00:58:31 RRSAgent has joined #webapps 00:58:31 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-irc 00:58:44 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 00:59:02 Meeting: WebApps F2F Meeting @ TPAC 2013 00:59:15 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/November2013Meeting 00:59:24 dom has joined #webapps 01:04:28 a12u has joined #webapps 01:06:10 a12u has joined #webapps 01:06:19 edoyle has joined #webapps 01:09:32 dopi has joined #webapps 01:09:41 dom has joined #webapps 01:10:42 nkic has joined #webapps 01:11:59 kennyluck_ has joined #webapps 01:12:37 myakura has joined #webapps 01:14:31 Yudong has joined #webapps 01:15:17 Yang has joined #webapps 01:15:46 dom_ has joined #webapps 01:16:45 yuka_o_ has joined #webapps 01:16:59 nsakai2__ has joined #webapps 01:18:22 cyril has joined #webapps 01:19:56 richt has joined #webapps 01:20:38 richt_ has joined #webapps 01:22:51 Chair: Art, Chaals 01:22:59 Present+ Art_Barstow 01:23:12 richt__ has joined #webapps 01:23:42 Present+ aizu 01:23:52 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:23:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 01:23:58 RRSAgent, make log Public 01:24:46 Present+ Arnaud_Braud 01:24:50 Present+ Mete_Balci 01:24:51 rsleevi has joined #webapps 01:24:56 Present+ Chaals_Nevile 01:24:57 wayneCarr has joined #webapps 01:25:35 zakim, call shenzhen 01:25:35 ok, ArtB; the call is being made 01:25:37 IA_WebApps()7:00PM has now started 01:25:38 +Shenzhen 01:26:17 zakim, who's here? 01:26:17 On the phone I see Shenzhen 01:26:18 On IRC I see wayneCarr, rsleevi, richt__, richt_, richt, cyril, nsakai2__, yuka_o_, dom, Yang, myakura, kennyluck, nkic, edoyle, a12u, RRSAgent, glenn, mete, lmclister, byungjung, 01:26:18 ... tomoyuki, Zakim, Arno, denis, aizu, ArtB, Lachy, lgombos_, skddc 01:26:35 + +1.503.264.aaaa 01:26:42 - +1.503.264.aaaa 01:27:00 -Shenzhen 01:27:01 IA_WebApps()7:00PM has ended 01:27:01 Attendees were Shenzhen, +1.503.264.aaaa 01:27:08 +Present Tomoyuki_Shimizu 01:27:30 jungkees has joined #webapps 01:27:33 -Present Tomoyuki_Shimizu 01:27:42 Present+ Jungkee_Song 01:27:47 aboyet has joined #webapps 01:28:53 adrianba has joined #webapps 01:29:06 josh_ has joined #webapps 01:29:15 shepazu has joined #webapps 01:29:18 IA_WebApps()7:00PM has now started 01:29:25 +??P2 01:29:56 + +1.503.264.aaaa 01:30:35 plh has joined #webapps 01:30:41 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:30:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 01:30:56 mastahyeti has joined #webapps 01:31:45 Eliot has joined #webapps 01:32:24 Yudong has joined #webapps 01:32:25 ScribeNick: heycam 01:32:35 Scribe: Cameron 01:33:00 Travis_MSFT has joined #webapps 01:33:01 dennisdmac has joined #webapps 01:33:02 dezell has joined #webapps 01:33:10 Topic: Agenda bashing 01:33:11 sangrae has joined #webapps 01:33:20 chaals: we have a couple of items already fixed 01:33:27 ... at 1:30 the Indie UI people will come and talk to us 01:33:28 sgalineau has joined #webapps 01:33:32 ... they sent us a new proposal 01:33:36 ... they'll talk about that 01:33:36 xiaoqian has joined #webapps 01:33:45 ... at 5:00pm we have a couple of things locked in 01:33:52 ... there's also a pile of topics we want 01:33:56 ... DOM 3 Events, File API, .... 01:34:01 q+ 01:34:08 ... we have a couple of requests to have Streams/XHR discussions after lunch, not between 2 and 2:30 01:34:12 ... I suggest we push them later 01:34:17 ... any preferences for discussing any topics? 01:34:17 jin has joined #webapps 01:34:32 shepazu: I think for people who aren't native English speakers, we're on IRC 01:34:39 ... anyone need help getting started with that? 01:34:50 ... IRC is helpful as the scribe types what everyone is saying 01:34:53 ... find me and I can help you 01:35:02 sgalinea_ has joined #webapps 01:35:10 Daniel_Austin has joined #WebApps 01:35:13 paulc has joined #webapps 01:35:20 dopi_ has joined #webapps 01:35:33 -??P2 01:35:44 sgalinea_ has joined #webapps 01:35:48 chaals: so Streams and XHR, between those two do we want an hour? 01:35:54 ... half an hour each? 01:35:58 csjung has joined #webapps 01:36:06 chaals has joined #webapps 01:36:06 ... jungkee does that sound right? 01:36:17 jungkee: I also want to join Sys Apps for service worker introduction, which will happen this afternoon 01:36:22 bryan has joined #webapps 01:36:24 ... I don't really know what time that will be 01:36:38 present+ Bryan_Sullivan 01:36:44 ... I'll speak to the SysApps chairs to organise a time 01:36:47 ... so I'm OK with that 01:36:49 yuer has joined #webapps 01:36:54 ... can I talk about Progress Events at the same time? 01:36:56 chaals: yes 01:37:03 ... do we want to talk about URLs? 01:37:20 Kevin_li has joined #webapps 01:37:25 ... next, Interop and Testing issues 01:37:28 ... tomorrow afternoon 01:37:46 ArtB: I can't get to the page right now; we have I think about 6 specs that are in CR right now 01:37:50 ... including Progress Events 01:37:55 ... for each of those I'd like to get a sense of where we're going with those 01:37:56 btoews has joined #webapps 01:38:01 ... who's interested in helping, what are the issues 01:38:07 ... that's a bit different from the block set aside for tomorrow afternoon 01:38:18 ... jgraham agreed to split that session into the test framework we use, reviewing tests 01:38:22 ... and the second half creating tests 01:38:31 ... for today's agenda, interop and testing, I think I'd rather do that tomorrow morning 01:38:39 chaals: we can more or less randomly distribute the rest of the topics 01:38:43 ... unless someone has a preference 01:38:49 ... so let's just put them in in the order they appear 01:39:01 ... we have DOM 3 Events, File APIs, IME API, Quota API 01:39:08 Zeke has joined #webapps 01:39:10 ... Streams/XHR we've already git 01:39:10 ... and UI Events 01:39:21 +[IPcaller] 01:39:27 Travis_MSFT: I think we can probably combine the discussion on DOM 3 Events with UI Events 01:39:28 ... so don't need separate blocks for those 01:39:44 chaals: should we just do that first? 01:40:00 ... first we'll go through all of our specs 01:40:16 wangxz has joined #webapps 01:40:16 ... for a status update; then we'll deal with the specs that need discussion 01:40:16 ... first will be DOM 3 Events & UI 01:40:16 ArtB: that OK Gary? 01:40:32 gary: sounds fine 01:40:33 Travis_MSFT: can we do that in the afternoon? I want to attend WebRTC in the morning 01:40:59 sgalineau has joined #webapps 01:41:09 DayangShen has joined #webapps 01:42:46 Time difference between Shenzhen and Eastern Time is currently + 13 hours. 01:44:04 Dayang has joined #webapps 01:44:23 sicking: if we can do it early he could call in. 11:30. 01:44:23 chaals: IME at 12? 01:44:23 ArtB: we need Mike Smith for that 01:44:23 chaals: let's put it provisionally at 12 01:44:23 gary: he's busy in the Testing thing 01:44:23 ArtB: Quota API at 14:30 01:44:25 ... will we do the File System API at the same time as File API? 01:44:26 rniwa has joined #webapps 01:44:27 sicking: yes 01:44:31 hober: Mike is fine for that time 01:44:42 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 01:44:53 zakim, who's here? 01:44:54 On the phone I see +1.503.264.aaaa, [IPcaller] 01:44:54 On IRC I see lmcliste_, rniwa, Dayang, sgalineau, wangxz, Zeke, btoews, Kevin_li, yuer, bryan, chaals, csjung, sgalinea_, dopi_, paulc, Daniel_Austin, jin, xiaoqian, sangrae, 01:44:54 ... dezell, dennisdmac, Travis_MSFT, Yudong, Eliot, plh, shepazu, josh_ 01:45:14 - +1.503.264.aaaa 01:45:32 zakim, call shenzhen 01:45:32 ok, ArtB; the call is being made 01:45:34 -[IPcaller] 01:45:34 +[IPcaller] 01:45:34 +Shenzhen 01:46:36 Marcus_Altman__ has joined #webapps 01:46:43 -[IPcaller] 01:46:58 +[IPcaller] 01:46:59 -[IPcaller] 01:46:59 +[IPcaller] 01:47:08 + +1.503.264.aabb 01:47:53 /me can people on the phone hear us? 01:48:27 wangxz_ has joined #webapps 01:48:36 heard nothing before 01:48:41 Topic: PubStatus 01:48:44 can hear now but not understand 01:48:51 chaals: we'll go through each of the specs we work on 01:49:05 http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus 01:49:11 ... the first spec is AppCache NG 01:49:12 zqzhang__ has joined #webapps 01:49:26 ... we have a proposal from Jonas 01:49:35 ... and we have Service Workers that Alex is working on somewhere 01:49:48 ... do we know what his plan is? 01:49:58 ArtB: jungkee you said Alex was going to go through it at SysApps? 01:50:03 ... can we get him to present here? 01:50:36 wxz has joined #webapps 01:50:37 jungkees: SysApps WG is working on some runtime design and speccing etc. 01:50:55 ... and now a concept like Google's Event Page has been proposed at the last F2F 01:51:03 ... after that, Marcos from Mozilla proposed we align our efforts with Service Workers 01:51:17 ... since that covers basically the same requirements and use cases 01:51:18 ... making the application offline 01:51:18 ... so that's the bottom line 01:51:32 ... the co-chair of SysApps invited Alex Russell to introduce his Service Worker work this afternoon 01:51:37 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #webapps 01:51:47 ... I heard that Alex has a meeting with the TAG this morning 01:51:47 ... not sure about the schedule 01:51:58 joshpeek has joined #webapps 01:52:02 chaals: we have an open session at 3pm 01:52:02 ... can we do that together with Sys Apps then? 01:52:17 jungkees: I think that'd be really nice 01:52:17 ... SysApps are also talking about an application model 01:52:55 kochi_tpac has joined #webapps 01:52:58 YANG_ has joined #webapps 01:53:14 btoews has left #webapps 01:53:35 btoews has joined #webapps 01:55:47 jungkee: SysApps' charter was for application manifests, etc. like on FirefoxOS 01:55:47 jungkee: IMO they are two different ways of implementing the same goals 01:55:47 ... for offline webapps 01:56:02 ... so at some point we need to talk about that together 01:56:15 ken_ has joined #webapps 01:56:16 chaals: let's hope to do that at 3pm 01:56:16 ... next items is CORS 01:56:16 ... we don't have Anne 01:56:16 ArtB: I talked to Wendy a bit about this 01:56:16 ... Brad is trying to organise a call with the Director 01:56:30 ... the sticking point will be normative references 01:56:30 ... one of which is to the Fetch spec 01:56:30 ... not sure how that will be resolved 01:56:30 ... hopefully PR will be published by the end of this month 01:56:30 chaals: next, Clipboard APIs and events 01:56:44 ... we don't have Hallvord 01:56:56 - +1.503.264.aabb 01:57:35 ACTION: dimitri reply to Ryosuke's comments re Custom Element as part of LC comments 01:57:35 Created ACTION-700 - Reply to ryosuke's comments re custom element as part of lc comments [on Dimitri Glazkov - due 2013-11-18]. 01:59:19 +[IPcaller.a] 01:59:39 ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish LCWD of DOM Parsing and Serialization 01:59:39 Created ACTION-701 - Start a cfc to publish lcwd of dom parsing and serialization [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-18]. 02:00:24 chaals: it's in work still? 02:00:24 ArtB: on Oct 17 Hallvord sent a status email 02:00:24 ... requesting developer feedback 02:00:24 ... nearly right to go to LC, still some bugs open 02:00:24 ... only Firefox implements the whole spec, some partial implementations 02:00:24 ... an action for Chaals and I to chase those bugs down 02:00:25 chaals: custom elements in in LC 02:00:25 ... comments due by 21st 02:00:25 travis: generally do we have any Web Components discussions planned? 02:00:26 rniwa: we have sent some comments 02:00:26 .. for Custom elements about declarative syntax 02:00:26 ... we have an issue with the register function taking a prototype 02:00:27 ... there's no guarantee that the prototype is an HTML element 02:00:28 ... you could inherit from random HTML elements which also could be a concern 02:00:28 ... I'd like some time to talk about these issues 02:00:28 chaals: we don't have Dmitry here 02:00:28 ... next, DOM Parsing & Serialization 02:00:28 travis: I havent' seen any activity in about a year 02:00:28 ... maybe we should just consider moving it along to LC/CR and see if it brings up any feedback? 02:00:29 ArtB: do you want to fix this one bug before LC? 02:00:29 travis: I think it's already fixed in the Living Standard version 02:00:29 ... I just need to do the work 02:00:30 ... LC next week maybe? 02:00:30 chaals: CfC for LC next week 02:00:30 paulcotton: to go back to DOM 3, are you having a meeting with the Indie UI people? 02:00:31 ... there's an overlap between the Indie & PF consistuency 02:00:36 apps has joined #webapps 02:00:37 ... they've asked for an agenda item in HTML on the relationship between DOM 3, DOM 4 and UI Events 02:00:37 ... I wonder if it might make sense to bundle that with the Indie UI item this afternoon 02:00:37 gary: I don't mind covering that 02:00:39 ... I won't be around on Thursday 02:00:44 ... so definitely on Monday/Tuesday 02:00:51 chaals: I think it is a 2 min discussion 02:00:57 shepazu: 15-30 mins 02:01:10 ... I don't think there's a 2 min discussion. it'll take 5 mins to get settled in etc. 02:01:19 ... there'll be information shared on both sides 02:01:23 jj has joined #webapps 02:01:25 ArtB: we have D3E right after Indie UI 02:01:28 ... we can go right into that 02:01:32 chaals: we hope it'll fit in to the agenda 02:01:39 ... File API we will discuss after the break 02:01:43 ... next: Full Screen API 02:01:48 ... do we know anything about that? 02:01:54 ... no Tantek 02:02:13 ArtB: if anyone is willing to work on the W3C's version of Anne's Full Screen spec let me or Chaals know about it 02:02:24 ... Game Pad, we don't have Scott/Ted in the room 02:02:37 ArtB: the WG members know I attempted to get status in advance for this meeting 02:02:47 ... Ted did reply that the spec is being implemented by at least Gecko 02:02:52 ... is there interest from other vendors? 02:02:57 ... I know Scott works for Google 02:03:05 ... any idea about interest in implementation in Chrome? IE, WebKit? 