15:54:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:54:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-wai-wcag-irc
15:55:08 <Joshue108> zakim, this will be WCAG
15:55:08 <Zakim> ok, Joshue108, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started
15:55:22 <Joshue108> Chair: Joshue
15:55:47 <Joshue108> agenda +  Survey for 12th of November https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/
15:55:59 <Joshue108> agenda +  Institutional Memory Exercise https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/InstM12112013/
15:57:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:57:21 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:57:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:57:27 <Joshue108> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:57:27 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:59:32 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
16:00:09 <bbailey> bbailey has joined #wai-wcag
16:00:40 <Zakim> + +1.703.825.aaaa
16:01:08 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:03:02 <SPanchang> SPanchang has joined #wai-wcag
16:03:43 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
16:03:58 <bbailey> zakim, i am bruce
16:03:58 <Zakim> ok, bbailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey
16:04:30 <bbailey> scribe bruce
16:04:43 <Peter_Thiessen> Peter_Thiessen has joined #wai-wcag
16:04:50 <bbailey> s/scribe bruce//
16:04:57 <bbailey> zakim, scribe bruce
16:04:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribe bruce', bbailey
16:06:12 <Joshue108> Scribenick: Bruce
16:06:23 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 1
16:06:23 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Survey for 12th of November https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:06:33 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
16:06:33 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
16:06:34 <Zakim> 1. Survey for 12th of November https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/ [from Joshue108]
16:06:34 <Zakim> 2. Institutional Memory Exercise https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/InstM12112013/ [from Joshue108]
16:06:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:07:14 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
16:07:14 <Peter_Thiessen> Zakim, IPcaller is me
16:07:14 <Zakim> +Peter_Thiessen; got it
16:07:17 <bbailey> TOPIC:  Feedback on updated Techniques 5th November 2013
16:07:19 <Peter_Thiessen> Zakim, mute me
16:07:19 <Zakim> Peter_Thiessen should now be muted
16:07:33 <bbailey> TOPIC:  1. [Start here on 12th Nov] Updated review of F65: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting the alt attribute on img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image
16:07:37 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
16:07:56 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#x2673
16:08:13 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
16:08:25 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#xtechsc2
16:08:37 <bbailey> TOPIC: 4. Draft response to comment LC-2863: G73 – Providing a long description in another location with a link […]
16:08:41 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
16:08:49 <bbailey> RESOLUTION:  Accept as proposed
16:09:48 <Joshue108> 3. Updated technique Using the group role to identify related form controls
16:09:57 <bbailey> TOPIC: 3. Updated technique Using the group role to identify related form controls
16:10:09 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#x2663
16:10:49 <bbailey> Discussed last week
16:11:15 <bbailey> Some clean up happened
16:12:01 <bbailey> Salish took action item to rework a bit last week
16:12:32 <bbailey> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_group_role_to_identify_related_form_controls
16:12:48 <bbailey> Edit included updated title
16:14:10 <bbailey> Screen reader behavior for group and radio group is the same
16:14:38 <bbailey> Salish discusses some previous issues with validation on using radio group, but this is not an issue now
16:15:52 <bbailey> Updated title of techniques is http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_group_role_to_identify_related_form_controls
16:17:10 <Joshue108> New title "Using grouping roles to identify related form controls when using fieldset-legend is not practical"
16:20:56 <bbailey> Discus wiki mechanics for rename...
16:20:59 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_grouping_roles_to_identify_related_form_controls_when_using_fieldset-legend_is_not_practical
16:22:56 <bbailey> Discus that additional example with custom code example is desireable
16:24:30 <bbailey> q+ to ask where is Salish's description
16:24:50 <bbailey> q-
16:25:53 <bbailey> See Salish's “Suggested Example 3” in survey response
16:28:58 <Peter_Thiessen> Are we avoiding classes so the code is self contained?
16:29:15 <bbailey> Accept color edit suggestion from Kathy
16:30:28 <bbailey> ACTION: David to add example 3 from Salish, see email to list
16:30:28 <trackbot> 'David' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dmacdona, dtodd2).
16:30:49 <bbailey> ACTION: dmacdona to add example 3 from Salish, see email to list
16:30:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-230 - Add example 3 from salish, see email to list [on David MacDonald - due 2013-11-19].
