02:19:05 hober: not married to the double {{ 02:19:17 ryosuki: that's all 02:19:37 Chaals: no further questions.. 02:19:39 ? 02:19:51 dglazkov: Keep up the good work 02:19:57 -dglazkov 02:20:28 dglazkov: thanks! 02:20:29 Travis: Microsoft hasn't looked in depth at this yet. 02:20:49 -Shenzhen 02:20:51 IA_WebApps()7:00PM has ended 02:20:51 Attendees were Shenzhen, +1.650.397.aaaa, dglazkov 02:21:06 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:21:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 02:22:50 Present+ Dimitr_Glazkov(phone) 02:22:58 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:22:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 02:23:11 darobin has joined #webapps 02:23:19 csjung_ has joined #webapps 02:25:39 cwdoh has joined #webapps 02:25:43 Toshiya has joined #webapps 02:26:53 Toshiya_ has joined #webapps 02:29:37 johnny has joined #webapps 02:32:39 tobie has joined #webapps 02:35:48 Toshiya has joined #webapps 02:37:25 mete has left #webapps 02:38:27 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 02:39:58 denis has joined #webapps 02:43:01 Zeke has joined #webapps 02:46:36 Toshiya has joined #webapps 02:47:55 Qian has joined #webapps 02:48:32 csjung_ has joined #webapps 02:49:34 Takahiro has joined #webapps 02:49:34 csjung has joined #webapps 02:51:34 Max_ has joined #webapps 02:53:20 jjj_ has joined #webapps 02:55:24 trackbot has joined #webapps 02:56:56 mizuman has joined #webapps 02:59:44 johnny_ has joined #webapps 03:00:05 darobin has joined #webapps 03:01:38 kurosawa has joined #webapps 03:01:43 lgombos has joined #webapps 03:02:33 hoyang has joined #webapps 03:05:24 dennisdmac has joined #webapps 03:05:37 marcosc has joined #webapps 03:07:46 nsakai2_ has joined #webapps 03:08:17 edoyle has joined #webapps 03:08:27 myakura has joined #webapps 03:09:19 aboyet has joined #webapps 03:10:18 scribenick: aboyet 03:10:32 Scribe+ Adam 03:10:39 chen has joined #webapps 03:10:45 TOPIC: Test Interopt 03:11:13 artb: wanted to go through specs and what it's going to take to get to next steps 03:11:24 .. first one IndexDB 03:11:30 AndroUser has joined #webapps 03:11:47 … last college about 6 months ago, Alex agreed test facilitor for that spec 03:11:53 mw2 has joined #webapps 03:12:12 … have ~7 requests for IDB and not seemed to be reviewed yet, anybody give status of this? 03:12:57 adrianba: believe the work alex has been doing is moved away from IDB, we'd be happy with help on it 03:13:16 ACTION: barstow find another Test Facilitator for IDB spec 03:13:17 Created ACTION-704 - Find another test facilitator for idb spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-19]. 03:13:18 artb: will record action to find test person 03:13:43 …. can anybody here to volunteer to help with the IDB testing effort ? 03:13:56 jeroskim has joined #webapps 03:14:03 … curious what mizilla's level of interest is for this 03:14:16 s/mizilla/Mozilla/ 03:14:16 … need to review PRs for IDB as well 03:14:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-testsuite/2013Oct/0013.html -> IDB Pull Requests for tests 03:14:37 chaals has joined #webapps 03:14:54 … 4 diff pull request during test web forward paris event 03:15:24 …. first step for interop is to try to agree on the set of tests, until we get review then we don't have a basis 03:15:48 … really pleading to get people to step for review 03:15:54 Travis has joined #webapps 03:16:22 james: think there are some overlap in tests from microsoft tests and opera tests 03:16:24 jin has joined #webapps 03:16:40 …. other submissions are smaller, so not as much as it looks like there 03:17:52 artb: thanks for clarification …. we need somebody as test facilitator for IDB, won't be able to move forward in interop until tests are reviews 03:18:01 … anything else (to the crowd) 03:18:13 TOPIC: Server Sent Events 03:18:14 richt has joined #webapps 03:18:42 artb: not too far off from having 2 impls passing the tests, tina has done some good works in analyzing the failures 03:19:15 … so there are 5 test failures preventing from going to recommendation. from chrome and firefox 03:20:00 kurosawa has joined #webapps 03:20:51 cwdoh has joined #webapps 03:20:57 james: it looks like there are some common failures … maybe it could be a change to the spec then to fix both of them but depends if failing for same reason so some sluething needs to occur, OK scratch all of that 03:21:02 naka has joined #webapps 03:21:42 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 03:21:49 … it's an interaction with a second spec 03:21:53 naka_ has joined #webapps 03:22:05 chaals: maybe small enough bugs or known bug from before 03:22:18 … just need to look in to the bugs an tina could provide more 03:22:41 ACTION: talk to Tina about how to make progress on SSE interop 03:22:41 Error finding 'talk'. You can review and register nicknames at . 03:23:18 artb: what about the timeout one failing is actually a test case issue instead … will talk to tina about it 03:23:48 james: have a feeling these were opera test originally … zzzz is around here could ask him 03:25:00 artb: anything else on event source? 03:25:08 TOPIC: Web Messaging 03:25:17 kinukoAndroUser has joined #webapps 03:25:23 artb: have alex as test facilitator , adrian is alex able to help with this one ? 03:25:45 adrian: talked to chris, his opinion is we have a good enough set of test for web messaging an there is interop here. 03:26:10 richt_ has joined #webapps 03:26:45 csjung has joined #webapps 03:26:50 … while still some failures looks like there might be some need investigation 03:26:59 … propose give me action to talk to chris 03:27:05 seo has joined #webapps 03:27:24 ACTION: bateman followup with KrisK re WebMessaging test results http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/WebMessaging 03:27:24 Created ACTION-705 - Followup with krisk re webmessaging test results http://www.w3.org/wiki/webapps/interop/webmessaging [on Adrian Bateman - due 2013-11-19]. 03:27:34 artb: anymore ? 03:27:37 .. ok next up 03:27:44 TOPIC: Web Sockets 03:28:22 artb: Kris is test faciliator i went ahead and ran these, some timeouts towards the end of the tests maybe a problem with the tests themselves 03:28:40 james: yeah, that looks wrong, the web sockets test have historically had issues there 03:28:56 … suggest re-running tests to improve things 03:29:15 adrianba: may have some issues with network configs etc. proxy server 03:29:49 darobin has joined #webapps 03:30:19 … conclusion we had they were until there were changes to people impls there were issues that still needed to be addressed 03:30:46 … still a question about how importatn are those test in grand scheme 03:30:55 artb: what is reasonable next step? 03:31:18 … does it make sense to have Kris eval what is there and make a recommendation? 03:31:39 adrainba: don't think they are bogus, the opera tests added added additional coverage 03:32:45 kinukoAndroUser has joined #webapps 03:32:58 … one option would be to analyze the current coverage of the tests and what the failures are a resulting from 03:33:32 rniwa has joined #webapps 03:33:53 james: think those results are misleading, just ran the tests on gecko and we are def. getting some passes where those results are getting timeouts 03:34:05