02:03:18 ... do you WebKit guys have something like the Chrome Status page? 02:03:26 rniwa: we don't plan to implement Gamepad 02:03:50 ... I think there was some suggestion in the past in the WebKit community, but I don't think we have a plan or a proposal to 02:04:08 ArtB: one reason for having this conversation is about process 02:04:26 ... chaals has been working on getting testing/requirements done earlier in the W3C Process 02:04:30 -[IPcaller.a] 02:04:34 ... I'm just trying to get a sense on this one 02:04:34 ... sounds like it might be iffy moving forwards 02:04:51 adrianba: so we've looked at the spec 02:04:51 ... it doesn't necessarily map to the way we think about gamepad 02:05:00 droh___ has joined #webapps 02:05:07 ... I know we've thought about how some of the aspects of gamepad, and the buttons etc., mesh with something like DOM Events 02:05:23 ... so we don't have any plans for this specific API 02:05:24 ... it's an area we've been thinking about 02:05:24 ... i don't have anything else right now 02:05:40 gary: one comment to add, from the DOM 3 perspective, looking at the keyboard events 02:05:56 ... we assumed some sort of gamepad api would take over for joystick buttons etc. 02:05:57 shepazu: an earlier draft did consider it 02:07:25 YANG has joined #webapps 02:09:09 adrianba: I wasn't suggesting for DOM 3, since we want to get that done 02:09:09 ... there's some thinking around multiple users using a common application, 02:09:09 ... and if there's more than one keyboard device provided, you might want to take presses from different places 02:09:10 ... gamepad takes a simpler model 02:09:10 gary: with buttons, we wanted that to happen 02:09:10 ... e.g. click events to fire for buttons 02:09:11 ... a recent change in DOM 3 click and dblclick events are fired only for the primary button 02:09:11 ... so that doesn't work for gamepad, with a dozen buttons 02:09:11 ... that's another area where DOM 3 isn't going to work for gamepad inputs 02:09:12 chaals: HTML Imports 02:09:12 ... Dmitry says the essence might go into HTML 02:09:12 ... IndexedDB we'll talk about tomorrow 02:09:12 ... IME later today 02:09:12 ... Pointer Lock, we're in LC 02:09:18 ... if you have a comment on that spec, please make it 02:09:24 ... well before the end of this month 02:09:33 ... do we know impl status for that? 02:09:42 ArtB: I don't have a link to the latest effort 02:09:50 chaals: progress events we'll come back to 02:09:52 ... Push API 02:10:01 ... Bryan Sullivan? 02:10:13 bryan: the status is accurate 02:10:17 ... Art asked a question on the list 02:10:20 naka has joined #webapps 02:10:28 ... I don't know that we have anybody specifically signed up to be a test facilitator 02:10:31 ... afaik no tests have been created yet 02:10:40 ... afaik Mozilla is still working on an implementation, for Firefox OS? 02:10:46 ... the PAG has done their report 02:10:56 ... I think the spec has been pretty stable, for several months now, no outstanding bugs 02:10:59 ... not much traffic on the list 02:11:05 ... just trying to get through the PAG phase 02:11:20 ... and the PAG report was that the exclusions didn't read upon the spec 02:11:31 sicking: there's two challenges 02:11:52 ... the first is that the first spec we did, that the PAG looked at, is significantly different from the current draft 02:11:53 ... don't know if that's important 02:12:35 chaals: the general principle is, if you change the spec between FPWD and LCWD, when you CfE again at last call, people may exclude patents against the new bits of work 02:12:35 ... whether that happens or not... 02:12:35 ... I think the PAG actually looked at the spec as it is now 02:12:58 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #webapps 02:14:59 naka has joined #webapps 02:15:07 jcraig has joined #webapps 02:16:15 test 02:16:48 scribenick: bryan 02:17:08 Scribe+ Bryan 02:17:19 topic: SSE status 02:17:21 topic for tomorrow 02:17:35 Shadow DOM, working... 02:17:54 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 02:18:13 chaals: Screen Orientation API, TAG has issues with it... 02:18:45 jeff_ has joined #webapps 02:19:06 ... URL spec, chaals is editor and no change in 6 months. not a massive lot ot work to do, but some horrible edge cases. co-editor welcome. expect help on URLs from IETF 02:19:39 ... Web IDL, an hour this afternoon 02:19:44 jjj has joined #webapps 02:20:32 ... Web Manifest, a work of webapps and sysapps. Marcos indicated there is some research to do. A joint meeting will be planned. 02:21:30 ... Web Storage, at REC. Hixie is making changes to his version. Any interest in the next version? 02:22:27 ... taking an errata approach, we are required to note them but bothering to do something is another decision 02:23:05 topic: Charter Status 02:23:39 q+ 02:23:41 chaals: charter expires in 6 months. proposed changes is to remove stuff. 02:23:59 artb: no proposed additions at this time. 02:24:02 Doug, can we get a link to the Charter? 02:24:13 @@ [continuing on Push API after "I think the PAG actually looked at the spec as it is now"] ... not the initial spec 02:24:13 bryan: that's correct 02:24:13 ... the spec as it stands now is considerably simpler than it was at FPWD 02:24:13 chaals: the assumption is the risk of further exclusion is reduced 02:24:13 sicking: the other challenge is, while we're defining an API, it's actually undefined how to fire a callback 02:24:13 ... the best idea we have is to use service workers 02:24:14 ... seems like it's going to be hard to get to Rec without Service Workers 02:24:14 bryan: it also depends on DOM 4 02:24:14 ... the events are based on Promises 02:24:15 travis: Promises definition is moving to the ES spec 02:24:15 ... so might be slightly easier to depend on there 02:24:15 shepazu: I think it was accepted into the next draft of ES6 @@ [end of previous discussion on Push API] 02:24:32 q- 02:24:32 adrianba: can we just ask for an extension? 02:24:46 http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Charter 02:24:57 http://www.w3.org/2010/webapps/charter/ 02:24:58 ack me 02:25:31 chaals: we may have some work per results from the supergroup discussion underway in AC 02:25:52 oops, http://www.w3.org/2012/webapps/charter/ 02:26:13 ... any other items we want to fold back in? 02:26:16 q+ 02:27:07 naka_ has joined #webapps 02:27:48 ... we could request an extension if it will make life easier, but a proper charter is better and not that hard 02:28:29 shepazu: suggest to push the boundaries re what is allowed in the charter for a supergroup 02:29:15 chaals: that work started last week and we don't know what will result. another issue raised was the doc license; should we follow HTML example, or wait for theirs to complete 02:29:58 ... if we push for open doc license earlier its unclear what would happen - W3C and members need to decide what they would like on this 02:30:03 ken has joined #webapps 02:30:11 q? 02:31:02 jjj has joined #webapps 02:31:39 jgraham: tomorrow afternoon there will be a session on testing; with agenda (1) reviewing - this group has a large backlog 02:31:47 ... (2) writing tests 02:32:57 jeff: back on the charter; did not see too many deliverable with dates much beyond today; if we send a charter like that to the AC we may get pushback on where are the deliverables 02:33:17 ... discussion should include what are the deliverables in the 14-15 timeframe 02:33:45 chaals: our pubstatus wiki page gives that info; including this in the charter is trivial but a first approximation 02:33:59 plh3 has joined #webapps 02:34:07 ... we have some guesses in the charter but unsuccessful in having actuality match the charter 02:34:50 jeff: to provide at least a guess is good 02:34:56 AndroUser has joined #webapps 02:35:39 paulc: selectors API Level 1 is in DOM4? 02:35:46 chaals: no 02:35:59 paulc: can someone explain the relationship? 02:36:17 kinuko has joined #webapps 02:36:45 chaals: Selectors Level 1 is REC; we were working on Selectors Level 2 and since DOM4 is doing that we are assuming it will be done there 02:36:51 jjj_ has joined #webapps 02:37:01 paulc: the pubstatus page says something else 02:37:12 artb: the table has old info 02:37:19 kochi__ has joined #webapps 02:37:30 paulc: to Jeff's point, that was confusing 02:37:36 YANG has joined #webapps 02:38:18 jjj_ has joined #webapps 02:38:40 jjj___ has joined #webapps 02:40:08 YANG_ has joined #webapps 02:40:38 jjj_ has joined #webapps 02:41:45 richt has joined #webapps 02:43:00 myakura_ has joined #webapps 02:47:08 Dayang has joined #webapps 02:50:49 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:50:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 02:53:01 Jiki_M has joined #webapps 02:54:19 Present+ Jonas_Sicking, Cameron_McCormack, Adam_Boyet, Adrian_Bateman, Daniel_Austin, Ed_OConnor, Elit_Graff, Gary_Kacmarcik, James_Graham, Ryosuke_Niwa, Travis_Leithead, Paul_cotton 02:57:06 Marcus_Altman_ has joined #webapps 02:59:38 btoews has joined #webapps 03:02:35 csjung has joined #webapps 03:04:55 denis has joined #webapps 03:07:59 droh__ has joined #webapps 03:13:29 Arno has joined #webapps 03:16:17 csjung has joined #webapps 03:18:24 mete has joined #webapps 03:20:09 nkic has joined #webapps 03:22:08 edoyle has joined #webapps 03:23:04 byungjung has joined #webapps 03:23:06 LeiWANG has joined #webapps 03:23:21 ken has joined #webapps 03:23:54 dezell has joined #webapps 03:24:24 zlei__ has joined #webapps 03:25:16 byungjung has left #webapps 03:25:20 yuka_o_ has joined #webapps 03:27:08 RRSAgent, make minutes 03:27:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 03:27:19 jjj has joined #webapps 03:27:56 jjj__ has joined #webapps 03:28:23 JonathanJ has joined #webapps 03:28:38 byungjung has joined #webapps 03:28:47 jjj__ has joined #webapps 03:29:42 rniwa has joined #webapps 03:29:56 jjj__ has joined #webapps 03:30:00 Present+ Xiaoqian_Wu 03:30:08 richt has joined #webapps 03:30:10 Dayang has joined #webapps 03:30:11 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 03:30:27 richt has joined #webapps 03:30:30 jungkees_ has joined #webapps 03:30:39 Present+ Jungkee_Song 03:30:49 myakura has joined #webapps 03:32:08 Present+ Robin_Berjon 03:32:23 zac has joined #webapps 03:32:44 darobin has joined #webapps 03:32:52 a12u has joined #webapps 03:33:06 Daniel_Austin has joined #WebApps 03:33:11 bryan has joined #webapps 03:33:11 Dayang has joined #webapps 03:33:17 scribenick: bryan 03:33:50 aizu has joined #webapps 03:34:03 jin has joined #webapps 03:34:12 Yudong has joined #webapps 03:34:13 aboyet has joined #webapps 03:34:20 jjj_ has joined #webapps 03:34:58 igarashi has joined #webapps 03:35:00 kennyluck has joined #webapps 03:35:08 sicking: should be able to move to CR on File API soon, all issues have been addressed. Implemented in Firefox and (blink, ?webkit, IE 03:35:10 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 03:35:34 ... last minute changes are relatively small so expect that to be implemented quickly 03:35:55 zqzhang__ has joined #webapps 03:35:56 ... sync API is not implemented by more than one 03:36:31 ... expect a short CR; no test suite yet, but can contribute FF test suite 03:36:55 darobin: think there is a test suite, for at least part of it 03:36:58 xiaoqian has left #webapps 03:37:09 xiaoqian has joined #webapps 03:37:25 jgraham: the test suite there is almost all for blob; half of the spec 03:38:45 chaals: File System APIs... 03:38:55 paul has joined #webapps 03:39:25 richt has joined #webapps 03:39:29 sicking: that is more controversial; two proposals (google & mozilla); we have not reached out for other implementers 03:39:39 ... same status mostly as last TPAC 03:39:59 YANG has joined #webapps 03:40:05 ... difference in the APIs is mainly in syntax 03:40:21 ... the mozilla one is smaller and uses promises 03:40:51 jeff has joined #webapps 03:41:01 adrianba: one use case we are interested in; being able to pick a folder or a set of files/folders e.g. for upload - access to a structure that allows tht 03:41:28 ... looking at the google API, the notion of a directory entry is only missing the interface to a picker for that purpose 03:41:33 abarsto has joined #webapps 03:41:50 sicking: both support the idea, but the syntax for bringing up the picker is considered out of scope 03:43:02 ... input-type = multiple files is supported by both, but the use case may not be fully supported 03:43:46 adrianba: do you plan to use promises for filesystem as well? 03:44:31 sicking: we should deprecate file reader after implementation, and add this to the filesystem API using streams tied into promises 03:44:42 Yudong_ has joined #webapps 03:45:04 ... expect this to be a difficult discussion; once we have streams it should be trivial to add 03:45:37 -Shenzhen 03:45:52 zakim, dial shenzhen 03:45:52 ok, ArtB; the call is being made 03:45:54 +Shenzhen 03:45:57 Zakim, who's here? 03:45:57 On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), [IPcaller] 03:45:57 aaa: chrome allows apps to recursively select files in directories; is mozilla interested in that? 03:45:58 On IRC I see Yudong_, ArtB, jeff, YANG, richt, paul, xiaoqian, zqzhang__, lmcliste_, kennyluck, igarashi, jjj_, aboyet, Yudong, jin, aizu, Dayang, bryan, Daniel_Austin, a12u, 03:45:58 ... darobin, zac, myakura, jungkees_, AndroUser2, rniwa, byungjung, JonathanJ 03:46:40 ... directory enumeration to filesystem: 03:46:48 sangrae has joined #webapps 03:47:25 kinuko has joined #webapps 03:47:26 zac has left #webapps 03:47:45 s/aaa:/kinuko/ 03:47:52 sicking: the goal is to have the filesystem protocol supported the same across implementations 03:48:03 ArtB: i think so. 03:48:07 zac has joined #webapps 03:48:20 chaals: any input from the room on directions this should go; what people would like to see implemented 03:49:10 adrianba: seems we want to move this to promises, and expect revisiting async path APIs; seems difficult to see us implementing something that does not use the promises pattern 03:49:14 plh has joined #webapps 03:49:20 ... highest priority is the read-only structure 03:49:41 Rayberg has joined #webapps 03:50:22 sicking: an alternative approach not discussed much so far is to add this to the IndexedDB; the feature set diffs is very small, mostly around the fileysystem scheme, and inline editing of files 03:50:53 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #webapps 03:51:27 ... a feature that is unclear re implementation is inline editing of files 03:52:31 chaals: other things is the ability to share files between apps; using IndexedDB that may be hard; external filesystem based sharing raises security concerns 03:52:59 ... any other plans or uses of