16:31:10 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
16:31:17 <Joshue108> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/form-markup.htm#tech6
16:31:22 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
16:31:37 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
16:32:00 <bbailey> Salish will replicate color change to hosted sample code
16:32:28 <Joshue108> Updated review of F38: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to not marking up decorative images or applets in HTML in a way that allows assistive technology to ignore them
16:32:33 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results
16:33:18 <bbailey> leaving open until example 3 done
16:33:50 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#x2673
16:34:01 <bbailey> TOPIC:  1. [Start here on 12th Nov] Updated review of F65: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting the alt attribute on img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image
16:34:28 <bbailey> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Aria-Edit:_F65:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_omitting_the_alt_attribute_on_img_elements,_area_elements,_and_input_elements_of_type_image
16:34:59 <bbailey> TOPIC:  . Updated review of F38: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to not marking up decorative images or applets in HTML in a way that allows assistive technology to ignore them
16:35:10 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#x2652
16:35:15 <Joshue108> F38: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to not marking up decorative images or applets in HTML in a way that allows assistive technology to ignore them
16:35:22 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/F38:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_not_marking_up_decorative_images_or_applets_in_HTML_in_a_way_that_allows_assitive_technology_to_ignore_them
16:36:17 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/F38:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_not_marking_up_decorative_images_or_applets_in_HTML_in_a_way_that_allows_Assistive_technology_to_ignore_them
16:37:16 <bbailey> Discus and incorporated edits from Andrew Kirkpatrick
16:38:06 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/F38:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_not_marking_up_decorative_images_or_applets_in_HTML_in_a_way_that_allows_Assistive_technology_to_ignore_them#Description
16:41:40 <Peter_Thiessen> +1 remove
16:42:19 <bbailey> Andrew comments accepted
16:42:53 <bbailey> RESOLUTION:  Accept as amended
16:43:01 <bbailey> s/discus/discuss/
16:43:17 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/F38:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_not_marking_up_decorative_images_in_HTML_in_a_way_that_allows_Assistive_technology_to_ignore_them
16:43:33 <Joshue108> Updated review of F65: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting the alt attribute on img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image
16:43:39 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Aria-Edit:_F65:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_omitting_the_alt_attribute_on_img_elements,_area_elements,_and_input_elements_of_type_image
16:43:47 <bbailey> TOPIC:  1. [Start here on 12th Nov] Updated review of F65: Failure of Success Criterion 1.1.1 due to omitting the alt attribute on img elements, area elements, and input elements of type image
16:43:57 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Nov5_2013/results#x2673
16:45:34 <bbailey> Discus is “pass” == “not fail”
16:45:51 <bbailey> s/Discus/Discuss/
16:46:46 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#alt
16:47:52 <bbailey> Discuss that it is very sensitive and controversial to allow any alternative to alt attribute
16:49:54 <bbailey> Discuss that failures are very strong, so that if accessibility support is good for alternatives to alt, failure for any missing of alt may be too much
16:50:37 <bbailey> Issue is test procedure
16:50:56 <bbailey> Discuss that issue is test procedure
16:51:02 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
16:51:02 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:51:40 <Joshue108> So it seems to me that the test procedure as outlined here is a bone of contention.
16:52:55 <bbailey> zakim, who is on phone
16:52:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on phone', bbailey
16:53:56 <bbailey> Discussion that ARIA provides other mechanism for associating alternative text with images and other elements
16:54:28 <bbailey> Discussion that allowing pure ARIA approach would support ARIA uptake
16:55:29 <Joshue108> ack aaaa
16:55:34 <Joshue108> ack aaaa
16:55:47 <Joshue108> +q
16:55:55 <jamesn> q+
16:56:18 <bbailey> Discussion and agreement that technique represents larger issue, and cannot be discussed in isolation
16:56:21 <Joshue108> ack 703
16:56:32 <Joshue108> ack 825.a
16:57:08 <bbailey> Discussion that practical support for title attribute evolved from work on ARIA spec
16:57:20 <Joshue108> ack me
16:58:58 <bbailey> Discussion that allowing parallel alternative to alt is a big change
16:59:20 <bbailey> Discussion that allowing multiple choices actually increases cost
16:59:55 <bbailey> Discussion that historically we have not allowed title as sufficient
17:00:37 <bbailey> q+ to say missed salishes comment
17:01:01 <Joshue108> ack Bruce
17:01:01 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to say missed salishes comment
17:01:51 <Joshue108> ack james
17:01:57 <bbailey> Discuss that title support remains dependent on user agent support
17:02:35 <bbailey> Discuss that hover-text different than accessibility supported
17:03:28 <bbailey> Discuss that requiring alt could change for HTML 5 specific
17:04:43 <jamesn> q+
17:05:54 <bbailey> Discus issue where null alt could contradict ARIA values
17:05:56 <Joshue108> ack james
17:06:03 <Joshue108> ack .aaa
17:06:06 <Joshue108> ack .aaaa
17:06:34 <Joshue108> zakim, aaaa is Sailesh
17:06:34 <Zakim> +Sailesh; got it
17:06:38 <Joshue108> ack Sail
17:06:58 <bbailey> Discuss that failures are used as anti-checklist in actual practice
17:07:52 <bbailey> q+ to ask if we can constrain discussion to html 5
17:08:43 <bbailey> Discuss that prohibiting things that are actually accessibility in practice is also a bad precedent
17:09:01 <Peter_Thiessen> Sorry to run, have to run to another meeting.