filesystem APIs? 03:53:45 Bryan: re Web and TV, need to store large files 03:53:49 … e.g. videos 03:54:07 … one way is file system skin over IDB 03:54:14 … this is an important UC for us 03:54:30 … Want to build a media library 03:54:35 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 03:54:44 Jonas: have you tried storing large files in IDB? 03:54:49 zac1 has joined #webapps 03:54:50 … think perf will not be good 03:55:07 Daniel: thinks SysApps is doing related work in Phase 2 03:55:17 zac1 has left #webapps 03:55:22 Travis has joined #webapps 03:55:32 kochix has joined #webapps 03:55:41 bryan: we still see the use case coming from web & TV re performance and scale as a key goal, but have not yet tested it 03:55:56 hoyang has joined #webapps 03:55:57 Arun's spec is http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html 03:56:06 sicking: the performance is expected to be good even for large files 03:56:46 xxx(paypal): the media storage API in sysapps is intended to support the use case for media 03:56:58 hoyang has left #webapps 03:57:03 (missed question) 03:57:39 hoyang has joined #webapps 03:57:57 topic: IME 03:58:54 s/xxx(paypal)/Daniel/ 03:59:06 xxx(paypal) = Daniel_Austin 03:59:09 richt has joined #webapps 03:59:31 nkic has left #webapps 03:59:39 nkic has joined #webapps 04:00:19 nkic has joined #webapps 04:00:30 garykac has joined #webapps 04:00:31 kochi: current status is 3rd WD aug 15 04:01:06 ... (showing example onf contenteditable with IME) 04:01:31 jjj has joined #webapps 04:02:14 Present+ Takayoshi_Kochi, Kinuko_Yasuda 04:02:40 ... issues with implementation include that the suggestions UI (system window) conflicts with the UI of the text being edited 04:02:52 richt has joined #webapps 04:03:41 richt has joined #webapps 04:03:56 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 04:05:06 ... (discussing more changes from latest ED on slide) 04:06:40 travis: we are pleased that the changes have been moved into the spec; some open questions about the UI overlap issue - would like to avoid issues for IMEs and google's search suggestions 04:07:36 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/tip/proposals/IMEProposal.html 04:07:46 q? 04:08:08 ... also for handling IME for custom editors, we are skeptical of the use cases. it's been suggested that we split that out into a different REC track docs, and get closure on the rest first 04:08:50 kochi: canvas-based editor may make sense to split out 04:09:14 (question missed) 04:10:00 Yudong has joined #webapps 04:10:08 YANG has joined #webapps 04:10:45 kochi: this spec was drafted in the age of windows desktop - though the current API seems desktop-oriented, use in mobiles should address the difference between use of on-screen keyboard and real keyboard 04:10:53 richt has joined #webapps 04:11:28 vvv: we would like one solution, and not have unique APIs for different device use cases; this will be hard for developers otherwise 04:11:54 q+ chaals 04:11:56 wayneCarr has joined #webapps 04:12:01 ... also please explain the use case for enable/disable editing 04:12:07 richt has joined #webapps 04:12:39 kochi: a single API may be not useful for all platforms 04:13:49 igarashi has joined #webapps 04:14:07 q- chaals 04:14:13 q- jeff_ 04:14:24 ... 2nd question re enable/disable; if some extend capabilities beyond what contenteditable provides, it gets complicated to support that with IME 04:14:58 s/vvv/rniwa/ 04:15:47 chaals: chair hat off; re the UI blocking issue, it makes sense that an onscreen keyboard taking the UI space is the same issue as the IME suggestions blocking concern; two solutions for that may seem annoying 04:16:36 kochi: we would like to see a unified API to get notice about blocking events and get window region info 04:16:40 s/(question missed)/What are use cases for enableEditingEvents and disableEditingEvents?/ 04:17:26 ... for devs who want to optimize for desktop vs mobile, we need ways to customize for different platforms 04:18:45 zakim, who's here? 04:18:45 On the phone I see Shenzhen, [IPcaller] 04:18:46 On IRC I see igarashi, richt, YANG, jjj, garykac, nkic, hoyang, kochix, Travis, AndroUser2, TatsuyaIgarashi, Rayberg, plh, kinuko, sangrae, ArtB, paul, xiaoqian, zqzhang__, 04:18:46 ... kennyluck, aboyet, jin, aizu, Dayang, bryan, Daniel_Austin, a12u, darobin 04:18:52 travis: there are not a lot of standards on how on-screen keyboards work 04:19:04 Yudong has joined #webapps 04:19:25 ... not sure if addressing that falls under IME APIs, but this sounds like a good space to establish standards 04:19:39 ArtB: thanks for the url! 04:19:53 MikeSmith: thanks for the url! 04:20:02 kochi: for getting to last call, we may split the spec into UI-related issues, and the editing issues 04:21:26 ... we have also had discussion on events; composition events and locale; beforeinput event and order of events 04:21:29 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #webapps 04:21:49 richt has joined #webapps 04:22:02 ... for future items; writing tests will start once the API is complete 04:22:08 richt has joined #webapps 04:22:32 Daniel_Austin has joined #WebApps 04:23:10 ... API for providing IME for webapps; it makes sense to split this out; having an IME for webapps to invoke makes sense; chrome provides this through a browser extension 04:23:56 sicking: our keyboard API addresses a very different use case; it does not allow a webapp to build its own IME, rather for an app to be the IME for other web pages 04:24:34 ... there are some APIs on some platforms that allow apps to act as IMEs, in the web platform we had to build a new API for that 04:25:06 kochi: so you mean providing IME by the platform and providing IME for specific webapps is different 04:25:55 chaals: that seams reasonable; the accessibility folks are concerned about webapps getting this wrong, whereas the system may do a better job 04:26:24 kochi: we see some use cases e.g. web chat apps that may want to have their own IME 04:27:15 chaals: for our use cases for russian and english etc, we can see the power of the webapp IME 04:27:37 kochi: that's all the input for today 04:27:45 q? 04:28:25 wayneCarr has joined #webapps 04:28:34 rniwa: are you proposing the events issues be addressed in the DOM events? 04:28:47 travis: we should discuss that in the DOM discussion 04:30:01 richt has joined #webapps 04:30:05 chaals: the sense seems to be to separate the parts of the spec 04:30:57 RRSAgent, make minutes 04:30:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 04:31:11 ken has joined #webapps 04:31:38 +[IPcaller.a] 04:31:51 -[IPcaller] 04:33:46 jjj_ has joined #webapps 04:33:51 -[IPcaller.a] 04:34:27 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #webapps 04:38:20 rniwa has joined #webapps 04:38:31 jjj has joined #webapps 04:39:13 kinuko has joined #webapps 04:40:31 kinuko has joined #webapps 04:41:52 jjj__ has joined #webapps 04:42:31 jjj___ has joined #webapps 04:43:14 jjj__ has joined #webapps 04:45:30 jjj_ has joined #webapps 04:52:50 jjj has joined #webapps 04:53:41 jjj has joined #webapps 04:55:21 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 04:55:52 jjj__ has joined #webapps 05:04:12 Wayne_Carr has joined #webapps 05:05:42 btoews has joined #webapps 05:06:58 jjj has joined #webapps 05:11:08 jjj_ has joined #webapps 05:20:12 sgalineau has joined #webapps 05:21:19 sgalineau has joined #webapps 05:21:43 YANG has joined #webapps 05:26:59 mete has joined #webapps 05:31:23 Zakim, passcode? 05:31:23 the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), jcraig 05:31:55 xiaoqian has joined #webapps 05:32:34 abarsto has joined #webapps 05:32:54 ken has joined #webapps 05:33:23 Yudong has joined #webapps 05:33:27 mnot has joined #webapps 05:33:38 +James_Craig 05:34:13 kinuko has joined #webapps 05:34:18 chaals has joined #webapps 05:34:21 ken has joined #webapps 05:34:21 abarsto has joined #webapps 05:35:10 YANG has joined #webapps 05:35:50 jjj has joined #webapps 05:35:57 a12u has joined #webapps 05:36:01 btoews has joined #webapps 05:36:35 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #webapps 05:36:39 jjj has joined #webapps 05:36:58 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger 05:37:27 bin_lee has joined #webapps 05:38:13 myakura has joined #webapps 05:38:18 kinuko has joined #webapps 05:38:33 dom has joined #webapps 05:38:33 I can't really hear anything either 05:39:05 kennyluck has joined #webapps 05:39:09 aizu has joined #webapps 05:39:15 scribenick: ArtB 05:39:20 Scribe+ ArtB 05:39:21 rniwa has joined #webapps 05:39:24 plh has joined #webapps 05:39:31 Topic: Joint Meeting with IndieUI WG 05:39:38 adrianba has joined #webapps 05:40:04 aboyet has joined #webapps 05:40:14 ArtB: notes, new people include Jania, Michael Cooper, RichS (phone), and some others 05:40:22 byungjung has joined #webapps 05:40:23 MichaelC has joined #webapps 05:40:38 CN: introduces the Indie UI people 05:40:45 … basic topic is IndieUI spec 05:40:52 … was rewritten last week 05:41:12 Jania: thanks for meeting with us 05:41:19 Arno has joined #webapps 05:41:21 … we want to share Early in our spec dev 05:41:25 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#intro 05:41:35 … perhaps WebApps will take some of this over at some point 05:41:42 … User Prefs is one spec 05:41:49 … called "User Context" 05:41:56 annevk has joined #webapps 05:41:56 From intro: "The specification below adds several new "Media Features" to detect user settings, using existing syntax defined in the CSS3 Media Queries specification, and provides an access control extension to the MediaQueryList interface defined in the CSSOM View Model. " 05:41:57 … now looking at using Media Queries 05:42:12 "Because this approach relies so heavily on features that overlap with work maintained by the CSS Working Group and Web Applications Working Group, it is likely that portions or all of this specification may move under the purview these other groups. At a minimum, the IndieUI Working Group requests guidance and a collaborative working relationship with CSS and WebApps." 05:42:25 JC: I posted some things into IRC 05:42:38 Ryladog has joined #webapps 05:42:41 Scribenick: abarsto 05:42:43 csjung has joined #webapps 05:42:44 garykac has joined #webapps 05:42:52 … some overlaps with CSS WG and WebApps 05:43:02 Travis has joined #webapps 05:43:18 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 05:43:33 … there is a new privacy model 05:43:38 … limit set of MQ features 05:44:13 masatakayakura has joined #webapps 05:44:14 denis has joined #webapps 05:44:19 … want to customize UX 05:44:25 … for some web sites 05:44:35 … want to use MQ syntax if it fits in 05:44:40 jcraig: enums should use hyphens 05:44:45 jcraig: or just be words 05:44:59 igarashi has joined #webapps 05:44:59 jcraig: e.g. "arraybuffer", not "arrayBuffer" 05:45:13 ken_ has joined #webapps 05:45:36 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#example-restricted-call-to-matchmedia 05:45:47 kochi5 has joined #webapps 05:45:56 -Shenzhen 05:46:06 zakim, dial shenzhen 05:46:06 ok, abarsto; the call is being made 05:46:08 +Shenzhen 05:46:24 LeiWANG has joined #webapps 05:46:28 cyril has joined #webapps 05:47:05 jin has joined #webapps 05:47:14 JC: 05:47:39 edoyle has joined #webapps 05:48:18 cyns has joined #webapps 05:48:24 If you're asking me anything, please scribe, b/c I cannot hear the phone. 05:48:29 JS: we met with CSS WG today 05:48:39 … they will look at our spec and give us feedback 05:48:56 When the author first attempts to check the 'matches' property of the query, the user agent will determine that this is a restricted setting, and immediately return false, so the first call to this function on the initial page load will never result in audio descriptions being enabled. 05:49:01 Gary: re D3E, wondering about fingerprinting and keyboard layout 05:49:07 Note: The immediate return is critical to prevent blocking threads, as well as eliminating potential abuse by fingerprinting scripts attempting to determine uniqueness using execution time of the synchronous call to mql.matches. 05:49:16 However, at the same time, the user will be prompted to decide whether or not to share their media alternative settings with the requesting web site. 05:49:22 … we need to support customized keyboards 05:49:25 The web author can register for a change listener on this media query list, and the event handler will be called asynchronously when the user agrees to share their media settings. 05:49:29 … need some UX for that 05:49:44 … We should talk with you in the D3E context 05:50:01 CN: not sure this effectively solves the fingerprinting prob 05:50:18 When the user prompted, matchMedia returns false (or default value) immediately, and only provides the updated match asynchronously through matchMedia().addEventListener or subsequent requests to matchMedia().matches (e.g. on page reload) so there is never any detectable difference between "No" and "You don't need to know." 05:50:23 … my concern is that you have uninformed and no consent 05:50:30 … forces user to give consent 05:50:33 A restricted @media block never prompts the user unless both the @media block and an included selector matches. 05:50:41 For example:L 05:50:57 Katie: under privacy laws, have to give consent 05:51:07 … on what can be done with fingerprint info 05:51:14 … otherwise, can get legal suits 05:51:30 CN: not sure international laws re fingerprinting will work 05:51:37 @media (subtitles) { .videoCaptions { display: block; /* custom rendered captions */ } } 05:51:56 … the tech approach of using MQ for detailed browser sniffing 05:52:01 … MQ can do the job 05:52:10 bryan has joined #webapps 05:52:12 … Don't think anyone is saying no, don't use that 05:52:22 … but I am skeptical about the privacy story 05:52:26 kochix has joined #webapps 05:52:34 Ryosuke: agree with Chaals 05:52:45 … can't rely on the laws to save us here 05:53:03 Gary: if we expose this in any way, you won't be satisfied? 05:53:06 When we spoke with CSS, they agreed that some of these media features made sense, but the privacy/restriction model may be outside the scope of CSS WG. We think its within the scope of WebApps… 05:53:21 … not sure it is quite so clear 05:53:27 … is there an impasse here 05:53:39 … not sure where we go with this 05:53:46 CN: not about acceptable or not 05:54:00 … but saying it will protect your privacy is overselling 05:54:03 The other aspect about this that I'd like to bring to the WG's attention is currently a todo in the draft: 05:54:10 … don't see it as an impasse 05:54:22 … but if the privacy system doesn't protect privacy 05:54:28 Add justification interface on a per-category setting (possibly meta tag or a partial interface on document). Justification string may be defined by an new JavaScript interface, or perhaps by a meta tag in the document head, such as: 05:54:28 05:54:39 … need to recognize their are implications of providing more info 05:54:40 Justification string would be included in the user prompt. 05:54:54 CN: I'm not saying `don't do this` 05:54:59 We think this is broader in scope than just this MQ proposal. 05:55:05 … but *I* am unconvinced 05:55:08 baaaah 05:55:17 We already lost the fingerprinting battle 05:55:18 … privacy protection is sufficient 05:55:20 With HTTP 05:55:23 It's called etag 05:55:42 CN: encourage you to take this to Privacy Interest Group 05:55:43 kennyluck has joined #webapps 05:55:53 For example, there is currently no way for a site to explain to the user, when prompted, why it's requesting Location data. Map sites are obvious, but others not as much. 05:56:06 AvK: I think we already lost the fingerprinting battle 05:56:31 … don't think we can win this 05:56:38 Travis: but we should try 05:56:40 AndroUser has joined #webapps 05:57:17 Eliot has joined #webapps 05:57:18 CN: agree fundamentally the fingerprinting battle is lost 05:57:33 … this could minmize the fingerprinting 05:57:36 Yudong has joined #webapps 05:57:55 … agree with Travis and this approach can help minimize exposure 05:58:06 … but there will always be some unprotection 05:58:20 Katie: technology is not the way privacy is protected currently 05:58:23 darobin has joined #webapps 05:58:26 … at some point that may change 05:58:38 WG, do you agree the "justification" string idea may be useful for Location sharing as well as this idea? 05:58:53 … If some org doesn't do what they said they will do, there can be 05:58:58 … reprucussions 05:59:23 CN: this could be reasonably protective in some countries 05:59:46 … in some countries there aren't good laws 06:00:09 Gary: if there a bunch of MQs, is there going to be just one dialog? 06:00:16 Marcus_Altman has joined #webapps 06:00:16 … or some choice? 06:00:21 … is that all in scope 06:00:28 JS: I don't think we have worked that out 06:00:39 … but I don't think we want to overburden the user 06:00:51 CN: I would expect that to be an impl detail for the browsers 06:01:04 JC: if there are many MQs, I expect just one dialog 06:01:07 Add justification interface on a per-category setting (possibly meta tag or a partial interface on document). Justification string may be defined by an new JavaScript interface, or perhaps by a meta tag in the document head, such as: 06:01:08 06:01:12 … take a look at the ToC 06:01:13 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#toc 06:01:32 … there are diff categories 06:01:53 masatakayakura has joined #webapps 06:02:37 jungkees_ has joined #webapps 06:02:41 CN: if user changes devices or device state often (e.g. sound on/off) 06:02:49 ken has joined #webapps 06:02:58 … don't want to constrain the browser 06:03:12 dezell has joined #webapps 06:03:19 … Good impls will decide to make it easy for user 06:03:20 For example, matchMedia('(subtitles)') and matchMedia('(subtitle-type: cc)') would only prompt the user once, because the media feature types are related. 06:03:27 ken has joined #webapps 06:03:28 … or to provide power control to the user 06:03:37 specifics of prompt will be UA implementation details 06:03:38 droh__ has joined #webapps 06:03:38 … but I don't think the spec should constrain the options 06:04:05 For example, there is currently no way for a site to explain to the user, when prompted, why it's requesting Location data. Map sites are obvious, but others not as much. 06:04:09 Stone has joined #webapps 06:04:35 zqzhang__ has joined #webapps 06:04:36 JC: 06:04:57 the "justification" string idea could be used in Location prompts as well. 06:05:01 Cynthina: IE uses vendor prefix for MQ and high constrast 06:05:05 … setting part of OS 06:05:21 … UA can use that setting 06:05:24 So the site can specify to the user why it wants to use this information 06:05:29 … simple from authoring perspective 06:05:47 CN: I haven't heard anyone say `no, this approach is not sound` 06:05:57 -ms-high-contrast values are *very* specific to Microsoft's implementation 06:05:59 jjj has joined #webapps 06:06:02 JS: summary … go ahead; nuance the privacy story 06:06:09 … tell the story correctly 06:06:15 … go talk to PING 06:06:48 and I think -ms-high-contrast can generalized into media features for contrast-increased, user-color, and user-background-color. 06:06:49 kinuko has joined #webapps 06:06:50 Ryoskue: re the requests, different syntax than in DOM spec 06:07:11 s/Ryoskue/Ryosuke/ 06:07:14 … would be good to consolidate the events that are now in diff specs 06:07:32 Yudong has joined #webapps 06:07:37 CN: re the events stuff, yes, we need serious coordination 06:07:56 darobin has joined #webapps 06:08:17 Jania: I accept the request to coordinate with the events 06:08:26 … we are hoping to get to LC by EoYear 06:08:51 James: did you mean UIEvents spec or Context spec? 06:09:10 CN: we should have a separate discussion about events 06:09:24 Gary: keyboard layout is another coordination point 06:09:30 … I should be the contact point 06:09:35 Or something else related to "Events", IRC log is limited and phone call is unintelligible 06:09:40 CN: James, that's Gary you should talk to 06:10:09 Topic: DOM 3 Events & UI Events 06:10:24 nkic has joined #webapps 06:10:29 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 06:10:31 Daniel_Austin_ has joined #WebApps 06:10:40 (For the record, it's done here: http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/ ) 06:11:17 lol @abarsto 06:11:33 myakura has joined #webapps 06:12:05 CN: < a bit of a digression on why D3E is done in one WG and DOM4 done in a separate group > 06:12:09 YANG_ has joined #webapps 06:12:10 richt has joined #webapps 06:12:11 dyang has joined #webapps 06:12:53 Rayberg has joined #webapps 06:13:07 dennisdmac has joined #webapps 06:13:14 Rich: what about the device specific events? 06:13:28 CN: we are about to talk about DOM 3 Events now 06:13:44 -James_Craig 06:14:00 ScribeNick: adrianba 06:14:08 TOPIC: D3E and UI Events 06:14:21 gary: we have another LCWD for DOM3 Events 06:14:29 ... we think this is really the last one 06:14:40 RRSAgent, make minutes 06:14:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html abarsto 06:14:44 ... we just released a WD a week or two ago 06:14:45 Scribe+ Adrian 06:14:54 ... expect to have another LCWD in dec or jan 06:14:56 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 06:15:02 ... we have made a bunch of changes we'd like people to review 06:15:06 naka has joined #webapps 06:15:08 lmclist__ has joined #webapps 06:15:09 ... so that we have a good LCWD draft 06:15:14 ... want to summarise the changes 06:15:30 ... not to discuss but so you know where to read if you have comments 06:15:40 ... we took the deprecated stuff and put it into an appendix 06:15:49 taocai has joined #webapps 06:15:51 ... examples don't use deprecated stuff 06:15:53 D3E bugs: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=DOM3%20Events&list_id=29721&product=WebAppsWG&resolution=--- 06:15:57 ... for example char went away 06:16:06 ... locale got removed from D3E 06:16:18 ... currently a BCP47 string which is too general 06:16:23 I'm confused. Isn't char implemented? 06:16:31 ... need to think about this so we move it into UIEvents to do later 06:16:46 ... this is the first version that talks about beforeinput and input 06:16:59 ... we rely on them as a replacement for keypress event 06:17:08 ... keypress is deprecated event 06:17:12 hoyang has joined #webapps 06:17:20 darobin_ has joined #webapps 06:17:21 Eliot has joined #webapps 06:17:24 ... beforeinput is fired, then DOM is updated, then input is fired 06:17:38 ... click and double-click suggested all buttons should fire click and double-click 06:17:44 ... this is only for primary button 06:17:54 ... on composition events we spent time on order of firing events 06:18:00 kinuko has joined #webapps 06:18:03 ... composition events relative to input events 06:18:17 ... dead keys are handled like small IMEs with composition events 06:18:29 ... earlier versions had special handling for dead key values 06:18:42 ... tried to specify event ordering - little more formal than before 06:18:52 ... the last thing is the relationship with DOM 2 Events 06:19:03 ... DOM2 had unspecified keycode attribute 06:19:13 ... in general DOM3 is an improvement, superset of DOM2 06:19:20 ... but it isn't for some key character information 06:19:40 ... previously you could tell which physical key was pressed - cannot do this with key event in DOM3 06:19:51 ... code attribute in UI Events will handle this scenario 06:20:08 ... if we want DOM3 to be full superset then we should consider moving code into DOM3 06:20:18 ... if people have thoughts on that they should let us know 06:20:22 chaals has joined #webapps 06:20:28 ... i think we should move it in but others want to avoid delays 06:20:38 ... biggest concern is lack of test coverage 06:20:45 ... that is an area of focus now 06:21:31 q+ 06:21:32 annevk: question about legacy stuff 06:21:46 ... do you think you can get it removed from chrome? 06:21:52 gary: which legacy stuff? 06:22:03 annevk: the things you're proposing to remove 06:22:26 I will ask my question here: 06:22:28 gary: you're wondering when we're likely to get rid of keychar and keycode? 06:22:44 ... they will live as long as web sites need them to be around - we need a good spec to replace them 06:22:53 ... don't see them going away soon 06:23:03 ... i don't have a timeframe on that 06:23:18 rich: Why is there a MouseEvent Constructor in UIEvents and not with the MouseEvent in DOM3? 06:23:38 garykac: so that seems kinda contrary to how we define many features 06:23:50 garykac: basically, if a user agent needs to implement in order to be competitive, we should define how it works 06:24:09 gary: i think people were trying to finish DOM3 and other new stuff went into UI Events 06:24:26 zakim, ack richardschwerdtfeger 06:24:26 I see no one on the speaker queue 06:24:31 garykac: not defining how the web works is bad for newcomers, and we've had that situation for these events for a long time 06:24:31 ... i think we should merge but this would delay DOM3 06:24:41 kochix_ has joined #webapps 06:24:54 richardschwerdtfeger: the problem with this is we don't know what to refer to - is one going to go away 06:25:25 (Referring to this as DOM3 is hugely confusing btw. We should really name both "UI Events".) 06:25:25 chaals: when figuring this out for SVG you don't know which spec to rely on 06:25:37 gary: we have an appendix telling you the old way and saying don't do this 06:25:41 Rich: In SVG2 we are trying to know what to refer to with respect to events as they are defined in two separate places. What should we reference for mouse events? 06:25:53 ... but this is a good example of why moving things from UI Events into D3E would help 06:25:56 tao has joined #webapps 06:26:16 ... for the constructor I don't think there is a big risk - we could move them into D3E 06:26:24 Rich: I agree with Adrian 06:26:46 jjj_ has joined #webapps 06:27:06 Travis: if we can get things in and stabilise them then that sounds good 06:27:07 adrian: you stated: but this is a good example of why moving things from UI Events into D3E would help 06:27:13 Rich: I agreed 06:27:19 chaals: the question was about constructors and code attribute 06:27:28 annevk: that suggestion has been made for ages 06:27:38 garykac: name it UI Events too then! 06:27:42 heycam: i think one of the problems with the question which version do we reference from SVG 06:27:44 garykac: backport the name 06:27:49 ... it really doesn't matter 06:27:53 Rich: SVG2 is going to last call at the end of the year. we need something that is clear 06:27:56 ... we don't rely on the constructor 06:28:04 ... so whichever you care about 06:28:06 q+ 06:28:21 ... so reference the latest one and consider earlier ones if you want 06:28:44 chaals: known issue at W3C of having specs out of sync 06:29:01 ... sounds like the sensible thing is to look at the modern spec and use it as your working reference 06:29:15 ... if you run into trouble you can consider process hoops for changing reference 06:29:29 Rich: what is "modern"? 06:29:35 ... but now it is more common to publish Rec based on draft spec if the part you depend on is stable enough 06:30:06 gary: considering UI Events was primary given constructors and code attribute 06:30:21 ... it was a dumping ground for feautures we didn't think would make it into D3E 06:30:28 ... we would only have a couple of small things left 06:30:33 [UIEvents is more modern than DOM3, DOM4 is more modern again, If I got it right...] 06:30:34 Rich: but keyboard events is now fully specified in UI events separate from the DOM3 spec. 06:30:56 chaals: questions on D3E or UI Events? 06:31:17 TOPIC: Quota API 06:31:20 q- 06:31:36 kinuko: quota api status 06:31:38 yang has joined #webapps 06:31:44 ... just published new WD beginning of this month 06:31:49 ... API is still very small 06:32:14 ... two apis - query current usage status and to request new quota for application 06:32:24 ... in the new draft they are both promises 06:32:30 ... previously callback based 06:32:40 ... also added quota storage change events 06:32:42 richardschwerdtfeger: keyboard events are not fully specified in UI Events. Only the additional KeyboardEvent info live there at the moment. 