17:09:24 <Zakim> -Peter_Thiessen
17:09:52 <Zakim> -Joshue
17:10:47 <bbailey> Discuss if img src missing, only alt provides alternative in default UA behavior
17:11:37 <bbailey> Discuss if img block behavior is comparable to accessibility supported
17:12:00 <Zakim> +??P2
17:13:10 <Joshue108_> Joshue108_ has joined #wai-wcag
17:13:16 <bbailey> Discuss AT support for ALT alternative for other AT besides screen readers
17:13:20 <Joshue108_> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:13:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see David_MacDonald, Sailesh, [Microsoft], Bruce_Bailey, Marc_Johlic, Kathy_Wahlbin, James_Nurthen, ??P2
17:13:32 <Joshue108_> zakim, ??P2 is Joshue
17:13:32 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
17:13:38 <Joshue108_> zakim, queue?
17:13:38 <Zakim> I see +1.703.825.aaaa, Bruce_Bailey on the speaker queue
17:13:56 <Joshue108_> zakim, .aaaa is Sailesh
17:13:56 <Zakim> sorry, Joshue108_, I do not recognize a party named '.aaaa'
17:14:00 <Joshue108_> zakim, aaaa is Sailesh
17:14:00 <Zakim> sorry, Joshue108_, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
17:14:39 <bbailey> Discuss historically uneven support for title attribute
17:15:55 <bbailey> Discuss if we might just focus on test proceedure
17:16:55 <Joshue108_> zakim, queue?
17:16:55 <Zakim> I see +1.703.825.aaaa, Bruce_Bailey on the speaker queue
17:17:22 <jamesn> q+
17:17:50 <bbailey> q+
17:17:53 <bbailey> q+
17:17:59 <bbailey> q-
17:18:00 <bbailey> q-
17:18:02 <bbailey> q-
17:18:03 <jamesn> ack aaaa
17:18:23 <jamesn> zakim, aaaa is Sailesh
17:18:23 <Zakim> sorry, jamesn, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
17:18:45 <bbailey> zakim, queue?
17:18:45 <Zakim> I see +1.703.825.aaaa, jamesn on the speaker queue
17:18:49 <bbailey> ack
17:19:06 <bbailey> zakim, queue?
17:19:06 <Zakim> I see +1.703.825.aaaa, jamesn on the speaker queue
17:19:20 <bbailey> zakim, ack
17:19:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'ack', bbailey
17:20:18 <David> q+
17:20:29 <bbailey> Discuss that validity and html 5/4 not the issue
17:20:47 <Joshue108_> zakim, queue?
17:20:47 <Zakim> I see +1.703.825.aaaa, jamesn, David on the speaker queue
17:21:27 <bbailey> zakim, +1.703.825.aaaa is Sailesh
17:21:27 <Zakim> sorry, bbailey, I do not recognize a party named '+1.703.825.aaaa'
17:21:45 <bbailey> 	zakim, 1.703.825.aaaa is Sailesh
17:21:45 <Zakim> sorry, bbailey, I do not recognize a party named '1.703.825.aaaa'
17:23:04 <Joshue108_> zakim, queue?
17:23:04 <Zakim> I see +1.703.825.aaaa, jamesn, David on the speaker queue
17:23:07 <bbailey> 	zakim, 825 is Sailesh
17:23:07 <Zakim> sorry, bbailey, I do not recognize a party named '825'
17:23:11 <Joshue108_> ack james
17:23:15 <Joshue108_> ack david
17:23:48 <bbailey> Discuss relate this discussion to controversy over requiring validity (or not)
17:25:09 <bbailey> Discuss that attributes in technique listed hierarchical by parsing tree, not human precedence
17:26:13 <bbailey> Discuss that we could use wider input, but question would need to be carefully crafted
17:26:59 <bbailey> Leave open
17:27:15 <Joshue108_> rrsagent, make minutes
17:27:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-wai-wcag-minutes.html Joshue108_
17:27:55 <Joshue108_> [Next Week 19th Start here] http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Aria-Edit:_F65:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_omitting_the_alt_attribute_on_img_elements,_area_elements,_and_input_elements_of_type_image
17:28:35 <Joshue108_> Institutional Memory collection not discussed this week
17:28:48 <Joshue108_> zakim, take up item 2
17:28:48 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Institutional Memory Exercise https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/InstM12112013/" taken up [from Joshue108]
17:29:31 <Joshue108_> Can everyone please look at the Institutional memory question on the survey
17:30:36 <bbailey> Discuss that ARIA labeled-by is well supported, is as easy a developer rule as alt
17:31:38 <jamesn> zakim, bye
17:31:38 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were David_MacDonald, Joshue, +1.703.825.aaaa, [Microsoft], Bruce_Bailey, Peter_Thiessen, Marc_Johlic, Kathy_Wahlbin, James_Nurthen,
17:31:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
17:31:38 <Joshue108_> zakim, please part
17:31:41 <Zakim> ... Sailesh
17:31:50 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
17:31:58 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
17:32:04 <jamesn> rrsagent, please part
17:32:04 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :
17:32:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: David to add example 3 from Salish, see email to list [1]
17:32:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-wai-wcag-irc#T16-30-28
17:32:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: dmacdona to add example 3 from Salish, see email to list [2]
17:32:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-wai-wcag-irc#T16-30-49