06:32:49 ... so apps can watch how usage is increased 06:32:53 http://www.w3.org/TR/quota-api/ 06:33:06 ... new draft has changes that lose compat from old version 06:33:14 We need to reference the actual event interface definition 06:33:15 shepazu has joined #webapps 06:33:21 ... we wanted to make it work better with other promise based apis 06:33:33 ... including imagined ones like service worker 06:33:54 Once we move |code| into DOM3, then DOM3 will have a complete KeyboardEvent specification 06:33:59 ... previous api was only implemented by chrome - would like to get more support from other browser vendors on new version 06:34:15 ... think this api is very important for mobile web apps using local storage 06:34:19 http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#events-keyboardevents and https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm#keyboard-event-interface 06:34:27 so it is defined in two different places 06:34:31 ... for web apps and user to agree on how much data can be stored on local device 06:34:43 ... should be addressed in unified way not in each storage api 06:34:48 ... would appreciate comments 06:35:03 chaals: obvious question is to implementors 06:35:15 plh has joined #webapps 06:35:32 sicking: mozilla are very interested in implementing this - doesn't mean we are fully happy with api 06:35:45 ... looks great so far but need the person actually implementing to review 06:35:47 rich: which this? 06:35:51 ken has joined #webapps 06:35:51 chaals: does that mean you have someone on this? 06:35:57 sicking: not yet 06:36:29 ken has joined #webapps 06:36:32 sgalineau has joined #webapps 06:36:56 chaals: no current plans or comments from others? 06:37:01 ... probably two implementations at some point 06:37:14 ... sounds like we will get comments and presumably the spec will move forward 06:37:25 sgalineau has joined #webapps 06:37:37 Travis: haven't looked at the spec in detail 06:38:05 ... most browsers will have a quota management experience, not sure about the API, i know in IE the browser will prompt me 06:38:07 q? 06:38:24 annevk: one comment on the IDL - it uses array that is going away 06:38:34 ... seems like some of this will need to change - not sure how 06:38:49 paul has joined #webapps 06:38:54 ... what travis said sort of makes sense - pretty hard to ask the user about amount of space 06:39:00 ... platforms we compete with don't do this 06:39:14 ... seems like we should strive for this if we want to compete with native platforms 06:39:29 ... for example heuristics about how often the app or site is used 06:39:46 chaals: Flash apps annoy me because they ask me to allocate memory all the time 06:40:05 ... agree with anne that the implementation is going to be combination of talking to the user and doing things for the user 06:40:29 ... overspecifying is probably not going to be helpful but being able to request more memory for an app seems like an okay thing to do 06:40:34 ... basic idea seems okay 06:40:45 ... perhaps browser can grant request without the user 06:40:51 ... [some examples given] 06:41:05 ... does seem like makes sense and important to compete with other platforms 06:41:10 heycam` has joined #webapps 06:41:13 kinuko: this API defines two types of storage 06:41:20 ... temporary and persistent 06:41:31 ... temp can probably be used without prompt but could be deleted 06:41:38 ... slightly different experience to native apps 06:41:55 ... for web apps people might visit site and then never return 06:42:04 ... browsers need a way to know to delete data if they want 06:42:06 q+ 06:42:24 sicking: to answer a couple of questions 06:42:28 q+ to suggest bookmarking could be used as a hint for persistence 06:42:39 ... our goal is to prompt users as little as possible for current apis 06:42:39 RRSAgent, make minutes 06:42:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html abarsto 06:42:59 ... we have temporary storage and because we're doing apps thing 06:43:15 ... for apps installed or bookmarked or whatever we can provide persistent storage 06:43:22 ... blown away when user uninstalls 06:43:34 ... what travis said about prompting is what we did in firefox so far 06:43:51 ... devs don't have to worry but bad that many developers want to manage when prompts come up 06:44:06 Present+ Anne_van_Kesteren, Alex_Russell, Richard_Tibbett, Mark_Nottingham 06:44:07 ... they want to forewarn users to let them know why they get a prompt 06:44:23 ... have thought about ability to put quota manager in automatic mode 06:44:34 ... whether that should be default behaviour i don't know 06:44:44 ... that's not in draft - only thing i think might be missing 06:44:55 q- 06:45:10 richardschwerdtfeger has left #webapps 06:45:24 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger 06:46:01 sicking: being able to say that persistent storage doesn't deny when hitting quota then the browser just prompts 06:46:08 ... adds complexity for implementation 06:46:28 naka_ has joined #webapps 06:46:40 kinuko: we thought about this and tried to implement but suspending execution of storage api while showing prompts tended to make things very complicated 06:46:51 ... also cannot predict when prompts will be shown 06:46:55 q+ to ask what's the story for Chrome OS? 06:47:06 ... we share same experience but this is why we excluded this option 06:47:34 kinuko: if we did this in an automatic way do you mean we wouldn't need api? 06:47:45 sicking: this would be an additional piece of the api 06:48:01 Yudong has joined #webapps 06:48:06 chaals: this would be an addition to make browser keep prompting when anyone else would be denied 06:48:16 ... worth thinking about but can see issues in practice 06:48:25 sicking: that behaviour is in gecko right now 06:48:32 ... was default behaviour in indexed db 06:48:50 ... we would keep prompting - eventually if you keep saying yes then we give you whatever you want 06:49:02 ... developers were not in control of when prompts happen which was bad 06:49:11 chaals: not sure how bad it was 06:49:18 ... not in control of when you run out of memory 06:49:35 kinuko: spec doesn't explicitly say when to show prompt 06:49:40 ... in chrome we don't show every time 06:49:50 ken has joined #webapps 06:49:52 garykac has joined #webapps 06:49:57 ... might be session based 06:50:08 ... not sure if it should be more specifically speced - left to implementations 06:50:09 q? 06:50:24 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 06:50:34 zakim, ack annevk 06:50:34 annevk, you wanted to ask what's the story for Chrome OS? 06:50:35 I see no one on the speaker queue 06:50:35 annevk: could imagine model where every web page gets 100MB of temp space 06:50:44 ... browser might drop this 06:50:54 ... if you bookmark something then you get persistent storage 06:51:12 ... site might advocate to the user to bookmark to make it part of the user's ecosystem 06:51:25 ... seems hard to prompt user for 100MB -what does this mean? 06:51:32 ... how did you solve this in chrome os? 06:51:55 kinuko: we don't really solve the problem - we have two types of apps 06:51:59 ... installed and linked 06:52:04 Tomoyuki1 has joined #webapps 06:52:10 abarsto: I have no slides. was informed I'd be leading this only this morning 06:52:10 ... app can say it wants storage and is prompted during installation 06:52:33 ... we build many important apps as installed packaged apps 06:52:37 tao has joined #webapps 06:52:41 sicking: we do similar in firefox os 06:52:44 abarsto: but if you have the projector, might be useful to have this document up on screen: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/blob/master/explainer.md 06:53:14 chaals: there are some apps that i want to store lots of data even though i only use them every 6 months 06:53:35 richt has joined #webapps 06:53:38 ... not sure how to solve that automatically or by asking users questions they understand 06:54:02 chaals: we are expecting sysapps in 5 mins - suggest 5 min break 06:54:15 chaals: let's have a break 06:54:30 richt has joined #webapps 06:54:38 … that's a *5* min break! 06:55:05 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 06:55:31 ken_ has joined #webapps 06:56:27 johnny__ has joined #webapps 06:56:58 cwdoh has joined #webapps 06:58:19 byungjung has joined #webapps 06:58:22 csjung has joined #webapps 06:58:31 Toshiya_ has joined #webapps 06:58:38 kennyluck has joined #webapps 06:58:52 saki has joined #webapps 06:58:56 Tomoyuki has joined #webapps 06:59:10 johnny_ has joined #webapps 06:59:45 nsakai2 has joined #webapps 07:00:18 wonsuk has joined #webapps 07:01:05 jungkees has joined #webapps 07:01:36 johnny_ has joined #webapps 07:02:06 hoyang has joined #webapps 07:02:46 denis has joined #webapps 07:02:52 zakim, who's here? 07:02:52 On the phone I see Shenzhen 07:02:54 On IRC I see denis, hoyang, johnny_, jungkees, wonsuk, nsakai2, Tomoyuki, saki, kennyluck, Toshiya_, csjung, byungjung, cwdoh, ken_, tao, garykac, heycam`, paul, sgalineau, plh, 07:02:54 ... shepazu, yang, jjj_, kochix_, chaals, kinuko, Eliot, darobin_ 07:02:57 scripe: Travis 07:03:02 scribeNick: Travis 07:03:13 Topic: ServiceWorkers 07:03:42 jinsong has joined #webapps 07:03:51 naka has joined #webapps 07:03:51 btoews has joined #webapps 07:03:51 Alex: Will provide brief explainer of Service Workers 07:04:03 dyang has joined #webapps 07:04:04 richt has joined #webapps 07:04:23 richt has joined #webapps 07:04:33 ... attempt to provide background scripting to manage stuff that is hard to capture/handle. 07:04:48 virginie has joined #webapps 07:04:51 JonathanJ has joined #webapps 07:04:51 ... offline bootstrapping is hard--Service Workers can address this concern 07:04:54 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 07:05:10 ... they are like shared workers, but lifetime is versioned. 07:05:25 nkic has joined #webapps 07:05:26 ... like background extensions in Chrome 07:05:28 Mohammed_ has joined #webapps 07:05:47 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 07:05:58 ... general idea is core of the system is to register a script that can run with a url pattern 07:06:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:06:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ 07:06:12 ... handle events in an async way. 07:06:13 Anders has joined #webapps 07:06:26 ... no synchronous APIs (unlike shared workers) 07:06:41 ... status-- happening in github 07:06:54 ... intent is to bring the work to Web Apps WG 07:07:13 ... since webapps wanted to handle the offline use case, service workers should be a good fit. 07:07:22 ... Chrome is prototyping to see if it's suitable 07:07:33 ito has joined #webapps 07:07:38 q+ 07:07:44 Ryu: what are the use cases? 07:07:57 Alex: primary use case is offline problem 07:07:59 cwdoh has joined #webapps 07:08:40 ... didn't scale well 07:09:02 ... appcache didn't quite work for all the scnearios that apps needed. 07:09:28 ... had to either use IDB or local storage, but these aren't well suited for URL management and fetching. 07:10:00 ... you want to have hierarchy or list of caches to independently manage. 07:10:14 sho has joined #webapps 07:10:21 ... other use cases: alarms API, push notifications, data sync in background (less fleshed out) 07:10:25 kkubota2_ has joined #webapps 07:10:26 dka has joined #webapps 07:10:48 ... there was a name change, but not so far along on the details of those use cases 07:10:55 zakim, ack shepazu 07:10:55 I see no one on the speaker queue 07:10:57 ack sh 07:11:00 shepazu: Does it persist from navigation to navigation? 07:11:05 johnny has joined #webapps 07:11:10 mizuman_ has joined #webapps 07:11:22 ... one use case may go beyond offline, and provide animations, or persistent audio? 07:11:23 naka has joined #webapps 07:11:26 edoyle has joined #webapps 07:11:28 Dong-Young_Lee has joined #webapps 07:11:39 .. have you thought about using it like a proxy between page loads? 07:11:51 Alex: no visual component (just background execution context) 07:12:00 ... it can coordinate between pages, etc. 07:12:02 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 07:12:13 boryung has joined #webapps 07:12:20 ... to smoothly move from online -> offline world, you need to bootstrap the service worker. 07:12:33 ... first need to install the service worker. 07:12:44 zqzhang has joined #webapps 07:12:47 ... after that you get the next doc installed under the service worker. 07:13:11 ... there will just be one instance of the service worker (not multiple) 07:13:24 igarashi has joined #webapps 07:13:31 cwdoh_ has joined #webapps 07:13:42 shepazu: CSS resources? How would it work with it? 07:13:44 q? 07:13:46 Alex: not sure. 07:13:47 q+ 07:13:58 ... CSS is local to a single running doc. 07:14:11 ... but without rendering, not sure how it would integrate. 07:14:30 q+ 07:14:34 mounir_ has joined #webapps 07:14:34 q+ 07:14:37 q- adrianb 07:14:44 johnny has joined #webapps 07:14:55 adrianba: If the app is listening for fetching... does this have perf implications on network requests? 07:15:05 Alex: Still trying to get data on this. 07:15:11 Ruinan has joined #webapps 07:15:23 ... the async nature makes this feel a lot like Node.js authoring. 07:15:39 ... fetch event can only respond with promises. 07:16:08 johnny_ has joined #webapps 07:16:27 ... a storm of requests will block based on the service worker being a single thread. 07:16:57 Daniel (ebay): What are the security implications, threats, and countermeasures you are planning? 07:17:20 Alex: Jonas has helped look into the security issues. 07:17:31 ... biggest impacting problem is... 07:18:52 Travis_ has joined #webapps 07:19:25 Alex: We welcome any review. 07:19:46 Daniel (ebay): what is the physically security of a local-stored service worker? 07:20:14 Yudong has joined #webapps 07:20:18 gwm has joined #webapps 07:20:21 thinker has joined #webapps 07:20:26 Alex: Service worker is backed by HTTP cache-like thing. Code itself is stored as per browser's code storage permission model. 07:20:32 HTTP cache is dead, long live HTTP cache /cc mnot 07:20:41 krijnh has joined #webapps 07:20:41 johnny has joined #webapps 07:20:54 ... should be comperable to the browser's local security model. Not sure there's more security layers to add on top of that. 07:21:15 q? 07:21:15 ... It's a cache-wide problem, not just for service-worker 07:21:20 q- chaals 07:21:36 chaals: When a CSS page refers to other pages @import. 07:21:42 ... how are these managed? 07:21:58 johnny_ has joined #webapps 07:22:18 Alex: Initial service worker kicks in. 07:22:30 ... initial CSS goes to the service worker... 07:22:42 ... sub-downloads hit the sevice worker serially as they come in. 07:23:05 richt has joined #webapps 07:23:07 ... like the service worker is a virutal networking layer. It sees the fully-formed request. 07:23:12 q- bryan 07:23:14 johnny has joined #webapps 07:23:20 q? 07:23:36 q+ plh 07:23:46 Bryan: Says you can defer loading. 07:23:49 richt has joined #webapps 07:23:54 ... Tell me more? 07:24:09 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 07:24:11 Alex: The service worker will see all requests once it's set up. 07:24:29 ... non-http requests are not speced to be handled. 07:24:42 chaals: not data: 07:25:05 cwdoh has joined #webapps 07:25:07 bryan: 07:25:14 ... does it interact with XHR? 07:25:14 Yudong has joined #webapps 07:25:17 Alex: yes 07:25:29 richt has joined #webapps 07:25:30 ... think about this like Mod.Proxy for the browser. 07:25:50 Come on, someone ask something tricky 07:25:54 Like how this works with sync XHR 07:25:55 tao has joined #webapps 07:25:59 (it doesn't) 07:25:59 ... XHR requests eventually filter through to service worker 07:26:15 annevk: wait, I thought you said "hard" 07:26:19 bryan: For offline: you should be able to package server code in the client 07:26:43 johnny_ has joined #webapps 07:26:46 Alex: yes, but the patterns for app construction in flux. 07:27:16 q+ 07:27:19 ... today we think of server requests first, but with service workers, alternative scenarios are enabled. 07:27:37 q? 07:27:42 q- plh 07:27:45 ... we're not defining the cannonical way of doing offline. 07:27:48 q+ rich 07:27:59 plh: Is there a use case for the web app to know what is offline? 07:28:29 ken has joined #webapps 07:28:33 Alex: yes, it's specifically designed into the system. 07:29:06 ... so that when you're offline, you can have a pre-populated set of data (part of the installation model) 07:29:24 q- mnot 07:29:37 Mark: Service worker will not go to the browser's cache? 07:29:55 ... you could create your own cache? 07:30:13 richt has joined #webapps 07:30:21 Alex: If you hit the network, you still go through the normal network, including the http cache 07:30:41 ... it's only a detail that service worker updates themselves work around this. 07:30:59 aboyet has joined #webapps 07:31:18 ... otherwise, its the burden/logic of the service worker to handle any other case like fallback to missing live info. 07:31:39 Mark: there is lots of flexibility. Coolness. 07:31:41 q- rich 07:31:42 q+ 07:31:55 Richt: Sounds like 4 things merged into one. 07:32:07 ... seems like you've invented http primitives. 07:32:16 ... could we use that outside of service workers? 07:32:19 naka_ has joined #webapps 07:32:26 RRSAgent, make minutes 07:32:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith 07:32:37 Alex: goal is to enable offline and than abstract it out. 07:32:52 ... we're trying to make sure we're aligned with Anne's Fetch algorithm. 07:32:52 jehoochen has joined #webapps 07:33:16 ... so we may also be able to expose caches objects... but these are secondary goals. 07:33:25 ... primarily it needs to solve the main use case, first. 07:33:49 i/We welcome any review/scribe: Travis_/ 07:33:53 heycam`: How does the service worker determine to fallback to the network? 07:33:55 RRSAgent, make minutes 07:33:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith 07:34:11 Alex: Service worker can't include XHR (because of it's sync-option) 07:34:33 ... the service worker allows you to connect requests with responses arbitrarily. 07:35:10 heycam`: Are you forced to use fetch, or can you do something else? 07:35:15 Alex: just ignore the request. 07:35:28 Travis_: yeah, explicitly, don't call e.respondWith() 07:35:34 heycam`: Seems like many new scenarios come out of this... 07:35:47 q+ to ask about the plan is to create a WebIDL interface definition for ServiceWorker or more broadly an actual spec of ServiceWorker 07:35:50 q+ 07:36:04 israelh has joined #WebApps 07:36:04 Alex: yes. 07:36:17 denis has joined #webapps 07:36:18 ken has joined #webapps 07:36:23 q- heycam` 07:36:33 israelh has joined #webapps 07:36:39 Jonas: Allows a lot of combinations of scenarios. You don't have to respone 1:1 with each request now. 07:36:50 ... can do server-side templating. 07:36:53 q+ 07:37:04 MikeSmith: Notices we don't have a spec???!!!! 07:37:04 q- MikeSmith 07:37:13 dennisdmac has joined #webapps 07:37:15 slightlyoff: so what is the idea for sync XHR again? 07:37:23 ... Expected a WebIDL????!!!! 07:37:26 annevk: sync is only sync from the perspective of the document 07:37:30 oh MikeSmith <3 07:37:38 chaals: Already covered :0) 07:37:47 efullea_ has joined #webapps 07:37:58 Alex: I'll get the spec together after we get through the existing github bugs 07:38:05 tao has joined #webapps 07:38:08 q- mnot 07:38:09 slightlyoff: I guess, but if the SW messages the document and awaits a reply, it's dead 07:38:22 btoews has joined #webapps 07:38:41 mnot: How do you minimize duplication between http-cache and synthetic caches. Also resource management: do you prompt the user. 07:38:54 q+ 07:39:09 Alex: On duplication. Could be cheap. 07:39:24 hoyang has joined #webapps 07:39:42 adrianba_ has joined #webapps 07:39:58 ... on the storage level, you can have more persistent info that doesn't get cache-evicted. 07:40:09 ... on storage limits, we don't have this solved. 07:40:53 ... there's no distinction for some storage technologies for persistent vs. not (it's all just file-system) 07:41:05 ... and other open issues. Working on fleshing these out. 07:41:19 cwdoh has joined #webapps 07:41:41 q+ What does make service worker better than a wrapper of XHR in the content? 07:41:41 mnot: de-dup in http-caches. This could solve it. I really like the way this is going. It's coolness. 07:41:44 q- bryan 07:41:46 Soonho has joined #webapps 07:41:50 bryan: Service workers can't use XHR? 07:41:59 bryan: what else can't they use? 07:42:01 q+ 07:42:22 Alex: It's limited to much fewer things you think (all sync stuff is blocked) 07:42:44 avk: why not just remove the sync-bit? 07:42:57 q? 07:43:05 Alex: we could entertain that. We didn't go that direction. 07:43:53 Alex: think about a worker with all sync-stuff removed (with importScript as the exception) 07:44:03 bryan: So, it can't be used to build offline apps? 07:44:23 Alex: No. 07:44:43 ... You can handle request in any way you like, you can postMessage, you can manage storage locations, etc. 07:44:46 q? 07:45:05 chaals: the app can still use XHR, of course. It's just not in service worker. 07:45:07 q- 07:45:18 q- 07:45:26 Tomoyuki1 has joined #webapps 07:45:37 heycam`: Can you stream a response back from the service worker? 07:45:43 Alex: No answer to that now. 07:45:49 audible sigh from slightlyoff 07:45:55 ... Seems like we need something like Streams...?? 07:46:10 -Shenzhen 07:46:11 IA_WebApps()7:00PM has ended 07:46:11 Attendees were +1.503.264.aaaa, [IPcaller], Shenzhen, +1.503.264.aabb, James_Craig, Rich_Schwerdtfeger 07:46:13 RRSAgent, make minutes 07:46:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith 07:46:16 Weird to say no to XHR based on a theoretical fetch API but say this here slightlyoff 07:46:27 Ted: [muted] 07:46:58 ... Fetch vs. XHR: XHR is platform for http-requests. Fetch is the way for how the network requests stuff. 07:46:58 richt has joined #webapps 07:47:08 Alex: XHR != fetch 07:47:09 Zeke has joined #webapps 07:47:28 Ted: seems like a terrible approach to have both. 07:47:39 yes! 07:47:42 was about to say that = ) 07:47:52 cwdoh_ has joined #webapps 07:47:52 richt_ has joined #webapps 07:48:00 ken has joined #webapps 07:48:04 Jonas: XHR doesn't have a great way to represent requests (not just response) and stuff for CORS. 07:48:26 adrianba has joined #webapps 07:48:35 richt has joined #webapps 07:48:36 paul: How does service worker work "upwords"? 07:49:03 q? 07:49:04 Marcus_Altman has joined #webapps 07:49:05 Alex: whichever core capabilities are plumbed into it. For example other services that could be put into it. 07:49:29 ... Alarms, etc., another service layer for the web. For things that don't need UI. 07:50:02 dayang has joined #webapps 07:50:17 Mohammed_ has left #webapps 07:50:28 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:50:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ 07:50:38 richt has joined #webapps 07:50:42 Toshiya has joined #webapps 07:50:46 mizuman has joined #webapps 07:51:13 saki has joined #webapps 07:51:43 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 07:55:16 johnny has joined #webapps 07:56:27 tao has joined #webapps 07:57:37 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 07:57:44 johnny_ has joined #webapps 07:58:43 jjj has joined #webapps 08:00:39 johnny__ has joined #webapps 08:01:54 hoyang has joined #webapps 08:05:48 Tomoyuki has joined #webapps 08:06:32 Tomoyuki1 has joined #webapps 08:07:10 csjung has joined #webapps 08:08:31 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 08:09:53 nkic has joined #webapps 08:10:40 kinuko has joined #webapps 08:12:22 aizu has joined #webapps 08:12:30 denis_ has joined #webapps 08:13:25 Tomoyuki has joined #webapps 08:14:30 minami has joined #webapps 08:15:37 btoews has joined #webapps 08:15:50 byungjung has joined #webapps 08:16:24 saki has joined #webapps 08:17:01 Toshiya has joined #webapps 08:17:35 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 08:18:06 Toshiya_ has joined #webapps 08:19:00 Toshiya has joined #webapps 08:19:08 ken has joined #webapps 08:19:20 myakura has joined #webapps 08:19:26 a12u has joined #webapps 08:19:38 Marcus_Altman has joined #webapps 08:19:46 paul has joined #webapps 08:19:54 RRSAgent, make minutes 08:19:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html abarsto 08:19:56 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 08:20:30 dennisdmac has joined #webapps 08:20:34 Toshiya has joined #webapps 08:20:54 bryan has joined #webapps 08:21:10 Toshiya__ has joined #webapps 08:21:23 Tomoyuki has left #webapps 08:21:24 Scribe: Travis_ 08:21:29 heycam` has joined #webapps 08:21:30 ScribeNick: Travis_ 08:21:32 Jirka has joined #webapps 08:21:34 nikos has joined #webapps 08:21:46 aizu has joined #webapps 08:21:52 saki_ has joined #webapps 08:21:55 satakagi has joined #webapps 08:22:09 dyang has joined #webapps 08:22:32 btoews has joined #webapps 08:22:33 hoyang has joined #webapps 08:22:36 Toshiya_ has joined #webapps 08:22:41 saki__ has joined #webapps 08:22:48 Travis__ has joined #webapps 08:22:53 mete has joined #webapps 08:23:08 Travis has joined #webapps 08:23:15 Topic: Streams 08:23:30 Toshiya_ has joined #webapps 08:23:31 http://www.w3.org/TR/streams-api/ -> WD published 5-Oct-2013 08:23:32 08:23:46 saki___ has joined #webapps 08:23:52 jungkees has joined #webapps 08:23:59 Daniel_Austin has joined #WebApps 08:24:05 mizuman has joined #webapps 08:24:16 Topic: XHR and Progress Events 08:24:23 aboyet has joined #webapps 08:24:58 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/xhr-1/Overview.html 08:25:08 dezell has joined #webapps 08:25:23 darobin has joined #webapps 08:25:32 naka has joined #webapps 08:25:32 jungkees: looking at XHR1 08:25:38 ... in spec history section 08:25:52 Lachy has joined #webapps 08:25:58 ... some features left out of the living standard... 08:26:16 ... fetching data uris and anonymous flag 08:26:20 ijongche_ has joined #webapps 08:26:35 ... some behaviors are not compatible 08:26:48 edoyle has joined #webapps 08:26:57 jungkees.github.io/XMLHttpRequest-test 08:27:07 johnny has joined #webapps 08:27:21 jungkees: looking at test cases in W3C test repo 08:27:29 ... current status of browser implementation 08:27:35 http://jungkees.github.io/XMLHttpRequest-test/ 08:27:37 ... covers 95%+ of spec 08:27:42 tobie has joined #webapps 08:27:45 ... compat numbers are 50-60% 08:27:58 ... now filing bugs with relevant implementations 08:28:05 ... path to interop and CR. 08:28:09 Toshiya has joined #webapps 08:28:12 ... this is our current status. 08:28:33 Toshiya has joined #webapps 08:28:42 ... we have ~11 issues in bug list. 08:28:44 <_nikos_office> _nikos_office has joined #webapps 08:28:54 dong has joined #webapps 08:28:54 ... only 1/2 are issues we need to solve for L1 XHR spec 08:29:07 ... (1 or 2) not 1/2 08:29:12 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 08:29:14 richt has joined #webapps 08:29:30 jungkees: One of these 21650: 08:29:57 dopi has joined #webapps 08:30:06 ... xhr has a limitation in responseType==document 08:30:16 yang has joined #webapps 08:30:21 ... other issues are related to bleeding edge features that can be handled in next version. 08:30:28 quit 08:30:34 Art: are you marking the bugs for v1 and v2? 08:30:49 jinsh has joined #webapps 08:31:08 AndroUser has joined #webapps 08:31:10 jungkees: having an issue with the alignment with the fetch spec. 08:31:31 ... need to discuss how to handle referencing the fetch spec in the W3C spec. 08:31:41 ... not sure how to deal with that. 08:31:55 chaals: not a technical issue, just a doc/process spec. 08:32:14 jungkees: we are referencing WHATWG at the moment. 08:32:22 ... we should be ready for LC soon. 08:32:29 mizuman_ has joined #webapps 08:32:46 ... during LC we can resolve the issue with responseType==document and focus on browser interop and bugs. 08:32:53 chaals: what are the implementation plans. 08:33:38 jungkees: some interop differences: one browser fires "progress" other's don't. 08:34:07 ... there are some subtle differences. 08:34:33 abarsto: Are there any tests for v2 (in the list of test from the w3c site) 08:34:37 ? 08:35:03 jungkees: All of the tests are based on the living standard. We will see which will drop for the v1 spec. 08:36:33 adrianba: On why don't browsers fix these bugs: these are the set of "interop" issues we talk about for a long time. Do these interop issues really matter to web compat? 08:37:34 kevin-li has joined #webapps 08:39:02 Travis_ has joined #webapps 08:39:07 Robin: We can identify the best and brightest tests. 08:39:22 kinuko has joined #webapps 08:39:36 rniwa has joined #webapps 08:39:48 Robin: Might be worth looking into library code (jQuery) to prioritize bugs to fix. 08:40:17 JonathanJ has joined #webapps 08:40:19 abarsto: Will Robin/James work with jungkees to help get these tests prepared? 08:40:52 s/help get these tests/prepared/help identify those tests that are mandatory for CR/ 08:41:01 adrianba: To Robin on the question of interop bugs worked around in jQuery: is the 'we' the working group? 08:41:18 Robin: I think they're likely working around real problems. 08:41:33 ... if this delays the spec a little while, then OK. 08:41:59 richt has joined #webapps 08:42:05 adrianba: still trying to understand the priority. I think this is about having a good spec. 08:42:25 ... these tests don't need to be fixed at the same rate as implementations move forward. 08:42:46 JonathanJ1 has joined #webapps 08:42:58 q+ Paul 08:43:06 ... I think we can look at the spec at a high-level and say that it's "implementable" and not have to hold up CR. 08:43:36 dka has joined #webapps 08:43:52 jungkees: The core editors came to the conclusions that the issues shown in test cases must be resolved because they are a major part of the Fetch behavior. 08:44:28 ... without resolving this, XHR authors may have to work around bugs. 08:44:40 chaals: there are different authors for the spec. 08:45:08 q+ Daniel_Austin 08:45:21 ... implementers are one categories. Authors want to look at the spec and write to that. 08:45:46 ... may be nice to have the spec speak to the reliability of certain features in the spec. 08:46:36 q+ James 08:46:44 o_O 08:46:49 (need bigger O) 08:46:53 q- Paul 08:47:00 ... it's nice to have the next version coming so that we can look forward to it's more specific requirements. 08:47:06 virginie has joined #webapps 08:47:40 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 08:47:50 paul: I think robin is saying that web devs have seen issues, and that we can use libraries to find what the pain points are. 08:48:00 q- Daniel_Austin 08:48:26 annevk: ｏ_Ｏ 08:48:34 Daniel (ebay): Since XHR came out, it's not just browser user agents, but having a reliable spec is good. 08:48:55 jgraham: post re-writing the spec to be more vague is a really bad idea. 08:49:12 naka_ has joined #webapps 08:49:17 plh has joined #webapps 08:50:36 hober: nice 08:50:43 q- James 08:51:03 q? 08:51:10 q+ 08:51:18 darobin: could just remove the conformance section 08:51:24 darobin: would also make it shorter 08:51:44 richt has joined #webapps 08:52:04 annevk darobin: we could start using other RFC 2119 terms like "UAs MIGHT AS WELL ..." 08:52:26 hober: MUST GO TO REC SO YOU MAY IMPLEMENT 08:52:39 Toshiya has joined #webapps 08:52:40 saki has joined #webapps 08:52:52 hober: I think you mean RFC 6919 https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6919.txt 08:53:00 dong has joined #webapps 08:53:06 jgraham: The right way of solving the problem is to use a test suite to show authors how reliable and interoperable is the spec. 08:53:14 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 08:53:18 ... I don't think the right solution is to change the spec. 08:53:21 adrianba: I agree. 08:53:22 kennyluck has joined #webapps 08:53:28 RFC 6919 08:53:29 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON'T)" hahaha, forgot about that RFC 08:53:29 q? 08:53:43 ack adrianba 08:53:49 ... it seems odd to update the spec according to where implementations are at some moment in time. 08:53:59 ... via MUST to SHOULD update. 08:54:08 Marcus_Altman___ has joined #webapps 08:54:32 chaals: well, we shouldn't change must to should just to squeak out of a process requirements. 08:54:37 abarsto: but it's his favorite proposal 08:54:41 abarsto: he makes it at least once a year 08:54:47 ... going from test->spec can be challenging. 08:55:10 jgraham: historically we've done a poor job of having a test suite. 08:55:24 ... we need to work on test suite results and how we present them. 08:55:48 ... as implementation run the tests we can gather the data more reliably. 08:56:11 adrianba: we have some places where we want to correlate this data, like in Web Platform Docs. 08:57:15 chaals: my basic goal is to get what is needed now, and not wait while we develop our test suites and tools. 08:57:17 nkic_ has joined #webapps 08:57:30 jungkees: Initial intention was to exclude features not running well across the board. 08:57:56 ... our findings uncovered that some things are running fine in 2 of the browsers. 08:58:22 ... the core editors found that these are the pimitives of the fetching of resources. 08:58:28 saki_ has joined #webapps 08:58:37 ... we want to keep going with current set of features. 08:58:37 q? 08:58:50 chaals: What happens now? LC and long wait? 08:59:07 jungkees: and working on test suites until CR exit. Want to start LC now. 08:59:27 Toshiya has joined #webapps 08:59:50 ... we don't see too many issues in the spec itself, but want to focus on solving implementation gaps. 09:00:15 ... perhaps Q2 of next year we can review the bugs to see how browser interop is improving. 09:00:35 ... interop will improve, libraries will be easier to maintain, etc. 09:00:42 ... that's our current viewpoint. 09:01:23 richt has joined #webapps 09:01:45 paulc: Q on original stats: only 50% of the results give consistent results... at least 2 browsers pass each of them? 09:02:02 igarashi_ has joined #webapps 09:02:57 chaals: what is the intersection for at least two implementations? 09:03:55 israelh: how do we prioritize? Put my high priority tests together, then the bugs that don't impact most sites, this could work. 09:04:13 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:04:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html xiaoqian 09:04:28 chaals: We could take the spec to the director and show that there are some places with dragons, so beware, but we need better coverage than we have now. 09:04:45 satakagi has joined #webapps 09:04:49 jungkees: Given major implementations, pass ratio is much higher (than 50%). 09:05:09 ... we've tested three major tests: blink, gecko, trident. 09:05:30 dong has joined #webapps 09:05:40 paulc: my personal opinion: we'll never get a spec published if we expect 100% interop. 09:06:05 ... if this spec is to goto CR, what is the exit criteria. 09:06:34 ... the WG needs to define what it believes is necessary. 09:06:54 +1 to Paul's comments 09:07:16 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 09:07:20 http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/ProgressEvents 09:07:28 chaals: how much progress are we making on progress events? 09:07:38 jungkees: Looking at progress events test results. 09:08:34 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 09:08:56 ... waiting on bug fixes for Blink to improve the test results. 09:10:09 ... if we do have concensus, we need to try to get it on the list. 09:10:17 ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish PR of Progress Events 09:10:18 Created ACTION-702 - Start cfc to publish pr of progress events [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-18]. 09:10:57 jungkees: We _could_ add more examples to the spec from other use-cases. 09:11:09 ... if not required I'd prefer not to. 09:11:16 ijongche_ has joined #webapps 09:11:23 ACTION: barstow work with AvK and Jungkee re the Attribution of the Progress Events spec 09:11:23 Created ACTION-703 - Work with avk and jungkee re the attribution of the progress events spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-11-18]. 09:11:50 nsakai2 has joined #webapps 09:11:51 israelh has joined #webapps 09:12:13 richt has joined #webapps 09:12:44 birtles has joined #webapps 09:12:47 Topic: WebIDL 09:12:47 dong has joined #webapps 09:13:19 richt has joined #webapps 09:13:25 heycam`: Test suite progress? 09:13:26 krit has joined #webapps 09:13:59 ... I started working on tests for webidl v1. These have been reviewed. 09:14:12 ... I now need to revise tests that have issues. 09:14:45 ... I thought I did a fairly complete job, but it would be good to hear from the people who did the reviews. 09:15:10 abarsto: 5 reviewers did 20%. 09:15:46 richt has joined #webapps 09:16:06 abarsto: what are we going to consider implementations? 09:16:13 denis has joined #webapps 09:16:27 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 09:17:05 Toshiya_ has joined #webapps 09:17:30 plh: I recall two levels of implementations--first to find implementations (in other specs) of each feature, and 2nd to build up the test suite. 09:18:57 heycam`: The tests use features that are available in other specs. 09:19:24 q+ Is Dom's webidl checker considered an implementation re CR exit criteria? 09:20:10 jonas: two things I know that are programmatic. 09:20:14 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 09:20:18 ... arrays - people wonder what this means. 09:20:40 heycam`: generally, people are not happy with array-ness. 09:21:44 ... one test used messageport arrayness, but managed to convince hixie to change it. 09:21:57 denis_ has joined #webapps 09:22:01 jonas: my proposal was to just use JS arrays or frozen arrays. 09:22:03 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 09:22:24 ... nodelist and other live-lists may just stay as host-objects. 09:22:38 ... we shouldn't add more ways of replicating those behaviors. 09:22:56 ... otherwise, we should just use iterable objects (ES6 syntax) 09:23:06 NodeList can still be an iterable 09:23:11 nikos has joined #webapps 09:23:21 heycam`: to defend [] syntax: to handle nodelist-like objects. 09:23:34 q? 09:23:36 ... if we don't like that concept, than it doesn't make sense to allow/expose it. 09:24:13 dong has joined #webapps 09:24:21 richt_ has joined #webapps 09:24:24 heycam`: There's still a bunch of new things to align with ES6 features (iterables, proper classes) 09:24:39 For NodeList we can add @@iterator from ES6 09:25:19 heycam`: At the Mozilla summit a few things were discussed: JS-IDL, what's left to finish. 09:25:34 ... for JSIDL - I don't really have the time to re-write for that. 09:25:39 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:25:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith 09:25:51 ... better use of my time to find/fix the major problems wrong with WebIDL. 09:25:57 kinuko has joined #webapps 09:26:00 ... seven items were discussed 09:26:13 ... 1 - typearray, promises, etc., stuff that moves in ES6 09:26:33 ... 2 - no custom exception objects; building it in. 09:26:51 i/jungkees: looking at XHR1/scribe: Travis/ 09:26:53 ... 3 - proper ES classes, maybe replace interface with class 09:26:57 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:26:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith 09:27:11 ... 4 - deprecating indexed and named properties and stuff that required proxies. 09:27:18 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 09:27:25 ... 5 - fixing array-ness 09:27:31 ... and other stuff. 09:27:49 ... with some new focus time, I can get after these. 09:27:59 chaals: done by Christmas. 09:28:20 richt has joined #webapps 09:28:21 ... ? 09:28:30 heycam`: Any other high-priority items to finish? 09:28:35 dennisdmac has joined #webapps 09:29:05 jonas; can we get rid of overloading? 09:29:19 ... with union types why do we need it? 09:29:33 s/jonas;/jonas:/ 09:29:33 ... other than drawImage? 09:29:38 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 09:29:44 Alex: WebGL? 09:30:09 i/We can identify the best and brightest tests/scribe: Travis_/ 09:30:17 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:30:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith 09:30:29 heycam`: overloading is the most complex part of the spec. It would be nice to remove it... 09:31:03 abarsto: heycam` can you draft up a message on what's next? 09:31:11 mounir_ has joined #webapps 09:31:12 richt_ has joined #webapps 09:31:26 heycam`: need to update the list of "what's new" to aggregate into the history of the spec. 09:31:50 WebSocket API uses overloading for send() 09:32:00 ... Do we want to hold up v1 of the spec on some of the larger issues? 09:33:58 Travis: I don't want to implement stuff that's going to change. 09:34:17 heycam`: If you stick to the spec + bugs + list of things I mentioned, you should be safe. 09:34:58 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:34:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html abarsto 09:35:10 richt has joined #webapps 09:35:37 Present+ Dirk_Schulze, Rik_Cabanier 09:35:43 hoyang1 has joined #webapps 09:35:49 cwdoh has joined #webapps 09:35:52 bryan has joined #webapps 09:36:00 hoyang1 has joined #webapps 09:36:33 scribeNick: chaals 09:36:36 Scribe+ chaals 09:36:47 hoyang2 has joined #webapps 09:36:54 cabanier has joined #webapps 09:36:59 Topic: Readonly/ writeable interfaces 09:37:18 DS: We have interfaces for SVG / CSS DOM - there is readonly and writeable versions. 09:37:40 … readonly has no setters, attributes are readonly. Writeable have setters, and attributes are not readonly 09:38:14 DS: Can't do that in WebIDL. Had a short discussion on the issue. 2 possibilities; inherited structure, or have 2 interfaces. 09:38:33 … for nihersited structure, the writeable version would inherit from the readonly version. 09:38:57 Travis: Do you need the interfaceto swap between readonly/writeable, or is a given object always going to be one or the other? 09:38:59 cwdoh has joined #webapps 09:39:05 … We had objects that changes in IE 09:39:18 DS: The interface doesn't change between readonly / writeable. 09:39:31 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 09:39:58 http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/geometry/#DOMRect 09:39:59 kinuko has joined #webapps 09:40:17 JG: Readonly is not user-modifiable, but the values may be changed? 09:40:20 DS: Correct. 09:40:50 DS: DOMRect is writeable, DOMrectReadonly isn't, so writeable inherits from it. 09:41:05 … which means that things inherited do weird stuff @@ 09:41:26 … solution could be to rename rDOMRectReadonly so people don't think it is always readonly. 09:41:36 q+ heycam` 09:41:51 … other solution is use typedef and different interfaces and specify if you have a readonly or writeable version 09:42:07 q- heycam` 09:42:08 Cam: renaming sounds sensible, compared to duplicating interfaces 09:42:19 cwdoh_ has joined #webapps 09:42:22 JG: View has another meaning - arrayBufferView is writeable. 09:42:31 …bad choice of colours 09:42:53 DS: The iidea of calling it that was so people wouldn't get bad ideas. 09:43:00 JG: but confusing is bad. 09:43:09 DS: Right. Whey we are discussing. 09:43:46 AvK: Instanceof doesn't work with cross-@@ and isn't good practice accoring to JS spec editor. 09:43:59 Dino: It's all good. 09:44:28 Travis: Can you give some use cases for DOMRect for context? 09:44:30 taocai has left #webapps 09:44:31 kinuko1 has joined #webapps 09:44:39 DS: SVG DOM is a bit complicated. 09:44:42 MikeSmith, there was nobody in the room who could talk about current state of Stream proposals. so we moved on to XHR/PE 09:44:44 09:44:47 btoews has joined #webapps 09:44:49 var e 09:45:01 … you have different attributes. a rect in SVG is one element, you can test its attributes. 09:45:04 e.x 09:45:12 … e.g. the x property. 09:45:13 e.x.animVal baseVal 09:45:46 … these are different kinds of objects. BaseVal stay set, animVal includes current value under current animation. 09:45:56 … other examples in CSS Object model 09:46:05 Cam: Also clientRect…. 09:46:22 … maybe not a great example, could return a plain object. 09:46:31 DS: Think that was the use case I was thinking of. 09:47:04 Cam: Want to avoid a proliferation of rectangle objects. We have SVG rectangles, clientRect, and maybe more APIs that want rectangles. 09:47:19 … would be goo to have a single (or dual) rectangle interface. 09:47:25 Travis: How does SVG do it today? 09:47:38 Cam: With a single interface and a flag to say if it is readonly or not. 09:48:10 … it's writeable in the intereface and setting it when the reaonly flag is set will throw. 09:48:51 Travis: Saying readonly is to say when you never want to allow writing to something. Think in this case it would be OK to have 2 rectangles (which is better than dozens) - one readonly, one writeable. 09:49:21 JG: Sort of what I was going to ask. Where you have DOMRectAbstract and the 2 types of rectangle inherit from it but you never pass one directly. 09:49:32 … Not hugely pretty, but would allow people to check @@@ 09:49:59 DS: Would not share anything with the inherited classes. Also, there are multiple interfaces like this in SVG. 09:50:13 … that are currently incompatible with WebIDL. 09:50:16 richt has joined #webapps 09:50:29 Cam: Not that you cannot express this in the SVG spec, can add process. But people don't love it. 09:50:41 DS: People objected and said it is not possible… but is implementable. 09:50:43 richt_ has joined #webapps 09:51:10 Cam: Thinks what they said was it is impossible to have a base class with getter/setter, and a derived class that has the getter and no setter. 09:51:43 JS: Trying to do that in JS, it isn't possible - this is a limitation of javascript. So the base has to have a getter and the derived class a getter/settter. 09:52:01 DS: So we need to define a getter separately for the defined class? 09:52:13 kinuko1 has joined #webapps 09:52:15 JS: 2 qusestions. What do we write in WebIDL, what can you do in Javascript? 09:52:28 … in JS you need a property on the derived intereface with a getter and a setter 09:52:31 nkic has joined #webapps 09:52:47 Cam: Not a huge burden. But WebIDL has a features where you an avoid having the extra getter. 09:52:57 DS: So, should we continue with the inherited part? 09:53:07 … and whatcolour should we paint it? 09:53:17 … not "readonly", "not View"... 09:53:35 [we drop the naming issue] 09:53:59 JS: If inherit describes a property re-using the getter from the base class it sounds like a feature created to solve this problem, and seemingly it does. 09:54:06 … so yes. Use it. 09:54:34 DS: Thought the question is whether to have a heirarchy of DOMRect, not just for getters specifically. 09:54:42 s/DS:/Cam:/ 09:54:47 Cam: Seems sensible 09:54:56 AvK: Is clientRect live? 09:54:57 [no] 09:55:16 AvK: So they seem two different things. If one is live and another not, they are not so related. 09:55:33 DS: The ability to make something live doesn't force it to be live, so I don't think there is a real difference. 09:55:42 richt__ has joined #webapps 09:56:00 AvK: For static object you don't need to use getters, because you're not returning internal state. That would be much more sane. 09:56:10 DS: DOMRect only has values...@@@@ 09:56:25 annevk: just "property" 09:56:29 AvK: You can define objects in two ways - getter/setter or (not) 09:56:39 … That alternative might be better. 09:56:39 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 09:56:43 s/[we drop the naming issue]/Let's not name it now./ 09:56:43 slightlyoff: k 09:56:46 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 09:57:02 Travis: Starting to sound like arrayness problems for WebIDL - arrays that are sometimes static, or maybe not... 09:57:04 slightlyoff: so how do you distinguish that from a getter/setter property? 09:57:17 q+ 09:57:29 … if we were ok doing that in WebIDL for arrays, seems OK to have an object that has a flag to describe if it is readonly or not? 09:57:32 … if it works... 09:57:43 Cam: But we want to get rid of arrays with internal flags too. 09:58:11 edoyle has joined #webapps 09:58:12 Travis: Agree, but for the SVG stuff, I don't think there is a problem except that we want to consolidate everything of the same kinds. 09:58:18 Cam: Think we do. 09:58:34 DS: I have no problem with it, but there were objections from e.g. Webapps 09:58:49 JS: Wasthere objection to a subclass that is writeable? 09:58:51 DS: No 09:59:00 JS: So we could move forward on that 09:59:03 Travis: WfM 09:59:16 AvK: If we don't need getters, we should avoid using them. 09:59:22 … have a data property instead. 09:59:24 richt has joined #webapps 09:59:30 DS: Don't have dictionaries 09:59:34 AvK: Doesn't matter 09:59:41 Cam: That would be the WebIDL way to do this. 10:00:06 … If we make a @@@@@ for an unchanging object, you can use the dictionary version to get. 10:00:17 … We don't want to have a new version changing values all the time. 10:00:29 ack slightlyoff 10:01:02 Alex: By default WebIDL uses getters/setters, whereas javascript uses properties. Seems Anne was saying start with the obvious thing from ajvascript. 10:01:30 … not clear that the base class and then setting a flag to force readonly, is a good way. Not natural in Javascript. 10:01:43 s/ajvascript/javascript/ 10:01:50 … Concerned that there is a performance argument I would like to understand 10:02:19 johnny has joined #webapps 10:02:20 Lachy has joined #webapps 10:02:33 Trav: Getter argument is that the platform should not update a data value from underneath the JS code. If the value of a property is 5, it shouldn't change to 6 without you knowing. 10:02:58 … for that you have tohave an accessor. DOM attributes are that way, but makes sense that the workd is oriented to getters/setters. 10:03:10 +1 readonly descends from readable/writeable 10:03:16 AR: But the single point of truth being the object seems like a broken assumption 10:03:34 JS: Problem is talking about a wide range of objects - lots of different behaviours. 10:03:36 mizuman has joined #webapps 10:03:42 s/the object/something behind the object/ 10:03:52 … many objects returning would not make sense with data properties. 10:04:12 … seems in many cases but not all getters make sense. Maybe not as often as we use them. 10:04:37 … Exception objects are one of the few objects with properties, and had getters. That'sthe pattern, but people don't use them much. 10:04:59 … If we can return dictionary objects, inertia is why we keep using interfaces everywhere. 10:05:31 Cam: With objects, you use a different construct to get data properties instead of accessors. You can't have a data property without devolving to prose. 10:05:40 … Makes sense to use a data property... 10:06:22 Alex: What's behind the curtain. If there is an IDL that claims to say what there is in JS, that doesn't seem to hold. But if there is a value where JS isn't privy to it, that would not be a fair assumption. 10:06:48 Cam: If functions that implement getters/setters have access to other properties... 10:06:53 Alex: What are they? 10:07:00 dsinger has joined #webapps 10:07:02 Cam, Alex: @@@ 10:07:04 cabanier has joined #webapps 10:07:19 [scribe missed this] 10:07:56 Ryo: You can do something as if ther is a private state and getters/setters use that. 10:08:00 johnny_ has joined #webapps 10:08:10 … so they aren't all that rettible. So there are elements where it makes sense. 10:08:36 Alex: Sure. But to implement a class for this I would only have getters/setters as an exceptional process. 10:08:43 … would support @@@@@@@ 10:09:05 ...adding properties to itnerfaces in WebIDL 10:09:12 Cam: For these objects, data properties are more liekly to make sense that things in the DOM that need to do computation or return non-simple values. 10:09:27 shan has joined #webapps 10:09:28 … depends on the APIs you are talking about which makes more sense. 10:09:46 richt_ has joined #webapps 10:10:27 [should we keep going...?] 10:11:14 JS: Seems like if we are going with getters and setters, inheritance is the way to go, but think we're not looking closely enough at using data properties instead. 10:11:34 … Don't know for the specific case of Rectangles. 10:12:05 Cam: Think the proposal was to have both the dictionary and the data properties. 10:12:15 [scribe may have recorded that backwards] 10:12:43 kurosawa_ has joined #webapps 10:12:44 both the dictionary and the interfaces 10:12:54 RRSAgent, make minutes 10:12:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-minutes.html xiaoqian 10:13:23 tobie has joined #webapps 10:13:27 mete has left #webapps 10:13:40 [adjourned] 10:13:56 aboyet has left #webapps 10:14:02 Toshiya has joined #webapps 10:14:23 mizuman has joined #webapps 10:14:33 saki has joined #webapps 10:16:28 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 10:16:44 ken has joined #webapps 10:17:46 glenn has joined #webapps 10:20:57 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 10:22:35 richt has joined #webapps 10:23:10 richt_ has joined #webapps 10:29:06 richt__ has joined #webapps 10:30:04 dka has joined #webapps 10:31:37 glenn has joined #webapps 10:44:21 darobin has joined #webapps 11:24:59 mizuman has joined #webapps 11:27:16 ken has joined #webapps 11:30:03 myakura has joined #webapps 11:34:11 skddc has joined #webapps 11:37:43 skddc_ has joined #webapps 11:40:37 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 11:49:48 AndroUser2 has joined #webapps 12:03:16 johnny has joined #webapps 12:17:24 marcosc has joined #webapps 12:32:31 Zakim has left #webapps 12:33:56 smaug has joined #webapps 13:00:32 marcosc has joined #webapps 13:14:28 hoyang has joined #webapps 13:15:55 smaug has joined #webapps 13:16:25 Toshiya has joined #webapps 13:17:14 hoyang has joined #webapps 13:31:15 marcosc has joined #webapps 13:48:52 smaug has joined #webapps 13:51:44 cwdoh has joined #webapps 13:59:51 marcosc has joined #webapps 14:04:05 davidb has joined #webapps 14:04:27 stakagi has joined #webapps 14:04:33 hoyang has joined #webapps 14:17:28 karl has joined #webapps 14:19:57 cwdoh has joined #webapps 14:20:49 ijongcheol has joined #webapps 14:28:20 cwdoh_ has joined #webapps 14:29:21 denis has joined #webapps 14:33:00 marcosc has joined #webapps 14:37:28 rniwa has joined #webapps 14:42:36 cwdoh has joined #webapps 14:47:38 lgombos_ has joined #webapps 14:53:52 Toshiya has joined #webapps 14:56:27 ken has joined #webapps 15:14:50 ken has joined #webapps 15:29:42 fjh has joined #webapps 15:48:53 dsinger has joined #webapps 15:53:49 cwdoh has joined #webapps 16:03:48 karl has joined #webapps 16:14:22 myakura has joined #webapps 16:27:19 karl has joined #webapps 16:30:36 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 16:42:16 jsbell has joined #webapps 16:47:08 smaug has joined #webapps 17:12:04 lmcliste_ has joined #webapps 17:33:24 jcraig has joined #webapps 18:15:23 fjh has joined #webapps 18:35:19 Lachy has joined #webapps 18:50:07 lgombos has joined #webapps 19:09:25 myakura has joined #webapps 19:32:55 lgombos has joined #webapps 19:39:44 davidb has joined #webapps 19:45:26 jcraig has joined #webapps 19:59:28 glenn_ has joined #webapps 20:13:56 ken has joined #webapps 20:14:02 myakura has joined #webapps 20:36:08 lgombos_ has joined #webapps 20:52:00 lgombos has joined #webapps 21:14:26 myakura has joined #webapps 21:42:04 ken has joined #webapps 22:11:00 edoyle has joined #webapps 22:14:51 myakura has joined #webapps 22:23:26 fjh has joined #webapps 22:24:35 ken has joined #webapps 22:36:19 myakura has joined #webapps 22:57:30 marcosc has joined #webapps 23:08:08 lgombos has joined #webapps 23:42:34 marcosc has joined #webapps 23:44:49 lgombos_ has joined #webapps 23:49:54 darobin has joined #webapps 23:56:01 johnny has joined #webapps 00:06:39 glenn has joined #webapps 00:11:47 myakura has joined #webapps 00:11:50 johnny_ has joined #webapps 00:12:56 darobin has joined #webapps 00:15:27 yang has joined #webapps 00:18:44 kennyluck has joined #webapps 00:21:28 masatakayakura has joined #webapps 00:22:46 marcosc has joined #webapps 00:25:37 darobin has joined #webapps 00:28:16 glenn has joined #webapps 00:33:59 Lachy has joined #webapps 00:35:12 sgalineau has joined #webapps 00:35:21 cwdoh has joined #webapps 00:36:35 glenn_ has joined #webapps 00:38:28 tao has joined #webapps 00:41:19 cwdoh has joined #webapps 00:42:29 tcai has joined #webapps 00:42:46 Takahiro_ has joined #webapps 00:42:50 Marcus_Altman___ has joined #webapps 00:43:47 glenn has joined #webapps 00:44:48 Arno has joined #webapps 00:45:22 nkic has joined #webapps 00:47:14 abarsto has joined #webapps 00:48:42 Lachy has joined #webapps 00:49:40 dsinger has joined #webapps 00:52:27 mete has joined #webapps 00:52:39 dom has joined #webapps 00:53:01 dsinger_ has joined #webapps 00:55:18 johnny has joined #webapps 00:55:37 dsinger_ has left #webapps 00:55:42 RRSAgent, bye 00:55:42 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-actions.rdf : 00:55:42 ACTION: dimitri reply to Ryosuke's comments re Custom Element as part of LC comments [1] 00:55:42 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-irc#T01-57-35 00:55:42 ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish LCWD of DOM Parsing and Serialization [2] 00:55:42 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-irc#T01-59-39 00:55:42 ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish PR of Progress Events [3] 00:55:42 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-irc#T09-10-17 00:55:42 ACTION: barstow work with AvK and Jungkee re the Attribution of the Progress Events spec [4] 00:55:42 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-webapps-irc#T09-11-23